look at forum regerstrations enough said granted it doesnt = what subs will be but theres goign to be a public beta anyways o yea we seen orcs too so not goblin areas only HA wrong again
Don't forget the skellies!
Seriously though...
It's not that big of a deal if they want to do minimal marketing/PR for their game. What isn't o.k. is a lack of professionalism. Now before anyone starts jumping up and down and says... company x didn't do y either. Makes no difference who does it. It's still bad.
Things like NOT updating your Official web-stie with current information. Especially the only specific Release Date EVER given out for the game in it's entire development history. (And no, putting it in the news section of the forums is NOT the same. Come on people, this isn't that hard to use a bit of common sense here. Just ask yourself... If it was my game, would I put the Release Date on the Home Page? Pretty sure there is only one HONEST answer to that question).
Things like NOT updating the FAQs for features that have been known to not make it for Release, or are cut entirely for quite a long while now. Just one example... Prestige classes: that was said quite awhile ago that won't make release... still in the FAQ. There are more, but you get the idea. Sure, it's quite expected that the FAQ will lag behind in this respect... but when it's months, and some much older than that... then it's not very professional.
Things like NOT making any kind of comment about the re-scheduling of OPEN BETA... unless someone still thinks they will be making their previous schedule of "the open beta phase is scheduled to end early in December".
Things like NOT having any finalized information on Direct Download, Hardware Requirements, Billing, Subscription, etc.
Those to me add up to not being professional with your product. I don't care if you don't want to market traditionally. I don't care if you aren't that big of a company. I don't care what the excuse it... it is not asking too much to expect that a company conduct themselves in a professional manner. The same as I expect from any other company.
This rant will probably put me back on the troll label again... but so be it. It's fine to be a fan for a game, but it's also o.k. to expect the company to treat you will a bit of respect and professionalism. They need us a whole lot more than we need them.
I'd settle for some previews from CGM, IGN, Games Radar, Gamers Hell etc. The only thing i have been able to find that is even semi legit was the Italian MMORPG site preview and that was done in their office in a very controlled environment. Nope for a game that is supposedly releasing in a few weeks there are entirely too many BS flags up the flagpole. There is no way I would pay for this pig in a poke and that is assuming they can come up with a last minute way for N Americans to purchase.
digital download enough said
So you think a game is worth spending money on when they can't even find a distributor who has enough faith in the game to think it will sell. Funcom was able to find a distributor for AoC , yet Aventurine has to rely on some small advertising company in Greece for their European Distributor and no N American Distributor will touch the game. yeah that tells me pretty much all I need to know right there. Combined with no major game site previews ansd no sign of a open beta and all teh alarm bells are ringing off the wall on this one.
Combined with all that the poster before me pointed out I don't see ho anyone could have any faith whatsoever in the developer and the game. I been playing these games since the Ultima beta and all the warning signs of major turkey are branded all over Darkfall. No way I would send them a credit card number, look what happened with the poor saps who got mixed up with Dark and Light. But then the Dark and Light fanboys called me nothing but a troll too. Guess who had the last laugh there after Farlan/NPCube pulle dtheir crap.
Thanks but I am just going to watch this one till well after release, assuming they do manage some kind of release.
Well I'm pretty skeptical about this game. It promisses a lot and is gonna try to be a Quake MMO for hard core PvP. Based on recent releases of games that have disappointed I'm seeing a common tactic in games. No open beta and no NDA dropping till the day the game is released or an Open beta that is very controlled and limited. So from the people in the know, when does the NDA drop and When is open beta? I did some searching on the net and couldn't find a lot of beta leaked info which makes me concerned that the game is running a pretty small closed beta. Another area for concern.
No one knows....
That was really the end of the thread.
Do you know when the NDA will drop? No you do not.
Do you know when the open beta will start, if there is an open beta? No you do not.
the end.
Yes we know
at the latest
2009 - 01- 22
I wouldnt put too much stock into that date Darth. Didnt you learn already from the promised 08 release? By now you should know better.
There is a good chance there won't be an open beta. They are confident that they have fully tested the game and that open beta is unecessary. The only reason that there is the closed beta in the first place is to test different hardware specs utilized by gamers.
So confident in fact that theyve utilized AI to test along side actual people.
Fixed it for ya, I know you like to be accurate with your posts lol.
let me further fix it for you.
So confident in fact that theyve utilized Ai alongside Professional Testers.
There you go hoss. fixed.
Man you need an editor, but fixed for you again ^^.
Glad to help keep you accurate Arcken ^^
sorry had to fis from proffesional to professional. Which is the correct spelling since you mentioned being accrurate.
A preview from a site like IGN would make little difference. IGN seemed to like Warhammer Online a lot; but they still neglected to mention that the game's selling point was in fact, a huge lie that wasn't even close to completion both design wise and coding wise.
There is a small preview hosted by some creator of a sub standard web comic.
Even a free trial wouldn't exactly quell my skepticism, as they could easily perform the classic bait and switch technique so many others have done. Both WAR and AOC had great early areas.
Originally posted by Dullahan I'm so tired of a bunch of teenage retards by the thousands posting their opinions about Darkfall's success. Darkfall is not coming out in January. It has nothing more to offer than any mmo to date. They haven't come through on their promises and won't release on time. Get over it.
Hey! That's exactly how I feel! How did you read my mind like that? Are you a psychic?
I'm so tired of a bunch of teenage retards by the thousands posting their opinions about Darkfall's failure. Darkfall is coming out in January. It has more to offer than any mmo to date. They have come through on their promises and will release on time. Get over it.
Now hold on there partner. We don't know if they have delivered on all their promises yet as none of us have played the game. If you are talking about a promise of a release date... Well if you know the old saying... "If you throw enough STUFF at the wall, some of it will stick".
The game has had enough starts and stops over the years. In about 6 weeks we will see the result. Until that time I don;' know if they have "come through on their promises" or not. And neither do you unless you're one of the handful of people in the Beta.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'm so tired of a bunch of teenage retards by the thousands posting their opinions about Darkfall's failure. Darkfall is coming out in January. It has more to offer than any mmo to date. They have come through on their promises and will release on time. Get over it.
Umm....
That might be an appropriate post on Jan. 22nd, 2009... before that it's not any better than what those others were posting you were complaining about.
look at forum regerstrations enough said granted it doesnt = what subs will be but theres goign to be a public beta anyways o yea we seen orcs too so not goblin areas only HA wrong again
Don't forget the skellies!
Seriously though...
It's not that big of a deal if they want to do minimal marketing/PR for their game. What isn't o.k. is a lack of professionalism. Now before anyone starts jumping up and down and says... company x didn't do y either. Makes no difference who does it. It's still bad.
Things like NOT updating your Official web-stie with current information. Especially the only specific Release Date EVER given out for the game in it's entire development history. (And no, putting it in the news section of the forums is NOT the same. Come on people, this isn't that hard to use a bit of common sense here. Just ask yourself... If it was my game, would I put the Release Date on the Home Page? Pretty sure there is only one HONEST answer to that question).
Things like NOT updating the FAQs for features that have been known to not make it for Release, or are cut entirely for quite a long while now. Just one example... Prestige classes: that was said quite awhile ago that won't make release... still in the FAQ. There are more, but you get the idea. Sure, it's quite expected that the FAQ will lag behind in this respect... but when it's months, and some much older than that... then it's not very professional.
Things like NOT making any kind of comment about the re-scheduling of OPEN BETA... unless someone still thinks they will be making their previous schedule of "the open beta phase is scheduled to end early in December".
Things like NOT having any finalized information on Direct Download, Hardware Requirements, Billing, Subscription, etc.
Those to me add up to not being professional with your product. I don't care if you don't want to market traditionally. I don't care if you aren't that big of a company. I don't care what the excuse it... it is not asking too much to expect that a company conduct themselves in a professional manner. The same as I expect from any other company.
This rant will probably put me back on the troll label again... but so be it. It's fine to be a fan for a game, but it's also o.k. to expect the company to treat you will a bit of respect and professionalism. They need us a whole lot more than we need them.
Honestly why does it matter if they lack "professionalism or not?" They owe you NOTHING! You haven't paid this company one penny so it doesn't really matter what they do with their site or their faq now does it?
I'm so tired of a bunch of teenage retards by the thousands posting their opinions about Darkfall's failure. Darkfall is coming out in January. It has more to offer than any mmo to date. They have come through on their promises and will release on time. Get over it.
Well then, since you seem posess some exclusive knowledge as to why we have no right to be skeptical; by all means - enlighten us. With facts, please. Not the developer's song and dance we've all heard numerous times already.
As far as them owing us nothing; that's perfectly fine. We haven't paid them any sort of fees; afterall... But if they want to sell their game, they're going to have to stop being 1 - Douche bags and 2 - secretive.
I personally do not see any reason why to be negative about the game. It is clear that they have limited resources and that they have adapted the style of "letting info bit by byt to raise the hype", be it by purpose or by coincidence.
But all I have read in last 2 pages of this thread is either "I personally know what is the only way how to develop/promote/release MMO and any deviation means the game is crap" or "They are hiding feature x, thus the game must suck" accompanied with few neo-vaportroll remarks.
This means that any discussion is pointless. Arguments #1 are entirely subjective, often backed up by "knowledge" of kids whose idea of how the world works is based on watching TV. Arguments #2 are also inpenetrable, because always when they are thwarted, the people move to next topic that is missing (there is only one video/there are only two videos, there are no screenshots of UI, there is no video of UI, there is not enough info about feature #156, there is no webpage...).
As the facts go, we can say that we know more and more about the game, we hear that it works fine and we know that there are no leaks whatsover. There is a distributor for Europe known, there is a company providing server backbone known.
Based on hard facts it can be said that, unless we are being lied to, the game is in quite a good shape, where there is clearly visible that certain areas (animation of characters/structures dissapearing when destroyed etc) are sub-par. Some issues in this area (human hands on orcs) seemd to be fixed.
On the other side there is zero hard facts about the game being crap. The only "hard" fact is that the game has sub-par animations.
This forum has a long history of trolling the game and some people just like to be negative. I will personally will just wait a month and see whether it is any good or it sucks. And maybe, just maybe, they will put up a new web page with the possibility to buy the game online before they release it. And if they do, I am sure that some people will just find other reason why the game must suck.
When a company is launching a game they want people to buy the game. They gotta decide how best to promote the game and generate excitement.
The more complex the game the more bugs it will have and the more work it will take to debug and make work well.
A small percent of people will talk about a game in spite of NDAs.
These statements are all facts.
So when there is a large complex game promissing a huge feature set, the company is providing little or no information about the game other then through controlled press releases. There is no open beta. There are no beta leaks or information. Then we can draw some conclusions....
1. The company doesn't want the public to know about real operation of the game because it will hurt sales.
2. There are no leaks because there are very few or no public testers.
3. 1 & 2 and the fact that the game is large and complex would imply that the game is either incomplete or buggy.
I'm believing that this is probably the case.
So wisdom says stand back from this game when it launchs and let the dust settle before stepping into a potential pile of shit. So you can say that there are no facts about the game's current status but I'd say there are plenty of indicators that a wary customer should be considering.
My view (backed by the fact that I am a professional programmer) is like this:
The feature set of the game is richer than of the most other MMOs but not by an order of magnitude. Most of the "additional" features (forums, ship movement and combat, building of buildings, crafting) is pretty simple, can be easily separated and can be tested separately. In 1.5 of years they are "feature complete" it is pretty easy to test these features one by one. The most complex for both design and optimization seems to be the server code, as most of the data needs to be processed on the server. This is also where I can see the advantage of having "bots" available, because they make stress testing of both servers and clients so much easier.
I believe that in such a game, after the features are in game, the most programming capacity needs to be directed into engine enhancements and general code cleanup and bugfixing.
The most work on such project lies for sure on world builders and on 3d graphics designers and it is clearly visible that they have problems with this aspect.
The question is what is the overall quality of code; in a long project there tend to be modules whose developers left without properly commenting it, also less experienced people tend to write crap code, and if the lead sw engineer was idiot, did some bad design decisions, then the game can be buggy like hell. On the other hand they did a prototype (the original game before Aventurine stepped in) so it is quite likely that the biggest junk was thrown away.
If I take what they are saying as being a truth, although maybe a little more positive than it should be, and taking into consideration their committment of letting people try the game before paying as well as the fact that they must know that with the current image of the game they can hardly afford to sell crap like AoC did due to lack of advertisement massage, PR, licence and due to number of sceptics in the community, I think that the game will be in quite a good shape. At least from my "reading between lines". Because if it will be any other, then I will for sure not buy it.
I do think that it is worth pointing out that even through I'm asking questions the only conclusion I'm drawing is that we shouldn't trust the PR material and rampent fanbois. We should be cautious about spending money to buy the game especially before there are credible reviews and public feedback.. This is probably prudent simply based on the track records of recent games like AoC and Warhammer...
The big concern I have is that there is hardly any concrete evidence for players to get a clear picture on the game. All that is out there is; game dev said this or professional closed beta tester said this. All interviews that have been done are nothing more than demos, and not the actual beta version of the game.
Overall, in the big picture it doesn't really matter as long as a full version trial is offered.
look at forum regerstrations enough said granted it doesnt = what subs will be but theres goign to be a public beta anyways o yea we seen orcs too so not goblin areas only HA wrong again
Don't forget the skellies!
Seriously though...
It's not that big of a deal if they want to do minimal marketing/PR for their game. What isn't o.k. is a lack of professionalism. Now before anyone starts jumping up and down and says... company x didn't do y either. Makes no difference who does it. It's still bad.
Things like NOT updating your Official web-stie with current information. Especially the only specific Release Date EVER given out for the game in it's entire development history. (And no, putting it in the news section of the forums is NOT the same. Come on people, this isn't that hard to use a bit of common sense here. Just ask yourself... If it was my game, would I put the Release Date on the Home Page? Pretty sure there is only one HONEST answer to that question).
Things like NOT updating the FAQs for features that have been known to not make it for Release, or are cut entirely for quite a long while now. Just one example... Prestige classes: that was said quite awhile ago that won't make release... still in the FAQ. There are more, but you get the idea. Sure, it's quite expected that the FAQ will lag behind in this respect... but when it's months, and some much older than that... then it's not very professional.
Things like NOT making any kind of comment about the re-scheduling of OPEN BETA... unless someone still thinks they will be making their previous schedule of "the open beta phase is scheduled to end early in December".
Things like NOT having any finalized information on Direct Download, Hardware Requirements, Billing, Subscription, etc.
Those to me add up to not being professional with your product. I don't care if you don't want to market traditionally. I don't care if you aren't that big of a company. I don't care what the excuse it... it is not asking too much to expect that a company conduct themselves in a professional manner. The same as I expect from any other company.
This rant will probably put me back on the troll label again... but so be it. It's fine to be a fan for a game, but it's also o.k. to expect the company to treat you will a bit of respect and professionalism. They need us a whole lot more than we need them.
Honestly why does it matter if they lack "professionalism or not?" They owe you NOTHING! You haven't paid this company one penny so it doesn't really matter what they do with their site or their faq now does it?
Well this is where that logic takes us....
1) You are right! I'm sure they are never planning on charging any money at all for DarkFall. It will be FREE for all who want to play it forever! Hurray!
Hmm.... o.k. that one doesn't seem to go anywhere...
2) You are right! I'm sure that as soon as Aventurine starts charging money for DarkFall every past practice that they've done in the past will be changed! They will be the appitamy of professionalism once they start asking for our money!
Hmm... well, it's got a better chance of happening than #1... but still probably not as good a chance that what we are seeing now will be exactly how it is once the game goes live. THAT's the problem.
Honestly why does it matter if they lack "professionalism or not?" They owe you NOTHING! You haven't paid this company one penny so it doesn't really matter what they do with their site or their faq now does it?
Yea! Exactly. On that note. Why should Circuit City or Wal-Mart keep their shelves stocked? I mean if you want something you can just find the 1 employee in the store who doesn't try to avoid you like you have the plague and ask them to get it from the back for you, only to be told they are out of stock.
Or car dealerships letting people test drive their cars. I mean that's just stupid. The person looking at the car hasn't given them any money, why should they let them test drive it?
Restaurants owe you NOTHING! Why should they give you accurate menus with prices? I mean you haven't paid them anything yet.
To sum up. Aventurine owes us, the potential customers, EVERYTHING. You're trying to apply the 3 ridiculous examples I listed above to the release of a video game. Do you honestly think they are going to make any money when no one has any accurate information on the majority of what's included in the game?
Don't answer that, you obviously do, based on your original post.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I don't really know if its they owe us anything, but a trustworthy company would try to give good, reliable information and let the buyer make a decision. In the case of video games I would rank it:
1. Free Trial ( This is supposed to happen which is a good sign )
2. Open Beta ( No one know if will happen )
3. Player videos ( Does not exist, since no one has played the game )
4. Screen Shots ( Very few of these are floating around )
5. Player made FAQs ( Obviously does not exist, since no one has played the game )
Most people and companies like to give off some sort professional impression, because it helps your product look good.
To sum up. Aventurine owes us, the potential customers, EVERYTHING.
Comments
Don't forget the skellies!
Seriously though...
It's not that big of a deal if they want to do minimal marketing/PR for their game. What isn't o.k. is a lack of professionalism. Now before anyone starts jumping up and down and says... company x didn't do y either. Makes no difference who does it. It's still bad.
Things like NOT updating your Official web-stie with current information. Especially the only specific Release Date EVER given out for the game in it's entire development history. (And no, putting it in the news section of the forums is NOT the same. Come on people, this isn't that hard to use a bit of common sense here. Just ask yourself... If it was my game, would I put the Release Date on the Home Page? Pretty sure there is only one HONEST answer to that question).
Things like NOT updating the FAQs for features that have been known to not make it for Release, or are cut entirely for quite a long while now. Just one example... Prestige classes: that was said quite awhile ago that won't make release... still in the FAQ. There are more, but you get the idea. Sure, it's quite expected that the FAQ will lag behind in this respect... but when it's months, and some much older than that... then it's not very professional.
Things like NOT making any kind of comment about the re-scheduling of OPEN BETA... unless someone still thinks they will be making their previous schedule of "the open beta phase is scheduled to end early in December".
Things like NOT having any finalized information on Direct Download, Hardware Requirements, Billing, Subscription, etc.
Those to me add up to not being professional with your product. I don't care if you don't want to market traditionally. I don't care if you aren't that big of a company. I don't care what the excuse it... it is not asking too much to expect that a company conduct themselves in a professional manner. The same as I expect from any other company.
This rant will probably put me back on the troll label again... but so be it. It's fine to be a fan for a game, but it's also o.k. to expect the company to treat you will a bit of respect and professionalism. They need us a whole lot more than we need them.
digital download enough said
So you think a game is worth spending money on when they can't even find a distributor who has enough faith in the game to think it will sell. Funcom was able to find a distributor for AoC , yet Aventurine has to rely on some small advertising company in Greece for their European Distributor and no N American Distributor will touch the game. yeah that tells me pretty much all I need to know right there. Combined with no major game site previews ansd no sign of a open beta and all teh alarm bells are ringing off the wall on this one.
Combined with all that the poster before me pointed out I don't see ho anyone could have any faith whatsoever in the developer and the game. I been playing these games since the Ultima beta and all the warning signs of major turkey are branded all over Darkfall. No way I would send them a credit card number, look what happened with the poor saps who got mixed up with Dark and Light. But then the Dark and Light fanboys called me nothing but a troll too. Guess who had the last laugh there after Farlan/NPCube pulle dtheir crap.
Thanks but I am just going to watch this one till well after release, assuming they do manage some kind of release.
I miss DAoC
No one knows....
That was really the end of the thread.
Do you know when the NDA will drop? No you do not.
Do you know when the open beta will start, if there is an open beta? No you do not.
the end.
Yes we know
at the latest
2009 - 01- 22
I wouldnt put too much stock into that date Darth. Didnt you learn already from the promised 08 release? By now you should know better.
yes
promised 08 , and?
remenber
AOC most 1 year
warhammer ost 1 year
darkfall 5 years
problem?
Fixed
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
So confident in fact that theyve utilized AI to test along side actual people.
Fixed it for ya, I know you like to be accurate with your posts lol.
let me further fix it for you.
So confident in fact that theyve utilized Ai alongside Professional Testers.
There you go hoss. fixed.
Man you need an editor, but fixed for you again ^^.
Glad to help keep you accurate Arcken ^^
sorry had to fis from proffesional to professional. Which is the correct spelling since you mentioned being accrurate.
"sorry had to fis from proffesional to professional. Which is the correct spelling since you mentioned being accrurate. "
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
A preview from a site like IGN would make little difference. IGN seemed to like Warhammer Online a lot; but they still neglected to mention that the game's selling point was in fact, a huge lie that wasn't even close to completion both design wise and coding wise.
There is a small preview hosted by some creator of a sub standard web comic.
http://beta.thenoobcomic.com/df_preview/intro.html
Even a free trial wouldn't exactly quell my skepticism, as they could easily perform the classic bait and switch technique so many others have done. Both WAR and AOC had great early areas.
I'm so tired of a bunch of teenage retards by the thousands posting their opinions about Darkfall's failure.
Darkfall is coming out in January. It has more to offer than any mmo to date. They have come through on their promises and will release on time.
Get over it.
Hey! That's exactly how I feel! How did you read my mind like that? Are you a psychic?
Now hold on there partner. We don't know if they have delivered on all their promises yet as none of us have played the game. If you are talking about a promise of a release date... Well if you know the old saying... "If you throw enough STUFF at the wall, some of it will stick".
The game has had enough starts and stops over the years. In about 6 weeks we will see the result. Until that time I don;' know if they have "come through on their promises" or not. And neither do you unless you're one of the handful of people in the Beta.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Umm....
That might be an appropriate post on Jan. 22nd, 2009... before that it's not any better than what those others were posting you were complaining about.
Don't forget the skellies!
Seriously though...
It's not that big of a deal if they want to do minimal marketing/PR for their game. What isn't o.k. is a lack of professionalism. Now before anyone starts jumping up and down and says... company x didn't do y either. Makes no difference who does it. It's still bad.
Things like NOT updating your Official web-stie with current information. Especially the only specific Release Date EVER given out for the game in it's entire development history. (And no, putting it in the news section of the forums is NOT the same. Come on people, this isn't that hard to use a bit of common sense here. Just ask yourself... If it was my game, would I put the Release Date on the Home Page? Pretty sure there is only one HONEST answer to that question).
Things like NOT updating the FAQs for features that have been known to not make it for Release, or are cut entirely for quite a long while now. Just one example... Prestige classes: that was said quite awhile ago that won't make release... still in the FAQ. There are more, but you get the idea. Sure, it's quite expected that the FAQ will lag behind in this respect... but when it's months, and some much older than that... then it's not very professional.
Things like NOT making any kind of comment about the re-scheduling of OPEN BETA... unless someone still thinks they will be making their previous schedule of "the open beta phase is scheduled to end early in December".
Things like NOT having any finalized information on Direct Download, Hardware Requirements, Billing, Subscription, etc.
Those to me add up to not being professional with your product. I don't care if you don't want to market traditionally. I don't care if you aren't that big of a company. I don't care what the excuse it... it is not asking too much to expect that a company conduct themselves in a professional manner. The same as I expect from any other company.
This rant will probably put me back on the troll label again... but so be it. It's fine to be a fan for a game, but it's also o.k. to expect the company to treat you will a bit of respect and professionalism. They need us a whole lot more than we need them.
Honestly why does it matter if they lack "professionalism or not?" They owe you NOTHING! You haven't paid this company one penny so it doesn't really matter what they do with their site or their faq now does it?
Well then, since you seem posess some exclusive knowledge as to why we have no right to be skeptical; by all means - enlighten us. With facts, please. Not the developer's song and dance we've all heard numerous times already.
As far as them owing us nothing; that's perfectly fine. We haven't paid them any sort of fees; afterall... But if they want to sell their game, they're going to have to stop being 1 - Douche bags and 2 - secretive.
I personally do not see any reason why to be negative about the game. It is clear that they have limited resources and that they have adapted the style of "letting info bit by byt to raise the hype", be it by purpose or by coincidence.
But all I have read in last 2 pages of this thread is either "I personally know what is the only way how to develop/promote/release MMO and any deviation means the game is crap" or "They are hiding feature x, thus the game must suck" accompanied with few neo-vaportroll remarks.
This means that any discussion is pointless. Arguments #1 are entirely subjective, often backed up by "knowledge" of kids whose idea of how the world works is based on watching TV. Arguments #2 are also inpenetrable, because always when they are thwarted, the people move to next topic that is missing (there is only one video/there are only two videos, there are no screenshots of UI, there is no video of UI, there is not enough info about feature #156, there is no webpage...).
As the facts go, we can say that we know more and more about the game, we hear that it works fine and we know that there are no leaks whatsover. There is a distributor for Europe known, there is a company providing server backbone known.
Based on hard facts it can be said that, unless we are being lied to, the game is in quite a good shape, where there is clearly visible that certain areas (animation of characters/structures dissapearing when destroyed etc) are sub-par. Some issues in this area (human hands on orcs) seemd to be fixed.
On the other side there is zero hard facts about the game being crap. The only "hard" fact is that the game has sub-par animations.
This forum has a long history of trolling the game and some people just like to be negative. I will personally will just wait a month and see whether it is any good or it sucks. And maybe, just maybe, they will put up a new web page with the possibility to buy the game online before they release it. And if they do, I am sure that some people will just find other reason why the game must suck.
It is called reading between the lines...
When a company is launching a game they want people to buy the game. They gotta decide how best to promote the game and generate excitement.
The more complex the game the more bugs it will have and the more work it will take to debug and make work well.
A small percent of people will talk about a game in spite of NDAs.
These statements are all facts.
So when there is a large complex game promissing a huge feature set, the company is providing little or no information about the game other then through controlled press releases. There is no open beta. There are no beta leaks or information. Then we can draw some conclusions....
1. The company doesn't want the public to know about real operation of the game because it will hurt sales.
2. There are no leaks because there are very few or no public testers.
3. 1 & 2 and the fact that the game is large and complex would imply that the game is either incomplete or buggy.
I'm believing that this is probably the case.
So wisdom says stand back from this game when it launchs and let the dust settle before stepping into a potential pile of shit. So you can say that there are no facts about the game's current status but I'd say there are plenty of indicators that a wary customer should be considering.
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Ethion
My view (backed by the fact that I am a professional programmer) is like this:
The feature set of the game is richer than of the most other MMOs but not by an order of magnitude. Most of the "additional" features (forums, ship movement and combat, building of buildings, crafting) is pretty simple, can be easily separated and can be tested separately. In 1.5 of years they are "feature complete" it is pretty easy to test these features one by one. The most complex for both design and optimization seems to be the server code, as most of the data needs to be processed on the server. This is also where I can see the advantage of having "bots" available, because they make stress testing of both servers and clients so much easier.
I believe that in such a game, after the features are in game, the most programming capacity needs to be directed into engine enhancements and general code cleanup and bugfixing.
The most work on such project lies for sure on world builders and on 3d graphics designers and it is clearly visible that they have problems with this aspect.
The question is what is the overall quality of code; in a long project there tend to be modules whose developers left without properly commenting it, also less experienced people tend to write crap code, and if the lead sw engineer was idiot, did some bad design decisions, then the game can be buggy like hell. On the other hand they did a prototype (the original game before Aventurine stepped in) so it is quite likely that the biggest junk was thrown away.
If I take what they are saying as being a truth, although maybe a little more positive than it should be, and taking into consideration their committment of letting people try the game before paying as well as the fact that they must know that with the current image of the game they can hardly afford to sell crap like AoC did due to lack of advertisement massage, PR, licence and due to number of sceptics in the community, I think that the game will be in quite a good shape. At least from my "reading between lines". Because if it will be any other, then I will for sure not buy it.
I do think that it is worth pointing out that even through I'm asking questions the only conclusion I'm drawing is that we shouldn't trust the PR material and rampent fanbois. We should be cautious about spending money to buy the game especially before there are credible reviews and public feedback.. This is probably prudent simply based on the track records of recent games like AoC and Warhammer...
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Ethion
The big concern I have is that there is hardly any concrete evidence for players to get a clear picture on the game. All that is out there is; game dev said this or professional closed beta tester said this. All interviews that have been done are nothing more than demos, and not the actual beta version of the game.
Overall, in the big picture it doesn't really matter as long as a full version trial is offered.
Don't forget the skellies!
Seriously though...
It's not that big of a deal if they want to do minimal marketing/PR for their game. What isn't o.k. is a lack of professionalism. Now before anyone starts jumping up and down and says... company x didn't do y either. Makes no difference who does it. It's still bad.
Things like NOT updating your Official web-stie with current information. Especially the only specific Release Date EVER given out for the game in it's entire development history. (And no, putting it in the news section of the forums is NOT the same. Come on people, this isn't that hard to use a bit of common sense here. Just ask yourself... If it was my game, would I put the Release Date on the Home Page? Pretty sure there is only one HONEST answer to that question).
Things like NOT updating the FAQs for features that have been known to not make it for Release, or are cut entirely for quite a long while now. Just one example... Prestige classes: that was said quite awhile ago that won't make release... still in the FAQ. There are more, but you get the idea. Sure, it's quite expected that the FAQ will lag behind in this respect... but when it's months, and some much older than that... then it's not very professional.
Things like NOT making any kind of comment about the re-scheduling of OPEN BETA... unless someone still thinks they will be making their previous schedule of "the open beta phase is scheduled to end early in December".
Things like NOT having any finalized information on Direct Download, Hardware Requirements, Billing, Subscription, etc.
Those to me add up to not being professional with your product. I don't care if you don't want to market traditionally. I don't care if you aren't that big of a company. I don't care what the excuse it... it is not asking too much to expect that a company conduct themselves in a professional manner. The same as I expect from any other company.
This rant will probably put me back on the troll label again... but so be it. It's fine to be a fan for a game, but it's also o.k. to expect the company to treat you will a bit of respect and professionalism. They need us a whole lot more than we need them.
Honestly why does it matter if they lack "professionalism or not?" They owe you NOTHING! You haven't paid this company one penny so it doesn't really matter what they do with their site or their faq now does it?
Well this is where that logic takes us....
1) You are right! I'm sure they are never planning on charging any money at all for DarkFall. It will be FREE for all who want to play it forever! Hurray!
Hmm.... o.k. that one doesn't seem to go anywhere...
2) You are right! I'm sure that as soon as Aventurine starts charging money for DarkFall every past practice that they've done in the past will be changed! They will be the appitamy of professionalism once they start asking for our money!
Hmm... well, it's got a better chance of happening than #1... but still probably not as good a chance that what we are seeing now will be exactly how it is once the game goes live. THAT's the problem.
Yea! Exactly. On that note. Why should Circuit City or Wal-Mart keep their shelves stocked? I mean if you want something you can just find the 1 employee in the store who doesn't try to avoid you like you have the plague and ask them to get it from the back for you, only to be told they are out of stock.
Or car dealerships letting people test drive their cars. I mean that's just stupid. The person looking at the car hasn't given them any money, why should they let them test drive it?
Restaurants owe you NOTHING! Why should they give you accurate menus with prices? I mean you haven't paid them anything yet.
To sum up. Aventurine owes us, the potential customers, EVERYTHING. You're trying to apply the 3 ridiculous examples I listed above to the release of a video game. Do you honestly think they are going to make any money when no one has any accurate information on the majority of what's included in the game?
Don't answer that, you obviously do, based on your original post.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I don't really know if its they owe us anything, but a trustworthy company would try to give good, reliable information and let the buyer make a decision. In the case of video games I would rank it:
1. Free Trial ( This is supposed to happen which is a good sign )
2. Open Beta ( No one know if will happen )
3. Player videos ( Does not exist, since no one has played the game )
4. Screen Shots ( Very few of these are floating around )
5. Player made FAQs ( Obviously does not exist, since no one has played the game )
Most people and companies like to give off some sort professional impression, because it helps your product look good.
To sum up. Aventurine owes us, the potential customers, EVERYTHING.