It's apparent that part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel. Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO). The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel. Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system. 1. Exploits - Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed. How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends. How fast do most games take to fix an exploit? A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it? UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'. Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed. Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit. 2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above. If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad. 3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town. It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill. Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out. In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town. Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing. Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town. This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel. Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason. The same thing will happen in Darkfall. Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 4. Don't come late to the party - This kind of goes with #3. But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress. The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them. This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early. I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch. But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did. New players won't renew 5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do. Class balance in PvP is almost impossible. How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time. In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class. 6. Bring your friends - full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands. This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on? And again, what about new players? UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF. 1. New players won't last the first month
2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly. 'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic. Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.
3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played. UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm.
4. Gear grinding - You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear. There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset. If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game
Yes thats a nice long detailed description of how open PvP did not work in Ultima Online......yeah that game thats 10 years old. Just because that old game used FFA PvP doesnt mean it will be anything like Darkfall. They are totally different games so stop being so predictable and comparing the two of them purely because you dont have any other examples to compare it with. You could just as easily use EVE as an example of how PvP can work in a game. Yes congratulations some games in tbe past have failed and some have succeeded. So whats your point? UO didnt do it well so it will be the same for any other FFA PvP game? Use your brain.
You said "There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset."
Well its a good thing that Darkfall is using Darkfalls ruleset then isnt it which has absolutely NOTHING to do with Ultima Online as thats a totally different game with a totally different ruleset........oh yeah and its 10 years old as well lol.
Trammel was a kneejerk reaction because they got scared people would leave the game for EQ. Also the official forums started getting hammered by the "carebear" crowd who wanted the game changed for them. Out of fear of subscription loss they panicked and doubled the playing world 100%. When people started playing and realized people were to spread out the opposite of what they tried to prevent happened. People left and sub #s never really went back up to the way they were before or right after Trammel.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
It's apparent that part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel. Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO). The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel. Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system. 1. Exploits - Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed. How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends. How fast do most games take to fix an exploit? A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it? UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'. Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed. Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit. 2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above. If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad. 3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town. It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill. Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out. In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town. Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing. Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town. This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel. Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason. The same thing will happen in Darkfall. Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 4. Don't come late to the party - This kind of goes with #3. But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress. The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them. This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early. I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch. But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did. New players won't renew 5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do. Class balance in PvP is almost impossible. How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time. In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class. 6. Bring your friends - full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands. This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on? And again, what about new players? UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF. 1. New players won't last the first month
2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly. 'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic. Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.
3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played. UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm.
4. Gear grinding - You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear. There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset. If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game
Yes thats a nice long detailed description of how open PvP did not work in Ultima Online......yeah that game thats 10 years old. Just because that old game used FFA PvP doesnt mean it will be anything like Darkfall. They are totally different games so stop being so predictable and comparing the two of them purely because you dont have any other examples to compare it with. You could just as easily use EVE as an example of how PvP can work in a game. Yes congratulations some games in tbe past have failed and some have succeeded. So whats your point? UO didnt do it well so it will be the same for any other FFA PvP game? Use your brain.
You said "There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset."
Well its a good thing that Darkfall is using Darkfalls ruleset then isnt it which has absolutely NOTHING to do with Ultima Online as thats a totally different game with a totally different ruleset........oh yeah and its 10 years old as well lol.
There are so many problems with the points the op makes I'm not going to try to correct him, and yeah WoW didn't fail because Asheron's Call 2 failed, did it?
Originally posted by metalhead980 It took me less then two minutes to get back to my body with no durability hit. I didnt need to buy new gear, I have virtually no downtime. I was like "Ok, so when you kill me I lose nothing? LOL!"
But you are losing something, your time. This is exactly the same thing that you lose in a ffa full loot game.
Think about what you are saying here. Say for instance you finally looted this uber epic xtra rare sword off a Boss that you have been trying to get for over a week. Now comes the gankin scenarios as you are traveling home with your new found treasure:
WoW: You get killed and get sent back to a graveyard. You res with loot intact, hey he actually did me a favor.
UO: You get killed. You roam around as a ghost looking for a roaming healer. Once you find one the killer then proceeds to continue to kill you again with the uber epic super rare sword that you spent all that time trying to obtain.
Yes essentially time is what you are losing, but one I am willing to live with and continue playing, the other I am not.
Originally posted by metalhead980 It took me less then two minutes to get back to my body with no durability hit. I didnt need to buy new gear, I have virtually no downtime. I was like "Ok, so when you kill me I lose nothing? LOL!"
But you are losing something, your time. This is exactly the same thing that you lose in a ffa full loot game.
Same as in L2. You didn't usually lose any gear (sometimes you did though) but you lost experience. The experience hit you took grew exponentially as your level got higher. Getting killed at level 60+ could be a loss of a few days to a week's worth of grinding. A very high penalty indeed in time lost.
Only problem with that scenario, clix, is that, I believe it's been said, just about every item in DF will be craftable. I highly doubt there is going to be some Awesome Uber Deathsword that you might have to farm an instance for weeks to drop. The way I read it is that DF will not be a gear based game.. There might be some pretty nice weapon loot drops, but from what the devs have been saying, it's probably not going to be incredibly better then a crafted sword. I think they're trying to make a pvp game where he who has the better skill(s)/reflexes/strategy will be the victor, not the one who spends the most time gearing up their character.
Only problem with that scenario, clix, is that, I believe it's been said, just about every item in DF will be craftable. I highly doubt there is going to be some Awesome Uber Deathsword that you might have to farm an instance for weeks to drop. The way I read it is that DF will not be a gear based game.. There might be some pretty nice weapon loot drops, but from what the devs have been saying, it's probably not going to be incredibly better then a crafted sword. I think they're trying to make a pvp game where he who has the better skill(s)/reflexes/strategy will be the victor, not the one who spends the most time gearing up their character.
That is a great idea, and I am hoping that DarkFall will be successfull. We don't need another WoW clone, but we also don't need another UO gankfest.
I respect and appreciate the thoughtful post by the OP. He uses logic and empirical data as best he can. I have to say, however, that I disagree with him on multiple points.
1. Exploits. Yes, there will be some for sure. That's the nature of every PvP MMO. It simply becomes part of the game and has never killed any MMO that I know of. Simply adapt, and use the exploit if the Devs will not fix it. Or, don't play PvP MMOs. That's not being harsh, it's the truth. Darkfall is really for an older, more mentally hardened playerbase, your 12 year old WoW addict probably will get frusterated with the game. That will not kill darkfall.
2. Lag/Crashes. No different from any harcore online game. This has full loot, sure. Loot is not that big a deal in this game, and quite simply, shit happens. Part of a hardcore environment is that real life happens sometimes. The playerbase being marketed to is an older, tougher crowd that can pick themselves up from the occasional "shit happens" and drive on. Furthermore, with FiOS growing rapidly, and cable internet speeding up to compete, this has been and will continue to be a decreasingly important factor. Back in the time of UO and AC/DT and full loot MUDs, people were on horrendous 56k modems, having their sister/brother/mother/father pick up the phone and disconnect them almost daily. Yet those games thrived.
3. Griefing noobs. There are no levels in this game, you cannot see someone's skill. Some people will hang out in noob areas waiting for rPKs to come so they can kill them and take their good shit. Anti's will protect noobs, rPKs will kill them. That's part of what makes the game what it is. If this is a downside, then this game isn't for you. People will recruit in these noob areas, offer protection, help, etc., in return for their allegiance. That's how it worked in AC/DT and I have no doubt this will be similar.
4. Coming late. Again, no levels in this game, it is skill based. Ever played an FPS with "money" like Wolfteam 2? Sure, the veterans have tricked out rifles, but I can still hand them their asses with a standard M4 because I'm simply a better gamer. Clearly in Darkfall the advantage will be much greater, but the same principle applies. An established playerbase would actually make playing far more interesting IMO, and streamline quite a few things for a new player. You would quickly learn what builds you liked, what character types you admired, where the good hunting spots were, what clan to aspire to join, how crafting works, etc. But, if you can't hack it playing catch up, then this game isn't for you.
5. Class balance. There are no classes. No reason to belabor this point, your statement simply doesn't apply to Darkfall. No classes, nothing to balance. Players will have skill decay and obtaining new skillsets is as simple as using the skill you like. No reason to cry over something when you can just as easily adapt. That will be the mentality of the older generation of gamers who will comprise much of the playerbase of Darkfall. If you can't adapt, then Darkfall isn't for you (sorry I know I'm sounding like a broken record on that, but it's true).
6. Friends. I assume your fear is being ganked? That's the whole point of the game, fear being ganked, and do some ganking. Grief and be griefed. Loot and be looted. That's where the adrenaline rush occurs, when you are 5v1 against another party and are holding your ground. Ever played an immersive melee FPS with friendly fire? Partying up to gank can be very detrimental, you have to avoid hitting one another, but your enemy has free reign to flail away knowing every blow is a good one. Play some Jedi Academy with some friends, on Team Free For All, and turn friendly fire on, and see just how careful you have to be to avoid killing your allies. Perhaps then you will understand. But again, if fighting the odds, and taking on gank parties, and risking your neck a little by going it alone in the woods is too scary for you, then this is not the game for you.
In some ways you have attacked the core of what Darkfall is, what makes those of us who are enthused want to play it. Most of your points are the essence of a PvP MMORPG. If you consider those good reasons not to play Darkfall, then it isn't your game. There are a lot of people, myself included, who consider some of those points to be exactly why we have played similar games in the past. You don't get adrenaline without risk, and you don't get risk by making sure every player has a safety net to fall back on at all times. Darkfall is not really intended for younger users who are unwilling to solve their own problems, or who cannot cope with griefing and loss. It is built for the old PvP MUDers, the UOers, the Darktiders, and it is indeed being built by them. Four of the five head devs played Darktide, and I believe the same number played UO as well. If you want to play Soccer, don't get on a field full of Rugby players, go to the soccer field. Darkfall may not be for you.
We don`t really know what would happen if they didn`t made Trammel. What we do know is that UO died when they took away full-loot.
And don`t come with that subscription thing. Back in the old days most didn`t even have the 56k internet. I had to play UO from an internetcafe at the cost of 4 $ an hour (and I played alot). And now I hear people complain about 15$ a month. I got my isdn in 1999, and I had to pay 1 $ an hour for a 56k line out, the telephone was on the other line. My phonebill was 300$, the same amount my girlfriend had. Now even my sisters mountain cabin have ADLS, so you can`t compare numbers 10 years ago.
And why do you anti-Darkfallers care anyway? You have WOW, the best PVE mmo in this decade.
you will be free to have fun or grief. It's very easy to let your imagination run wild and concoct numerous scenarios where players will be griefed. To some degree this will happen but to depict a game solely on this aspect is severly lopsided. Similarly, you can argue that one shouldn't go outside IRL because you might get ganked.
One must also consider the potential new experiences and fun that you can gain.
Well I get what OP is saying, but this is a problem with ANY mmorpg. At least in the brutality of DF's case, instead of being considered an exploit, it will be considered a fair yet boo hooo too bad for you unfair, "game mechanic". As such the possibility of actual real gameplay changing exploids, I can see the devs being VERY hard pressed to get rid of those because they do know how important good gameplay is especially with this realtime FPS/overshoulder style combat.
If there are in fact any big exploits in DF's release, the game should be "large and open ended enough" That players will learn to avoid them quite easily. Seeing how DFs selling point will mostly be its features and mechanics, they would be retarded not to concentrate on making it as un-exploitable as possible. Though I believe no game is 110% free of this problem especially from launch, but who knows only time will tell for sure.
It's apparent that part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel. Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO). The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel. Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system. 1. Exploits - Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed. How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends. How fast do most games take to fix an exploit? A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it? UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'. Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed. Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit. 2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above. If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad. 3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town. It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill. Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out. In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town. Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing. Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town. This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel. Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason. The same thing will happen in Darkfall. Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 4. Don't come late to the party - This kind of goes with #3. But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress. The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them. This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early. I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch. But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did. New players won't renew 5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do. Class balance in PvP is almost impossible. How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time. In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class. 6. Bring your friends - full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands. This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on? And again, what about new players? UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF. 1. New players won't last the first month
2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly. 'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic. Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.
3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played. UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm.
4. Gear grinding - You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear. There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset. If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game
I do agree with alot of what you said.... but most of your points is why I LIKED it. IT was a hard game.. it was a challenge. You had to be smart and on your toes. People left it because people like ezmode..... not me.
Yes ive been chased back to brit yelling GUARDS plenty of times. But I stayed on my toes and handled my business and before long I was sending many murderers to thier doom and collecting bounties. UO is a cold dark place and thats what I liked. The games nowadays are set up to preotect you and it's not just my cup of tea... I play any game on the hardest mode available...
In some ways you have attacked the core of what Darkfall is, what makes those of us who are enthused want to play it. Most of your points are the essence of a PvP MMORPG. If you consider those good reasons not to play Darkfall, then it isn't your game. There are a lot of people, myself included, who consider some of those points to be exactly why we have played similar games in the past. You don't get adrenaline without risk, and you don't get risk by making sure every player has a safety net to fall back on at all times. Darkfall is not really intended for younger users who are unwilling to solve their own problems, or who cannot cope with griefing and loss. It is built for the old PvP MUDers, the UOers, the Darktiders, and it is indeed being built by them. Four of the five head devs played Darktide, and I believe the same number played UO as well. If you want to play Soccer, don't get on a field full of Rugby players, go to the soccer field. Darkfall may not be for you.
I disagree somewhat with this last part (and the "its not for you" stuff, but agree with the entire post in general). You don't go to a pve game and say "this game will fail because you are forced to pve," the op took what DF fans wanted in a game, what we are looking for, and made them into negatives.
I disagree with the above b/c this game is more casual friendly than WoW (not as NOOB friendly though, there's a difference, n00bs will feel more lost here than in woW, but some n00bs, the ones who have brains, will feel immersed b/c there's literally a world of experience ahead of them that they can't comprehend yet). Its casual friendly b/c n00bs have the ability to kill vets. Casual players won't have to play every day to be good at combat. If the casual player has twitch skills, it can help compensate for his not so amazing equipment. In WoW the battle b/w a casual and hardcore in pvp is over before it even begins.
Who will and who won't play this game is not "casual vs hardcore", there are things that appeal to both types of players in this game. The thing that divides people on liking this game is the typeof personality that person has. This game IS NOT friendly to people who can't handle risk, and people who like to solo in mmos. Notice I didn't mention pve'ers there, this game, if successful, will have one the best pve systems to date its just that the people who primarily pve only have be able to handle risk and adjust accordingly (don't go to heavy pk areas, travel in groups etc.).
The game is also not friendly to soloers, you have the freedom to solo, sure, but this isn't WoW, a single-player online game, this is an mmo and your game life will be tougher and more dangerous soloing than grouping. Its another risk v reward thing, the rewards of soling is that, um i dunno i don't like soloing but a lot of people do so there must be some rewards in it, but the risks are that you will be an easier target to kill (but soloing is definately possible, you will have to be sneaky though and utilize the large gameworld to avoid people, kindof like if you were flagged for pk).
The types of people this game DOES appeal to are: people who like sandbox mmo's, pvp'ers, pkers, griefers, anti-griefers, crafters, pve'ers, explorers (one of the biggest and most complex game worlds is Agon), online socializers (politics will be important), and, if the game is what it says it is, the elusive fps'ers and rts'ers (who normally don't play mmo's). Assuming, of course, all of these people can handle risk.
It's apparent that part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel. Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO). The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel. Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system. 1. Exploits - Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed. How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends. How fast do most games take to fix an exploit? A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it? UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'. Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed. Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit. 2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above. If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad. 3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town. It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill. Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out. In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town. Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing. Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town. This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel. Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason. The same thing will happen in Darkfall. Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 4. Don't come late to the party - This kind of goes with #3. But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress. The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them. This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early. I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch. But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did. New players won't renew 5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do. Class balance in PvP is almost impossible. How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time. In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class. 6. Bring your friends - full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands. This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on? And again, what about new players? UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF. 1. New players won't last the first month
2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly. 'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic. Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.
3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played. UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm.
4. Gear grinding - You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear. There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset. If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game
Trammel didnt kill UO at all. Its a myth.
What killed UO was Age of Shadows with it's insurances, retarded templates and uberweapons. This can easily be read out from the MMOGCHART subs numbers. Age of Shadows made UO a totally different game then the one the old school players were used too. Trammel were nothing compared to Age of Shadows when it comes to loosing subs.
When trammel were introduced mars 2000 the numbers went up. You also have to remember that EQ, AC and DAoC took subs from UO after the introduction of trammel.
When Age of Shadows were introduced february 2003 (a carebear patch) the numbers skydived.
If you rearrange a sandbox like UO or Darkfall into something else then what the playerbase expect and learned to apprecialte from the game, like they did with the introduction of Age of Shadows, then it will start loosing it's subscribers. The core of the game has been abandoned.
Trammel made some leave felucca but many new one's arrived after they left.
I played UO from beta time and felucca was just fine with a hi population (even after trammel) until Age of Shadows were introduced february 2003. OSI powerscrolls made more players leave felucca then trammel did.
well i remember mmorpgchart.com had a chart that showed uo gained popultion after trammel.uo pre trammel greatest issue was it had very limited noob safety net so players got pked continously before they culd grow and eq was new and the new kid on the block.
so what someone said is true trammel killing uo is nothing more then a myth .just a few pkers who spam forums a lot gave people that impression.
some argue trammel killed the game but it saved it.there was always an optional world for ppl to pk but no one went to fellucia.its what happened post trammel that ruined uo
When trammel were introduced mars 2000 the numbers went up. You also have to remember that EQ, AC and DAoC took subs from UO after the introduction of trammel.
When Age of Shadows were introduced february 2003 (a carebear patch) the numbers skydived.
If you rearrange a sandbox like UO or Darkfall into something else then what the playerbase expect and learned to apprecialte from the game, like they did with the introduction of Age of Shadows, then it will start loosing it's subscribers.
Trammel made some leave felucca but many new one's arrived after they left.
I played UO from beta time and felucca was just fine with a hi population (even after trammel) until Age of Shadows were introduced february 2003. OSI powerscrolls made more players leave felucca then trammel did.
i may sound like a noob but after looking at that chart: wth is dofus? And wow, i thought lotro was better off...
I think DF's pattern will be similar to that of EvE's if its launch is a failure. All sandbox mmo's tend to get better over time. If its a success, it will follow EvE's trend but have a higher start of like 100-200k subs.
The OP is well written and thoughtful. I don't agree fully with the points but at least some have been areas I have thought about. The insight into UO was useful too. Thanks !
1. Firstly, exploits will be in any game. The time taken to patch and recognising the problem by the developers is key. I agree that in DF this needs to be fast. The developers best be ready for post release and the first year.
3 & 4 are more worrying. The idea of ganking outside the main starting area or even inside is not going to go well. I do not mind non concentual PVP but it is useful to be able to gauge level of risk and rewards. I particulary like EVE online with its low and high sec contrasts for this. I hope that DF offers places which can be considered lower risk when it comes to PvP like backwater low sec system which I often salvage / rat in and occasionally have a 'nice encouter' with a PvP person/pirate.
If the consquences of the system designed to deal with 'ganking' is flawed or failed then DF will suffer. Gankers will get annoyed the system is being changed and 'carebear' types will not appreciate constant gankage with no consquences. We've all been in games which have had large changes after release.
I don't know exactly how the old UO system worked other than to say if it is applied in DF then it needs to work in a 21st century post WoW kiddie exploit immature grief o rama environment. Probably more so than UO days. No pressure on the devs then !
5. Hopefully in an MMO designed for PvP in mind the class balance will be well thought out. Also the PvE aspects should be similar to PvP (mechanism if not intelligence wise). I think games that started as PvE and moved into the PvP area after release are worse for this. City of Heroes springs to mind. Though maybe I am being harsh ? Any COH PvP'ers care to comment ?
My main concern with the above points is the level of large scale testing before release which is needed to fine tune such gameplay mechanisms. I don't see this happening right now. The scope of DF is so large yet the potential for above problems are enormous. Testing the technical apsects of the game might be easier than working on gameplay mechanics in a PvP FFA fantasy world environment.
Oh and if anyone thinks I am carebear from the above post it has to be said I am looking forwards to PvP aspects in more MMO. What I dont want is some ez mode, thoughtless World of Warcraft style conflict. Which is gank.. gank.. gank using the same tactics over and over. I need dynamism in my game whether its PvE or PVP !
The OP is well written and thoughtful. I don't agree fully with the points but at least some have been areas I have thought about. The insight into UO was useful too. Thanks ! 1. Firstly, exploits will be in any game. The time taken to patch and recognising the problem by the developers is key. I agree that in DF this needs to be fast. The developers best be ready for post release and the first year. 3 & 4 are more worrying. The idea of ganking outside the main starting area or even inside is not going to go well. I do not mind non concentual PVP but it is useful to be able to gauge level of risk and rewards. I particulary like EVE online with its low and high sec contrasts for this. I hope that DF offers places which can be considered lower risk when it comes to PvP like backwater low sec system which I often salvage / rat in and occasionally have a 'nice encouter' with a PvP person/pirate. from the outset, the devs stated "there will be no zones," you just have to be wary of "pirates" and fight back if need be. Remember this game world is gigantic and going on a popular route alone is a risk v reward thing (where the risk vastly outweighs the reward). Also, there is an alignment system to stop rampant pks on your own race and encourages you to pk the enemy. However there will still be people that pk their own race, and there will be a group of people that FIGHT the pks, so it will be interesting. Also, once again, you can fight back when someone attempts to pk you, and when in doubt, travel in a group. If the consquences of the system designed to deal with 'ganking' is flawed or failed then DF will suffer. Gankers will get annoyed the system is being changed and 'carebear' types will not appreciate constant gankage with no consquences. We've all been in games which have had large changes after release. I don't know exactly how the old UO system worked other than to say if it is applied in DF then it needs to work in a 21st century post WoW kiddie exploit immature grief o rama environment. Probably more so than UO days. No pressure on the devs then ! 5. Hopefully in an MMO designed for PvP in mind the class balance will be well thought out. Also the PvE aspects should be similar to PvP (mechanism if not intelligence wise). I think games that started as PvE and moved into the PvP area after release are worse for this. City of Heroes springs to mind. Though maybe I am being harsh ? Any COH PvP'ers care to comment ?
My main concern with the above points is the level of large scale testing before release which is needed to fine tune such gameplay mechanisms. I don't see this happening right now. The scope of DF is so large yet the potential for above problems are enormous. Testing the technical apsects of the game might be easier than working on gameplay mechanics in a PvP FFA fantasy world environment.
Oh and if anyone thinks I am carebear from the above post it has to be said I am looking forwards to PvP aspects in more MMO. What I dont want is some ez mode, thoughtless World of Warcraft style conflict. Which is gank.. gank.. gank using the same tactics over and over. I need dynamism in my game whether its PvE or PVP !
from the outset, the devs stated "there will be no zones," you just have to be wary of "pirates" and fight back if need be. Remember this game world is gigantic and going on a popular route alone is a risk v reward thing (where the risk vastly outweighs the reward). Also, there is an alignment system to stop rampant pks on your own race and encourages you to pk the enemy. However there will still be people that pk their own race, and there will be a group of people that FIGHT the pks, so it will be interesting. Also, once again, you can fight back when someone attempts to pk you, and when in doubt, travel in a group.
Yeah sorry I implied DF had safer zones by gameplay design. Bad comparison. Though your right I think a large gameworld will be key. They have to deliver this. The PK system does sound similar to Eve security staus with pirates and anti-pirates both having low security ratings as they both take hits.
I wonder though...
In Eve there is the whole map statistics which allows you to route plan and avoid busy / system with high kills. I wonder what kind of mechanisms will be in place to assess routes and places to go ? Not like we can have a big computer showing you all the recent activity like in Eve. Also the routes which the Developers make in this game are also going to be key.
I say this because half of the fun in Eve is assessing situations and risk when route and acitvity planning. This is why DF is so interesting at the moment.
Originally posted by Clixgamer Think about what you are saying here. Say for instance you finally looted this uber epic xtra rare sword off a Boss that you have been trying to get for over a week. Now comes the gankin scenarios as you are traveling home with your new found treasure: WoW: You get killed and get sent back to a graveyard. You res with loot intact, hey he actually did me a favor. UO: You get killed. You roam around as a ghost looking for a roaming healer. Once you find one the killer then proceeds to continue to kill you again with the uber epic super rare sword that you spent all that time trying to obtain. Yes essentially time is what you are losing, but one I am willing to live with and continue playing, the other I am not.
i made an account because you make me so mad.
you miss the whole reason to play UO or a game like it. the interactions are what define these types of games, not the loot. there is a reason that up untill AOS, uo had no super uber weapons. it wasnt about items! if you thought it was boy were you mistaken! i could kill someone with an axe off an orc and 20 bandages. no matter how much good shit you had, if you couldnt control your character as good as me, i would be prying those items off your corpse.
why would you grind for anything??! what a pathetic waste of time that would be! you're grinding for an imaginary digital item.. hell you dont own it! it does you no real good. the only reason to play a game like this is for entertainment. what value does that stupid fucking sword hold? nothing.
in uo if you had vanq stuff, and you used it, you did marginally better than someone with gm items. it was no major tip of the scales. if you think it was, christ you never fought me.
whats the point of hording items or getting uber shit, if it barely makes your character bettter than mine? thats the point of UO and hopefully DF. having items helps, but its no game breaker. you also missed that in DF mosnters drop tons of equiptment.. a fully equipt gobo drops everything when he dies. its reasonable to think you could bank many many sets of weaps and armor.. so why bitch about losing one?
I just dont understand what kind of entertainment you can get from killing some stupid npc for some dumb sword. what does that do for you? to grind your ass off for a digital nothing? the only real fun in a game like this is the interaction. good or bad. you missed it entirely while you were looking in the mirror: at your stupid uber armor and your dumb fucking sword.
The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel. Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system.
Can you back up that claim? How about linking to your so-called "fact"?
I have followed UO's history intensely, and there were fact of the opposite - that UO was doing VERY well. Only the devs said that it was losing customers, and frankly, what devs don't lie to justify alienating a huge part of their player base? Smed dejavu.
The only thing that happened to UO was EQ. The devs wanted UO to compete against EQ, they were not happy with their own increase in customers, because it wasn't as fast as EQ's. So they altered the game to become more EQ, selling out one of UO's biggest strengths - freedom. And UO has been declining ever since.
The UO vs. EQ situation reminds me alot about the SWG vs. WoW one, where SWG devs changed their game to compete directly against WoW.
UO's history just isn't as well known.
If I'm wrong, I expect you to back up your claims.
A community that has no justice system is doomed to die out. People need a method to separate themselves from those that would do them harm. Darkfalls solution is to banish players from certain areas on the penalty of death but because death is relatively meaningless in these games (immediate resurrection) the offenders can constantly reoffend minutes after they are supposedly punished. The system will be out of balance and because of this the honest folk (the real community) will be driven away. Too many parasites feeding from a host will kill the host but the same will also occur when one parasite's hunger is insatiable.
A community that has no method or reason for players to put their trust in each other is doomed to die out. Due to the fact that there is no proper justice system or any valid way for a player to determine if a person is upstanding or not then trust will always be an issue in these types of games. You can't build friendships or partnerships or communities on mistrust. New players who have no real life friends in the game will be turned away before they have a reason to play (friends) because they will most likely be cheated, killed, and robbed by 15 strangers before they meet a worthy player.
Stolen goods and loss recovery is another issue that these types of games ignore. When property is taken from a player it needs to be returned to that player or the player will feel cheated. You don't want a player to feel cheated in a game when they are paying 15 dollars a month because they will probably feel cheated in real life too.
A lack of community is what kill these games and the nature of these games doesn't inspire community habits. A game like this needs player professions that make other players content - Darkfall does this but it may not be enough.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
you can look at mmochart.org or whatever that site is. Note that I said that it started increasing when trammel was 'announced'. Subscription were dropping, and then turned around about 6 months before the actual release of trammel.
That is such a load of bullshit. If you checked out MMOGChart yourself, you will see that not ONCE prior to Trammel did UO see a decline. NOT ONCE!
I can't believe you refer to a source, that DISPROVES your claim. What is your real motivation?
A few enhancements of the MMOGCharts I made once upon a time:
Please point me to the spot where UO had a decline prior to Trammel (UO:R). It doesn't exist. On the other hand, once Trammel released, the increase was broken off, almost to a stagnation, from an increase rate, that matched EQ. This was caused by all the old players leaving.
UO topped off forever subscription-wise some 6 months after Trammel, and THEN began the decline.
Comments
Yes thats a nice long detailed description of how open PvP did not work in Ultima Online......yeah that game thats 10 years old. Just because that old game used FFA PvP doesnt mean it will be anything like Darkfall. They are totally different games so stop being so predictable and comparing the two of them purely because you dont have any other examples to compare it with. You could just as easily use EVE as an example of how PvP can work in a game. Yes congratulations some games in tbe past have failed and some have succeeded. So whats your point? UO didnt do it well so it will be the same for any other FFA PvP game? Use your brain.
You said "There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset."
Well its a good thing that Darkfall is using Darkfalls ruleset then isnt it which has absolutely NOTHING to do with Ultima Online as thats a totally different game with a totally different ruleset........oh yeah and its 10 years old as well lol.
Trammel was a kneejerk reaction because they got scared people would leave the game for EQ. Also the official forums started getting hammered by the "carebear" crowd who wanted the game changed for them. Out of fear of subscription loss they panicked and doubled the playing world 100%. When people started playing and realized people were to spread out the opposite of what they tried to prevent happened. People left and sub #s never really went back up to the way they were before or right after Trammel.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Yes thats a nice long detailed description of how open PvP did not work in Ultima Online......yeah that game thats 10 years old. Just because that old game used FFA PvP doesnt mean it will be anything like Darkfall. They are totally different games so stop being so predictable and comparing the two of them purely because you dont have any other examples to compare it with. You could just as easily use EVE as an example of how PvP can work in a game. Yes congratulations some games in tbe past have failed and some have succeeded. So whats your point? UO didnt do it well so it will be the same for any other FFA PvP game? Use your brain.
You said "There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset."
Well its a good thing that Darkfall is using Darkfalls ruleset then isnt it which has absolutely NOTHING to do with Ultima Online as thats a totally different game with a totally different ruleset........oh yeah and its 10 years old as well lol.
There are so many problems with the points the op makes I'm not going to try to correct him, and yeah WoW didn't fail because Asheron's Call 2 failed, did it?
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
But you are losing something, your time. This is exactly the same thing that you lose in a ffa full loot game.
Think about what you are saying here. Say for instance you finally looted this uber epic xtra rare sword off a Boss that you have been trying to get for over a week. Now comes the gankin scenarios as you are traveling home with your new found treasure:
WoW: You get killed and get sent back to a graveyard. You res with loot intact, hey he actually did me a favor.
UO: You get killed. You roam around as a ghost looking for a roaming healer. Once you find one the killer then proceeds to continue to kill you again with the uber epic super rare sword that you spent all that time trying to obtain.
Yes essentially time is what you are losing, but one I am willing to live with and continue playing, the other I am not.
But you are losing something, your time. This is exactly the same thing that you lose in a ffa full loot game.
Same as in L2. You didn't usually lose any gear (sometimes you did though) but you lost experience. The experience hit you took grew exponentially as your level got higher. Getting killed at level 60+ could be a loss of a few days to a week's worth of grinding. A very high penalty indeed in time lost.
Bren
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Youre right. UO was pretty much forced kicking and screaming to add trammel. It was dying, even with no other competitors.
Only problem with that scenario, clix, is that, I believe it's been said, just about every item in DF will be craftable. I highly doubt there is going to be some Awesome Uber Deathsword that you might have to farm an instance for weeks to drop. The way I read it is that DF will not be a gear based game.. There might be some pretty nice weapon loot drops, but from what the devs have been saying, it's probably not going to be incredibly better then a crafted sword. I think they're trying to make a pvp game where he who has the better skill(s)/reflexes/strategy will be the victor, not the one who spends the most time gearing up their character.
That is a great idea, and I am hoping that DarkFall will be successfull. We don't need another WoW clone, but we also don't need another UO gankfest.
I respect and appreciate the thoughtful post by the OP. He uses logic and empirical data as best he can. I have to say, however, that I disagree with him on multiple points.
1. Exploits. Yes, there will be some for sure. That's the nature of every PvP MMO. It simply becomes part of the game and has never killed any MMO that I know of. Simply adapt, and use the exploit if the Devs will not fix it. Or, don't play PvP MMOs. That's not being harsh, it's the truth. Darkfall is really for an older, more mentally hardened playerbase, your 12 year old WoW addict probably will get frusterated with the game. That will not kill darkfall.
2. Lag/Crashes. No different from any harcore online game. This has full loot, sure. Loot is not that big a deal in this game, and quite simply, shit happens. Part of a hardcore environment is that real life happens sometimes. The playerbase being marketed to is an older, tougher crowd that can pick themselves up from the occasional "shit happens" and drive on. Furthermore, with FiOS growing rapidly, and cable internet speeding up to compete, this has been and will continue to be a decreasingly important factor. Back in the time of UO and AC/DT and full loot MUDs, people were on horrendous 56k modems, having their sister/brother/mother/father pick up the phone and disconnect them almost daily. Yet those games thrived.
3. Griefing noobs. There are no levels in this game, you cannot see someone's skill. Some people will hang out in noob areas waiting for rPKs to come so they can kill them and take their good shit. Anti's will protect noobs, rPKs will kill them. That's part of what makes the game what it is. If this is a downside, then this game isn't for you. People will recruit in these noob areas, offer protection, help, etc., in return for their allegiance. That's how it worked in AC/DT and I have no doubt this will be similar.
4. Coming late. Again, no levels in this game, it is skill based. Ever played an FPS with "money" like Wolfteam 2? Sure, the veterans have tricked out rifles, but I can still hand them their asses with a standard M4 because I'm simply a better gamer. Clearly in Darkfall the advantage will be much greater, but the same principle applies. An established playerbase would actually make playing far more interesting IMO, and streamline quite a few things for a new player. You would quickly learn what builds you liked, what character types you admired, where the good hunting spots were, what clan to aspire to join, how crafting works, etc. But, if you can't hack it playing catch up, then this game isn't for you.
5. Class balance. There are no classes. No reason to belabor this point, your statement simply doesn't apply to Darkfall. No classes, nothing to balance. Players will have skill decay and obtaining new skillsets is as simple as using the skill you like. No reason to cry over something when you can just as easily adapt. That will be the mentality of the older generation of gamers who will comprise much of the playerbase of Darkfall. If you can't adapt, then Darkfall isn't for you (sorry I know I'm sounding like a broken record on that, but it's true).
6. Friends. I assume your fear is being ganked? That's the whole point of the game, fear being ganked, and do some ganking. Grief and be griefed. Loot and be looted. That's where the adrenaline rush occurs, when you are 5v1 against another party and are holding your ground. Ever played an immersive melee FPS with friendly fire? Partying up to gank can be very detrimental, you have to avoid hitting one another, but your enemy has free reign to flail away knowing every blow is a good one. Play some Jedi Academy with some friends, on Team Free For All, and turn friendly fire on, and see just how careful you have to be to avoid killing your allies. Perhaps then you will understand. But again, if fighting the odds, and taking on gank parties, and risking your neck a little by going it alone in the woods is too scary for you, then this is not the game for you.
In some ways you have attacked the core of what Darkfall is, what makes those of us who are enthused want to play it. Most of your points are the essence of a PvP MMORPG. If you consider those good reasons not to play Darkfall, then it isn't your game. There are a lot of people, myself included, who consider some of those points to be exactly why we have played similar games in the past. You don't get adrenaline without risk, and you don't get risk by making sure every player has a safety net to fall back on at all times. Darkfall is not really intended for younger users who are unwilling to solve their own problems, or who cannot cope with griefing and loss. It is built for the old PvP MUDers, the UOers, the Darktiders, and it is indeed being built by them. Four of the five head devs played Darktide, and I believe the same number played UO as well. If you want to play Soccer, don't get on a field full of Rugby players, go to the soccer field. Darkfall may not be for you.
Erm, how can you even claim this?
http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html
We don`t really know what would happen if they didn`t made Trammel. What we do know is that UO died when they took away full-loot.
And don`t come with that subscription thing. Back in the old days most didn`t even have the 56k internet. I had to play UO from an internetcafe at the cost of 4 $ an hour (and I played alot). And now I hear people complain about 15$ a month. I got my isdn in 1999, and I had to pay 1 $ an hour for a 56k line out, the telephone was on the other line. My phonebill was 300$, the same amount my girlfriend had. Now even my sisters mountain cabin have ADLS, so you can`t compare numbers 10 years ago.
And why do you anti-Darkfallers care anyway? You have WOW, the best PVE mmo in this decade.
In a game where your hands are not tied and not forced to run on an exercise wheel ...
http://www.fotosearch.com/bigcomp.asp?path=BDX/BDX108/bxp26158.jpg
you will be free to have fun or grief. It's very easy to let your imagination run wild and concoct numerous scenarios where players will be griefed. To some degree this will happen but to depict a game solely on this aspect is severly lopsided. Similarly, you can argue that one shouldn't go outside IRL because you might get ganked.
One must also consider the potential new experiences and fun that you can gain.
Well I get what OP is saying, but this is a problem with ANY mmorpg. At least in the brutality of DF's case, instead of being considered an exploit, it will be considered a fair yet boo hooo too bad for you unfair, "game mechanic". As such the possibility of actual real gameplay changing exploids, I can see the devs being VERY hard pressed to get rid of those because they do know how important good gameplay is especially with this realtime FPS/overshoulder style combat.
If there are in fact any big exploits in DF's release, the game should be "large and open ended enough" That players will learn to avoid them quite easily. Seeing how DFs selling point will mostly be its features and mechanics, they would be retarded not to concentrate on making it as un-exploitable as possible. Though I believe no game is 110% free of this problem especially from launch, but who knows only time will tell for sure.
I do agree with alot of what you said.... but most of your points is why I LIKED it. IT was a hard game.. it was a challenge. You had to be smart and on your toes. People left it because people like ezmode..... not me.
Yes ive been chased back to brit yelling GUARDS plenty of times. But I stayed on my toes and handled my business and before long I was sending many murderers to thier doom and collecting bounties. UO is a cold dark place and thats what I liked. The games nowadays are set up to preotect you and it's not just my cup of tea... I play any game on the hardest mode available...
I disagree somewhat with this last part (and the "its not for you" stuff, but agree with the entire post in general). You don't go to a pve game and say "this game will fail because you are forced to pve," the op took what DF fans wanted in a game, what we are looking for, and made them into negatives.
I disagree with the above b/c this game is more casual friendly than WoW (not as NOOB friendly though, there's a difference, n00bs will feel more lost here than in woW, but some n00bs, the ones who have brains, will feel immersed b/c there's literally a world of experience ahead of them that they can't comprehend yet). Its casual friendly b/c n00bs have the ability to kill vets. Casual players won't have to play every day to be good at combat. If the casual player has twitch skills, it can help compensate for his not so amazing equipment. In WoW the battle b/w a casual and hardcore in pvp is over before it even begins.
Who will and who won't play this game is not "casual vs hardcore", there are things that appeal to both types of players in this game. The thing that divides people on liking this game is the type of personality that person has. This game IS NOT friendly to people who can't handle risk, and people who like to solo in mmos. Notice I didn't mention pve'ers there, this game, if successful, will have one the best pve systems to date its just that the people who primarily pve only have be able to handle risk and adjust accordingly (don't go to heavy pk areas, travel in groups etc.).
The game is also not friendly to soloers, you have the freedom to solo, sure, but this isn't WoW, a single-player online game, this is an mmo and your game life will be tougher and more dangerous soloing than grouping. Its another risk v reward thing, the rewards of soling is that, um i dunno i don't like soloing but a lot of people do so there must be some rewards in it, but the risks are that you will be an easier target to kill (but soloing is definately possible, you will have to be sneaky though and utilize the large gameworld to avoid people, kindof like if you were flagged for pk).
The types of people this game DOES appeal to are: people who like sandbox mmo's, pvp'ers, pkers, griefers, anti-griefers, crafters, pve'ers, explorers (one of the biggest and most complex game worlds is Agon), online socializers (politics will be important), and, if the game is what it says it is, the elusive fps'ers and rts'ers (who normally don't play mmo's). Assuming, of course, all of these people can handle risk.
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
Trammel didnt kill UO at all. Its a myth.
What killed UO was Age of Shadows with it's insurances, retarded templates and uberweapons. This can easily be read out from the MMOGCHART subs numbers. Age of Shadows made UO a totally different game then the one the old school players were used too. Trammel were nothing compared to Age of Shadows when it comes to loosing subs.
www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html
When trammel were introduced mars 2000 the numbers went up. You also have to remember that EQ, AC and DAoC took subs from UO after the introduction of trammel.
When Age of Shadows were introduced february 2003 (a carebear patch) the numbers skydived.
If you rearrange a sandbox like UO or Darkfall into something else then what the playerbase expect and learned to apprecialte from the game, like they did with the introduction of Age of Shadows, then it will start loosing it's subscribers. The core of the game has been abandoned.
Trammel made some leave felucca but many new one's arrived after they left.
I played UO from beta time and felucca was just fine with a hi population (even after trammel) until Age of Shadows were introduced february 2003. OSI powerscrolls made more players leave felucca then trammel did.
well i remember mmorpgchart.com had a chart that showed uo gained popultion after trammel.uo pre trammel greatest issue was it had very limited noob safety net so players got pked continously before they culd grow and eq was new and the new kid on the block.
so what someone said is true trammel killing uo is nothing more then a myth .just a few pkers who spam forums a lot gave people that impression.
some argue trammel killed the game but it saved it.there was always an optional world for ppl to pk but no one went to fellucia.its what happened post trammel that ruined uo
Trammel didnt kill UO at all. Its a myth.
What killed UO was Age of Shadows with it's insurances and uberweapons. This can easily be read out from the MMOGCHART subs numbers.
www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html
When trammel were introduced mars 2000 the numbers went up. You also have to remember that EQ, AC and DAoC took subs from UO after the introduction of trammel.
When Age of Shadows were introduced february 2003 (a carebear patch) the numbers skydived.
If you rearrange a sandbox like UO or Darkfall into something else then what the playerbase expect and learned to apprecialte from the game, like they did with the introduction of Age of Shadows, then it will start loosing it's subscribers.
Trammel made some leave felucca but many new one's arrived after they left.
I played UO from beta time and felucca was just fine with a hi population (even after trammel) until Age of Shadows were introduced february 2003. OSI powerscrolls made more players leave felucca then trammel did.
i may sound like a noob but after looking at that chart: wth is dofus? And wow, i thought lotro was better off...
I think DF's pattern will be similar to that of EvE's if its launch is a failure. All sandbox mmo's tend to get better over time. If its a success, it will follow EvE's trend but have a higher start of like 100-200k subs.
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
The OP is well written and thoughtful. I don't agree fully with the points but at least some have been areas I have thought about. The insight into UO was useful too. Thanks !
1. Firstly, exploits will be in any game. The time taken to patch and recognising the problem by the developers is key. I agree that in DF this needs to be fast. The developers best be ready for post release and the first year.
3 & 4 are more worrying. The idea of ganking outside the main starting area or even inside is not going to go well. I do not mind non concentual PVP but it is useful to be able to gauge level of risk and rewards. I particulary like EVE online with its low and high sec contrasts for this. I hope that DF offers places which can be considered lower risk when it comes to PvP like backwater low sec system which I often salvage / rat in and occasionally have a 'nice encouter' with a PvP person/pirate.
If the consquences of the system designed to deal with 'ganking' is flawed or failed then DF will suffer. Gankers will get annoyed the system is being changed and 'carebear' types will not appreciate constant gankage with no consquences. We've all been in games which have had large changes after release.
I don't know exactly how the old UO system worked other than to say if it is applied in DF then it needs to work in a 21st century post WoW kiddie exploit immature grief o rama environment. Probably more so than UO days. No pressure on the devs then !
5. Hopefully in an MMO designed for PvP in mind the class balance will be well thought out. Also the PvE aspects should be similar to PvP (mechanism if not intelligence wise). I think games that started as PvE and moved into the PvP area after release are worse for this. City of Heroes springs to mind. Though maybe I am being harsh ? Any COH PvP'ers care to comment ?
My main concern with the above points is the level of large scale testing before release which is needed to fine tune such gameplay mechanisms. I don't see this happening right now. The scope of DF is so large yet the potential for above problems are enormous. Testing the technical apsects of the game might be easier than working on gameplay mechanics in a PvP FFA fantasy world environment.
Oh and if anyone thinks I am carebear from the above post it has to be said I am looking forwards to PvP aspects in more MMO. What I dont want is some ez mode, thoughtless World of Warcraft style conflict. Which is gank.. gank.. gank using the same tactics over and over. I need dynamism in my game whether its PvE or PVP !
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
Yeah sorry I implied DF had safer zones by gameplay design. Bad comparison. Though your right I think a large gameworld will be key. They have to deliver this. The PK system does sound similar to Eve security staus with pirates and anti-pirates both having low security ratings as they both take hits.
I wonder though...
In Eve there is the whole map statistics which allows you to route plan and avoid busy / system with high kills. I wonder what kind of mechanisms will be in place to assess routes and places to go ? Not like we can have a big computer showing you all the recent activity like in Eve. Also the routes which the Developers make in this game are also going to be key.
I say this because half of the fun in Eve is assessing situations and risk when route and acitvity planning. This is why DF is so interesting at the moment.
i made an account because you make me so mad.
you miss the whole reason to play UO or a game like it. the interactions are what define these types of games, not the loot. there is a reason that up untill AOS, uo had no super uber weapons. it wasnt about items! if you thought it was boy were you mistaken! i could kill someone with an axe off an orc and 20 bandages. no matter how much good shit you had, if you couldnt control your character as good as me, i would be prying those items off your corpse.
why would you grind for anything??! what a pathetic waste of time that would be! you're grinding for an imaginary digital item.. hell you dont own it! it does you no real good. the only reason to play a game like this is for entertainment. what value does that stupid fucking sword hold? nothing.
in uo if you had vanq stuff, and you used it, you did marginally better than someone with gm items. it was no major tip of the scales. if you think it was, christ you never fought me.
whats the point of hording items or getting uber shit, if it barely makes your character bettter than mine? thats the point of UO and hopefully DF. having items helps, but its no game breaker. you also missed that in DF mosnters drop tons of equiptment.. a fully equipt gobo drops everything when he dies. its reasonable to think you could bank many many sets of weaps and armor.. so why bitch about losing one?
I just dont understand what kind of entertainment you can get from killing some stupid npc for some dumb sword. what does that do for you? to grind your ass off for a digital nothing? the only real fun in a game like this is the interaction. good or bad. you missed it entirely while you were looking in the mirror: at your stupid uber armor and your dumb fucking sword.
i make em go "ooOOOooooo"
Can you back up that claim? How about linking to your so-called "fact"?
I have followed UO's history intensely, and there were fact of the opposite - that UO was doing VERY well. Only the devs said that it was losing customers, and frankly, what devs don't lie to justify alienating a huge part of their player base? Smed dejavu.
The only thing that happened to UO was EQ. The devs wanted UO to compete against EQ, they were not happy with their own increase in customers, because it wasn't as fast as EQ's. So they altered the game to become more EQ, selling out one of UO's biggest strengths - freedom. And UO has been declining ever since.
The UO vs. EQ situation reminds me alot about the SWG vs. WoW one, where SWG devs changed their game to compete directly against WoW.
UO's history just isn't as well known.
If I'm wrong, I expect you to back up your claims.
A community that has no justice system is doomed to die out. People need a method to separate themselves from those that would do them harm. Darkfalls solution is to banish players from certain areas on the penalty of death but because death is relatively meaningless in these games (immediate resurrection) the offenders can constantly reoffend minutes after they are supposedly punished. The system will be out of balance and because of this the honest folk (the real community) will be driven away. Too many parasites feeding from a host will kill the host but the same will also occur when one parasite's hunger is insatiable.
A community that has no method or reason for players to put their trust in each other is doomed to die out. Due to the fact that there is no proper justice system or any valid way for a player to determine if a person is upstanding or not then trust will always be an issue in these types of games. You can't build friendships or partnerships or communities on mistrust. New players who have no real life friends in the game will be turned away before they have a reason to play (friends) because they will most likely be cheated, killed, and robbed by 15 strangers before they meet a worthy player.
Stolen goods and loss recovery is another issue that these types of games ignore. When property is taken from a player it needs to be returned to that player or the player will feel cheated. You don't want a player to feel cheated in a game when they are paying 15 dollars a month because they will probably feel cheated in real life too.
A lack of community is what kill these games and the nature of these games doesn't inspire community habits. A game like this needs player professions that make other players content - Darkfall does this but it may not be enough.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
That is such a load of bullshit. If you checked out MMOGChart yourself, you will see that not ONCE prior to Trammel did UO see a decline. NOT ONCE!
I can't believe you refer to a source, that DISPROVES your claim. What is your real motivation?
A few enhancements of the MMOGCharts I made once upon a time:
www.mercenaries.ws/Subscriptions-mod.gif
www.mercenaries.ws/Subscriptions-mod2.gif
Please point me to the spot where UO had a decline prior to Trammel (UO:R). It doesn't exist. On the other hand, once Trammel released, the increase was broken off, almost to a stagnation, from an increase rate, that matched EQ. This was caused by all the old players leaving.
UO topped off forever subscription-wise some 6 months after Trammel, and THEN began the decline.