Originally posted by metalhead980 It took me less then two minutes to get back to my body with no durability hit. I didnt need to buy new gear, I have virtually no downtime. I was like "Ok, so when you kill me I lose nothing? LOL!"
But you are losing something, your time. This is exactly the same thing that you lose in a ffa full loot game.
Think about what you are saying here. Say for instance you finally looted this uber epic xtra rare sword off a Boss that you have been trying to get for over a week. Now comes the gankin scenarios as you are traveling home with your new found treasure:
WoW: You get killed and get sent back to a graveyard. You res with loot intact, hey he actually did me a favor.
UO: You get killed. You roam around as a ghost looking for a roaming healer. Once you find one the killer then proceeds to continue to kill you again with the uber epic super rare sword that you spent all that time trying to obtain.
Yes essentially time is what you are losing, but one I am willing to live with and continue playing, the other I am not.
Think about what you are saying here. Say for instance you knew what you were talking about or even played Ultima Online. You would know that items like that didn't come out until after Trammel (MUCH later) and anything that was considered the best possible was not what made the difference between a successful PK or anti-PK.
Pretty much all you need is common sense in a game where you have the possibility of dying and losing something.
I joined Ultima Online shortly after T2A was implemented and the only reasons I was ganked was because I was 12 years old and was trying to mine and nothing else. Once I used this thing called a brain that you're supposed to be born with you realize that there are some precautionary measures that you must take. I later started mining in low to non existant traffic areas as well as on a boat that I had saved up to purchase. From there I would make sure I knew my escape route from any dungeons I was in on my melee or mage at all times.
All it took was less than 15 seconds and a little bit of attention and I rarely had to worry about dying to someone unless I was jumped while I had old school dragons on me. Chances of that happening though? Very low because I paid attention. Oh, I guess you also have to be good at the game too, but even if you weren't, you could Kal Ort Por (Recall) out very quickly.
We need to get a wambulance in here I think. You idiots need to learn the description of what a nocebo is. You're all planting a seed of doom before you even get to play the game and I'm laughing the entire time.
Originally posted by metalhead980 It took me less then two minutes to get back to my body with no durability hit. I didnt need to buy new gear, I have virtually no downtime. I was like "Ok, so when you kill me I lose nothing? LOL!"
But you are losing something, your time. This is exactly the same thing that you lose in a ffa full loot game.
Think about what you are saying here. Say for instance you finally looted this uber epic xtra rare sword off a Boss that you have been trying to get for over a week. Now comes the gankin scenarios as you are traveling home with your new found treasure:
WoW: You get killed and get sent back to a graveyard. You res with loot intact, hey he actually did me a favor.
UO: You get killed. You roam around as a ghost looking for a roaming healer. Once you find one the killer then proceeds to continue to kill you again with the uber epic super rare sword that you spent all that time trying to obtain.
Yes essentially time is what you are losing, but one I am willing to live with and continue playing, the other I am not.
Think about what you are saying here. Say for instance you knew what you were talking about or even played Ultima Online. You would know that items like that didn't come out until after Trammel (MUCH later) and anything that was considered the best possible was not what made the difference between a successful PK or anti-PK.
Pretty much all you need is common sense in a game where you have the possibility of dying and losing something.
I joined Ultima Online shortly after T2A was implemented and the only reasons I was ganked was because I was 12 years old and was trying to mine and nothing else. Once I used this thing called a brain that you're supposed to be born with you realize that there are some precautionary measures that you must take. I later started mining in low to non existant traffic areas as well as on a boat that I had saved up to purchase. From there I would make sure I knew my escape route from any dungeons I was in on my melee or mage at all times.
All it took was less than 15 seconds and a little bit of attention and I rarely had to worry about dying to someone unless I was jumped while I had old school dragons on me. Chances of that happening though? Very low because I paid attention. Oh, I guess you also have to be good at the game too, but even if you weren't, you could Kal Ort Por (Recall) out very quickly.
We need to get a wambulance in here I think. You idiots need to learn the description of what a nocebo is. You're all planting a seed of doom before you even get to play the game and I'm laughing the entire time.
Wow! Who tinkled in your Cheerios?
Look, I am not trying to establish who it the better gamer, I am trying to state my preference on gaming. I will be the first to tell you that I am not the best at video games. It's not that I just suck, it is just that I don't really have that much time to put into the game with a wife, kids, work, dog, cats, and college to deal with on a daily basis.
I know I have to take precautions. I didn't play UO for 2 years straight for nothing. I just don't really have the patience for it anymore. I also WANT Darkfall to succeed, because in theory it sounds like the perfect mmorpg. And I am not trying to shoot it down. But anytime you throw in the human factor, unexpected things happen. I am sure Lord British was totally shocked when he was killed by a player while giving a speech during Beta.
So lets just sit back and relax. Squeeze our stress toys, and see that I told you...um oh I mean see what a great game Darkfall will become.
2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above. If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad. 3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town. It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill. Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out. In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town. Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing. Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town. This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel. Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason. The same thing will happen in Darkfall. Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 4. Don't come late to the party - This kind of goes with #3. But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress. The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them. This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early. I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch. But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did. New players won't renew 5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do. Class balance in PvP is almost impossible. How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time. In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class. 6. Bring your friends - full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands. This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on? And again, what about new players? UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF. 1. New players won't last the first month
2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly. 'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic. Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.
3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played. UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm.
4. Gear grinding - You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear. There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset. If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game
You are quite catastrophologist and i ll asnwer to most of the concerns you brought:
2. Every time you login to DF you are fully aware what will happen if you see your latt sucks that day and if you go out adventuring with lagg,its arisky desicion you make. In wow and all other succesfull games if your latt sucks u cant do athing also.. You cant pvp arena or bg's ,you cant raid ,you cant even do heroics dungeons or simple dungeons cause u ll probably be a weight to your mates and if u r a tank or healer u ll probably wipe them,so lagg affects all games not only DF. From what i hear they have made good job in minimizing lagg probs and if thats true thats a great plus to the game especially since combat is manual.
3.Game is skill based and not lvl based, and you ll see many higher lvl players that think they r awesome wariors gettig pawned many times by lowbies that actually are more skilled than them.and since its up to my PERSONAL skills as a player to counter enemies let em come... Besides that even in wow which is supposed to be pvp safe game there are ca,mping/griefing issues,and apart that we r talking DF is a huge world with hundernds of spots to pve with mobs,so its not easy to track down ppl to gang em.
4.My answers at 3 cover you 4.also ....
5.Class balance? quite lol my friend...since there are no classes, in fact just hundrends of skills to chhose from to define ,there are just some hundrends of thousands of class combos that your avatar will be depending which u choose. If someone is loosing mostly because of the skills he chooosed that means HE and only HE made bad calls for his avatar AND THATS THE BEST THING IN THE GAME in my opinion.Freedom in character development so everyone can be what he wants... In DF there are NOT issues like class balance... Just good and bad choises you make and that seperates good from bad players as it SHOULD be!!
6.Good question.. new lonely players what will do? hmm dont know perhaps ask any guild to join them? and in a game like DF be sure my friend all noobies /starters will be most welcome to any guild since its mostly skill based than gear grinding /famring like wow.. Since its not easy to understand how much strong is aguy ingame he can play his role im sure in guild fights even if his skills aren t raised enough since hes new player... What if he wants to play lone wolf in DF? Aventurine has clearly stated that it can be done but it has its risks... so thew player is fully aware of the dangers that lurk ahead..
as for your conclusions ?
1. New players will be addicted unless they want risk free pvp gl in wow...
2. Flavor of the month class as i explained you above doesnt exist...
3.Gear grinding not existing the way u put it.. Its very easy to ahve lots of decent sets stored in bank so whenever u need to replace lost gear u have it.
A community that has no justice system is doomed to die out. People need a method to separate themselves from those that would do them harm. Darkfalls solution is to banish players from certain areas on the penalty of death but because death is relatively meaningless in these games (immediate resurrection) the offenders can constantly reoffend minutes after they are supposedly punished. The system will be out of balance and because of this the honest folk (the real community) will be driven away. Too many parasites feeding from a host will kill the host but the same will also occur when one parasite's hunger is insatiable. A community that has no method or reason for players to put their trust in each other is doomed to die out. Due to the fact that there is no proper justice system or any valid way for a player to determine if a person is upstanding or not then trust will always be an issue in these types of games. You can't build friendships or partnerships or communities on mistrust. New players who have no real life friends in the game will be turned away before they have a reason to play (friends) because they will most likely be cheated, killed, and robbed by 15 strangers before they meet a worthy player. Stolen goods and loss recovery is another issue that these types of games ignore. When property is taken from a player it needs to be returned to that player or the player will feel cheated. You don't want a player to feel cheated in a game when they are paying 15 dollars a month because they will probably feel cheated in real life too. A lack of community is what kill these games and the nature of these games doesn't inspire community habits. A game like this needs player professions that make other players content - Darkfall does this but it may not be enough.
I also question your UO experience. Justice system? Games like Ultima Online had a magnificent justice system, it was called player justice. There is not a more beautiful thing than putting the task in the player's hands to do the right thing, and although the "social experiment" known as Ultima Online was deemed a failure, I never understood why. It failed only because the development team became scared and followed suit of it's new-age competition. I can post screenshots of literally thousands of players rallying in Lord British's castle desperately trying to talk OSI out of implementing trammel, most quit after their cries were ignored.
Lack of community? I whole-heartedly beg to differ, and it again makes me question your experiences in UO. Never in any game before or since had I ever felt such strong bonds with my fellow players or guildmates. There is no feeling like entering into a dungeon with a stranger, watching him closely at all times because you know he could backstab you when you least expect it. A murderer rolls in and begins casting spells on you, but your partner distracts him and screams to you "Get out of here!". He dies and loses all of his gear to save you, there's been nothing like the bonds that grow from these kinds of interactions in any game since.
MASSIVE communities were built in this game based on these type of formed bonds, and most of them continue in the MMO world today just because they built this strong trust from early Ultima Online. I can remember cities built by the players with no NPC laws whatsoever that were safer than the middle of West Britain bank itself. If a griefer tried anything short of tipping his hat in fear at you, these player guilds would rain hell down upon him proving the fact that there was plenty of reason to maintain and grow. The interactions on a daily basis really did create a tangible reward far greater than any end-game epic rare or new expansion could ever create.
To say the playerbase (or lack of) was the downfall of Ultima Online would not only be selling it short, but flat out wrong.
It's apparent that part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel. Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO). The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel. Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system. 1. Exploits - Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed. How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends. How fast do most games take to fix an exploit? A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it? UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'. Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed. Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit. 2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above. If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad. 3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town. It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill. Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out. In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town. Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing. Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town. This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel. Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason. The same thing will happen in Darkfall. Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 4. Don't come late to the party - This kind of goes with #3. But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress. The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them. This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early. I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch. But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did. New players won't renew 5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do. Class balance in PvP is almost impossible. How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time. In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class. 6. Bring your friends - full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands. This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on? And again, what about new players? UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF. 1. New players won't last the first month
2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly. 'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic. Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.
3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played. UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm.
4. Gear grinding - You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear. There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset. If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game
The problem I have is the portion in red..............
Within the first 6 months of release it reached 100k subs, this was in 1997. Subs continued to grow steadily up until 2000 when Trammel was introduced. With the introduction to trammel, the number of subs UO had still grew but grew at a much slower pace than it did prior to trammel. In fact it took them 3 years to hit that 250k after trammel. A tidbit of Info many like to disregard, in 1999 UO had over 200k subs lol, in 2001 they hit a peak of 240k it took 2 years to get 10k new subs after trammel was introduced. The majority of the subs were pre-trammel.
1997 - 100k subs
3 years later
1999 - 200k subs
2 years later
2001 - 240k subs
2 years later
2003 - 250k subs
And you are honestly trying to say it was bleeding subs pre-Trammel? When it only gained 40k subs 2 years later and an additional 10k subs 2 years after that?
If anything Trammel Stunted UO's growth, Im sorry thats how I feel. This is of course merely my opinion having been there since launch and staying up until 2 years ago and taking the facts that were available into consideration.
I'm going to agree with you. In addition, I'll offer a timeline for anyone out of the loop.
Pre-trammel Felucca was packed full of player housing. (people were paying triple house prices just for the plot of land without the deed) It's my belief that many people were duped into becoming "Trammies" because OSI offered double the open land for housing with their new "no-aggro" ruleset. After they officially made the move they pretty much stayed in that facet and became softened by the ruleset.
The sad irony in the end was that all of the people who were sucked over there for housing found themselves with the same exact problem. Trammel was absolutely packed (forget 3x house prices, try even higher) and Felucca was now barren and open. No one was willing to leave the newfound lifestyle for housing. The introduction of more land expansions just compounded the problem.
you can look at mmochart.org or whatever that site is. Note that I said that it started increasing when trammel was 'announced'. Subscription were dropping, and then turned around about 6 months before the actual release of trammel.
That is such a load of bullshit. If you checked out MMOGChart yourself, you will see that not ONCE prior to Trammel did UO see a decline. NOT ONCE!
I can't believe you refer to a source, that DISPROVES your claim. What is your real motivation?
A few enhancements of the MMOGCharts I made once upon a time:
Please point me to the spot where UO had a decline prior to Trammel (UO:R). It doesn't exist. On the other hand, once Trammel released, the increase was broken off, almost to a stagnation, from an increase rate, that matched EQ. This was caused by all the old players leaving.
UO topped off forever subscription-wise some 6 months after Trammel, and THEN began the decline.
But, by your logic, you can also say that people liked Trammel, becase no one left when it was released. And by that time, the market was flooded, which sort of stunted population growth.
"Luckily I know that while you make nonsnese baiting threads that get locked....threads I make get sticked by the mods on this forum...." -imbant (greatest board warrior EVER) Darkfall Countdown: http://darkfallreleasedate.com/
you can look at mmochart.org or whatever that site is. Note that I said that it started increasing when trammel was 'announced'. Subscription were dropping, and then turned around about 6 months before the actual release of trammel.
That is such a load of bullshit. If you checked out MMOGChart yourself, you will see that not ONCE prior to Trammel did UO see a decline. NOT ONCE!
I can't believe you refer to a source, that DISPROVES your claim. What is your real motivation?
A few enhancements of the MMOGCharts I made once upon a time:
Please point me to the spot where UO had a decline prior to Trammel (UO:R). It doesn't exist. On the other hand, once Trammel released, the increase was broken off, almost to a stagnation, from an increase rate, that matched EQ. This was caused by all the old players leaving.
UO topped off forever subscription-wise some 6 months after Trammel, and THEN began the decline.
But, by your logic, you can also say that people liked Trammel, becase no one left when it was released. And by that time, the market was flooded, which sort of stunted population growth.
I was one that did not leave. I didn't stay because I liked Trammel, I stayed because even with the addition of Trammel, UO was better than most of what was out there. I mean if most liked trammel, the enormous ammount of QQ posts along with hundreds of petitions signed by thousands and thousands would not have kept poping up asking for a Origins Shard. It became customary for anyone that was asking what the community wanted as an official representative would say before any asked "And don't ask for an Origins Shard, it's not going to happen." Oddly enough they still do so today XD.
I agree with the OP i wouldnt have put it better myself, im all for fierce clan wars, sieges and control over servers but like the OP I feel DF(if it comes out with all these features), will be plagued by ganking and there willl be no competition, I have seen some people including myself bring this up and most people seem to think people will band together and hunt down criminals which is pretty naive and wishfull thinking, people will ALWAYS join the stronger side, and once a group is strong enough to control everyone else the stronger will join them.
I for one would happier with a more "soft" penalty if you wanna call it, AKA L2 system, this worked pretty well the consequences were still there and they werent that soft but it didnt go into the realm of everyone mindless ganking "just because" , ganking people just because you can completely sets me off the medieval fantasy setting, it takes reasoning away from killing someone else.
A good case study is Lineage 2 Official and Private Servers, on the official servers you had powerfull alliances, sieges, people banding together to take down the powerfull, more strategic pvp, alliances gathering gear for their members which took alot of hard work. Going red(criminal) wasnt a thing you would do lightly you wouldnt go out and just kill everyone else on the road but if you see a guy from an enemy force you would surely engage him and go red if needed.
On a private server where gear is most of the time(some servers have normal rates) meaninggless and you could buy replacements if you lost any, starting zones are plagued with red people that spent a minimum time to get an edge on the newbie players and just killed everything on sight.
I think DF's pattern will be similar to that of EvE's if its launch is a failure. All sandbox mmo's tend to get better over time. If its a success, it will follow EvE's trend but have a higher start of like 100-200k subs.
EVE is the best example of a FFA PVP-oriented sandbox MMO that is still around today and has been growing steadily for the past 5 years.
that said, EVE provides a lot of protection for PVE-only players in high-sec space, and this is something that DF will not have.
i didn't play UO so i can't really relate to your experiences but it's hard to imagine any MMO in 2008 being able to survive financially without being able to attract and retain PVE-oriented players (ie 50-50 PVE/PVP, the majority) as well as pure PVPers.
Everquest released in 1999 which was the biggest contributor to UO's stunted growth because Everquest was a better game for both PVE and on the PVP servers. It didn't have much to do with PVP or the type of PVP, it had more to do with the overall quality and content.
I agree with the OP i wouldnt have put it better myself, im all for fierce clan wars, sieges and control over servers but like the OP I feel DF(if it comes out with all these features), will be plagued by ganking and there willl be no competition, I have seen some people including myself bring this up and most people seem to think people will band together and hunt down criminals which is pretty naive and wishfull thinking, people will ALWAYS join the stronger side, and once a group is strong enough to control everyone else the stronger will join them. I for one would happier with a more "soft" penalty if you wanna call it, AKA L2 system, this worked pretty well the consequences were still there and they werent that soft but it didnt go into the realm of everyone mindless ganking "just because" , ganking people just because you can completely sets me off the medieval fantasy setting, it takes reasoning away from killing someone else. A good case study is Lineage 2 Official and Private Servers, on the official servers you had powerfull alliances, sieges, people banding together to take down the powerfull, more strategic pvp, alliances gathering gear for their members which took alot of hard work. Going red(criminal) wasnt a thing you would do lightly you wouldnt go out and just kill everyone else on the road but if you see a guy from an enemy force you would surely engage him and go red if needed. On a private server where gear is most of the time(some servers have normal rates) meaninggless and you could buy replacements if you lost any, starting zones are plagued with red people that spent a minimum time to get an edge on the newbie players and just killed everything on sight.
A lot of people that you consider "Naive" think people will band together etc. because we have done so in the past. The "wishful thinking" you seem to think some have, we consider more Historical fact. An example would be when CD and FL joined as one guild and then tried to run the server, the responce was several guilds forming an alliance that actual led CD and FL to reconsider there alliance and then split up lol.
Part of the game for many is having that ultimate bad guy to rebel against and eventually destroy. This isn't something Developers have ever managed to truly program into a game. This level of immersion and fun only comes from player Ultimate Evils.
The DF systen is more of a revision of the UO system with some RvR or Faction elements thrown in. The UO system worked for the PvP crowd but was a bit harsh for some of the PvE crowd. The PvE crowd lived with it though and many even enjoyed it, the Carebears did not. The DF system will make it a bit easier on the PvE crowd, the Carebears are never happy with unconsentual PvP, and the PvP'rs will take a small hit to there FFA PvP elements but not enough to be overly upset.
you can look at mmochart.org or whatever that site is. Note that I said that it started increasing when trammel was 'announced'. Subscription were dropping, and then turned around about 6 months before the actual release of trammel.
That is such a load of bullshit. If you checked out MMOGChart yourself, you will see that not ONCE prior to Trammel did UO see a decline. NOT ONCE!
I can't believe you refer to a source, that DISPROVES your claim. What is your real motivation?
A few enhancements of the MMOGCharts I made once upon a time:
Please point me to the spot where UO had a decline prior to Trammel (UO:R). It doesn't exist. On the other hand, once Trammel released, the increase was broken off, almost to a stagnation, from an increase rate, that matched EQ. This was caused by all the old players leaving.
UO topped off forever subscription-wise some 6 months after Trammel, and THEN began the decline.
Trammel didnt destroy UO. Age of Shadow february 2003 was what ruined UO. Heck, powerscrolls implementation ruined UO alot more then trammel ever did.
After trammel implementation early 2000 the subs raised from 180K to 240K in a years time. That trammel ruined UO is something that the pre-trammel players made up. Facts of increasing subs and the no decreasing of players in felucca after trammel proves that the talk of trammel ruined UO is nothing but just that, alot of talk with no facts behind the words.
Powerscrolls made more people leave UO and felucca then the implementation of trammel ever did.
Powerscrolls were introduced to UO 23 july 2002. If you check MMOGCHART you see the dip in subs just after they implemented powerscrolls. Subs went down 15K after the powerscrolls were introduced.
Age of Shadows implemented february 2003 which was a carebear patch with uberweapons, insurances, retarded templates and a ridicolous spellsystem ruined UO.
Originally posted by Clixgamer Think about what you are saying here. Say for instance you finally looted this uber epic xtra rare sword off a Boss that you have been trying to get for over a week. Now comes the gankin scenarios as you are traveling home with your new found treasure: WoW: You get killed and get sent back to a graveyard. You res with loot intact, hey he actually did me a favor. UO: You get killed. You roam around as a ghost looking for a roaming healer. Once you find one the killer then proceeds to continue to kill you again with the uber epic super rare sword that you spent all that time trying to obtain. Yes essentially time is what you are losing, but one I am willing to live with and continue playing, the other I am not.
i made an account because you make me so mad.
you miss the whole reason to play UO or a game like it. the interactions are what define these types of games, not the loot. there is a reason that up untill AOS, uo had no super uber weapons. it wasnt about items! if you thought it was boy were you mistaken! i could kill someone with an axe off an orc and 20 bandages. no matter how much good shit you had, if you couldnt control your character as good as me, i would be prying those items off your corpse.
why would you grind for anything??! what a pathetic waste of time that would be! you're grinding for an imaginary digital item.. hell you dont own it! it does you no real good. the only reason to play a game like this is for entertainment. what value does that stupid fucking sword hold? nothing.
in uo if you had vanq stuff, and you used it, you did marginally better than someone with gm items. it was no major tip of the scales. if you think it was, christ you never fought me.
whats the point of hording items or getting uber shit, if it barely makes your character bettter than mine? thats the point of UO and hopefully DF. having items helps, but its no game breaker. you also missed that in DF mosnters drop tons of equiptment.. a fully equipt gobo drops everything when he dies. its reasonable to think you could bank many many sets of weaps and armor.. so why bitch about losing one?
I just dont understand what kind of entertainment you can get from killing some stupid npc for some dumb sword. what does that do for you? to grind your ass off for a digital nothing? the only real fun in a game like this is the interaction. good or bad. you missed it entirely while you were looking in the mirror: at your stupid uber armor and your dumb fucking sword.
Actually, I recall that what set you apart in UO was a combination of how well you knew how to use the exploits paired with how good you were at macroing skills so you could train them up fast enough to be useful.
Yay for spending 10 hours macro'ing chopping down a tree!
you can look at mmochart.org or whatever that site is. Note that I said that it started increasing when trammel was 'announced'. Subscription were dropping, and then turned around about 6 months before the actual release of trammel.
That is such a load of bullshit. If you checked out MMOGChart yourself, you will see that not ONCE prior to Trammel did UO see a decline. NOT ONCE!
I can't believe you refer to a source, that DISPROVES your claim. What is your real motivation?
A few enhancements of the MMOGCharts I made once upon a time:
Please point me to the spot where UO had a decline prior to Trammel (UO:R). It doesn't exist. On the other hand, once Trammel released, the increase was broken off, almost to a stagnation, from an increase rate, that matched EQ. This was caused by all the old players leaving.
UO topped off forever subscription-wise some 6 months after Trammel, and THEN began the decline.
Trammel didnt destroy UO. Age of Shadow february 2003 was what ruined UO. Heck, powerscrolls implementation ruined UO alot more then trammel ever did.
After trammel implementation early 2000 the subs raised from 180K to 240K in a years time. That trammel ruined UO is something that the pre-trammel players made up. Facts of increasing subs and the no decreasing of players in felucca after trammel proves that the talk of trammel ruined UO is nothing but just that, alot of talk with no facts behind the words.
Powerscrolls made more people leave UO and felucca then the implementation of trammel ever did.
Powerscrolls were introduced to UO 23 july 2002. If you check MMOGCHART you see the dip in subs just after they implemented powerscrolls. Subs went down 15K after the powerscrolls were introduced.
Age of Shadows implemented february 2003 which was a carebear patch with uberweapons, insurances, retarded templates and a ridicolous spellsystem ruined UO.
Even the Chart you link to shows a decline after Trammel was introduced. Sure it spike to about 240k in April 2001 but it dropped back down to about 200k Prior to 2003 where AoS generated another Spike that hit the 250k Mark and then did nothing but decline from there.
No Trammel may not have destroyed UO, it didn't save UO either. Even the chart you used showed that Trammel generated a Brief increase up to 240k subs for that lasted a few months that leveled off to about 220k subs which then dropped back down to around 200k subs by 2003. In 2003 it spiked to 250k with AoS which didn't last long either, From 2003 and on it was nothing but a decline.
While Trammel may not have destroyed UO , it certainly didn't do much to help it. Since Trammel there has been nothing but a decline with brief influxes that drop more than they rose.
And yes I agree with AoS being the final nail in the coffin. Dropped like a rock after that.
Did Trammel Save UO? No, It had a brief spike that dropped back down to where it was Pre-Trammel.
Did Trammel Kill UO? No, it actually just dipped back down to where it was pre-Trammel after an initial spike.
Did Trammel cause UO's growth to be stunted? No way of telling.
It's been a very long time since I've read anything on these forums that was so well written, TRUE and accurate, very good post OP.
I can't say much in regards to Darkfall as I have not been following this title.
I can say this however that covers just about all mmorpg's, exploiting, scripting, hack using is the preferred method that most players use that support PvP, FACT.
Even in FPS online gaming that I predominantly play nowadays and prefer over mmorpg's anymore players in mass are using hacks.
There are still quite a few players like me who play fair and do not resort to using all of the above I mentioned however it is so rampant in any type of online gaming that playing singleplayer games or co-op seems to be the best gaming experiences now.
If I play multuiplayer games it is only with people I know. It is such a shame that online gaming has turned this course and is ruining it not just for all honorable gamers but for newcomers as well.
I've seen alot of fair players turn to using scripts, hacks and all that stuff just to compete against the ones that have been using them, there is no end to it. So for all those that have retained their honor and not resorting to the level of the no-skilled players using unfair methods I salute you.
Originally posted by Clixgamer Think about what you are saying here. Say for instance you finally looted this uber epic xtra rare sword off a Boss that you have been trying to get for over a week. Now comes the gankin scenarios as you are traveling home with your new found treasure: WoW: You get killed and get sent back to a graveyard. You res with loot intact, hey he actually did me a favor. UO: You get killed. You roam around as a ghost looking for a roaming healer. Once you find one the killer then proceeds to continue to kill you again with the uber epic super rare sword that you spent all that time trying to obtain. Yes essentially time is what you are losing, but one I am willing to live with and continue playing, the other I am not.
i made an account because you make me so mad.
you miss the whole reason to play UO or a game like it. the interactions are what define these types of games, not the loot. there is a reason that up untill AOS, uo had no super uber weapons. it wasnt about items! if you thought it was boy were you mistaken! i could kill someone with an axe off an orc and 20 bandages. no matter how much good shit you had, if you couldnt control your character as good as me, i would be prying those items off your corpse.
why would you grind for anything??! what a pathetic waste of time that would be! you're grinding for an imaginary digital item.. hell you dont own it! it does you no real good. the only reason to play a game like this is for entertainment. what value does that stupid fucking sword hold? nothing.
in uo if you had vanq stuff, and you used it, you did marginally better than someone with gm items. it was no major tip of the scales. if you think it was, christ you never fought me.
whats the point of hording items or getting uber shit, if it barely makes your character bettter than mine? thats the point of UO and hopefully DF. having items helps, but its no game breaker. you also missed that in DF mosnters drop tons of equiptment.. a fully equipt gobo drops everything when he dies. its reasonable to think you could bank many many sets of weaps and armor.. so why bitch about losing one?
I just dont understand what kind of entertainment you can get from killing some stupid npc for some dumb sword. what does that do for you? to grind your ass off for a digital nothing? the only real fun in a game like this is the interaction. good or bad. you missed it entirely while you were looking in the mirror: at your stupid uber armor and your dumb fucking sword.
Actually, I recall that what set you apart in UO was a combination of how well you knew how to use the exploits paired with how good you were at macroing skills so you could train them up fast enough to be useful.
Yay for spending 10 hours macro'ing chopping down a tree!
Yeah some did that kind of chit, many were banned, many were not. I reported them when I saw them. Anyways no that wasn't how the majority played. In regards to the exploits atleast.
As far as Macroing, yeah that happend a lot. Sad that it did, but it did. So many people do this kind of chit in so many games and it doesn't make any sense to me. If you don't have fun playing....... then why play?
They do it in different ways in Linear games though. Easier to do in level based games since it just requires XP to advance lol.
In reply to OP the original poster: It's been a very long time since I've read anything on these forums that was so well written, TRUE and accurate, very good post OP. I can't say much in regards to Darkfall as I have not been following this title. I can say this however that covers just about all mmorpg's, exploiting, scripting, hack using is the preferred method that most players use that support PvP and PvE, FACT. Even in FPS online gaming that I predominantly play nowadays and prefer over mmorpg's anymore players in mass are using hacks. There are still quite a few players like me who play fair and do not resort to using all of the above I mentioned however it is so rampant in any type of online gaming that playing singleplayer games or co-op seems to be the best gaming experiences now. If I play multuiplayer games it is only with people I know. It is such a shame that online gaming has turned this course and is ruining it not just for all honorable gamers but for newcomers as well. I've seen alot of fair players turn to using scripts, hacks and all that stuff just to compete against the ones that have been using them, there is no end to it. So for all those that have retained their honor and not resorting to the level of the no-skilled players using unfair methods I salute you.
Added part in red to make your statement True.
Edited to add: Reason I added the part in red is I have seen just as much of the above in PvE only games as I have in PvP games. I have played UO, AoC, LoTRO, Vanguard, EQ, EQ2, FFXI, SWG, I can't even remember them all off hand lol. What I have noticed is regardless if it's PvP or PvE the cheaters are there.
you can look at mmochart.org or whatever that site is. Note that I said that it started increasing when trammel was 'announced'. Subscription were dropping, and then turned around about 6 months before the actual release of trammel.
That is such a load of bullshit. If you checked out MMOGChart yourself, you will see that not ONCE prior to Trammel did UO see a decline. NOT ONCE!
I can't believe you refer to a source, that DISPROVES your claim. What is your real motivation?
A few enhancements of the MMOGCharts I made once upon a time:
Please point me to the spot where UO had a decline prior to Trammel (UO:R). It doesn't exist. On the other hand, once Trammel released, the increase was broken off, almost to a stagnation, from an increase rate, that matched EQ. This was caused by all the old players leaving.
UO topped off forever subscription-wise some 6 months after Trammel, and THEN began the decline.
Trammel didnt destroy UO. Age of Shadow february 2003 was what ruined UO. Heck, powerscrolls implementation ruined UO alot more then trammel ever did.
After trammel implementation early 2000 the subs raised from 180K to 240K in a years time. That trammel ruined UO is something that the pre-trammel players made up. Facts of increasing subs and the no decreasing of players in felucca after trammel proves that the talk of trammel ruined UO is nothing but just that, alot of talk with no facts behind the words.
Powerscrolls made more people leave UO and felucca then the implementation of trammel ever did.
Powerscrolls were introduced to UO 23 july 2002. If you check MMOGCHART you see the dip in subs just after they implemented powerscrolls. Subs went down 15K after the powerscrolls were introduced.
Age of Shadows implemented february 2003 which was a carebear patch with uberweapons, insurances, retarded templates and a ridicolous spellsystem ruined UO.
Even the Chart you link to shows a decline after Trammel was introduced. Sure it spike to about 240k in April 2001 but it dropped back down to about 200k Prior to 2003 where AoS generated another Spike that hit the 250k Mark and then did nothing but decline from there.
No Trammel may not have destroyed UO, it didn't save UO either. Even the chart you used showed that Trammel generated a Brief increase up to 240k subs for that lasted a few months that leveled off to about 220k subs which then dropped back down to around 200k subs by 2003. In 2003 it spiked to 250k with AoS which didn't last long either, From 2003 and on it was nothing but a decline.
While Trammel may not have destroyed UO , it certainly didn't do much to help it. Since Trammel there has been nothing but a decline with brief influxes that drop more than they rose.
And yes I agree with AoS being the final nail in the coffin. Dropped like a rock after that.
Did Trammel Save UO? No, It had a brief spike that dropped back down to where it was Pre-Trammel.
Did Trammel Kill UO? No, it actually just dipped back down to where it was pre-Trammel after an initial spike.
Did Trammel cause UO's growth to be stunted? No way of telling.
So it boils down to personal opinion.
I and most I knew despised Trammel.
I hear some liked it.
Just for the record, im in no way someone that applauds the implementation of trammel to UO. It was a bad move.
Trammel however did very little damage to felucca as i see it.
What more or less did the really bad damage was powerscrolls and the patch Age of Shadows.
Back in UO we used UO-Assist just like everyone else on the server. It was hardly an exploit as much as a feature set. A few people used a macro tool from time to time but it was frowned upon in general.
We never had any problem competing or even thriving.
There were greifers in every MMOG I have ever played. They were easy enough to spot in UO. Play smart and it was never a problem to avoid them. If they piss you off enough then you kill them. If they have a group then you put together a bigger group. Griefers tended to have far fewer friends and allies than a well organized mature guild.
My point is that immature people trying to take advantage of the system were never able to make the game any less enjoyable for the rest of the players. In fact, sometimes their attempts made for some great entertainment.
I did not read all the replies so sorry if I missed something but, I played UO from beta, into launch and up until EQ1 launched (new 3D graphics and such got me interested in EQ) but that was the only reason I left and the game was doing extremely well at the time. So to claim that it was failing is absurd. if anything brought on the decline of UO its was Tram.
Aragon, that is something I can agree with you 100%, powerscrolls and Age of Shadows destroyed UO, prior to that it was fine. Even Trammel did not hurt it.
Wow! Who tinkled in your Cheerios? Look, I am not trying to establish who it the better gamer, I am trying to state my preference on gaming. I will be the first to tell you that I am not the best at video games. It's not that I just suck, it is just that I don't really have that much time to put into the game with a wife, kids, work, dog, cats, and college to deal with on a daily basis. I know I have to take precautions. I didn't play UO for 2 years straight for nothing. I just don't really have the patience for it anymore. I also WANT Darkfall to succeed, because in theory it sounds like the perfect mmorpg. And I am not trying to shoot it down. But anytime you throw in the human factor, unexpected things happen. I am sure Lord British was totally shocked when he was killed by a player while giving a speech during Beta. So lets just sit back and relax. Squeeze our stress toys, and see that I told you...um oh I mean see what a great game Darkfall will become.
Very good response. Despite the beginning of my rant being directed towards you, the rest was general. It is definitely understandable that people may have lost the patience for UO, specifically because of the rule set that it had.
I was not trying to establish who the better gamer was either, however I see that it may have come across that way. The fact of the matter is that I do not believe that the MMO player of today can last in in an MMO world where it is skill that determines how good they are, not items. Not that it should be demeaning to anybody, but I believe it whole-heartedly. It is just the mindset that people have come to be comfortable with and rarely do people wish to lose their items.
Touche.
Oh and about LB dying - That's hilarious. They should have given him 9,999 hitpoints or something, but still funny.
Comments
But you are losing something, your time. This is exactly the same thing that you lose in a ffa full loot game.
Think about what you are saying here. Say for instance you finally looted this uber epic xtra rare sword off a Boss that you have been trying to get for over a week. Now comes the gankin scenarios as you are traveling home with your new found treasure:
WoW: You get killed and get sent back to a graveyard. You res with loot intact, hey he actually did me a favor.
UO: You get killed. You roam around as a ghost looking for a roaming healer. Once you find one the killer then proceeds to continue to kill you again with the uber epic super rare sword that you spent all that time trying to obtain.
Yes essentially time is what you are losing, but one I am willing to live with and continue playing, the other I am not.
Think about what you are saying here. Say for instance you knew what you were talking about or even played Ultima Online. You would know that items like that didn't come out until after Trammel (MUCH later) and anything that was considered the best possible was not what made the difference between a successful PK or anti-PK.
Pretty much all you need is common sense in a game where you have the possibility of dying and losing something.
I joined Ultima Online shortly after T2A was implemented and the only reasons I was ganked was because I was 12 years old and was trying to mine and nothing else. Once I used this thing called a brain that you're supposed to be born with you realize that there are some precautionary measures that you must take. I later started mining in low to non existant traffic areas as well as on a boat that I had saved up to purchase. From there I would make sure I knew my escape route from any dungeons I was in on my melee or mage at all times.
All it took was less than 15 seconds and a little bit of attention and I rarely had to worry about dying to someone unless I was jumped while I had old school dragons on me. Chances of that happening though? Very low because I paid attention. Oh, I guess you also have to be good at the game too, but even if you weren't, you could Kal Ort Por (Recall) out very quickly.
We need to get a wambulance in here I think. You idiots need to learn the description of what a nocebo is. You're all planting a seed of doom before you even get to play the game and I'm laughing the entire time.
But you are losing something, your time. This is exactly the same thing that you lose in a ffa full loot game.
Think about what you are saying here. Say for instance you finally looted this uber epic xtra rare sword off a Boss that you have been trying to get for over a week. Now comes the gankin scenarios as you are traveling home with your new found treasure:
WoW: You get killed and get sent back to a graveyard. You res with loot intact, hey he actually did me a favor.
UO: You get killed. You roam around as a ghost looking for a roaming healer. Once you find one the killer then proceeds to continue to kill you again with the uber epic super rare sword that you spent all that time trying to obtain.
Yes essentially time is what you are losing, but one I am willing to live with and continue playing, the other I am not.
Think about what you are saying here. Say for instance you knew what you were talking about or even played Ultima Online. You would know that items like that didn't come out until after Trammel (MUCH later) and anything that was considered the best possible was not what made the difference between a successful PK or anti-PK.
Pretty much all you need is common sense in a game where you have the possibility of dying and losing something.
I joined Ultima Online shortly after T2A was implemented and the only reasons I was ganked was because I was 12 years old and was trying to mine and nothing else. Once I used this thing called a brain that you're supposed to be born with you realize that there are some precautionary measures that you must take. I later started mining in low to non existant traffic areas as well as on a boat that I had saved up to purchase. From there I would make sure I knew my escape route from any dungeons I was in on my melee or mage at all times.
All it took was less than 15 seconds and a little bit of attention and I rarely had to worry about dying to someone unless I was jumped while I had old school dragons on me. Chances of that happening though? Very low because I paid attention. Oh, I guess you also have to be good at the game too, but even if you weren't, you could Kal Ort Por (Recall) out very quickly.
We need to get a wambulance in here I think. You idiots need to learn the description of what a nocebo is. You're all planting a seed of doom before you even get to play the game and I'm laughing the entire time.
Wow! Who tinkled in your Cheerios?
Look, I am not trying to establish who it the better gamer, I am trying to state my preference on gaming. I will be the first to tell you that I am not the best at video games. It's not that I just suck, it is just that I don't really have that much time to put into the game with a wife, kids, work, dog, cats, and college to deal with on a daily basis.
I know I have to take precautions. I didn't play UO for 2 years straight for nothing. I just don't really have the patience for it anymore. I also WANT Darkfall to succeed, because in theory it sounds like the perfect mmorpg. And I am not trying to shoot it down. But anytime you throw in the human factor, unexpected things happen. I am sure Lord British was totally shocked when he was killed by a player while giving a speech during Beta.
So lets just sit back and relax. Squeeze our stress toys, and see that I told you...um oh I mean see what a great game Darkfall will become.
You are quite catastrophologist and i ll asnwer to most of the concerns you brought:
2. Every time you login to DF you are fully aware what will happen if you see your latt sucks that day and if you go out adventuring with lagg,its arisky desicion you make. In wow and all other succesfull games if your latt sucks u cant do athing also.. You cant pvp arena or bg's ,you cant raid ,you cant even do heroics dungeons or simple dungeons cause u ll probably be a weight to your mates and if u r a tank or healer u ll probably wipe them,so lagg affects all games not only DF. From what i hear they have made good job in minimizing lagg probs and if thats true thats a great plus to the game especially since combat is manual.
3.Game is skill based and not lvl based, and you ll see many higher lvl players that think they r awesome wariors gettig pawned many times by lowbies that actually are more skilled than them.and since its up to my PERSONAL skills as a player to counter enemies let em come... Besides that even in wow which is supposed to be pvp safe game there are ca,mping/griefing issues,and apart that we r talking DF is a huge world with hundernds of spots to pve with mobs,so its not easy to track down ppl to gang em.
4.My answers at 3 cover you 4.also ....
5.Class balance? quite lol my friend...since there are no classes, in fact just hundrends of skills to chhose from to define ,there are just some hundrends of thousands of class combos that your avatar will be depending which u choose. If someone is loosing mostly because of the skills he chooosed that means HE and only HE made bad calls for his avatar AND THATS THE BEST THING IN THE GAME in my opinion.Freedom in character development so everyone can be what he wants... In DF there are NOT issues like class balance... Just good and bad choises you make and that seperates good from bad players as it SHOULD be!!
6.Good question.. new lonely players what will do? hmm dont know perhaps ask any guild to join them? and in a game like DF be sure my friend all noobies /starters will be most welcome to any guild since its mostly skill based than gear grinding /famring like wow.. Since its not easy to understand how much strong is aguy ingame he can play his role im sure in guild fights even if his skills aren t raised enough since hes new player... What if he wants to play lone wolf in DF? Aventurine has clearly stated that it can be done but it has its risks... so thew player is fully aware of the dangers that lurk ahead..
as for your conclusions ?
1. New players will be addicted unless they want risk free pvp gl in wow...
2. Flavor of the month class as i explained you above doesnt exist...
3.Gear grinding not existing the way u put it.. Its very easy to ahve lots of decent sets stored in bank so whenever u need to replace lost gear u have it.
Ah and by the way new subrace discovered... half-troll =P
I also question your UO experience. Justice system? Games like Ultima Online had a magnificent justice system, it was called player justice. There is not a more beautiful thing than putting the task in the player's hands to do the right thing, and although the "social experiment" known as Ultima Online was deemed a failure, I never understood why. It failed only because the development team became scared and followed suit of it's new-age competition. I can post screenshots of literally thousands of players rallying in Lord British's castle desperately trying to talk OSI out of implementing trammel, most quit after their cries were ignored.
Lack of community? I whole-heartedly beg to differ, and it again makes me question your experiences in UO. Never in any game before or since had I ever felt such strong bonds with my fellow players or guildmates. There is no feeling like entering into a dungeon with a stranger, watching him closely at all times because you know he could backstab you when you least expect it. A murderer rolls in and begins casting spells on you, but your partner distracts him and screams to you "Get out of here!". He dies and loses all of his gear to save you, there's been nothing like the bonds that grow from these kinds of interactions in any game since.
MASSIVE communities were built in this game based on these type of formed bonds, and most of them continue in the MMO world today just because they built this strong trust from early Ultima Online. I can remember cities built by the players with no NPC laws whatsoever that were safer than the middle of West Britain bank itself. If a griefer tried anything short of tipping his hat in fear at you, these player guilds would rain hell down upon him proving the fact that there was plenty of reason to maintain and grow. The interactions on a daily basis really did create a tangible reward far greater than any end-game epic rare or new expansion could ever create.
To say the playerbase (or lack of) was the downfall of Ultima Online would not only be selling it short, but flat out wrong.
The problem I have is the portion in red..............
Within the first 6 months of release it reached 100k subs, this was in 1997. Subs continued to grow steadily up until 2000 when Trammel was introduced. With the introduction to trammel, the number of subs UO had still grew but grew at a much slower pace than it did prior to trammel. In fact it took them 3 years to hit that 250k after trammel. A tidbit of Info many like to disregard, in 1999 UO had over 200k subs lol, in 2001 they hit a peak of 240k it took 2 years to get 10k new subs after trammel was introduced. The majority of the subs were pre-trammel.
1997 - 100k subs
3 years later
1999 - 200k subs
2 years later
2001 - 240k subs
2 years later
2003 - 250k subs
And you are honestly trying to say it was bleeding subs pre-Trammel? When it only gained 40k subs 2 years later and an additional 10k subs 2 years after that?
If anything Trammel Stunted UO's growth, Im sorry thats how I feel. This is of course merely my opinion having been there since launch and staying up until 2 years ago and taking the facts that were available into consideration.
I'm going to agree with you. In addition, I'll offer a timeline for anyone out of the loop.
Pre-trammel Felucca was packed full of player housing. (people were paying triple house prices just for the plot of land without the deed) It's my belief that many people were duped into becoming "Trammies" because OSI offered double the open land for housing with their new "no-aggro" ruleset. After they officially made the move they pretty much stayed in that facet and became softened by the ruleset.
The sad irony in the end was that all of the people who were sucked over there for housing found themselves with the same exact problem. Trammel was absolutely packed (forget 3x house prices, try even higher) and Felucca was now barren and open. No one was willing to leave the newfound lifestyle for housing. The introduction of more land expansions just compounded the problem.
That is such a load of bullshit. If you checked out MMOGChart yourself, you will see that not ONCE prior to Trammel did UO see a decline. NOT ONCE!
I can't believe you refer to a source, that DISPROVES your claim. What is your real motivation?
A few enhancements of the MMOGCharts I made once upon a time:
www.mercenaries.ws/Subscriptions-mod.gif
www.mercenaries.ws/Subscriptions-mod2.gif
Please point me to the spot where UO had a decline prior to Trammel (UO:R). It doesn't exist. On the other hand, once Trammel released, the increase was broken off, almost to a stagnation, from an increase rate, that matched EQ. This was caused by all the old players leaving.
UO topped off forever subscription-wise some 6 months after Trammel, and THEN began the decline.
But, by your logic, you can also say that people liked Trammel, becase no one left when it was released. And by that time, the market was flooded, which sort of stunted population growth.
"Luckily I know that while you make nonsnese baiting threads that get locked....threads I make get sticked by the mods on this forum...." -imbant (greatest board warrior EVER)
Darkfall Countdown: http://darkfallreleasedate.com/
That is such a load of bullshit. If you checked out MMOGChart yourself, you will see that not ONCE prior to Trammel did UO see a decline. NOT ONCE!
I can't believe you refer to a source, that DISPROVES your claim. What is your real motivation?
A few enhancements of the MMOGCharts I made once upon a time:
www.mercenaries.ws/Subscriptions-mod.gif
www.mercenaries.ws/Subscriptions-mod2.gif
Please point me to the spot where UO had a decline prior to Trammel (UO:R). It doesn't exist. On the other hand, once Trammel released, the increase was broken off, almost to a stagnation, from an increase rate, that matched EQ. This was caused by all the old players leaving.
UO topped off forever subscription-wise some 6 months after Trammel, and THEN began the decline.
But, by your logic, you can also say that people liked Trammel, becase no one left when it was released. And by that time, the market was flooded, which sort of stunted population growth.
I was one that did not leave. I didn't stay because I liked Trammel, I stayed because even with the addition of Trammel, UO was better than most of what was out there. I mean if most liked trammel, the enormous ammount of QQ posts along with hundreds of petitions signed by thousands and thousands would not have kept poping up asking for a Origins Shard. It became customary for anyone that was asking what the community wanted as an official representative would say before any asked "And don't ask for an Origins Shard, it's not going to happen." Oddly enough they still do so today XD.
I agree with the OP i wouldnt have put it better myself, im all for fierce clan wars, sieges and control over servers but like the OP I feel DF(if it comes out with all these features), will be plagued by ganking and there willl be no competition, I have seen some people including myself bring this up and most people seem to think people will band together and hunt down criminals which is pretty naive and wishfull thinking, people will ALWAYS join the stronger side, and once a group is strong enough to control everyone else the stronger will join them.
I for one would happier with a more "soft" penalty if you wanna call it, AKA L2 system, this worked pretty well the consequences were still there and they werent that soft but it didnt go into the realm of everyone mindless ganking "just because" , ganking people just because you can completely sets me off the medieval fantasy setting, it takes reasoning away from killing someone else.
A good case study is Lineage 2 Official and Private Servers, on the official servers you had powerfull alliances, sieges, people banding together to take down the powerfull, more strategic pvp, alliances gathering gear for their members which took alot of hard work. Going red(criminal) wasnt a thing you would do lightly you wouldnt go out and just kill everyone else on the road but if you see a guy from an enemy force you would surely engage him and go red if needed.
On a private server where gear is most of the time(some servers have normal rates) meaninggless and you could buy replacements if you lost any, starting zones are plagued with red people that spent a minimum time to get an edge on the newbie players and just killed everything on sight.
EVE is the best example of a FFA PVP-oriented sandbox MMO that is still around today and has been growing steadily for the past 5 years.
that said, EVE provides a lot of protection for PVE-only players in high-sec space, and this is something that DF will not have.
i didn't play UO so i can't really relate to your experiences but it's hard to imagine any MMO in 2008 being able to survive financially without being able to attract and retain PVE-oriented players (ie 50-50 PVE/PVP, the majority) as well as pure PVPers.
Everquest released in 1999 which was the biggest contributor to UO's stunted growth because Everquest was a better game for both PVE and on the PVP servers. It didn't have much to do with PVP or the type of PVP, it had more to do with the overall quality and content.
A lot of people that you consider "Naive" think people will band together etc. because we have done so in the past. The "wishful thinking" you seem to think some have, we consider more Historical fact. An example would be when CD and FL joined as one guild and then tried to run the server, the responce was several guilds forming an alliance that actual led CD and FL to reconsider there alliance and then split up lol.
Part of the game for many is having that ultimate bad guy to rebel against and eventually destroy. This isn't something Developers have ever managed to truly program into a game. This level of immersion and fun only comes from player Ultimate Evils.
The DF systen is more of a revision of the UO system with some RvR or Faction elements thrown in. The UO system worked for the PvP crowd but was a bit harsh for some of the PvE crowd. The PvE crowd lived with it though and many even enjoyed it, the Carebears did not. The DF system will make it a bit easier on the PvE crowd, the Carebears are never happy with unconsentual PvP, and the PvP'rs will take a small hit to there FFA PvP elements but not enough to be overly upset.
That is such a load of bullshit. If you checked out MMOGChart yourself, you will see that not ONCE prior to Trammel did UO see a decline. NOT ONCE!
I can't believe you refer to a source, that DISPROVES your claim. What is your real motivation?
A few enhancements of the MMOGCharts I made once upon a time:
www.mercenaries.ws/Subscriptions-mod.gif
www.mercenaries.ws/Subscriptions-mod2.gif
Please point me to the spot where UO had a decline prior to Trammel (UO:R). It doesn't exist. On the other hand, once Trammel released, the increase was broken off, almost to a stagnation, from an increase rate, that matched EQ. This was caused by all the old players leaving.
UO topped off forever subscription-wise some 6 months after Trammel, and THEN began the decline.
Trammel didnt destroy UO. Age of Shadow february 2003 was what ruined UO. Heck, powerscrolls implementation ruined UO alot more then trammel ever did.
After trammel implementation early 2000 the subs raised from 180K to 240K in a years time. That trammel ruined UO is something that the pre-trammel players made up. Facts of increasing subs and the no decreasing of players in felucca after trammel proves that the talk of trammel ruined UO is nothing but just that, alot of talk with no facts behind the words.
Powerscrolls made more people leave UO and felucca then the implementation of trammel ever did.
Powerscrolls were introduced to UO 23 july 2002. If you check MMOGCHART you see the dip in subs just after they implemented powerscrolls. Subs went down 15K after the powerscrolls were introduced.
http://update.uo.com/design_409.html
http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html
Age of Shadows implemented february 2003 which was a carebear patch with uberweapons, insurances, retarded templates and a ridicolous spellsystem ruined UO.
Well looking at Darkfall's feature list i find removing full-loot FFA PvP equally dumb to WoW removing PvE.
i made an account because you make me so mad.
you miss the whole reason to play UO or a game like it. the interactions are what define these types of games, not the loot. there is a reason that up untill AOS, uo had no super uber weapons. it wasnt about items! if you thought it was boy were you mistaken! i could kill someone with an axe off an orc and 20 bandages. no matter how much good shit you had, if you couldnt control your character as good as me, i would be prying those items off your corpse.
why would you grind for anything??! what a pathetic waste of time that would be! you're grinding for an imaginary digital item.. hell you dont own it! it does you no real good. the only reason to play a game like this is for entertainment. what value does that stupid fucking sword hold? nothing.
in uo if you had vanq stuff, and you used it, you did marginally better than someone with gm items. it was no major tip of the scales. if you think it was, christ you never fought me.
whats the point of hording items or getting uber shit, if it barely makes your character bettter than mine? thats the point of UO and hopefully DF. having items helps, but its no game breaker. you also missed that in DF mosnters drop tons of equiptment.. a fully equipt gobo drops everything when he dies. its reasonable to think you could bank many many sets of weaps and armor.. so why bitch about losing one?
I just dont understand what kind of entertainment you can get from killing some stupid npc for some dumb sword. what does that do for you? to grind your ass off for a digital nothing? the only real fun in a game like this is the interaction. good or bad. you missed it entirely while you were looking in the mirror: at your stupid uber armor and your dumb fucking sword.
Actually, I recall that what set you apart in UO was a combination of how well you knew how to use the exploits paired with how good you were at macroing skills so you could train them up fast enough to be useful.
Yay for spending 10 hours macro'ing chopping down a tree!
That is such a load of bullshit. If you checked out MMOGChart yourself, you will see that not ONCE prior to Trammel did UO see a decline. NOT ONCE!
I can't believe you refer to a source, that DISPROVES your claim. What is your real motivation?
A few enhancements of the MMOGCharts I made once upon a time:
www.mercenaries.ws/Subscriptions-mod.gif
www.mercenaries.ws/Subscriptions-mod2.gif
Please point me to the spot where UO had a decline prior to Trammel (UO:R). It doesn't exist. On the other hand, once Trammel released, the increase was broken off, almost to a stagnation, from an increase rate, that matched EQ. This was caused by all the old players leaving.
UO topped off forever subscription-wise some 6 months after Trammel, and THEN began the decline.
Trammel didnt destroy UO. Age of Shadow february 2003 was what ruined UO. Heck, powerscrolls implementation ruined UO alot more then trammel ever did.
After trammel implementation early 2000 the subs raised from 180K to 240K in a years time. That trammel ruined UO is something that the pre-trammel players made up. Facts of increasing subs and the no decreasing of players in felucca after trammel proves that the talk of trammel ruined UO is nothing but just that, alot of talk with no facts behind the words.
Powerscrolls made more people leave UO and felucca then the implementation of trammel ever did.
Powerscrolls were introduced to UO 23 july 2002. If you check MMOGCHART you see the dip in subs just after they implemented powerscrolls. Subs went down 15K after the powerscrolls were introduced.
http://update.uo.com/design_409.html
http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html
Age of Shadows implemented february 2003 which was a carebear patch with uberweapons, insurances, retarded templates and a ridicolous spellsystem ruined UO.
Even the Chart you link to shows a decline after Trammel was introduced. Sure it spike to about 240k in April 2001 but it dropped back down to about 200k Prior to 2003 where AoS generated another Spike that hit the 250k Mark and then did nothing but decline from there.
No Trammel may not have destroyed UO, it didn't save UO either. Even the chart you used showed that Trammel generated a Brief increase up to 240k subs for that lasted a few months that leveled off to about 220k subs which then dropped back down to around 200k subs by 2003. In 2003 it spiked to 250k with AoS which didn't last long either, From 2003 and on it was nothing but a decline.
While Trammel may not have destroyed UO , it certainly didn't do much to help it. Since Trammel there has been nothing but a decline with brief influxes that drop more than they rose.
And yes I agree with AoS being the final nail in the coffin. Dropped like a rock after that.
Did Trammel Save UO? No, It had a brief spike that dropped back down to where it was Pre-Trammel.
Did Trammel Kill UO? No, it actually just dipped back down to where it was pre-Trammel after an initial spike.
Did Trammel cause UO's growth to be stunted? No way of telling.
So it boils down to personal opinion.
I and most I knew despised Trammel.
I hear some liked it.
In reply to OP the original poster:
It's been a very long time since I've read anything on these forums that was so well written, TRUE and accurate, very good post OP.
I can't say much in regards to Darkfall as I have not been following this title.
I can say this however that covers just about all mmorpg's, exploiting, scripting, hack using is the preferred method that most players use that support PvP, FACT.
Even in FPS online gaming that I predominantly play nowadays and prefer over mmorpg's anymore players in mass are using hacks.
There are still quite a few players like me who play fair and do not resort to using all of the above I mentioned however it is so rampant in any type of online gaming that playing singleplayer games or co-op seems to be the best gaming experiences now.
If I play multuiplayer games it is only with people I know. It is such a shame that online gaming has turned this course and is ruining it not just for all honorable gamers but for newcomers as well.
I've seen alot of fair players turn to using scripts, hacks and all that stuff just to compete against the ones that have been using them, there is no end to it. So for all those that have retained their honor and not resorting to the level of the no-skilled players using unfair methods I salute you.
i made an account because you make me so mad.
you miss the whole reason to play UO or a game like it. the interactions are what define these types of games, not the loot. there is a reason that up untill AOS, uo had no super uber weapons. it wasnt about items! if you thought it was boy were you mistaken! i could kill someone with an axe off an orc and 20 bandages. no matter how much good shit you had, if you couldnt control your character as good as me, i would be prying those items off your corpse.
why would you grind for anything??! what a pathetic waste of time that would be! you're grinding for an imaginary digital item.. hell you dont own it! it does you no real good. the only reason to play a game like this is for entertainment. what value does that stupid fucking sword hold? nothing.
in uo if you had vanq stuff, and you used it, you did marginally better than someone with gm items. it was no major tip of the scales. if you think it was, christ you never fought me.
whats the point of hording items or getting uber shit, if it barely makes your character bettter than mine? thats the point of UO and hopefully DF. having items helps, but its no game breaker. you also missed that in DF mosnters drop tons of equiptment.. a fully equipt gobo drops everything when he dies. its reasonable to think you could bank many many sets of weaps and armor.. so why bitch about losing one?
I just dont understand what kind of entertainment you can get from killing some stupid npc for some dumb sword. what does that do for you? to grind your ass off for a digital nothing? the only real fun in a game like this is the interaction. good or bad. you missed it entirely while you were looking in the mirror: at your stupid uber armor and your dumb fucking sword.
Actually, I recall that what set you apart in UO was a combination of how well you knew how to use the exploits paired with how good you were at macroing skills so you could train them up fast enough to be useful.
Yay for spending 10 hours macro'ing chopping down a tree!
Yeah some did that kind of chit, many were banned, many were not. I reported them when I saw them. Anyways no that wasn't how the majority played. In regards to the exploits atleast.
As far as Macroing, yeah that happend a lot. Sad that it did, but it did. So many people do this kind of chit in so many games and it doesn't make any sense to me. If you don't have fun playing....... then why play?
They do it in different ways in Linear games though. Easier to do in level based games since it just requires XP to advance lol.
Added part in red to make your statement True.
Edited to add: Reason I added the part in red is I have seen just as much of the above in PvE only games as I have in PvP games. I have played UO, AoC, LoTRO, Vanguard, EQ, EQ2, FFXI, SWG, I can't even remember them all off hand lol. What I have noticed is regardless if it's PvP or PvE the cheaters are there.
That is such a load of bullshit. If you checked out MMOGChart yourself, you will see that not ONCE prior to Trammel did UO see a decline. NOT ONCE!
I can't believe you refer to a source, that DISPROVES your claim. What is your real motivation?
A few enhancements of the MMOGCharts I made once upon a time:
www.mercenaries.ws/Subscriptions-mod.gif
www.mercenaries.ws/Subscriptions-mod2.gif
Please point me to the spot where UO had a decline prior to Trammel (UO:R). It doesn't exist. On the other hand, once Trammel released, the increase was broken off, almost to a stagnation, from an increase rate, that matched EQ. This was caused by all the old players leaving.
UO topped off forever subscription-wise some 6 months after Trammel, and THEN began the decline.
Trammel didnt destroy UO. Age of Shadow february 2003 was what ruined UO. Heck, powerscrolls implementation ruined UO alot more then trammel ever did.
After trammel implementation early 2000 the subs raised from 180K to 240K in a years time. That trammel ruined UO is something that the pre-trammel players made up. Facts of increasing subs and the no decreasing of players in felucca after trammel proves that the talk of trammel ruined UO is nothing but just that, alot of talk with no facts behind the words.
Powerscrolls made more people leave UO and felucca then the implementation of trammel ever did.
Powerscrolls were introduced to UO 23 july 2002. If you check MMOGCHART you see the dip in subs just after they implemented powerscrolls. Subs went down 15K after the powerscrolls were introduced.
http://update.uo.com/design_409.html
http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html
Age of Shadows implemented february 2003 which was a carebear patch with uberweapons, insurances, retarded templates and a ridicolous spellsystem ruined UO.
Even the Chart you link to shows a decline after Trammel was introduced. Sure it spike to about 240k in April 2001 but it dropped back down to about 200k Prior to 2003 where AoS generated another Spike that hit the 250k Mark and then did nothing but decline from there.
No Trammel may not have destroyed UO, it didn't save UO either. Even the chart you used showed that Trammel generated a Brief increase up to 240k subs for that lasted a few months that leveled off to about 220k subs which then dropped back down to around 200k subs by 2003. In 2003 it spiked to 250k with AoS which didn't last long either, From 2003 and on it was nothing but a decline.
While Trammel may not have destroyed UO , it certainly didn't do much to help it. Since Trammel there has been nothing but a decline with brief influxes that drop more than they rose.
And yes I agree with AoS being the final nail in the coffin. Dropped like a rock after that.
Did Trammel Save UO? No, It had a brief spike that dropped back down to where it was Pre-Trammel.
Did Trammel Kill UO? No, it actually just dipped back down to where it was pre-Trammel after an initial spike.
Did Trammel cause UO's growth to be stunted? No way of telling.
So it boils down to personal opinion.
I and most I knew despised Trammel.
I hear some liked it.
Just for the record, im in no way someone that applauds the implementation of trammel to UO. It was a bad move.
Trammel however did very little damage to felucca as i see it.
What more or less did the really bad damage was powerscrolls and the patch Age of Shadows.
Back in UO we used UO-Assist just like everyone else on the server. It was hardly an exploit as much as a feature set. A few people used a macro tool from time to time but it was frowned upon in general.
We never had any problem competing or even thriving.
There were greifers in every MMOG I have ever played. They were easy enough to spot in UO. Play smart and it was never a problem to avoid them. If they piss you off enough then you kill them. If they have a group then you put together a bigger group. Griefers tended to have far fewer friends and allies than a well organized mature guild.
My point is that immature people trying to take advantage of the system were never able to make the game any less enjoyable for the rest of the players. In fact, sometimes their attempts made for some great entertainment.
I did not read all the replies so sorry if I missed something but, I played UO from beta, into launch and up until EQ1 launched (new 3D graphics and such got me interested in EQ) but that was the only reason I left and the game was doing extremely well at the time. So to claim that it was failing is absurd. if anything brought on the decline of UO its was Tram.
www.90and9.net
www.prophecymma.com
Aragon, that is something I can agree with you 100%, powerscrolls and Age of Shadows destroyed UO, prior to that it was fine. Even Trammel did not hurt it.
Very good response. Despite the beginning of my rant being directed towards you, the rest was general. It is definitely understandable that people may have lost the patience for UO, specifically because of the rule set that it had.
I was not trying to establish who the better gamer was either, however I see that it may have come across that way. The fact of the matter is that I do not believe that the MMO player of today can last in in an MMO world where it is skill that determines how good they are, not items. Not that it should be demeaning to anybody, but I believe it whole-heartedly. It is just the mindset that people have come to be comfortable with and rarely do people wish to lose their items.
Touche.
Oh and about LB dying - That's hilarious. They should have given him 9,999 hitpoints or something, but still funny.