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TCG is NOT illegal!!!
SkeeSkee
Member UncommonPosts: 129
I hate defending this game. I really do, but I hate misinformation even more.
Gambling:
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.
You are NOT making a wager (something risked or staked on an uncertain event). You are purchasing a pack of virtual online trading cards. You pay money for the cards and you receive them. Just because there is a chance that you might not get the specific card you want does not make it "illegal" or "gambling". If that was the case, then Baseball cards would be "illegal".
Yes it's a great big middle finger to the customers. Yes expect to see all good future loot come through the TCG. Yes it seems like a last ditch effort by SOE to squeeze every last cent of out their customers.
I thought it was a stupid idea when I first heard it but you all (who are still subbed) need to find better ways to fight this than trying to make false claims that will go nowhere. You want to make an impact? Cancel your account. That is what gets SOE's attention. Other than that, do not expect them to change their stance on this.
Comments
Yes please cancel your $OE account ..NOW
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
You're wrong, this will be made abundantly clear to you in the very near future.
S
Dear OP, whomever said it was illegal (under any jurisdiction worldwide) was either very misinformed, stupid, or trying to provoke a response.
There are a multitude of things that SOE could be accused of, but breaking the law isn't one, nor is it remotely likely that it will ever be.
Don't let the nublets worry you - SOE doesn't
No, not misinformed, stupid or trying to provoke a response. In possession of the facts? I most certainly am, and you, most certainly, are not.
S
Well, people aren't trying to get certain cards for the TCG, they are trying to get loot items for StarWars Galaxies. These loot items having nothing to do with the card game itself. They are just dangled for SWG players to gamble for them, with real cash. Here's the definition of online gambling if you like, according to recent U.S. legislation: "So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
You make it sound like people are just unhappy with the TCG card they got, as if the "loot items" are a part of that game. They aren't.
You also make it sound as if the prize must be cash or material goods in order for it to be gambling. The law seems much broader in its language (see above). What seems to be the issue is the risk of real cash on a chance outcome.
At best, the loot items are a product promotional gone wrong. If Tim Horton's role up the rim coffee promotional was done like the loot cards this would be like people buying hundreds of dollars of Tim Horton's coffee, hoping to win an SUV. That would be gambling for the SUV.
Of course, Tim Horton's follows the laws about these things. They publish the exact odds regarding available prizes, and they allow customers to participate in the promotional without making a purchase, at all. There is a no purchase necessary clause attached to the promotional contest. This prevents the scenario I just described (people buying coffee cups just to win the prize).
Unlike Tim Horton's, in the TCG, people are buying the card packs (sometimes wasting hundreds of dollars) hoping to win the prize of an SWG loot item. Unlike Tim Horton's, SOE does not provide odds, officially. If they change this, their odds still aren't verified by an independent party. Also, unlike Tim Horton's in order to win the loot, money MUST change hands. There is not a "no purchase required clause" in this contest.
It certainly seems like paying hundreds of dollars for the random chance of a loot item embedded in the TCG fits the definition of online gambling. If it's some kind of product promotional, it seems to not follow the regulations for those either.
However you look at it, this is certainly not people purchasing trading cards packs and being unhappy with the trading cards they got, at all. Remember the loot items people are gambling for are not part of the trading card game itself.
I know that people are seeking clarity on this from the proper authorities. It certainly seems to contradict the laws and regulations for the U.S.. Hopefully we'll get some confirmation one way or the other soon.
Most people agree that this is an unethical cash grab. What remains to be seen is if SOE's legal consultants missed a beat this time.
No, not misinformed, stupid or trying to provoke a response. In possession of the facts? I most certainly am, and you, most certainly, are not.
S
What a strange response.
I personally could not care less what 'facts' you think you have that I do not. What would be required is evidence, and I'm confident that you have none.
In all honesty, these little crusades against SOE provide great entertainment for me, and I encourage you to keep it up.
I've addressed the OP directly and I have no interest in arguing with you, Sharkypal. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but I would suggest not trying to claim them as fact. Take care
SOE did committ wire fraud. The refunds to those who pre-ordered the Trials of Obi Wan expansion were not becuase SOE was being nice.
so i guess buying a lottery card isn't gambling either. After all you're just buying a card.
Whatever, this is nothing compared to the cash shop that will show up soon. To burn a lot of cash on something that might be useful is not in the same lague as actually buying XP pots and so on.
And since it came to EQ 1&2 it will come to SWG too, just like the TCG did.
No, not misinformed, stupid or trying to provoke a response. In possession of the facts? I most certainly am, and you, most certainly, are not.
S
What a strange response.
I personally could not care less what 'facts' you think you have that I do not. What would be required is evidence, and I'm confident that you have none.
In all honesty, these little crusades against SOE provide great entertainment for me, and I encourage you to keep it up.
I've addressed the OP directly and I have no interest in arguing with you, Sharkypal. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but I would suggest not trying to claim them as fact. Take care
I suggest you avail yourself of US state and federal law. I dont doubt its legal in the UK (what isnt). I dont "think" I have facts and I can assure you that this is being thouroughly investigated. Im glad that SOE's continuous abuse of its customers amuses you but I would suggest you go and troll elsewhere.
If you have anything useful to contribute, feel free. Otherwise, keep your silly comments to yourself.
Evidence has been provided on numerous occasions.
S
Well, people aren't trying to get certain cards for the TCG, they are trying to get loot items for StarWars Galaxies. These loot items having nothing to do with the card game itself. They are just dangled for SWG players to gamble for them, with real cash. Here's the definition of online gambling if you like, according to recent U.S. legislation: "So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
You make it sound like people are just unhappy with the TCG card they got, as if the "loot items" are a part of that game. They aren't.
You also make it sound as if the prize must be cash or material goods in order for it to be gambling. The law seems much broader in its language (see above). What seems to be the issue is the risk of real cash on a chance outcome.
At best, the loot items are a product promotional gone wrong. If Tim Horton's role up the rim coffee promotional was done like the loot cards this would be like people buying hundreds of dollars of Tim Horton's coffee, hoping to win an SUV. That would be gambling for the SUV.
Of course, Tim Horton's follows the laws about these things. They publish the exact odds regarding available prizes, and they allow customers to participate in the promotional without making a purchase, at all. There is a no purchase necessary clause attached to the promotional contest. This prevents the scenario I just described (people buying coffee cups just to win the prize).
Unlike Tim Horton's, in the TCG, people are buying the card packs (sometimes wasting hundreds of dollars) hoping to win the prize of an SWG loot item. Unlike Tim Horton's, SOE does not provide odds, officially. If they change this, their odds still aren't verified by an independent party. Also, unlike Tim Horton's in order to win the loot, money MUST change hands. There is not a "no purchase required clause" in this contest.
It certainly seems like paying hundreds of dollars for the random chance of a loot item embedded in the TCG fits the definition of online gambling. If it's some kind of product promotional, it seems to not follow the regulations for those either.
However you look at it, this is certainly not people purchasing trading cards packs and being unhappy with the trading cards they got, at all. Remember the loot items people are gambling for are not part of the trading card game itself.
I know that people are seeking clarity on this from the proper authorities. It certainly seems to contradict the laws and regulations for the U.S.. Hopefully we'll get some confirmation one way or the other soon.
Most people agree that this is an unethical cash grab. What remains to be seen is if SOE's legal consultants missed a beat this time.
I hope none of you plan a career in law.
The TCG is NOT a lottery. You are purchasing a product. SOE advertises the sale of virtual trading cards. There is NO chance. You are purchasing virtual trading cards and you are being provided virtual trading cards. It's the exact same as baseball cards...not a hard concept to understand here.
I dare any of you to take this to an actual law firm. Just try not to take it to personally when they laugh you out of the office.
Well, people aren't trying to get certain cards for the TCG, they are trying to get loot items for StarWars Galaxies. These loot items having nothing to do with the card game itself. They are just dangled for SWG players to gamble for them, with real cash. Here's the definition of online gambling if you like, according to recent U.S. legislation: "So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
You make it sound like people are just unhappy with the TCG card they got, as if the "loot items" are a part of that game. They aren't.
You also make it sound as if the prize must be cash or material goods in order for it to be gambling. The law seems much broader in its language (see above). What seems to be the issue is the risk of real cash on a chance outcome.
At best, the loot items are a product promotional gone wrong. If Tim Horton's role up the rim coffee promotional was done like the loot cards this would be like people buying hundreds of dollars of Tim Horton's coffee, hoping to win an SUV. That would be gambling for the SUV.
Of course, Tim Horton's follows the laws about these things. They publish the exact odds regarding available prizes, and they allow customers to participate in the promotional without making a purchase, at all. There is a no purchase necessary clause attached to the promotional contest. This prevents the scenario I just described (people buying coffee cups just to win the prize).
Unlike Tim Horton's, in the TCG, people are buying the card packs (sometimes wasting hundreds of dollars) hoping to win the prize of an SWG loot item. Unlike Tim Horton's, SOE does not provide odds, officially. If they change this, their odds still aren't verified by an independent party. Also, unlike Tim Horton's in order to win the loot, money MUST change hands. There is not a "no purchase required clause" in this contest.
It certainly seems like paying hundreds of dollars for the random chance of a loot item embedded in the TCG fits the definition of online gambling. If it's some kind of product promotional, it seems to not follow the regulations for those either.
However you look at it, this is certainly not people purchasing trading cards packs and being unhappy with the trading cards they got, at all. Remember the loot items people are gambling for are not part of the trading card game itself.
I know that people are seeking clarity on this from the proper authorities. It certainly seems to contradict the laws and regulations for the U.S.. Hopefully we'll get some confirmation one way or the other soon.
Most people agree that this is an unethical cash grab. What remains to be seen is if SOE's legal consultants missed a beat this time.
I hope none of you plan a career in law.
The TCG is NOT a lottery. You are purchasing a product. SOE advertises the sale of virtual trading cards. There is NO chance. You are purchasing virtual trading cards and you are being provided virtual trading cards. It's the exact same as baseball cards...not a hard concept to understand here.
I dare any of you to take this to an actual law firm. Just try not to take it to personally when they laugh you out of the office.
No its not and various state, federal and provincial bodies that are well practiced in the nuances of law are actively disagreeing with your pigeon legal opinions.
S
PS : No one has laughed me out of the office at this point. The people I've spoken to who are in the legal and gaming professions are very concerned about this and are investigating it further.
Don't bother, Skee. You will never convince the people that reside on this hellhole of a forum that SOE isn't breaking the law. Not because they are breaking the law, mind you -- if the TCG is gambling, so is buying baseball cards -- but because if the people here could find a way to pin a genocide on SOE, they would. Completely irrational.
-- Barrahm
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
Unless any of you are actually practicing Federal Attorneys none of you know squat. As for the legalities of the issue we will all soon find out since the proper authorities have been notified of this.I'm sure SOE consults theirs, but they are not always right, as history has shown.
Exactly. They had to give refunds on the expansion because they allegedly sold it under false pretenses. People bought the expansion to enjoy features that SOE had already decided to delete. They neglected to inform customers of these plans. Had customers been duly informed, they would not have purchased the expansion, hence the complete refund. That's my recollection of the events that transpired in 2005. So, I agree, SOE does not always get good legal advice. If they did, they would not have sold the expansion under allegedly false pretenses in the first place. They would have told the public about their plans before the expansion purchase, not the day after.
For those that keep comparing this to baseball cards. You do understand that when you buy baseball cards, that is what you're after? You buy baseball cards, and you get baseball cards. This is very straightforward.
You do realize that the loot items that people are trying to get have no function in the TCG card game don't you? You realize that they give people a competitive advantage in another online game, one that people are already paying a fee to play don't you?
I find it hard to believe that you can't see the difference between people buying, and receiving, baseball cards, and people gambling for loot items that have nothing to do with the virtual card game they are embedded in.
Do you really think SOE should be taking hundreds of dollars from people who are trying to win the fastest vehicle in SWG, or an additional combat buff? Wouldn't you rather players be able to earn these vehicles and buffs all in the game that they are already paying for?
If there is a game of chance (which appears to be the case), wouldn't you rather people know this up front, and know their odds of winning or losing? Wouldn't you rather have the odds verified by someone? Do you really want SOE to be able to "stack the deck" in their favour anytime they want? Why would you want this?
Indeed, I am no lawyer and I will leave that to the respective professions. I can only say that there is an inherent interest in SOE's practices. I will respect the outcome regardless.
SOE could have avoided this by properly supporting their exisitng game(s) in favour of screwing their customers. I suspect that it is their past behaviour that has infuriated so many people.
S
Indeed, I am no lawyer and I will leave that to the respective professions. I can only say that there is an inherent interest in SOE's practices. I will respect the outcome regardless.
SOE could have avoided this by properly supporting their exisitng game(s) in favour of screwing their customers. I suspect that it is their past behaviour that has infuriated so many people.
S
Well, no shit.
However, I have a feeling that this is going to go the same as teh BBB complaints after NGE implementation. Shittily done and historically unethical? Yes. Illegal? Sadly, no.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
Well, people aren't trying to get certain cards for the TCG, they are trying to get loot items for StarWars Galaxies. These loot items having nothing to do with the card game itself. They are just dangled for SWG players to gamble for them, with real cash. Here's the definition of online gambling if you like, according to recent U.S. legislation: "So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
You make it sound like people are just unhappy with the TCG card they got, as if the "loot items" are a part of that game. They aren't.
You also make it sound as if the prize must be cash or material goods in order for it to be gambling. The law seems much broader in its language (see above). What seems to be the issue is the risk of real cash on a chance outcome.
At best, the loot items are a product promotional gone wrong. If Tim Horton's role up the rim coffee promotional was done like the loot cards this would be like people buying hundreds of dollars of Tim Horton's coffee, hoping to win an SUV. That would be gambling for the SUV.
Of course, Tim Horton's follows the laws about these things. They publish the exact odds regarding available prizes, and they allow customers to participate in the promotional without making a purchase, at all. There is a no purchase necessary clause attached to the promotional contest. This prevents the scenario I just described (people buying coffee cups just to win the prize).
Unlike Tim Horton's, in the TCG, people are buying the card packs (sometimes wasting hundreds of dollars) hoping to win the prize of an SWG loot item. Unlike Tim Horton's, SOE does not provide odds, officially. If they change this, their odds still aren't verified by an independent party. Also, unlike Tim Horton's in order to win the loot, money MUST change hands. There is not a "no purchase required clause" in this contest.
It certainly seems like paying hundreds of dollars for the random chance of a loot item embedded in the TCG fits the definition of online gambling. If it's some kind of product promotional, it seems to not follow the regulations for those either.
However you look at it, this is certainly not people purchasing trading cards packs and being unhappy with the trading cards they got, at all. Remember the loot items people are gambling for are not part of the trading card game itself.
I know that people are seeking clarity on this from the proper authorities. It certainly seems to contradict the laws and regulations for the U.S.. Hopefully we'll get some confirmation one way or the other soon.
Most people agree that this is an unethical cash grab. What remains to be seen is if SOE's legal consultants missed a beat this time.
So everytime you buy some Coke, you're gambling because you have a "Chance to Win $100,000!!!"? Or playing the monopoly game at McDonalds, gambling away your money on those McNuggets...tsk tsk... You are not anywhere near capable of interpreting any type of law beyond the standard penal code, so leave it at that. It is far from illegal, and far from ethical. The difference is that being unethical and unwanted does NOT make it illegal. Don't take my word for it though, call up your local law professors. Ask them. Call a judge or two, ask them. Call some lawyers even, desperate as they are to "win you some money," they will tell you in more words what I have told you.
A dyslexic man walked into a bra.
you do relize this is the same as buying a pack of baseball cards right? how come those aren't considered illegal? you have a chance of getting a great card, but 99% of the time its just normal cards.
It's actually a bit different. It would be like buying a pack of baseball cards and having a chance of something completely different being inside. You still get everything that you paid for (the cards) but have a chance at something extra (say, a stick of gum). Very legal, very "not gambling."
A dyslexic man walked into a bra.
If they put free all-star game tickets in random packs in order to sell more it would be the same. People buy baseball cards because they want the cards. People buy TCG packs because they want the in-game loot...not some great card to play the card game with. Surely you see the difference.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
If they put free all-star game tickets in random packs in order to sell more it would be the same. People buy baseball cards because they want the cards. People buy TCG packs because they want the in-game loot...not some great card to play the card game with. Surely you see the difference.
But they DO put extra stuff in baseball card packs. Thus, invalid argument.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
If they put free all-star game tickets in random packs in order to sell more it would be the same. People buy baseball cards because they want the cards. People buy TCG packs because they want the in-game loot...not some great card to play the card game with. Surely you see the difference.
But they DO put extra stuff in baseball card packs. Thus, invalid argument.
Like?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I had almost forgotten!
Blizzard did the EXACT, SAME THING.
People don't hate blizzard like they hate SOE though, that's for sure.
The card game fell out of the spotlight almost immediately, but offered exclusive in game items, aquired by chance, identical to the situation here at SOE. I'm pretty sure they ddin't get a lawsuit out of that one. Maybe people are mad because they can't sell the items on Ebay, because no one plays the SoE games anymore
A dyslexic man walked into a bra.
If they put free all-star game tickets in random packs in order to sell more it would be the same. People buy baseball cards because they want the cards. People buy TCG packs because they want the in-game loot...not some great card to play the card game with. Surely you see the difference.
But they DO put extra stuff in baseball card packs. Thus, invalid argument.
That doesn't make it an invalid argument. Applying your community college Philosophy class learnings is appreciated, but keep it legitimate. What he says is exactly true. He described a situation in which the terms would be the same as the formentioned situation, it just so happens that the situation he describes does exist, and really only furthers his point; that the two situations would indeed be the same.
A dyslexic man walked into a bra.