Admitably MMOs follow much30 more of a mold than you'd see in in other genres, Especially when comparing awesome games like CIV IV to other turn based games or even games that people who are sure to buy CIV IV would buy.
I think the biggest problem is that large developers think people only want D&D based stuff, which is pretty stupid for a few reasons. The most notable is that there isn't a lot of room for evolution there, and that all the math was orginally written off old equations commanders would use to calculate losses in medieval massive group combat. And there's no reason at all to target that audience anymore in your games just because most wouldn't know the differance between 2D6 and D20.
I mean you could seriously consider a AAA western RPG(not MMO just RPG) basing it's core mechanics on GURPS(still very similar) a massive leep, I mean even fallout got compliemented on having a quirks mechanic and a few others(when they just based their core mechanics on GURPS instead of D&D).
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All in all I think the thread "all current games suck" is kinda a lame title. While AAA titles certainly do have quite a bit of basis on one another and similar enough mechanics that you can mistake their skill guides for different games. It's not the same elsewhere in the MMO industry, and I'd be willing to include stuff a part of this industry that this site wouldn't as well (web based MMOs, and often times having more RPG to them than others).
Also you weren't expecting any arguement at all. You were expecting everyone to agree with you. While if you play are AAA releases they'd have no reason to disagree at all, but for others we have lots of reasons to.
30: to the power of 30 you shouldn't be looking here. stop. You're reading it wrong
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
All in all I think the thread "all current games suck" is kinda a lame title. .... .....Also you weren't expecting any arguement at all. You were expecting everyone to agree with you. While if you play are AAA releases they'd have no reason to disagree at all, but for others we have lots of reasons to.
All games suck is a pretty lame title you are correct. Had I actually found a reason to use a bit more tact I may have but i'm not playing any mmorpg game right now and have more time then I normally would.
Actually, I was full well expecting one or more people to stand up and tell me what I was thinking though. Its pretty easy to typecast someone when they make a bold statement as such. Tell ya what, i wont walk into Walmart and generally tell everyone they suck for shopping there if you don't try and tell me that I should go play a AAA game.
If I do see the light of these AAA titles should that be the cash shop EQ / EQ 2 games or should I play Vanguard of Wasteland? What if I want my WoW character to feel just a little bit unique? Do you have a spec to reccommend? Do you classify Eve as AAA or should I stick with LOTR or maybe try out WAR? Out of the instanced games should I go for Guildwars or AOC?
Lets put all of the features of these games into a table and match up the common factors. You may consider skill mechanics from one game being mistaken in another but button mashing for stats is button mashing for stats.
The first part of your post is interesting but I think for the second part you need to come of f your high horse a bit. I'm here to discuss with people not argue.
Originally posted by paulscott Originally posted by Dubhlaith
Originally posted by talismen351
Originally posted by paulscott
If you can't find a game you like... You have issues.
This website alone has over a hundred, if you broaden your horizons a bit more it comes to a few thousand playable games.
So you are saying if ya don't wanna play WoW or a WoW clone, or an ugly, boring, old, outdated (basically a WoW clone)game, ya have problems?
Exactly! WoW has poisoned the market. Until someone gets the courage to make a new type of game. This Darkfall I've been reading about might do the trick, if it succeeds. If it becomes a haven for mean gank squads, people might not love it, and then the low sub numbers will turn off potential developers. What we NEED is a game with a new style. And not just new graphics or theme. We need a game like Darkfall, not because I have any love for that game, per se, but because it has progression concept different from any MMO I have heard of. And don't say Eve is like it. It is not. Eve is a real time progression of skills you choose. Darkfall has a system where what you do increases your skill in that thing, much like the Elderscrolls games. No, this isn't a new concept, but I haven't seen it in any MMO that had a chance of doing well. But yes, all current games suck. To the last one.
EvE does have progression even if an aspect is stuck in "realtime". Just admit you ONLY want an MMO exactly how you want it or it doesn't count. The samething will probably happen to you after you get your hands on darkfall as well. While your views on EvE alone doesn't say that since that progression is a large part of most games, but saying all games suck certainly does. That said I never once said darkfall is going to suck. I actually think it looks very interesting for a few reasons. And the forumcry that will happen after people see what's really there will be a nice cherry on top.
I was less talking to you, and more to talismen. But, since you want to argue.
I never said Eve did not have progression. I said that it had very different progression from Darkfall, and I did not way Eve fans yelling at me, saying something to the effect of "Eve has only skills and no levels too!" They are a vicious bunch, you see.
I don't want a game to be exactly the way I want, in fact, I enjoy a great deal of single player and some multiplayer games. But no MMOs.
I expect a game to be both well conceived and polished. I expect a game to be different from the 20 games that came before it. There were some games I enjoyed before WoW, and I enjoyed WoW for a shot (very short) period of time. But there is no game like that is current now that I enjoy.
Now, please do not yell at others in anger or condescension. I don't appreciate it.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Compare: EvE, WurmOnline, A tale in the desert, and toss in Secondlife for kicks. All very different and all very sandbox like.
Compare: Guildwars, Everquest 2, and Linage. All very much so AAA titles and different.
Compare: WAR, Everquest, and AoC. All "world of everclone" as far as most are concerned. But still pretty different considering you can confuse the guide of one for the other.
Compare: Secondlife, IMVU, and There. All chat programs but very different, none a true MMORPG but still MMO even if it's MMOChatProgram.
Compare: Runescape, Runes of Magic, and FlyFF. All F2P and all different. (edit)
Now lets stretch out a bit into MMOs that this site wouldn't consider an MMO
Compare: neveron, ImperialConfilct, AstroEmpires, and planeterian.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Or atleast make it as decent as WoW, most of the games coming out are way under the par that WoW has set.
Wow is the biggest part of the problem now a days. How about going in a different direction and listening "with in reason" to the people who pay them. Now that would be EPIC!
You can throw a dart at all the adjectives between "easy", "grind" and "linear" and hit one that describes WoW. But it's absurd to blame WoW for other companies releasing clones of their game. Blizzard tried to create a game to appeal to the masses and they succeeded in a huge way. It's not their fault that other companies tried to cash in on their success and failed, badly.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
If you can't find a game you like... You have issues.
This website alone has over a hundred, if you broaden your horizons a bit more it comes to a few thousand playable games.
So you are saying if ya don't wanna play WoW or a WoW clone, or an ugly, boring, old, outdated (basically a WoW clone)game, ya have problems?
you haven't looked. I'm willing to vote with my wallet and play what you call the ugly, old, and outdated(even though it's not nearly that bad). If you can't I guess you can't play the MMOs you want and you have an enconomical vote no one cares about. You've already defeated yourself go enjoy well nothing MMOish.
Oh I have looked...see that list of released games...I have tried n pretty much have every one of them sitting on my shelf. I have also been given the opportunity to be part of a couple of the betas for 'games in development' section.
What do I find in many? Some are very good...but lack a decent community, by that I mean low population. Others that were once good, went the way of trying to be more WoWish. And some I will be honest just didn't interest me...but I gave them all a shot.
You are right...I can't play the MMOs I want...because they are all too WoWish for my liking. I would like to see an MMO with crafting that matters, and the combat is more than just how good your equipment is. Where housing is part of the game world, n not everything is instanced. Where I can become part of the world n have an effect...not just a passerbyer. Where I can explore n enjoy a world...not just hafta get to the next level so I can goto a new area. Something along the lines of early SWG or UO pre AoS. The MMO I want to play doesn't exist yet...or once did exist, but has since been WoWified.
The chicken or the egg. When refering to community size. If you quit because nobody was around the next person will do the same because everyone else made that same choice. You need to understand that a large community is not counted in the 10s of thousands it counted in the hundreds that you actually interact with.
I have had problems finding crafting games as well. I've played Wurmonline for 2.5 years just because it has a world that is still a game where crafting actually changes it. I've had a short stinct on EvE but didn't really like it because the idividual player didn't affect the world enough. I've had another very very short stinct on Ryzom which had insanely worthy crafting, however it didn't have other mechanics that just jump out. Right now I've been messing around in Secondlife and working on some projects (mostly small group) and working as a reserve scripter for a RP SIM. That said playing with SL's creation system I've been playing with web based MMOs, particullarly empire building just for kicks. And tossing in some guildwars or others. I'm kinda looking forward to TCOS when it really gets released, sure it doesn't have a good crafting system in the sense that the player does it themselves, they do have the other core mechanics down pretty well even if recipe based.
I would really really recomend Wurmonline. While you need to put up with a bit of indiness there aren't many worlds better suited for a crafter. Even if you've already given it a chance and tossed it aside for a reason I'd encourage you to relook at those reasons if they're worth enough to toss aside one of the better game worlds for pure crafters. The combat is nothing to brag about though, but it's not something that nearly all the community focuses on and isn't your "core" play time at all.
You need to think "there are no perfect diamonds" over and over to yourself when looking for a MMO. If you do you'll never find anything you already know that though so you don't need to trust me on that fact. I mean even a F2P game like Mabinogi might surprise you if you were to try that (trust me it just might), and it's not really meant to be F2P.
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EvE was NOT a AAA developement title on release, but it is worthy of the title AAA title in it's current state. Don't know who asked that though.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
The problem is not that there are no perfect diamonds. The problem lies in investment capital and finding it. As it was said before, WoW has unofficially set the new-age MMO standard. Blizzard has put forth the numbers that every other publisher wants to see, and every invester wants a piece of.
There are a lot of developers that would love to put crazy indie-awesome-tastic-sand-box-bad-mamajama ideas into place, but the problem is finding someone to pay for it. There are enough ideas out there to have ever niche get their game. But sadly, the people who pay for it are greedy and don't want to settle for a game that will only do a small return, with 12,000 players. 250,000 is supposed to be the "stable state" of a successful MMO, which in my opinion is bull. But you have to pay for the game somehow, and supposedly thats the operation costs.
The everquest model is tried and true, and if changed slightly here and there it still produces revenue. This is a safe investment, betting on something that hasn't been tried before, and may not even have a following, is not a good idea. Look at Darkfall, it was vaporware for years, and it isn't even that bad of an idea. But people people with money couldn't get over the fact that some people might not like the game, and its really hard, and THERES SO MUCH TO DO, oh my lord...what if people get overwhelmed? What if only the hardcore players play it?!!? What will we do for money?
agreed. i am totaly done with eq type games. wow has 11 million subs. this is proof that the industry is now big enough to support many different kinds of games as people are always looking for an alternative. WE DONT WANT MORE WOW
If you can't find a game you like... You have issues.
This website alone has over a hundred, if you broaden your horizons a bit more it comes to a few thousand playable games.
Agreed. Some people are just ignorant. Yet, I do agree with some of his points on how alot of games copy WoW. Im tired of WoW after playing for 3 years, but fresh players Im sure love it.
I do not think it is fair to say that all games currently suck.
But I do think we are all just really tired of World of Warcraft. For some reason people love to say they hate something even after they enjoyed playing it for 4 years(like the end of some relationship). It is like World of Warcraft has broken your heart rofl.
It is becoming a problem that new games are having features that resemble World of Warcraft way too much. And WoW might not be the origin of alot of these ideas, but it is the place that we, and millions of other people, already experienced them.
Most of us do not hate WoW, we had a great run, but even with the amazing new expansion the game is still WoW. Companies need to just realize that if we wanted to play a game with similarities to WoW, we could easily just play WoW again.
It has killed so many new games for me, Warhammer, Age of Conan, and other free to play games.
Hi, Any MMO that I've seen discussed on these forums in the last 4 years or so are basically rehashed versions of Everquest. There is a growing sub community of players who have simply grown totally exhausted from this level grind model. This thread is for everyone who feels like I do. EQ and UO were great games but one can only play that theam of game in easy mode for so long before it gets to be exhausting. Gone are the days of the sandbox where you got a message (if that) that said "Welcome to UO" with no more tasks described. Gone are the days of discovery and random wandering, trial and error and puzzle solving. .....I no longer subscribe to MMOs: The leveling, the fedex style content, the feeling of disappointment that comes with each successive MMO, the cookie cutter feel that every mmo has, the lack of the R and the P and G has lead to this thread. For the life of me I can't understand why a 20million dollar game engine has to wrap itself around such poorly written content.
I will agree that the mmo's ive tried in the past few years have been pretty bland. That being said, I am not sure what you expect developers to do. Take any two people on this thread that agree with you, and their opinions on what would make a good MMO will differ radically. We are already a minority of the MMO population that agree that current MMOs suck, and then we are further subdivided by our opinions on what would not suck.
So if I'm a developer, I'm looking to make a game that will apeal to the most people. Well, WoW and WAR have the most subs by far and away, so I should make a game like that. The developer would have a very hard time making a business case otherwise. It would sound pretty stupid:
"There are 5 people on mmorpg.com that want to see EQ1 brought back with better graphics."
"There are 8 people on mmorpg.com that want to see the original SWG brought back."
"2 people want an 'R' rated mmo, 10 want extreme death penalties, 50% want pvp focus, 50% want pve focus, 1 guy wants a game about rabbits, 2 guys want a game about zombies with diarrhea (but one of them wants it to be cartoony and the other to be realistic graphics), etc...etc...etc...
you'll never get agreement out of us
------------------------------ "Everything is awesome. Fundamentally."
Originally posted by Proserpine Well, WoW and WAR have the most subs by far and away, so I should make a game like that. The developer would have a very hard time making a business case otherwise. It would sound pretty stupid: "There are 5 people on mmorpg.com that want to see EQ1 brought back with better graphics." "There are 8 people on mmorpg.com that want to see the original SWG brought back." "2 people want an 'R' rated mmo, 10 want extreme death penalties, 50% want pvp focus, 50% want pve focus, 1 guy wants a game about rabbits, 2 guys want a game about zombies with diarrhea (but one of them wants it to be cartoony and the other to be realistic graphics), etc...etc...etc... you'll never get agreement out of us
BINGO!
Glad someone figured it out. You will never win an arguement online and even if you think you won, you didn't because it is online (...NERDS).
To Crybabies: Uhm...if a game pisses you off, don't play it - duh. To Crybabies - Part 2: If you want a game to suit all your needs, start off by going to college to become a Game Designer. Emo User Award: busdriver, for his love of Britney Spears - The Prize - Winning Posts
This thread seems like a rant against success. WoW is a very successful game by any reasonable standard. The fact that a minority of vocal MMO players don't like it, isn't going to change anything. If you really can’t find an MMO you like then you either have to a) stop playing MMOs and wait for one you like or b) start writing you own MMO. What’s the point of complain about successful games that other people like?
The current state of this genre is sad. I have a feeling it is only going to get worse and this is the reason I have given up on MMORPG's all together. I currently play Mount and Blade and though it is a single player game and limited - there is more game play value in it then all the MMORPG's I have ever played put together.
What we see coming down the road is more rehashed versions of games all ready on the market. Nothing innovative or creative and I seriously doubt we'll ever see another sandbox game. The current genre is stale. We're still mashing hotkeys, have classes and levels. Bring us FPS style combat, make the games skill based and leveless!
The system used in M&B is proof positive that FPS style combat would work and the skill based system used in the game makes it possible to have hundreds of unique PC's. It is to bad someone in the game industry doesn't see what M&B has brought to the table and incorperate it into an MMORPG.
I take it back...Mortal Online looks promising...but I will not hold my breath. For now though I'll just keep playing games like M&B and BF2 - MMORPG's are dead to me.
This thread seems like a rant against success. WoW is a very successful game by any reasonable standard. The fact that a minority of vocal MMO players don't like it, isn't going to change anything. If you really can’t find an MMO you like then you either have to a) stop playing MMOs and wait for one you like or b) start writing you own MMO. What’s the point of complain about successful games that other people like?
i'm not trying to change anything. i'm simply stating my opinion that all games suck.
The reason I'm able to much such a general statement that covers all mmorpg games is because they all suck.
i'm very happy for those that are paying a monthly subscription to play their favorite mmorpg. I, however, am left with the impression that the monthly sub is a complete and total scam. Weigh the pay to play paradigm against the complete and utter stagnation of this industry in the last 4 years and, if you're like me, you may see it for the scam it is.
i think some you think i'm here trying to sway you from your World of Warcraft. Unlike some people who totally despise this game I'm able to see that I am indeed in the minority. That doesn't change the fact that you used to get something unique with a montly subscription cost. Now the entire system is a complete scam designed systematically as gear quest online.
The "solution" has already been implemented: I no longer play these games. This doesn't stop me from talking about why I no longer play them and it doesnt stop people from trying to talk down from their mighty pedistals of all knowing. thats the great thing about message boards when used properly....they can be used to discuss people's opinons on subjects even if they aren't like your own.
I hate the look of WoW so much... and also all of those cartony games....
Yes, we get the point, you think WoW looks like a cartoon, You sound likea broken record. How many times in the same thread must you point out your view? Until someone makes a reply to you I suspect, so you can troll it back.
Hi, EQ and UO were great games but one can only play that theam of game in easy mode for so long before it gets to be exhausting. Gone are the days of the sandbox where you got a message (if that) that said "Welcome to UO" with no more tasks described. Gone are the days of discovery and random wandering, trial and error and puzzle solving
It's called nostalgia and it's a very dangerous thing.
The thing that you're describing is Nostalgia and it happens with a lot of people who played the old MMORPG .There is no MMORPG like your first MMORPG because settling foot in an online virtual world for the very first time is a thrilling experience. You don't really know what to expect and there is a certain rush knowing that nearly everybody you meet are real people playing. As soon as you play more mmorpg's, this new feeling starts to wear off and you'll start to look at MMO's differently.
A person who has played multiple MMORPG's and a person who is new to the genre approach a game in very different wasys. An experienced player will wonder "Ok, How do I level the fastest, when do I need to group and when will I get my first new skill?" a new player doesn't really know what to expect from the game and thus the possibilities seem endless.
A game may seem "wide open" but that's simply because you didn't know or never realised where the bounds are.
The fan lost in nostalgia will call it "Trial and Error" but the realist will point out that it's simply a result of bad game design which leads to an inaccessible experience.
You look back at your favorite games and say "That game was not quest driven and it was full of discovery and random wandering". These type of games are still around, except nowadays you call them "Grindfests with no content".
Truth is, World of Warcraft relaunched the genre. Games like Ultima Online kept the MMORPG popularity from reaching its full potential. Ultima Online wasn't the first MMORPG but it was certainly the first "Big name" MMORPG and look at it, it maxed out at around 200k subscribers. The Korean equivalent of Ultima Online would be Lineage, except that Lineage was more accessible . And look at it, Lineage had millions of subscribers and the MMORPG genre in Korea just exploded, which didn't happen with UO. Everquest did a lot better, and WoW is just enormous. Why is WoW so enormous? Because it didn't make the same mistakes old MMORPG's made, in fact, WoW's designers were Everquest players. But if you keep blinding yourself with nostalgia, you'll never see where UO and EQ went wrong.
Will there be more innovation? Over time, yes I think innovation will happen, just not yet. With the introduction of WoW,, MMORPG"s have finally reached a big enough audience to help it lift ouf of the "niche genre" it used to be.There are lots of new players and they need to be introduced to the genre properly before they move on to the next step, and that takes time.
Hi, EQ and UO were great games but one can only play that theam of game in easy mode for so long before it gets to be exhausting. Gone are the days of the sandbox where you got a message (if that) that said "Welcome to UO" with no more tasks described. Gone are the days of discovery and random wandering, trial and error and puzzle solving
It's called nostalgia and it's a very dangerous thing.
The thing is that you're describing is Nostalgia and it happens with a lot of people who played the old MMORPG is.There is no MMORPG like your first MMORPG because settling foot inin an online virtual world for the very first time is a thrilling experience. You don't really know what to expect and there is a certain rush knowing that nearly everybody you meet are real people playing. As soon as you play more mmorpg's, this new feeling starts to wear off and you'll start to look at MMO's differently.
A person who has played multiple MMORPG's and a person who is new to the genre approach a game in very different wasys. An experienced player will wonder "Ok, How do I level the fastest, when do I need to group and when will I get my first new skill?" a new player doesn't really know what to expect from the game and thus the possibilities seem endless.
A game may seem "wide open" but that's simply because you didn't know or never realised where the bounds are.
The fan lost in nostalgia will call it "Trial and Error" but the realist will point out that it's simply a result of bad game design which leads to an inaccessible experience.
You look back at your favorite game and say "That game were not quest driven and was full of discovery and random wandering". These type of games are still around, except nowadays you call them "Grindfests with no content".
Truth is, World of Warcraft relaunched the genre. Games like Ultima Online kept the MMORPG popularity from reaching its full potential. Ultima Online wasn't the first MMORPG but it was certainly the first "Big name" MMORPG and look at it, it maxed out at around 200k subscribers. The Korean equivalent of Ultima Online would be Lineage, except that Lineage was more accessible . And look at it, Lineage had millions of subscribers and the MMORPG genre in Korea just exploded, which didn't happen with UO. Everquest did a lot better, and WoW is just enormous. Why is WoW so enormous? Because it didn't make the same mistakes old MMORPG's made, in fact, MMORPG's designers were Everquest players. But if you keep blinding yourself with nostalgia, you'll never see where UO and EQ went wrong.
While I understand liking or disliking a MMO is all a matter of a players tastes.
I happen to think Eve, Ryzom,CoH and even LotRO are really good games.
While we have had some stinkers like Vanguard, TR and AoC they aren't all bad.
Now you say you don't like all the WoW clones? well first of all they aren't WoW clones (except for WAR)
all these games are taking something away from UO, EQ and AC mostly.
You say you dont like the boring fedex quests? well thats what an MMO is if it has quests.
Maybe you just don't like the MMO genre as a whole?
What do you want out of a MMO? different types of combat options? like TCoS? well I just tried that mmo/fps hybrid and the combat is boring and unresponsive as shit.
You want FFA pvp? well I've been playing Eve and no game has Harsher pvp yet you don't like Eve.
You want different quests? well LotRO and EQ2 have a ton of quests all types and you don't like those and even go as far as saying they are WoW clones which they clearly aren't.
Personally I just think you need to leave the MMO genre because it will never turn out to be the way you want it. MMOs will always have fetch quests, simple combat, Either skill or talent trees and either a static pvp endgame or a pve item grind. ASking for different is like asking Devs of a car racing game to omit the roads or take all the wheels off the cars. It doesn't work.
You don't like MMOs anymore thats ok, its only a game. hell I out grew fighting games like Street fighter and Mortal kombat you dont see me on a fighting game board wanting them to omit combos.
MMOs suck is an opinion and I've already stated that the modern day mmo is garbage compared to what it could be, a feeling that places me in the minority.
If you want to get technical they are all EQ clones. WoW clones is a better term because its modern and everyone knows what you're talking about.
My definition of a wow clone:
A game with quests.
A game with task after task as if I need to be led by my nose from zone to zone to zone.
Hierarchical zone content in the sense that you do one zone , get the levels and move on to the next zone. Was Deceit actually "harder" than Shame ? (Well the lich lord room for sure but you get my point).
A game where gear is meaningless. There is too much emphasis on loot and less on writing a good story behind the acquisition of each and every item. When I played D&D I could tell you a story about each item I obtained. Magic items are suposed to be rare - not dropping off a rat in the woods.
Leveling / Endgame progression......MMOS aren't suposed to have an end game.
I am indeed not a mmorpg gamer because people dont want RPG games online anymore. They WANT to run on a treadmill like a hamster and collect the next piece of trivial gear so they can move on to the next piece of trivial gear.
Its sad really, that people have such low expectations from their games. What me and many others are looking for is not a complex change really.
I wish people would stop telling me how to think. MMOs suck is an opinion and I've already stated that the modern day mmo is garbage compared to what it could be, a feeling that places me in the minority. If you want to get technical they are all EQ clones. WoW clones is a better term because its modern and everyone knows what you're talking about.
My definition of a wow clone: A game with quests. A game with task after task as if I need to be led by my nose from zone to zone to zone. Hierarchical zone content in the sense that you do one zone , get the levels and move on to the next zone. Was Deceit actually "harder" than Shame ? (Well the lich lord room for sure but you get my point). A game where gear is meaningless. There is too much emphasis on loot and less on writing a good story behind the acquisition of each and every item. When I played D&D I could tell you a story about each item I obtained. Magic items are suposed to be rare - not dropping off a rat in the woods. Leveling / Endgame progression......MMOS aren't suposed to have an end game.
I am indeed not a mmorpg gamer because people dont want RPG games online anymore. They WANT to run on a treadmill like a hamster and collect the next piece of trivial gear so they can move on to the next piece of trivial gear. Its sad really, that people have such low expectations from their games. What me and many others are looking for is not a complex change really.
And You're not telling everyone else how to think? At least to the same strength that we're tell you to. Only you're worse because you know that by spewing about a bit of poison you can get the "weaker" to think twice about their MMOs, because the same thing just might have happened to you.
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You mean people actually play MMOs like that? Because I certaily haven't played many that were like that because I know that I don't want to.
I guess if you're calling every MMO on the list to the left a WoW clone(no wait all MMOs) based on that criteria it really just proves you haven't gotten around as much as you claimed to have.
Lets see: all browser MMOs(empire building, character building, hybrid), Mabinogi(F2P), Runescape(another F2P but hybrid ish), EvE, Ryzom, WurmOnline, and A Tale in the Desert. I mean come on these are just games no one will argue with You could easily start including things like Guildwars, the pirates/ship games from last year, and quite a few others.
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Actually it is a complex change because it's already all around you and you don't see it. Developers can't change the player after all.
You have no economic vote in the MMORPG genere because you don't play MMOs, you only play flaws then spew forum rhetoric about them a month later.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I wish people would stop telling me how to think. MMOs suck is an opinion and I've already stated that the modern day mmo is garbage compared to what it could be, a feeling that places me in the minority. If you want to get technical they are all EQ clones. WoW clones is a better term because its modern and everyone knows what you're talking about.
My definition of a wow clone: A game with quests. A game with task after task as if I need to be led by my nose from zone to zone to zone. Hierarchical zone content in the sense that you do one zone , get the levels and move on to the next zone. Was Deceit actually "harder" than Shame ? (Well the lich lord room for sure but you get my point). A game where gear is meaningless. There is too much emphasis on loot and less on writing a good story behind the acquisition of each and every item. When I played D&D I could tell you a story about each item I obtained. Magic items are suposed to be rare - not dropping off a rat in the woods. Leveling / Endgame progression......MMOS aren't suposed to have an end game.
I am indeed not a mmorpg gamer because people dont want RPG games online anymore. They WANT to run on a treadmill like a hamster and collect the next piece of trivial gear so they can move on to the next piece of trivial gear. Its sad really, that people have such low expectations from their games. What me and many others are looking for is not a complex change really.
The funny thing is that the MMORPG's you mentioned are just as character progressive as todays modern MMO's are.
Paulscott, cant talk with ya bud you just want to look down and say im wrong. You are combative and argumentative and look for every chance you can for subtle attacks on my intelligence. Surely I must be "wrong" because we don't agree.
Gameloading i dont buy the nostaliga arguement one little bit.
There is nothing nostaligic about wanting to move from task driven games that have beautiful landscapes and completely stagnatated game play. Its not a lack of technical ability or some desentization on my part that drives shitty games.
Why do mobs need to stand around and wait to be killed?
Why do we have to have crappy quest hubs with crappy quests to get crappy gear?
I'm not new to this genre. I've seen era's come and go and today's lack of innovation on the developer's part is not my problem (quite literally since I'm not playing).
All games suck because they are basically rehashed versions of the same game.
Let me say it again: All games that have task driven quests, level based hierarchial based content systems are clones of one another. Its like having different versions of a word processor or cans of Cola Soda. THey may have slightly different flavors but they all fizz.
An open ended world like UO or early era Eq is what some of us are looking for.
Comments
Admitably MMOs follow much30 more of a mold than you'd see in in other genres, Especially when comparing awesome games like CIV IV to other turn based games or even games that people who are sure to buy CIV IV would buy.
I think the biggest problem is that large developers think people only want D&D based stuff, which is pretty stupid for a few reasons. The most notable is that there isn't a lot of room for evolution there, and that all the math was orginally written off old equations commanders would use to calculate losses in medieval massive group combat. And there's no reason at all to target that audience anymore in your games just because most wouldn't know the differance between 2D6 and D20.
I mean you could seriously consider a AAA western RPG(not MMO just RPG) basing it's core mechanics on GURPS(still very similar) a massive leep, I mean even fallout got compliemented on having a quirks mechanic and a few others(when they just based their core mechanics on GURPS instead of D&D).
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All in all I think the thread "all current games suck" is kinda a lame title. While AAA titles certainly do have quite a bit of basis on one another and similar enough mechanics that you can mistake their skill guides for different games. It's not the same elsewhere in the MMO industry, and I'd be willing to include stuff a part of this industry that this site wouldn't as well (web based MMOs, and often times having more RPG to them than others).
Also you weren't expecting any arguement at all. You were expecting everyone to agree with you. While if you play are AAA releases they'd have no reason to disagree at all, but for others we have lots of reasons to.
30: to the power of 30 you shouldn't be looking here. stop. You're reading it wrong
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
All games suck is a pretty lame title you are correct. Had I actually found a reason to use a bit more tact I may have but i'm not playing any mmorpg game right now and have more time then I normally would.
Actually, I was full well expecting one or more people to stand up and tell me what I was thinking though. Its pretty easy to typecast someone when they make a bold statement as such. Tell ya what, i wont walk into Walmart and generally tell everyone they suck for shopping there if you don't try and tell me that I should go play a AAA game.
If I do see the light of these AAA titles should that be the cash shop EQ / EQ 2 games or should I play Vanguard of Wasteland? What if I want my WoW character to feel just a little bit unique? Do you have a spec to reccommend? Do you classify Eve as AAA or should I stick with LOTR or maybe try out WAR? Out of the instanced games should I go for Guildwars or AOC?
Lets put all of the features of these games into a table and match up the common factors. You may consider skill mechanics from one game being mistaken in another but button mashing for stats is button mashing for stats.
The first part of your post is interesting but I think for the second part you need to come of f your high horse a bit. I'm here to discuss with people not argue.
So you are saying if ya don't wanna play WoW or a WoW clone, or an ugly, boring, old, outdated (basically a WoW clone)game, ya have problems?
Exactly! WoW has poisoned the market. Until someone gets the courage to make a new type of game.
This Darkfall I've been reading about might do the trick, if it succeeds. If it becomes a haven for mean gank squads, people might not love it, and then the low sub numbers will turn off potential developers.
What we NEED is a game with a new style. And not just new graphics or theme. We need a game like Darkfall, not because I have any love for that game, per se, but because it has progression concept different from any MMO I have heard of.
And don't say Eve is like it. It is not. Eve is a real time progression of skills you choose. Darkfall has a system where what you do increases your skill in that thing, much like the Elderscrolls games. No, this isn't a new concept, but I haven't seen it in any MMO that had a chance of doing well.
But yes, all current games suck. To the last one.
EvE does have progression even if an aspect is stuck in "realtime".
Just admit you ONLY want an MMO exactly how you want it or it doesn't count. The samething will probably happen to you after you get your hands on darkfall as well. While your views on EvE alone doesn't say that since that progression is a large part of most games, but saying all games suck certainly does.
That said I never once said darkfall is going to suck. I actually think it looks very interesting for a few reasons. And the forumcry that will happen after people see what's really there will be a nice cherry on top.
I was less talking to you, and more to talismen. But, since you want to argue.
I never said Eve did not have progression. I said that it had very different progression from Darkfall, and I did not way Eve fans yelling at me, saying something to the effect of "Eve has only skills and no levels too!" They are a vicious bunch, you see.
I don't want a game to be exactly the way I want, in fact, I enjoy a great deal of single player and some multiplayer games. But no MMOs.
I expect a game to be both well conceived and polished. I expect a game to be different from the 20 games that came before it. There were some games I enjoyed before WoW, and I enjoyed WoW for a shot (very short) period of time. But there is no game like that is current now that I enjoy.
Now, please do not yell at others in anger or condescension. I don't appreciate it.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Compare: EvE, WurmOnline, A tale in the desert, and toss in Secondlife for kicks. All very different and all very sandbox like.
Compare: Guildwars, Everquest 2, and Linage. All very much so AAA titles and different.
Compare: WAR, Everquest, and AoC. All "world of everclone" as far as most are concerned. But still pretty different considering you can confuse the guide of one for the other.
Compare: Secondlife, IMVU, and There. All chat programs but very different, none a true MMORPG but still MMO even if it's MMOChatProgram.
Compare: Runescape, Runes of Magic, and FlyFF. All F2P and all different. (edit)
Now lets stretch out a bit into MMOs that this site wouldn't consider an MMO
Compare: neveron, ImperialConfilct, AstroEmpires, and planeterian.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Or atleast make it as decent as WoW, most of the games coming out are way under the par that WoW has set.
Wow is the biggest part of the problem now a days. How about going in a different direction and listening "with in reason" to the people who pay them. Now that would be EPIC!
You can throw a dart at all the adjectives between "easy", "grind" and "linear" and hit one that describes WoW. But it's absurd to blame WoW for other companies releasing clones of their game. Blizzard tried to create a game to appeal to the masses and they succeeded in a huge way. It's not their fault that other companies tried to cash in on their success and failed, badly.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
So you are saying if ya don't wanna play WoW or a WoW clone, or an ugly, boring, old, outdated (basically a WoW clone)game, ya have problems?
you haven't looked. I'm willing to vote with my wallet and play what you call the ugly, old, and outdated(even though it's not nearly that bad). If you can't I guess you can't play the MMOs you want and you have an enconomical vote no one cares about. You've already defeated yourself go enjoy well nothing MMOish.
compliments of: secretvespers.com/
Oh I have looked...see that list of released games...I have tried n pretty much have every one of them sitting on my shelf. I have also been given the opportunity to be part of a couple of the betas for 'games in development' section.
What do I find in many? Some are very good...but lack a decent community, by that I mean low population. Others that were once good, went the way of trying to be more WoWish. And some I will be honest just didn't interest me...but I gave them all a shot.
You are right...I can't play the MMOs I want...because they are all too WoWish for my liking. I would like to see an MMO with crafting that matters, and the combat is more than just how good your equipment is. Where housing is part of the game world, n not everything is instanced. Where I can become part of the world n have an effect...not just a passerbyer. Where I can explore n enjoy a world...not just hafta get to the next level so I can goto a new area. Something along the lines of early SWG or UO pre AoS. The MMO I want to play doesn't exist yet...or once did exist, but has since been WoWified.
I agree with the OP.I've auctally started playing my sons 360 ,and i'm enjoying it more than anything out right now.
Emmanuel Egelid <GECKO>
www.geckoguild.com
The chicken or the egg. When refering to community size. If you quit because nobody was around the next person will do the same because everyone else made that same choice. You need to understand that a large community is not counted in the 10s of thousands it counted in the hundreds that you actually interact with.
I have had problems finding crafting games as well. I've played Wurmonline for 2.5 years just because it has a world that is still a game where crafting actually changes it. I've had a short stinct on EvE but didn't really like it because the idividual player didn't affect the world enough. I've had another very very short stinct on Ryzom which had insanely worthy crafting, however it didn't have other mechanics that just jump out. Right now I've been messing around in Secondlife and working on some projects (mostly small group) and working as a reserve scripter for a RP SIM. That said playing with SL's creation system I've been playing with web based MMOs, particullarly empire building just for kicks. And tossing in some guildwars or others. I'm kinda looking forward to TCOS when it really gets released, sure it doesn't have a good crafting system in the sense that the player does it themselves, they do have the other core mechanics down pretty well even if recipe based.
I would really really recomend Wurmonline. While you need to put up with a bit of indiness there aren't many worlds better suited for a crafter. Even if you've already given it a chance and tossed it aside for a reason I'd encourage you to relook at those reasons if they're worth enough to toss aside one of the better game worlds for pure crafters. The combat is nothing to brag about though, but it's not something that nearly all the community focuses on and isn't your "core" play time at all.
You need to think "there are no perfect diamonds" over and over to yourself when looking for a MMO. If you do you'll never find anything you already know that though so you don't need to trust me on that fact. I mean even a F2P game like Mabinogi might surprise you if you were to try that (trust me it just might), and it's not really meant to be F2P.
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EvE was NOT a AAA developement title on release, but it is worthy of the title AAA title in it's current state. Don't know who asked that though.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
The problem is not that there are no perfect diamonds. The problem lies in investment capital and finding it. As it was said before, WoW has unofficially set the new-age MMO standard. Blizzard has put forth the numbers that every other publisher wants to see, and every invester wants a piece of.
There are a lot of developers that would love to put crazy indie-awesome-tastic-sand-box-bad-mamajama ideas into place, but the problem is finding someone to pay for it. There are enough ideas out there to have ever niche get their game. But sadly, the people who pay for it are greedy and don't want to settle for a game that will only do a small return, with 12,000 players. 250,000 is supposed to be the "stable state" of a successful MMO, which in my opinion is bull. But you have to pay for the game somehow, and supposedly thats the operation costs.
The everquest model is tried and true, and if changed slightly here and there it still produces revenue. This is a safe investment, betting on something that hasn't been tried before, and may not even have a following, is not a good idea. Look at Darkfall, it was vaporware for years, and it isn't even that bad of an idea. But people people with money couldn't get over the fact that some people might not like the game, and its really hard, and THERES SO MUCH TO DO, oh my lord...what if people get overwhelmed? What if only the hardcore players play it?!!? What will we do for money?
The industry, in its current model, is fuxed.
That or 11 million people only want to play wow
Agreed. Some people are just ignorant. Yet, I do agree with some of his points on how alot of games copy WoW. Im tired of WoW after playing for 3 years, but fresh players Im sure love it.
I do not think it is fair to say that all games currently suck.
But I do think we are all just really tired of World of Warcraft. For some reason people love to say they hate something even after they enjoyed playing it for 4 years(like the end of some relationship). It is like World of Warcraft has broken your heart rofl.
It is becoming a problem that new games are having features that resemble World of Warcraft way too much. And WoW might not be the origin of alot of these ideas, but it is the place that we, and millions of other people, already experienced them.
Most of us do not hate WoW, we had a great run, but even with the amazing new expansion the game is still WoW. Companies need to just realize that if we wanted to play a game with similarities to WoW, we could easily just play WoW again.
It has killed so many new games for me, Warhammer, Age of Conan, and other free to play games.
I will agree that the mmo's ive tried in the past few years have been pretty bland. That being said, I am not sure what you expect developers to do. Take any two people on this thread that agree with you, and their opinions on what would make a good MMO will differ radically. We are already a minority of the MMO population that agree that current MMOs suck, and then we are further subdivided by our opinions on what would not suck.
So if I'm a developer, I'm looking to make a game that will apeal to the most people. Well, WoW and WAR have the most subs by far and away, so I should make a game like that. The developer would have a very hard time making a business case otherwise. It would sound pretty stupid:
"There are 5 people on mmorpg.com that want to see EQ1 brought back with better graphics."
"There are 8 people on mmorpg.com that want to see the original SWG brought back."
"2 people want an 'R' rated mmo, 10 want extreme death penalties, 50% want pvp focus, 50% want pve focus, 1 guy wants a game about rabbits, 2 guys want a game about zombies with diarrhea (but one of them wants it to be cartoony and the other to be realistic graphics), etc...etc...etc...
you'll never get agreement out of us
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"Everything is awesome. Fundamentally."
BINGO!
Glad someone figured it out. You will never win an arguement online and even if you think you won, you didn't because it is online (...NERDS).
To Crybabies: Uhm...if a game pisses you off, don't play it - duh.
To Crybabies - Part 2: If you want a game to suit all your needs, start off by going to college to become a Game Designer.
Emo User Award: busdriver, for his love of Britney Spears - The Prize - Winning Posts
This thread seems like a rant against success. WoW is a very successful game by any reasonable standard. The fact that a minority of vocal MMO players don't like it, isn't going to change anything. If you really can’t find an MMO you like then you either have to a) stop playing MMOs and wait for one you like or b) start writing you own MMO. What’s the point of complain about successful games that other people like?
The current state of this genre is sad. I have a feeling it is only going to get worse and this is the reason I have given up on MMORPG's all together. I currently play Mount and Blade and though it is a single player game and limited - there is more game play value in it then all the MMORPG's I have ever played put together.
What we see coming down the road is more rehashed versions of games all ready on the market. Nothing innovative or creative and I seriously doubt we'll ever see another sandbox game. The current genre is stale. We're still mashing hotkeys, have classes and levels. Bring us FPS style combat, make the games skill based and leveless!
The system used in M&B is proof positive that FPS style combat would work and the skill based system used in the game makes it possible to have hundreds of unique PC's. It is to bad someone in the game industry doesn't see what M&B has brought to the table and incorperate it into an MMORPG.
I take it back...Mortal Online looks promising...but I will not hold my breath. For now though I'll just keep playing games like M&B and BF2 - MMORPG's are dead to me.
i'm not trying to change anything. i'm simply stating my opinion that all games suck.
The reason I'm able to much such a general statement that covers all mmorpg games is because they all suck.
i'm very happy for those that are paying a monthly subscription to play their favorite mmorpg. I, however, am left with the impression that the monthly sub is a complete and total scam. Weigh the pay to play paradigm against the complete and utter stagnation of this industry in the last 4 years and, if you're like me, you may see it for the scam it is.
i think some you think i'm here trying to sway you from your World of Warcraft. Unlike some people who totally despise this game I'm able to see that I am indeed in the minority. That doesn't change the fact that you used to get something unique with a montly subscription cost. Now the entire system is a complete scam designed systematically as gear quest online.
The "solution" has already been implemented: I no longer play these games. This doesn't stop me from talking about why I no longer play them and it doesnt stop people from trying to talk down from their mighty pedistals of all knowing. thats the great thing about message boards when used properly....they can be used to discuss people's opinons on subjects even if they aren't like your own.
Yes, we get the point, you think WoW looks like a cartoon, You sound likea broken record. How many times in the same thread must you point out your view? Until someone makes a reply to you I suspect, so you can troll it back.
It's called nostalgia and it's a very dangerous thing.
The thing that you're describing is Nostalgia and it happens with a lot of people who played the old MMORPG .There is no MMORPG like your first MMORPG because settling foot in an online virtual world for the very first time is a thrilling experience. You don't really know what to expect and there is a certain rush knowing that nearly everybody you meet are real people playing. As soon as you play more mmorpg's, this new feeling starts to wear off and you'll start to look at MMO's differently.
A person who has played multiple MMORPG's and a person who is new to the genre approach a game in very different wasys. An experienced player will wonder "Ok, How do I level the fastest, when do I need to group and when will I get my first new skill?" a new player doesn't really know what to expect from the game and thus the possibilities seem endless.
A game may seem "wide open" but that's simply because you didn't know or never realised where the bounds are.
The fan lost in nostalgia will call it "Trial and Error" but the realist will point out that it's simply a result of bad game design which leads to an inaccessible experience.
You look back at your favorite games and say "That game was not quest driven and it was full of discovery and random wandering". These type of games are still around, except nowadays you call them "Grindfests with no content".
Truth is, World of Warcraft relaunched the genre. Games like Ultima Online kept the MMORPG popularity from reaching its full potential. Ultima Online wasn't the first MMORPG but it was certainly the first "Big name" MMORPG and look at it, it maxed out at around 200k subscribers. The Korean equivalent of Ultima Online would be Lineage, except that Lineage was more accessible . And look at it, Lineage had millions of subscribers and the MMORPG genre in Korea just exploded, which didn't happen with UO. Everquest did a lot better, and WoW is just enormous. Why is WoW so enormous? Because it didn't make the same mistakes old MMORPG's made, in fact, WoW's designers were Everquest players. But if you keep blinding yourself with nostalgia, you'll never see where UO and EQ went wrong.
Will there be more innovation? Over time, yes I think innovation will happen, just not yet. With the introduction of WoW,, MMORPG"s have finally reached a big enough audience to help it lift ouf of the "niche genre" it used to be.There are lots of new players and they need to be introduced to the genre properly before they move on to the next step, and that takes time.
It's called nostalgia and it's a very dangerous thing.
The thing is that you're describing is Nostalgia and it happens with a lot of people who played the old MMORPG is.There is no MMORPG like your first MMORPG because settling foot inin an online virtual world for the very first time is a thrilling experience. You don't really know what to expect and there is a certain rush knowing that nearly everybody you meet are real people playing. As soon as you play more mmorpg's, this new feeling starts to wear off and you'll start to look at MMO's differently.
A person who has played multiple MMORPG's and a person who is new to the genre approach a game in very different wasys. An experienced player will wonder "Ok, How do I level the fastest, when do I need to group and when will I get my first new skill?" a new player doesn't really know what to expect from the game and thus the possibilities seem endless.
A game may seem "wide open" but that's simply because you didn't know or never realised where the bounds are.
The fan lost in nostalgia will call it "Trial and Error" but the realist will point out that it's simply a result of bad game design which leads to an inaccessible experience.
You look back at your favorite game and say "That game were not quest driven and was full of discovery and random wandering". These type of games are still around, except nowadays you call them "Grindfests with no content".
Truth is, World of Warcraft relaunched the genre. Games like Ultima Online kept the MMORPG popularity from reaching its full potential. Ultima Online wasn't the first MMORPG but it was certainly the first "Big name" MMORPG and look at it, it maxed out at around 200k subscribers. The Korean equivalent of Ultima Online would be Lineage, except that Lineage was more accessible . And look at it, Lineage had millions of subscribers and the MMORPG genre in Korea just exploded, which didn't happen with UO. Everquest did a lot better, and WoW is just enormous. Why is WoW so enormous? Because it didn't make the same mistakes old MMORPG's made, in fact, MMORPG's designers were Everquest players. But if you keep blinding yourself with nostalgia, you'll never see where UO and EQ went wrong.
Excellent post. I couldn't agree more.
Sorry but I disagree with this "all MMOs sux" OP.
While I understand liking or disliking a MMO is all a matter of a players tastes.
I happen to think Eve, Ryzom,CoH and even LotRO are really good games.
While we have had some stinkers like Vanguard, TR and AoC they aren't all bad.
Now you say you don't like all the WoW clones? well first of all they aren't WoW clones (except for WAR)
all these games are taking something away from UO, EQ and AC mostly.
You say you dont like the boring fedex quests? well thats what an MMO is if it has quests.
Maybe you just don't like the MMO genre as a whole?
What do you want out of a MMO? different types of combat options? like TCoS? well I just tried that mmo/fps hybrid and the combat is boring and unresponsive as shit.
You want FFA pvp? well I've been playing Eve and no game has Harsher pvp yet you don't like Eve.
You want different quests? well LotRO and EQ2 have a ton of quests all types and you don't like those and even go as far as saying they are WoW clones which they clearly aren't.
Personally I just think you need to leave the MMO genre because it will never turn out to be the way you want it. MMOs will always have fetch quests, simple combat, Either skill or talent trees and either a static pvp endgame or a pve item grind. ASking for different is like asking Devs of a car racing game to omit the roads or take all the wheels off the cars. It doesn't work.
You don't like MMOs anymore thats ok, its only a game. hell I out grew fighting games like Street fighter and Mortal kombat you dont see me on a fighting game board wanting them to omit combos.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
I wish people would stop telling me how to think.
MMOs suck is an opinion and I've already stated that the modern day mmo is garbage compared to what it could be, a feeling that places me in the minority.
If you want to get technical they are all EQ clones. WoW clones is a better term because its modern and everyone knows what you're talking about.
My definition of a wow clone:
A game with quests.
A game with task after task as if I need to be led by my nose from zone to zone to zone.
Hierarchical zone content in the sense that you do one zone , get the levels and move on to the next zone. Was Deceit actually "harder" than Shame ? (Well the lich lord room for sure but you get my point).
A game where gear is meaningless. There is too much emphasis on loot and less on writing a good story behind the acquisition of each and every item. When I played D&D I could tell you a story about each item I obtained. Magic items are suposed to be rare - not dropping off a rat in the woods.
Leveling / Endgame progression......MMOS aren't suposed to have an end game.
I am indeed not a mmorpg gamer because people dont want RPG games online anymore. They WANT to run on a treadmill like a hamster and collect the next piece of trivial gear so they can move on to the next piece of trivial gear.
Its sad really, that people have such low expectations from their games. What me and many others are looking for is not a complex change really.
And You're not telling everyone else how to think? At least to the same strength that we're tell you to. Only you're worse because you know that by spewing about a bit of poison you can get the "weaker" to think twice about their MMOs, because the same thing just might have happened to you.
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You mean people actually play MMOs like that? Because I certaily haven't played many that were like that because I know that I don't want to.
I guess if you're calling every MMO on the list to the left a WoW clone(no wait all MMOs) based on that criteria it really just proves you haven't gotten around as much as you claimed to have.
Lets see: all browser MMOs(empire building, character building, hybrid), Mabinogi(F2P), Runescape(another F2P but hybrid ish), EvE, Ryzom, WurmOnline, and A Tale in the Desert. I mean come on these are just games no one will argue with You could easily start including things like Guildwars, the pirates/ship games from last year, and quite a few others.
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Actually it is a complex change because it's already all around you and you don't see it. Developers can't change the player after all.
You have no economic vote in the MMORPG genere because you don't play MMOs, you only play flaws then spew forum rhetoric about them a month later.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
The funny thing is that the MMORPG's you mentioned are just as character progressive as todays modern MMO's are.
Paulscott, cant talk with ya bud you just want to look down and say im wrong. You are combative and argumentative and look for every chance you can for subtle attacks on my intelligence. Surely I must be "wrong" because we don't agree.
Gameloading i dont buy the nostaliga arguement one little bit.
There is nothing nostaligic about wanting to move from task driven games that have beautiful landscapes and completely stagnatated game play. Its not a lack of technical ability or some desentization on my part that drives shitty games.
Why do mobs need to stand around and wait to be killed?
Why do we have to have crappy quest hubs with crappy quests to get crappy gear?
I'm not new to this genre. I've seen era's come and go and today's lack of innovation on the developer's part is not my problem (quite literally since I'm not playing).
All games suck because they are basically rehashed versions of the same game.
Let me say it again: All games that have task driven quests, level based hierarchial based content systems are clones of one another. Its like having different versions of a word processor or cans of Cola Soda. THey may have slightly different flavors but they all fizz.
An open ended world like UO or early era Eq is what some of us are looking for.