The Problem is the Players

grimfall

Well, not really the players, because they're generally good people, but I think they're forced to ruin the game for others.

I recently came back, and the gameplay is still great, but if you want to quest with other players you run into a problem.  The vast majority of players are playing their 9th alt who are all decked out in the most expensive gear you can buy and have done the dungeon 50 times, so they run through like headless chickens zerging the content.

Meanwhile as a new player you're like "Well, it would have been cool if I had done something, but well there's my experience message, so I guess we're done".

Even if you form a "Slow and Steady Group" the players will behave for about five minutes, until one of them runs ahead of the group and then all of a sudden it's like herding cats again, they all run off.  I am not sure if it's because they're bored, or because they think that's what I really want and don't know, or what I suspect is that they're trying to prove how great at the game they are, but it really does ruin the experience for the other players.

I've thought about it, and I just don't know how to fix it.

There are way too many magical items in the game, and the economy has been broken from day 1, and hasn't been fixed in the ensuing years.  If you play the game 20 hours/week you'll have a max level character in I guess about a month (by comparision I played EQ the same and it took me until the 3rd expansion to reach max level).

My best suggestion would be to make a newbie server, and only allow one character per account on it.  Eliminate the mailbox system, and lower the drop frequency of magical items.

Right now, new players are chased away by the veteran players - not intentionally or spitefully, they're just oblivious.

Effect

This was the problem I encountered when trying to play the game again. When I do find groups it's as you said a rush or zerg through the content. Players have done things so many times it's as if they are just going through the motions. When I first played at launch people would take time to talk either in chat or voice. Gather up everyone and then at the very least talk, especially if you said you were just starting. Now it's invite, enter quest, and rush to the end. While it's nice to get experience it's boring since you don't get to do anything usually.

I figured I'd try the outdoor areas but they are just plain boring. DDO is one of the few games where I want to group. Same for LOTRO. However it isn't rewarding or fun as it should be either due to setup or players. I don't think the players are doing it with any negative intent but it's just something that takes place in the game.

Sure people say you should join a guild but it's hard if you don't have time to get to know other players. Even then it's the same thing at times and I don't feel comfortable asking guild mates to constantly slow down. I know they'll get sick of it and not be willing to group again because they want to get things done so they can move on to other things.

Zoobi

Originally posted by grimfall



I've thought about it, and I just don't know how to fix it.
 

You can fix this by having a prearranged group. Either of RL friends (just like the tabletop!) or ingame buddies. That was the only solution I could come up with.

Sovrath

I noticed this as well. One of the reasons that I mostly soloed becasue I wanted to actually experience the content.

The few times that I grouped I really didn't know what was going on as we just ran through the dungeons at breakneck speed. There were exceptions but the rules seemed to be players just blazing through everything.

we3ster

As much as I love the game, this is DDO's biggest weakness for me. Too much rushing, it puts new players off too much.

The root cause for me is that all dungeons bar the raids are designed for a group of 4 but the game allows groups of 6 to complete them, which is usually overkill.

I'd like to see xp awarded at 100% for a group of 4 and it then decline, say 10% for each player over, therefore, a group of 6 would earn 80%.

DDO's dungeons are amazing and you can miss an awful lot when being dragged round by a zerging group.

Aganazer

Originally posted by we3ster


I'd like to see xp awarded at 100% for a group of 4 and it then decline, say 10% for each player over, therefore, a group of 6 would earn 80%.

While I don't like penalties, doing this would at least encourage larger groups to increase the difficulty.

I only started a week ago, but already in our small group we are starting to zerg content to some extent which can't be as fun for a new player we are bringing along. All we need is incentives to keep the group together playing smart rather than fast.

Difficulty is a good incentive. A little bit of automatic dungeon scaling like City of Heroes might help some in this regard.

Random secrets and traps would make a huge difference! This one feature could add a LOT to the replayability of the content. They already randomize rare encounters and even some of the main objectives, why not the traps and secrets?

Having enough for each class to do would help. Even on new content a rogue seems to have their hands full the whole trip, while other classes are mostly just waiting for the next fight. Some kind of crafting-lite might give other classes something to do... Sharpening weapons, studying books, fletching some arrows, etc. I don't know how effective this would be considering how well its worked in other games.

Terminus-Est

This was basically why I left the game.

It could be reasonably easily overcome by randomizing dungeons, locations of traps and mobs, etc.

Ionselon

This is also the reason I quit playing DDO.  I guess that I'm one of those odd people who like to read what the NPCs say.  As it was, IF I was lucky enough to find a group, they went so fast that it was all that I could do just to keep up, much less do anything.

I sure hope that Turbine can fix this.  I really like DDO and would play it again if it were better paced.

Ion

almerel

I have noticed some people adding "no zerging" to their LFG/LFM options.  I would join a team like that since I recently came back and am relearning again.

mindspat

I agree about this being a problem for people who like to sit back and experiance the pure dungeon crawl aspects of the game whlie functioning as a tight nit party.  There's a few work arounds for this, one would be to be in a guild of like minded players and this might take a while to identify the proper place for yourself, the other option is to start your own quests sugessting more of an RPG-ish approach by requesting each member bring 1 hireling which might help to create a more uniform experiance. 

Zerging - yes, I do it too and I also make it clear when it's unadvisable 'cs of newer players being in the party or what-not.  Don't hesitate to speak up when forming a group that it's going to be no zerging.  If someone refuses to listen and is disruptive to your experiance I've found that politlely asking someone to leave for such things is easier to deal with then letting them ruin it for you. 

Most of the community is mature enough to respect each other's wishes, but that doesn't mean there aren't jerks online.

You'll want to keep an eye on DDO's.  The next module should be coming out soon.  

Bill_Pardy

*Disclamer: I am not Parvo  *

 

Have you considered a permadeath guild? I've been enjoying DDO permadeath style since day one, I would have quit the game a few months in without it.  You've really got nothing to lose by trying it. If you play for a bit and the character dies you can say 'that was great, i'll re-roll and try again' or 'ehh, not for me' and take the character on to normal play outside of the guild.

 

The link in my signature takes you to the DDO compendium page for Permadeath guilds with links to their websites and rules.  From the OP's posts though I think Mortal Voyage or Valhalla would be the best fit.

Effect

---

Originally posted by Bill_Pardy
*Disclamer: I am not Parvo  *
 
Have you considered a permadeath guild? I've been enjoying DDO permadeath style since day one, I would have quit the game a few months in without it.  You've really got nothing to lose by trying it. If you play for a bit and the character dies you can say 'that was great, i'll re-roll and try again' or 'ehh, not for me' and take the character on to normal play outside of the guild.
 
The link in my signature takes you to the DDO compendium page for Permadeath guilds with links to their websites and rules.  From the OP's posts though I think Mortal Voyage or Valhalla would be the best fit.

---

A permadeath guild won't solve this problem. Going permadeath is a waste anyway. One lag spike and you lose a months of work not to any fault of your own or do to any type of rushing.

spinach8puff

Why don't all of the people who don't want zerg rush groups roll on the same server and group up? I'm sure there are lots of other people who are upset about the same thing on the DDO Forums so you could just form a whole guild of like minded people.

Bill_Pardy

If you think of playing DDO as work then yes, Permadeath is definitely a waste of time. But you may be able to find some non-pd dungeon crawling guilds.

oronisi

Originally posted by Zoobi

Originally posted by grimfall



I've thought about it, and I just don't know how to fix it.
 

You can fix this by having a prearranged group. Either of RL friends (just like the tabletop!) or ingame buddies. That was the only solution I could come up with.

 

The real solution is the game itself.  It would need some major changes to accomodate new users.  The problem is that it's a small quest-based game packaged as an MMO.  Then they tossed on some traditional MMO grinds to keep people playing.  So you have people spending 5+ hours a day on a game that only has content for a normal singleplayer game.

In simpler terms:  The hardcores / vets have nothing better to do than pimp out their capped chars and make new chars with tons of gear and advantages.

For DDO to succeed and welcome new gamers, it would need more things to do and more variability...and the combat needs less focus on min-maxxing for success.  Basically, don't hold your breath.  If you are playing it, keep enjoying it.  If you are new to it and have friends that will play with you, have fun.  If you are a new guy trying to get into an MMO, this one is probably not for you.

Kistilan

Another solution to the Zergtastic group of any player with experience is to utilize the DDO Forums.

There are 2 Forum Areas that will likely be beneficial to you.  One is utilizing the New Player Forum.  The other is The Guild Matchup Forum.   There is also a forum for Player Quest Coordination.  Posting in these locations can generally get you a start on a new player static group where you all have no idea about the majority of the quests you're on and can all run together at a slow pace.  Lastly, the Newbie Harbor forum area can help you locate brand new players!

ssnautilus

Yes. People put No zerg/No rushing notes in LFG - also put that in your player notes.

There is a non-zerg guild I knew a while back, I believe it was called Nice and Slow (or something). Nice people too. Try looking them up.

Sarr

I'm sure there's more and more non-rushers visible. I play on DDO EU on Keeper. But even better thing, is that rushers and non-rushers seem to coexist now. Or at least it's better than before.

People just put into LFGs what they seek. When there was less newcomers, it was more obvious that most probably you'll be in the rush group. But now people better know what they want. Many no-rush LFGs lately.
And not only that. In last two days I played with people who asked me if I did specific quest before, or not. I did, so we went normally (non-rush, doing everything, even optional). Then more people came, and we "voted" that we'd let a newcomer lead the group. So that she won't miss anything, won't get lost and will have a great fun. Probably half of the group was veterans (only half!) and we had really great fun. Much better than any 'skip' run, imho.

The other day I was in a group where rusher was in, and the group (not flagged as non-rush on LFG) said they won't run like mad. So he accepted to play normally, after a while of discussion.

For me - no problem with rushing groups. I can easily find people who like to discover, or at least adventure for fun, not only xp. And I remember that in the summer it was much, much worse.

AgtSmith

Originally posted by oronisi 


 
The real solution is the game itself.  It would need some major changes to accomodate new users.  The problem is that it's a small quest-based game packaged as an MMO.  Then they tossed on some traditional MMO grinds to keep people playing.  So you have people spending 5+ hours a day on a game that only has content for a normal singleplayer game.

 

Yep.  DDO represents the single worst base design in 'MMO", if you can even call it that, history - static and limited content intended (required even) to be done over and over.

todeswulf

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by oronisi 


 
The real solution is the game itself.  It would need some major changes to accomodate new users.  The problem is that it's a small quest-based game packaged as an MMO.  Then they tossed on some traditional MMO grinds to keep people playing.  So you have people spending 5+ hours a day on a game that only has content for a normal singleplayer game.

 

Yep.  DDO represents the single worst base design in 'MMO", if you can even call it that, history - static and limited content intended (required even) to be done over and over.

 

You can Blame Ken Troop for that..he is currently at Wizards of the Coast screwing up 4th edition and the D&D Virtual Game Table which is basically vaporware thanks to him.

Sarr

---

Originally posted by AgtSmith
Originally posted by oronisi  
The real solution is the game itself.  It would need some major changes to accomodate new users.  The problem is that it's a small quest-based game packaged as an MMO.  Then they tossed on some traditional MMO grinds to keep people playing.  So you have people spending 5+ hours a day on a game that only has content for a normal singleplayer game.

 
Yep.  DDO represents the single worst base design in 'MMO", if you can even call it that, history - static and limited content intended (required even) to be done over and over.

---

What you say is only your opinion. I don't think the design is bad. I played most major MMOs out there and many smaller ones. And also left WoW for good, it's just totally boring for me in comparison with DDO.

So, for me you're wrong. More so, DDO is now receiving a boom of new population. Many new players find their home in DDO after Mod 8 with NPE. And Module 9 is around the corner too. As well as 3rd anniversary.

dhayes68

Originally posted by grimfall


Well, not really the players, because they're generally good people, but I think they're forced to ruin the game for others.

 

Ok, your first sentence completely negates the title of your post.   If the game's dynamic puts players in that situation then the problem is the game.

I haven't really played since launch (came back for a free week a few months ago) and the problem as it seemed to me then is that DDO is not an MMO as much as it's a multiplayer game.

moorewr

I'm amazed at how much people get hung up on grouping.. really, I can count on one hand the groups that ruined the fun for me.. and once you have been on you start seeing names and guilds you like.. and join one of them.. and off you go...

I see nothing wrong with grouping in DDO.. I'm fine with the solo options they've added too.

Sarr

---

Originally posted by dhayes68
Originally posted by grimfall Well, not really the players, because they're generally good people, but I think they're forced to ruin the game for others.

 
Ok, your first sentence completely negates the title of your post.   If the game's dynamic puts players in that situation then the problem is the game.
I haven't really played since launch (came back for a free week a few months ago) and the problem as it seemed to me then is that DDO is not an MMO as much as it's a multiplayer game.

---

Again I disagree. DDO is for me more MMORPG game than most others, especially WoW. WoW isn't for me much of a RPG mmo, it has that straight arcade style and BattleNet competition called PVP.
In WoW and it's clones, you don't need much thinking, if any at all. But DDO is different, has logical puzzles, traps to find. You must be cautious and use tactics, play in teams.

It's just the D&D Pen and Paper style of MMORPG. Not WoWish, which is only most popular to date, not even the first (check Ultima Online). So if an MMORPG game like DDO isn't even close to WoW experience, it doesn't mean it's not Massive, not Multi, not Onlie and especially not Roleplaying.
If we talk about roleplaying, this is probably the best possible environment to date. Private quests are possible, so no "lolz, omgz, noob, wtfs" from random players will spoil your RPG experience.

We have numerous guilds with many people, use built-in voice chat, play roles or develop characters to the point no other MMORPG can offer. At least now. DDO is not your simple "faceroll" game, like players of WoW describe their play style themselves sometimes.

I'm an MMO game veteran, with roots in text MUDs and Ultima Online. And DDO for me is real MMORPG. For me, it is even closer to the Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game definition than WoW. It's just different and not for everyone. That's for sure .

mindspat

Originally posted by Effect
 
A permadeath guild won't solve this problem. Going permadeath is a waste anyway. One lag spike and you lose a months of work not to any fault of your own or do to any type of rushing.

That's like saying Life is a waste since an asteroid could crash into the planet or the Sun could go supernova at any time.

 

I've only experianced lag bad enough to cause party wipes on one occasion and that was about a year ago.  I made a post here griping about it although it's rarely an issue.  If you're playing perma death and you die because of a lag spike the chances are you were going to die regardless.  Only a person who's played PD would even comprehend this. 

 

Rokurgepta

Originally posted by mindspat

Originally posted by Effect
 
A permadeath guild won't solve this problem. Going permadeath is a waste anyway. One lag spike and you lose a months of work not to any fault of your own or do to any type of rushing.

That's like saying Life is a waste since an asteroid could crash into the planet or the Sun could go supernova at any time.

 

I've only experianced lag bad enough to cause party wipes on one occasion and that was about a year ago.  I made a post here griping about it although it's rarely an issue.  If you're playing perma death and you die because of a lag spike the chances are you were going to die regardless.  Only a person who's played PD would even comprehend this. 

 

Have you run the shroud lately? Lag in there has been bad enough the last couple of weeks to cause a few wipes and or multiple deaths. Now for the most part the game area that a PD is likely to see are pretty much low to no lag even during busy times. But this past weekend had some spots where lag was simply amazingly bad and the only reason no one died was there were no mobs in the area or the mobs had just died.

 

DDO is having some service issues. Might be from the server people they are using, but there is simply no way it is the players. Random people are getting lag and others in the same spot are not and those people have nothing in common as far as ISP or anything else. In one Vale looting run my brother and one other guy hit about a 20 second lag spike at a chest. I was able to loot the chest and then wait for them I could move and fight. My brother lives in the same town as I do and we have the same ISP. The other guy lives in another time zone and does not share the same ISP. I have a hard time believing the problem is on their ends.

I hope they figure it out soon as I am having a great time since coming back.