It's open and everyone can see the results: EVERY CLASS is represented multiple times in the top 100 Arena teams. Taking "only" some BG or only top 10 teams is ridiculous: make your data as big as possible and you will see that EVERY class can become super gladiator.
No actually - pretending that a rating of 2200 in EU-Cyclone means exactly the same thing as 2200 in EU-Nightfall is the ridiculous thing. Different battlegroups are different...
None the less, to humour you, I've gone through the top 16 teams in the "all 3v3" table. I counted numbers from each class:
and I was still able to name the two classes that would be top. If the game was truely balanced then any class would have the possibility of coming top, and predictions would have been impossible.
I clearly stated that in taking top 100 ratings you see multiple entries of ALL classes.
Only taking top 10 or top 20 are such a small sample, it's useless statistically.
We are talking here about 40 to 50 players on a total possible 11.5 million players.
The fact that EVEN then in the top 16 of the complete million competition EVERY class is represented means that balance is very very fune tuned for an MMORPG.
So your whining post fails as indeed - EVEN in the not representative top 16 teams there is a representation of every class.
Now take these samples to the TOP 100 or top 500 teams and you'll see the stats will even out.
ALL classes are there. IF the game was really foolishly unbalanced, some classes would never be seen in these top 100 teams.
And still we are talking here about 300 players out of a possible 11.5 million.
But of course that doesn't suit your arguments.
No other MMORPG comes even near the balance of Wow classes. Not by a long shot.
And the reason is VERY simple. Tx to the arena system classes are constantly fine tuned to AVOID long term domination of some classes (which really isn't important). and of course AVOID long term nerving of classes (which really is far more important).
The moment you reread the above paragraph a few times, you may finally understand HOW the system works in Wow and why its balancing techniques are more polished than any other MMORPG.
I see now that you've lost the argument you want to say because out of the millions of wow players some of them are not DKs and Palandins that there is full class balance and WoW is a perfectly polished gemstone. As for your Fine Tuning When more than half of the top teams are DK/Pally combos is not class balance and by every class being represented adding in players who are ON DK, Pally teams or who are by all means being carried by DKs and Pallies is parsing your arguement to fit your warped logic.
If you would play Arena 3vs3, you would know that on these TOP players (the top 100 or top 500), there is NO room to "carry" players through.
Every fraction/reaction/balance issue is ^punished in such a way that each character needs to play FULL top to even come to these ratings.
BTW most of these guys play multiple classes and most just like to experiment now with the new DK and attuned Paladin class.
I am very proud to know one of those "champions". They play about 3 to 4 hours each day on arena and indeed use multiple classes. Just to give you ONE example of today:
I witnessed live a free arena fight today between a lvl 70 rogue solo against a level 70 retriPala and lvl 73 DK. The solo rogue won. Beautiful fight. The rogue made the Pala bubble, vanished and took them both down. Photo taken if you are interested. When I asked how he does things, the guy said : you only need to let the pala bubble and then you know you can win.
------
It is ONLY when you see these kind of players play live, that you stand in awe for Wow PvP.
Well were not going to agree on class balance, but on the other hand that rogue was either godlike or those two were terrible, possibly both. His fault for the early bubble you learn way before arena to make the pally bubble.
I'm sure the top Arena players are very good, I do watch the match ups, however I also see more rogue mage teams than ever, also more pally dk matchups.
I'm not bashing the players ability I am saying that unless they are nerfed somthing I am not for then certain classes need buffs because Priests, Shaman, Hunters, Warlocks and Warriors have to work much harder and in most cases outplay a DK Pally only to still die, that is not Polish that is imbalance.
As for a game that can compete with WoW arena or pvp Guild Wars is without a doubt far and away superior to wow as far as pvp issus and competitive pvp is involved, so is Asherons Call, DAOC, L2, Shadowbane lol erm some of the new Korean grinders also are just better , sadly.
Well were not going to agree on class balance, but on the other hand that rogue was either godlike or those two were terrible, possibly both. His fault for the early bubble you learn way before arena to make the pally bubble. I'm sure the top Arena players are very good, I do watch the match ups, however I also see more rogue mage teams than ever, also more pally dk matchups. I'm not bashing the players ability I am saying that unless they are nerfed somthing I am not for then certain classes need buffs because Priests, Shaman, Hunters, Warlocks and Warriors have to work much harder and in most cases outplay a DK Pally only to still die, that is not Polish that is imbalance. As for a game that can compete with WoW arena or pvp Guild Wars is without a doubt far and away superior to wow as far as pvp issus and competitive pvp is involved, so is Asherons Call, DAOC, L2, Shadowbane lol erm some of the new Korean grinders also are just better , sadly.
Sadly...
It can't be proven what you are saying because AC, DAoC, L2, Shadowbane, BlaBlaBlaBla don't even have a competitve Chess like ELO rating system. So you scream without data.
You still don't get it. the arena system provides ample data to balance things. I would like you to visit the Blizz site and see what each patch did in the past to balance the PvP classes further (tx to the arena system).
They did it the past 2.5 years and so they will balance it further the next years. But in the meantime .... every class can get the ultimate titles and gear. Stats are there to prove that.
No stats exist for the programs you mention, because ... the tools (competitive ladder system) don't even exist.
BTW That 70 rogue charcacter takes down every day level 80's in duels right in front of Ogrimmar. the latest I saw were a priest, a rogue, a pala and a ... DK. He takes the photos, so np to mail them to you.
The guy's mains are a hunter and another rogue btw, and he is a national soccer youth player. Awesome eye hand coordination. Or should I say foot. :--)
WoW ladder or not the games pvp is inferior by a long shot. It's like trying to compare pokemon the Magic the Gathering it's just not a contest, sure they have pokemon tournaments, but ill take the casual MTG player over a pikachu fanatic anyday. I am aware of what the latest patch did FOR me. Also just because I keep a recorded score doesn't mean I am by default better than someone else beating someones tetris score and claiming pvp mastery over everyone else because, you have a score now is silly. And Blah Blah guild wars does and most of them laugh at the WoW broken pvp system, and if given a choice i doubt would switch to WoW for pvp porposes. If you have only played WoW it's easy to miss that your the laughing stock of the pvp gaming world.
WoW ladder or not the games pvp is inferior by a long shot. It's like trying to compare pokemon the Magic the Gathering it's just not a contest, sure they have pokemon tournaments, but ill take the casual MTG player over a pikachu fanatic anyday. I am aware of what the latest patch did FOR me. Also just because I keep a recorded score doesn't mean I am by default better than someone else beating someones tetris score and claiming pvp mastery over everyone else because, you have a score now is silly. And Blah Blah guild wars does and most of them laugh at the WoW broken pvp system, and if given a choice i doubt would switch to WoW for pvp porposes. If you have only played WoW it's easy to miss that your the laughing stock of the pvp gaming world.
Well you are actively promoting the Wow bashing this night aren't you ? (in various threads btw).
I won't give in, because you come with ZERO elements or data. Suddenly trying to prove your point of comparing ... Pokemon CCG with MAgic CCG. What kind of joke is this?
I showed you that arena is a perfect tool for Blizzard to balance its classes. And you can only cite games where there is not even a rated comparable competition to gather data for PvP attunements.
How? By looking at figures of some mass Pvp which no one can trace or follow?
read this: this is just one little patch to balancing techniques tx to our arena system:
------------- Patch 3.08 changes to further fine tune the classes: ---now on PTR live within 2 weeks.
Death Knights
All multi-rune abilities generate 15 runic power.
Anti-Magic Shell: The cooldown has been lowered to 45 sec from 60 sec.
Blood Aura now grants 2/4% instead of 1/2% healing.
Blood Presence now grants 2/4% instead of 1/2% healing.
Bloody Strikes will receive extra bonus damage from Pestilence.
Bone Shield: The mitigation has been reduced from 40% to 20%.
Corpse Explosion: Damage increased substantially, added 5 sec. cooldown, and changed cost to 40 runic power.
Dark Command: Range increased to 30 yards.
Death Pact now grants 40% instead of 20% healing.
Frost Presence: The bonus armor has been increased from 60 to 80% and magic damage reduction increased from 5 to 15%.
Heart Strike no longer has a haste debuff but will now be able to strike two targets.
Horn of Winter now has no cost and grants 10 runic power in addition to its stat buff, but has a 20 second cooldown.
Howling Blast: Cooldown removed.
Icebound Fortitude now reduces damage by 20% instead of 50%. The amount of damage reduced increases with bonus Defense (to about 35% for 540 Defense, but can go higher).
Night of the Dead now grants 40/70% passive area spell avoidance to your pet in addition to its current effects.
Outbreak will no longer receive bonus damage from pestilence. The bonus from Plague Strike and Blood Boil has been increased slightly.
Pestilence no longer has a 10 seconds cooldown.
Raise Dead has now been split into two spells:
Raise Dead now raises a ghoul or pet ghoul (if talented). Requires corpse dust if no humanoid corpse is nearby.
Raise Ally now raises a fallen party member as a ghoul and has no reagent. Available at level 72. This should now last for 4 minutes.
Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle (two-handed only) now grants 25 Defense and 2% Stamina.
Rune Strike: Damage decreased from 200% to 150% but threat increased to 150% from 100%.
Shadow of Death: The duration has been changed from 45 seconds to 25 seconds.
Unholy Blight had had its cost reduced from 60 to 40 runic power.
Wandering Plague will now properly reset after being cast.
Vampiric Blood: In addition to its current effects, also adds 20% health temporarily.
Will of the Necropolis will now reduce the damage of any attack that takes the DK below 35% health by 5 /10/15% instead of boosting armor when wounded.
Druids
Aquatic Form is now available from druid trainers at level 16.
Feral Attack Power: All weapons now have the potential to grant feral attack power based on their dps (as compared to the best superior-quality weapons available at level 60). Players will see their existing feral weapons grant roughly the same attack power as they did before (+/- 2 or so), but many new weapons will be options for the feral druid. Some feral weapons have had strength converted to attack power to be more appealing to other classes able to equip them. All druids will see the amount of feral attack power granted by an item in the item tooltip, if it grants any, but other players will not see that information.
Remove Curse and Abolish Poison can now be used in Moonkin form.
Genesis: Now works with Tranquility and Hurricane.
Growl: Range increased to 30 yards.
King of the Jungle - The Bear effect is now physical, and thus cannot be dispelled.
Moonglow: This talent now also benefits Nourish.
Nature's Grace - Now also effects Revive.
Nourish: Wild Growth applied to a target now increases the healing done by this spell by 20% like other heal over time effects.
Polearms: Now trainable by Druids.
Primal Tenacity: Now reduces the cost of Bear Form, Cat Form, and Dire Bear Form by 17/33/50% in addition to its previous effects.
Protector of the Pack: No longer changes value based on party size.
Savage Roar: The buff now persists outside of Cat Form but only provides its benefits while in Cat Form.
Starfall: Instead of canceling shapeshifting, now cancels on shapeshifting into an animal form.
Survival of the Fittest: This talent now grants 22/44/66% bonus armor in Bear Form and Dire Bear Form in addition to all of its previous effects.
Swipe: Swipe (Cat) has now been added at level 71, dealing 260% weapon damage, costs 50 energy with no cooldown. All talents affecting the Bear Form version affect the Cat Form one as well.
Wild Growth now has a 6 second cooldown.
Hunters
All Hunter pet abilities with a cooldown of 30 seconds or more are no longer on the global cooldown.
Arcane Shot: Mana cost lowered to match the cost of Steady Shot.
Aspect of the Wild - This aspect is now raid-wide.
Call of the Wild: The benefit from this pet talent now applies to only the Hunter and their own pet.
Deterrence: Design changed to grant 100% parry and 100% chance to "deflect" spells coming from the front, but prevents the Hunter from attacking. Lasts 5 sec. 60 sec. cooldown.
Explosive Shot: Damage increased substantially, and additional scaling added to compensate Survival Hunters for the decrease in power of Steady Shot. No longer deals damage to secondary targets.
Improved Tracking (Survival): This talent has been slightly re-designed. Now reads: While tracking Beasts, Demons, Dragonkin, Elementals, Giants, Humanoids and Undead, all ranged damage done to those types is increased by 1/2/3/4/5%.
Kill Shot ? Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds, down from 35 sec.
Kindred Spirits: This talent now grants only 3/6/9/12/15% pet damage.
The coefficient of Rake (Cat) and Scorpid Venom (Scorpid) has been lowered.
Readiness: No longer resets the cooldown on Bestial Wrath.
Steady Shot: Now gains 10% of attack power as damage instead of 20%.
Serpent's Swiftness: This talent now grants only 2/4/6/8/10% bonus attack speed to pet. The hunter attack speed bonus is unchanged.
Tranquilizing Shot has had its cooldown reduced to 6 seconds, down from 15.
Unleashed Fury: This talent now grants only 3/6/9/12/15% pet damage.
Viper Sting: Now drains a percentage of maximum mana.
Volley: The damage has been reduced on all ranks by approximately 30% (including attack power scaling).
Mages
Arcane Blast: This ability has been significantly changed. Arcane Blast now increases the damage of the next Arcane spell by 15%. However, using Arcane Blast itself does not consume the charge itself. Each time you cast Arcane Blast, the damage of Arcane spells is increased by 15% and the mana cost of Arcane Blast is increased by 200%. This effect stacks up to 3 times and lasts 10 seconds or until any Arcane damage spell except Arcane Blast is cast.
Arcane Flows: Now also reduces the cooldown of Evocation by 1m/2m.
Elemental Precision: Renamed to Precision and now works on all spells.
Evocation: Cooldown reduced to 4 min.
Improved Blizzard: The snaring effect has been reduced to 25/40/50%.
Slow Fall is now castable on others.
Torment the Weak: Now works with Arcane Blast and does bonus damage against targets afflicted with any type of slow (such as the combat slow from Thunder Clap).
Paladins
Avenging Wrath: Divine Shield, Divine Protection, and Avenging Wrath cannot be used within 30 seconds of each other anymore. Forbearance removed from Avenging Wrath.
Divine Protection: The penalty has been removed.
Divine Shield: The penalty has been changed so that all damage done is reduced by 50% in place of an attack speed penalty.
Hand of Reckoning (NEW): Available on trainers at level 16. It?s a 30 yard range taunt that causes Holy damage.
Judgements of the Pure: This Holy talent now increases the damage done by Seals and Judgements.
Judgement of Wisdom: Now returns a percentage of base mana instead of a percentage of max mana.
Sacred Duty: Interaction with Divine Shield and Divine Protection removed, but stamina bonus increased.
Priests
Abolish Disease and Cure Disease can now be cast while in Shadowform.
Holy: Circle of Healing now has a 6 second cooldown.
Levitate is now castable on others.
Mana Burn: Now burns a percentage of maximum mana.
Shadow
Shadowform: You can now shift into Shadowform while mounted or sitting.
Vampiric Embrace- Mana cost of this spell has been removed.
Rogues
Fan of Knives: The cooldown has been removed. In addition, now deals 150% of weapon damage when used while daggers are equipped.
Feint: Rank 8 now reduces the damage taken from area of effect attacks by 50% for 6 seconds in addition to its existing effects.
Shaman
Fire Nova Totem: Now no longer generates threat.
Healing Way: Now only one application is required to reach full benefit. No longer stacks.
Improved Water Shield: Lesser Healing Wave now has a reduced chance to trigger this talent.
Magma Totem: The damage and scaling has been increased and no longer generates threat.
Mental Quickness and Static Shock have switched positions in the talent tree.
Mental Quickness: Reduces the mana cost of instant cast Shaman spells by 2/4/6% and increases spell power by an amount equal to 10/20/30% of your attack power.
Searing Totem (Rank 4) now does the proper damage for its rank.
Tremor Totem's duration has been increased from 2 minutes to 5 minutes.
Elemental
Elemental Oath: In addition to existing effects, now increases spell damage done by the Shaman by 5/10% while Elemental Focus Clearcasting is active.
Elemental Mastery: Redesigned. Now increases the Shaman's critical strike chance by 20% for 30 seconds. Cooldown remains at 3 minutes.
Elemental Shields: This talent has been removed. It has now been merged with Elemental Warding.
Elemental Warding: Now reduces all damage taken by 2/4/6%. Changed from only reducing Nature, Fire and Frost by 4/7/10%.
New Talent: Shamanism-Your Lightning Bolt spell gains an additional 2/4/6/8/10% and your Lava Burst gains an additional 4/8/12/16/20% of your bonus damage effects.
Storm, Earth and Fire: This talent has been moved up in the tree, and its talent points have been reduced to 3 down from 5. Wind Shock is also included in the range increase (with Earth Shock). The damage bonus to Flame Shock has been increased, up from 10/20/30/40/50 to 20/40/60.
Unrelenting Storm: point cost reduced to 3, down from 5. Now does 4/8/12%
Warlocks
Demon Armor and Demon Skin: Armor increased by approximately 120%.
Demonic Circle: The teleport now clears all snare effects.
Drain Mana: Now drains a percentage of maximum mana.
Emberstorm: Now works with Conflagrate.
Ritual of Summoning: Will now create a summoning portal object which can be re-used for multiple summons for 5 minutes.
Warriors
Bloodthirst: Charges have been decreased to 3, but the effect has been raised to 1% per charge.
Fury: Bloodsurge: Now has a chance to trigger from any hit with Heroic Strike, Bloodthirst, or Whirlwind.
Fury:Titan's Grip: The hit chance penalty has been removed.
Taunt: Range increased to 30 yards.
-----------------------------------
OK that was patch 3.08. (only for class fine tuning btw or else I would need to publish pages and pages ...).care to disucuss )). I took just the latest one.
That's the difference tx to Arena and about 10 times more developpers and data than other MMO's combined can assemble.
You could have just linked that last patch note link instead of that. Half if not most of that are either reverts or nerfs. But in general it's your run of the line patch note, every game has patches I don't know what your trying to prove here. I have already read these patch notes. But since were playing this game ok.
Test Server Patch Notes.
You should no longer do the loot animation while swiming.
The flame on the Torch of Eiglophian will now die after a while.
Now all spells can be casted with dagger and staff without problems.
When you train Basic or Advanced Riding, you will no longer be teleported
Fixed an alignment issue with quest indicators over quest NPC’s heads.
Transition Quest Goal Markers have been updated to fit where the NPC’s now stand.
Locking to raid instances have been fixed. All players participating in a raid will now be locked.
Fixed problem that would cause the resource manager to hang indefinitely if the client consistantly fails to download a resource.
Bonus spell damage now increases both minimum and maximum damage, instead of just maximum (average damage will remain unchanged).
Stat bonuses from items (strength, wisdom, dexterity and constitution) will now properly affect your character (Note that strength now directly affects your DPS, not your attack rating).
GUI
All Assassin abilities which stack multiple times now have a stack count in the buff GUI.
All Bear Shaman, Priest of Mitra, and Tempest of Set abilities which stack multiple times now have a stack count in the buff GUI.
Items
Hood of Jagged Barbs has been revamped.
Polearms should now be the intended size.
Added new purple rare drops to world loot.
Conqueror Spear should now look the right size.
Cimmeria hide light wrist should no longer clip with arms
Changed reference to Steelsilk to Gossamer Silk in the Full Trade Response.
Average, Fair, Fine and Superior Meat will no longer end up in the quest inventory.
Crafting Item: Renamed item “Bloodsilver-studded Boots” to “Bloodsilver-mail Boots”
The purchase price of vendor-bought alchemy reagents are now one third of what they were.
Hek’lar’s Accursed Dagger will now appear with the correct icon in the player’s inventory.
Fixed an issue with ‘Darfari Armbands’, they should be visible on female characters and have stats now.
Crafting Item: Skymetal-studded Wristbands and Bluesteel-studded Wristbands (rare) And should be different from each other.
NPC
Vistrix’ Profanity debuff has been tweaked.
Ice Cave: Ice worms should now attack correctly.
Field of the dead: Dusk wolf should reset properly.
The Acheronian Warlord will drop bossloot armor again.
The trader in Lacheish Plains has been removed as intended.
Toirdealbach should now be a more fun and playable encounter.
The Catacombes: Necromancer Undead should now attack correctly.
The Champion of the Honorguard now uses its correct abilities again.
Ethi woke up with his height a bit smaller than what it was yesturday.
Villa Lentulus: Gurges the Nimble should react normally to players.
Yakhmar’s Cave: Yakhmar should no longer get stuck if it cannot reach its target.
Kyllikki’s Crypt: Kyllikki should reset properly when noone is in her hate list.
Khopshef Province: Freed Rogue Slave should now use his weapons correctly.
Mounts
Revamped translation so the blood is displayed relative to horse as well.
The targetting arrow should now be positioned correctly when targetting a horse, gorilla and Mtilator
You will half your chance of beeing knocked off the horse from the sides. You cannot be knocked off the horse if the attacker is standing in front of you
Monsters lower level than you will have a much lower chance of knocking you off the horse. Monsters higher level than you will have a much higher chance of knocking you off the horse.
Fixed a problem where advanced mount abilities were being given out by the basic training. Mammoth and Rhino owners - Please use /claim again. This will train the attack abilities associated with these two mount types.
Playfields
Purple Lotus Swamp: Ladders should now work correctly.
Tarantia Noble: Players should now be able to teleport into the arena by clicking on the door.
Tarantia Noble: The Arena in Armsman Tavern has been redone. If you are looking for challenging arena fights, you can do so either alone or as part of a group.
Player Cities
Player Cities will now have the Trader NPC now.
The stack-size of building materials has been raised to 1000.
Player Characters
Archetype
New buff counters were added to a number of mage and soldier effects.
All gathering feats should now have the correct proficiency suffix in their name.
The Goad ability can be trained and used on a NPC that does not have aggro on you. You must be in combat to use this ability.
The buffs from rogue general feats Concealment, Distraction and Mountaineer will now be removed from characters when they untrain feats.
You can no longer enter spellweaving when climbing or swimming. If you are hiding or crouching and enter spellweaving, you will leave that state immediately.
Assassin
Flesh Rot now applies a separate debuff for each player Lotus Weapons now now applies a separate debuff for each player.
Bear Shaman
Wreck Armor I+II+III combos now have improved visuals and sound.
Conqueror
You may now use Incite the Ranks if Fire Weave is running.
Throat Slash can now only be used with a melee weapon and not a ranged weapon.
Dark Templar
Soul Barrier’s cast time has been reduced from 3 seconds to 1 second.
Changed the Cooldown of Unhallowed Blight III to 20s.
Changed the Unholy Debuff to be 5% on all combos. - Changed the duration of the debuff to last for 25s.
Reduced the Mana cost of the following spells by 50%:
Aura of Dread Fury (Ranks 1 - 4)
Aura of Infusion (Ranks 1 - 5)
Covenant of Pestilence (Ranks 1 - 4)
Covenant of War (Ranks 1 - 3)
Covenant of Death
Covenant of Invulnerability (Ranks 1 - 3)
Covenant of Vengeance
Drain Life (Ranks 1 - 5)
Demonologist
Waves of Flame now inflicts more damage each tick.
The animation for the Demonologist-spell Unholy Hate has been slowed down by 25%.
Resolved an minor issue with Demonologist spellweaving not affecting stamina potion effects.
Herald of Xotli
Resolved a issue with “Blood Pit” so it will always spawn if you successfully kill a minion with the “I Eat Your Heat” combo.
Necromancer
You no longer lose the Cannibalism spell when investing the second feat.
Vile Insight now gives the intended Unholy Specialization as reflected in the description.
Plauged Heart Curse will now correctly increase in damage with more feats trained.
Parasitic Soul Swarm now inflicts more damage each tick.
Pestilential Blast now has an additional skull visual.
Priest of Mitra
Revoled a problem with the priest of mitra spellweaving ability.
Repulse has had its base damage lowered slightly and contribution from bonus magic damage increased.
Cleansing Fire now has a slightly lower manacost and now scales correctly across all levels.
The damage bonus applied to Repulse, Cleansing Fire, and Lance of Mitra from Force of Will has been lowered to the correct amount.
The damage bonus from Improved Repulse has been significantly increased
Ranger
The buffs from ranger stances Shattering Stance, Piercing Stance, Fire Stance and Sniper Stance will now be removed from characters when they untrain feats.
Tempest of Set
Brutal Lightning Strike should no correctly increase the critical strike chance of Lightning Strike.
Tradeskills
Obsidian has been renamed to Feldspar.
Orichalcum has been renamed to Duskmetal.
Tigereye Gems will now end up in the resource inventory.
Skinning Trainer will now tell you were to get skins.
Your harvesting will no longer get interrupted by someone outside of the resource and building playfields.
Resource nodes can now always be harvested while their health is at 10%.
The Weaponsmith Trainer now gives the cooldown warning when the cooldown is in effect.
The dialogues of the Resource Gatherer Trainers and Crafter Trainers now check if the player has the appropriate feats set on them, in addition to quests. If the player has the quest to gather resources or craft, but has lost the feat that enables him to do so, the feat is now retrained (to the correct tier).
Quests
Dealing with Dila: Dila should now attack.
Hunting the Spider: Quest can now be completed.
The Lost Scouts: Waypoint to Dairmad was fixed.
Oasis of Zaara: Waypoints for quest were fixed.
In Defense of Beauty: Quest can be completed now.
Flowers of the Snow: The flowers way markers were adjusted.
Paetus and the Nemedian Crown: Waypoint for Armsman’s Tavern was fixed.
Wanted posters should now give proper feedback if the player already has the quest or does not meet the requirements.
Rahim & Lord Camillus: had it’s journal text modified, as he doesn’t stand near the Armsman’s Tavern.
Death to the Undead: Indicators for minimap were displaying to small. This has been resolved.
The Mark of Acheron: Players will now be able to experience the destiny event in the Field of Chiefs.
The Mark of Acheron: The Mark of Acheron is permanently removed when performing the Medallion Ritual now.
Soul Chamber: If you die in the soul chamber you now lose the tablet in your quest inventory.
Destiny Quest: The quest rewards ‘King Conan’s Tribute’ & ‘King Conan’s Esteem’ are no longer tradeable.
The Lost Bottles: Wine bottles will now have a blue flame indicating you can interact with them.
Tradeskill Quests: You can now delete all tradeskill quests but tradeskill progression quests.
Tradeskill Quests: Resolved various level requirement issues with the quests.
First my patch notes were for the announced class balances only.
Having a contribution to our discussion.
Your patch notes are for 90% simple patch notes to a game. Not even talking of classes for 90%.
No other game can use an arena rendered data output to balance the classes like Wow can.
So you say things without back up. I show you the data of Arena ratings. That's the difference.
You rattle nonsense that can't be backed up. In Wow Arena data serve to further fine tune the classes with each patch.
There is the difference in quality between what I post and the garbage of simply cut and paste what you do to fill OUR Wow forums with non funded hate.
3.08 class notes are game nerfs and class patches in general they are not directly linked to Arena some of those are obvious raid patches, I mean it's just a wow ptr patch note, I'm beginning to think your not very informed. I think your putting way too much into something you don't fully understand.
The above example shows HOW big the gap really is between Wow and the rest of the bunch of fantasy MMORPG's in "polishing" classes and the real "force" behind this game.
Everyone can say there is a balance in their game.
But only Blizzard can say they have a complete system in place to compare competitive results of very traceable PvP data through its arena system.
OR it's just patch notes like every other game on earth has.
I understand that keeping WoW polished is important to you but it's really nothing special or differant than what other games have, you read way to much into basic patch notes.
that each class PvP patch (just like I said) can easely be traced in ... results on the arena battlefield.
So the cycle is round in Wow. Because everyone - even you - can see that all classes are represented in the top arena teams. Some more than others. But all are represented in the top 100 multiple times.
So enter the new class patches to further fine tune them (like patch 3.08).
Ending the discussion but with one winner: the players.
And by far the best fine tuned PvP system in Fantasy land.
The data speak for themselves.
.... It's a circle, that keeps getting fine tuned for ever.
A maginificent system btw, because control is complete tx to the arena data the players themselves deliver.
And the result is ... that each class PvP patch (just like I said) can easely be traced in ... results on the arena battlefield. So the cycle is round in Wow. Because everyone - even you - can see that all classes are represented in the top arena teams. Some more than others. But all are represented in the top 100 multiple times. So enter the new class patches to further fine tune them (like patch 3.08). Ending the discussion but with one winner: the players. And by far the best fine tuned PvP system in Fantasy land. The data speak for themselves. No matter what the trolls say.
No they are not equally represented in top arena teams that is more make believe from you.
Your patch notes are not handed down directly from Arena they are just patch notes lol.
And the result is ... that each class PvP patch (just like I said) can easely be traced in ... results on the arena battlefield. So the cycle is round in Wow. Because everyone - even you - can see that all classes are represented in the top arena teams. Some more than others. But all are represented in the top 100 multiple times. So enter the new class patches to further fine tune them (like patch 3.08). Ending the discussion but with one winner: the players. And by far the best fine tuned PvP system in Fantasy land. The data speak for themselves. No matter what the trolls say.
No they are not equally represented in top arena teams that is more make believe from you.
Your patch notes are not handed down directly from Arena they are just patch notes lol.
its the most BROKEN PvP in mmos today lol.
But it's obvious to me now you havn't got a Clue.
The data speak for themselves.
.... It's a circle, that keeps getting fine tuned for ever.
A maginificent system btw, because control is complete tx to the arena data the players themselves deliver.
No other mechanism comes even close. No matter what trolls say.
Now take these samples to the TOP 100 or top 500 teams and you'll see the stats will even out.
I call bull-sh*t
You're making a claim - so prove it. Because what you are saying sounds to me far more like an article of religious faith than anything based on fact.
You can call it whatever you like but I repeat what you yourself stated.
ALL 10 classes are represented in the top 16 world Arena teams (3vs3) right NOW.
A mere 3(!) weeks after the new PvP season started.
That some classes are more represented in this very small sample (48 players on a possible 11.5 million) is proof that imbalance is NOT an issue because ... all classes are included.
The fact that ALL classes can be traced MULTPLE times in the top 100 (300! players) shows the game has a maginificent balance after .... 3 WEEKS of the new PvP competition with the new talents.
---
Now enter the extensive patch 3.08 with further PvP class polishing: (see above my post) to further fine tune the mechanics.
YOUR problem is , is that you don't see the Arena system as a data pool to constanly enhance the balancing of the classes in PVP.
NO other so called "PvP" oriented MMORPG can fall back to these stats.
That's the problem why you run out of arguments.
IF some classes would fall out the top 100 arena teams, the system warns Blizz to balance these classes (by boosts or nerves). Sometimes even with "live" patches.
But at least WE have a system playing Wow. A monitored system which everyone can follow btw !!!. You just pointed it out yourself.
The other so called "PvP games" can't even use stats of competitve tactical play, which makes ALL balancing in those games a "wet thumb" feeling because of lack of data results.
Bodypass - for someone terribly short on facts you adopt a horribly superior and condescending attitude.
So far you have just reported one fact over and over again (that every class is represented). And have completely failed to offer any sort of counter to my evidence that representation is extremely uneven.
You claimed that when the sample size was extended then representation would become more even. This has been proven above to be complete hogwash.
So every class can get there - if they have exactly the right team combination and 3 players all of whom are exceptionally highly skilled.
However, some classes find it much much easier than others - at all levels of play. This is the reason why there are so many more paladins and death knights.
For example - a warlock can't get anywhere in arena at the moment without a helpful paladin to offer blessing of protection. They have no real defence of their own. Meanwhile a decent paladin can have a free choice of partners. Is that balanced? Of course not.
I'd agree that arena is a wonderful tool to evaluate performance and provides Blizzard with a huge wealth of statistics. It's a pity Blizzard make such crap use of all this wealth of information.
Many players would have been able to predict exactly which classes would be top in arena the day WotLK came out. You could see it coming a mile off - so if it was so blatantly obvious, why didn't Blizzard do anything about it?
That wealth of information, that excellent tool of which you speak, is being squandered by a bunch of second raters.
Bodypass - for someone terribly short on facts you adopt a horribly superior and condescending attitude. So far you have just reported one fact over and over again (that every class is represented). And have completely failed to offer any sort of counter to my evidence that representation is extremely uneven. You claimed that when the sample size was extended then representation would become more even. This has been proven above to be complete hogwash. So every class can get there - if they have exactly the right team combination and 3 players all of whom are exceptionally highly skilled. However, some classes find it much much easier than others - at all levels of play. This is the reason why there are so many more paladins and death knights. For example - a warlock can't get anywhere in arena at the moment without a helpful paladin to offer blessing of protection. They have no real defence of their own. Meanwhile a decent paladin can have a free choice of partners. Is that balanced? Of course not.
I just highlighted your first hurdle. Grtz. You understand it now.
The fact that some combos are better is a tactical consideration. 3 DK won't come far either.
Now take the second hurdle and go see the PTR launched 3.08 patch.
To me the only probem arises if one class would completely fall out the top Arena teams. And even top 100 or 500 is a ridiculously low number of players btw.
Third hurdle for you is to see that the arena SYSTEM is in place to fine tune the classes over and over again, which makes for a pretty good mechanism.
I've come up with way better than you've come up with. I've come up with facts. Evidence. All you have is wild claims, opinion and hyperbola. All worthless.
Out of curiosity - if there is one black person who is CEO of a fortune 500 company and 499 white people are, would you claim the races had equal chances? Such a claim would be ridiculous.
So why are you making a similar claim for the arena?
Its a fact that each class is represented in the ranking, but what about EACH TALENT TREE( spec )?
Don't come with bulls@#$, it's a fact that most of the specs in top rankings are based on a specific job, hybrid classes don't have all trees there and this fact comes more true when the rankings shows a LOT of team with 2 DKs or 2 Ret paladins.
CLASS BALANCE DOES NOT EXIST.
Lol ... i doubt that a rougue, "best melee dps" by concept, would make the impossible pulls like mages, even using all furtive skills their have.
Out of curiosity - if there is one black person who is CEO of a fortune 500 company and 499 white people are, would you claim the races had equal chances? Such a claim would be ridiculous. So why are you making a similar claim for the arena?
MULTIPLE doesn't mean ... one.
I can count several of your "rare" Warlocks right on the spot between 10 different color of races btw (not just one black and all whites).
And ... do NOT forget that paladins can be Healers or DPS.
There are several warlocks - but many many fewer than there are paladins.
And your claims about multiple roles for paladins just seems desperate to me. Are you seriously saying that because there are 3 paladin roles, then there should be 3 times more paladins than warlocks?
Such a claim is laughable. Every class has 3 talent trees.
No game will ever be balanced, especially one that really tries to have so many different playstyles as WOW and makes efforts to make sure every spec is viable in every aspect. 1. Pve - solo
2. Pve -small group (5 man)
3. Pve - raids
4. PvP - Arena (2-5 man)
5 PvP - world/large pvp ( Wintergrasp, AV) And then you have to go into the fact that the devs have to 'reasonably' balance things for leveling 70-80... and again have to balance things as players progress in gear at endgame. They have to balance Arena now, and then again when most players have this seasons gear. That is basically what the issue is with hunters right now. They are powerful (probably highest dps) at the beginning of lvl 80 raiding (nax)... but what may happen to them is what happened to mages with BC.. as we progress through raid content, they may become less and less powerful until they are in the lower half of the dps classes. The devs are going to nerf hunters now (because they are too good currently in raiding), but have said they might need to revert some of those nerfs later on as we get into more raids. They are aware of what happened with mages, and won't let it happen again. I really do disagree about DKs though. They are overpowered at low levels (58-65) because they have great gear that is perfect itemized for them. But at 80, DKs are not that good. I would say they aren't even in the top 50% of classes. Ret pallys were nerfed at the end of wrath beta testing. They were OP for most of beta, but they aren't OP now. There will always be situation where you can pick one aspect of the game and say one spec is OP.. but that is really dependant on your character and the difference between OP and 'average' really isn't that much... especially compared to some other games. I mean look at WH/WE's in warhammer. At least in WOW, there are like 6 classes that get called OP ( rogues, hunters, DKs, warriors, druids, pallys).
First off about the ret pally thing. LOLZ
Dude ret pallies are fuckin rediculously overpowered. Getting 2 shotted with 18k health is just plain stupid against someone that has SOOOOOOOO many defensive capabilities.
Dks is not as overpowered but they are still OP compared to most of the classes in-game.
I am a Ele shammy full T 7.5. I have the gladiator title from burning crusade but atm I am a COMPELTELY useless class (except for a few totems). We suck at PVE and PVP. I will name the classes I stand absolutly no chance against in pvp. Pallies, rogues, Dks, MS warriors, Mages (any spec), feral druids, hunters. I find it quite stupid that blizzard can send out a game completly unbalanced considering they have soooo much money, resources and had PLENTY of time to create this expansion.
I dont even do arena anymore and nor do any of my friends who all have the brutal set. Blizzard had better fix this game fast or they will lose alot of people. Atm the games state is the worst that it has ever been balance wise.
IMO the biggiest problems the game consist of is the amount of burst damage for the amount of defence alot of the classes have.
Every overpowered class in the game has the same problem. Ret pallies can dish out 15k damage in about 5 seconds but what makes this overpowered is that they have 2 stuns//shield and a range execute.
Rogues is pretty much the same deal except imo there worse, TONS of damage, TONS stuns, and on top of that 2 vanishs as well as blind AND cloak of fuckin shadows lol. O ya and cant forget about poisons lolz. They have created a class that is IMPOSSIBLE to run away from unless your a rogue or pally lol. Gj blizz!!!
Anywayz I know im QQing a bit about this shit but hey, if you played a ele shammy and have 4 years of experience which means complete shit now because you get owned by a class that any crippled retard high on speed can play, you would be pissed to.
O and this so called "buff" shammies get this next patch will NOT even come close to what must be done for shammies to be decent enough for pvp to get in the high ranking.
Comments
No actually - pretending that a rating of 2200 in EU-Cyclone means exactly the same thing as 2200 in EU-Nightfall is the ridiculous thing. Different battlegroups are different...
None the less, to humour you, I've gone through the top 16 teams in the "all 3v3" table. I counted numbers from each class:
and I was still able to name the two classes that would be top. If the game was truely balanced then any class would have the possibility of coming top, and predictions would have been impossible.
I clearly stated that in taking top 100 ratings you see multiple entries of ALL classes.
Only taking top 10 or top 20 are such a small sample, it's useless statistically.
We are talking here about 40 to 50 players on a total possible 11.5 million players.
The fact that EVEN then in the top 16 of the complete million competition EVERY class is represented means that balance is very very fune tuned for an MMORPG.
So your whining post fails as indeed - EVEN in the not representative top 16 teams there is a representation of every class.
Now take these samples to the TOP 100 or top 500 teams and you'll see the stats will even out.
ALL classes are there. IF the game was really foolishly unbalanced, some classes would never be seen in these top 100 teams.
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/
It is very clear in the link above.
And still we are talking here about 300 players out of a possible 11.5 million.
But of course that doesn't suit your arguments.
No other MMORPG comes even near the balance of Wow classes. Not by a long shot.
And the reason is VERY simple. Tx to the arena system classes are constantly fine tuned to AVOID long term domination of some classes (which really isn't important). and of course AVOID long term nerving of classes (which really is far more important).
The moment you reread the above paragraph a few times, you may finally understand HOW the system works in Wow and why its balancing techniques are more polished than any other MMORPG.
I see now that you've lost the argument you want to say because out of the millions of wow players some of them are not DKs and Palandins that there is full class balance and WoW is a perfectly polished gemstone. As for your Fine Tuning When more than half of the top teams are DK/Pally combos is not class balance and by every class being represented adding in players who are ON DK, Pally teams or who are by all means being carried by DKs and Pallies is parsing your arguement to fit your warped logic.
If you would play Arena 3vs3, you would know that on these TOP players (the top 100 or top 500), there is NO room to "carry" players through.
Every fraction/reaction/balance issue is ^punished in such a way that each character needs to play FULL top to even come to these ratings.
BTW most of these guys play multiple classes and most just like to experiment now with the new DK and attuned Paladin class.
I am very proud to know one of those "champions". They play about 3 to 4 hours each day on arena and indeed use multiple classes. Just to give you ONE example of today:
I witnessed live a free arena fight today between a lvl 70 rogue solo against a level 70 retriPala and lvl 73 DK. The solo rogue won. Beautiful fight. The rogue made the Pala bubble, vanished and took them both down. Photo taken if you are interested. When I asked how he does things, the guy said : you only need to let the pala bubble and then you know you can win.
------
It is ONLY when you see these kind of players play live, that you stand in awe for Wow PvP.
Well were not going to agree on class balance, but on the other hand that rogue was either godlike or those two were terrible, possibly both. His fault for the early bubble you learn way before arena to make the pally bubble.
I'm sure the top Arena players are very good, I do watch the match ups, however I also see more rogue mage teams than ever, also more pally dk matchups.
I'm not bashing the players ability I am saying that unless they are nerfed somthing I am not for then certain classes need buffs because Priests, Shaman, Hunters, Warlocks and Warriors have to work much harder and in most cases outplay a DK Pally only to still die, that is not Polish that is imbalance.
As for a game that can compete with WoW arena or pvp Guild Wars is without a doubt far and away superior to wow as far as pvp issus and competitive pvp is involved, so is Asherons Call, DAOC, L2, Shadowbane lol erm some of the new Korean grinders also are just better , sadly.
Sadly...
It can't be proven what you are saying because AC, DAoC, L2, Shadowbane, BlaBlaBlaBla don't even have a competitve Chess like ELO rating system. So you scream without data.
You still don't get it. the arena system provides ample data to balance things. I would like you to visit the Blizz site and see what each patch did in the past to balance the PvP classes further (tx to the arena system).
They did it the past 2.5 years and so they will balance it further the next years. But in the meantime .... every class can get the ultimate titles and gear. Stats are there to prove that.
No stats exist for the programs you mention, because ... the tools (competitive ladder system) don't even exist.
BTW That 70 rogue charcacter takes down every day level 80's in duels right in front of Ogrimmar. the latest I saw were a priest, a rogue, a pala and a ... DK. He takes the photos, so np to mail them to you.
The guy's mains are a hunter and another rogue btw, and he is a national soccer youth player. Awesome eye hand coordination. Or should I say foot. :--)
WoW ladder or not the games pvp is inferior by a long shot. It's like trying to compare pokemon the Magic the Gathering it's just not a contest, sure they have pokemon tournaments, but ill take the casual MTG player over a pikachu fanatic anyday. I am aware of what the latest patch did FOR me. Also just because I keep a recorded score doesn't mean I am by default better than someone else beating someones tetris score and claiming pvp mastery over everyone else because, you have a score now is silly. And Blah Blah guild wars does and most of them laugh at the WoW broken pvp system, and if given a choice i doubt would switch to WoW for pvp porposes. If you have only played WoW it's easy to miss that your the laughing stock of the pvp gaming world.
Well you are actively promoting the Wow bashing this night aren't you ? (in various threads btw).
I won't give in, because you come with ZERO elements or data. Suddenly trying to prove your point of comparing ... Pokemon CCG with MAgic CCG. What kind of joke is this?
I showed you that arena is a perfect tool for Blizzard to balance its classes. And you can only cite games where there is not even a rated comparable competition to gather data for PvP attunements.
How? By looking at figures of some mass Pvp which no one can trace or follow?
read this: this is just one little patch to balancing techniques tx to our arena system:
------------- Patch 3.08 changes to further fine tune the classes: ---now on PTR live within 2 weeks.
Death Knights
All multi-rune abilities generate 15 runic power.
Anti-Magic Shell: The cooldown has been lowered to 45 sec from 60 sec.
Blood Aura now grants 2/4% instead of 1/2% healing.
Blood Presence now grants 2/4% instead of 1/2% healing.
Bloody Strikes will receive extra bonus damage from Pestilence.
Bone Shield: The mitigation has been reduced from 40% to 20%.
Corpse Explosion: Damage increased substantially, added 5 sec. cooldown, and changed cost to 40 runic power.
Dark Command: Range increased to 30 yards.
Death Pact now grants 40% instead of 20% healing.
Frost Presence: The bonus armor has been increased from 60 to 80% and magic damage reduction increased from 5 to 15%.
Heart Strike no longer has a haste debuff but will now be able to strike two targets.
Horn of Winter now has no cost and grants 10 runic power in addition to its stat buff, but has a 20 second cooldown.
Howling Blast: Cooldown removed.
Icebound Fortitude now reduces damage by 20% instead of 50%. The amount of damage reduced increases with bonus Defense (to about 35% for 540 Defense, but can go higher).
Night of the Dead now grants 40/70% passive area spell avoidance to your pet in addition to its current effects.
Outbreak will no longer receive bonus damage from pestilence. The bonus from Plague Strike and Blood Boil has been increased slightly.
Pestilence no longer has a 10 seconds cooldown.
Raise Dead has now been split into two spells:
Raise Dead now raises a ghoul or pet ghoul (if talented). Requires corpse dust if no humanoid corpse is nearby.
Raise Ally now raises a fallen party member as a ghoul and has no reagent. Available at level 72. This should now last for 4 minutes.
Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle (two-handed only) now grants 25 Defense and 2% Stamina.
Rune Strike: Damage decreased from 200% to 150% but threat increased to 150% from 100%.
Shadow of Death: The duration has been changed from 45 seconds to 25 seconds.
Unholy Blight had had its cost reduced from 60 to 40 runic power.
Wandering Plague will now properly reset after being cast.
Vampiric Blood: In addition to its current effects, also adds 20% health temporarily.
Will of the Necropolis will now reduce the damage of any attack that takes the DK below 35% health by 5 /10/15% instead of boosting armor when wounded.
Druids
Aquatic Form is now available from druid trainers at level 16.
Feral Attack Power: All weapons now have the potential to grant feral attack power based on their dps (as compared to the best superior-quality weapons available at level 60). Players will see their existing feral weapons grant roughly the same attack power as they did before (+/- 2 or so), but many new weapons will be options for the feral druid. Some feral weapons have had strength converted to attack power to be more appealing to other classes able to equip them. All druids will see the amount of feral attack power granted by an item in the item tooltip, if it grants any, but other players will not see that information.
Remove Curse and Abolish Poison can now be used in Moonkin form.
Genesis: Now works with Tranquility and Hurricane.
Growl: Range increased to 30 yards.
King of the Jungle - The Bear effect is now physical, and thus cannot be dispelled.
Moonglow: This talent now also benefits Nourish.
Nature's Grace - Now also effects Revive.
Nourish: Wild Growth applied to a target now increases the healing done by this spell by 20% like other heal over time effects.
Polearms: Now trainable by Druids.
Primal Tenacity: Now reduces the cost of Bear Form, Cat Form, and Dire Bear Form by 17/33/50% in addition to its previous effects.
Protector of the Pack: No longer changes value based on party size.
Savage Roar: The buff now persists outside of Cat Form but only provides its benefits while in Cat Form.
Starfall: Instead of canceling shapeshifting, now cancels on shapeshifting into an animal form.
Survival of the Fittest: This talent now grants 22/44/66% bonus armor in Bear Form and Dire Bear Form in addition to all of its previous effects.
Swipe: Swipe (Cat) has now been added at level 71, dealing 260% weapon damage, costs 50 energy with no cooldown. All talents affecting the Bear Form version affect the Cat Form one as well.
Wild Growth now has a 6 second cooldown.
Hunters
All Hunter pet abilities with a cooldown of 30 seconds or more are no longer on the global cooldown.
Arcane Shot: Mana cost lowered to match the cost of Steady Shot.
Aspect of the Wild - This aspect is now raid-wide.
Call of the Wild: The benefit from this pet talent now applies to only the Hunter and their own pet.
Deterrence: Design changed to grant 100% parry and 100% chance to "deflect" spells coming from the front, but prevents the Hunter from attacking. Lasts 5 sec. 60 sec. cooldown.
Explosive Shot: Damage increased substantially, and additional scaling added to compensate Survival Hunters for the decrease in power of Steady Shot. No longer deals damage to secondary targets.
Improved Tracking (Survival): This talent has been slightly re-designed. Now reads: While tracking Beasts, Demons, Dragonkin, Elementals, Giants, Humanoids and Undead, all ranged damage done to those types is increased by 1/2/3/4/5%.
Kill Shot ? Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds, down from 35 sec.
Kindred Spirits: This talent now grants only 3/6/9/12/15% pet damage.
The coefficient of Rake (Cat) and Scorpid Venom (Scorpid) has been lowered.
Readiness: No longer resets the cooldown on Bestial Wrath.
Steady Shot: Now gains 10% of attack power as damage instead of 20%.
Serpent's Swiftness: This talent now grants only 2/4/6/8/10% bonus attack speed to pet. The hunter attack speed bonus is unchanged.
Tranquilizing Shot has had its cooldown reduced to 6 seconds, down from 15.
Unleashed Fury: This talent now grants only 3/6/9/12/15% pet damage.
Viper Sting: Now drains a percentage of maximum mana.
Volley: The damage has been reduced on all ranks by approximately 30% (including attack power scaling).
Mages
Arcane Blast: This ability has been significantly changed. Arcane Blast now increases the damage of the next Arcane spell by 15%. However, using Arcane Blast itself does not consume the charge itself. Each time you cast Arcane Blast, the damage of Arcane spells is increased by 15% and the mana cost of Arcane Blast is increased by 200%. This effect stacks up to 3 times and lasts 10 seconds or until any Arcane damage spell except Arcane Blast is cast.
Arcane Flows: Now also reduces the cooldown of Evocation by 1m/2m.
Elemental Precision: Renamed to Precision and now works on all spells.
Evocation: Cooldown reduced to 4 min.
Improved Blizzard: The snaring effect has been reduced to 25/40/50%.
Slow Fall is now castable on others.
Torment the Weak: Now works with Arcane Blast and does bonus damage against targets afflicted with any type of slow (such as the combat slow from Thunder Clap).
Paladins
Avenging Wrath: Divine Shield, Divine Protection, and Avenging Wrath cannot be used within 30 seconds of each other anymore. Forbearance removed from Avenging Wrath.
Divine Protection: The penalty has been removed.
Divine Shield: The penalty has been changed so that all damage done is reduced by 50% in place of an attack speed penalty.
Hand of Reckoning (NEW): Available on trainers at level 16. It?s a 30 yard range taunt that causes Holy damage.
Judgements of the Pure: This Holy talent now increases the damage done by Seals and Judgements.
Judgement of Wisdom: Now returns a percentage of base mana instead of a percentage of max mana.
Sacred Duty: Interaction with Divine Shield and Divine Protection removed, but stamina bonus increased.
Priests
Abolish Disease and Cure Disease can now be cast while in Shadowform.
Holy: Circle of Healing now has a 6 second cooldown.
Levitate is now castable on others.
Mana Burn: Now burns a percentage of maximum mana.
Shadow
Shadowform: You can now shift into Shadowform while mounted or sitting.
Vampiric Embrace- Mana cost of this spell has been removed.
Rogues
Fan of Knives: The cooldown has been removed. In addition, now deals 150% of weapon damage when used while daggers are equipped.
Feint: Rank 8 now reduces the damage taken from area of effect attacks by 50% for 6 seconds in addition to its existing effects.
Shaman
Fire Nova Totem: Now no longer generates threat.
Healing Way: Now only one application is required to reach full benefit. No longer stacks.
Improved Water Shield: Lesser Healing Wave now has a reduced chance to trigger this talent.
Magma Totem: The damage and scaling has been increased and no longer generates threat.
Mental Quickness and Static Shock have switched positions in the talent tree.
Mental Quickness: Reduces the mana cost of instant cast Shaman spells by 2/4/6% and increases spell power by an amount equal to 10/20/30% of your attack power.
Searing Totem (Rank 4) now does the proper damage for its rank.
Tremor Totem's duration has been increased from 2 minutes to 5 minutes.
Elemental
Elemental Oath: In addition to existing effects, now increases spell damage done by the Shaman by 5/10% while Elemental Focus Clearcasting is active.
Elemental Mastery: Redesigned. Now increases the Shaman's critical strike chance by 20% for 30 seconds. Cooldown remains at 3 minutes.
Elemental Shields: This talent has been removed. It has now been merged with Elemental Warding.
Elemental Warding: Now reduces all damage taken by 2/4/6%. Changed from only reducing Nature, Fire and Frost by 4/7/10%.
New Talent: Shamanism-Your Lightning Bolt spell gains an additional 2/4/6/8/10% and your Lava Burst gains an additional 4/8/12/16/20% of your bonus damage effects.
Storm, Earth and Fire: This talent has been moved up in the tree, and its talent points have been reduced to 3 down from 5. Wind Shock is also included in the range increase (with Earth Shock). The damage bonus to Flame Shock has been increased, up from 10/20/30/40/50 to 20/40/60.
Unrelenting Storm: point cost reduced to 3, down from 5. Now does 4/8/12%
Warlocks
Demon Armor and Demon Skin: Armor increased by approximately 120%.
Demonic Circle: The teleport now clears all snare effects.
Drain Mana: Now drains a percentage of maximum mana.
Emberstorm: Now works with Conflagrate.
Ritual of Summoning: Will now create a summoning portal object which can be re-used for multiple summons for 5 minutes.
Warriors
Bloodthirst: Charges have been decreased to 3, but the effect has been raised to 1% per charge.
Fury: Bloodsurge: Now has a chance to trigger from any hit with Heroic Strike, Bloodthirst, or Whirlwind.
Fury:Titan's Grip: The hit chance penalty has been removed.
Taunt: Range increased to 30 yards.
-----------------------------------
OK that was patch 3.08. (only for class fine tuning btw or else I would need to publish pages and pages ...).care to disucuss
)). I took just the latest one. 
That's the difference tx to Arena and about 10 times more developpers and data than other MMO's combined can assemble.
You could have just linked that last patch note link instead of that. Half if not most of that are either reverts or nerfs. But in general it's your run of the line patch note, every game has patches I don't know what your trying to prove here. I have already read these patch notes. But since were playing this game ok.
Test Server Patch Notes.
GUI
Items
NPC
Mounts
Playfields
Player Cities
Player Characters
Archetype
Assassin
Bear Shaman
Conqueror
Dark Templar
Demonologist
Herald of Xotli
Necromancer
Priest of Mitra
Ranger
Tempest of Set
Tradeskills
Quests
See everyones got em
The difference ?
First my patch notes were for the announced class balances only.
Having a contribution to our discussion.
Your patch notes are for 90% simple patch notes to a game. Not even talking of classes for 90%.
No other game can use an arena rendered data output to balance the classes like Wow can.
So you say things without back up. I show you the data of Arena ratings. That's the difference.
You rattle nonsense that can't be backed up. In Wow Arena data serve to further fine tune the classes with each patch.
There is the difference in quality between what I post and the garbage of simply cut and paste what you do to fill OUR Wow forums with non funded hate.
3.08 class notes are game nerfs and class patches in general they are not directly linked to Arena some of those are obvious raid patches, I mean it's just a wow ptr patch note, I'm beginning to think your not very informed. I think your putting way too much into something you don't fully understand.
As a matter of fact.
The above example shows HOW big the gap really is between Wow and the rest of the bunch of fantasy MMORPG's in "polishing" classes and the real "force" behind this game.
Everyone can say there is a balance in their game.
But only Blizzard can say they have a complete system in place to compare competitive results of very traceable PvP data through its arena system.
The others do the wet thumb stuff.
OR it's just patch notes like every other game on earth has.
I understand that keeping WoW polished
is important to you but it's really nothing special or differant than what other games have, you read way to much into basic patch notes.
And the result is ...
that each class PvP patch (just like I said) can easely be traced in ... results on the arena battlefield.
So the cycle is round in Wow. Because everyone - even you - can see that all classes are represented in the top arena teams. Some more than others. But all are represented in the top 100 multiple times.
So enter the new class patches to further fine tune them (like patch 3.08).
Ending the discussion but with one winner: the players.
And by far the best fine tuned PvP system in Fantasy land.
The data speak for themselves.
.... It's a circle, that keeps getting fine tuned for ever.
A maginificent system btw, because control is complete tx to the arena data the players themselves deliver.
No they are not equally represented in top arena teams that is more make believe from you.
Your patch notes are not handed down directly from Arena they are just patch notes lol.
its the most BROKEN PvP in mmos today lol.
But it's obvious to me now you havn't got a Clue.
No they are not equally represented in top arena teams that is more make believe from you.
Your patch notes are not handed down directly from Arena they are just patch notes lol.
its the most BROKEN PvP in mmos today lol.
But it's obvious to me now you havn't got a Clue.
The data speak for themselves.
.... It's a circle, that keeps getting fine tuned for ever.
A maginificent system btw, because control is complete tx to the arena data the players themselves deliver.
No other mechanism comes even close. No matter what trolls say.
I call bull-sh*t
You're making a claim - so prove it. Because what you are saying sounds to me far more like an article of religious faith than anything based on fact.
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Ok - I've just looked at a larger sample size - the top 300 teams. I couldn't be bothered to count every class, so I only counted warlocks.
Number of warlocks in the top 300 teams = 12
Now we earlier looked at the top 16 teams, and saw
Number of paladins in the top 16 teams = 13
So there are more paladins in the top 16 teams than there are warlocks in the top 300. That isn't balanced.
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I call bull-sh*t
You're making a claim - so prove it. Because what you are saying sounds to me far more like an article of religious faith than anything based on fact.
You can call it whatever you like but I repeat what you yourself stated.
ALL 10 classes are represented in the top 16 world Arena teams (3vs3) right NOW.
A mere 3(!) weeks after the new PvP season started.
That some classes are more represented in this very small sample (48 players on a possible 11.5 million) is proof that imbalance is NOT an issue because ... all classes are included.
The fact that ALL classes can be traced MULTPLE times in the top 100 (300! players) shows the game has a maginificent balance after .... 3 WEEKS of the new PvP competition with the new talents.
---
Now enter the extensive patch 3.08 with further PvP class polishing: (see above my post) to further fine tune the mechanics.
YOUR problem is , is that you don't see the Arena system as a data pool to constanly enhance the balancing of the classes in PVP.
NO other so called "PvP" oriented MMORPG can fall back to these stats.
That's the problem why you run out of arguments.
IF some classes would fall out the top 100 arena teams, the system warns Blizz to balance these classes (by boosts or nerves). Sometimes even with "live" patches.
But at least WE have a system playing Wow. A monitored system which everyone can follow btw !!!. You just pointed it out yourself.
The other so called "PvP games" can't even use stats of competitve tactical play, which makes ALL balancing in those games a "wet thumb" feeling because of lack of data results.
Capice ?
Bodypass - for someone terribly short on facts you adopt a horribly superior and condescending attitude.
So far you have just reported one fact over and over again (that every class is represented). And have completely failed to offer any sort of counter to my evidence that representation is extremely uneven.
You claimed that when the sample size was extended then representation would become more even. This has been proven above to be complete hogwash.
So every class can get there - if they have exactly the right team combination and 3 players all of whom are exceptionally highly skilled.
However, some classes find it much much easier than others - at all levels of play. This is the reason why there are so many more paladins and death knights.
For example - a warlock can't get anywhere in arena at the moment without a helpful paladin to offer blessing of protection. They have no real defence of their own. Meanwhile a decent paladin can have a free choice of partners. Is that balanced? Of course not.
I'd agree that arena is a wonderful tool to evaluate performance and provides Blizzard with a huge wealth of statistics. It's a pity Blizzard make such crap use of all this wealth of information.
Many players would have been able to predict exactly which classes would be top in arena the day WotLK came out. You could see it coming a mile off - so if it was so blatantly obvious, why didn't Blizzard do anything about it?
That wealth of information, that excellent tool of which you speak, is being squandered by a bunch of second raters.
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I just highlighted your first hurdle. Grtz. You understand it now.
The fact that some combos are better is a tactical consideration. 3 DK won't come far either.
Now take the second hurdle and go see the PTR launched 3.08 patch.
To me the only probem arises if one class would completely fall out the top Arena teams. And even top 100 or 500 is a ridiculously low number of players btw.
Third hurdle for you is to see that the arena SYSTEM is in place to fine tune the classes over and over again, which makes for a pretty good mechanism.
Unless you can come up with something better.
I've come up with way better than you've come up with. I've come up with facts. Evidence.
All you have is wild claims, condescension, opinion and hyperbola. All worthless.
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Nonsense: here are the facts:
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/
Every class is represented ... 3 weeks after launch.
And now read the 3.08 patch for PvP fine tuning. You failed BIG on this thread.
It's so easy to counter whiners with Arena stats.
Out of curiosity - if there is one black person who is CEO of a fortune 500 company and 499 white people are, would you claim the races had equal chances? Such a claim would be ridiculous.
So why are you making a similar claim for the arena?
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Its a fact that each class is represented in the ranking, but what about EACH TALENT TREE( spec )?
Don't come with bulls@#$, it's a fact that most of the specs in top rankings are based on a specific job, hybrid classes don't have all trees there and this fact comes more true when the rankings shows a LOT of team with 2 DKs or 2 Ret paladins.
CLASS BALANCE DOES NOT EXIST.
Lol ... i doubt that a rougue, "best melee dps" by concept, would make the impossible pulls like mages, even using all furtive skills their have.
http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=96991
MULTIPLE doesn't mean ... one.
I can count several of your "rare" Warlocks right on the spot between 10 different color of races btw (not just one black and all whites).
And ... do NOT forget that paladins can be Healers or DPS.
So just counting paladins is even an error.
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5/
There are several warlocks - but many many fewer than there are paladins.
And your claims about multiple roles for paladins just seems desperate to me. Are you seriously saying that because there are 3 paladin roles, then there should be 3 times more paladins than warlocks?
Such a claim is laughable. Every class has 3 talent trees.
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First off about the ret pally thing. LOLZ
Dude ret pallies are fuckin rediculously overpowered. Getting 2 shotted with 18k health is just plain stupid against someone that has SOOOOOOOO many defensive capabilities.
Dks is not as overpowered but they are still OP compared to most of the classes in-game.
I am a Ele shammy full T 7.5. I have the gladiator title from burning crusade but atm I am a COMPELTELY useless class (except for a few totems). We suck at PVE and PVP. I will name the classes I stand absolutly no chance against in pvp. Pallies, rogues, Dks, MS warriors, Mages (any spec), feral druids, hunters. I find it quite stupid that blizzard can send out a game completly unbalanced considering they have soooo much money, resources and had PLENTY of time to create this expansion.
I dont even do arena anymore and nor do any of my friends who all have the brutal set. Blizzard had better fix this game fast or they will lose alot of people. Atm the games state is the worst that it has ever been balance wise.
IMO the biggiest problems the game consist of is the amount of burst damage for the amount of defence alot of the classes have.
Every overpowered class in the game has the same problem. Ret pallies can dish out 15k damage in about 5 seconds but what makes this overpowered is that they have 2 stuns//shield and a range execute.
Rogues is pretty much the same deal except imo there worse, TONS of damage, TONS stuns, and on top of that 2 vanishs as well as blind AND cloak of fuckin shadows lol. O ya and cant forget about poisons lolz. They have created a class that is IMPOSSIBLE to run away from unless your a rogue or pally lol. Gj blizz!!!
Anywayz I know im QQing a bit about this shit but hey, if you played a ele shammy and have 4 years of experience which means complete shit now because you get owned by a class that any crippled retard high on speed can play, you would be pissed to.
O and this so called "buff" shammies get this next patch will NOT even come close to what must be done for shammies to be decent enough for pvp to get in the high ranking.