Korean MMO will never win over Western MMO. To understand why you have to know how they develop MMO in Korea. The Korea MMO market (the China market is currently operate the same however, there are some changes in the China market lately) works very different from the Western MMO market. In the Western MMO market, each game is oftenly consider a major investment. People usually consider more carefully when they pick up a new game and usually stick with their choices for a while after the purchase. The main reason for this is the business model for most big title in the Western MMO market. You have to pay the box price (usually $50) and then pay montly subscription fee afterward (usually $15). In Korea MMO market, they operate on a totally different mode except NCSoft. NCSoft is currently operate more like their counter part in the western world. They do not develop any faster than the western developers. They have about the same development cycle time if not slower. They currently have 3 released MMORPG developed in house (Korean NCSoft). That's Lineage, Lineage II and AION which has just been released in Korea. Do not confuse games have been developed by NCSoft and games developed by studio that has been bought by NCSoft over the years. The rest of Korea is 180 degree different. They operate on what was called "instant noodle" or in a more familiar term "fast food" mode. Korean players do not buy MMORPG games. They do not pay for box price and most games use microtransaction business models. They download and play and then download and play kinda like a rotation. Whenever a new game out, they download it, play it, then move on to the next game. The idea of the market is to push out as many MMO as they can as fast as they can, try to get players to play with new games then move on instead of trying to hold long term customers hence the lack of contents you usually see on these Korean MMOs. They will never be able to create MMOs with the depth of say LOTR Online or WoW. This even apply to NCSoft as well. Just do a quick comparison on the amount of contents of Lineage II when it was released with say LOTR Online when it was released and you can see the different (don't even try to compare with WoW).
It's amazing how much people just assume and then convince themselves they know what they are talking about. The "fast food" restaurant is only describing a part of the market. Games such as Lineage 1, Lineage 2, Ragnarok Online and Maple Story still have tons and tons of players in korea. In fact, Lineage 1 and Lineage 2 still both have nearly 1 million subscribers. There are lots of companies that aren't just pushing out stuff whenever they can.
Saying they will "never" be able to create mmo's with the depth of LOTRO and WoW Is downright ignorant. VERY ignorant. First of all how does a game like Lotro have "Depth"? Because it drowns you in "Go kill XX" quests or "Go find XX" quests? Lineage 2 had a very complicated Castle siege system in place and PVP clan politics was the heart of the game. There is nothing like that in Lotro. Saying Lotro had more content at launch is VERY debetable. While it had more "Go kill XX quests" or "Go talk to XX" quests, Lineage 2 had a much larger world at release than Lotro had. In fact, Aden completely dwarfs middle earth in size.
I'd love to hear your reasoning for "They will never be able to create MMO's with the depth of Lotro and WoW" the fact you used these games as example of mmo depth already gives it away you really don't know a lot about this genre.
Now now, you just did the same mistake you thought I did. You just assume that I don't know what I am talking about based on what you thought you know. When I said they operate on "fast food" mode, I have the statistic numbers to back that up. I can't give those number to you because they cost money. Of course, you can obtain those numbers too from many Korean companies dedicated to do research and sell information. One of them with fairly reasonable price is gametrics.com. Go, spend money and see for your self. Ragnarok Online and Maple Story do not have tons and tons players anymore. Lineage and LIneage II both from NCSoft and like I said in my post above, they are exception because NCSoft is operating very similar to western developers.
If you look at the top 50 most played MMO in Korea over a long period of time (you can buy this kind of information by the way) you can see (with the exception of Lineage, Lineage 2 and WoW Korea) new MMOs comming in fast and furious push old MMO down very quickly. You wouldnt believe how fast they can make MMO - from scratch. Well, not from scratch, they have kind of a production chain much like the automotive production chain to make MMO.
Come back to the "depth" of an MMO. The Lineage II castle siege system is not "complicated". As a matter of fact, at launch (especially Korean launch) the siege system was rather very simple. If you want to know what "depth" I talked about, try to login say LOTR Online when there are no other people but you, run around, visit city, village and then do the same with Lineage II (I would like to say Lineage II C1 but the only place you can find that is a private server) or any Korean other MMO and see what's the different. I spent time playing Korean MMOs more than enough to put out my opinion.
Oh yeah? Well I'll have you know that my hidden numbers, which I paid for ofcourse and thus can't show you, completely disprove your numbers and it's obvious that my source is far more reliabe than your source and.....wait, hold on, whats that noise? I hear something...Oh wait, thats my Bullshit detector that went off when it detected your post.
Ragnarok Online and Maple Story are still widely popular mmorpg's in South Korea, just like Lineage and Lineage 2. There are lots of korean companies putting a lot of time and effort in their games. Is there a group that is constantly looking for the next big thing? Ofcourse there, this is a huge group. But this is no different from the west. Aside from World of Warcraft, all old mmorpg's have small subscribtion numbers. Everquest, Asherons Call, DAOC, Ultima Online, they all have small subscribtion numbers, Meanwhile new mmorpg's such as Age of Conan and Warhammer Online made it to some of the best selling games of this year, and Lotro is also very successful. It really isn't that different in west.
I'm not sure what you're getting at when you talk about "depth". Try to login online in Lotro when there are no other people but you? Well you see, the fact that Lotro is, you know, an MMOPRG, there usually are other people around. There is nothing special about the towns, it the standard mmorpg fare of NPC's giving out quests, skill trainers and shops. When you say "the siege system is not complicated" you're really missing the point.
In game like Lotro and WoW, the way a player experiences the game is very controlled and directed by the game. The game tells the player what to do, it's very clear what you should be doing and when to do it. The game makes it very obvious when you should group up and when you should solo.
Ofcourse there is nothing wrong with that, thats just what set the game apart from a game like Lineage but it also lacks the depth of true social interaction in a virtual world. in a game like Lineage 2, you're not directed by quests. This mean that hunting in spot A is just as profitable as it is in spot B. You can "explore" and "hunt" freely without being being punished for it by not doing quests. This also means that you can group whenever and wherever you like. If you group up in a game such as WoW, you're making it more difficult for yourself as you're now doing content that is designed for solo play with other players,thus slowing down your progress, unless you're playing group specific content such as an instance.
Another example is PVP. Now, World of Warcraft is a faction vs faction pvp where as Lineage 2 is full open PVP. In a game such as WoW, PVP is very controlled. The game decides who your enemy is and encourages or discourages you to attack another player by rewarding you for it, or not rewarding you at all. In a game such as Lineage 2, You kill a player not because the game tells you to, but because of social interaction. There is usuaully a reason why you kill another player...or there is not! it's entirely up to the player.
I'm sure you are aware of the concept of guild drama. You know what happens, guilds get into a clash and bad things happen. Do you know what happens in WoW? A guild will go to the official forums, bitch how much the other guild sucks and put them all on the block list. Do you know what happens in a game like Lineage 2? The guild master will gather the clan together, if possible other clans part of the alliance, and fight the other clan in full pvp warfare. If possible, fight them in castle sieges as well thus taking away part of their control over the world.
Another example, what if you're at a hunting spot and another player is disturbing you? In WoW, there is nothing you can do about it unless that player is of another faction. in Lineage 2, you have the option to attack that player...or not. again, thats up to the player.
It's the depth of social interaction that's only possible in a virtual world thats completely absent in games such as WoW and Lotro. When a person is trying to prove the depth of western mmorpg's, I'd expect them to mention games such as EVE or Ultima Online, but not WoW and Lotro.
I actually pointed you to the site where you can obtain the number, get it or not, it's up to you. If you really want to know the numbers reflect the Korean market, you can get it and see for your self. It is really no use for me to post the number here because you can also question the validity of those numbers just as easily. Like I said, the number are there, available, worth for you to pay the money to obtain them or not, it's up to you.
You said there is no different from the west, you miss the whole point. Of course the order of most played game will be similar. What make the Korean market different is that list change very very quickly. How long do you have you wait for Age of Conan? How long do you have to wait for Dark Fall? New MMOs in Korea come out every month pretty much. So that picture you see, the list you see change monthly. Do you see that happen in the western market? Of course not.
On the "depth" of an MMO, I think you and I talking about 2 different things. Let's bring our point together. What I meant for the "depth" of an MMO in my previous posts, I mainly point out the immersive of the virtual world contents. Western developers tend to pay more attention to make their world lively, more connected and generally give the player the sense of belonging in the world. For example, if you see a house, in an western MMO, you are likely to be able to open door and enter it and see the decoration inside the house and in many cases you can sit in the chair or something similar while in a Korean MMO, these details are usually skipped and deem unnecessary, a house is just like a rock no more. Of course, I am talking in general here. But you probably get the idea.
Now, let's talk about what you consider "depth". You see, my friend, your view of depth does not necessary come from the game contents. It comes from the what usually consider as a player generated type of contents. This type of contents does not attach to any certain game but rather more to the design of the game - more like an archtype. Depends on the type of an MMO, you will see a different in the kind of social interaction. You see, a PvE, more controlled game does not lack of social interaction, far from it. It come in a different form, perhaps you don't see it, but it's there. WoW is a little difficult to see this type of social interaction, let's me give you a different example, Everquest. This is where you can see a shining example of a community pushed together by the hash environment of the game. While people certainly don't like force grouping, unforgiving death penalty; but the truth is, those make people work together, depends on each other and form a wonderful community where people really understand each other, the good side and the bad side. Many many best friends in real life come from this virtual social interaction.
Now, come back to what you have describe as the depth of social interaction in Lineage II. It's not Lineage II the game it self build this type of social interaction. It's the archtype design of the game. Any open PvP game could develop the very same social interaction you described. It's not unique to Lineage II. Like you have mentioned, EVE have this type of social interaction, corporation control and very heavy player generated contents. Ultima Online before Trammel also have this. Shadow Bane has this type of social interaction and it's much more "depth" than Lineage II ever do. Oh, Shadow Bane, while it has so much technical difficulty which ultimately killed the game, has a much superior PvP system and social structure design than Lineage II ever has. The player social interaction and guild politics were incredibly intensed. Just a few example to let you see that the type of social interaction you mentioned was not comming from Lineage II the game or by NCSoft efforts. It is not Lineage II has more depth in the social interaction, it's the open PvP environment of it usually generates that type of social interaction. Also, WoW or LOTRO do not completely lack of social interaction, it just come in a different form and you just chose to not acknowledge it.
Anybody can call "well I have paid for numbers". If you're not willing to post the numbers and prove they are real, than your argument is irrelevant.
I'm not missing the whole point, in fact it's you who clearly misses the whole point. People in the west are just as likely to jump to the next game as eastern gamers do, the speed of development - release is completely irrelevant. Your whole argument that korean games will never be as good because they rush it to release asap is far from reality. We can clearly see the work and effort that goes into games such as TERA and Blade & Soul. NCsoft doesn't do things differently and is just a silly excuse made up by you as it doesn't support your argument.
What you describe isn't depth at all.It's attention to detail, but definitly not depth. Would adding paintings to the walls in pac man or pong give it any more depth? Ofcourse not, because it's all eye candy, nothing more. It really doesn't affect the gameplay or the way you play the game in any way at all.
To move on, I don't mean to argue games like WoW have social interaction nor do I want to imply that social interaction is limited to pvp, far from it. What i'm talking about is the way that social interaction is handled and the scale of that interaction. in games such as WoW (And when I say WoW I also mean Lotro), your social interactions are much more controlled and the scale is limited. The game decides when its best to group and when its best to solo. If you do solo content in a group, you will be punished for it and you can' t even do group based content when going solo. The game decides where you will be killing monsters and what kind of monsters you will be killing. The game encourages you to either take that objective solo or group depending on the situation and punishes you for the other. When the game encourages you to group or raid (such as when you come across an instanced dungeon) then ofcourse the game becomes a more social experience. but the thing with Lineage 2 is that you have the choice to tackle nearly all the content of the game alone or in a group without getting punished for it. The fact that it uses "leveling spots" instead of quest based content means that players interact with each other a lot more, be it through PVP or PVE.
Saying "Well WoW is a bit to difficult so I'll use Everquest instead" is something i find pretty funny as Everquest's old skool pve content is somewhat different from WoW's. The game didn't direct you as much as WoW does.
The reason why those things happen is because the game offers players the possibility to have such interaction. Thats also the main difference between World of Warcraft/Lotro and Lineage 2. World of Warcraft gives the players an experience. Lineage 2 simply offers content but leaves it up to the players to use that content. I for one never claimed that Lineage 2 is unique in this regard, I never said Lineage 2 is the only one who does this. WoW and Lotro aren't the only ones in their controlled environment either. What I am describing is what sets games such as Lineage 2 apart from games such as WoW and why saying that a game like Lineage 2 has less debt than a Lotro is silly.
It isn't as simple as just slapping on open PVP. Adding open PVP to a game such as WoW or Lotro would not lead to the same experience as Lineage 2, or Ultima Online.
Also, Shadowbane wasn't better than Lineage 2. It's poor combat system, poor world design and lack of "leveling spots" killed the social interaction in it. It was little more than an mmo version of Battlefield.
What turns me off about Korean MMO's are the horrendous grind they offer the player base. Its bad enough killing 10,000 rats in Westerrn MMO's, Korean MMO's require 100,000 rats.
Anybody can call "well I have paid for numbers". If you're not willing to post the numbers and prove they are real, than your argument is irrelevant.
I'm not missing the whole point, in fact it's you who clearly misses the whole point. People in the west are just as likely to jump to the next game as eastern gamers do, the speed of development - release is completely irrelevant. Your whole argument that korean games will never be as good because they rush it to release asap is far from reality. We can clearly see the work and effort that goes into games such as TERA and Blade & Soul. NCsoft doesn't do things differently and is just a silly excuse made up by you as it doesn't support your argument. What you describe isn't depth at all.It's attention to detail, but definitly not depth. Would adding paintings to the walls in pac man or pong give it any more depth? Ofcourse not, because it's all eye candy, nothing more. It really doesn't affect the gameplay or the way you play the game in any way at all.
To move on, I don't mean to argue games like WoW have social interaction nor do I want to imply that social interaction is limited to pvp, far from it. What i'm talking about is the way that social interaction is handled and the scale of that interaction. in games such as WoW (And when I say WoW I also mean Lotro), your social interactions are much more controlled and the scale is limited. The game decides when its best to group and when its best to solo. If you do solo content in a group, you will be punished for it and you can' t even do group based content when going solo. The game decides where you will be killing monsters and what kind of monsters you will be killing. The game encourages you to either take that objective solo or group depending on the situation and punishes you for the other. When the game encourages you to group or raid (such as when you come across an instanced dungeon) then ofcourse the game becomes a more social experience. but the thing with Lineage 2 is that you have the choice to tackle nearly all the content of the game alone or in a group without getting punished for it. The fact that it uses "leveling spots" instead of quest based content means that players interact with each other a lot more, be it through PVP or PVE.
Saying "Well WoW is a bit to difficult so I'll use Everquest instead" is something i find pretty funny as Everquest's old skool pve content is somewhat different from WoW's. The game didn't direct you as much as WoW does. The reason why those things happen is because the game offers players the possibility to have such interaction. Thats also the main difference between World of Warcraft/Lotro and Lineage 2. World of Warcraft gives the players an experience. Lineage 2 simply offers content but leaves it up to the players to use that content. I for one never claimed that Lineage 2 is unique in this regard, I never said Lineage 2 is the only one who does this. WoW and Lotro aren't the only ones in their controlled environment either. What I am describing is what sets games such as Lineage 2 apart from games such as WoW and why saying that a game like Lineage 2 has less debt than a Lotro is silly.
It isn't as simple as just slapping on open PVP. Adding open PVP to a game such as WoW or Lotro would not lead to the same experience as Lineage 2, or Ultima Online. Also, Shadowbane wasn't better than Lineage 2. It's poor combat system, poor world design and lack of "leveling spots" killed the social interaction in it. It was little more than an mmo version of Battlefield.
Yes, anybody can call "I have paid numbers" but not every body can point you to the source of those numbers so you can get the numbers if you want. You see, because of the restrain of paid contents and membership it is impossible to openly prove the validity of the numbers. The only thing I can do is show you where you can obtain those numbers. Argue more on this is kinda pointless.
And yes, you are still missing the point. Yes, the western players are just as likely to jump to the next game as the eastern players but the western industry does not operate that way. Western developers usually take a lot more time to develop their game and put a lot more resource and efforts to generate game contents at release as they are generally get criticized much more heavily for missing contents. Players of western MMO usually expect a lot more game contents at release.
No, what I described is not just attention to detail. It's the ability to interact with the virtual world, it's the immersive of the virtual world. And to a certain degree, attention to detail is a part of it. It definitely affect the game play and the way you play the game as it open up and give tools for a very important player generate contents, the role playing contents. Most current MMOs are MMORPGs aren't they? It allows activities such as a coupld of friends sit in a bar and get drunk. Also, the virtual world in western MMO usually connect and represent the history, the lore, the events of the game much better, closer. Of course, I do know that there is Korean game does this for example Maginobi. However, we are talking in a much broader view here and we can defenitely say, in general, a western MMO virtual world give player a lot more choices, activities, interaction and immersive; in other word, closer to the real world than, in general, a Korean MMO virual world. That's what I called a depth of a virtual world.
When you talking about WoW put more control over what you can and what you can't do, I think you are just heavily bias. The game decides what kind of monsters you will be killing and where you will be killing monsters, yes, but all games do this even Lineage II. Isn't "leveling spot" a prime example for this? And in WoW, you also do have a choice to group or to solo. When you group and doing solo contents you will not get as much experience from kills but you could complete quests faster. The game does not punish you. Of course, the contents designed for group cannot be accomplished solo. You are telling me that there are no encounters in Lineage II required group? No game has perfect balance between group contents and solo contents. There will always be cases where solo is more efficient and cases where group is more efficient. This is also true in Lineage II and if you are telling me for all Lineage II contents you can do them solo just as efficient as group and vice versa, you are lying.
I think you are confused between what the game allows you to do and what contents the game offers to players. Offer a castle for players to siege, that's contents, putting everyone on the same leveling spot, allow kill stealing on top of an open PvP environment is not contents. And on top of that, the depth of that content. With this I meant the connection of that contents to the virtual world. I will give an example, when you participate in a contents such as an instance in WoW, there will be rather large history and lore of that instance intertwine with the history and lore of the virtual world (Azeroth). It gives the content, the instance, the encounter, the boss a lot more meaning, a lot more depth I would say. In this aspect, Lineage II (especially at launch) and Korean game in general fall short, very short. I also want to say that WoW and other western MMO do allow activities and leave them up to the player to take advantage of them (I avoide to use the word contents). They are usually fall into fluffs catagory and usually does not offer big reward. Many players tend to ignore them. It does not mean that the game does not have that kind of activities. Let me give you an example: the fight in South Shore and Tarent Mill before battleground is one.
The social interaction and the guild politics does come from open PvP environment. Tell me an open PvP game that does not spark this kind of interaction? The root of that interaction and politics is players conflict and the open PvP environment give player the mean to resolve the conflict thus lead to that very special social interaction and guild politics. And no, the combat system in Shadow Bane is not poor, it was ruined by the technical difficulties but not the combat system it self. Tell me what part of the combat system you think is poor? And also no, it does not lack of "leveling spots" far from it. Leveling spots in Shadow Bane are the big part of territory control. You plan your tree and build your fortress near a good "leveling spot" to claim and control that "leveling spot" and giving even more meaning to guild politics.
You obviously bias but not toward the Korean MMO games in general, just toward NCSoft games Lineage II, Blade&Soul and to a certain degree TERA (which used the code base of the old Lineage III project). If you step back and look at the the Korean MMO industry as a whole, you will see the distinction. And the statement Korean MMO win over Western MMO also need to be looked at at the whole picture point of view. Korean MMO win over in Korea, yes, of course, but in the western world, not really. Even in Korea, WoW Korean has the subscription almost equal to both Lineage subscription and Lineage II subscription added together. Who's winning?
Anybody can call "well I have paid for numbers". If you're not willing to post the numbers and prove they are real, than your argument is irrelevant.
I'm not missing the whole point, in fact it's you who clearly misses the whole point. People in the west are just as likely to jump to the next game as eastern gamers do, the speed of development - release is completely irrelevant. Your whole argument that korean games will never be as good because they rush it to release asap is far from reality. We can clearly see the work and effort that goes into games such as TERA and Blade & Soul. NCsoft doesn't do things differently and is just a silly excuse made up by you as it doesn't support your argument. What you describe isn't depth at all.It's attention to detail, but definitly not depth. Would adding paintings to the walls in pac man or pong give it any more depth? Ofcourse not, because it's all eye candy, nothing more. It really doesn't affect the gameplay or the way you play the game in any way at all.
To move on, I don't mean to argue games like WoW have social interaction nor do I want to imply that social interaction is limited to pvp, far from it. What i'm talking about is the way that social interaction is handled and the scale of that interaction. in games such as WoW (And when I say WoW I also mean Lotro), your social interactions are much more controlled and the scale is limited. The game decides when its best to group and when its best to solo. If you do solo content in a group, you will be punished for it and you can' t even do group based content when going solo. The game decides where you will be killing monsters and what kind of monsters you will be killing. The game encourages you to either take that objective solo or group depending on the situation and punishes you for the other. When the game encourages you to group or raid (such as when you come across an instanced dungeon) then ofcourse the game becomes a more social experience. but the thing with Lineage 2 is that you have the choice to tackle nearly all the content of the game alone or in a group without getting punished for it. The fact that it uses "leveling spots" instead of quest based content means that players interact with each other a lot more, be it through PVP or PVE.
Saying "Well WoW is a bit to difficult so I'll use Everquest instead" is something i find pretty funny as Everquest's old skool pve content is somewhat different from WoW's. The game didn't direct you as much as WoW does. The reason why those things happen is because the game offers players the possibility to have such interaction. Thats also the main difference between World of Warcraft/Lotro and Lineage 2. World of Warcraft gives the players an experience. Lineage 2 simply offers content but leaves it up to the players to use that content. I for one never claimed that Lineage 2 is unique in this regard, I never said Lineage 2 is the only one who does this. WoW and Lotro aren't the only ones in their controlled environment either. What I am describing is what sets games such as Lineage 2 apart from games such as WoW and why saying that a game like Lineage 2 has less debt than a Lotro is silly.
It isn't as simple as just slapping on open PVP. Adding open PVP to a game such as WoW or Lotro would not lead to the same experience as Lineage 2, or Ultima Online. Also, Shadowbane wasn't better than Lineage 2. It's poor combat system, poor world design and lack of "leveling spots" killed the social interaction in it. It was little more than an mmo version of Battlefield.
Yes, anybody can call "I have paid numbers" but not every body can point you to the source of those numbers so you can get the numbers if you want. You see, because of the restrain of paid contents and membership it is impossible to openly prove the validity of the numbers. The only thing I can do is show you where you can obtain those numbers. Argue more on this is kinda pointless.
And yes, you are still missing the point. Yes, the western players are just as likely to jump to the next game as the eastern players but the western industry does not operate that way. Western developers usually take a lot more time to develop their game and put a lot more resource and efforts to generate game contents at release as they are generally get criticized much more heavily for missing contents. Players of western MMO usually expect a lot more game contents at release.
No, what I described is not just attention to detail. It's the ability to interact with the virtual world, it's the immersive of the virtual world. And to a certain degree, attention to detail is a part of it. It definitely affect the game play and the way you play the game as it open up and give tools for a very important player generate contents, the role playing contents. Most current MMOs are MMORPGs aren't they? It allows activities such as a coupld of friends sit in a bar and get drunk. Also, the virtual world in western MMO usually connect and represent the history, the lore, the events of the game much better, closer. Of course, I do know that there is Korean game does this for example Maginobi. However, we are talking in a much broader view here and we can defenitely say, in general, a western MMO virtual world give player a lot more choices, activities, interaction and immersive; in other word, closer to the real world than, in general, a Korean MMO virual world. That's what I called a depth of a virtual world.
When you talking about WoW put more control over what you can and what you can't do, I think you are just heavily bias. The game decides what kind of monsters you will be killing and where you will be killing monsters, yes, but all games do this even Lineage II. Isn't "leveling spot" a prime example for this? And in WoW, you also do have a choice to group or to solo. When you group and doing solo contents you will not get as much experience from kills but you could complete quests faster. The game does not punish you. Of course, the contents designed for group cannot be accomplished solo. You are telling me that there are no encounters in Lineage II required group? No game has perfect balance between group contents and solo contents. There will always be cases where solo is more efficient and cases where group is more efficient. This is also true in Lineage II and if you are telling me for all Lineage II contents you can do them solo just as efficient as group and vice versa, you are lying.
I think you are confused between what the game allows you to do and what contents the game offers to players. Offer a castle for players to siege, that's contents, putting everyone on the same leveling spot, allow kill stealing on top of an open PvP environment is not contents. And on top of that, the depth of that content. With this I meant the connection of that contents to the virtual world. I will give an example, when you participate in a contents such as an instance in WoW, there will be rather large history and lore of that instance intertwine with the history and lore of the virtual world (Azeroth). It gives the content, the instance, the encounter, the boss a lot more meaning, a lot more depth I would say. In this aspect, Lineage II (especially at launch) and Korean game in general fall short, very short. I also want to say that WoW and other western MMO do allow activities and leave them up to the player to take advantage of them (I avoide to use the word contents). They are usually fall into fluffs catagory and usually does not offer big reward. Many players tend to ignore them. It does not mean that the game does not have that kind of activities. Let me give you an example: the fight in South Shore and Tarent Mill before battleground is one.
The social interaction and the guild politics does come from open PvP environment. Tell me an open PvP game that does not spark this kind of interaction? The root of that interaction and politics is players conflict and the open PvP environment give player the mean to resolve the conflict thus lead to that very special social interaction and guild politics. And no, the combat system in Shadow Bane is not poor, it was ruined by the technical difficulties but not the combat system it self. Tell me what part of the combat system you think is poor? And also no, it does not lack of "leveling spots" far from it. Leveling spots in Shadow Bane are the big part of territory control. You plan your tree and build your fortress near a good "leveling spot" to claim and control that "leveling spot" and giving even more meaning to guild politics.
You obviously bias but not toward the Korean MMO games in general, just toward NCSoft games Lineage II, Blade&Soul and to a certain degree TERA (which used the code base of the old Lineage III project). If you step back and look at the the Korean MMO industry as a whole, you will see the distinction. And the statement Korean MMO win over Western MMO also need to be looked at at the whole picture point of view. Korean MMO win over in Korea, yes, of course, but in the western world, not really. Even in Korea, WoW Korean has the subscription almost equal to both Lineage subscription and Lineage II subscription added together. Who's winning?
It is indeed pointless to continue to argue about those numbers as you can not prove you have these numbers.
Western developers usually take more time? Again, yes, when compared to a a certain number of korean companies, but certainly not all of them. The mmorpg market in korea is very similar to the FPS market here in the west. Are there a lot of cheap budget quick cash in FPS games? Yes, but there are also high quality, High budget FPS games such as Call of Duty 4, Half Life 2 and Halo 3. The korean MMO market is no different.
Your example of roleplaying is also very poor. Here the cold, hard undeniable fact: The vast majority of mmorpg gamers do not care about roleplaying. they never did. If I look at WoW server page, and I honnestly can't be bothered to count all the servers, but it looks like only 2% ~ 3% of all the servers are actually roleplaying servers. People who play mmorpg today care about the social and gameplay part, not the roleplaying part. For every "immersive" chair and painting there is an instanced dungeon or an instanced capture the flag battleground with no lasting effect to jank you right out of the immersion. People don't sit at bars getting drunk, people go out do quests, kill monsters, raise their level and get new equipment.
I love how you certainly call me "heavily bias" simply because I don't agree with your rediculous views. No, a grinding spot is not the same as a quest. First of all Lineage 2 offers multiple spots to level at ANY given point in the game. There are always tons of different places to level and dungeons to explore.In WoW, You are always told exactly what to kill. In Lineage 2 this doesn't happen. I believe there are a handful of quests that tell you to kill a specific mob, but nowhere near the level of WoW.
Yes, you DO level slower if you tackle quest with group mates. You will have to do more quests to make up for the lesser XP per kill and this means more walking. Also, many quests require you to interact with a specific object in the world. For instance, collecting a couple of flowers by clicking on them. Problem is, after clicking it, the flower dissapears. Since you're with more, it takes longer as you have to wait for the flowers to respawn.
Is there content made intended for group play in Lineage 2? Yes, but there is no content made intended for solo play only. I have never noticed a significant change in XP when I grouped or went solo in Lineage 2. If it's there, it's barely noticable. However I noticed a clear decrease in progression when I grouped with a friend and my sister in WoW. In this regard, Lineage 2 is simply far more flexible than World of Warcraft or Lotro.
Nobody is denying games such as WoW and Lotro have more lore elements, but lore elements don't directly influence the gameplay. Adding a storyline to a dungeon does not change the way you tackle the dungeon, and most players have proven they don't care about roleplaying immersion.
You're against missing the point, yes it comes from an open pvp environment but thats because thats the way the game was designed. If you think that you get those kind of interactiong just by slapping open pvp on it, think again. You need to take it into design from the getgo when you create the rulesettings, world design, enemy placement. loot and monsters All of that needs to be taken into consideration. If there is nothing worth fighting for, there won't be any fighting I played on the Ragnarok Open PVP servers for a little while, and no, it did not had this kind of interaction. Why? Because Ragnarok Online is a PVE game at heart.
The thing that gives Lineage 2 depth is the freedom it gives to the player to make these things possible. Yes, it's ultimately all done by the players but only because the game lgives the players that freedom. Thats the difference between a virtual online world and just a game.
Combat in Shadowbane was poor, it was slow, clunky, classes didn't compliment each other well enough the game world was poorly designed.
Who's winning? Nobody is, this isn't a contest. But if you want to compare success, World of Warcraft is the only western mmorpg to ever have any sort of success in Korea. EQ2 failed, Shadowbane failed, City of heroes failed, Lotro failed, all of them failed. However there are many korean mmorpg's having success in the west. Lineage 2 and Ragnarok Online had reasonable success in the west, games such as Maple Story, Silkroad and Rappelz are VERY successfull in the west. In fact, There are more korean games running a profit in the west then there are western companies running a profit in the east.
I'm done with this little debate. Whenever it becomes obvious you're making poor arguments you're calling "BIAS!!!111oneone" to attack another persons credibility instead, and you also lack critical understandings of mmorpg gameplay mechanics and the market to really hold your ground in this debate. I have to say it was amusing you're the one calling me bias, you're the one making stereotype comments, ,making statements such as "koreans will never be as good.."
I think part of the big difference here is the measure of sucess for East vs West MMO's.
Tabula Rasa would have been a smash hit by eastern standards (if made on an eastern budget)
Tabula Rasa was a failure by western standards, despire having made a ton of money.
There is also the issue of how they monitize the games in the east vs the west.
The east is very big on F2P, and that means a different revenue model for the developer as well. They SELL the licence to the game to a publisher, and in doing so make 90% of thier money at that time. They then make the remaining 10% over two years, with a 1-2 man staff. If they can sell the game to multiple markets, they can have a smash hit, whether the game ever has a single player or not.
The west is very big on P2P. The developer makes thier money back over time, and has to have a high user base to cover both operating cost, and slowly make back thier investment. It usually takes 2-3 years and a steady user base to make the money back.
This is why the western market prefers to make a single game that lasts for a long time (better returns) and the east prefers to crank out a new game every 2 years (better returns).
Your Tabula Rasa argument is irrelevant because it was NCsoft Korea that decided to shut down Tabula Rasa, thus by korean standards TR was a failure as well.
Every 2 years? That's rich.
NCsoft:
Lineage 1 release: 1998
Lineage 2 release: 2003
Lineage 3 release: TBA, scheduled to be unveiled in 2010.
Gravity:
Ragnarok Online release date: 2001
Ragnarok Online 2 release date: TBA
Joymax:
Silkroad Online release date: 2005
Silkroad Online 2 schedules release date: 2010
Just a few examples. 1 - 2 people? Thats hilarious, korean development studios often take up multiple floors of towards up.
To me East and West style MMOs are two completeley different styles. Eastern styles are more for grinding pvp and loot. Western styles are more for immersion, social, roleplayer aspects... Or so they used to be. They seem to have take the route of, "lets just do what the whiners say so we can make our money" route. That leaves you with games like Age of Conan and Warhammer with barely any content and the worst crafting ever.
I am hoping soon enough there will be a developer that will break the mold and realize sweet loot and soloing to the max level isn't the answer.
I better stop ranting before I write a 400 page novel here.
funny u said social, when every western game caters to solo players, and everyone plays solo.
when koreans actually coordinate attacks in giant groups.... so ur social comparison is way off
Hence the Western fail rate. I actually agree with the fact that Eastern mmos do good while so few Western mmos do good. Old MMOs like EQ or DAoC were great for the social aspect. I remember making tons of group friends on those games. Nowadays I always play alone and when I get groups they do the quest and breakup. Before quests, you just grouped and camped mobs which I think works a little better for the social aspect seeing as how the only goal was to level up which if you get a good group can happen a lot in a short time and encourage you to stay in said group. And when you spending a lot of time with that group you have causal chatter which makes it all the better. You don't see that all too often today.
what i really like about the koreans, is that they are pushing for real-time combat, and alot of their games have already demonstrated this and it looks frakin awesome. I can't stand stats type battle system, and seems western market future mmos, is pretty much stale. even the new starwars mmo is the same crappy battle system.
yah.. nobody wants the same "crappy" battle system that 11 million WoW players enjoy.... I personally like RPGs. I agree that there is room for other types of MMO combat, but it's a bit far fetched to imply that everyone hates RPG style combat.
lol its not that 11 million wow players enjoy it, its because most people havent tried anything else so they dont know any different.
Think about it, when playing WOW, how many of them played EQ or even SWG or any game that came out before WOW. You will find alot of people that dont know those games or just heard about it b/c of trolling the forums. Next question, ask WOW players how many played WOW before BC? There is alot that did but you will find some that didnt. So this tells me that some of the 11 million people that play WOW only know WOW or just tried another game didnt like it b/c its not WOW. So to say that 11 million WOW players enjoy the battle system isnt correct.
what i really like about the koreans, is that they are pushing for real-time combat, and alot of their games have already demonstrated this and it looks frakin awesome. I can't stand stats type battle system, and seems western market future mmos, is pretty much stale. even the new starwars mmo is the same crappy battle system.
yah.. nobody wants the same "crappy" battle system that 11 million WoW players enjoy.... I personally like RPGs. I agree that there is room for other types of MMO combat, but it's a bit far fetched to imply that everyone hates RPG style combat.
lol its not that 11 million wow players enjoy it, its because most people havent tried anything else so they dont know any different.
Think about it, when playing WOW, how many of them played EQ or even SWG or any game that came out before WOW. You will find alot of people that dont know those games or just heard about it b/c of trolling the forums. Next question, ask WOW players how many played WOW before BC? There is alot but you will find some that didnt. So this tells me that some of the 11 million people that play WOW only know WOW or just tried another game didnt like it b/c its not WOW. So to say that 11 million WOW players enjoy the battle system isnt correct.
I think the Western MMO's do need to take a look at how they are doing things. Its like any company that has been in business for along time sometimes need a 3rd party (consulting firm) to come in and assest how things are being ran. I think the Eastern MMO market is realizing that things do need to change and they are working towards that with their new titles. I just dont think Western MMO's are thinking about that and all they want is the quick buck which is making me feel like they are falling into the old way of the Eastern companies did things by just releasing alot of games b/c they know people will just download them or buy them.
Your Tabula Rasa argument is irrelevant because it was NCsoft Korea that decided to shut down Tabula Rasa, thus by korean standards TR was a failure as well.
Every 2 years? That's rich.
NCsoft:
Lineage 1 release: 1998
Lineage 2 release: 2003
Lineage 3 release: TBA, scheduled to be unveiled in 2010.
Gravity:
Ragnarok Online release date: 2001
Ragnarok Online 2 release date: TBA
Joymax:
Silkroad Online release date: 2005
Silkroad Online 2 schedules release date: 2010 Just a few examples. 1 - 2 people? Thats hilarious, korean development studios often take up multiple floors of towards up.
You obviously don't know the whole picture here. Every 2 years is actually quite correct. You only look at Ragnarok Online and does not list what else Gravity has. How about ECO? Requiem? But why did you only look at certain companies and their follow up? How about other like Prius, 12sky2, Aika, dho ... and countless other MMOs, they were developed in an incredibly short development cycle. Korean development studios often take up multiple floors of towards up? Joymax has less than 100 people total.
Originally posted by Thachsanh The idea of the market is to push out as many MMO as they can as fast as they can, try to get players to play with new games then move on instead of trying to hold long term customers hence the lack of contents you usually see on these Korean MMOs. They will never be able to create MMOs with the depth of say LOTR Online or WoW. This even apply to NCSoft as well. Just do a quick comparison on the amount of contents of Lineage II when it was released with say LOTR Online when it was released and you can see the different (don't even try to compare with WoW).
Sorry but this is utter BS since you're comparing two PvE linear theme park games to an Open PvP territorial control sandbox type game. They are two complete different things and is like comparing apples to oranges. In the first type the content is spoon fed to you a little at a time to keep you on the narrow little path that everyone else follows to get to the end levels. The other you are placed in a wide open world and how you get to the end is basically up to you. Lineage II had actually more content and it was dynamic in nature if you knew where to look for it. This is because the developers put the tools in the game and let the players themselves shape it into what they wanted through PvP mostly.
I've played all 3 of these games and I would have to say out of them Lineage II had the most interesting content because you never know what to expect anytime you logged in. With WoW and LotRO you pretty much can plan your whole game session before you even turn on your computer. Not that I didn't find all 3 enjoyable mind you but out of the 3 Lineage II is the most memerable by a long shot.
Originally posted by Thachsanh The idea of the market is to push out as many MMO as they can as fast as they can, try to get players to play with new games then move on instead of trying to hold long term customers hence the lack of contents you usually see on these Korean MMOs. They will never be able to create MMOs with the depth of say LOTR Online or WoW. This even apply to NCSoft as well. Just do a quick comparison on the amount of contents of Lineage II when it was released with say LOTR Online when it was released and you can see the different (don't even try to compare with WoW).
Sorry but this is utter BS since you're comparing two PvE linear theme park games to an Open PvP territorial control sandbox type game. They are two complete different things and is like comparing apples to oranges. In the first type the content is spoon fed to you a little at a time to keep you on the narrow little path that everyone else follows to get to the end levels. The other you are placed in a wide open world and how you get to the end is basically up to you.
I beg to differ. Lineage II is no where near a sandbox type of game. Tell me exactly "what can you do?" in the world of Lineage 2 when it was released?
Your Tabula Rasa argument is irrelevant because it was NCsoft Korea that decided to shut down Tabula Rasa, thus by korean standards TR was a failure as well.
Every 2 years? That's rich.
NCsoft:
Lineage 1 release: 1998
Lineage 2 release: 2003
Lineage 3 release: TBA, scheduled to be unveiled in 2010.
Gravity:
Ragnarok Online release date: 2001
Ragnarok Online 2 release date: TBA
Joymax:
Silkroad Online release date: 2005
Silkroad Online 2 schedules release date: 2010 Just a few examples. 1 - 2 people? Thats hilarious, korean development studios often take up multiple floors of towards up.
You obviously don't know the whole picture here. Every 2 years is actually quite correct. You only look at Ragnarok Online and does not list what else Gravity has. How about ECO? Requiem? But why did you only look at certain companies and their follow up? How about other like Prius, 12sky2, Aika, dho ... and countless other MMOs, they were developed in an incredibly short development cycle. Korean development studios often take up multiple floors of towards up? Joymax has less than 100 people total.
I do know the whole picture you but unlike most people I'm not as ignorant to claim the entire market works that way. Requiem was released in Sk 2007, 4 years after Ragnarok Online. thats not two years.
There are also western mmorpg who release games in 2 shot timespans.
Turbine:
Dungeons & Dragons Online: 2006
Lord of the Rings Online: 2007
SOE:
The Agency: set for 2009/10
DC Universe Online: Set for 2009/10
Mythic/EA:
Ultima Online: Kindom Reborn - 2007
Warhammer Online - 2008
About multiple floors, I quote from the first issue of RF Online issue where the publishing of RF Online is described:
"A lot of these companies are doing very well and occupy multiple floors in huge towers. "I guess in the west you don't find many developers occupying six floors of a skyscrapper, or filling warehouses with copies of their games"
lol its not that 11 million wow players enjoy it, its because most people havent tried anything else so they dont know any different.
I do. I started with Kingdom of Drakkar .. a precursor to real MMORPG. Beta test for UO .. hated it. Played EQ for a few years.
WOW beats EQ/UO in the fun factor by a LARGE margin.
No longer you have to just grind mobs (quest grinding >>>>> mob grinding).
No longer you have to camp with 50 others and take a number.
No longer you have to do boring mining/cast spells to level up your skills.
No longer you have to deal with real ancient interface.
No longer you have to plan 3 weeks for a raid .. PUG is the way to go.
No longer you only have like one or two things (RAID in EQ) to do at end-game.
No longer everyone is a tank-mage (UO).
WOW is a god-sent compared to EQ & UO.
and that is fine, the original post stated that 11 million people enjoy the WOW battle system and i was just stating not all 11 million do b/c i dont enjoy it. I think its boring.
Originally posted by amimia Originally posted by amimia Originally posted by Salvatoris Originally posted by ricefarmer what i really like about the koreans, is that they are pushing for real-time combat, and alot of their games have already demonstrated this and it looks frakin awesome. I can't stand stats type battle system, and seems western market future mmos, is pretty much stale. even the new starwars mmo is the same crappy battle system.
yah.. nobody wants the same "crappy" battle system that 11 million WoW players enjoy.... I personally like RPGs. I agree that there is room for other types of MMO combat, but it's a bit far fetched to imply that everyone hates RPG style combat.
lol its not that 11 million wow players enjoy it, its because most people havent tried anything else so they dont know any different. Think about it, when playing WOW, how many of them played EQ or even SWG or any game that came out before WOW. You will find alot of people that dont know those games or just heard about it b/c of trolling the forums. Next question, ask WOW players how many played WOW before BC? There is alot but you will find some that didnt. So this tells me that some of the 11 million people that play WOW only know WOW or just tried another game didnt like it b/c its not WOW. So to say that 11 million WOW players enjoy the battle system isnt correct.
I think the Western MMO's do need to take a look at how they are doing things. Its like any company that has been in business for along time sometimes need a 3rd party (consulting firm) to come in and assest how things are being ran. I think the Eastern MMO market is realizing that things do need to change and they are working towards that with their new titles. I just dont think Western MMO's are thinking about that and all they want is the quick buck which is making me feel like they are falling into the old way of the Eastern companies did things by just releasing alot of games b/c they know people will just download them or buy them.
Sorry but you have it completely backwards. All Eastern MMOs and almost exact copies of one another. They are the very definition of copy and paste production. They don't strive to do things differently or change anything in this market they copy each other to the letter and their MMOS are produced for one reason to make a quick buck.
They spew forth rubbish with lightning speed using the same design tools as every other eastern mmo, with no content to speak of and bring nothing to the table that's new or different from every other of their competitors. And they do this to a degree far above any similarities seen in western mmos. They are cheap and cheerful money makers lacking any imagination.
what i really like about the koreans, is that they are pushing for real-time combat, and alot of their games have already demonstrated this and it looks frakin awesome.
I can't stand stats type battle system, and seems western market future mmos, is pretty much stale. even the new starwars mmo is the same crappy battle system.
yah.. nobody wants the same "crappy" battle system that 11 million WoW players enjoy.... I personally like RPGs. I agree that there is room for other types of MMO combat, but it's a bit far fetched to imply that everyone hates RPG style combat.
lol its not that 11 million wow players enjoy it, its because most people havent tried anything else so they dont know any different.
Think about it, when playing WOW, how many of them played EQ or even SWG or any game that came out before WOW. You will find alot of people that dont know those games or just heard about it b/c of trolling the forums. Next question, ask WOW players how many played WOW before BC? There is alot but you will find some that didnt. So this tells me that some of the 11 million people that play WOW only know WOW or just tried another game didnt like it b/c its not WOW. So to say that 11 million WOW players enjoy the battle system isnt correct.
I think the Western MMO's do need to take a look at how they are doing things. Its like any company that has been in business for along time sometimes need a 3rd party (consulting firm) to come in and assest how things are being ran. I think the Eastern MMO market is realizing that things do need to change and they are working towards that with their new titles. I just dont think Western MMO's are thinking about that and all they want is the quick buck which is making me feel like they are falling into the old way of the Eastern companies did things by just releasing alot of games b/c they know people will just download them or buy them.
Sorry but you have it completely backwards. All Eastern MMOs and almost exact copies of one another. They are the very definition of copy and paste production. They don't strive to do things differently or change anything in this market they copy each other to the letter and their MMOS are produced for one reason to make a quick buck.
They spew forth rubbish with lightning speed using the same design tools as every other eastern mmo, with no content to speak of and bring nothing to the table that's new or different from every other of their competitors. And they do this to a degree far above any similarities seen in western mmos. They are cheap and cheerful money makers lacking any imagination.
Seen one seen em all.
Why do you insist on posting about issues you clearly have done no research on and clearly know nothing about? You already got called out for posting this bullshit before in the other thread.
what i really like about the koreans, is that they are pushing for real-time combat, and alot of their games have already demonstrated this and it looks frakin awesome.
I can't stand stats type battle system, and seems western market future mmos, is pretty much stale. even the new starwars mmo is the same crappy battle system.
yah.. nobody wants the same "crappy" battle system that 11 million WoW players enjoy.... I personally like RPGs. I agree that there is room for other types of MMO combat, but it's a bit far fetched to imply that everyone hates RPG style combat.
lol its not that 11 million wow players enjoy it, its because most people havent tried anything else so they dont know any different.
Think about it, when playing WOW, how many of them played EQ or even SWG or any game that came out before WOW. You will find alot of people that dont know those games or just heard about it b/c of trolling the forums. Next question, ask WOW players how many played WOW before BC? There is alot but you will find some that didnt. So this tells me that some of the 11 million people that play WOW only know WOW or just tried another game didnt like it b/c its not WOW. So to say that 11 million WOW players enjoy the battle system isnt correct.
I think the Western MMO's do need to take a look at how they are doing things. Its like any company that has been in business for along time sometimes need a 3rd party (consulting firm) to come in and assest how things are being ran. I think the Eastern MMO market is realizing that things do need to change and they are working towards that with their new titles. I just dont think Western MMO's are thinking about that and all they want is the quick buck which is making me feel like they are falling into the old way of the Eastern companies did things by just releasing alot of games b/c they know people will just download them or buy them.
Sorry but you have it completely backwards. All Eastern MMOs and almost exact copies of one another. They are the very definition of copy and paste production. They don't strive to do things differently or change anything in this market they copy each other to the letter and their MMOS are produced for one reason to make a quick buck.
They spew forth rubbish with lightning speed using the same design tools as every other eastern mmo, with no content to speak of and bring nothing to the table that's new or different from every other of their competitors. And they do this to a degree far above any similarities seen in western mmos. They are cheap and cheerful money makers lacking any imagination.
Seen one seen em all.
I understand what you are saying and what i was saying was that it looks like from the newer models from the eastern companies they are realizing that their player base wants something different like TERA online and a few other titles. I just am getting the feeling that the western companies see WOW and say we can make a quick buck by making a game like that or just reskin it. Now Darkfall and Earthrise are going outside the box by making them on a sandbox platform.
So what meant to say was i feel that the eastern companies are changing their ways while the eastern companies are moving on to the next gen MMO's.
I don’t like eastern MMO, I think they suck. But western MMOs are not hitting on anything either. They needs to totally redefine the MMOs, on both sides. Or maybe I need to take a long break from them.
Your Tabula Rasa argument is irrelevant because it was NCsoft Korea that decided to shut down Tabula Rasa, thus by korean standards TR was a failure as well.
Every 2 years? That's rich.
NCsoft:
Lineage 1 release: 1998
Lineage 2 release: 2003
Lineage 3 release: TBA, scheduled to be unveiled in 2010.
Gravity:
Ragnarok Online release date: 2001
Ragnarok Online 2 release date: TBA
Joymax:
Silkroad Online release date: 2005
Silkroad Online 2 schedules release date: 2010 Just a few examples. 1 - 2 people? Thats hilarious, korean development studios often take up multiple floors of towards up.
You obviously don't know the whole picture here. Every 2 years is actually quite correct. You only look at Ragnarok Online and does not list what else Gravity has. How about ECO? Requiem? But why did you only look at certain companies and their follow up? How about other like Prius, 12sky2, Aika, dho ... and countless other MMOs, they were developed in an incredibly short development cycle. Korean development studios often take up multiple floors of towards up? Joymax has less than 100 people total.
I do know the whole picture you but unlike most people I'm not as ignorant to claim the entire market works that way. Requiem was released in Sk 2007, 4 years after Ragnarok Online. thats not two years.
There are also western mmorpg who release games in 2 shot timespans.
Turbine:
Dungeons & Dragons Online: 2006
Lord of the Rings Online: 2007
SOE:
The Agency: set for 2009/10
DC Universe Online: Set for 2009/10
Mythic/EA:
Ultima Online: Kindom Reborn - 2007
Warhammer Online - 2008
About multiple floors, I quote from the first issue of RF Online issue where the publishing of RF Online is described:
"A lot of these companies are doing very well and occupy multiple floors in huge towers. "I guess in the west you don't find many developers occupying six floors of a skyscrapper, or filling warehouses with copies of their games"
Err, you have to look when they start the project and when they released it. Lord of the Rings Online development started long long before 2006. Warhammer Online had a shorter than usual development cycle and it still took them more than 3 years. Requiem was developed long long time after Ragnarok Online and it did not take 4 years only about 2 years. AION also have a development cycle of less than 3 years. Silkroad Online was developed in 2 years. There are so many Korean MMOs (well known if that counted) that go from scratch to finish within 2 years.
If you look at the norm than the development cycle of a western MMO usually take 4 years on average and Korean MMO usually take 2 years on average.
This might sound rude, but it is only my opinion. I don’t like eastern MMO, I think they suck. But western MMOs are not hitting on anything either. They needs to totally redefine the MMOs, on both sides. Or maybe I need to take a long break from them.
I hear you...I have been on a 2 month break now and been waiting for something new. I just tried to go back last weekend and just couldnt do it so i quit again lol.
Your Tabula Rasa argument is irrelevant because it was NCsoft Korea that decided to shut down Tabula Rasa, thus by korean standards TR was a failure as well.
Every 2 years? That's rich.
NCsoft:
Lineage 1 release: 1998
Lineage 2 release: 2003
Lineage 3 release: TBA, scheduled to be unveiled in 2010.
Gravity:
Ragnarok Online release date: 2001
Ragnarok Online 2 release date: TBA
Joymax:
Silkroad Online release date: 2005
Silkroad Online 2 schedules release date: 2010 Just a few examples. 1 - 2 people? Thats hilarious, korean development studios often take up multiple floors of towards up.
You obviously don't know the whole picture here. Every 2 years is actually quite correct. You only look at Ragnarok Online and does not list what else Gravity has. How about ECO? Requiem? But why did you only look at certain companies and their follow up? How about other like Prius, 12sky2, Aika, dho ... and countless other MMOs, they were developed in an incredibly short development cycle. Korean development studios often take up multiple floors of towards up? Joymax has less than 100 people total.
I do know the whole picture you but unlike most people I'm not as ignorant to claim the entire market works that way. Requiem was released in Sk 2007, 4 years after Ragnarok Online. thats not two years.
There are also western mmorpg who release games in 2 shot timespans.
Turbine:
Dungeons & Dragons Online: 2006
Lord of the Rings Online: 2007
SOE:
The Agency: set for 2009/10
DC Universe Online: Set for 2009/10
Mythic/EA:
Ultima Online: Kindom Reborn - 2007
Warhammer Online - 2008
About multiple floors, I quote from the first issue of RF Online issue where the publishing of RF Online is described:
"A lot of these companies are doing very well and occupy multiple floors in huge towers. "I guess in the west you don't find many developers occupying six floors of a skyscrapper, or filling warehouses with copies of their games"
Err, you have to look when they start the project and when they released it. Lord of the Rings Online development started long long before 2006. Warhammer Online had a shorter than usual development cycle and it still took them more than 3 years. Requiem was developed long long time after Ragnarok Online and it did not take 4 years only about 2 years. AION also have a development cycle of less than 3 years. Silkroad Online was developed in 2 years. There are so many Korean MMOs (well known if that counted) that go from scratch to finish within 2 years.
If you look at the norm than the development cycle of a western MMO usually take 4 years on average and Korean MMO usually take 2 years on average.
Post evidence behind your claims. It's about time you start presenting facts to back up your argument.
Comments
It's amazing how much people just assume and then convince themselves they know what they are talking about. The "fast food" restaurant is only describing a part of the market. Games such as Lineage 1, Lineage 2, Ragnarok Online and Maple Story still have tons and tons of players in korea. In fact, Lineage 1 and Lineage 2 still both have nearly 1 million subscribers. There are lots of companies that aren't just pushing out stuff whenever they can.
Saying they will "never" be able to create mmo's with the depth of LOTRO and WoW Is downright ignorant. VERY ignorant. First of all how does a game like Lotro have "Depth"? Because it drowns you in "Go kill XX" quests or "Go find XX" quests? Lineage 2 had a very complicated Castle siege system in place and PVP clan politics was the heart of the game. There is nothing like that in Lotro. Saying Lotro had more content at launch is VERY debetable. While it had more "Go kill XX quests" or "Go talk to XX" quests, Lineage 2 had a much larger world at release than Lotro had. In fact, Aden completely dwarfs middle earth in size.
I'd love to hear your reasoning for "They will never be able to create MMO's with the depth of Lotro and WoW" the fact you used these games as example of mmo depth already gives it away you really don't know a lot about this genre.
Now now, you just did the same mistake you thought I did. You just assume that I don't know what I am talking about based on what you thought you know. When I said they operate on "fast food" mode, I have the statistic numbers to back that up. I can't give those number to you because they cost money. Of course, you can obtain those numbers too from many Korean companies dedicated to do research and sell information. One of them with fairly reasonable price is gametrics.com. Go, spend money and see for your self. Ragnarok Online and Maple Story do not have tons and tons players anymore. Lineage and LIneage II both from NCSoft and like I said in my post above, they are exception because NCSoft is operating very similar to western developers.
If you look at the top 50 most played MMO in Korea over a long period of time (you can buy this kind of information by the way) you can see (with the exception of Lineage, Lineage 2 and WoW Korea) new MMOs comming in fast and furious push old MMO down very quickly. You wouldnt believe how fast they can make MMO - from scratch. Well, not from scratch, they have kind of a production chain much like the automotive production chain to make MMO.
Come back to the "depth" of an MMO. The Lineage II castle siege system is not "complicated". As a matter of fact, at launch (especially Korean launch) the siege system was rather very simple. If you want to know what "depth" I talked about, try to login say LOTR Online when there are no other people but you, run around, visit city, village and then do the same with Lineage II (I would like to say Lineage II C1 but the only place you can find that is a private server) or any Korean other MMO and see what's the different. I spent time playing Korean MMOs more than enough to put out my opinion.
Oh yeah? Well I'll have you know that my hidden numbers, which I paid for ofcourse and thus can't show you, completely disprove your numbers and it's obvious that my source is far more reliabe than your source and.....wait, hold on, whats that noise? I hear something...Oh wait, thats my Bullshit detector that went off when it detected your post.
Ragnarok Online and Maple Story are still widely popular mmorpg's in South Korea, just like Lineage and Lineage 2. There are lots of korean companies putting a lot of time and effort in their games. Is there a group that is constantly looking for the next big thing? Ofcourse there, this is a huge group. But this is no different from the west. Aside from World of Warcraft, all old mmorpg's have small subscribtion numbers. Everquest, Asherons Call, DAOC, Ultima Online, they all have small subscribtion numbers, Meanwhile new mmorpg's such as Age of Conan and Warhammer Online made it to some of the best selling games of this year, and Lotro is also very successful. It really isn't that different in west.
I'm not sure what you're getting at when you talk about "depth". Try to login online in Lotro when there are no other people but you? Well you see, the fact that Lotro is, you know, an MMOPRG, there usually are other people around. There is nothing special about the towns, it the standard mmorpg fare of NPC's giving out quests, skill trainers and shops. When you say "the siege system is not complicated" you're really missing the point.
In game like Lotro and WoW, the way a player experiences the game is very controlled and directed by the game. The game tells the player what to do, it's very clear what you should be doing and when to do it. The game makes it very obvious when you should group up and when you should solo.
Ofcourse there is nothing wrong with that, thats just what set the game apart from a game like Lineage but it also lacks the depth of true social interaction in a virtual world. in a game like Lineage 2, you're not directed by quests. This mean that hunting in spot A is just as profitable as it is in spot B. You can "explore" and "hunt" freely without being being punished for it by not doing quests. This also means that you can group whenever and wherever you like. If you group up in a game such as WoW, you're making it more difficult for yourself as you're now doing content that is designed for solo play with other players,thus slowing down your progress, unless you're playing group specific content such as an instance.
Another example is PVP. Now, World of Warcraft is a faction vs faction pvp where as Lineage 2 is full open PVP. In a game such as WoW, PVP is very controlled. The game decides who your enemy is and encourages or discourages you to attack another player by rewarding you for it, or not rewarding you at all. In a game such as Lineage 2, You kill a player not because the game tells you to, but because of social interaction. There is usuaully a reason why you kill another player...or there is not! it's entirely up to the player.
I'm sure you are aware of the concept of guild drama. You know what happens, guilds get into a clash and bad things happen. Do you know what happens in WoW? A guild will go to the official forums, bitch how much the other guild sucks and put them all on the block list. Do you know what happens in a game like Lineage 2? The guild master will gather the clan together, if possible other clans part of the alliance, and fight the other clan in full pvp warfare. If possible, fight them in castle sieges as well thus taking away part of their control over the world.
Another example, what if you're at a hunting spot and another player is disturbing you? In WoW, there is nothing you can do about it unless that player is of another faction. in Lineage 2, you have the option to attack that player...or not. again, thats up to the player.
It's the depth of social interaction that's only possible in a virtual world thats completely absent in games such as WoW and Lotro. When a person is trying to prove the depth of western mmorpg's, I'd expect them to mention games such as EVE or Ultima Online, but not WoW and Lotro.
I actually pointed you to the site where you can obtain the number, get it or not, it's up to you. If you really want to know the numbers reflect the Korean market, you can get it and see for your self. It is really no use for me to post the number here because you can also question the validity of those numbers just as easily. Like I said, the number are there, available, worth for you to pay the money to obtain them or not, it's up to you.
You said there is no different from the west, you miss the whole point. Of course the order of most played game will be similar. What make the Korean market different is that list change very very quickly. How long do you have you wait for Age of Conan? How long do you have to wait for Dark Fall? New MMOs in Korea come out every month pretty much. So that picture you see, the list you see change monthly. Do you see that happen in the western market? Of course not.
On the "depth" of an MMO, I think you and I talking about 2 different things. Let's bring our point together. What I meant for the "depth" of an MMO in my previous posts, I mainly point out the immersive of the virtual world contents. Western developers tend to pay more attention to make their world lively, more connected and generally give the player the sense of belonging in the world. For example, if you see a house, in an western MMO, you are likely to be able to open door and enter it and see the decoration inside the house and in many cases you can sit in the chair or something similar while in a Korean MMO, these details are usually skipped and deem unnecessary, a house is just like a rock no more. Of course, I am talking in general here. But you probably get the idea.
Now, let's talk about what you consider "depth". You see, my friend, your view of depth does not necessary come from the game contents. It comes from the what usually consider as a player generated type of contents. This type of contents does not attach to any certain game but rather more to the design of the game - more like an archtype. Depends on the type of an MMO, you will see a different in the kind of social interaction. You see, a PvE, more controlled game does not lack of social interaction, far from it. It come in a different form, perhaps you don't see it, but it's there. WoW is a little difficult to see this type of social interaction, let's me give you a different example, Everquest. This is where you can see a shining example of a community pushed together by the hash environment of the game. While people certainly don't like force grouping, unforgiving death penalty; but the truth is, those make people work together, depends on each other and form a wonderful community where people really understand each other, the good side and the bad side. Many many best friends in real life come from this virtual social interaction.
Now, come back to what you have describe as the depth of social interaction in Lineage II. It's not Lineage II the game it self build this type of social interaction. It's the archtype design of the game. Any open PvP game could develop the very same social interaction you described. It's not unique to Lineage II. Like you have mentioned, EVE have this type of social interaction, corporation control and very heavy player generated contents. Ultima Online before Trammel also have this. Shadow Bane has this type of social interaction and it's much more "depth" than Lineage II ever do. Oh, Shadow Bane, while it has so much technical difficulty which ultimately killed the game, has a much superior PvP system and social structure design than Lineage II ever has. The player social interaction and guild politics were incredibly intensed. Just a few example to let you see that the type of social interaction you mentioned was not comming from Lineage II the game or by NCSoft efforts. It is not Lineage II has more depth in the social interaction, it's the open PvP environment of it usually generates that type of social interaction. Also, WoW or LOTRO do not completely lack of social interaction, it just come in a different form and you just chose to not acknowledge it.
Anybody can call "well I have paid for numbers". If you're not willing to post the numbers and prove they are real, than your argument is irrelevant.
I'm not missing the whole point, in fact it's you who clearly misses the whole point. People in the west are just as likely to jump to the next game as eastern gamers do, the speed of development - release is completely irrelevant. Your whole argument that korean games will never be as good because they rush it to release asap is far from reality. We can clearly see the work and effort that goes into games such as TERA and Blade & Soul. NCsoft doesn't do things differently and is just a silly excuse made up by you as it doesn't support your argument.
What you describe isn't depth at all.It's attention to detail, but definitly not depth. Would adding paintings to the walls in pac man or pong give it any more depth? Ofcourse not, because it's all eye candy, nothing more. It really doesn't affect the gameplay or the way you play the game in any way at all.
To move on, I don't mean to argue games like WoW have social interaction nor do I want to imply that social interaction is limited to pvp, far from it. What i'm talking about is the way that social interaction is handled and the scale of that interaction. in games such as WoW (And when I say WoW I also mean Lotro), your social interactions are much more controlled and the scale is limited. The game decides when its best to group and when its best to solo. If you do solo content in a group, you will be punished for it and you can' t even do group based content when going solo. The game decides where you will be killing monsters and what kind of monsters you will be killing. The game encourages you to either take that objective solo or group depending on the situation and punishes you for the other. When the game encourages you to group or raid (such as when you come across an instanced dungeon) then ofcourse the game becomes a more social experience. but the thing with Lineage 2 is that you have the choice to tackle nearly all the content of the game alone or in a group without getting punished for it. The fact that it uses "leveling spots" instead of quest based content means that players interact with each other a lot more, be it through PVP or PVE.
Saying "Well WoW is a bit to difficult so I'll use Everquest instead" is something i find pretty funny as Everquest's old skool pve content is somewhat different from WoW's. The game didn't direct you as much as WoW does.
The reason why those things happen is because the game offers players the possibility to have such interaction. Thats also the main difference between World of Warcraft/Lotro and Lineage 2. World of Warcraft gives the players an experience. Lineage 2 simply offers content but leaves it up to the players to use that content. I for one never claimed that Lineage 2 is unique in this regard, I never said Lineage 2 is the only one who does this. WoW and Lotro aren't the only ones in their controlled environment either. What I am describing is what sets games such as Lineage 2 apart from games such as WoW and why saying that a game like Lineage 2 has less debt than a Lotro is silly.
It isn't as simple as just slapping on open PVP. Adding open PVP to a game such as WoW or Lotro would not lead to the same experience as Lineage 2, or Ultima Online.
Also, Shadowbane wasn't better than Lineage 2. It's poor combat system, poor world design and lack of "leveling spots" killed the social interaction in it. It was little more than an mmo version of Battlefield.
What turns me off about Korean MMO's are the horrendous grind they offer the player base. Its bad enough killing 10,000 rats in Westerrn MMO's, Korean MMO's require 100,000 rats.
They always have nice art though
Yes, anybody can call "I have paid numbers" but not every body can point you to the source of those numbers so you can get the numbers if you want. You see, because of the restrain of paid contents and membership it is impossible to openly prove the validity of the numbers. The only thing I can do is show you where you can obtain those numbers. Argue more on this is kinda pointless.
And yes, you are still missing the point. Yes, the western players are just as likely to jump to the next game as the eastern players but the western industry does not operate that way. Western developers usually take a lot more time to develop their game and put a lot more resource and efforts to generate game contents at release as they are generally get criticized much more heavily for missing contents. Players of western MMO usually expect a lot more game contents at release.
No, what I described is not just attention to detail. It's the ability to interact with the virtual world, it's the immersive of the virtual world. And to a certain degree, attention to detail is a part of it. It definitely affect the game play and the way you play the game as it open up and give tools for a very important player generate contents, the role playing contents. Most current MMOs are MMORPGs aren't they? It allows activities such as a coupld of friends sit in a bar and get drunk. Also, the virtual world in western MMO usually connect and represent the history, the lore, the events of the game much better, closer. Of course, I do know that there is Korean game does this for example Maginobi. However, we are talking in a much broader view here and we can defenitely say, in general, a western MMO virtual world give player a lot more choices, activities, interaction and immersive; in other word, closer to the real world than, in general, a Korean MMO virual world. That's what I called a depth of a virtual world.
When you talking about WoW put more control over what you can and what you can't do, I think you are just heavily bias. The game decides what kind of monsters you will be killing and where you will be killing monsters, yes, but all games do this even Lineage II. Isn't "leveling spot" a prime example for this? And in WoW, you also do have a choice to group or to solo. When you group and doing solo contents you will not get as much experience from kills but you could complete quests faster. The game does not punish you. Of course, the contents designed for group cannot be accomplished solo. You are telling me that there are no encounters in Lineage II required group? No game has perfect balance between group contents and solo contents. There will always be cases where solo is more efficient and cases where group is more efficient. This is also true in Lineage II and if you are telling me for all Lineage II contents you can do them solo just as efficient as group and vice versa, you are lying.
I think you are confused between what the game allows you to do and what contents the game offers to players. Offer a castle for players to siege, that's contents, putting everyone on the same leveling spot, allow kill stealing on top of an open PvP environment is not contents. And on top of that, the depth of that content. With this I meant the connection of that contents to the virtual world. I will give an example, when you participate in a contents such as an instance in WoW, there will be rather large history and lore of that instance intertwine with the history and lore of the virtual world (Azeroth). It gives the content, the instance, the encounter, the boss a lot more meaning, a lot more depth I would say. In this aspect, Lineage II (especially at launch) and Korean game in general fall short, very short. I also want to say that WoW and other western MMO do allow activities and leave them up to the player to take advantage of them (I avoide to use the word contents). They are usually fall into fluffs catagory and usually does not offer big reward. Many players tend to ignore them. It does not mean that the game does not have that kind of activities. Let me give you an example: the fight in South Shore and Tarent Mill before battleground is one.
The social interaction and the guild politics does come from open PvP environment. Tell me an open PvP game that does not spark this kind of interaction? The root of that interaction and politics is players conflict and the open PvP environment give player the mean to resolve the conflict thus lead to that very special social interaction and guild politics. And no, the combat system in Shadow Bane is not poor, it was ruined by the technical difficulties but not the combat system it self. Tell me what part of the combat system you think is poor? And also no, it does not lack of "leveling spots" far from it. Leveling spots in Shadow Bane are the big part of territory control. You plan your tree and build your fortress near a good "leveling spot" to claim and control that "leveling spot" and giving even more meaning to guild politics.
You obviously bias but not toward the Korean MMO games in general, just toward NCSoft games Lineage II, Blade&Soul and to a certain degree TERA (which used the code base of the old Lineage III project). If you step back and look at the the Korean MMO industry as a whole, you will see the distinction. And the statement Korean MMO win over Western MMO also need to be looked at at the whole picture point of view. Korean MMO win over in Korea, yes, of course, but in the western world, not really. Even in Korea, WoW Korean has the subscription almost equal to both Lineage subscription and Lineage II subscription added together. Who's winning?
Yes, anybody can call "I have paid numbers" but not every body can point you to the source of those numbers so you can get the numbers if you want. You see, because of the restrain of paid contents and membership it is impossible to openly prove the validity of the numbers. The only thing I can do is show you where you can obtain those numbers. Argue more on this is kinda pointless.
And yes, you are still missing the point. Yes, the western players are just as likely to jump to the next game as the eastern players but the western industry does not operate that way. Western developers usually take a lot more time to develop their game and put a lot more resource and efforts to generate game contents at release as they are generally get criticized much more heavily for missing contents. Players of western MMO usually expect a lot more game contents at release.
No, what I described is not just attention to detail. It's the ability to interact with the virtual world, it's the immersive of the virtual world. And to a certain degree, attention to detail is a part of it. It definitely affect the game play and the way you play the game as it open up and give tools for a very important player generate contents, the role playing contents. Most current MMOs are MMORPGs aren't they? It allows activities such as a coupld of friends sit in a bar and get drunk. Also, the virtual world in western MMO usually connect and represent the history, the lore, the events of the game much better, closer. Of course, I do know that there is Korean game does this for example Maginobi. However, we are talking in a much broader view here and we can defenitely say, in general, a western MMO virtual world give player a lot more choices, activities, interaction and immersive; in other word, closer to the real world than, in general, a Korean MMO virual world. That's what I called a depth of a virtual world.
When you talking about WoW put more control over what you can and what you can't do, I think you are just heavily bias. The game decides what kind of monsters you will be killing and where you will be killing monsters, yes, but all games do this even Lineage II. Isn't "leveling spot" a prime example for this? And in WoW, you also do have a choice to group or to solo. When you group and doing solo contents you will not get as much experience from kills but you could complete quests faster. The game does not punish you. Of course, the contents designed for group cannot be accomplished solo. You are telling me that there are no encounters in Lineage II required group? No game has perfect balance between group contents and solo contents. There will always be cases where solo is more efficient and cases where group is more efficient. This is also true in Lineage II and if you are telling me for all Lineage II contents you can do them solo just as efficient as group and vice versa, you are lying.
I think you are confused between what the game allows you to do and what contents the game offers to players. Offer a castle for players to siege, that's contents, putting everyone on the same leveling spot, allow kill stealing on top of an open PvP environment is not contents. And on top of that, the depth of that content. With this I meant the connection of that contents to the virtual world. I will give an example, when you participate in a contents such as an instance in WoW, there will be rather large history and lore of that instance intertwine with the history and lore of the virtual world (Azeroth). It gives the content, the instance, the encounter, the boss a lot more meaning, a lot more depth I would say. In this aspect, Lineage II (especially at launch) and Korean game in general fall short, very short. I also want to say that WoW and other western MMO do allow activities and leave them up to the player to take advantage of them (I avoide to use the word contents). They are usually fall into fluffs catagory and usually does not offer big reward. Many players tend to ignore them. It does not mean that the game does not have that kind of activities. Let me give you an example: the fight in South Shore and Tarent Mill before battleground is one.
The social interaction and the guild politics does come from open PvP environment. Tell me an open PvP game that does not spark this kind of interaction? The root of that interaction and politics is players conflict and the open PvP environment give player the mean to resolve the conflict thus lead to that very special social interaction and guild politics. And no, the combat system in Shadow Bane is not poor, it was ruined by the technical difficulties but not the combat system it self. Tell me what part of the combat system you think is poor? And also no, it does not lack of "leveling spots" far from it. Leveling spots in Shadow Bane are the big part of territory control. You plan your tree and build your fortress near a good "leveling spot" to claim and control that "leveling spot" and giving even more meaning to guild politics.
You obviously bias but not toward the Korean MMO games in general, just toward NCSoft games Lineage II, Blade&Soul and to a certain degree TERA (which used the code base of the old Lineage III project). If you step back and look at the the Korean MMO industry as a whole, you will see the distinction. And the statement Korean MMO win over Western MMO also need to be looked at at the whole picture point of view. Korean MMO win over in Korea, yes, of course, but in the western world, not really. Even in Korea, WoW Korean has the subscription almost equal to both Lineage subscription and Lineage II subscription added together. Who's winning?
It is indeed pointless to continue to argue about those numbers as you can not prove you have these numbers.
Western developers usually take more time? Again, yes, when compared to a a certain number of korean companies, but certainly not all of them. The mmorpg market in korea is very similar to the FPS market here in the west. Are there a lot of cheap budget quick cash in FPS games? Yes, but there are also high quality, High budget FPS games such as Call of Duty 4, Half Life 2 and Halo 3. The korean MMO market is no different.
Your example of roleplaying is also very poor. Here the cold, hard undeniable fact: The vast majority of mmorpg gamers do not care about roleplaying. they never did. If I look at WoW server page, and I honnestly can't be bothered to count all the servers, but it looks like only 2% ~ 3% of all the servers are actually roleplaying servers. People who play mmorpg today care about the social and gameplay part, not the roleplaying part. For every "immersive" chair and painting there is an instanced dungeon or an instanced capture the flag battleground with no lasting effect to jank you right out of the immersion. People don't sit at bars getting drunk, people go out do quests, kill monsters, raise their level and get new equipment.
I love how you certainly call me "heavily bias" simply because I don't agree with your rediculous views. No, a grinding spot is not the same as a quest. First of all Lineage 2 offers multiple spots to level at ANY given point in the game. There are always tons of different places to level and dungeons to explore.In WoW, You are always told exactly what to kill. In Lineage 2 this doesn't happen. I believe there are a handful of quests that tell you to kill a specific mob, but nowhere near the level of WoW.
Yes, you DO level slower if you tackle quest with group mates. You will have to do more quests to make up for the lesser XP per kill and this means more walking. Also, many quests require you to interact with a specific object in the world. For instance, collecting a couple of flowers by clicking on them. Problem is, after clicking it, the flower dissapears. Since you're with more, it takes longer as you have to wait for the flowers to respawn.
Is there content made intended for group play in Lineage 2? Yes, but there is no content made intended for solo play only. I have never noticed a significant change in XP when I grouped or went solo in Lineage 2. If it's there, it's barely noticable. However I noticed a clear decrease in progression when I grouped with a friend and my sister in WoW. In this regard, Lineage 2 is simply far more flexible than World of Warcraft or Lotro.
Nobody is denying games such as WoW and Lotro have more lore elements, but lore elements don't directly influence the gameplay. Adding a storyline to a dungeon does not change the way you tackle the dungeon, and most players have proven they don't care about roleplaying immersion.
You're against missing the point, yes it comes from an open pvp environment but thats because thats the way the game was designed. If you think that you get those kind of interactiong just by slapping open pvp on it, think again. You need to take it into design from the getgo when you create the rulesettings, world design, enemy placement. loot and monsters All of that needs to be taken into consideration. If there is nothing worth fighting for, there won't be any fighting I played on the Ragnarok Open PVP servers for a little while, and no, it did not had this kind of interaction. Why? Because Ragnarok Online is a PVE game at heart.
The thing that gives Lineage 2 depth is the freedom it gives to the player to make these things possible. Yes, it's ultimately all done by the players but only because the game lgives the players that freedom. Thats the difference between a virtual online world and just a game.
Combat in Shadowbane was poor, it was slow, clunky, classes didn't compliment each other well enough the game world was poorly designed.
Who's winning? Nobody is, this isn't a contest. But if you want to compare success, World of Warcraft is the only western mmorpg to ever have any sort of success in Korea. EQ2 failed, Shadowbane failed, City of heroes failed, Lotro failed, all of them failed. However there are many korean mmorpg's having success in the west. Lineage 2 and Ragnarok Online had reasonable success in the west, games such as Maple Story, Silkroad and Rappelz are VERY successfull in the west. In fact, There are more korean games running a profit in the west then there are western companies running a profit in the east.
I'm done with this little debate. Whenever it becomes obvious you're making poor arguments you're calling "BIAS!!!111oneone" to attack another persons credibility instead, and you also lack critical understandings of mmorpg gameplay mechanics and the market to really hold your ground in this debate. I have to say it was amusing you're the one calling me bias, you're the one making stereotype comments, ,making statements such as "koreans will never be as good.."
It's pretty obvious who is really biased here.
I think part of the big difference here is the measure of sucess for East vs West MMO's.
Tabula Rasa would have been a smash hit by eastern standards (if made on an eastern budget)
Tabula Rasa was a failure by western standards, despire having made a ton of money.
There is also the issue of how they monitize the games in the east vs the west.
The east is very big on F2P, and that means a different revenue model for the developer as well. They SELL the licence to the game to a publisher, and in doing so make 90% of thier money at that time. They then make the remaining 10% over two years, with a 1-2 man staff. If they can sell the game to multiple markets, they can have a smash hit, whether the game ever has a single player or not.
The west is very big on P2P. The developer makes thier money back over time, and has to have a high user base to cover both operating cost, and slowly make back thier investment. It usually takes 2-3 years and a steady user base to make the money back.
This is why the western market prefers to make a single game that lasts for a long time (better returns) and the east prefers to crank out a new game every 2 years (better returns).
Your Tabula Rasa argument is irrelevant because it was NCsoft Korea that decided to shut down Tabula Rasa, thus by korean standards TR was a failure as well.
Every 2 years? That's rich.
NCsoft:
Lineage 1 release: 1998
Lineage 2 release: 2003
Lineage 3 release: TBA, scheduled to be unveiled in 2010.
Gravity:
Ragnarok Online release date: 2001
Ragnarok Online 2 release date: TBA
Joymax:
Silkroad Online release date: 2005
Silkroad Online 2 schedules release date: 2010
Just a few examples. 1 - 2 people? Thats hilarious, korean development studios often take up multiple floors of towards up.
funny u said social, when every western game caters to solo players, and everyone plays solo.
when koreans actually coordinate attacks in giant groups.... so ur social comparison is way off
Hence the Western fail rate. I actually agree with the fact that Eastern mmos do good while so few Western mmos do good. Old MMOs like EQ or DAoC were great for the social aspect. I remember making tons of group friends on those games. Nowadays I always play alone and when I get groups they do the quest and breakup. Before quests, you just grouped and camped mobs which I think works a little better for the social aspect seeing as how the only goal was to level up which if you get a good group can happen a lot in a short time and encourage you to stay in said group. And when you spending a lot of time with that group you have causal chatter which makes it all the better. You don't see that all too often today.
yah.. nobody wants the same "crappy" battle system that 11 million WoW players enjoy.... I personally like RPGs. I agree that there is room for other types of MMO combat, but it's a bit far fetched to imply that everyone hates RPG style combat.
lol its not that 11 million wow players enjoy it, its because most people havent tried anything else so they dont know any different.
Think about it, when playing WOW, how many of them played EQ or even SWG or any game that came out before WOW. You will find alot of people that dont know those games or just heard about it b/c of trolling the forums. Next question, ask WOW players how many played WOW before BC? There is alot that did but you will find some that didnt. So this tells me that some of the 11 million people that play WOW only know WOW or just tried another game didnt like it b/c its not WOW. So to say that 11 million WOW players enjoy the battle system isnt correct.
yah.. nobody wants the same "crappy" battle system that 11 million WoW players enjoy.... I personally like RPGs. I agree that there is room for other types of MMO combat, but it's a bit far fetched to imply that everyone hates RPG style combat.
lol its not that 11 million wow players enjoy it, its because most people havent tried anything else so they dont know any different.
Think about it, when playing WOW, how many of them played EQ or even SWG or any game that came out before WOW. You will find alot of people that dont know those games or just heard about it b/c of trolling the forums. Next question, ask WOW players how many played WOW before BC? There is alot but you will find some that didnt. So this tells me that some of the 11 million people that play WOW only know WOW or just tried another game didnt like it b/c its not WOW. So to say that 11 million WOW players enjoy the battle system isnt correct.
I think the Western MMO's do need to take a look at how they are doing things. Its like any company that has been in business for along time sometimes need a 3rd party (consulting firm) to come in and assest how things are being ran. I think the Eastern MMO market is realizing that things do need to change and they are working towards that with their new titles. I just dont think Western MMO's are thinking about that and all they want is the quick buck which is making me feel like they are falling into the old way of the Eastern companies did things by just releasing alot of games b/c they know people will just download them or buy them.
You obviously don't know the whole picture here. Every 2 years is actually quite correct. You only look at Ragnarok Online and does not list what else Gravity has. How about ECO? Requiem? But why did you only look at certain companies and their follow up? How about other like Prius, 12sky2, Aika, dho ... and countless other MMOs, they were developed in an incredibly short development cycle. Korean development studios often take up multiple floors of towards up? Joymax has less than 100 people total.
I do. I started with Kingdom of Drakkar .. a precursor to real MMORPG. Beta test for UO .. hated it. Played EQ for a few years.
WOW beats EQ/UO in the fun factor by a LARGE margin.
No longer you have to just grind mobs (quest grinding >>>>> mob grinding).
No longer you have to camp with 50 others and take a number.
No longer you have to do boring mining/cast spells to level up your skills.
No longer you have to deal with real ancient interface.
No longer you have to plan 3 weeks for a raid .. PUG is the way to go.
No longer you only have like one or two things (RAID in EQ) to do at end-game.
No longer everyone is a tank-mage (UO).
WOW is a god-sent compared to EQ & UO.
Sorry but this is utter BS since you're comparing two PvE linear theme park games to an Open PvP territorial control sandbox type game. They are two complete different things and is like comparing apples to oranges. In the first type the content is spoon fed to you a little at a time to keep you on the narrow little path that everyone else follows to get to the end levels. The other you are placed in a wide open world and how you get to the end is basically up to you. Lineage II had actually more content and it was dynamic in nature if you knew where to look for it. This is because the developers put the tools in the game and let the players themselves shape it into what they wanted through PvP mostly.
I've played all 3 of these games and I would have to say out of them Lineage II had the most interesting content because you never know what to expect anytime you logged in. With WoW and LotRO you pretty much can plan your whole game session before you even turn on your computer. Not that I didn't find all 3 enjoyable mind you but out of the 3 Lineage II is the most memerable by a long shot.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
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beat();
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Sorry but this is utter BS since you're comparing two PvE linear theme park games to an Open PvP territorial control sandbox type game. They are two complete different things and is like comparing apples to oranges. In the first type the content is spoon fed to you a little at a time to keep you on the narrow little path that everyone else follows to get to the end levels. The other you are placed in a wide open world and how you get to the end is basically up to you.
I beg to differ. Lineage II is no where near a sandbox type of game. Tell me exactly "what can you do?" in the world of Lineage 2 when it was released?
You obviously don't know the whole picture here. Every 2 years is actually quite correct. You only look at Ragnarok Online and does not list what else Gravity has. How about ECO? Requiem? But why did you only look at certain companies and their follow up? How about other like Prius, 12sky2, Aika, dho ... and countless other MMOs, they were developed in an incredibly short development cycle. Korean development studios often take up multiple floors of towards up? Joymax has less than 100 people total.
I do know the whole picture you but unlike most people I'm not as ignorant to claim the entire market works that way. Requiem was released in Sk 2007, 4 years after Ragnarok Online. thats not two years.
There are also western mmorpg who release games in 2 shot timespans.
Turbine:
Dungeons & Dragons Online: 2006
Lord of the Rings Online: 2007
SOE:
The Agency: set for 2009/10
DC Universe Online: Set for 2009/10
Mythic/EA:
Ultima Online: Kindom Reborn - 2007
Warhammer Online - 2008
About multiple floors, I quote from the first issue of RF Online issue where the publishing of RF Online is described:
"A lot of these companies are doing very well and occupy multiple floors in huge towers. "I guess in the west you don't find many developers occupying six floors of a skyscrapper, or filling warehouses with copies of their games"
I do. I started with Kingdom of Drakkar .. a precursor to real MMORPG. Beta test for UO .. hated it. Played EQ for a few years.
WOW beats EQ/UO in the fun factor by a LARGE margin.
No longer you have to just grind mobs (quest grinding >>>>> mob grinding).
No longer you have to camp with 50 others and take a number.
No longer you have to do boring mining/cast spells to level up your skills.
No longer you have to deal with real ancient interface.
No longer you have to plan 3 weeks for a raid .. PUG is the way to go.
No longer you only have like one or two things (RAID in EQ) to do at end-game.
No longer everyone is a tank-mage (UO).
WOW is a god-sent compared to EQ & UO.
and that is fine, the original post stated that 11 million people enjoy the WOW battle system and i was just stating not all 11 million do b/c i dont enjoy it. I think its boring.
yah.. nobody wants the same "crappy" battle system that 11 million WoW players enjoy.... I personally like RPGs. I agree that there is room for other types of MMO combat, but it's a bit far fetched to imply that everyone hates RPG style combat.
lol its not that 11 million wow players enjoy it, its because most people havent tried anything else so they dont know any different.
Think about it, when playing WOW, how many of them played EQ or even SWG or any game that came out before WOW. You will find alot of people that dont know those games or just heard about it b/c of trolling the forums. Next question, ask WOW players how many played WOW before BC? There is alot but you will find some that didnt. So this tells me that some of the 11 million people that play WOW only know WOW or just tried another game didnt like it b/c its not WOW. So to say that 11 million WOW players enjoy the battle system isnt correct.
I think the Western MMO's do need to take a look at how they are doing things. Its like any company that has been in business for along time sometimes need a 3rd party (consulting firm) to come in and assest how things are being ran. I think the Eastern MMO market is realizing that things do need to change and they are working towards that with their new titles. I just dont think Western MMO's are thinking about that and all they want is the quick buck which is making me feel like they are falling into the old way of the Eastern companies did things by just releasing alot of games b/c they know people will just download them or buy them.
Sorry but you have it completely backwards. All Eastern MMOs and almost exact copies of one another. They are the very definition of copy and paste production. They don't strive to do things differently or change anything in this market they copy each other to the letter and their MMOS are produced for one reason to make a quick buck.
They spew forth rubbish with lightning speed using the same design tools as every other eastern mmo, with no content to speak of and bring nothing to the table that's new or different from every other of their competitors. And they do this to a degree far above any similarities seen in western mmos. They are cheap and cheerful money makers lacking any imagination.
Seen one seen em all.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
yah.. nobody wants the same "crappy" battle system that 11 million WoW players enjoy.... I personally like RPGs. I agree that there is room for other types of MMO combat, but it's a bit far fetched to imply that everyone hates RPG style combat.
lol its not that 11 million wow players enjoy it, its because most people havent tried anything else so they dont know any different.
Think about it, when playing WOW, how many of them played EQ or even SWG or any game that came out before WOW. You will find alot of people that dont know those games or just heard about it b/c of trolling the forums. Next question, ask WOW players how many played WOW before BC? There is alot but you will find some that didnt. So this tells me that some of the 11 million people that play WOW only know WOW or just tried another game didnt like it b/c its not WOW. So to say that 11 million WOW players enjoy the battle system isnt correct.
I think the Western MMO's do need to take a look at how they are doing things. Its like any company that has been in business for along time sometimes need a 3rd party (consulting firm) to come in and assest how things are being ran. I think the Eastern MMO market is realizing that things do need to change and they are working towards that with their new titles. I just dont think Western MMO's are thinking about that and all they want is the quick buck which is making me feel like they are falling into the old way of the Eastern companies did things by just releasing alot of games b/c they know people will just download them or buy them.
Sorry but you have it completely backwards. All Eastern MMOs and almost exact copies of one another. They are the very definition of copy and paste production. They don't strive to do things differently or change anything in this market they copy each other to the letter and their MMOS are produced for one reason to make a quick buck.
They spew forth rubbish with lightning speed using the same design tools as every other eastern mmo, with no content to speak of and bring nothing to the table that's new or different from every other of their competitors. And they do this to a degree far above any similarities seen in western mmos. They are cheap and cheerful money makers lacking any imagination.
Seen one seen em all.
Why do you insist on posting about issues you clearly have done no research on and clearly know nothing about? You already got called out for posting this bullshit before in the other thread.
yah.. nobody wants the same "crappy" battle system that 11 million WoW players enjoy.... I personally like RPGs. I agree that there is room for other types of MMO combat, but it's a bit far fetched to imply that everyone hates RPG style combat.
lol its not that 11 million wow players enjoy it, its because most people havent tried anything else so they dont know any different.
Think about it, when playing WOW, how many of them played EQ or even SWG or any game that came out before WOW. You will find alot of people that dont know those games or just heard about it b/c of trolling the forums. Next question, ask WOW players how many played WOW before BC? There is alot but you will find some that didnt. So this tells me that some of the 11 million people that play WOW only know WOW or just tried another game didnt like it b/c its not WOW. So to say that 11 million WOW players enjoy the battle system isnt correct.
I think the Western MMO's do need to take a look at how they are doing things. Its like any company that has been in business for along time sometimes need a 3rd party (consulting firm) to come in and assest how things are being ran. I think the Eastern MMO market is realizing that things do need to change and they are working towards that with their new titles. I just dont think Western MMO's are thinking about that and all they want is the quick buck which is making me feel like they are falling into the old way of the Eastern companies did things by just releasing alot of games b/c they know people will just download them or buy them.
Sorry but you have it completely backwards. All Eastern MMOs and almost exact copies of one another. They are the very definition of copy and paste production. They don't strive to do things differently or change anything in this market they copy each other to the letter and their MMOS are produced for one reason to make a quick buck.
They spew forth rubbish with lightning speed using the same design tools as every other eastern mmo, with no content to speak of and bring nothing to the table that's new or different from every other of their competitors. And they do this to a degree far above any similarities seen in western mmos. They are cheap and cheerful money makers lacking any imagination.
Seen one seen em all.
I understand what you are saying and what i was saying was that it looks like from the newer models from the eastern companies they are realizing that their player base wants something different like TERA online and a few other titles. I just am getting the feeling that the western companies see WOW and say we can make a quick buck by making a game like that or just reskin it. Now Darkfall and Earthrise are going outside the box by making them on a sandbox platform.
So what meant to say was i feel that the eastern companies are changing their ways while the eastern companies are moving on to the next gen MMO's.
I am glad that some of the smaller game companies are looking at what their communities want.
This might sound rude, but it is only my opinion.
I don’t like eastern MMO, I think they suck. But western MMOs are not hitting on anything either. They needs to totally redefine the MMOs, on both sides. Or maybe I need to take a long break from them.
You obviously don't know the whole picture here. Every 2 years is actually quite correct. You only look at Ragnarok Online and does not list what else Gravity has. How about ECO? Requiem? But why did you only look at certain companies and their follow up? How about other like Prius, 12sky2, Aika, dho ... and countless other MMOs, they were developed in an incredibly short development cycle. Korean development studios often take up multiple floors of towards up? Joymax has less than 100 people total.
I do know the whole picture you but unlike most people I'm not as ignorant to claim the entire market works that way. Requiem was released in Sk 2007, 4 years after Ragnarok Online. thats not two years.
There are also western mmorpg who release games in 2 shot timespans.
Turbine:
Dungeons & Dragons Online: 2006
Lord of the Rings Online: 2007
SOE:
The Agency: set for 2009/10
DC Universe Online: Set for 2009/10
Mythic/EA:
Ultima Online: Kindom Reborn - 2007
Warhammer Online - 2008
About multiple floors, I quote from the first issue of RF Online issue where the publishing of RF Online is described:
"A lot of these companies are doing very well and occupy multiple floors in huge towers. "I guess in the west you don't find many developers occupying six floors of a skyscrapper, or filling warehouses with copies of their games"
Err, you have to look when they start the project and when they released it. Lord of the Rings Online development started long long before 2006. Warhammer Online had a shorter than usual development cycle and it still took them more than 3 years. Requiem was developed long long time after Ragnarok Online and it did not take 4 years only about 2 years. AION also have a development cycle of less than 3 years. Silkroad Online was developed in 2 years. There are so many Korean MMOs (well known if that counted) that go from scratch to finish within 2 years.
If you look at the norm than the development cycle of a western MMO usually take 4 years on average and Korean MMO usually take 2 years on average.
I hear you...I have been on a 2 month break now and been waiting for something new. I just tried to go back last weekend and just couldnt do it so i quit again lol.
You obviously don't know the whole picture here. Every 2 years is actually quite correct. You only look at Ragnarok Online and does not list what else Gravity has. How about ECO? Requiem? But why did you only look at certain companies and their follow up? How about other like Prius, 12sky2, Aika, dho ... and countless other MMOs, they were developed in an incredibly short development cycle. Korean development studios often take up multiple floors of towards up? Joymax has less than 100 people total.
I do know the whole picture you but unlike most people I'm not as ignorant to claim the entire market works that way. Requiem was released in Sk 2007, 4 years after Ragnarok Online. thats not two years.
There are also western mmorpg who release games in 2 shot timespans.
Turbine:
Dungeons & Dragons Online: 2006
Lord of the Rings Online: 2007
SOE:
The Agency: set for 2009/10
DC Universe Online: Set for 2009/10
Mythic/EA:
Ultima Online: Kindom Reborn - 2007
Warhammer Online - 2008
About multiple floors, I quote from the first issue of RF Online issue where the publishing of RF Online is described:
"A lot of these companies are doing very well and occupy multiple floors in huge towers. "I guess in the west you don't find many developers occupying six floors of a skyscrapper, or filling warehouses with copies of their games"
Err, you have to look when they start the project and when they released it. Lord of the Rings Online development started long long before 2006. Warhammer Online had a shorter than usual development cycle and it still took them more than 3 years. Requiem was developed long long time after Ragnarok Online and it did not take 4 years only about 2 years. AION also have a development cycle of less than 3 years. Silkroad Online was developed in 2 years. There are so many Korean MMOs (well known if that counted) that go from scratch to finish within 2 years.
If you look at the norm than the development cycle of a western MMO usually take 4 years on average and Korean MMO usually take 2 years on average.
Post evidence behind your claims. It's about time you start presenting facts to back up your argument.
Here, I'll give you one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_&_Dragons_Online
"Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach was developed by Turbine, Inc. over the course of approximately two years of development."
Turbine gained the rights for Lord of the rings online in 2005, the game was released in 2007.
For comparison purposes, anyone know what the failure rate among eastern MMOs is?
i lol'd at Lineage 2 having no content compared to WoW.