you do relize this is the same as buying a pack of baseball cards right? how come those aren't considered illegal? you have a chance of getting a great card, but 99% of the time its just normal cards.
If they put free all-star game tickets in random packs in order to sell more it would be the same. People buy baseball cards because they want the cards. People buy TCG packs because they want the in-game loot...not some great card to play the card game with. Surely you see the difference.
But they DO put extra stuff in baseball card packs. Thus, invalid argument.
Like?
Jersey cards, limited-edition autographed stuff and crap like that.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
you do relize this is the same as buying a pack of baseball cards right? how come those aren't considered illegal? you have a chance of getting a great card, but 99% of the time its just normal cards.
If they put free all-star game tickets in random packs in order to sell more it would be the same. People buy baseball cards because they want the cards. People buy TCG packs because they want the in-game loot...not some great card to play the card game with. Surely you see the difference.
But they DO put extra stuff in baseball card packs. Thus, invalid argument.
That doesn't make it an invalid argument. Applying your community college Philosophy class learnings is appreciated, but keep it legitimate. What he says is exactly true. He described a situation in which the terms would be the same as the formentioned situation, it just so happens that the situation he describes does exist, and really only furthers his point; that the two situations would indeed be the same.
Ah, "community college philosophy class." Cute.
Sorry, but you guys are full of shit. I don't like the TCG, but it's not illegal. End of fucking story.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
you do relize this is the same as buying a pack of baseball cards right? how come those aren't considered illegal? you have a chance of getting a great card, but 99% of the time its just normal cards.
Yeah but this is actually a computer generated roll, not luck of the draw. Not to mention the fact it’s all just virtual shit, you spend money on it it’s a gamble. It’s just like the Casinos in Second Life, sure the fun may have been in the game, but it was set up to make someone rich, even if it was just for virtual items. They were seriously outlawed by the FBI in Second Life, no Joke. They still pop up from time to time, but if Linden Labs finds out; they shut the whole sim down and freeze the account in question as well as the people who dumped money into the machines.
Do you guys have those Raffle tickets the Lotteries do over the holidays, you know, only 250 thousand sold ect and you get the chance to win stuff. Or how about those lottery tickets that give you a chance to win a truck? It's a lottery no matter what the intended use of the card may be, whether as a playing card or cup coaster. It should either be, no purchase necessary to win, or they need to change the age limit on this card game. I think these are the arguments being used. I'm no sure how this will all play out, if anything both sides have a pretty decent arguement.
you do relize this is the same as buying a pack of baseball cards right? how come those aren't considered illegal? you have a chance of getting a great card, but 99% of the time its just normal cards.
Yeah but this is actually a computer generated roll, not luck of the draw. Not to mention the fact it’s all just virtual shit, you spend money on it it’s a gamble. It’s just like the Casinos in Second Life, sure the fun may have been in the game, but it was set up to make someone rich, even if it was just for virtual items. They were seriously outlawed by the FBI in Second Life, no Joke. They still pop up from time to time, but if Linden Labs finds out; they shut the whole sim down and freeze the account in question as well as the people who dumped money into the machines.
Do you guys have those Raffle tickets the Lotteries do over the holidays, you know, only 250 thousand sold ect and you get the chance to win stuff. Or how about those lottery tickets that give you a chance to win a truck? It's a lottery no matter what the intended use of the card may be, whether as a playing card or cup coaster. It should either be, no purchase necessary to win, or they need to change the age limit on this card game. I think these are the arguments being used. I'm no sure how this will all play out, if anything both sides have a pretty decent arguement.
You fail to understand the concept here. When you buy a lottery ticket, you are not paying for the piece of paper AND a chance to win, JUST the chance to win. The paper has no value. What is happening here is the purchase of a good, which has value assigned to it on its own. Money, for the cards. Anything else is a chance to win something extra, at their whim, however they "randomly" assign the items. You are not paying for the item, nor are you losing anything if you do not receive one. There is no loss, therefore there is no lawsuit. Both sides do not have "good" arguements, legally. Only SOE does. However the ethics of this can be discussed all day long.
It is illegal and its also legal. Lets take the state of Nevada for instance and why they cant do tournaments and give prizes out to Nevada citizens. They have to first register with the gaming commision there so it is regulated. The TCG card game is not regulated by anyone exept SOE. This is why one of the states there menitoning like Nevada cant participate in alot of things. So by them eliminating the states that have laws on the books about gambling and registering events prizes etc with gaming commision's there legal.
Unless someone out there can produce violations that SOE is doing with state laws that is in violation of current gambling laws they are totally legal in operating in each state that allows it. Im all for finding violations that SOE is doing with the TCG card game but they have really covered there butts it looks like with what states they can or can not operate this ungoverned chance game they call the TCG.
I hate defending this game. I really do, but I hate misinformation even more. Gambling: Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.
You are NOT making a wager (something risked or staked on an uncertain event). You are purchasing a pack of virtual online trading cards. You pay money for the cards and you receive them. Just because there is a chance that you might not get the specific card you want does not make it "illegal" or "gambling". If that was the case, then Baseball cards would be "illegal". Yes it's a great big middle finger to the customers. Yes expect to see all good future loot come through the TCG. Yes it seems like a last ditch effort by SOE to squeeze every last cent of out their customers. I thought it was a stupid idea when I first heard it but you all (who are still subbed) need to find better ways to fight this than trying to make false claims that will go nowhere. You want to make an impact? Cancel your account. That is what gets SOE's attention. Other than that, do not expect them to change their stance on this.
Well, people aren't trying to get certain cards for the TCG, they are trying to get loot items for StarWars Galaxies. These loot items having nothing to do with the card game itself. They are just dangled for SWG players to gamble for them, with real cash. Here's the definition of online gambling if you like, according to recent U.S. legislation: "So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
You make it sound like people are just unhappy with the TCG card they got, as if the "loot items" are a part of that game. They aren't.
You also make it sound as if the prize must be cash or material goods in order for it to be gambling. The law seems much broader in its language (see above). What seems to be the issue is the risk of real cash on a chance outcome.
At best, the loot items are a product promotional gone wrong. If Tim Horton's role up the rim coffee promotional was done like the loot cards this would be like people buying hundreds of dollars of Tim Horton's coffee, hoping to win an SUV. That would be gambling for the SUV.
Of course, Tim Horton's follows the laws about these things. They publish the exact odds regarding available prizes, and they allow customers to participate in the promotional without making a purchase, at all. There is a no purchase necessary clause attached to the promotional contest. This prevents the scenario I just described (people buying coffee cups just to win the prize).
Unlike Tim Horton's, in the TCG, people are buying the card packs (sometimes wasting hundreds of dollars) hoping to win the prize of an SWG loot item. Unlike Tim Horton's, SOE does not provide odds, officially. If they change this, their odds still aren't verified by an independent party. Also, unlike Tim Horton's in order to win the loot, money MUST change hands. There is not a "no purchase required clause" in this contest.
It certainly seems like paying hundreds of dollars for the random chance of a loot item embedded in the TCG fits the definition of online gambling. If it's some kind of product promotional, it seems to not follow the regulations for those either.
However you look at it, this is certainly not people purchasing trading cards packs and being unhappy with the trading cards they got, at all. Remember the loot items people are gambling for are not part of the trading card game itself.
I know that people are seeking clarity on this from the proper authorities. It certainly seems to contradict the laws and regulations for the U.S.. Hopefully we'll get some confirmation one way or the other soon.
Most people agree that this is an unethical cash grab. What remains to be seen is if SOE's legal consultants missed a beat this time.
So everytime you buy some Coke, you're gambling because you have a "Chance to Win $100,000!!!"? Or playing the monopoly game at McDonalds, gambling away your money on those McNuggets...tsk tsk... You are not anywhere near capable of interpreting any type of law beyond the standard penal code, so leave it at that. It is far from illegal, and far from ethical. The difference is that being unethical and unwanted does NOT make it illegal. Don't take my word for it though, call up your local law professors. Ask them. Call a judge or two, ask them. Call some lawyers even, desperate as they are to "win you some money," they will tell you in more words what I have told you.
Please note that all of the Coke promotionals that you're referring to have a "NO PURCHASE NECESSARY" clause.
They also provide you with your chance of winning or losing. This is what is legally required in the U.S. and Canada to prevent them from being gambling.
The first thing you'll notice is that the exact odds of winning each prize are provided.
The second thing you'll notice if you click on the rules and redemption tab is that there is no purchase necessary to participate in the promotional. You can participate without giving Tim Horton's any money whatsoever.
This is why buying a Coke, or a Tim Horton's coffee, in Canada or the U.S. isn't gambling. SOE's loot items do not follow these regulations it would seem. Does that clarify the difference?
people already have, lottery, baseball cards, blizzard card game, all legal, all similar.
and why isnt anyone hating on blizzard? oh thats right, any excuse to get at soe, i forget
No they havent and Blizzard doesn't have a record of screwing their customers. See the difference?
Didnt think so.
S
Completely irrelevant.
SOE's history has NO bearing on whether or not the TCG is "illegal."
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
people already have, lottery, baseball cards, blizzard card game, all legal, all similar.
and why isnt anyone hating on blizzard? oh thats right, any excuse to get at soe, i forget
No they havent and Blizzard doesn't have a record of screwing their customers. See the difference?
Didnt think so.
S
Completely irrelevant.
SOE's history has NO bearing on whether or not the TCG is "illegal."
I wasnt commenting on the legality, I was commenting on why people don't hassle Blizzard. Secondly, Blizzards card game is not the same as SOE's.
S
Blizzard's game has several different facts. First, they print physical cards that you have every right to sell. You own the cards when you purchase them. Second, the in game cards do not give you an in game advantage. When one accidently did (the normal movement rate mount that accidently could be boosted like a normal mount) they went in and re-coded it to make sure it did not have an impact in the game beyond having it. Third, those cards do not have the restriction that Blizzard owns all rights to the card, or retain the right to decide wether you can sell it or not. You own the card, what you do after you purchase the pack is not thiers to decide. Fourth, you know the exact odds of getting the card you want, it is monitored and there are records of how many are printed.
Need anymore differences?
Let me also approach this in a slightly different manner. Say you bought a coke and won the SUV, But Coke's rules say they still own the vehicle, and they can do with it anything they wanted, without your concent. At any time they could reclaim it, or switch it out for a different vehicle even if you are depending on it? Where would the legality of this be in the long run?
people already have, lottery, baseball cards, blizzard card game, all legal, all similar.
and why isnt anyone hating on blizzard? oh thats right, any excuse to get at soe, i forget
No they havent and Blizzard doesn't have a record of screwing their customers. See the difference?
Didnt think so.
S
Completely irrelevant.
SOE's history has NO bearing on whether or not the TCG is "illegal."
I wasnt commenting on the legality, I was commenting on why people don't hassle Blizzard. Secondly, Blizzards card game is not the same as SOE's.
S
Blizzard's game has several different facts. First, they print physical cards that you have every right to sell. You own the cards when you purchase them. Second, the in game cards do not give you an in game advantage. When one accidently did (the normal movement rate mount that accidently could be boosted like a normal mount) they went in and re-coded it to make sure it did not have an impact in the game beyond having it. Third, those cards do not have the restriction that Blizzard owns all rights to the card, or retain the right to decide wether you can sell it or not. You own the card, what you do after you purchase the pack is not thiers to decide. Fourth, you know the exact odds of getting the card you want, it is monitored and there are records of how many are printed.
Need anymore differences?
Let me also approach this in a slightly different manner. Say you bought a coke and won the SUV, But Coke's rules say they still own the vehicle, and they can do with it anything they wanted, without your concent. At any time they could reclaim it, or switch it out for a different vehicle even if you are depending on it? Where would the legality of this be in the long run?
Wow, if this information on Blizzard's card game is accurate, it clearly indicates that SOE's loot card gambit is completely different. Printed cards that you actually own? Totally different from SOE. Re-coding items so that they don't impact game play? Wow, completely different from SOE's game, and apparently their whole philosophy. Printed odds of getting cards, and odds that are independently verified? Just excellent.
Once again, I think we see evidence of why millions of people have all congregated in this one MMO. Because it works, it's fun, and the players don't get the shaft. Apparently, it's that simple.
people already have, lottery, baseball cards, blizzard card game, all legal, all similar.
and why isnt anyone hating on blizzard? oh thats right, any excuse to get at soe, i forget
Everyone hates on Blizzard for turning SWG into the craptastic game it is today.... we never forget Blizzard...
Wait -- the NGE is Blizzard's fault now?
Yes, damn them for making such a successful game!
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
people already have, lottery, baseball cards, blizzard card game, all legal, all similar.
and why isnt anyone hating on blizzard? oh thats right, any excuse to get at soe, i forget
Everyone hates on Blizzard for turning SWG into the craptastic game it is today.... we never forget Blizzard...
Wait -- the NGE is Blizzard's fault now?
Yes, damn them for making such a successful game!
It's obvious you weren't around for the Pre-CU/NGE days since this one flew over you unnoticed.
The reason why a bunch of SWG players (former and still current) dislike Blizzard is due to Blizzard's huge success with WoW. A bunch of SOE developers took note of WoW's elements and figured to completely revamp SWG to primitively mimic WoW's gameplay, while completely forsaking the-then-current gameplay style of SWG, not to mention the current playerbase of the time. The NGE has alot of roots from WoW. If you were around before the NGE, **especially before the CU**, then you would know the difference and similarities of SWG in its history compared to WoW. You'd also remember the uproar from the players when the CU came out and the sound of the exit door swinging furiously when the NGE came out.
Like I said, if you were around for the Pre-CU/NGE days, you'd know why.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I hate defending this game. I really do, but I hate misinformation even more. Gambling: Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.
You are NOT making a wager (something risked or staked on an uncertain event). You are purchasing a pack of virtual online trading cards. You pay money for the cards and you receive them. Just because there is a chance that you might not get the specific card you want does not make it "illegal" or "gambling". If that was the case, then Baseball cards would be "illegal". Yes it's a great big middle finger to the customers. Yes expect to see all good future loot come through the TCG. Yes it seems like a last ditch effort by SOE to squeeze every last cent of out their customers. I thought it was a stupid idea when I first heard it but you all (who are still subbed) need to find better ways to fight this than trying to make false claims that will go nowhere. You want to make an impact? Cancel your account. That is what gets SOE's attention. Other than that, do not expect them to change their stance on this.
Well, people aren't trying to get certain cards for the TCG, they are trying to get loot items for StarWars Galaxies. These loot items having nothing to do with the card game itself. They are just dangled for SWG players to gamble for them, with real cash. Here's the definition of online gambling if you like, according to recent U.S. legislation: "So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
You make it sound like people are just unhappy with the TCG card they got, as if the "loot items" are a part of that game. They aren't.
You also make it sound as if the prize must be cash or material goods in order for it to be gambling. The law seems much broader in its language (see above). What seems to be the issue is the risk of real cash on a chance outcome.
At best, the loot items are a product promotional gone wrong. If Tim Horton's role up the rim coffee promotional was done like the loot cards this would be like people buying hundreds of dollars of Tim Horton's coffee, hoping to win an SUV. That would be gambling for the SUV.
Of course, Tim Horton's follows the laws about these things. They publish the exact odds regarding available prizes, and they allow customers to participate in the promotional without making a purchase, at all. There is a no purchase necessary clause attached to the promotional contest. This prevents the scenario I just described (people buying coffee cups just to win the prize).
Unlike Tim Horton's, in the TCG, people are buying the card packs (sometimes wasting hundreds of dollars) hoping to win the prize of an SWG loot item. Unlike Tim Horton's, SOE does not provide odds, officially. If they change this, their odds still aren't verified by an independent party. Also, unlike Tim Horton's in order to win the loot, money MUST change hands. There is not a "no purchase required clause" in this contest.
It certainly seems like paying hundreds of dollars for the random chance of a loot item embedded in the TCG fits the definition of online gambling. If it's some kind of product promotional, it seems to not follow the regulations for those either.
However you look at it, this is certainly not people purchasing trading cards packs and being unhappy with the trading cards they got, at all. Remember the loot items people are gambling for are not part of the trading card game itself.
I know that people are seeking clarity on this from the proper authorities. It certainly seems to contradict the laws and regulations for the U.S.. Hopefully we'll get some confirmation one way or the other soon.
Most people agree that this is an unethical cash grab. What remains to be seen is if SOE's legal consultants missed a beat this time.
So everytime you buy some Coke, you're gambling because you have a "Chance to Win $100,000!!!"? Or playing the monopoly game at McDonalds, gambling away your money on those McNuggets...tsk tsk... You are not anywhere near capable of interpreting any type of law beyond the standard penal code, so leave it at that. It is far from illegal, and far from ethical. The difference is that being unethical and unwanted does NOT make it illegal. Don't take my word for it though, call up your local law professors. Ask them. Call a judge or two, ask them. Call some lawyers even, desperate as they are to "win you some money," they will tell you in more words what I have told you.
Please note that all of the Coke promotionals that you're referring to have a "NO PURCHASE NECESSARY" clause.
They also provide you with your chance of winning or losing. This is what is legally required in the U.S. and Canada to prevent them from being gambling.
The first thing you'll notice is that the exact odds of winning each prize are provided.
The second thing you'll notice if you click on the rules and redemption tab is that there is no purchase necessary to participate in the promotional. You can participate without giving Tim Horton's any money whatsoever.
This is why buying a Coke, or a Tim Horton's coffee, in Canada or the U.S. isn't gambling. SOE's loot items do not follow these regulations it would seem. Does that clarify the difference?
No it wont clarify the difference for most readers on MMORPG.com. Not even with your good explanation. You know why? You used too many sentences, so they skip your post.
All they want to talk about is : TCG has cards, so do other trading card games. So its not gambling.
Or the other popular option : SOE suxxors and tries to destroy the world.
I hate defending this game. I really do, but I hate misinformation even more. Gambling: Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.
You are NOT making a wager (something risked or staked on an uncertain event). You are purchasing a pack of virtual online trading cards. You pay money for the cards and you receive them. Just because there is a chance that you might not get the specific card you want does not make it "illegal" or "gambling". If that was the case, then Baseball cards would be "illegal". Yes it's a great big middle finger to the customers. Yes expect to see all good future loot come through the TCG. Yes it seems like a last ditch effort by SOE to squeeze every last cent of out their customers. I thought it was a stupid idea when I first heard it but you all (who are still subbed) need to find better ways to fight this than trying to make false claims that will go nowhere. You want to make an impact? Cancel your account. That is what gets SOE's attention. Other than that, do not expect them to change their stance on this.
Well, people aren't trying to get certain cards for the TCG, they are trying to get loot items for StarWars Galaxies. These loot items having nothing to do with the card game itself. They are just dangled for SWG players to gamble for them, with real cash. Here's the definition of online gambling if you like, according to recent U.S. legislation: "So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
You make it sound like people are just unhappy with the TCG card they got, as if the "loot items" are a part of that game. They aren't.
You also make it sound as if the prize must be cash or material goods in order for it to be gambling. The law seems much broader in its language (see above). What seems to be the issue is the risk of real cash on a chance outcome.
At best, the loot items are a product promotional gone wrong. If Tim Horton's role up the rim coffee promotional was done like the loot cards this would be like people buying hundreds of dollars of Tim Horton's coffee, hoping to win an SUV. That would be gambling for the SUV.
Of course, Tim Horton's follows the laws about these things. They publish the exact odds regarding available prizes, and they allow customers to participate in the promotional without making a purchase, at all. There is a no purchase necessary clause attached to the promotional contest. This prevents the scenario I just described (people buying coffee cups just to win the prize).
Unlike Tim Horton's, in the TCG, people are buying the card packs (sometimes wasting hundreds of dollars) hoping to win the prize of an SWG loot item. Unlike Tim Horton's, SOE does not provide odds, officially. If they change this, their odds still aren't verified by an independent party. Also, unlike Tim Horton's in order to win the loot, money MUST change hands. There is not a "no purchase required clause" in this contest.
It certainly seems like paying hundreds of dollars for the random chance of a loot item embedded in the TCG fits the definition of online gambling. If it's some kind of product promotional, it seems to not follow the regulations for those either.
However you look at it, this is certainly not people purchasing trading cards packs and being unhappy with the trading cards they got, at all. Remember the loot items people are gambling for are not part of the trading card game itself.
I know that people are seeking clarity on this from the proper authorities. It certainly seems to contradict the laws and regulations for the U.S.. Hopefully we'll get some confirmation one way or the other soon.
Most people agree that this is an unethical cash grab. What remains to be seen is if SOE's legal consultants missed a beat this time.
So everytime you buy some Coke, you're gambling because you have a "Chance to Win $100,000!!!"? Or playing the monopoly game at McDonalds, gambling away your money on those McNuggets...tsk tsk... You are not anywhere near capable of interpreting any type of law beyond the standard penal code, so leave it at that. It is far from illegal, and far from ethical. The difference is that being unethical and unwanted does NOT make it illegal. Don't take my word for it though, call up your local law professors. Ask them. Call a judge or two, ask them. Call some lawyers even, desperate as they are to "win you some money," they will tell you in more words what I have told you.
Please note that all of the Coke promotionals that you're referring to have a "NO PURCHASE NECESSARY" clause.
They also provide you with your chance of winning or losing. This is what is legally required in the U.S. and Canada to prevent them from being gambling.
The first thing you'll notice is that the exact odds of winning each prize are provided.
The second thing you'll notice if you click on the rules and redemption tab is that there is no purchase necessary to participate in the promotional. You can participate without giving Tim Horton's any money whatsoever.
This is why buying a Coke, or a Tim Horton's coffee, in Canada or the U.S. isn't gambling. SOE's loot items do not follow these regulations it would seem. Does that clarify the difference?
No it wont clarify the difference for most readers on MMORPG.com. Not even with your good explanation. You know why? You used too many sentences, so they skip your post.
All they want to talk about is : TCG has cards, so do other trading card games. So its not gambling.
Or the other popular option : SOE suxxors and tries to destroy the world.
SOE is merely saying "Give us $5 (using that number as example because I have no idea how much it is) for a pack of virtual trading cards used in the virtual trading card GAME and you have the possibility to ALSO receive a loot card."
You give them the $5, they give you the virtual trading cards as advertised and obviously some do receive the loot cards. There is nothing illegal. Just because you do not receive a loot card with every pack or the specific loot card you want doesn't make it illegal. Just because they added loot cards in with the virtual cards doesn't make it illegal.
Common sense here people. Not that hard to understand....
You are still getting something for the payment, you just have a chance to get something special. I don't see how this is any different than buying a pack of baseball cards hoping to get an all star or rookie card, or buying one of those card games from wow or magic and hoping for something really good.
It's pnly because it is soe, and people LOVE to be the friggen focal point of the "hate soe bandwagon". Maybe they don't get enough love at home? enough recognition at work? who knows....but it is NO different than the above examples.
Why don't we see this with Blizzard and their card game, or the fact they charge you $15 bucks for a makeover on your character which every other mmorpg it is free (from a real cash strandpoint)? Because it is SOE
No, not misinformed, stupid or trying to provoke a response. In possession of the facts? I most certainly am, and you, most certainly, are not.
S
What a strange response.
I personally could not care less what 'facts' you think you have that I do not. What would be required is evidence, and I'm confident that you have none.
In all honesty, these little crusades against SOE provide great entertainment for me, and I encourage you to keep it up.
I've addressed the OP directly and I have no interest in arguing with you, Sharkypal. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but I would suggest not trying to claim them as fact. Take care
I suggest you avail yourself of US state and federal law. I dont doubt its legal in the UK (what isnt). I dont "think" I have facts and I can assure you that this is being thouroughly investigated. Im glad that SOE's continuous abuse of its customers amuses you but I would suggest you go and troll elsewhere.
If you have anything useful to contribute, feel free. Otherwise, keep your silly comments to yourself.
Evidence has been provided on numerous occasions.
S
Anyone spending $$$ on a TCG to try and get loot for a game needs to be out that money..
whats the old say A fool and his money will soon be parted.
Just don't be a fool and waste your money especially on a dead game like SWG
Assassin's like to do it in the dark and from behind.
Comments
If they put free all-star game tickets in random packs in order to sell more it would be the same. People buy baseball cards because they want the cards. People buy TCG packs because they want the in-game loot...not some great card to play the card game with. Surely you see the difference.
But they DO put extra stuff in baseball card packs. Thus, invalid argument.
Like?
Jersey cards, limited-edition autographed stuff and crap like that.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
If they put free all-star game tickets in random packs in order to sell more it would be the same. People buy baseball cards because they want the cards. People buy TCG packs because they want the in-game loot...not some great card to play the card game with. Surely you see the difference.
But they DO put extra stuff in baseball card packs. Thus, invalid argument.
That doesn't make it an invalid argument. Applying your community college Philosophy class learnings is appreciated, but keep it legitimate. What he says is exactly true. He described a situation in which the terms would be the same as the formentioned situation, it just so happens that the situation he describes does exist, and really only furthers his point; that the two situations would indeed be the same.
Ah, "community college philosophy class." Cute.
Sorry, but you guys are full of shit. I don't like the TCG, but it's not illegal. End of fucking story.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
I call them like I see them. Thanks for ending it for us.
A dyslexic man walked into a bra.
Yeah but this is actually a computer generated roll, not luck of the draw. Not to mention the fact it’s all just virtual shit, you spend money on it it’s a gamble. It’s just like the Casinos in Second Life, sure the fun may have been in the game, but it was set up to make someone rich, even if it was just for virtual items. They were seriously outlawed by the FBI in Second Life, no Joke. They still pop up from time to time, but if Linden Labs finds out; they shut the whole sim down and freeze the account in question as well as the people who dumped money into the machines.
Do you guys have those Raffle tickets the Lotteries do over the holidays, you know, only 250 thousand sold ect and you get the chance to win stuff. Or how about those lottery tickets that give you a chance to win a truck? It's a lottery no matter what the intended use of the card may be, whether as a playing card or cup coaster. It should either be, no purchase necessary to win, or they need to change the age limit on this card game. I think these are the arguments being used. I'm no sure how this will all play out, if anything both sides have a pretty decent arguement.
Yeah but this is actually a computer generated roll, not luck of the draw. Not to mention the fact it’s all just virtual shit, you spend money on it it’s a gamble. It’s just like the Casinos in Second Life, sure the fun may have been in the game, but it was set up to make someone rich, even if it was just for virtual items. They were seriously outlawed by the FBI in Second Life, no Joke. They still pop up from time to time, but if Linden Labs finds out; they shut the whole sim down and freeze the account in question as well as the people who dumped money into the machines.
Do you guys have those Raffle tickets the Lotteries do over the holidays, you know, only 250 thousand sold ect and you get the chance to win stuff. Or how about those lottery tickets that give you a chance to win a truck? It's a lottery no matter what the intended use of the card may be, whether as a playing card or cup coaster. It should either be, no purchase necessary to win, or they need to change the age limit on this card game. I think these are the arguments being used. I'm no sure how this will all play out, if anything both sides have a pretty decent arguement.
You fail to understand the concept here. When you buy a lottery ticket, you are not paying for the piece of paper AND a chance to win, JUST the chance to win. The paper has no value. What is happening here is the purchase of a good, which has value assigned to it on its own. Money, for the cards. Anything else is a chance to win something extra, at their whim, however they "randomly" assign the items. You are not paying for the item, nor are you losing anything if you do not receive one. There is no loss, therefore there is no lawsuit. Both sides do not have "good" arguements, legally. Only SOE does. However the ethics of this can be discussed all day long.
A dyslexic man walked into a bra.
It is illegal and its also legal. Lets take the state of Nevada for instance and why they cant do tournaments and give prizes out to Nevada citizens. They have to first register with the gaming commision there so it is regulated. The TCG card game is not regulated by anyone exept SOE. This is why one of the states there menitoning like Nevada cant participate in alot of things. So by them eliminating the states that have laws on the books about gambling and registering events prizes etc with gaming commision's there legal.
Unless someone out there can produce violations that SOE is doing with state laws that is in violation of current gambling laws they are totally legal in operating in each state that allows it. Im all for finding violations that SOE is doing with the TCG card game but they have really covered there butts it looks like with what states they can or can not operate this ungoverned chance game they call the TCG.
Well, people aren't trying to get certain cards for the TCG, they are trying to get loot items for StarWars Galaxies. These loot items having nothing to do with the card game itself. They are just dangled for SWG players to gamble for them, with real cash. Here's the definition of online gambling if you like, according to recent U.S. legislation: "So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
You make it sound like people are just unhappy with the TCG card they got, as if the "loot items" are a part of that game. They aren't.
You also make it sound as if the prize must be cash or material goods in order for it to be gambling. The law seems much broader in its language (see above). What seems to be the issue is the risk of real cash on a chance outcome.
At best, the loot items are a product promotional gone wrong. If Tim Horton's role up the rim coffee promotional was done like the loot cards this would be like people buying hundreds of dollars of Tim Horton's coffee, hoping to win an SUV. That would be gambling for the SUV.
Of course, Tim Horton's follows the laws about these things. They publish the exact odds regarding available prizes, and they allow customers to participate in the promotional without making a purchase, at all. There is a no purchase necessary clause attached to the promotional contest. This prevents the scenario I just described (people buying coffee cups just to win the prize).
Unlike Tim Horton's, in the TCG, people are buying the card packs (sometimes wasting hundreds of dollars) hoping to win the prize of an SWG loot item. Unlike Tim Horton's, SOE does not provide odds, officially. If they change this, their odds still aren't verified by an independent party. Also, unlike Tim Horton's in order to win the loot, money MUST change hands. There is not a "no purchase required clause" in this contest.
It certainly seems like paying hundreds of dollars for the random chance of a loot item embedded in the TCG fits the definition of online gambling. If it's some kind of product promotional, it seems to not follow the regulations for those either.
However you look at it, this is certainly not people purchasing trading cards packs and being unhappy with the trading cards they got, at all. Remember the loot items people are gambling for are not part of the trading card game itself.
I know that people are seeking clarity on this from the proper authorities. It certainly seems to contradict the laws and regulations for the U.S.. Hopefully we'll get some confirmation one way or the other soon.
Most people agree that this is an unethical cash grab. What remains to be seen is if SOE's legal consultants missed a beat this time.
So everytime you buy some Coke, you're gambling because you have a "Chance to Win $100,000!!!"? Or playing the monopoly game at McDonalds, gambling away your money on those McNuggets...tsk tsk... You are not anywhere near capable of interpreting any type of law beyond the standard penal code, so leave it at that. It is far from illegal, and far from ethical. The difference is that being unethical and unwanted does NOT make it illegal. Don't take my word for it though, call up your local law professors. Ask them. Call a judge or two, ask them. Call some lawyers even, desperate as they are to "win you some money," they will tell you in more words what I have told you.
Please note that all of the Coke promotionals that you're referring to have a "NO PURCHASE NECESSARY" clause.
They also provide you with your chance of winning or losing. This is what is legally required in the U.S. and Canada to prevent them from being gambling.
Here's an example of this kind of promotional if you want to compare this to the loot items. It is completely different: http://www.rolluptherimtowin.com/en/prizes.php
The first thing you'll notice is that the exact odds of winning each prize are provided.
The second thing you'll notice if you click on the rules and redemption tab is that there is no purchase necessary to participate in the promotional. You can participate without giving Tim Horton's any money whatsoever.
This is why buying a Coke, or a Tim Horton's coffee, in Canada or the U.S. isn't gambling. SOE's loot items do not follow these regulations it would seem. Does that clarify the difference?
haters will be haters i guess......
no point in arguing it....it's not illegal.
Prove your point instead of declaring a non existant fact.
S
people already have, lottery, baseball cards, blizzard card game, all legal, all similar.
and why isnt anyone hating on blizzard? oh thats right, any excuse to get at soe, i forget
No they havent and Blizzard doesn't have a record of screwing their customers. See the difference?
Didnt think so.
S
No they havent and Blizzard doesn't have a record of screwing their customers. See the difference?
Didnt think so.
S
Completely irrelevant.
SOE's history has NO bearing on whether or not the TCG is "illegal."
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
No they havent and Blizzard doesn't have a record of screwing their customers. See the difference?
Didnt think so.
S
Completely irrelevant.
SOE's history has NO bearing on whether or not the TCG is "illegal."
I wasnt commenting on the legality, I was commenting on why people don't hassle Blizzard. Secondly, Blizzards card game is not the same as SOE's.
S
No they havent and Blizzard doesn't have a record of screwing their customers. See the difference?
Didnt think so.
S
Completely irrelevant.
SOE's history has NO bearing on whether or not the TCG is "illegal."
I wasnt commenting on the legality, I was commenting on why people don't hassle Blizzard. Secondly, Blizzards card game is not the same as SOE's.
S
Blizzard's game has several different facts. First, they print physical cards that you have every right to sell. You own the cards when you purchase them. Second, the in game cards do not give you an in game advantage. When one accidently did (the normal movement rate mount that accidently could be boosted like a normal mount) they went in and re-coded it to make sure it did not have an impact in the game beyond having it. Third, those cards do not have the restriction that Blizzard owns all rights to the card, or retain the right to decide wether you can sell it or not. You own the card, what you do after you purchase the pack is not thiers to decide. Fourth, you know the exact odds of getting the card you want, it is monitored and there are records of how many are printed.
Need anymore differences?
Let me also approach this in a slightly different manner. Say you bought a coke and won the SUV, But Coke's rules say they still own the vehicle, and they can do with it anything they wanted, without your concent. At any time they could reclaim it, or switch it out for a different vehicle even if you are depending on it? Where would the legality of this be in the long run?
Everyone hates on Blizzard for turning SWG into the craptastic game it is today.... we never forget Blizzard...
No they havent and Blizzard doesn't have a record of screwing their customers. See the difference?
Didnt think so.
S
Completely irrelevant.
SOE's history has NO bearing on whether or not the TCG is "illegal."
I wasnt commenting on the legality, I was commenting on why people don't hassle Blizzard. Secondly, Blizzards card game is not the same as SOE's.
S
Blizzard's game has several different facts. First, they print physical cards that you have every right to sell. You own the cards when you purchase them. Second, the in game cards do not give you an in game advantage. When one accidently did (the normal movement rate mount that accidently could be boosted like a normal mount) they went in and re-coded it to make sure it did not have an impact in the game beyond having it. Third, those cards do not have the restriction that Blizzard owns all rights to the card, or retain the right to decide wether you can sell it or not. You own the card, what you do after you purchase the pack is not thiers to decide. Fourth, you know the exact odds of getting the card you want, it is monitored and there are records of how many are printed.
Need anymore differences?
Let me also approach this in a slightly different manner. Say you bought a coke and won the SUV, But Coke's rules say they still own the vehicle, and they can do with it anything they wanted, without your concent. At any time they could reclaim it, or switch it out for a different vehicle even if you are depending on it? Where would the legality of this be in the long run?
Wow, if this information on Blizzard's card game is accurate, it clearly indicates that SOE's loot card gambit is completely different. Printed cards that you actually own? Totally different from SOE. Re-coding items so that they don't impact game play? Wow, completely different from SOE's game, and apparently their whole philosophy. Printed odds of getting cards, and odds that are independently verified? Just excellent.
Once again, I think we see evidence of why millions of people have all congregated in this one MMO. Because it works, it's fun, and the players don't get the shaft. Apparently, it's that simple.
This never had a place in Smeds agenda.
Everyone hates on Blizzard for turning SWG into the craptastic game it is today.... we never forget Blizzard...
Wait -- the NGE is Blizzard's fault now?
Yes, damn them for making such a successful game!
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
Everyone hates on Blizzard for turning SWG into the craptastic game it is today.... we never forget Blizzard...
Wait -- the NGE is Blizzard's fault now?
Yes, damn them for making such a successful game!
It's obvious you weren't around for the Pre-CU/NGE days since this one flew over you unnoticed.
The reason why a bunch of SWG players (former and still current) dislike Blizzard is due to Blizzard's huge success with WoW. A bunch of SOE developers took note of WoW's elements and figured to completely revamp SWG to primitively mimic WoW's gameplay, while completely forsaking the-then-current gameplay style of SWG, not to mention the current playerbase of the time. The NGE has alot of roots from WoW. If you were around before the NGE, **especially before the CU**, then you would know the difference and similarities of SWG in its history compared to WoW. You'd also remember the uproar from the players when the CU came out and the sound of the exit door swinging furiously when the NGE came out.
Like I said, if you were around for the Pre-CU/NGE days, you'd know why.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Smed and Julio Torres admitted to playing WoW.
Well, people aren't trying to get certain cards for the TCG, they are trying to get loot items for StarWars Galaxies. These loot items having nothing to do with the card game itself. They are just dangled for SWG players to gamble for them, with real cash. Here's the definition of online gambling if you like, according to recent U.S. legislation: "So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
You make it sound like people are just unhappy with the TCG card they got, as if the "loot items" are a part of that game. They aren't.
You also make it sound as if the prize must be cash or material goods in order for it to be gambling. The law seems much broader in its language (see above). What seems to be the issue is the risk of real cash on a chance outcome.
At best, the loot items are a product promotional gone wrong. If Tim Horton's role up the rim coffee promotional was done like the loot cards this would be like people buying hundreds of dollars of Tim Horton's coffee, hoping to win an SUV. That would be gambling for the SUV.
Of course, Tim Horton's follows the laws about these things. They publish the exact odds regarding available prizes, and they allow customers to participate in the promotional without making a purchase, at all. There is a no purchase necessary clause attached to the promotional contest. This prevents the scenario I just described (people buying coffee cups just to win the prize).
Unlike Tim Horton's, in the TCG, people are buying the card packs (sometimes wasting hundreds of dollars) hoping to win the prize of an SWG loot item. Unlike Tim Horton's, SOE does not provide odds, officially. If they change this, their odds still aren't verified by an independent party. Also, unlike Tim Horton's in order to win the loot, money MUST change hands. There is not a "no purchase required clause" in this contest.
It certainly seems like paying hundreds of dollars for the random chance of a loot item embedded in the TCG fits the definition of online gambling. If it's some kind of product promotional, it seems to not follow the regulations for those either.
However you look at it, this is certainly not people purchasing trading cards packs and being unhappy with the trading cards they got, at all. Remember the loot items people are gambling for are not part of the trading card game itself.
I know that people are seeking clarity on this from the proper authorities. It certainly seems to contradict the laws and regulations for the U.S.. Hopefully we'll get some confirmation one way or the other soon.
Most people agree that this is an unethical cash grab. What remains to be seen is if SOE's legal consultants missed a beat this time.
So everytime you buy some Coke, you're gambling because you have a "Chance to Win $100,000!!!"? Or playing the monopoly game at McDonalds, gambling away your money on those McNuggets...tsk tsk... You are not anywhere near capable of interpreting any type of law beyond the standard penal code, so leave it at that. It is far from illegal, and far from ethical. The difference is that being unethical and unwanted does NOT make it illegal. Don't take my word for it though, call up your local law professors. Ask them. Call a judge or two, ask them. Call some lawyers even, desperate as they are to "win you some money," they will tell you in more words what I have told you.
Please note that all of the Coke promotionals that you're referring to have a "NO PURCHASE NECESSARY" clause.
They also provide you with your chance of winning or losing. This is what is legally required in the U.S. and Canada to prevent them from being gambling.
Here's an example of this kind of promotional if you want to compare this to the loot items. It is completely different: http://www.rolluptherimtowin.com/en/prizes.php
The first thing you'll notice is that the exact odds of winning each prize are provided.
The second thing you'll notice if you click on the rules and redemption tab is that there is no purchase necessary to participate in the promotional. You can participate without giving Tim Horton's any money whatsoever.
This is why buying a Coke, or a Tim Horton's coffee, in Canada or the U.S. isn't gambling. SOE's loot items do not follow these regulations it would seem. Does that clarify the difference?
No it wont clarify the difference for most readers on MMORPG.com. Not even with your good explanation. You know why? You used too many sentences, so they skip your post.
All they want to talk about is : TCG has cards, so do other trading card games. So its not gambling.
Or the other popular option : SOE suxxors and tries to destroy the world.
/rant off
Well, people aren't trying to get certain cards for the TCG, they are trying to get loot items for StarWars Galaxies. These loot items having nothing to do with the card game itself. They are just dangled for SWG players to gamble for them, with real cash. Here's the definition of online gambling if you like, according to recent U.S. legislation: "So I googled internet gambling laws in the U.S. and this is what I found. Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance."
You make it sound like people are just unhappy with the TCG card they got, as if the "loot items" are a part of that game. They aren't.
You also make it sound as if the prize must be cash or material goods in order for it to be gambling. The law seems much broader in its language (see above). What seems to be the issue is the risk of real cash on a chance outcome.
At best, the loot items are a product promotional gone wrong. If Tim Horton's role up the rim coffee promotional was done like the loot cards this would be like people buying hundreds of dollars of Tim Horton's coffee, hoping to win an SUV. That would be gambling for the SUV.
Of course, Tim Horton's follows the laws about these things. They publish the exact odds regarding available prizes, and they allow customers to participate in the promotional without making a purchase, at all. There is a no purchase necessary clause attached to the promotional contest. This prevents the scenario I just described (people buying coffee cups just to win the prize).
Unlike Tim Horton's, in the TCG, people are buying the card packs (sometimes wasting hundreds of dollars) hoping to win the prize of an SWG loot item. Unlike Tim Horton's, SOE does not provide odds, officially. If they change this, their odds still aren't verified by an independent party. Also, unlike Tim Horton's in order to win the loot, money MUST change hands. There is not a "no purchase required clause" in this contest.
It certainly seems like paying hundreds of dollars for the random chance of a loot item embedded in the TCG fits the definition of online gambling. If it's some kind of product promotional, it seems to not follow the regulations for those either.
However you look at it, this is certainly not people purchasing trading cards packs and being unhappy with the trading cards they got, at all. Remember the loot items people are gambling for are not part of the trading card game itself.
I know that people are seeking clarity on this from the proper authorities. It certainly seems to contradict the laws and regulations for the U.S.. Hopefully we'll get some confirmation one way or the other soon.
Most people agree that this is an unethical cash grab. What remains to be seen is if SOE's legal consultants missed a beat this time.
So everytime you buy some Coke, you're gambling because you have a "Chance to Win $100,000!!!"? Or playing the monopoly game at McDonalds, gambling away your money on those McNuggets...tsk tsk... You are not anywhere near capable of interpreting any type of law beyond the standard penal code, so leave it at that. It is far from illegal, and far from ethical. The difference is that being unethical and unwanted does NOT make it illegal. Don't take my word for it though, call up your local law professors. Ask them. Call a judge or two, ask them. Call some lawyers even, desperate as they are to "win you some money," they will tell you in more words what I have told you.
Please note that all of the Coke promotionals that you're referring to have a "NO PURCHASE NECESSARY" clause.
They also provide you with your chance of winning or losing. This is what is legally required in the U.S. and Canada to prevent them from being gambling.
Here's an example of this kind of promotional if you want to compare this to the loot items. It is completely different: http://www.rolluptherimtowin.com/en/prizes.php
The first thing you'll notice is that the exact odds of winning each prize are provided.
The second thing you'll notice if you click on the rules and redemption tab is that there is no purchase necessary to participate in the promotional. You can participate without giving Tim Horton's any money whatsoever.
This is why buying a Coke, or a Tim Horton's coffee, in Canada or the U.S. isn't gambling. SOE's loot items do not follow these regulations it would seem. Does that clarify the difference?
No it wont clarify the difference for most readers on MMORPG.com. Not even with your good explanation. You know why? You used too many sentences, so they skip your post.
All they want to talk about is : TCG has cards, so do other trading card games. So its not gambling.
Or the other popular option : SOE suxxors and tries to destroy the world.
/rant off
QFT.
S
Ok one last try.
SOE is merely saying "Give us $5 (using that number as example because I have no idea how much it is) for a pack of virtual trading cards used in the virtual trading card GAME and you have the possibility to ALSO receive a loot card."
You give them the $5, they give you the virtual trading cards as advertised and obviously some do receive the loot cards. There is nothing illegal. Just because you do not receive a loot card with every pack or the specific loot card you want doesn't make it illegal. Just because they added loot cards in with the virtual cards doesn't make it illegal.
Common sense here people. Not that hard to understand....
QFT
You are still getting something for the payment, you just have a chance to get something special. I don't see how this is any different than buying a pack of baseball cards hoping to get an all star or rookie card, or buying one of those card games from wow or magic and hoping for something really good.
It's pnly because it is soe, and people LOVE to be the friggen focal point of the "hate soe bandwagon". Maybe they don't get enough love at home? enough recognition at work? who knows....but it is NO different than the above examples.
Why don't we see this with Blizzard and their card game, or the fact they charge you $15 bucks for a makeover on your character which every other mmorpg it is free (from a real cash strandpoint)? Because it is SOE
No, not misinformed, stupid or trying to provoke a response. In possession of the facts? I most certainly am, and you, most certainly, are not.
S
What a strange response.
I personally could not care less what 'facts' you think you have that I do not. What would be required is evidence, and I'm confident that you have none.
In all honesty, these little crusades against SOE provide great entertainment for me, and I encourage you to keep it up.
I've addressed the OP directly and I have no interest in arguing with you, Sharkypal. You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but I would suggest not trying to claim them as fact. Take care
I suggest you avail yourself of US state and federal law. I dont doubt its legal in the UK (what isnt). I dont "think" I have facts and I can assure you that this is being thouroughly investigated. Im glad that SOE's continuous abuse of its customers amuses you but I would suggest you go and troll elsewhere.
If you have anything useful to contribute, feel free. Otherwise, keep your silly comments to yourself.
Evidence has been provided on numerous occasions.
S
Anyone spending $$$ on a TCG to try and get loot for a game needs to be out that money..
whats the old say A fool and his money will soon be parted.
Just don't be a fool and waste your money especially on a dead game like SWG
Assassin's like to do it in the dark and from behind.