agree with OP. I stumbbled across Atlantica Online last month tho and have been playing it ever since, closest thing out that reminds me of the old days in MMORPG, yet fresh at the same time.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
I agree with the OP mostly, though for me it can be broken down into two features, graphics and quests.
Graphics is the virtual aspect which makes the world feel like a world. One is, not making it like a tunnel (as in AoC most regions) and make it look lush and vibrant, like in LOTRO. Another point is animated civlization life, and not having all glued down NPCs, without sounds without voiceover, without anything they do. VG's cities are particularly absymal in this. There sterility of their cities is really unparalleled, and it shows that graphics details are not everything. Its a matter of artistic design, of placement and usage of colour. A world who feels like a world must be vast, diverse and not feel like a Theme Park.
Which leads me to point 2, quests. Or generally "tasks you can do". Alas the current trend is making that streamlined. You have one or two quest hubs per area and its all very linear. Its something why WAR sucked for me, I always felt like in a Disney Land and not like in a world.
On the other hand, in some way a MMO will always be a game and not a world. I dont know for sure how a mere sandbox/holodeck without goals would be in the long run. I do seek the old adventure-quest-task, some classic "mission" to accomplish, though currently most of them are way too dull wtih the usual "kill X of Z".
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I'm with ya... But unfortunately for us, the "But they shuold be purh whack-a-mole games durnit, not have houses and stories and non combat stuff and stuff" crowd wins. Thanks to developers that ain't gamer, publishers that aint gamers and most importantly, the funders, who are cheapass boring men in suit with no knowledge at all about MMORPG's. Oh and thanks to the "Gamer" players who just can't let MMOREPG's be the one game genre thats a virtual experience, and have fun in all the other Gameygame genres instead.
Guilt trip much?
"Gamers' dont wanna go along with Uncle Owen play eh? I wonder why that is?
Could it be cause we want stuff to do? Or perhaps making gaming a whole "other life" is just taking it a bit far for us. We play to have fun...not throw our money away to sim a second job. Can get paid at your first job if that is what you wanna do all the time(work that is).
I am glad deciding what panties you wanna put on Uncle Owen, while he tills his fields, are enough for ya in a game.
I need more out of my gaming exp, and it appears the majority of gamers do as well.
Like it says in one of PnP books I once saw....there is no correct way...be it role-play or roll-play...go with what folks enjoy.
And it looks to me like roll-play is where it is at for MMO play. Rather than always throwing tantrums, it would be nice if you guys would either enjoy what is being produced. And if not, then it is YOU that needs to move along to another genre methinks.
The majority/money talks to gaming companies...not a niche crowd that just wont ease up, and constantly demands others either join them...or insults them. For being so "mature" as they claim, it is rather childish tactics they employ IMO.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I'm with ya... But unfortunately for us, the "But they shuold be purh whack-a-mole games durnit, not have houses and stories and non combat stuff and stuff" crowd wins. Thanks to developers that ain't gamer, publishers that aint gamers and most importantly, the funders, who are cheapass boring men in suit with no knowledge at all about MMORPG's. Oh and thanks to the "Gamer" players who just can't let MMOREPG's be the one game genre thats a virtual experience, and have fun in all the other Gameygame genres instead.
Guilt trip much?
"Gamers' dont wanna go along with Uncle Owen play eh? I wonder why that is?
Could it be cause we want stuff to do? Or perhaps making gaming a whole "other life" is just taking it a bit far for us. We play to have fun...not throw our money away to sim a second job. Can get paid at your first job if that is what you wanna do all the time(work that is).
I am glad deciding what panties you wanna put on Uncle Owen, while he tills his fields, are enough for ya in a game.
I need more out of my gaming exp, and it appears the majority of gamers do as well.
Like it says in one of PnP books I once saw....there is no correct way...be it role-play or roll-play...go with what folks enjoy.
And it looks to me like roll-play is where it is at for MMO play. Rather than always throwing tantrums, it would be nice if you guys would either enjoy what is being produced. And if not, then it is YOU that needs to move along to another genre methinks.
The majority/money talks to gaming companies...not a niche crowd that just wont ease up, and constantly demands others either join them...or insults them. For being so "mature" as they claim, it is rather childish tactics they employ IMO.
With so many mmos out now that fit your style and desired play in mmos why do you have a problem with some of us wanting a more open sandbox experience? You are sounding just like wolfman who you are critizing just with better english.
That is all that is ever heard at MMORPG.com anymore.... "we want the PRECioUs" or "we want sandboxes". If you suggest you like something other than those 2, then you get ripped apart by the same core of posters around here. Again and again. I never see fellow "sandboxers' stepping up, and lambasting the loud mouth portion of your gaming style.
Oh thats right....most the time it appears that is how the far majority act,
Some of us are sick of seeing it...the same post reworded over and over and over. We are also sick of being called shill/fanboi/ADD/etc cause we dont agree with sandbox play,
Not that hearing the same thing repeated time and again wasnt enough, now we are getting hit with "guilt trips" cause we dont wanna support sandbox games. Or better yet....want them to include sandbox in our directed content games to give these sandbox folks access to all games coming out.
Suuuuuure thing.
I wouldnt want my gaming style altered much/any to accomodate the small faction of "sandboxers" as it is. Then when you consider there will be folks from this MMORPG.com crowd there as well makes it an even easier call for me.
That call is to keep "sandbox" games away from directed content if I have my say. The tradeskillers can stay on unemployment...or come hunt dragons/storm space stations/whatever just like the majority of gamers.
There is enough conforming to the minority in the real world...sure as hell dont need it in gaming AFAIAC....especially when the styles dont mix in the first place. And it isnt just the game styles...IMO the folks that play such styles really arent compatible either...as demonstrated on these forums daily,
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Man I heard about htis awesome super real virtual world the other day, its called TPS Onine. Its even got fax machines that sometimes work and sometime don't. Oh man the detail is amazing. The cubicles look so real.
I'm with ya... But unfortunately for us, the "But they shuold be purh whack-a-mole games durnit, not have houses and stories and non combat stuff and stuff" crowd wins. Thanks to developers that ain't gamer, publishers that aint gamers and most importantly, the funders, who are cheapass boring men in suit with no knowledge at all about MMORPG's. Oh and thanks to the "Gamer" players who just can't let MMOREPG's be the one game genre thats a virtual experience, and have fun in all the other Gameygame genres instead.
Guilt trip much?
"Gamers' dont wanna go along with Uncle Owen play eh? I wonder why that is?
Could it be cause we want stuff to do? Or perhaps making gaming a whole "other life" is just taking it a bit far for us. We play to have fun...not throw our money away to sim a second job. Can get paid at your first job if that is what you wanna do all the time(work that is).
I am glad deciding what panties you wanna put on Uncle Owen, while he tills his fields, are enough for ya in a game.
I need more out of my gaming exp, and it appears the majority of gamers do as well.
Like it says in one of PnP books I once saw....there is no correct way...be it role-play or roll-play...go with what folks enjoy.
And it looks to me like roll-play is where it is at for MMO play. Rather than always throwing tantrums, it would be nice if you guys would either enjoy what is being produced. And if not, then it is YOU that needs to move along to another genre methinks.
The majority/money talks to gaming companies...not a niche crowd that just wont ease up, and constantly demands others either join them...or insults them. For being so "mature" as they claim, it is rather childish tactics they employ IMO.
Cause the games that all you so called types like to play dont do that well....2008 was proof of it.
Eccoton... That is all that is ever heard at MMORPG.com anymore.... "we want the PRECioUs" or "we want sandboxes". If you suggest you like something other than those 2, then you get ripped apart by the same core of posters around here. Again and again. I never see fellow "sandboxers' stepping up, and lambasting the loud mouth portion of your gaming style. Oh thats right....most the time it appears that is how the far majority act, Some of us are sick of seeing it...the same post reworded over and over and over. We are also sick of being called shill/fanboi/ADD/etc cause we dont agree with sandbox play, Not that hearing the same thing repeated time and again wasnt enough, now we are getting hit with "guilt trips" cause we dont wanna support sandbox games. Or better yet....want them to include sandbox in our directed content games to give these sandbox folks access to all games coming out. Suuuuuure thing. I wouldnt want my gaming style altered much/any to accomodate the small faction of "sandboxers" as it is. Then when you consider there will be folks from this MMORPG.com crowd there as well makes it an even easier call for me. That call is to keep "sandbox" games away from directed content if I have my say. The tradeskillers can stay on unemployment...or come hunt dragons/storm space stations/whatever just like the majority of gamers. There is enough conforming to the minority in the real world...sure as hell dont need it in gaming AFAIAC....especially when the styles dont mix in the first place. And it isnt just the game styles...IMO the folks that play such styles really arent compatible either...as demonstrated on these forums daily,
If you like directed content play single player games perhaps? Bad enough most MMOs suck now , even though they make them for your kind of playstyle but the problem is most of you dont stick with a MMO for very long you , play for a couple of months , pack up and go off to taint another MMO in development with your "Casual , mass appeal, we are more important rehetorhic ..." and the cycle continues , maybe it isnt the games , maybe its the type of players we have in MMOs now, lazy, gimme gimme gimme, we want have fun and damn everyone else wanting a challenge, we want easy , simple , and accesible , 2 months later your crying and whining cause you have nothing to do.......
The problem is everyone has a different threshold and criteria for what is "immersion breaking".
For example, some people whine and complain about zone transitions. Oh, if I have to zone it breaks my immersion, i want a seamless world, that's more immersive, blah, blah, blah.
Zoning doesn't break my immersion at all. If it helps wiith lag, then I'll zone no problem.
I agree completely. WAR turned out to be such a disappointment because it moved further away from the virtual world model and was so much less so than DAOC provided.
As to the sandbox/virtual world haters, they don't understand what they're missing, so their posts can be ignored in the context of this discussion.
Most of the recent MMO's released today fail to reach the lofty sub numbers they set out to achieve. While there are many contributing factors, the lack of a decent virtual world is certainly a major contributor as to why I don't hang around long in them, and I suspect the same is true for some others.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Not really. Hack-n-slash is much better (so *action* RPG in the standard genre lingo). Easier to get into, more enjoyment, no need to be mindful of stories and distraction .. focus on power-ups and loot. Basically Diablo in a MMO context. I will see if TOR can really put good stories back in MMO but right now .. hack-n-slash is the king.
Thats the thing I like Hack-N-Slash but for that I load up Diablo or any of it's clone type games.
I enjoy action RPG, there for play Fallout 3 or Mass Effect
I enjoy themeparks thats why I enjoy games like Cod4 or Cod/WaW
I enjoy strategy, for that I load up one of the RTS games I have.
MMORPG offered what those games didn't offer, or in some cases it offered everything that those other games offered and then some.
Most of the recent MMO's released today fail to reach the lofty sub numbers they set out to achieve. While there are many contributing factors, the lack of a decent virtual world is certainly a major contributor as to why I don't hang around long in them, and I suspect the same is true for some others.
I agree. The "virtual world" feature was one of the unique hooks that the genre had. With out that, there's very little motivation for me to play MMORPGs when there are better quality single player and multiplayer games out there. Sport PvP is MUCH better in FPS and immersion is MUCH better in single player RPGs.
Themepark MMOs are heading in a whole other direction and that's fine, as long as they don't strangle the rest of the genre in the process. When it comes down to it, the "sandboxers" and the "old school" crowd agree on one thing: they both want that virtual world feel. If some one can deliver that, they WILL have an audience.
Guilt trip much? "Gamers' dont wanna go along with Uncle Owen play eh? I wonder why that is? Could it be cause we want stuff to do? I feel you are probebly either new or young to games, why do some people think that I or WE don't want stuff to do? It really makes no sense, no person I know would enter a game regardless what genre and just stand there? Each and every person into games again regardless what type of genre does so because they want to do something. Or perhaps making gaming a whole "other life" is just taking it a bit far for us. To me that is called roleplaying the life of your character in that fantasy or sci-fi world, I fully understand that it's not for everyone but then ask yourself why even bother getting into a game which ends with the letters RPG. We play to have fun... You really think other people who go into games don't do so to have fun? not throw our money away to sim a second job. Lol the only ones I personaly see playing these games like jobs are those who for some reason feel the need to grind or cap lvl asap, sorry I don't fit your catergorie of people who pay for a second job, I mean I find that a really sad mindset that people actualy think that. Can get paid at your first job if that is what you wanna do all the time(work that is). I geuss you are clueless about the things some of us want seeing this reaction which does make sense at all. I am glad deciding what panties you wanna put on Uncle Owen, while he tills his fields, are enough for ya in a game. I need more out of my gaming exp, and it appears the majority of gamers do as well. Funny thats excactly what this topic is about, shame you don't seem to understand that. I have to say you have a very narrowminded view upon what gamers want. Like it says in one of PnP books I once saw....there is no correct way...be it role-play or roll-play...go with what folks enjoy. And it looks to me like roll-play is where it is at for MMO play. Rather than always throwing tantrums, it would be nice if you guys would either enjoy what is being produced. And if not, then it is YOU that needs to move along to another genre methinks. So many games that people like YOU can enjoy, yet you seem very selfish that you don't want your fellow gamer to also find that game to enjoy, to me all gamers regardless what type of game I want them to enjoy themself with The majority/money talks to gaming companies...not a niche crowd that just wont ease up, and constantly demands others either join them...or insults them. For being so "mature" as they claim, it is rather childish tactics they employ IMO. Seeing you visit the disgrunted vet section of this board I geuss your whole reply is actually based on what goes on there, sorry dude different type of VET here.
The problem is everyone has a different threshold and criteria for what is "immersion breaking". For example, some people whine and complain about zone transitions. Oh, if I have to zone it breaks my immersion, i want a seamless world, that's more immersive, blah, blah, blah. Zoning doesn't break my immersion at all. If it helps wiith lag, then I'll zone no problem.
That is in no way a problem. In fact it's one of the reasons forums exist so we all can share our different view points/opinions and discus them with each other
I 100% agree OP. My first and favorite MMO was Star Wars Galaxies, and NOTHING has come close to delivering that "living in a virtual world" feeling that that game provided. It was amazing how much more fun it made the game when the ability to feel like you were your character was so fluent.
It absolutely amazes me that this genre has been completely flooded by the single player gamers who come here and demand that MMOs be turned more into single player games. It is the exact opposite of what an MMO should be, and these people are demanding they become it. There is every other genre out there for these people to get their "hack n' slash, gimme now!" cravings yet for some reason they need MMOs to deliver it too? Dumbfounding.
Anyway, I also think the "virtual world" experience encourages other aspects of gaming that some usually wouldn't touch. I don't consider myself a role player in the least bit, yet in SWG I found myself doing things that would be considered "roleplaying" without even thinking about it, because it just came natural with the surrounding enviroment. And even though I'm usually a "hack n' slash" combat oriented person, I found that I really did enjoy things like player run economies, player housing and cities, and crafting. I feel that many people that haven't experience features like these, may assume they don't like them because they aren't that type of player, but would probably find they do enjoy them if they were available.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I 100% agree OP. My first and favorite MMO was Star Wars Galaxies, and NOTHING has come close to delivering that "living in a virtual world" feeling that that game provided. It was amazing how much more fun it made the game when the ability to feel like you were your character was so fluent.
Maybe my standards are too high but I quit SWG mainly because it did not make me feel that I was "living in a virtual world". The sandbox in SWG was way too limited and artificial. Once you reached a certain point there was no real growth and the best you could do was fake it that you were not spinning in place.
This is probably one of the reasons why I like WoW so much. It is very honest about what it is about and does not pretend to be a fake living virtual world.
Eccoton... That is all that is ever heard at MMORPG.com anymore.... "we want the PRECioUs" or "we want sandboxes". If you suggest you like something other than those 2, then you get ripped apart by the same core of posters around here. Again and again. I never see fellow "sandboxers' stepping up, and lambasting the loud mouth portion of your gaming style. Oh thats right....most the time it appears that is how the far majority act, Some of us are sick of seeing it...the same post reworded over and over and over. We are also sick of being called shill/fanboi/ADD/etc cause we dont agree with sandbox play, Not that hearing the same thing repeated time and again wasnt enough, now we are getting hit with "guilt trips" cause we dont wanna support sandbox games. Or better yet....want them to include sandbox in our directed content games to give these sandbox folks access to all games coming out. Suuuuuure thing. I wouldnt want my gaming style altered much/any to accomodate the small faction of "sandboxers" as it is. Then when you consider there will be folks from this MMORPG.com crowd there as well makes it an even easier call for me. That call is to keep "sandbox" games away from directed content if I have my say. The tradeskillers can stay on unemployment...or come hunt dragons/storm space stations/whatever just like the majority of gamers. There is enough conforming to the minority in the real world...sure as hell dont need it in gaming AFAIAC....especially when the styles dont mix in the first place. And it isnt just the game styles...IMO the folks that play such styles really arent compatible either...as demonstrated on these forums daily,
If you like directed content play single player games perhaps? Bad enough most MMOs suck now , even though they make them for your kind of playstyle but the problem is most of you dont stick with a MMO for very long you , play for a couple of months , pack up and go off to taint another MMO in development with your "Casual , mass appeal, we are more important rehetorhic ..." and the cycle continues , maybe it isnt the games , maybe its the type of players we have in MMOs now, lazy, gimme gimme gimme, we want have fun and damn everyone else wanting a challenge, we want easy , simple , and accesible , 2 months later your crying and whining cause you have nothing to do.......
Um unless you missed the news pal, it isnt gamers like myself that need to find a game to play.
That, for the totally oblivious(which you appear to be by your post), would be the sandbox crowd. As in "YOU NEED TO FIND A GAME TO PLAY IN THE FIRST PLACE".
I havent found a game I like to replace EQ yet as my game to play. So dont put things like AoC on me as "my" game. And it sure didnt fail due to being a PVE, or content laden world.
AoC- supposed to be a PvP crowd game. It isnt even about the PVE content which I favor. I quit buying big name MMOs cause sick of wasting my money. So I sat out this one. Great call on my part. I dont mind paying if I decide to play a few months. It is hard though when a game launches without content, and lacking polish as the various msg brds indicated.
WAR- I am unsure if is PvP, but pretty sure this one had problems as well.
Tabula Rasa-Hold on I am still laughing. OK...hit the forums...I didnt play so I couldnt tell ya about the tons of problems with this one.
Come to think of it, I dont remember any game since WOW that has brought both polish and content to the playing field. Oh wait...I forgot...LoTRO did just that. Kind of strange it has good numbers, and was just voted game of the year. /sarcasm off
Bottom line....games like AoC knew they had only one chance to get it right at launch...and they didnt. That they didnt live up to expectations doesnt surprise me in the least.
Just cause folks may screw it up, doesnt factor in the debate of what does better gaming wise(DIrected content or sandbox).
It is widely accepted that a game that is a PVE -content laden-loot centric-linear progression is going to have the best chance to grab a wide audience in North America than any other specific playstyle. I happen to not only agree with it, I really dont see anything to discount it out there in NA. Someone might say EVE....but I put that more on the PVP crowd.
The only thing that will really enhance PVE is to include PvP as well. That is as long as PvP isnt the focus for class balance. It has been my observation, that devs run into problems when they do balance characters for things like batttlefield play.
What isnt going to enhance the PVE game I listed is Uncle Owen. Instead he is going to distract PVE folks by needing to funnel them to give Pink-Panty-Owen his content selling gear.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Um unless you missed the news pal, it isnt gamers like myself that need to find a game to play. That, for the totally oblivious(which you appear to be by your post), would be the sandbox crowd. As in "YOU NEED TO FIND A GAME TO PLAY IN THE FIRST PLACE". Perhaps you misunderstood my topic, I was not talking about sandbox games, I was/am talking about a virtual experiance, of course it could be sandbox, but it's more in line for me towards a open world with freedom of play and not forced towards only one type of play: Combat roles. I havent found a game I like to replace EQ yet as my game to play. So dont put things like AoC on me as "my" game. And it sure didnt fail due to being a PVE, or content laden world. AoC- supposed to be a PvP crowd game. It isnt even about the PVE content which I favor. I quit buying big name MMOs cause sick of wasting my money. So I sat out this one. Great call on my part. I dont mind paying if I decide to play a few months. It is hard though when a game launches without content, and lacking polish as the various msg brds indicated. I thought to have found my niche in AoC untill they marked all resource nods on the map , that aside, it was to much of a game to be called a MMORPG for me and my personal playstyle towards MMORPG's. WAR- I am unsure if is PvP, but pretty sure this one had problems as well. Again for me too much game and not much MMORPG Tabula Rasa-Hold on I am still laughing. OK...hit the forums...I didnt play so I couldnt tell ya about the tons of problems with this one. If only the NGE came with that combat system I bet the game would be fine since..... I actually enjoyed Tabula Rasa, it had many things going for it, but it missed about everything that I would consider to be placed into the catergory of MMORPG, okay it was a MMO but it ended there, I really wished they added more traditional MMORPG feature's, like I said put TR's combat/animations into SWG and that game could really life again...... Come to think of it, I dont remember any game since WOW that has brought both polish and content to the playing field. Oh wait...I forgot...LoTRO did just that. Kind of strange it has good numbers, and was just voted game of the year. /sarcasm off I agree on that, WOW did/does many things good for allot of people so no ignoring that, again try to remember that WE WANT POLISH AND CONTENT TOO. Do you think I aplaud SOE for pre-cu with the content they provided.....hmmm what content.......we the player provided that for the most part, of course thanks to many feature's implimented back then. Bottom line....games like AoC knew they had only one chance to get it right at launch...and they didnt. That they didnt live up to expectations doesnt surprise me in the least. I honostly believe no game ever will life up to anyone's expectations, but I am postive there will be games to be enjoyed. Keping expectations high is good. Just cause folks may screw it up, doesnt factor in the debate of what does better gaming wise(DIrected content or sandbox). This is not a discussion about what is better gaming, each and every person has his own preference, I am just sharing mine and don't forget I am a GAMER and want all other gamers to enjoy what ever the game might be, even if I might dislike the game they enjoy you will NEVER see me saying that MY game is better the YOUR game, that is childish in my opinion. I want a different experiance then what you may like, and is that wrong? It is widely accepted that a game that is a PVE -content laden-loot centric-linear progression is going to have the best chance to grab a wide audience in North America than any other specific playstyle. I happen to not only agree with it, I really dont see anything to discount it out there in NA. Someone might say EVE....but I put that more on the PVP crowd. The only thing that will really enhance PVE is to include PvP as well. That is as long as PvP isnt the focus for class balance. It has been my observation, that devs run into problems when they do balance characters for things like batttlefield play. What isnt going to enhance the PVE game I listed is Uncle Owen. Instead he is going to distract PVE folks by needing to funnel them to give Pink-Panty-Owen his content selling gear.
Like I said in my topic, I want both combat and none combat to have fun, besided anyone is a Uncle Owen in most current MMO's, except some known guilds, but overall it's only your imagination or a NPC that is telling your not Uncle Owen but some Hero, I rather be known by the community I play with then be some NPC named hero.....
Um unless you missed the news pal, it isnt gamers like myself that need to find a game to play. That, for the totally oblivious(which you appear to be by your post), would be the sandbox crowd. As in "YOU NEED TO FIND A GAME TO PLAY IN THE FIRST PLACE". Perhaps you misunderstood my topic, I was not talking about sandbox games, I was/am talking about a virtual experiance, of course it could be sandbox, but it's more in line for me towards a open world with freedom of play and not forced towards only one type of play: Combat roles. I havent found a game I like to replace EQ yet as my game to play. So dont put things like AoC on me as "my" game. And it sure didnt fail due to being a PVE, or content laden world. AoC- supposed to be a PvP crowd game. It isnt even about the PVE content which I favor. I quit buying big name MMOs cause sick of wasting my money. So I sat out this one. Great call on my part. I dont mind paying if I decide to play a few months. It is hard though when a game launches without content, and lacking polish as the various msg brds indicated. I thought to have found my niche in AoC untill they marked all resource nods on the map , that aside, it was to much of a game to be called a MMORPG for me and my personal playstyle towards MMORPG's. WAR- I am unsure if is PvP, but pretty sure this one had problems as well. Again for me too much game and not much MMORPG Tabula Rasa-Hold on I am still laughing. OK...hit the forums...I didnt play so I couldnt tell ya about the tons of problems with this one. If only the NGE came with that combat system I bet the game would be fine since..... I actually enjoyed Tabula Rasa, it had many things going for it, but it missed about everything that I would consider to be placed into the catergory of MMORPG, okay it was a MMO but it ended there, I really wished they added more traditional MMORPG feature's, like I said put TR's combat/animations into SWG and that game could really life again...... Come to think of it, I dont remember any game since WOW that has brought both polish and content to the playing field. Oh wait...I forgot...LoTRO did just that. Kind of strange it has good numbers, and was just voted game of the year. /sarcasm off I agree on that, WOW did/does many things good for allot of people so no ignoring that, again try to remember that WE WANT POLISH AND CONTENT TOO. Do you think I aplaud SOE for pre-cu with the content they provided.....hmmm what content.......we the player provided that for the most part, of course thanks to many feature's implimented back then. Bottom line....games like AoC knew they had only one chance to get it right at launch...and they didnt. That they didnt live up to expectations doesnt surprise me in the least. I honostly believe no game ever will life up to anyone's expectations, but I am postive there will be games to be enjoyed. Keping expectations high is good. Just cause folks may screw it up, doesnt factor in the debate of what does better gaming wise(DIrected content or sandbox). This is not a discussion about what is better gaming, each and every person has his own preference, I am just sharing mine and don't forget I am a GAMER and want all other gamers to enjoy what ever the game might be, even if I might dislike the game they enjoy you will NEVER see me saying that MY game is better the YOUR game, that is childish in my opinion. I want a different experiance then what you may like, and is that wrong? It is widely accepted that a game that is a PVE -content laden-loot centric-linear progression is going to have the best chance to grab a wide audience in North America than any other specific playstyle. I happen to not only agree with it, I really dont see anything to discount it out there in NA. Someone might say EVE....but I put that more on the PVP crowd. The only thing that will really enhance PVE is to include PvP as well. That is as long as PvP isnt the focus for class balance. It has been my observation, that devs run into problems when they do balance characters for things like batttlefield play. What isnt going to enhance the PVE game I listed is Uncle Owen. Instead he is going to distract PVE folks by needing to funnel them to give Pink-Panty-Owen his content selling gear.
Like I said in my topic, I want both combat and none combat to have fun, besided anyone is a Uncle Owen in most current MMO's, except some known guilds, but overall it's only your imagination or a NPC that is telling your not Uncle Owen but some Hero, I rather be known by the community I play with then be some NPC named hero.....
Reklaw
Why did you remove my quote of Fireflys post, and then make it appear like I was addressing the OP. The first part of my post wasnt about the OP...instead instead it was commenting about another post in the thread.
Later on in my post I moved towards the idea being originally posted about....having play styles for all. And as I indicated, Roll-players dont want role-play as the primary feature of their MMO.
In laymans terms this means we dont care to give Uncle Owen a job selling us the best items in game. We either wanna loot or quest for it.
Having non-combat roles as a major function in a MMORPG is what "sandbox" is all about. Although in your post you try to hide it as such. YOu claim it doesnt matter if it is sandbox. Hwne you make non-combat viable then you have a sandbox,
Which is just another case of trying to piggy back your game style onto those that dont want that in their gaming exp. Instead content driven folks want the majority of work on content, with tradeskills being a secondary function that doesnt receive much attention.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Reklaw Why did you remove my quote of Fireflys post, You want the reason, it might suprise you...hold on......I will tell you.....and yes doing so again with this reply The only reason why I did that was because I felt it would be a to long of a post to gather all quote's in it and then make it appear like I was addressing the OP. Did nothing of the kind, pure how you view it, wasn't my idea why I did as I just explained The first part of my post wasnt about the OP...instead instead it was commenting about another post in the thread. Yeah but you kept bringin up sandbox where I say it's about a different experiance, could be a MMORPG with certain sandbox feature's but is not demanded to be, remember it is MY topic
Later on in my post I moved towards the idea being originally posted about....having play styles for all. And as I indicated, Roll-players dont want role-play as the primary feature of their MMO. In laymans terms this means we dont care to give Uncle Owen a job selling us the best items in game. We either wanna loot or quest for it. Having non-combat roles as a major function in a MMORPG is what "sandbox" is all about. Although in your post you try to hide it as such. YOu claim it doesnt matter if it is sandbox. Hwne you make non-combat viable then you have a sandbox, I do so in a open world game, some MMORPG do have certain sandbox feature's but they are NOT sandbox game, I am not able to raise land, I am not able to creat water or a pool somewhere in the middle of a desert, I aint able to create many thing I would consider sandbox, example a game that I really consider to be a sandbox game would be SimCity or Spore. oh and I thought there was a game called Wurmonline that had more sandbox in it then most common MMO's?, just the overall look/feel of the game didn't appeal to me. Which is just another case of trying to piggy back your game style onto those that dont want that in their gaming exp. Instead content driven folks want the majority of work on content, with tradeskills being a secondary function that doesnt receive much attention. Seriously I aint forcing anyone, I am sharing my opinion in how I would like a game to be, perhaps you need to stop visiting forums cause here is a place where people share different view points. If you feel it's forced then really stop visiting forums cause you are bound to see people share there opinions on it, and seems you not able to understand that they are opinions, I understand you sahre a opinion, why is it that hard to understand that on a forum we can discus that, you don't have to agree with me, perhaps that is what you think that you need to accept what I am saying? if so trust me you don't have to and seeing your replies kinda shows you have no idea what it is I want. What you need to do is look at specific game section, tell me if you see me bash any game, please name one game I bash cause I dislike that game in that specific section , sorry I don't do that like most, I speak up in the public section speaking about public things, sometimes towards certain games, sometimes just general, but never in a dedicated section will you see me bash others people fun or other people's games.
SWG was the last MMO I truly enjoyed as well. The game got worse as they made it less of a virtual world and more of some kind of linear system they wanted players to follow because that fruit loop julio torres or whatever his name was talking in his fruity gay lisp about "players want to be luke hehe!"
SWG was the last MMO I truly enjoyed as well. The game got worse as they made it less of a virtual world and more of some kind of linear system they wanted players to follow because that fruit loop julio torres or whatever his name was talking in his fruity gay lisp about "players want to be luke hehe!" So lame.
My problem with this is that it was indeed said by Torres, but when remembering the official forums from back then it was something that was complained about allot as many poeple who already left SWG early complained it wasn't Star Warsy enought, Jedi was to hard, there was to much reading, and yes DEVS have said those things aswell, but they only did so cause those on the forums spoke that much about it.
I don't think that I could disagree with the OP more. I already have a life and I don't need a second one. I already have a job and I don't need a second one.
Having said all that..... I think that Yahtzee hit the nail on the head in his review of Farcry 2. A narrative sandbox game needs an overarching goal as well as a huge world to explore or else you lose any sense of accomplishment and stop caring. Now you can have the freedom of deciding how to go about that great big goal, but you still need something to accomplish. This goal need not be epic or anything, but it does need to make sense in the context of your character. Just like real life, our goals often depend on our circumstances.
It's kind of like the design philosophy behind the upcoming Age of Decadence. Or maybe the original Deus EX would be a better example. Everything in the game has to be designed for multiple means of accomplishment while still being open ended enough for players to improvise means that the developers never considered. That's one tall order!
At any rate, just shoving people out into the wild with nary a hint as to what they should, or could, be doing is a sure way to make those of us with jobs move on to something else in a hurry. I don't care if there are games like what the OP mentioned. But for me personally? My life really doesn't suck so bad that I have to escape it completely.
Comments
agree with OP. I stumbbled across Atlantica Online last month tho and have been playing it ever since, closest thing out that reminds me of the old days in MMORPG, yet fresh at the same time.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
I agree with the OP mostly, though for me it can be broken down into two features, graphics and quests.
Graphics is the virtual aspect which makes the world feel like a world. One is, not making it like a tunnel (as in AoC most regions) and make it look lush and vibrant, like in LOTRO. Another point is animated civlization life, and not having all glued down NPCs, without sounds without voiceover, without anything they do. VG's cities are particularly absymal in this. There sterility of their cities is really unparalleled, and it shows that graphics details are not everything. Its a matter of artistic design, of placement and usage of colour. A world who feels like a world must be vast, diverse and not feel like a Theme Park.
Which leads me to point 2, quests. Or generally "tasks you can do". Alas the current trend is making that streamlined. You have one or two quest hubs per area and its all very linear. Its something why WAR sucked for me, I always felt like in a Disney Land and not like in a world.
On the other hand, in some way a MMO will always be a game and not a world. I dont know for sure how a mere sandbox/holodeck without goals would be in the long run. I do seek the old adventure-quest-task, some classic "mission" to accomplish, though currently most of them are way too dull wtih the usual "kill X of Z".
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Guilt trip much?
"Gamers' dont wanna go along with Uncle Owen play eh? I wonder why that is?
Could it be cause we want stuff to do? Or perhaps making gaming a whole "other life" is just taking it a bit far for us. We play to have fun...not throw our money away to sim a second job. Can get paid at your first job if that is what you wanna do all the time(work that is).
I am glad deciding what panties you wanna put on Uncle Owen, while he tills his fields, are enough for ya in a game.
I need more out of my gaming exp, and it appears the majority of gamers do as well.
Like it says in one of PnP books I once saw....there is no correct way...be it role-play or roll-play...go with what folks enjoy.
And it looks to me like roll-play is where it is at for MMO play. Rather than always throwing tantrums, it would be nice if you guys would either enjoy what is being produced. And if not, then it is YOU that needs to move along to another genre methinks.
The majority/money talks to gaming companies...not a niche crowd that just wont ease up, and constantly demands others either join them...or insults them. For being so "mature" as they claim, it is rather childish tactics they employ IMO.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Guilt trip much?
"Gamers' dont wanna go along with Uncle Owen play eh? I wonder why that is?
Could it be cause we want stuff to do? Or perhaps making gaming a whole "other life" is just taking it a bit far for us. We play to have fun...not throw our money away to sim a second job. Can get paid at your first job if that is what you wanna do all the time(work that is).
I am glad deciding what panties you wanna put on Uncle Owen, while he tills his fields, are enough for ya in a game.
I need more out of my gaming exp, and it appears the majority of gamers do as well.
Like it says in one of PnP books I once saw....there is no correct way...be it role-play or roll-play...go with what folks enjoy.
And it looks to me like roll-play is where it is at for MMO play. Rather than always throwing tantrums, it would be nice if you guys would either enjoy what is being produced. And if not, then it is YOU that needs to move along to another genre methinks.
The majority/money talks to gaming companies...not a niche crowd that just wont ease up, and constantly demands others either join them...or insults them. For being so "mature" as they claim, it is rather childish tactics they employ IMO.
With so many mmos out now that fit your style and desired play in mmos why do you have a problem with some of us wanting a more open sandbox experience? You are sounding just like wolfman who you are critizing just with better english.
Eccoton...
That is all that is ever heard at MMORPG.com anymore.... "we want the PRECioUs" or "we want sandboxes". If you suggest you like something other than those 2, then you get ripped apart by the same core of posters around here. Again and again. I never see fellow "sandboxers' stepping up, and lambasting the loud mouth portion of your gaming style.
Oh thats right....most the time it appears that is how the far majority act,
Some of us are sick of seeing it...the same post reworded over and over and over. We are also sick of being called shill/fanboi/ADD/etc cause we dont agree with sandbox play,
Not that hearing the same thing repeated time and again wasnt enough, now we are getting hit with "guilt trips" cause we dont wanna support sandbox games. Or better yet....want them to include sandbox in our directed content games to give these sandbox folks access to all games coming out.
Suuuuuure thing.
I wouldnt want my gaming style altered much/any to accomodate the small faction of "sandboxers" as it is. Then when you consider there will be folks from this MMORPG.com crowd there as well makes it an even easier call for me.
That call is to keep "sandbox" games away from directed content if I have my say. The tradeskillers can stay on unemployment...or come hunt dragons/storm space stations/whatever just like the majority of gamers.
There is enough conforming to the minority in the real world...sure as hell dont need it in gaming AFAIAC....especially when the styles dont mix in the first place. And it isnt just the game styles...IMO the folks that play such styles really arent compatible either...as demonstrated on these forums daily,
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Man I heard about htis awesome super real virtual world the other day, its called TPS Onine. Its even got fax machines that sometimes work and sometime don't. Oh man the detail is amazing. The cubicles look so real.
Guilt trip much?
"Gamers' dont wanna go along with Uncle Owen play eh? I wonder why that is?
Could it be cause we want stuff to do? Or perhaps making gaming a whole "other life" is just taking it a bit far for us. We play to have fun...not throw our money away to sim a second job. Can get paid at your first job if that is what you wanna do all the time(work that is).
I am glad deciding what panties you wanna put on Uncle Owen, while he tills his fields, are enough for ya in a game.
I need more out of my gaming exp, and it appears the majority of gamers do as well.
Like it says in one of PnP books I once saw....there is no correct way...be it role-play or roll-play...go with what folks enjoy.
And it looks to me like roll-play is where it is at for MMO play. Rather than always throwing tantrums, it would be nice if you guys would either enjoy what is being produced. And if not, then it is YOU that needs to move along to another genre methinks.
The majority/money talks to gaming companies...not a niche crowd that just wont ease up, and constantly demands others either join them...or insults them. For being so "mature" as they claim, it is rather childish tactics they employ IMO.
Cause the games that all you so called types like to play dont do that well....2008 was proof of it.
If you like directed content play single player games perhaps? Bad enough most MMOs suck now , even though they make them for your kind of playstyle but the problem is most of you dont stick with a MMO for very long you , play for a couple of months , pack up and go off to taint another MMO in development with your "Casual , mass appeal, we are more important rehetorhic ..." and the cycle continues , maybe it isnt the games , maybe its the type of players we have in MMOs now, lazy, gimme gimme gimme, we want have fun and damn everyone else wanting a challenge, we want easy , simple , and accesible , 2 months later your crying and whining cause you have nothing to do.......
The problem is everyone has a different threshold and criteria for what is "immersion breaking".
For example, some people whine and complain about zone transitions. Oh, if I have to zone it breaks my immersion, i want a seamless world, that's more immersive, blah, blah, blah.
Zoning doesn't break my immersion at all. If it helps wiith lag, then I'll zone no problem.
I agree completely. WAR turned out to be such a disappointment because it moved further away from the virtual world model and was so much less so than DAOC provided.
As to the sandbox/virtual world haters, they don't understand what they're missing, so their posts can be ignored in the context of this discussion.
Most of the recent MMO's released today fail to reach the lofty sub numbers they set out to achieve. While there are many contributing factors, the lack of a decent virtual world is certainly a major contributor as to why I don't hang around long in them, and I suspect the same is true for some others.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thats the thing I like Hack-N-Slash but for that I load up Diablo or any of it's clone type games.
I enjoy action RPG, there for play Fallout 3 or Mass Effect
I enjoy themeparks thats why I enjoy games like Cod4 or Cod/WaW
I enjoy strategy, for that I load up one of the RTS games I have.
MMORPG offered what those games didn't offer, or in some cases it offered everything that those other games offered and then some.
Man.......... I can even enjoy Peggles
I agree. The "virtual world" feature was one of the unique hooks that the genre had. With out that, there's very little motivation for me to play MMORPGs when there are better quality single player and multiplayer games out there. Sport PvP is MUCH better in FPS and immersion is MUCH better in single player RPGs.
Themepark MMOs are heading in a whole other direction and that's fine, as long as they don't strangle the rest of the genre in the process. When it comes down to it, the "sandboxers" and the "old school" crowd agree on one thing: they both want that virtual world feel. If some one can deliver that, they WILL have an audience.
100% agree with OP.
That is in no way a problem. In fact it's one of the reasons forums exist so we all can share our different view points/opinions and discus them with each other
I 100% agree OP. My first and favorite MMO was Star Wars Galaxies, and NOTHING has come close to delivering that "living in a virtual world" feeling that that game provided. It was amazing how much more fun it made the game when the ability to feel like you were your character was so fluent.
It absolutely amazes me that this genre has been completely flooded by the single player gamers who come here and demand that MMOs be turned more into single player games. It is the exact opposite of what an MMO should be, and these people are demanding they become it. There is every other genre out there for these people to get their "hack n' slash, gimme now!" cravings yet for some reason they need MMOs to deliver it too? Dumbfounding.
Anyway, I also think the "virtual world" experience encourages other aspects of gaming that some usually wouldn't touch. I don't consider myself a role player in the least bit, yet in SWG I found myself doing things that would be considered "roleplaying" without even thinking about it, because it just came natural with the surrounding enviroment. And even though I'm usually a "hack n' slash" combat oriented person, I found that I really did enjoy things like player run economies, player housing and cities, and crafting. I feel that many people that haven't experience features like these, may assume they don't like them because they aren't that type of player, but would probably find they do enjoy them if they were available.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Maybe my standards are too high but I quit SWG mainly because it did not make me feel that I was "living in a virtual world". The sandbox in SWG was way too limited and artificial. Once you reached a certain point there was no real growth and the best you could do was fake it that you were not spinning in place.
This is probably one of the reasons why I like WoW so much. It is very honest about what it is about and does not pretend to be a fake living virtual world.
If you like directed content play single player games perhaps? Bad enough most MMOs suck now , even though they make them for your kind of playstyle but the problem is most of you dont stick with a MMO for very long you , play for a couple of months , pack up and go off to taint another MMO in development with your "Casual , mass appeal, we are more important rehetorhic ..." and the cycle continues , maybe it isnt the games , maybe its the type of players we have in MMOs now, lazy, gimme gimme gimme, we want have fun and damn everyone else wanting a challenge, we want easy , simple , and accesible , 2 months later your crying and whining cause you have nothing to do.......
Um unless you missed the news pal, it isnt gamers like myself that need to find a game to play.
That, for the totally oblivious(which you appear to be by your post), would be the sandbox crowd. As in "YOU NEED TO FIND A GAME TO PLAY IN THE FIRST PLACE".
I havent found a game I like to replace EQ yet as my game to play. So dont put things like AoC on me as "my" game. And it sure didnt fail due to being a PVE, or content laden world.
AoC- supposed to be a PvP crowd game. It isnt even about the PVE content which I favor. I quit buying big name MMOs cause sick of wasting my money. So I sat out this one. Great call on my part. I dont mind paying if I decide to play a few months. It is hard though when a game launches without content, and lacking polish as the various msg brds indicated.
WAR- I am unsure if is PvP, but pretty sure this one had problems as well.
Tabula Rasa-Hold on I am still laughing. OK...hit the forums...I didnt play so I couldnt tell ya about the tons of problems with this one.
Come to think of it, I dont remember any game since WOW that has brought both polish and content to the playing field. Oh wait...I forgot...LoTRO did just that. Kind of strange it has good numbers, and was just voted game of the year. /sarcasm off
Bottom line....games like AoC knew they had only one chance to get it right at launch...and they didnt. That they didnt live up to expectations doesnt surprise me in the least.
Just cause folks may screw it up, doesnt factor in the debate of what does better gaming wise(DIrected content or sandbox).
It is widely accepted that a game that is a PVE -content laden-loot centric-linear progression is going to have the best chance to grab a wide audience in North America than any other specific playstyle. I happen to not only agree with it, I really dont see anything to discount it out there in NA. Someone might say EVE....but I put that more on the PVP crowd.
The only thing that will really enhance PVE is to include PvP as well. That is as long as PvP isnt the focus for class balance. It has been my observation, that devs run into problems when they do balance characters for things like batttlefield play.
What isnt going to enhance the PVE game I listed is Uncle Owen. Instead he is going to distract PVE folks by needing to funnel them to give Pink-Panty-Owen his content selling gear.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Like I said in my topic, I want both combat and none combat to have fun, besided anyone is a Uncle Owen in most current MMO's, except some known guilds, but overall it's only your imagination or a NPC that is telling your not Uncle Owen but some Hero, I rather be known by the community I play with then be some NPC named hero.....
Like I said in my topic, I want both combat and none combat to have fun, besided anyone is a Uncle Owen in most current MMO's, except some known guilds, but overall it's only your imagination or a NPC that is telling your not Uncle Owen but some Hero, I rather be known by the community I play with then be some NPC named hero.....
Reklaw
Why did you remove my quote of Fireflys post, and then make it appear like I was addressing the OP. The first part of my post wasnt about the OP...instead instead it was commenting about another post in the thread.
Later on in my post I moved towards the idea being originally posted about....having play styles for all. And as I indicated, Roll-players dont want role-play as the primary feature of their MMO.
In laymans terms this means we dont care to give Uncle Owen a job selling us the best items in game. We either wanna loot or quest for it.
Having non-combat roles as a major function in a MMORPG is what "sandbox" is all about. Although in your post you try to hide it as such. YOu claim it doesnt matter if it is sandbox. Hwne you make non-combat viable then you have a sandbox,
Which is just another case of trying to piggy back your game style onto those that dont want that in their gaming exp. Instead content driven folks want the majority of work on content, with tradeskills being a secondary function that doesnt receive much attention.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Wait, does this mean no voice chat? I just love huge Orcs with 15 year-old skinny whiteboy voices.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
SWG was the last MMO I truly enjoyed as well. The game got worse as they made it less of a virtual world and more of some kind of linear system they wanted players to follow because that fruit loop julio torres or whatever his name was talking in his fruity gay lisp about "players want to be luke hehe!"
So lame.
My problem with this is that it was indeed said by Torres, but when remembering the official forums from back then it was something that was complained about allot as many poeple who already left SWG early complained it wasn't Star Warsy enought, Jedi was to hard, there was to much reading, and yes DEVS have said those things aswell, but they only did so cause those on the forums spoke that much about it.
I don't think that I could disagree with the OP more. I already have a life and I don't need a second one. I already have a job and I don't need a second one.
Having said all that..... I think that Yahtzee hit the nail on the head in his review of Farcry 2. A narrative sandbox game needs an overarching goal as well as a huge world to explore or else you lose any sense of accomplishment and stop caring. Now you can have the freedom of deciding how to go about that great big goal, but you still need something to accomplish. This goal need not be epic or anything, but it does need to make sense in the context of your character. Just like real life, our goals often depend on our circumstances.
It's kind of like the design philosophy behind the upcoming Age of Decadence. Or maybe the original Deus EX would be a better example. Everything in the game has to be designed for multiple means of accomplishment while still being open ended enough for players to improvise means that the developers never considered. That's one tall order!
At any rate, just shoving people out into the wild with nary a hint as to what they should, or could, be doing is a sure way to make those of us with jobs move on to something else in a hurry. I don't care if there are games like what the OP mentioned. But for me personally? My life really doesn't suck so bad that I have to escape it completely.