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What's with all the Darkfall hate?
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If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
Blizzards WoW is BAD and Aventurine's game DarkFall is GOOD ..what now..Videos show its already has more substance then WoW and is still in Beta ..By your logic Blizzard should charge something around 2 - 4 $ .
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
Blizzards WoW is BAD and Aventurine's game DarkFall is GOOD ..what now..Videos show its already has more substance then WoW and is still in Beta ..By your logic Blizzard should charge something around 2 - 4 $ .
Videos show vast empty spaces, naked players whacking on each other and a UI borrowed from UO and slightly upgraded. Other than that I dont see any of this 'Substance' you speak of...
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
Blizzards WoW is BAD and Aventurine's game DarkFall is GOOD ..what now..Videos show its already has more substance then WoW and is still in Beta ..By your logic Blizzard should charge something around 2 - 4 $ .
Videos show vast empty spaces, naked players whacking on each other and a UI borrowed from UO and slightly upgraded. Other than that I dont see any of this 'Substance' you speak of...
They switch weapons at will , attack with arrows, magic in mellee no prob, walk around how they wish no prob, they will or will not attack a monster or a player. They see a tree and could start chop it, they see a lake and could start fish no prob. They could team with anyone to go to location x and location x could be camped and then they could just change plans and instead of hunting monsters the hunt the campers..The whole world is there from day one for everyone.
How much of these can you do in WoW ?
(i even didn't mention the crafting , city building, sieging etc )
Can you do these in WoW ?
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
Blizzards WoW is BAD and Aventurine's game DarkFall is GOOD ..what now..Videos show its already has more substance then WoW and is still in Beta ..By your logic Blizzard should charge something around 2 - 4 $ .
Well, if WoW has 11.5 mill people willing to pay 13$ average a month, then no it is not bad, and no, your eilitist MMOer kiddie opinion is not the general consensus. If a game attracts gamers, then it must be something good. Same thing with darkfall, if it releases a good game, then it will damn well earn its subcription numbers. But if its a bad game, it will not earn people defending it for being an 'indie company' which is what I guess xzyax was saying.
The rules of Debate are really simple; once you have to stoop to insults instead of facts, logic, or reason to try and win your argument, you've lost.
carebears, I say release the game and stop discussing.
If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
Blizzards WoW is BAD and Aventurine's game DarkFall is GOOD ..what now..Videos show its already has more substance then WoW and is still in Beta ..By your logic Blizzard should charge something around 2 - 4 $ .
Videos show vast empty spaces, naked players whacking on each other and a UI borrowed from UO and slightly upgraded. Other than that I dont see any of this 'Substance' you speak of...
They switch weapons at will , attack with arrows, magic in mellee no prob, walk around how they wish no prob, they will or will not attack a monster or a player. They see a tree and could start chop it, they see a lake and could start fish no prob. They could team with anyone to go to location x and location x could be camped and then they could just change plans and instead of hunting monsters the hunt the campers..
How much of these can you do in WoW ?
(i even didn't mention the crafting , city building, sieging etc )
Can you do these in WoW ?
All no prob, except cutting no prob trees no prob.
no prob!
Sillyness aside, you seem to have missed the point completely. Wich was that it doesn't matter who makes the game, as long as the game will be good.
If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
Blizzards WoW is BAD and Aventurine's game DarkFall is GOOD ..what now..Videos show its already has more substance then WoW and is still in Beta ..By your logic Blizzard should charge something around 2 - 4 $ .
Videos show vast empty spaces, naked players whacking on each other and a UI borrowed from UO and slightly upgraded. Other than that I dont see any of this 'Substance' you speak of...
They switch weapons at will , attack with arrows, magic in mellee no prob, walk around how they wish no prob, they will or will not attack a monster or a player. They see a tree and could start chop it, they see a lake and could start fish no prob. They could team with anyone to go to location x and location x could be camped and then they could just change plans and instead of hunting monsters the hunt the campers..The whole world is there from day one for everyone.
How much of these can you do in WoW ?
(i even didn't mention the crafting , city building, sieging etc )
Can you do these in WoW ?
With the exception of chopping trees yes you can do it on a WoW pvp server (sans ganking on a pve server).
As for city building, crafting, seiging; Your just placing buildings as directed and dictated by the game, Crafting is crafting (get resource>refine resource>make item) and sieging has yet to be seen in the game.
So yeah, it might have some features not found in WoW, but found in other games. You claim the videos show it already has more substance, but the videos as I pointed out show nothing really to suggest such substance.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
No matter how people say WoW brought decadence over the MMORPG genre, assassinated the originality for years to come, making the genre extermely stale, and yadda yadda, if it wasn't Blizzard, another company would make a similar game. Isn't it what people do in business? They look at aspects with the biggest appeals to the masses and just copy them to their product. Other companies would eventually look at how the populations behaved in the MMORPG genre, point the majority's preferences and make a game built for them. Nothing surprising, really.
If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
Blizzards WoW is BAD and Aventurine's game DarkFall is GOOD ..what now..Videos show its already has more substance then WoW and is still in Beta ..By your logic Blizzard should charge something around 2 - 4 $ .
Well, if WoW has 11.5 mill people willing to pay 13$ average a month, then no it is not bad, and no, your eilitist MMOer kiddie opinion is not the general consensus. If a game attracts gamers, then it must be something good. Same thing with darkfall, if it releases a good game, then it will damn well earn its subcription numbers. But if its a bad game, it will not earn people defending it for being an 'indie company' which is what I guess xzyax was saying.
But WoW is a BAD game , it lacks so much of what i mentioned and then it charges same amount of money ..totally unjustified..
People pay for fast food and fast food is BAD food ..the more i think about ..yes DarkFall is like eating good and healthy food and WoW is like fartfood , unhealthy and BAD ..and then mass of people are willingly to pay for it..but it doesn't make the fartfood any better ..
DarkFall has all MMO ingredients that makes it a good MMO game ..sandbox freedom , big world, every item player made , every item player lootable..
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
Blizzards WoW is BAD and Aventurine's game DarkFall is GOOD ..what now..Videos show its already has more substance then WoW and is still in Beta ..By your logic Blizzard should charge something around 2 - 4 $ .
Videos show vast empty spaces, naked players whacking on each other and a UI borrowed from UO and slightly upgraded. Other than that I dont see any of this 'Substance' you speak of...
They switch weapons at will , attack with arrows, magic in mellee no prob, walk around how they wish no prob, they will or will not attack a monster or a player. They see a tree and could start chop it, they see a lake and could start fish no prob. They could team with anyone to go to location x and location x could be camped and then they could just change plans and instead of hunting monsters the hunt the campers..The whole world is there from day one for everyone.
How much of these can you do in WoW ?
(i even didn't mention the crafting , city building, sieging etc )
Can you do these in WoW ?
With the exception of chopping trees yes you can do it on a WoW pvp server (sans ganking on a pve server).
As for city building, crafting, seiging; Your just placing buildings as directed and dictated by the game, Crafting is crafting (get resource>refine resource>make item) and sieging has yet to be seen in the game.
So yeah, it might have some features not found in WoW, but found in other games. You claim the videos show it already has more substance, but the videos as I pointed out show nothing really to suggest such substance.
WoW is classes and instances or ? Does it have aiming to hit ? Does it have strafe to dodge ? EVERY Item is craftable in DarkFall, that is substance my friend ..
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
Blizzards WoW is BAD and Aventurine's game DarkFall is GOOD ..what now..Videos show its already has more substance then WoW and is still in Beta ..By your logic Blizzard should charge something around 2 - 4 $ .
Videos show vast empty spaces, naked players whacking on each other and a UI borrowed from UO and slightly upgraded. Other than that I dont see any of this 'Substance' you speak of...
They switch weapons at will , attack with arrows, magic in mellee no prob, walk around how they wish no prob, they will or will not attack a monster or a player. They see a tree and could start chop it, they see a lake and could start fish no prob. They could team with anyone to go to location x and location x could be camped and then they could just change plans and instead of hunting monsters the hunt the campers..The whole world is there from day one for everyone.
How much of these can you do in WoW ?
(i even didn't mention the crafting , city building, sieging etc )
Can you do these in WoW ?
With the exception of chopping trees yes you can do it on a WoW pvp server (sans ganking on a pve server).
As for city building, crafting, seiging; Your just placing buildings as directed and dictated by the game, Crafting is crafting (get resource>refine resource>make item) and sieging has yet to be seen in the game.
So yeah, it might have some features not found in WoW, but found in other games. You claim the videos show it already has more substance, but the videos as I pointed out show nothing really to suggest such substance.
WoW is classes and instances or ? Does it have aiming to hit ? Does it have strafe to dodge ?
Thats not substance, Thats semantics.
Nice try though
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
From what you mentioned, it only lacks chopping trees.
You have proven once again that you know nothing about the game.
WoW charges just as much as all the previous MMORPGS that went before it. If you think that Darkfall will have lots more features, then WoW should not charge less, but Darkfall should charge more.
If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
Blizzards WoW is BAD and Aventurine's game DarkFall is GOOD ..what now..Videos show its already has more substance then WoW and is still in Beta ..By your logic Blizzard should charge something around 2 - 4 $ .
Well, if WoW has 11.5 mill people willing to pay 13$ average a month, then no it is not bad, and no, your eilitist MMOer kiddie opinion is not the general consensus. If a game attracts gamers, then it must be something good. Same thing with darkfall, if it releases a good game, then it will damn well earn its subcription numbers. But if its a bad game, it will not earn people defending it for being an 'indie company' which is what I guess xzyax was saying.
Yup, pretty much.
As much as some like to put down WoW and other successful games... the sub. numbers speak for themselves. I'm guessing they think that by making fun of, or putting down other gamers that makes their game seem more attractive?
Why the need to bash on WoW or other MMOs to make DarkFall seem better?
Can't DarkFall stand on it's own without having to resort to bashing other games and/or their players?
If that is the best you can say for DarkFall... it really is in trouble.
If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
Blizzards WoW is BAD and Aventurine's game DarkFall is GOOD ..what now..Videos show its already has more substance then WoW and is still in Beta ..By your logic Blizzard should charge something around 2 - 4 $ .
Videos show vast empty spaces, naked players whacking on each other and a UI borrowed from UO and slightly upgraded. Other than that I dont see any of this 'Substance' you speak of...
They switch weapons at will , attack with arrows, magic in mellee no prob, walk around how they wish no prob, they will or will not attack a monster or a player. They see a tree and could start chop it, they see a lake and could start fish no prob. They could team with anyone to go to location x and location x could be camped and then they could just change plans and instead of hunting monsters the hunt the campers..
How much of these can you do in WoW ?
(i even didn't mention the crafting , city building, sieging etc )
Can you do these in WoW ?
All no prob, except cutting no prob trees no prob.
no prob!
Sillyness aside, you seem to have missed the point completely. Wich was that it doesn't matter who makes the game, as long as the game will be good.
Videos already show DarkFall as a good game.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
Blizzards WoW is BAD and Aventurine's game DarkFall is GOOD ..what now..Videos show its already has more substance then WoW and is still in Beta ..By your logic Blizzard should charge something around 2 - 4 $ .
Videos show vast empty spaces, naked players whacking on each other and a UI borrowed from UO and slightly upgraded. Other than that I dont see any of this 'Substance' you speak of...
They switch weapons at will , attack with arrows, magic in mellee no prob, walk around how they wish no prob, they will or will not attack a monster or a player. They see a tree and could start chop it, they see a lake and could start fish no prob. They could team with anyone to go to location x and location x could be camped and then they could just change plans and instead of hunting monsters the hunt the campers..
How much of these can you do in WoW ?
(i even didn't mention the crafting , city building, sieging etc )
Can you do these in WoW ?
All no prob, except cutting no prob trees no prob.
no prob!
Sillyness aside, you seem to have missed the point completely. Wich was that it doesn't matter who makes the game, as long as the game will be good.
Videos already show DarkFall as a good game.
And thats what we call 'subjective'
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
Blizzards WoW is BAD and Aventurine's game DarkFall is GOOD ..what now..Videos show its already has more substance then WoW and is still in Beta ..By your logic Blizzard should charge something around 2 - 4 $ .
Well, if WoW has 11.5 mill people willing to pay 13$ average a month, then no it is not bad, and no, your eilitist MMOer kiddie opinion is not the general consensus. If a game attracts gamers, then it must be something good. Same thing with darkfall, if it releases a good game, then it will damn well earn its subcription numbers. But if its a bad game, it will not earn people defending it for being an 'indie company' which is what I guess xzyax was saying.
Yup, pretty much.
As much as some like to put down WoW and other successful games... the sub. numbers speak for themselves. I'm guessing they think that by making fun of, or putting down other gamers that makes their game seem more attractive?
Why the need to bash on WoW or other MMOs to make DarkFall seem better?
Can't DarkFall stand on it's own without having to resort to bashing other games and/or their players?
If that is the best you can say for DarkFall... it really is in trouble.
I said it already.- Many people eat junk and pay for it...and it is like bad food ..many WoW'ers are aware of plaing a bad game .. it was you btw who brought up WoW
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Videos already show DarkFall as a good game.
If that is your answer to my post, then why did you bother to reply to xzyax in the first place?
I'm not saying Darkfall isn't good, I'm just calling you on your irrational WoW hate.
And yet they still hide behind the NDA with all these great selling points? Why would that be?
Many MMOs in the past have not been afraid to show the public what their game had to offer with just 24 days until Release... yet DarkFall with all it's great features you mentioned can not? Why is that?
Many other MMOs managed to offer a true Open Beta with no NDA in place... yet DarkFall can not. Why would that be?
No, for all your bragging of DarkFall's great features and how much better it is than other MMOs... even the Devs do not seem to agree with you. If they thought it was as great as you claim... why not lift the NDA?
If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
Blizzards WoW is BAD and Aventurine's game DarkFall is GOOD ..what now..Videos show its already has more substance then WoW and is still in Beta ..By your logic Blizzard should charge something around 2 - 4 $ .
Well, if WoW has 11.5 mill people willing to pay 13$ average a month, then no it is not bad, and no, your eilitist MMOer kiddie opinion is not the general consensus. If a game attracts gamers, then it must be something good. Same thing with darkfall, if it releases a good game, then it will damn well earn its subcription numbers. But if its a bad game, it will not earn people defending it for being an 'indie company' which is what I guess xzyax was saying.
Yup, pretty much.
As much as some like to put down WoW and other successful games... the sub. numbers speak for themselves. I'm guessing they think that by making fun of, or putting down other gamers that makes their game seem more attractive?
Why the need to bash on WoW or other MMOs to make DarkFall seem better?
Can't DarkFall stand on it's own without having to resort to bashing other games and/or their players?
If that is the best you can say for DarkFall... it really is in trouble.
I said it already.- Many people eat junk and pay for it...and it is like bad food ..many WoW'ers are aware of plaing a bad game .. it was you btw who brought up WoW
Actually it was you who brought up WoW, Not Xzyax.
He merely said (p) "IF the game is GOOD/BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine."
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I don't hate WoW ...i don't care about it as long as WoW isn't being mentioned in relation to DarkFall..
What i noticed is a small company of 30 employees makes a better game then 300 employees..
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
No, he did not.
He brought up Blizzard.
You are the one who asociates the name Blizzard with WoW (wich isn't that weird really) and started to try and bash it in a very strange way. By listing features that both WoW and Darkfall have
In case you don't know, Blizzard has been making games for more than 13 years. They got a good reputation with bringing out their Diablo rpg, Starcraft strategy, and Warcraft strategy series.
It is because of the known reputation of those 3 game series that WoW has such a huge playerbase.
Now Aventurine has the same chance to make a name for themselves with Darkfall.
If they are charging the same money and sub fees... they get to be treated like everyone else. If they want to be treated "special" then they should have set it up as a non-profit company.
IF the game is BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
IF the game is GOOD, it makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine.
See how that works.
Blizzards WoW is BAD and Aventurine's game DarkFall is GOOD ..what now..Videos show its already has more substance then WoW and is still in Beta ..By your logic Blizzard should charge something around 2 - 4 $ .
Well, if WoW has 11.5 mill people willing to pay 13$ average a month, then no it is not bad, and no, your eilitist MMOer kiddie opinion is not the general consensus. If a game attracts gamers, then it must be something good. Same thing with darkfall, if it releases a good game, then it will damn well earn its subcription numbers. But if its a bad game, it will not earn people defending it for being an 'indie company' which is what I guess xzyax was saying.
Yup, pretty much.
As much as some like to put down WoW and other successful games... the sub. numbers speak for themselves. I'm guessing they think that by making fun of, or putting down other gamers that makes their game seem more attractive?
Why the need to bash on WoW or other MMOs to make DarkFall seem better?
Can't DarkFall stand on it's own without having to resort to bashing other games and/or their players?
If that is the best you can say for DarkFall... it really is in trouble.
I said it already.- Many people eat junk and pay for it...and it is like bad food ..many WoW'ers are aware of plaing a bad game .. it was you btw who brought up WoW
Actually it was you who brought up WoW, Not Xzyax.
He merely said (p) "IF the game is GOOD/BAD, is makes no difference if it came from Blizzard or Aventurine."
I know of one MMO Blizzard is producing ..isn't it WoW ?
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)