Originally posted by jimmyman99 Even if there are no pre-orders, hopes and expectations would be crushed. In a better example, if you go to pizza pizza for a slice, and you spend 30 minutes waiting for them to bake you a pizza, and at the end, the guy says, "well, that was the last pizza, but its for us. Sorry, come again tomorrow". then, according to your logic, you shouldn't be pissed because you did not pay for it. But im betting you would be.
Yes it would be annoying, but I view more along the lines of a new pizza restaurant is under construction nearby and there are signs for it on the outside of the site "pizza place coming soon" , and then one day the project is cancelled. I'm not going to phone up the construction company and demand appology.
Your example is a bit too vague. to be more specific, lets say the new restaurant is opining in 2 weeks, and the owner gave out special invitations or what have you. The restaurant is openinig in a week. You make your plans, you invite your family, then boom. The place is gone.
Your example would fit perfectly if there was no release date, or at least not a close one. Then yeah, things happen. A good example is Gods and Heroes, I kinda liked it, but it went kapoof. Well, since it was not near release it was hurtfull, but it wasnt hurtfull enough for me to tear my hair and screem likea schoolgirl "WHERES MY GAMEEEEEEE WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA".
Theres a certain limit human patience can go. Personally, I took interest in DF just this year, so I dont really feel that "game has been in development for 10 years" feeling or "it has been postponed 20 times". To me, if it will be postponed, its for the first time. But I can't deny the history of the game, and I feel for all the fans whose expectations were poped faster then Michael Jackson's bank account. We, the gamers, must stick together and fight for our rights. If I fight for your right today, maybe you will fight for my rights tommorow. And maybe, just maybe, game developers will learn the lesson and stop making false promises and unrealisting release dates.
Originally posted by jimmyman99 Your example is a bit too vague. to be more specific, lets say the new restaurant is opining in 2 weeks, and the owner gave out special invitations or what have you. The restaurant is openinig in a week. You make your plans, you invite your family, then boom. The place is gone. Your example would fit perfectly if there was no release date, or at least not a close one. Then yeah, things happen. A good example is Gods and Heroes, I kinda liked it, but it went kapoof. Well, since it was not near release it was hurtfull, but it wasnt hurtfull enough for me to tear my hair and screem likea schoolgirl "WHERES MY GAMEEEEEEE WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA". Theres a certain limit human patience can go. Personally, I took interest in DF just this year, so I dont really feel that "game has been in development for 10 years" feeling or "it has been postponed 20 times". To me, if it will be postponed, its for the first time. But I can't deny the history of the game, and I feel for all the fans whose expectations were poped faster then Michael Jackson's bank account. We, the gamers, must stick together and fight for our rights. If I fight for your right today, maybe you will fight for my rights tommorow. And maybe, just maybe, game developers will learn the lesson and stop making false promises and unrealisting release dates.
There haven't really been any special invitiations though, I suppose that would be pre-orders in the gaming world. It's more like people just making their own arrangement to go there on opening night and then finding out it hasn't opened after all, they didn't bother making any reservation because the company wasn't taking them. I would say they were taking a bit of risk and thats at least partially there fault, as thing don't always go planned and everyone should know this.
I can see your point of view about people hopes and dreams being crushed. Where my view differs is that I don't think that companies should molly coddle people like this, they aren't really responable for the thoughts that go through other peoples heads and unless they have actaully paid them some money they don't owe they anything. If you are paying customer then it's different. You don't see Blizzard appologising for anything ever unless it's to paying customers and they have done something blatently unacceptable, and thats quite right imo.
There haven't really been any special invitiations though, I suppose that would be pre-orders in the gaming world. It's more like people just making their own arrangement to go there on opening night and then finding out it hasn't opened after all, they didn't bother making any reservation because the company wasn't taking them. I would say they were taking a bit of risk and thats at least partially there fault, as thing don't always go planned and everyone should know this. I can see your point of view about people hopes and dreams being crushed. Where my view differs is that I don't think that companies should molly coddle people like this, they aren't really responable for the thoughts that go through other peoples heads and unless they have actaully paid them some money they don't owe they anything. If you are paying customer then it's different. You don't see Blizzard appologising for anything ever unless it's to paying customers and they have done something blatently unacceptable, and thats quite right imo.
Granted, everyone has their own tolerance levels, some may tolerate many mistakes, some may not. But from a business model perspective, wouldn't you want to please your customers? Even if they are potential customers? Especially if it won't cost you much. An apology doesn't cost much, but it may calm down some of the potential customers. Usually, when people are being lied to, or even if simply misinformed (whether on purpose or not), they expect some kind of explanation. If this happens over and over I think they deserve an apology:
"sorry folks, I know ya'll been waiting for this game, but we really did hit a snag with <insert excuse here> and we must postpone the release date once again. Sorry again to keep ya'll waiting. Don't give up hope!"
If Tasos does not apologize, people will assume he doesn't care. And why should we care about his product if he does not cares about us? Personally, I think Tasos has too much ego and not professional enough to apologize. Hes way too aggressive with "up-in-your-face" attitude. This may work fine with friends (I am kinda like that in real life, I speak up my mind even when its not what my friend wants to hear), but this will not work well in a business environment.
DF is not out yet, so we can't say for certain whether it will rule or suck, but Tasos and his ego are hurting the game already. As a CSR rep with 7+ years of experience, I know people like when companies apologize, even when the client is wrong. You just can't throw that in the client's face, it makes them feel stupid. And nobody likes being called stupid.
EDIT: The point i was trying to make is that he doesn't "have" to apologize per say. But, if he does value his clients (potential or not) and if he does want to earn some profit, he has to be more professional.
"sorry folks, I know ya'll been waiting for this game, but we really did hit a snag with <insert excuse here> and we must postpone the release date once again. Sorry again to keep ya'll waiting. Don't give up hope!"
DF is not out yet, so we can't say for certain whether it will rule or suck, but Tasos and his ego are hurting the game already. As a CSR rep with 7+ years of experience, I know people like when companies apologize, even when the client is wrong. You just can't throw that in the client's face, it makes them feel stupid. And nobody likes being called stupid.
If they had a preorder then yes an apology would definitely be required, but as these people haven't ordered anything I would just view them as whiners. It would nice of them to keep people informed but is not necessary in order to be viewed as legitimate reputable company. Not all customers are profitable, the people complaining here are already trying to incur expense on the company and they are not even offering any service yet, imagine what they will be like when it's launched.
I think this might a difference between Britain (and Europe from experience) & NA. I have also worked CS in the past and generally we would not applogise to anyone unless there was an error of some sort by the company that has directly affected the customer. Apologies of any kind are not given lightly as it is an admittance of guilt which later on can cause all kinds of problems. It's ok to say things like "I'm sorry you feel like that" as this puts the onus onto the customer. Nobody is going to receive any kind of apology until the matter has been fully investigated. People do not expect it either, what they want is to be kept informed as to what is being done to fix the problem. If you work in CS you must know how annoying it is when somebody else appologises to a customer and then you have to explain to that customer later on that is was in fact their fault after all, this make some people twice as angry.
If think my attitude is rude you should try going to some other countries in Europe, even I think they are rude but obviously to them that is just the normal way of dealing with things and locals expect this. I don't know about Greece as never been there.
If you start appologising to people for everything they are just going to walk all over you, you have to draw the line somewhere.
This is not a hate thread at all i love some of the ideas in DF and as a long time shadowbane player im exited about this game but the closer we get to the 22t the less the devs are releasing advertising,info,updated website. A few years back some of you might remember a game called Dark and Light big game good ideas great hype but same type of development no info bad website then one month for launch pre orders for downloadable versions came out then game launched only like 50% done few months company vanished and no refunds some even kept getting dinged for monthly after game was gone by click 2 buy i hope this is not the fate of DF but its starting to smell fishy of how such a great game is being kept in the dark SO close to release. cross my fingers and toes this will not happen agian.
Its a small indie developer dont EXSPECT WOW advertisement they working on game and to launch the game instead waste time on talk to fans press or other nonsens.
Anybody who have followed aventurine for years know that there completely different from almost all other mmo makers.
Be patience:)
Quit whining:P
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I guess I'd have to really care if there are leaks. I don't. I'm waiting until the 22 then I will decide where I stand. I'm a critic and that's it. I want the game to succeed because I've been looking for a game like this for a long time. However, I refuse to take Tasos seriously until there is cold hard proof.
lol no offence, and I think you're not doing this on purpose, but you're kindof trolling right now since you "refuse to take Tasos seriously until there is cold hard proof", well what proof are you looking for, leaks aren't enough?
Was that actually a serious question?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Voodoo I dunno about you, but when someone lies to me a few times the information given by them starts loosing credibility and requires more solid evidence for me to believe on it. And thats why not all of the information posted on MMORPG.com requires proof. But maybe you havent acquired this skill yet... common sense.
yea you will get your evidence here soonish.
i wonder if mmorpg.com is prt of the journalist beta umm
Considering Tasos apparent disdain for this site and it's staff, I doubt it. He likes sites that are in his pocket and/or corner.
umm no a journalist is a journalist dont matter
It does matter. No journalist gets close unless Tasos lets them get close. And he doesn't like mmorpg.com. Tasos only allows "journalists" ( in a very loose sense of the word ) who are already infatuated with Darkfall and will swallow his bs without demanding more. Or he employs family or friends.
people get a clue, everything argued here has been said over and over in nearly every DF post and thread on this site.. sheesh
You know, hidden1... I've seen you agonizing publically about this thread in your last few posts.
So long as others are still eager to continue discussing/debating/arguing, they are going to continue to do so, no matter how much you plead for it to be dropped.
Wouldn't it make more sense for you to, you know... stop reading the thread yourself?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Voodoo I dunno about you, but when someone lies to me a few times the information given by them starts loosing credibility and requires more solid evidence for me to believe on it. And thats why not all of the information posted on MMORPG.com requires proof. But maybe you havent acquired this skill yet... common sense.
yea you will get your evidence here soonish.
i wonder if mmorpg.com is prt of the journalist beta umm
Considering Tasos apparent disdain for this site and it's staff, I doubt it. He likes sites that are in his pocket and/or corner.
umm no a journalist is a journalist dont matter
It does matter. No journalist gets close unless Tasos lets them get close. And he doesn't like mmorpg.com. Tasos only allows "journalists" ( in a very loose sense of the word ) who are already infatuated with Darkfall and will swallow his bs without demanding more. Or he employs family or friends.
people get a clue, everything argued here has been said over and over in nearly every DF post and thread on this site.. sheesh
You know, hidden1... I've seen you agonizing publically about this thread in your last few posts.
So long as others are still eager to continue discussing/debating/arguing, they are going to continue to do so, no matter how much you plead for it to be dropped.
Wouldn't it make more sense for you to, you know... stop reading the thread yourself?
Heh... Nah...
That would be silly.
It makes much more sense to make a complaint post and bump the thread back to the top.
You know, hidden1... I've seen you agonizing publically about this thread in your last few posts.
So long as others are still eager to continue discussing/debating/arguing, they are going to continue to do so, no matter how much you plead for it to be dropped.
Wouldn't it make more sense for you to, you know... stop reading the thread yourself?
"sorry folks, I know ya'll been waiting for this game, but we really did hit a snag with <insert excuse here> and we must postpone the release date once again. Sorry again to keep ya'll waiting. Don't give up hope!"
DF is not out yet, so we can't say for certain whether it will rule or suck, but Tasos and his ego are hurting the game already. As a CSR rep with 7+ years of experience, I know people like when companies apologize, even when the client is wrong. You just can't throw that in the client's face, it makes them feel stupid. And nobody likes being called stupid.
If they had a preorder then yes an apology would definitely be required, but as these people haven't ordered anything I would just view them as whiners. It would nice of them to keep people informed but is not necessary in order to be viewed as legitimate reputable company. Not all customers are profitable, the people complaining here are already trying to incur expense on the company and they are not even offering any service yet, imagine what they will be like when it's launched.
I think this might a difference between Britain (and Europe from experience) & NA. I have also worked CS in the past and generally we would not applogise to anyone unless there was an error of some sort by the company that has directly affected the customer. Apologies of any kind are not given lightly as it is an admittance of guilt which later on can cause all kinds of problems. It's ok to say things like "I'm sorry you feel like that" as this puts the onus onto the customer. Nobody is going to receive any kind of apology until the matter has been fully investigated. People do not expect it either, what they want is to be kept informed as to what is being done to fix the problem. If you work in CS you must know how annoying it is when somebody else appologises to a customer and then you have to explain to that customer later on that is was in fact their fault after all, this make some people twice as angry.
If think my attitude is rude you should try going to some other countries in Europe, even I think they are rude but obviously to them that is just the normal way of dealing with things and locals expect this. I don't know about Greece as never been there.
If you start appologising to people for everything they are just going to walk all over you, you have to draw the line somewhere.
I must disagree here. Promises are not an empty wind. It is considered very often as an oral obligation. If they promised you to do fix your car in 2 weeks but they fix it in 3, they should apologize. If they promised to get you a part but they didnt, they should apologize. Europe, North America, Africa, they apologize everywhere. Ive been to Europe and people apologize or not just like they here in NA. Well, maybe a little less in certain countries (specifically in Eastern Europe). But that only shows professionalism of that specific person. A professional will apologize to calm down the client. Ive never had a case where client was angrier after I apologized.
If I do make a promise to a client to call him back in 1 day but I dont, its my fault and I always apologize. I dont have to, but that would be unprofessional. A professional will try to keep their clients happy by providing promised services or apologizing when there is a problem or a delay in promised services. Money has nothing to do with it. Its all about professionalism.
Comments
Yes it would be annoying, but I view more along the lines of a new pizza restaurant is under construction nearby and there are signs for it on the outside of the site "pizza place coming soon" , and then one day the project is cancelled. I'm not going to phone up the construction company and demand appology.
Your example is a bit too vague. to be more specific, lets say the new restaurant is opining in 2 weeks, and the owner gave out special invitations or what have you. The restaurant is openinig in a week. You make your plans, you invite your family, then boom. The place is gone.
Your example would fit perfectly if there was no release date, or at least not a close one. Then yeah, things happen. A good example is Gods and Heroes, I kinda liked it, but it went kapoof. Well, since it was not near release it was hurtfull, but it wasnt hurtfull enough for me to tear my hair and screem likea schoolgirl "WHERES MY GAMEEEEEEE WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA".
Theres a certain limit human patience can go. Personally, I took interest in DF just this year, so I dont really feel that "game has been in development for 10 years" feeling or "it has been postponed 20 times". To me, if it will be postponed, its for the first time. But I can't deny the history of the game, and I feel for all the fans whose expectations were poped faster then Michael Jackson's bank account. We, the gamers, must stick together and fight for our rights. If I fight for your right today, maybe you will fight for my rights tommorow. And maybe, just maybe, game developers will learn the lesson and stop making false promises and unrealisting release dates.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
There haven't really been any special invitiations though, I suppose that would be pre-orders in the gaming world. It's more like people just making their own arrangement to go there on opening night and then finding out it hasn't opened after all, they didn't bother making any reservation because the company wasn't taking them. I would say they were taking a bit of risk and thats at least partially there fault, as thing don't always go planned and everyone should know this.
I can see your point of view about people hopes and dreams being crushed. Where my view differs is that I don't think that companies should molly coddle people like this, they aren't really responable for the thoughts that go through other peoples heads and unless they have actaully paid them some money they don't owe they anything. If you are paying customer then it's different. You don't see Blizzard appologising for anything ever unless it's to paying customers and they have done something blatently unacceptable, and thats quite right imo.
Granted, everyone has their own tolerance levels, some may tolerate many mistakes, some may not. But from a business model perspective, wouldn't you want to please your customers? Even if they are potential customers? Especially if it won't cost you much. An apology doesn't cost much, but it may calm down some of the potential customers. Usually, when people are being lied to, or even if simply misinformed (whether on purpose or not), they expect some kind of explanation. If this happens over and over I think they deserve an apology:
"sorry folks, I know ya'll been waiting for this game, but we really did hit a snag with <insert excuse here> and we must postpone the release date once again. Sorry again to keep ya'll waiting. Don't give up hope!"
If Tasos does not apologize, people will assume he doesn't care. And why should we care about his product if he does not cares about us? Personally, I think Tasos has too much ego and not professional enough to apologize. Hes way too aggressive with "up-in-your-face" attitude. This may work fine with friends (I am kinda like that in real life, I speak up my mind even when its not what my friend wants to hear), but this will not work well in a business environment.
DF is not out yet, so we can't say for certain whether it will rule or suck, but Tasos and his ego are hurting the game already. As a CSR rep with 7+ years of experience, I know people like when companies apologize, even when the client is wrong. You just can't throw that in the client's face, it makes them feel stupid. And nobody likes being called stupid.
EDIT: The point i was trying to make is that he doesn't "have" to apologize per say. But, if he does value his clients (potential or not) and if he does want to earn some profit, he has to be more professional.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
If they had a preorder then yes an apology would definitely be required, but as these people haven't ordered anything I would just view them as whiners. It would nice of them to keep people informed but is not necessary in order to be viewed as legitimate reputable company. Not all customers are profitable, the people complaining here are already trying to incur expense on the company and they are not even offering any service yet, imagine what they will be like when it's launched.
I think this might a difference between Britain (and Europe from experience) & NA. I have also worked CS in the past and generally we would not applogise to anyone unless there was an error of some sort by the company that has directly affected the customer. Apologies of any kind are not given lightly as it is an admittance of guilt which later on can cause all kinds of problems. It's ok to say things like "I'm sorry you feel like that" as this puts the onus onto the customer. Nobody is going to receive any kind of apology until the matter has been fully investigated. People do not expect it either, what they want is to be kept informed as to what is being done to fix the problem. If you work in CS you must know how annoying it is when somebody else appologises to a customer and then you have to explain to that customer later on that is was in fact their fault after all, this make some people twice as angry.
If think my attitude is rude you should try going to some other countries in Europe, even I think they are rude but obviously to them that is just the normal way of dealing with things and locals expect this. I don't know about Greece as never been there.
If you start appologising to people for everything they are just going to walk all over you, you have to draw the line somewhere.
Its a small indie developer dont EXSPECT WOW advertisement they working on game and to launch the game instead waste time on talk to fans press or other nonsens.
Anybody who have followed aventurine for years know that there completely different from almost all other mmo makers.
Be patience:)
Quit whining:P
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
lol no offence, and I think you're not doing this on purpose, but you're kindof trolling right now since you "refuse to take Tasos seriously until there is cold hard proof", well what proof are you looking for, leaks aren't enough?
Was that actually a serious question?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
yea you will get your evidence here soonish.
i wonder if mmorpg.com is prt of the journalist beta umm
Considering Tasos apparent disdain for this site and it's staff, I doubt it. He likes sites that are in his pocket and/or corner.
umm no a journalist is a journalist dont matter
It does matter. No journalist gets close unless Tasos lets them get close. And he doesn't like mmorpg.com. Tasos only allows "journalists" ( in a very loose sense of the word ) who are already infatuated with Darkfall and will swallow his bs without demanding more. Or he employs family or friends.
people get a clue, everything argued here has been said over and over in nearly every DF post and thread on this site.. sheesh
You know, hidden1... I've seen you agonizing publically about this thread in your last few posts.
So long as others are still eager to continue discussing/debating/arguing, they are going to continue to do so, no matter how much you plead for it to be dropped.
Wouldn't it make more sense for you to, you know... stop reading the thread yourself?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
yea you will get your evidence here soonish.
i wonder if mmorpg.com is prt of the journalist beta umm
Considering Tasos apparent disdain for this site and it's staff, I doubt it. He likes sites that are in his pocket and/or corner.
umm no a journalist is a journalist dont matter
It does matter. No journalist gets close unless Tasos lets them get close. And he doesn't like mmorpg.com. Tasos only allows "journalists" ( in a very loose sense of the word ) who are already infatuated with Darkfall and will swallow his bs without demanding more. Or he employs family or friends.
people get a clue, everything argued here has been said over and over in nearly every DF post and thread on this site.. sheesh
You know, hidden1... I've seen you agonizing publically about this thread in your last few posts.
So long as others are still eager to continue discussing/debating/arguing, they are going to continue to do so, no matter how much you plead for it to be dropped.
Wouldn't it make more sense for you to, you know... stop reading the thread yourself?
Heh... Nah...
That would be silly.
It makes much more sense to make a complaint post and bump the thread back to the top.
You know, hidden1... I've seen you agonizing publically about this thread in your last few posts.
So long as others are still eager to continue discussing/debating/arguing, they are going to continue to do so, no matter how much you plead for it to be dropped.
Wouldn't it make more sense for you to, you know... stop reading the thread yourself?
Ding, ding, ding... I think we have a winner
-Almerel
Hello my old friend.
If they had a preorder then yes an apology would definitely be required, but as these people haven't ordered anything I would just view them as whiners. It would nice of them to keep people informed but is not necessary in order to be viewed as legitimate reputable company. Not all customers are profitable, the people complaining here are already trying to incur expense on the company and they are not even offering any service yet, imagine what they will be like when it's launched.
I think this might a difference between Britain (and Europe from experience) & NA. I have also worked CS in the past and generally we would not applogise to anyone unless there was an error of some sort by the company that has directly affected the customer. Apologies of any kind are not given lightly as it is an admittance of guilt which later on can cause all kinds of problems. It's ok to say things like "I'm sorry you feel like that" as this puts the onus onto the customer. Nobody is going to receive any kind of apology until the matter has been fully investigated. People do not expect it either, what they want is to be kept informed as to what is being done to fix the problem. If you work in CS you must know how annoying it is when somebody else appologises to a customer and then you have to explain to that customer later on that is was in fact their fault after all, this make some people twice as angry.
If think my attitude is rude you should try going to some other countries in Europe, even I think they are rude but obviously to them that is just the normal way of dealing with things and locals expect this. I don't know about Greece as never been there.
If you start appologising to people for everything they are just going to walk all over you, you have to draw the line somewhere.
I must disagree here. Promises are not an empty wind. It is considered very often as an oral obligation. If they promised you to do fix your car in 2 weeks but they fix it in 3, they should apologize. If they promised to get you a part but they didnt, they should apologize. Europe, North America, Africa, they apologize everywhere. Ive been to Europe and people apologize or not just like they here in NA. Well, maybe a little less in certain countries (specifically in Eastern Europe). But that only shows professionalism of that specific person. A professional will apologize to calm down the client. Ive never had a case where client was angrier after I apologized.
If I do make a promise to a client to call him back in 1 day but I dont, its my fault and I always apologize. I dont have to, but that would be unprofessional. A professional will try to keep their clients happy by providing promised services or apologizing when there is a problem or a delay in promised services. Money has nothing to do with it. Its all about professionalism.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.