Posters here talk about "subscriptions" without even thinking of what that means exactly. There was one poster above who really made my day. He stated "well until October 2008 Wow only could add 1.000.000 new subscribers to its base". Forgetting to say .... that in that period during a p
Nope, you're right. Blizzard didn't put out an expansion. But they did spend more money on advertising during that period than what most mmorpg developers spend on an expansion. Funny how the Mr. T, William Shatner adds popped up during this period isn't it? Though I think my comments are lost on you.
Maybe the advertising has helped WoW continue its success and growth and maybe not. The game was already breaking records and growing at unthought of rates before the TV spots and such. It was already eating up the market before all the advertising that so many claim is the games reason for success. Plenty of other games have had their advertising and hype.
Something often overlooking is that advertising will only get people to try your game. It won't make them stay.
Also consider this: every other major MMO released since WoW save maybe one, has gotten anywhere from respectable to record breaking subscribers in its first few weeks/months. Each one of them has in turn lost well over half their subscribers in an equal time. Server merger after server merger after server merger. All the marketing in the world wouldn't change that.
People try WoW and continue to play it for a long time. People try other games and leave within a few weeks. This isn't the effect of marketing and advertising.
P.S. MMOCHARTS.CON took a significant period of time off tracking MMOs which is why there are flat spots in most of his tracking for a period of time.
There's just one problem with your argument. How do you get to be #1 in the FIRST place? You seem to think it just happens by mere accident. You're wrong. It's no accident that WoW is #1. No, it didn't have 12 million subscribers from day 1, but it had around a million or so and at the time that was huge. Then they continued to add subscriptions at an equally astonishing rate to where they had around 4 million by about the 6 month mark.
Wow has 11 million subscribers and it just hit that recenetly and it took them almost a year to go from 10 million to 11 million. I started playing WoW in June 2005 and it just hit 3 million subscribers worldwide soon after I started playing. It was mid 2005 through to last 2006 where WoW had its biggest growth.
Not according to MMogchart.com. I can't really tell you who's right you or him, but since he's published his findings and has extensive documentation on how he gets his numbers, I tend to believe him. Edit: WoW hit 3.5 million worldwide subs in July 2005 and they hit 5 million in December. It didn't hit 6 million until March 2006. It got more in it's first 8 months than it did in the next 8 months or at any other 8 month stretch of time in it's history.
You think that was some kind of accident? You're fooling yourself. They had a great product and it got around and people joined in because it was great fun, not because of advertising or anything else. In the first couple months of WoW, there wasn't any more advertising for WoW than any other MMO, it was only after it became a smash hit did Blizzard start advertising the game big time when Blizzard knew they had a hit on their hands.
Wrong. WoW had the biggest and most hyped launch of any mmorpg at that time. It was widely advertised in the gaming scene and mags and web sites. In late 2004 I was also playing Enemy Territory and had nothing to do with the mmorpg scene and even I knew about WoW though I was a fan of the RTS warcraft series.
At that time maybe, but compared to say Warhammer Online or AoC? Nuh-uh. WoW had no where near as much pub as Warhammer or AoC got because the MMO genre frankly wasn't much to talk about before WoW. The fact that you knew about it doesn't really say much. If publicity had anything at all to do with it then Warhammer or AoC should be #1 right now, right?
It's fine and dandy to say, well everyone else is doing it, but you can only say that after everyone else IS doing it.
You're right. WoW was a great game back in 2005 when I started playing. Your argument holds up until the advertising drastically increased in late 2006/early 2007and WoW started getting mainstream press.
What does that have to do with anything? My point is they didn't get to be #1 because of advertising alone. You agree with me there. I don't know where my argument fails.
Pappy, I know you're the great fanboi protector of all that is WoW around here which is fine, someone has to balance the argument. But who do you think flocked to wow at the start? It was the EQ/SWG/UO/AO players. It was "hardcore" mmorpg players that you despise so much. This was in the day when casuals didn't know what an mmorpg was. By mid 2005 non mmorpg gamers started migrating to WoW through world of mouth. I was part of that.
First let's get one thing straight, I've got nothing against the hard core folks. Everyone is free to play the game anyway they wish, I just recognize the fact that not everyone is hard core and just because a game caters to the casual player that doesn't somehow make it an inferior product. Just the reverse actually. It's pretty amazing that WoW can be popular with the hard core and casual at the same time. That's one of it's greatest features.
And it wasn't just the hard core that flocked to the game. Now maybe there weren't a lot of non MMO players in the first week or 2, but about a month in it was obvious to all that it was a smash hit and people started joining in to see what the fuss was about. That's when all my FPS friends started playing. You can't deny that it brought in a lot of folks that simply were not playing MMO's prior to then. That's a great achievement no matter how you slice it.
You want to know what it's even better than advertising? Word of mouth and having a great product. I have a group of friends that I have been playing video games with for several years now. A few months before WoW launched we were all playing Enemy Territory together and having an absolute blast ...
But isn't word of mouth another form of "everyone else is doing it"? But if WoW was crap then people would have left the game but they didn't. So again I agree with you that WoW's early success had to do with it being good.
And continues to be the number 1 reason that people play it. Sure, advertising might get someone to purchase the game, but advertising doesn't keep you playing. Look at Warhammer and AoC. They SOLD a lot of copies of the game, but when it came time for those people to subscribe, a lot of them said no thanks. That's NOT what happened with WoW initially. All the poeple that bought the game (for whatever reason advertising or not) subscribed. And they told their friends and they told their friends and so on and so on. That's not advertising, that an endorsement. There's a HUGE difference. Advertising is bought and paid for. An unsolicited endorsement from a friend of yours is a totally different animal.
At launch WoW was mostly other mmorpg players, Warcraft RTS fans, Diablo 2/Battle.net players and a few FPS players. But I doubt very few of WoW's subscribers at the 6 month mark had never played an mmorpg or a Blizzard game.
I think you'd be wrong. At least half the people that I was playing with at that time had never played an MMO before or they had tried an MMO and didn't subscribe. WoW changed their minds about subscribing.
Second half of 2005 saw another big jump in WoW players as gamers from other genres migrated to WoW. But like me these people were more dedicated than your typical xbox or single player gamer. A lot of these people were active in other gaming communities. This big jump in 2nd half of 2005 caught Blizzard by suprise. They thought that WoW would slow down after being out for 1 year.
No, the second half of 2005's growth can mainly be attributed to WoW's launch in China where they were VERY familiar with MMO's. Look at the the curve for Lineage and Lineage II subscribers in 2005. WoW had an amazing effect on their subscription growth. Both dropped out of the sky.
You people just don't get it. No, 12 million subscriptions doesn't equal quality. But quality does equal subscriptions, and I know thousands of satisfied customers.
Your argument holds true for the first 18 months of WoW and I agree. But look at http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart11.html. You can see that by mid to late 2006 WoW was starting to flatten out and this is where the advertising really started to be ramped up. From April 2006 to July 2006 there was not much growth, Europe wasnt increasing at all, Asia was slowing down dramatically and North America had a small, but noticeable decline in the rate of growth.
Um, hello? So WoW had an almost straight up growth for 18 months and then started to flatten out and this is SURPRISING to you? Of course at some point it's going to flatten out a bit as practically everyone and their grandmother had played it by then. The upturn that happens at the end of 2006 and the beginning of 2007 was due to the release of the expansion the Burning Crusade.
For example at July 06 Europe was almost 1 million subscibers behind North America. By Jan 07 (and the release of BC) it was only a few hundred thousand behind.Now the advertising that was done at the launch of WoW was virtually all in North America. Europe had very little advertising but that changed for Burning Crusade where advertising for that started appearing in Europe. As I said before I agree with you that WoW's success for the first 18 months was largely due to it being a good game. Its why I started playing it. But once a game has been out for 2 years you would think world of mouth and good reviews of a game stop being a factor in getting people to play since everyone knows about the game by then. Unless you've been living in a cave on the Pakistan-Afghan you would have heard about WoW after 2 years. How does your argument that the main factor influencing people to play WoW is that its a great game apply to someone who has only just recently started playing? It takes someone FOUR YEARS to work out that a game is worth playing and is good???
Sorry, but you've totally lost me now. WoW continues to bring in new subscribers all the time. How do I know this? Because they have more subsribers now then they had just 6 months ago and they've LOST a TON of people during that time who've quit playing. Like I've already stated, anyone can walk into a store and purchase the box to take it home on Christmas for a present. Box sales don't prove a damn thing. What proves the person likes the game is when they choose to SUBSCRIBE. Then you know they have been playing for at least a few days and they like it. You can't argue with that. You honestly think people subscribe to a game they DON'T like? And if they like it, it's a good game, regardless of what anyone else thinks, because good and bad is all subjective anyway.
Originally posted by Pappy13 Sorry, but you've totally lost me now. WoW continues to bring in new subscribers all the time. How do I know this? Because they have more subsribers now then they had just 6 months ago and they've LOST a TON of people during that time who've quit playing. Like I've already stated, anyone can walk into a store and purchase the box to take it home on Christmas for a present. Box sales don't prove a damn thing. What proves the person likes the game is when they choose to SUBSCRIBE. Then you know they have been playing for at least a few days and they like it. You can't argue with that. You honestly think people subscribe to a game they DON'T like? And if they like it, it's a good game, regardless of what anyone else thinks, because good and bad is all subjective anyway.
Firstly Pappy, you were wrong about the 12 million subscribers. mmogchat predicted that WoW will peak at 12 million. The guy who runs the site has not updated it for a long time. Its still showing 10 million WoW subscribers. Blizzard only just released that they had hit 11.5 "million subscribers". And by subscribers I'm also including those players in China who might only pay a dollar or two a month.
Ok, you're linking the total amount of WoW subscribers as an argument to back up a claim that no one who play WoWs are cancelling their accounts and that everyone loves the game. Thats not accurate and is a specious argument. What we do know is that there are currently 11.5 million WoW players. What we don't know is the RETENTION RATES of WoW. Blizzard has never RELEASED THIS INFORMATION. Blizzard have never released the sales figures of original WoW. I use original WoW because even if someone only started playing in BC or WotLK they still have to purchase the original. While in your mind box sales are not important, in reality they are.
In your mind it is perfectly feasible to link a large amount of subscribers with high retention rates and happy customers, the two do not go hand in hand as perfectly as you think. Is every Hollywood blockbuster movie loved? What we do know is that the rate of new customers is higher than that of customers cancelling their accounts. But that does not indicate the amount of people cancelling. Just that more new people are coming than going. Nor does it indicate the average subscription length before someone cancels.
And the reason the WoW subscriber figure is getting higher is because of advertising. Blizzard is spending massive amounts of money on advertising. Advertising can bring in more new people than the number of people who are unhappy with WoW and leave. Yes, those unhappy players who leave have not only purchased the box but also a subscription but the fact that AoC and Warhammer managed to sell a lot of boxes but a low amount of subscriptions has no relevance to WoW. Again you are linking two unrelated topics.
Blizzard are using advertising to reach non-traditional mmorpg gamers whereas AoC and Warhammer targeted mmorpg gamers - people with very clear thoughts on what an mmorpg should be as opposed to the people Blizzard are targeting. Its easier to please someone with no expectations (new WoW players) than someone with very high expectations (Aoc and WAR).
Credit to Blizzard. They realise there is no point in trying to convert players from other mmorpg's (contrary to believe there are still hundreds of thousands of paying mmorpg players who dont play WoW) but rather to use advertising to break into new markets and demographics. And that is why WoW will remain at the top for years to come.
Sure floppy, but you still prove his point. Marketing or not, happy players stay, unhappy players leave, and there is still more happy players than unhappy ones.
Unless you want to argue that WoW is a worse game than any other p2p MMO out there just because it has more unhappy players than any other MMO out there and completely ignoring the fact that it also has more happy players too.
Firstly Pappy, you were wrong about the 12 million subscribers. mmogchat predicted that WoW will peak at 12 million. The guy who runs the site has not updated it for a long time. Its still showing 10 million WoW subscribers. Blizzard only just released that they had hit 11.5 "million subscribers". And by subscribers I'm also including those players in China who might only pay a dollar or two a month. Sorry, 11.5 million. Sorry for rounding up. Ok, you're linking the total amount of WoW subscribers as an argument to back up a claim that no one who play WoWs are cancelling their accounts and that everyone loves the game. Actually you misunderstood, because I stated right there that TONS of people cancel their accounts ALL the time. That's why that 11.5 million number is so impressive. That's not 11.5 million subscriptions since Nov 23, 2004, that 11.5 million ACTIVE subscribers. It doesn't include all the people that have bought the box and didn't subscribe nor the people that subscribed at one time but have since cancelled. I never said that everyone loves the game. Thats not accurate and is a specious argument. What we do know is that there are currently 11.5 million WoW players. What we don't know is the RETENTION RATES of WoW. Blizzard has never RELEASED THIS INFORMATION. Blizzard have never released the sales figures of original WoW. What? Here ya go. (Sorry, I don't have a link) "WORLD OF WARCRAFT® SHATTERS DAY-ONE SALES RECORDS Blizzard's newest title becomes North America's fastest-selling PC game ever, with record number of accounts created and concurrent players in first 24 hours
IRVINE, Calif. - December 1, 2004 - Blizzard Entertainment® today confirmed that World of Warcraft® has broken day-one sales records in North America, making it the most successful PC game launch ever. World of Warcraft, the company's subscription-based massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG), sold through to over 240,000 customers at retailers in North America on Tuesday, November 23, selling more in its first 24 hours than any other PC game in history.* In addition to shattering sales records, World of Warcraft also broke peak concurrency and account creation records for a MMORPG. Within the first day, over 200,000 players created World of Warcraft accounts. By 5:00 p.m. PST, over 100,000 were playing the game concurrently. These two record-breaking numbers made World of Warcraft the fastest-growing MMORPG in history. Within a single day, all original 40+ World of Warcraft servers were filled to capacity, and by the end of the Thanksgiving weekend, more than 40 additional servers were deployed to meet the rapidly growing player base, as the number of new accounts and concurrent users continued to grow. "We were all extremely pleased with the success of World of Warcraft on its first day of launch," said Mike Morhaime, president of Blizzard Entertainment. "Once we saw the numbers for the first day, we knew that we had to immediately increase capacity to accommodate the huge numbers of players joining our game. We're glad so many people are enjoying World of Warcraft, and we are dedicated to supporting a fun and smooth game experience for everyone." Retailers across North America reported that the World of Warcraft launch was unequivocally their biggest day-one sales in PC gaming history. Leading industry retailers, such as Wal-Mart, Best Buy, EB, and GameStop, all reported that hundreds of their stores sold out of World of Warcraft within the first day. "World of Warcraft has once again shown that Blizzard consistently delivers the best games in the industry," said Robert McKenzie, vice president of merchandising at GameStop. "It sold better than any other PC game this year - in fact, World of Warcraft enjoyed the best day-one sell-through GameStop has ever seen on a PC title!" Over the Thanksgiving weekend, players continued to buy World of Warcraft in record numbers, with a total of over 350,000* copies of the game selling through. Blizzard Entertainment and its retail partners expect the remaining supplies of World of Warcraft to sell out soon. Blizzard is currently evaluating its ability to ship additional games to retailers, given the unexpectedly high demand on the servers. The company continues to increase server capacity to accommodate the growing number of players connecting to the game. As the additional servers are brought online and proven stable, additional copies of World of Warcraft will be made available at retail. Blizzard will announce the availability of those additional games as soon as they are on shelves. " I use original WoW because even if someone only started playing in BC or WotLK they still have to purchase the original. While in your mind box sales are not important, in reality they are. Box sales don't tell you how many people end up subscribing and they are absolutely terrible for predicting a successful MMORPG. Original WoW only sold about 350K boxes it's first week, AoC and Warhammer did about 2 or 3 times better. Yet a few months later WoW had a couple million subscribers while AoC and Warhammer have a couple hundred thousand. Blizzard actually ran out of boxes to sell and had to stop sales while they created another batch of them. People think that WoW was like AoC and Warhammer and expected to sell millions of copies of their game. They didn't. They didn't know it was gonna be a huge success either and they were weren't prepared for it to be the success that it was. That's why they had to double the number of servers in the first week. Yes of course you have to buy the box to be able to play (or get a key some way) that's why it continues to hold a spot in the top 20 of game sales month to month, but just buying the box doesn't mean you LIKE the game. Only a subscription tells you that. In your mind it is perfectly feasible to link a large amount of subscribers with high retention rates and happy customers, the two do not go hand in hand as perfectly as you think. You're putting words in my mouth. I NEVER said that WoW had high retention rates, I said it's adding new subscribers CONSTANTLY, which it is and THAT is the reason that it continues to be #1 in subscribers and THAT is how I know that people like it. Is every Hollywood blockbuster movie loved? Apples to Oranges. You don't know if you will like a movie when you purchase the ticket, a ticket sale doesn't prove a damn thing. However a subscription means you have already played the game and are willing to pay to continue to play it. What we do know is that the rate of new customers is higher than that of customers cancelling their accounts. But that does not indicate the amount of people cancelling. Just that more new people are coming than going. Nor does it indicate the average subscription length before someone cancels. Yeah, 4 years later they are still coming and in greater numbers than are leaving, while brand new games like AoC and Warhammer which also advertised their game extensively can't seem to do the same thing (I think I saw more Warhammer commercials than WoW commercials in the months leading up to it's release) . That about sums it up right there. Thanks for making my argument for me. And the reason the WoW subscriber figure is getting higher is because of advertising. Bullshit. Advertising effects box sales, not subscriptions. That's my whole argument and what you have failed to grasp. No one SUBSCRIBES because of advertising, they subscribe because they are already playing and they want to continue to play it. And yes, Blizzard does count those people that are within the first 30 days after they have bought the game, so techically they haven't subscribed yet, but if they DON'T subscribe then the next month they won't count in the number of subscribers, so that number is CONSTANTLY changing as NEW people buy the game and others quit. Blizzard is spending massive amounts of money on advertising. Advertising can bring in more new people than the number of people who are unhappy with WoW and leave. For a limited time. There are only so many people you can sell the game to. There's NOT an endless supply. If they brought in 11.5 million NEW players every month, they would have extinguished that supply a LONG time ago. Yes, those unhappy players who leave have not only purchased the box but also a subscription but the fact that AoC and Warhammer managed to sell a lot of boxes but a low amount of subscriptions has no relevance to WoW. Again you are linking two unrelated topics. Whatever. Yeah I guess WoW and AoC and Warhammer have nothing in common. You're delusional. You don't subscribe when you buy the game, you subscribe a month later after your 30 days are up and you want to continue playing. If you quit, then you're not counted as an active subscriber. Blizzard are using advertising to reach non-traditional mmorpg gamers whereas AoC and Warhammer targeted mmorpg gamers - people with very clear thoughts on what an mmorpg should be as opposed to the people Blizzard are targeting. Its easier to please someone with no expectations (new WoW players) than someone with very high expectations (Aoc and WAR). Blizzard is advertising their game and Warhammer and AoC are not because Blizzard is making a TON of money while Warhammer and AoC are not. That's the difference. If AoC or Warhammer were doing well, we would be seeing a TON of advertising. They don't advertise because they can't afford to. Blizzard can. Credit to Blizzard. Yes, credit to Blizzard for making a game that millions of people have enjoyed.
Firstly Pappy, you were wrong about the 12 million subscribers. mmogchat predicted that WoW will peak at 12 million. The guy who runs the site has not updated it for a long time. Its still showing 10 million WoW subscribers. Blizzard only just released that they had hit 11.5 "million subscribers". And by subscribers I'm also including those players in China who might only pay a dollar or two a month. Sorry, 11.5 million. Sorry for rounding up. Ok, you're linking the total amount of WoW subscribers as an argument to back up a claim that no one who play WoWs are cancelling their accounts and that everyone loves the game. Actually you misunderstood, because I stated right there that TONS of people cancel their accounts ALL the time. That's why that 11.5 million number is so impressive. That's not 11.5 million subscriptions since Nov 23, 2004, that 11.5 million ACTIVE subscribers. It doesn't include all the people that have bought the box and didn't subscribe nor the people that subscribed at one time but have since cancelled. I never said that everyone loves the game.
Right. So you're saying Blizzard are WASTING millions on advertising and that everyone comes to WoW is not influenced by advertising. Ok.
And you're argument that they STAY because the game is good ... HALO 3 sold 8 million copies ON THE XBOX ALONE. Factor in the sales HALO and HALO 2 and the fact they cost a lot more to buy and less to develop THEN HALO MUST BE THE GREATEST GAME OF ALL TIME! I mean, the fact that the HALO series keep selling well is an indication that is a perfect game, like WoW!
The Sims must be the greatest PC game of all time. Look at how well it sells AND KEEPS SELLING. Thanks for pointing that out to me, pappy. I shall go out and buy every sims game and expansion because they MUST be good if people keep buying them, right? I mean, if the first Sims sold a lot of copies but was crap why would people keep buying all those sequels and expansions?
Do you know who Phil Knight is, pappy? Yeah, he founded Nike and ran it for a long time. But if you said that Nike sold shoes and clothing he would correct you. Nike sold an image. Have you ever worked in or studied advertising, Pappy? How does Coca-Cola advertise? Is Coke the best tasting soft drink of all time? Look at how the fashion industry works. Look at how the whole of the entertainment industry works.
Pappy, most of the people coming to WoW have not only not played another mmorpg THEY DONT EVEN KNOW OF ANOTHER MMORPG. Its always easier to please the ignorant than the well educated. Ignorance is bliss, pappy.
Also, should I see High School Musical 3, pappy? I mean, it was very popular and if the first one was crap then people wouldn't have seen the second of third would they now?
Your President George Bush must be a pretty good! You re-elected him. I mean, if he was a crap president then he would have lost the 2004 election, right?
Its not like the masses are gullible sheep. Oh, no! People always make well informed decisions about EVERYTHING.
Wow, pappy. You're reasoning is perfect and flawless!
Originally posted by floppyfaceRight. So you're saying Blizzard are WASTING millions on advertising and that everyone comes to WoW is not influenced by advertising. Ok. And you're argument that they STAY because the game is good ... HALO 3 sold 8 million copies ON THE XBOX ALONE. Factor in the sales HALO and HALO 2 and the fact they cost a lot more to buy and less to develop THEN HALO MUST BE THE GREATEST GAME OF ALL TIME! I mean, the fact that the HALO series keep selling well is an indication that is a perfect game, like WoW! The Sims must be the greatest PC game of all time. Look at how well it sells AND KEEPS SELLING. Thanks for pointing that out to me, pappy. I shall go out and buy every sims game and expansion because they MUST be good if people keep buying them, right? I mean, if the first Sims sold a lot of copies but was crap why would people keep buying all those sequels and expansions? Do you know who Phil Knight is, pappy? Yeah, he founded Nike and ran it for a long time. But if you said that Nike sold shoes and clothing he would correct you. Nike sold an image. Have you ever worked in or studied advertising, Pappy? How does Coca-Cola advertise? Is Coke the best tasting soft drink of all time? Look at how the fashion industry works. Look at how the whole of the entertainment industry works. Pappy, most of the people coming to WoW have not only not played another mmorpg THEY DONT EVEN KNOW OF ANOTHER MMORPG. Its always easier to please the ignorant than the well educated. Ignorance is bliss, pappy. Also, should I see High School Musical 3, pappy? I mean, it was very popular and if the first one was crap then people wouldn't have seen the second of third would they now? Your President George Bush must be a pretty good! You re-elected him. I mean, if he was a crap president then he would have lost the 2004 election, right? Its not like the masses are gullible sheep. Oh, no! People always make well informed decisions about EVERYTHING. Wow, pappy. You're reasoning is perfect and flawless!
Except other MMORPGs should actually be better GAMES ( and by that I mean games, not worlds, not economy simulators, not realistic representations of real life mechanics or visuals, but the whole package) for your argument to make any sense.
Oh, you dragged Bush into this argument, that's right after Hitler, insta lose.
Except other MMORPGs should actually be better GAMES ( and by that I mean games, not worlds, not economy simulators, not realistic representations of real life mechanics or visuals, but the whole package) for your argument to make any sense.
Oh, you dragged Bush into this argument, that's right after Hitler, insta lose.
Why do you even bother to post? You write nothing but idiotic crap. At least Pappy puts some effort into his fanboism. You just fail in every regard. Time for me to use that ignore buttom.
Except other MMORPGs should actually be better GAMES ( and by that I mean games, not worlds, not economy simulators, not realistic representations of real life mechanics or visuals, but the whole package) for your argument to make any sense.
Oh, you dragged Bush into this argument, that's right after Hitler, insta lose.
Why do you even bother to post? You write nothing but idiotic crap. At least Pappy puts some effort into his fanboism. You just fail in every regard. Time for me to use that ignore buttom.
I could always make up shit like you and pretend it's fact.
Except other MMORPGs should actually be better GAMES ( and by that I mean games, not worlds, not economy simulators, not realistic representations of real life mechanics or visuals, but the whole package) for your argument to make any sense.
Oh, you dragged Bush into this argument, that's right after Hitler, insta lose.
Why do you even bother to post? You write nothing but idiotic crap. At least Pappy puts some effort into his fanboism. You just fail in every regard. Time for me to use that ignore buttom.
I could always make up shit like you and pretend it's fact.
Lol, I was just about to write the same.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Comments
Nope, you're right. Blizzard didn't put out an expansion. But they did spend more money on advertising during that period than what most mmorpg developers spend on an expansion. Funny how the Mr. T, William Shatner adds popped up during this period isn't it? Though I think my comments are lost on you.
Maybe the advertising has helped WoW continue its success and growth and maybe not. The game was already breaking records and growing at unthought of rates before the TV spots and such. It was already eating up the market before all the advertising that so many claim is the games reason for success. Plenty of other games have had their advertising and hype.
Something often overlooking is that advertising will only get people to try your game. It won't make them stay.
Also consider this: every other major MMO released since WoW save maybe one, has gotten anywhere from respectable to record breaking subscribers in its first few weeks/months. Each one of them has in turn lost well over half their subscribers in an equal time. Server merger after server merger after server merger. All the marketing in the world wouldn't change that.
People try WoW and continue to play it for a long time. People try other games and leave within a few weeks. This isn't the effect of marketing and advertising.
P.S. MMOCHARTS.CON took a significant period of time off tracking MMOs which is why there are flat spots in most of his tracking for a period of time.
Wow has 11 million subscribers and it just hit that recenetly and it took them almost a year to go from 10 million to 11 million. I started playing WoW in June 2005 and it just hit 3 million subscribers worldwide soon after I started playing. It was mid 2005 through to last 2006 where WoW had its biggest growth.
Not according to MMogchart.com. I can't really tell you who's right you or him, but since he's published his findings and has extensive documentation on how he gets his numbers, I tend to believe him. Edit: WoW hit 3.5 million worldwide subs in July 2005 and they hit 5 million in December. It didn't hit 6 million until March 2006. It got more in it's first 8 months than it did in the next 8 months or at any other 8 month stretch of time in it's history.
http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200411/N04.1104.1727.45648.html
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Originally posted by Pappy13
You think that was some kind of accident? You're fooling yourself. They had a great product and it got around and people joined in because it was great fun, not because of advertising or anything else. In the first couple months of WoW, there wasn't any more advertising for WoW than any other MMO, it was only after it became a smash hit did Blizzard start advertising the game big time when Blizzard knew they had a hit on their hands.
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Wrong. WoW had the biggest and most hyped launch of any mmorpg at that time. It was widely advertised in the gaming scene and mags and web sites. In late 2004 I was also playing Enemy Territory and had nothing to do with the mmorpg scene and even I knew about WoW though I was a fan of the RTS warcraft series.
At that time maybe, but compared to say Warhammer Online or AoC? Nuh-uh. WoW had no where near as much pub as Warhammer or AoC got because the MMO genre frankly wasn't much to talk about before WoW. The fact that you knew about it doesn't really say much. If publicity had anything at all to do with it then Warhammer or AoC should be #1 right now, right?
You're right. WoW was a great game back in 2005 when I started playing. Your argument holds up until the advertising drastically increased in late 2006/early 2007and WoW started getting mainstream press.
What does that have to do with anything? My point is they didn't get to be #1 because of advertising alone. You agree with me there. I don't know where my argument fails.
Pappy, I know you're the great fanboi protector of all that is WoW around here which is fine, someone has to balance the argument. But who do you think flocked to wow at the start? It was the EQ/SWG/UO/AO players. It was "hardcore" mmorpg players that you despise so much. This was in the day when casuals didn't know what an mmorpg was. By mid 2005 non mmorpg gamers started migrating to WoW through world of mouth. I was part of that.
First let's get one thing straight, I've got nothing against the hard core folks. Everyone is free to play the game anyway they wish, I just recognize the fact that not everyone is hard core and just because a game caters to the casual player that doesn't somehow make it an inferior product. Just the reverse actually. It's pretty amazing that WoW can be popular with the hard core and casual at the same time. That's one of it's greatest features.
And it wasn't just the hard core that flocked to the game. Now maybe there weren't a lot of non MMO players in the first week or 2, but about a month in it was obvious to all that it was a smash hit and people started joining in to see what the fuss was about. That's when all my FPS friends started playing. You can't deny that it brought in a lot of folks that simply were not playing MMO's prior to then. That's a great achievement no matter how you slice it.
But isn't word of mouth another form of "everyone else is doing it"? But if WoW was crap then people would have left the game but they didn't. So again I agree with you that WoW's early success had to do with it being good.
And continues to be the number 1 reason that people play it. Sure, advertising might get someone to purchase the game, but advertising doesn't keep you playing. Look at Warhammer and AoC. They SOLD a lot of copies of the game, but when it came time for those people to subscribe, a lot of them said no thanks. That's NOT what happened with WoW initially. All the poeple that bought the game (for whatever reason advertising or not) subscribed. And they told their friends and they told their friends and so on and so on. That's not advertising, that an endorsement. There's a HUGE difference. Advertising is bought and paid for. An unsolicited endorsement from a friend of yours is a totally different animal.
At launch WoW was mostly other mmorpg players, Warcraft RTS fans, Diablo 2/Battle.net players and a few FPS players. But I doubt very few of WoW's subscribers at the 6 month mark had never played an mmorpg or a Blizzard game.
I think you'd be wrong. At least half the people that I was playing with at that time had never played an MMO before or they had tried an MMO and didn't subscribe. WoW changed their minds about subscribing.
Second half of 2005 saw another big jump in WoW players as gamers from other genres migrated to WoW. But like me these people were more dedicated than your typical xbox or single player gamer. A lot of these people were active in other gaming communities. This big jump in 2nd half of 2005 caught Blizzard by suprise. They thought that WoW would slow down after being out for 1 year.
No, the second half of 2005's growth can mainly be attributed to WoW's launch in China where they were VERY familiar with MMO's. Look at the the curve for Lineage and Lineage II subscribers in 2005. WoW had an amazing effect on their subscription growth. Both dropped out of the sky.
Your argument holds true for the first 18 months of WoW and I agree. But look at http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart11.html. You can see that by mid to late 2006 WoW was starting to flatten out and this is where the advertising really started to be ramped up. From April 2006 to July 2006 there was not much growth, Europe wasnt increasing at all, Asia was slowing down dramatically and North America had a small, but noticeable decline in the rate of growth.
Sorry, but you've totally lost me now. WoW continues to bring in new subscribers all the time. How do I know this? Because they have more subsribers now then they had just 6 months ago and they've LOST a TON of people during that time who've quit playing. Like I've already stated, anyone can walk into a store and purchase the box to take it home on Christmas for a present. Box sales don't prove a damn thing. What proves the person likes the game is when they choose to SUBSCRIBE. Then you know they have been playing for at least a few days and they like it. You can't argue with that. You honestly think people subscribe to a game they DON'T like? And if they like it, it's a good game, regardless of what anyone else thinks, because good and bad is all subjective anyway.
Firstly Pappy, you were wrong about the 12 million subscribers. mmogchat predicted that WoW will peak at 12 million. The guy who runs the site has not updated it for a long time. Its still showing 10 million WoW subscribers. Blizzard only just released that they had hit 11.5 "million subscribers". And by subscribers I'm also including those players in China who might only pay a dollar or two a month.
Ok, you're linking the total amount of WoW subscribers as an argument to back up a claim that no one who play WoWs are cancelling their accounts and that everyone loves the game. Thats not accurate and is a specious argument. What we do know is that there are currently 11.5 million WoW players. What we don't know is the RETENTION RATES of WoW. Blizzard has never RELEASED THIS INFORMATION. Blizzard have never released the sales figures of original WoW. I use original WoW because even if someone only started playing in BC or WotLK they still have to purchase the original. While in your mind box sales are not important, in reality they are.
In your mind it is perfectly feasible to link a large amount of subscribers with high retention rates and happy customers, the two do not go hand in hand as perfectly as you think. Is every Hollywood blockbuster movie loved? What we do know is that the rate of new customers is higher than that of customers cancelling their accounts. But that does not indicate the amount of people cancelling. Just that more new people are coming than going. Nor does it indicate the average subscription length before someone cancels.
And the reason the WoW subscriber figure is getting higher is because of advertising. Blizzard is spending massive amounts of money on advertising. Advertising can bring in more new people than the number of people who are unhappy with WoW and leave. Yes, those unhappy players who leave have not only purchased the box but also a subscription but the fact that AoC and Warhammer managed to sell a lot of boxes but a low amount of subscriptions has no relevance to WoW. Again you are linking two unrelated topics.
Blizzard are using advertising to reach non-traditional mmorpg gamers whereas AoC and Warhammer targeted mmorpg gamers - people with very clear thoughts on what an mmorpg should be as opposed to the people Blizzard are targeting. Its easier to please someone with no expectations (new WoW players) than someone with very high expectations (Aoc and WAR).
Credit to Blizzard. They realise there is no point in trying to convert players from other mmorpg's (contrary to believe there are still hundreds of thousands of paying mmorpg players who dont play WoW) but rather to use advertising to break into new markets and demographics. And that is why WoW will remain at the top for years to come.
Sure floppy, but you still prove his point. Marketing or not, happy players stay, unhappy players leave, and there is still more happy players than unhappy ones.
Unless you want to argue that WoW is a worse game than any other p2p MMO out there just because it has more unhappy players than any other MMO out there and completely ignoring the fact that it also has more happy players too.
Right. So you're saying Blizzard are WASTING millions on advertising and that everyone comes to WoW is not influenced by advertising. Ok.
And you're argument that they STAY because the game is good ... HALO 3 sold 8 million copies ON THE XBOX ALONE. Factor in the sales HALO and HALO 2 and the fact they cost a lot more to buy and less to develop THEN HALO MUST BE THE GREATEST GAME OF ALL TIME! I mean, the fact that the HALO series keep selling well is an indication that is a perfect game, like WoW!
The Sims must be the greatest PC game of all time. Look at how well it sells AND KEEPS SELLING. Thanks for pointing that out to me, pappy. I shall go out and buy every sims game and expansion because they MUST be good if people keep buying them, right? I mean, if the first Sims sold a lot of copies but was crap why would people keep buying all those sequels and expansions?
Do you know who Phil Knight is, pappy? Yeah, he founded Nike and ran it for a long time. But if you said that Nike sold shoes and clothing he would correct you. Nike sold an image. Have you ever worked in or studied advertising, Pappy? How does Coca-Cola advertise? Is Coke the best tasting soft drink of all time? Look at how the fashion industry works. Look at how the whole of the entertainment industry works.
Pappy, most of the people coming to WoW have not only not played another mmorpg THEY DONT EVEN KNOW OF ANOTHER MMORPG. Its always easier to please the ignorant than the well educated. Ignorance is bliss, pappy.
Also, should I see High School Musical 3, pappy? I mean, it was very popular and if the first one was crap then people wouldn't have seen the second of third would they now?
Your President George Bush must be a pretty good! You re-elected him. I mean, if he was a crap president then he would have lost the 2004 election, right?
Its not like the masses are gullible sheep. Oh, no! People always make well informed decisions about EVERYTHING.
Wow, pappy. You're reasoning is perfect and flawless!
Except other MMORPGs should actually be better GAMES ( and by that I mean games, not worlds, not economy simulators, not realistic representations of real life mechanics or visuals, but the whole package) for your argument to make any sense.
Oh, you dragged Bush into this argument, that's right after Hitler, insta lose.
Oh, you dragged Bush into this argument, that's right after Hitler, insta lose.
Why do you even bother to post? You write nothing but idiotic crap. At least Pappy puts some effort into his fanboism. You just fail in every regard. Time for me to use that ignore buttom.
Oh, you dragged Bush into this argument, that's right after Hitler, insta lose.
Why do you even bother to post? You write nothing but idiotic crap. At least Pappy puts some effort into his fanboism. You just fail in every regard. Time for me to use that ignore buttom.
I could always make up shit like you and pretend it's fact.
WoW "dose" what?
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Oh, you dragged Bush into this argument, that's right after Hitler, insta lose.
Why do you even bother to post? You write nothing but idiotic crap. At least Pappy puts some effort into his fanboism. You just fail in every regard. Time for me to use that ignore buttom.
I could always make up shit like you and pretend it's fact.
Lol, I was just about to write the same.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I wish I could vote for Bush again.
ZING!!