First I want to say that it reaffirms my belief in the maturity of the eve community that we can have a discussion where so many different viewpoints are held and still remain civil- even friendly.
Second, my apologies to anyone that feels we are belaboring certain points but I'm personally quite enjoying the exchange of ideas here.
Regarding the examples od chess/ football: those are both competitions with a single victory condition against a single opponent, where each player or team must accomplish the exact same thing to win: outmanuever or outscore your opponent.
Eve is quite a bit more complex: winning will have a different definition for everyone who plays. For me, having to resort to combat with other players feels like a failure of diplomacy.
Tha "razors edge" in this debate comes down, perhaps, to the difference between NBSI and NRDS policies. (For those reading who may not be familiar with these acronyms, NBSI stands for "Not Blue Shoot It" meaning you fire on anyone who does NOT have positive standings with you, NRDS stands for "Not Red Don't Shoot" meaning you only fire on people that have "earned" negative standings with you previously.)
I consider NBSI to be a weak policy, basically piracy by people who don't have the guts to call themselves pirates. I compare it to someone having a neighborhood watch that keeps their street completely safe by shooting and killing anyone they don't recognize that happens by. Effective, but absolutely barbaric.
NRDS requires at least attempting to communicate with anyone neutral before acting. This often puts you at a tactical disadvantage.. I've lost ships this way on several occasions.. but I still think it's the right thing to do. I'm reminded of a quote in the bio of a friend of mine: "always negotiate... it gives you time to reload."
If you haven't guessed by now, I have always viewed eve as a human nature laboratory first and a pretend internet spaceship game second. If I seem overly provocative at times with my beliefs, that is part of my enjoyment in the game... with no other goal than to try to better understand what motivates people to make the choices that they do. Always remember the roleplaying can happen on many levels and serve multiple puposes.
So bottom line in this particular issue for me is this: When you see another player that you don't know, do you prefer to instantly make them your enemy/ prey or seek to gain another friend/ ally? Perhaps I'm off base- but since a game is something we do for fun, and we seem most likely to be our true selves in the pursuit of pleasure, don't you think this difference in game behavior might point to fundamentally different personality types in people? I find it all very fascinating.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
For a minute there I thought people were whining about pvp in a pvp game!
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
First I want to say that it reaffirms my belief in the maturity of the eve community that we can have a discussion where so many different viewpoints are held and still remain civil- even friendly. Second, my apologies to anyone that feels we are belaboring certain points but I'm personally quite enjoying the exchange of ideas here. Regarding the examples od chess/ football: those are both competitions with a single victory condition against a single opponent, where each player or team must accomplish the exact same thing to win: outmanuever or outscore your opponent. Eve is quite a bit more complex: winning will have a different definition for everyone who plays. For me, having to resort to combat with other players feels like a failure of diplomacy. Tha "razors edge" in this debate comes down, perhaps, to the difference between NBSI and NRDS policies. (For those reading who may not be familiar with these acronyms, NBSI stands for "Not Blue Shoot It" meaning you fire on anyone who does NOT have positive standings with you, NRDS stands for "Not Red Don't Shoot" meaning you only fire on people that have "earned" negative standings with you previously.) I consider NBSI to be a weak policy, basically piracy by people who don't have the guts to call themselves pirates. I compare it to someone having a neighborhood watch that keeps their street completely safe by shooting and killing anyone they don't recognize that happens by. Effective, but absolutely barbaric. NRDS requires at least attempting to communicate with anyone neutral before acting. This often puts you at a tactical disadvantage.. I've lost ships this way on several occasions.. but I still think it's the right thing to do. I'm reminded of a quote in the bio of a friend of mine: "always negotiate... it gives you time to reload." If you haven't guessed by now, I have always viewed eve as a human nature laboratory first and a pretend internet spaceship game second. If I seem overly provocative at times with my beliefs, that is part of my enjoyment in the game... with no other goal than to try to better understand what motivates people to make the choices that they do. Always remember the roleplaying can happen on many levels and serve multiple puposes. So bottom line in this particular issue for me is this: When you see another player that you don't know, do you prefer to instantly make them your enemy/ prey or seek to gain another friend/ ally? Perhaps I'm off base- but since a game is something we do for fun, and we seem most likely to be our true selves in the pursuit of pleasure, don't you think this difference in game behavior might point to fundamentally different personality types in people? I find it all very fascinating.
In my experience most "NRDS" alliances are always looking for some flimsy excuse like "hey that dude was in a corp last year for a week and that corp was in an alliance two years earlier who shot at us" or "hey that guy flew near that npc frigate wreck kill him!" just to get a quick gank, so they spout all the holier than thou crap but they just like using excuses.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
Glad to see that my response to griefing/ganking/pewpew/whatever has ellicited so many responses, ranging from the 'i'm a do-gooder' types to the 'why should i need a reason to pvp in a pvp game'
Like mentioned before, I will blow up anything and everything I deem a target, whether they be neutral or red, flashy or non flashy, combat ship or indy/hauler/miner types. Why? Because it's fun! I hear the same stuff being mentioned over and over again about how people feel sick to the stomach at the thought of blowing some complete stranger up. Fine by me, but it's nice not having viewpoints pressed upon you. I have a lot of fun flying with my corp and alliance mates, and we all enjoy blowing stuff up, sometimes for profit, sometimes for the pretty colours when they explode.
Here are my thoughts in regard to stuff i blow up:
1. 'Defenseless' ships like miners/haulers/shuttles/rookieships etc: There is no 'defenseless' in eve, just as there is no 'safe' space in eve. Someone who is defenseless merely chooses to be that. Shuttles are often used to transport small but highly valuable cargo, such as blueprints, salvage etc. Same can be said for haulers. Given the chance, why would I not want to blow them up? The might drop good loot, which enables me to sell to make isk to replace the ships i lose in combat
2. Newbies/beginners: If I blow up a newbie's ship/pod, 1 of 3 possibilities might occur. The target in question could convo/mail me, asking for advice etc. That I will helpfully provide, giving them general tips on how to avoid getting killed in the same way in future. The target could also throw a hissy fit and/or role play an upstanding citizen who abhors criminal behaviour. (bonus points scored if i receive hatemail♥) Targets like this make me laugh as i reap their tears, and said tears fuel my desire to pewpew moar... Is this griefing? Yes to the extent that the person getting griefed and the griefer are the same person. Said target is choosing to get angry/sad/upset instead of learning from his mistakes. It's not my responsibility nor my desire to tell these people what kind of attitude they should have towards a game. Lastly and most commonly, the target will just ignore me. I dont care either way
3. 'Real combat' ships. Ships fitted out to pvp, whether well fitted or crap fitted provide me with a challenge. In fact, I enjoy fighting people who know what they're doing, on level terms or slightly imbalanced tipped in their favour. This allows me to hone my skills and if I pop, that's another lesson learned on how to survive.
tl;dr. I dont care about random strangers I meet ingame, I derive all the entertainment and social companionship from pilots ive flown with and know and trust. Everything that happens to you in eve is your own bloody fault, and u can either choose to learn from it or whine/cry and fuel my tears powered sense of humour. The decisions you make determine if you have fun or not. Simple as.
I guess from your perspective the "real me" is the one that I portray while engaging in the fantasy of flying a space combat ship? And the "me" that I portray around family, friends, and associates isn't the real me but one that I manufacture to cover up my true motives and desires?
It is hard for me to imagine that in over 50 years of my lifetime that these "true desires" wouldn't have slipped out, if only just a little. But if you were to ask my family, friends, and associates if they have ever seen any indication toward the tendencies I portray in EVE you would be met with an unequivocal negative.
It also seems exceedingly strange to me that in every MMO game I have played before EVE, save one, I have been a 100% complete carebear, and in that 1 I was only about 85% carebear. Heck, for the first half of my EVE career I was a carebear only character.
So, how do you explain that? I think if you want to continue with your contentions about a person's true nature being revealed in what he does for pleasure you have to be able to adequately explain the real life example I have given.
I would maintain only that there is some part of you that revels in the virtual destruction and domination of others, even if it is a small part. Do you deny this?? If so, why would you do it for fun then?
I've already said that I don't think anyone here is an antisocial psychopath, including you. I was just talking about personality traits and components, and how your choices in an environment COMPLETELY free from ramifications and consequences might demonstrate something about the inner workings of peoples' minds that we wouldn't otherwise see.
By the way, has there ever been a game other than EvE or UO where the term "carebear" had any real meaning? In wow, lotro, and every other MMO I've tried the PvP seemed essentially irrelevant (more like the chess game or sports examples you gave earlier).
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I believe "griefing" is a matter of perspective and in the case of EVE people who feel "griefed" have the wrong attitude for an example if i get ganked by a 10 man gank squad who then smartbombed my pod I do not feel "griefed" because its part of the game but a carebear will cry his eyes out if someone in a frigate kills his cruiser when hes wandering around low sec and then they run to various forums and post about how the evil "Greifer" killed him without provocation and ruined his game experience.
In short people who feel "griefed" in EVE are doing it wrong.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
This has been an interesting read and it has led me to the conclusion that there's not much point in someone who has not already been there for several years and has the ability to own noobs without consequences to start now. PvP does not = griefing in my book although some of you have gone to great lengths to rationalize otherwise.
So back to carebear PvP games for me where this sort of thing is prevented...or maybe even Darkfall as long as I get in right at the beginning and have a reasonable chance to fight back.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by Iselin So back to carebear PvP games for me where this sort of thing is prevented...or maybe even Darkfall as long as I get in right at the beginning and have a reasonable chance to fight back.
Or...you could take names and later on when you become more adept with your character, you could seek out those who have wronged you. Revenge can be a beautful thing.
Originally posted by Iselin So back to carebear PvP games for me where this sort of thing is prevented...or maybe even Darkfall as long as I get in right at the beginning and have a reasonable chance to fight back.
Or...you could take names and later on when you become more adept with your character, you could seek out those who have wronged you. Revenge can be a beautful thing.
You and I think alike...that had occured to me, but the time required would delay things too much for my liking. I've never agreed with that old "Revenge is a dish best served cold" bit.
It's not like I'm new to PvP: I've been enjoying fighting against intelligent opponents since Asheron Call days. I've just always found uneven PvP griefing of starter areas by gank squads or high-level players on lowbee noobs to be a particularly despicable form of it practiced by basement-dwelling, no-life trogoldytes who should all be castrated before they have a chance to breed... but don't get me going or I might tell you how I really feel about it
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
This has been an interesting read and it has led me to the conclusion that there's not much point in someone who has not already been there for several years and has the ability to own noobs without consequences to start now. PvP does not = griefing in my book although some of you have gone to great lengths to rationalize otherwise.
So back to carebear PvP games for me where this sort of thing is prevented...or maybe even Darkfall as long as I get in right at the beginning and have a reasonable chance to fight back.
You are certainly free to hold any opinion that you find reasonable to hold, but if you were to tell the new players, many under one month in age that have joined my corp (a pure PvP low sec corp) that they are wasting their time because they haven't been around for years they will laugh at you.
The fact is, newer players, especially when in a group, can pose a very serious threat to older and more experienced players.
My favorite recent example, 2 frigates, 1 interceptor, 1 assault frigate, 2 players under 2 months old, the oldest, 6 months. They warped in on, tackled and blew up a Raven battleship piloted by a year old character.
Some will say it's only one example and therefore doesn't count. But these examples occur on a regular basis in our corp, at least a few times a week.
So come out and give EVE a shot. Or go play your carebear PvP game and be nice and safe.
Originally posted by Iselin So back to carebear PvP games for me where this sort of thing is prevented...or maybe even Darkfall as long as I get in right at the beginning and have a reasonable chance to fight back.
Or...you could take names and later on when you become more adept with your character, you could seek out those who have wronged you. Revenge can be a beautful thing.
You and I think alike...that had occured to me, but the time required would delay things too much for my liking. I've never agreed with that old "Revenge is a dish best served cold" bit.
It's not like I'm new to PvP: I've been enjoying fighting against intelligent opponents since Asheron Call days. I've just always found uneven PvP griefing of starter areas by gank squads or high-level players on lowbee noobs to be a particularly despicable form of it practiced by basement-dwelling, no-life trogoldytes who should all be castrated before they have a chance to breed... but don't get me going or I might tell you how I really feel about it
Well, I'm not a hardcore gamer, but I like my limited gametime VERY hardcore :-) I like the challenge of these gankers because it forces me to look at new ways of building my characters -- looking outside the box, if you will.
Recently, I started a Destruction character in WAR - a Zealot. I never liked the idea of the Zealot as a healer, mainly because they are always getting tapped first in RvR so the group has no healing. I played around with the skills and had to do some farming to pay for a few respecs, but I wound up with a pretty decent Zealot who is great at debuffs and ranged direct damage. I also focused on a few good protection spells and buffed up his toughness with armor.
As I wandered through an RvR area -- alone -- a dwarf, three levels above me, emerged from behind a tree and attacked me. Imagine his suprise when his HP was 50% and mine was still at a full 100% -- and still recharging everytime he hit me due to a HOT spell! He turned and ran -- I chased him down and finished him off. I'll bet he was thinking later, "OMG, my tank was just pwned by a healer!"
This is what makes playing around with the games a lot of fun. This also means a lot of trial and error AND a lot of dying :-) I never understood why people always make the mad dash to the top level, when there is so much to do in between --- not all of it quest related.
EVE is not really my cup of tea (I'm not a sci-fi fan), but don't give up just yet. Play around, see what happens, and think of the assholes as training practice :-) Eventually you will be their problem
This has been an interesting read and it has led me to the conclusion that there's not much point in someone who has not already been there for several years and has the ability to own noobs without consequences to start now. PvP does not = griefing in my book although some of you have gone to great lengths to rationalize otherwise.
So back to carebear PvP games for me where this sort of thing is prevented...or maybe even Darkfall as long as I get in right at the beginning and have a reasonable chance to fight back.
This is the attitude that causes people to fail at EVE tbh, making excuses about not being able to catch up and how that guy has more SP than me etc. Yes skill points do matter to an extent and you do need the right skills but the player skill and intelligence is the deciding factor and there is another aspect to EVE that effectively renders it rock paper and scissors and when you choose the right one SP go right out the window.
To see what I'm talking about download this guys vids and watch them, trust me they are well worth the download:-
He uses cheap frigates and ships you can be fully effective with in a very short time and any excuses about needing billions of ISK and tens of millions of SP look pretty weak.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
congrats for 'getting' what eve is all about. Good luck and fly safe! (won't offer to give you my ingame name so you can 'hit me up'. I like to help newbies, but like to piss people off more, and anonimity is to ensure i can do that in future )
Seems 12 year old griefers join games so they can do this very thing. Tell me; what is the appeal?
Is it the fact that you are anonymous, causing trouble, that gives you a thrill? I left WoW after 2 years of playing because of players with this very same mentality. Please: What is it that motivates a person to do this?
Dude get a grip. I think he was simpling making a point that in EVE you can be an ass and get away with it. 90% of EVE has done an ass hole move before and the 10% that havent quit or are the ones that get pushed around. EVE in a cold dark universe. The last thing I want is for Every alliance to be allied because they are to nice to attack anyone.
Nearly every war in eve has been provoked by ass holes doing something stupid.
You could take out the "in eve” and let that sentence stand alone. That pretty much describes what’s so great about this game. The way is simulates real tension in a fantasy setting.
When I first started I felt much the same way a Piivot about EVE's Grievers, but over time you learn to respect people for having the gall to really make you work for it. EVE doesn’t have a serious PVE challenge that confronts players, and without pirates it would be a fairly boring game. Someone said being a griever says something about the person’s personality (or something to that effect), but I don't think that’s the case in EVE. One of the reason some people are drawn to this is because it adds so much to the game and everything legal is complicated or hard.
I would maintain only that there is some part of you that revels in the virtual destruction and domination of others, even if it is a small part. Do you deny this?? If so, why would you do it for fun then? Again, I think you read too much into people's motivations. I like EVE because it satisfies a competitive urge and it is a game I have a chance at winning. I like poker for the same reason, and chess. Do I play poker because I like to dominate others? No, I play because I like to match wits with others, and, in some cases, win. The money is nice too. I know you want to make EVE some grand social experiment, and perhaps to you it is. To me, it is a game that I enjoy playing with others.
if you feel griefed, you're doing it wrong if u get blown up, you're doing it wrong if u can't afford to pvp, you're doing it wrong if you take offense at others for pvp-ing in a pvp game, you're doing it wrong if u blow up someone's ship, and get hatemail, get smack, or that adrenaline rush that all pvpers crave then you're doing at least 1 thing rite conclusion: you're doing it wrong until u start having fun edit: spelling
If some of you have missed my point:
I love EVE just like it is. Been playing for 4 years, have tens of billions of isk and assets. I love the fact that there are pirates and griefers and scammers in the game, I'd quit if they weren't there- they are the only decent competition. I DO NOT take offense at being attacked/scammed/ganked whatever if another player is good enough to get me. I live in 0.0 probably 90% of the time and do not run missions or mine.
Simply stated, I LOVE the hardcore nature of EVE. I have simply been making the point that those who take pleasure (even virtually) in domination of others through violent action are IN MY OPINION fundamentally different from those of us who would prefer success through constructive processes.
Yes, I do prefer to view eve as a social experiment primarily. Ask yourself what keeps you playing year after year.. is it game mechanics?? or is it the nuances of human interaction that you get to experience on a daily basis in the game?
If you lack the synaptic firepower to understand how I can simultaneously love pirates and their ilk for being the way they are in the game AND make an observation/ judgement about the personality types of those players... well, I'm sorry.. can't help you much there.
I participate in this thread because I find the discussion interesting. What I write here is OPINION and CONJECTURE just like everything the rest of the contributors write.. some of it intentionally provocative. If you tell me that you are a pirate and you don't understand that, pardon me while I enjoy the irony.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I for one love to grief Griefers, it's so much fun when you can turn a griefer into the cry-baby. Take this scenario for example: Griefer: "Give me all you have and I'll let you live" Me: "BWAHAHAHAHA" Griefer: "I'm flashing red better give it to me" Me:"Doesn't that mean Concord is coming to get you?" Griefer: *grifer shoots Me: *Armor tank (although mining in a Myrm) Griefer: *Blown up by Concord Griefer: "I'll be back with 5 of my friends" Me: "I'll be in Jita if u need me" Now I believe i'm being watched.. will soon be flying assaults anyway so wth.
U really play eve? So where did this imaginary scenario take place? Hi sec?
people only turn flashy AFTER theyve fired or stolen from you.. or have too low a sec status to enter highsec, thus rendering your point moot
I for one love to grief Griefers, it's so much fun when you can turn a griefer into the cry-baby. Take this scenario for example: Griefer: "Give me all you have and I'll let you live" Me: "BWAHAHAHAHA" Griefer: "I'm flashing red better give it to me" Me:"Doesn't that mean Concord is coming to get you?" Griefer: *grifer shoots Me: *Armor tank (although mining in a Myrm) Griefer: *Blown up by Concord Griefer: "I'll be back with 5 of my friends" Me: "I'll be in Jita if u need me" Now I believe i'm being watched.. will soon be flying assaults anyway so wth.
U really play eve? So where did this imaginary scenario take place? Hi sec?
people only turn flashy AFTER theyve fired or stolen from you.. or have too low a sec status to enter highsec, thus rendering your point moot
I agree this scenario sounds like something you made up by reading forums. What kind of Griefer(pirate) says "I WIll be back with 5 of my friends?"
Someone might have stolen from his can. That person would then show up flashy to him. The game mechanics would not let that person shoot at him though. Sounds like a wanna be pirate did not understand how the game worked.
I for one love to grief Griefers, it's so much fun when you can turn a griefer into the cry-baby. Take this scenario for example: Griefer: "Give me all you have and I'll let you live" Me: "BWAHAHAHAHA" Griefer: "I'm flashing red better give it to me" Me:"Doesn't that mean Concord is coming to get you?" Griefer: *grifer shoots Me: *Armor tank (although mining in a Myrm) Griefer: *Blown up by Concord Griefer: "I'll be back with 5 of my friends" Me: "I'll be in Jita if u need me" Now I believe i'm being watched.. will soon be flying assaults anyway so wth.
U really play eve? So where did this imaginary scenario take place? Hi sec?
people only turn flashy AFTER theyve fired or stolen from you.. or have too low a sec status to enter highsec, thus rendering your point moot
Can also set up your overview to have the icon flash depending on certain conditions....i.e. a security status of -5 or worse or if they have a bounty on them. /shrug Maybe he config'd his overview to indicate something like that. I would lmao though if someone said to me, "I'll be back with 5 of my friends." That sounds a bit far fetched.
Comments
First I want to say that it reaffirms my belief in the maturity of the eve community that we can have a discussion where so many different viewpoints are held and still remain civil- even friendly.
Second, my apologies to anyone that feels we are belaboring certain points but I'm personally quite enjoying the exchange of ideas here.
Regarding the examples od chess/ football: those are both competitions with a single victory condition against a single opponent, where each player or team must accomplish the exact same thing to win: outmanuever or outscore your opponent.
Eve is quite a bit more complex: winning will have a different definition for everyone who plays. For me, having to resort to combat with other players feels like a failure of diplomacy.
Tha "razors edge" in this debate comes down, perhaps, to the difference between NBSI and NRDS policies. (For those reading who may not be familiar with these acronyms, NBSI stands for "Not Blue Shoot It" meaning you fire on anyone who does NOT have positive standings with you, NRDS stands for "Not Red Don't Shoot" meaning you only fire on people that have "earned" negative standings with you previously.)
I consider NBSI to be a weak policy, basically piracy by people who don't have the guts to call themselves pirates. I compare it to someone having a neighborhood watch that keeps their street completely safe by shooting and killing anyone they don't recognize that happens by. Effective, but absolutely barbaric.
NRDS requires at least attempting to communicate with anyone neutral before acting. This often puts you at a tactical disadvantage.. I've lost ships this way on several occasions.. but I still think it's the right thing to do. I'm reminded of a quote in the bio of a friend of mine: "always negotiate... it gives you time to reload."
If you haven't guessed by now, I have always viewed eve as a human nature laboratory first and a pretend internet spaceship game second. If I seem overly provocative at times with my beliefs, that is part of my enjoyment in the game... with no other goal than to try to better understand what motivates people to make the choices that they do. Always remember the roleplaying can happen on many levels and serve multiple puposes.
So bottom line in this particular issue for me is this: When you see another player that you don't know, do you prefer to instantly make them your enemy/ prey or seek to gain another friend/ ally? Perhaps I'm off base- but since a game is something we do for fun, and we seem most likely to be our true selves in the pursuit of pleasure, don't you think this difference in game behavior might point to fundamentally different personality types in people? I find it all very fascinating.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
For a minute there I thought people were whining about pvp in a pvp game!
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
In my experience most "NRDS" alliances are always looking for some flimsy excuse like "hey that dude was in a corp last year for a week and that corp was in an alliance two years earlier who shot at us" or "hey that guy flew near that npc frigate wreck kill him!" just to get a quick gank, so they spout all the holier than thou crap but they just like using excuses.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
I find that I don't need any fake excuses to engage in PvP in a PvP game.
Glad to see that my response to griefing/ganking/pewpew/whatever has ellicited so many responses, ranging from the 'i'm a do-gooder' types to the 'why should i need a reason to pvp in a pvp game'
Like mentioned before, I will blow up anything and everything I deem a target, whether they be neutral or red, flashy or non flashy, combat ship or indy/hauler/miner types. Why? Because it's fun! I hear the same stuff being mentioned over and over again about how people feel sick to the stomach at the thought of blowing some complete stranger up. Fine by me, but it's nice not having viewpoints pressed upon you. I have a lot of fun flying with my corp and alliance mates, and we all enjoy blowing stuff up, sometimes for profit, sometimes for the pretty colours when they explode.
Here are my thoughts in regard to stuff i blow up:
1. 'Defenseless' ships like miners/haulers/shuttles/rookieships etc: There is no 'defenseless' in eve, just as there is no 'safe' space in eve. Someone who is defenseless merely chooses to be that. Shuttles are often used to transport small but highly valuable cargo, such as blueprints, salvage etc. Same can be said for haulers. Given the chance, why would I not want to blow them up? The might drop good loot, which enables me to sell to make isk to replace the ships i lose in combat
2. Newbies/beginners: If I blow up a newbie's ship/pod, 1 of 3 possibilities might occur. The target in question could convo/mail me, asking for advice etc. That I will helpfully provide, giving them general tips on how to avoid getting killed in the same way in future. The target could also throw a hissy fit and/or role play an upstanding citizen who abhors criminal behaviour. (bonus points scored if i receive hatemail♥) Targets like this make me laugh as i reap their tears, and said tears fuel my desire to pewpew moar... Is this griefing? Yes to the extent that the person getting griefed and the griefer are the same person. Said target is choosing to get angry/sad/upset instead of learning from his mistakes. It's not my responsibility nor my desire to tell these people what kind of attitude they should have towards a game. Lastly and most commonly, the target will just ignore me. I dont care either way
3. 'Real combat' ships. Ships fitted out to pvp, whether well fitted or crap fitted provide me with a challenge. In fact, I enjoy fighting people who know what they're doing, on level terms or slightly imbalanced tipped in their favour. This allows me to hone my skills and if I pop, that's another lesson learned on how to survive.
tl;dr. I dont care about random strangers I meet ingame, I derive all the entertainment and social companionship from pilots ive flown with and know and trust. Everything that happens to you in eve is your own bloody fault, and u can either choose to learn from it or whine/cry and fuel my tears powered sense of humour. The decisions you make determine if you have fun or not. Simple as.
So, Enkindu,
I guess from your perspective the "real me" is the one that I portray while engaging in the fantasy of flying a space combat ship? And the "me" that I portray around family, friends, and associates isn't the real me but one that I manufacture to cover up my true motives and desires?
It is hard for me to imagine that in over 50 years of my lifetime that these "true desires" wouldn't have slipped out, if only just a little. But if you were to ask my family, friends, and associates if they have ever seen any indication toward the tendencies I portray in EVE you would be met with an unequivocal negative.
It also seems exceedingly strange to me that in every MMO game I have played before EVE, save one, I have been a 100% complete carebear, and in that 1 I was only about 85% carebear. Heck, for the first half of my EVE career I was a carebear only character.
So, how do you explain that? I think if you want to continue with your contentions about a person's true nature being revealed in what he does for pleasure you have to be able to adequately explain the real life example I have given.
I would maintain only that there is some part of you that revels in the virtual destruction and domination of others, even if it is a small part. Do you deny this?? If so, why would you do it for fun then?
I've already said that I don't think anyone here is an antisocial psychopath, including you. I was just talking about personality traits and components, and how your choices in an environment COMPLETELY free from ramifications and consequences might demonstrate something about the inner workings of peoples' minds that we wouldn't otherwise see.
By the way, has there ever been a game other than EvE or UO where the term "carebear" had any real meaning? In wow, lotro, and every other MMO I've tried the PvP seemed essentially irrelevant (more like the chess game or sports examples you gave earlier).
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I believe "griefing" is a matter of perspective and in the case of EVE people who feel "griefed" have the wrong attitude for an example if i get ganked by a 10 man gank squad who then smartbombed my pod I do not feel "griefed" because its part of the game but a carebear will cry his eyes out if someone in a frigate kills his cruiser when hes wandering around low sec and then they run to various forums and post about how the evil "Greifer" killed him without provocation and ruined his game experience.
In short people who feel "griefed" in EVE are doing it wrong.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
This has been an interesting read and it has led me to the conclusion that there's not much point in someone who has not already been there for several years and has the ability to own noobs without consequences to start now. PvP does not = griefing in my book although some of you have gone to great lengths to rationalize otherwise.
So back to carebear PvP games for me where this sort of thing is prevented...or maybe even Darkfall as long as I get in right at the beginning and have a reasonable chance to fight back.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Or...you could take names and later on when you become more adept with your character, you could seek out those who have wronged you. Revenge can be a beautful thing.
Or...you could take names and later on when you become more adept with your character, you could seek out those who have wronged you. Revenge can be a beautful thing.
You and I think alike...that had occured to me, but the time required would delay things too much for my liking. I've never agreed with that old "Revenge is a dish best served cold" bit.
It's not like I'm new to PvP: I've been enjoying fighting against intelligent opponents since Asheron Call days. I've just always found uneven PvP griefing of starter areas by gank squads or high-level players on lowbee noobs to be a particularly despicable form of it practiced by basement-dwelling, no-life trogoldytes who should all be castrated before they have a chance to breed... but don't get me going or I might tell you how I really feel about it
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
You are certainly free to hold any opinion that you find reasonable to hold, but if you were to tell the new players, many under one month in age that have joined my corp (a pure PvP low sec corp) that they are wasting their time because they haven't been around for years they will laugh at you.
The fact is, newer players, especially when in a group, can pose a very serious threat to older and more experienced players.
My favorite recent example, 2 frigates, 1 interceptor, 1 assault frigate, 2 players under 2 months old, the oldest, 6 months. They warped in on, tackled and blew up a Raven battleship piloted by a year old character.
Some will say it's only one example and therefore doesn't count. But these examples occur on a regular basis in our corp, at least a few times a week.
So come out and give EVE a shot. Or go play your carebear PvP game and be nice and safe.
It's your choice.
Or...you could take names and later on when you become more adept with your character, you could seek out those who have wronged you. Revenge can be a beautful thing.
You and I think alike...that had occured to me, but the time required would delay things too much for my liking. I've never agreed with that old "Revenge is a dish best served cold" bit.
It's not like I'm new to PvP: I've been enjoying fighting against intelligent opponents since Asheron Call days. I've just always found uneven PvP griefing of starter areas by gank squads or high-level players on lowbee noobs to be a particularly despicable form of it practiced by basement-dwelling, no-life trogoldytes who should all be castrated before they have a chance to breed... but don't get me going or I might tell you how I really feel about it
Well, I'm not a hardcore gamer, but I like my limited gametime VERY hardcore :-) I like the challenge of these gankers because it forces me to look at new ways of building my characters -- looking outside the box, if you will.
Recently, I started a Destruction character in WAR - a Zealot. I never liked the idea of the Zealot as a healer, mainly because they are always getting tapped first in RvR so the group has no healing. I played around with the skills and had to do some farming to pay for a few respecs, but I wound up with a pretty decent Zealot who is great at debuffs and ranged direct damage. I also focused on a few good protection spells and buffed up his toughness with armor.
As I wandered through an RvR area -- alone -- a dwarf, three levels above me, emerged from behind a tree and attacked me. Imagine his suprise when his HP was 50% and mine was still at a full 100% -- and still recharging everytime he hit me due to a HOT spell! He turned and ran -- I chased him down and finished him off. I'll bet he was thinking later, "OMG, my tank was just pwned by a healer!"
This is what makes playing around with the games a lot of fun. This also means a lot of trial and error AND a lot of dying :-) I never understood why people always make the mad dash to the top level, when there is so much to do in between --- not all of it quest related.
EVE is not really my cup of tea (I'm not a sci-fi fan), but don't give up just yet. Play around, see what happens, and think of the assholes as training practice :-) Eventually you will be their problem
EDIT: fixed typo.
This is the attitude that causes people to fail at EVE tbh, making excuses about not being able to catch up and how that guy has more SP than me etc. Yes skill points do matter to an extent and you do need the right skills but the player skill and intelligence is the deciding factor and there is another aspect to EVE that effectively renders it rock paper and scissors and when you choose the right one SP go right out the window.
To see what I'm talking about download this guys vids and watch them, trust me they are well worth the download:-
myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp
He uses cheap frigates and ships you can be fully effective with in a very short time and any excuses about needing billions of ISK and tens of millions of SP look pretty weak.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Seems 12 year old griefers join games so they can do this very thing. Tell me; what is the appeal?
Is it the fact that you are anonymous, causing trouble, that gives you a thrill? I left WoW after 2 years of playing because of players with this very same mentality. Please: What is it that motivates a person to do this?
Dude get a grip. I think he was simpling making a point that in EVE you can be an ass and get away with it. 90% of EVE has done an ass hole move before and the 10% that havent quit or are the ones that get pushed around. EVE in a cold dark universe. The last thing I want is for Every alliance to be allied because they are to nice to attack anyone.
Nearly every war in eve has been provoked by ass holes doing something stupid.
You could take out the "in eve” and let that sentence stand alone. That pretty much describes what’s so great about this game. The way is simulates real tension in a fantasy setting.
When I first started I felt much the same way a Piivot about EVE's Grievers, but over time you learn to respect people for having the gall to really make you work for it. EVE doesn’t have a serious PVE challenge that confronts players, and without pirates it would be a fairly boring game. Someone said being a griever says something about the person’s personality (or something to that effect), but I don't think that’s the case in EVE. One of the reason some people are drawn to this is because it adds so much to the game and everything legal is complicated or hard.
Hmmmm....Sounds familiar
if you feel griefed, you're doing it wrong
if u get blown up, you're doing it wrong
if u can't afford to pvp, you're doing it wrong
if you take offense at others for pvp-ing in a pvp game, you're doing it wrong
if u blow up someone's ship, and get hatemail, get smack, or that adrenaline rush that all pvpers crave then you're doing at least 1 thing rite
conclusion: you're doing it wrong until u start having fun
edit: spelling
I for one love to grief Griefers, it's so much fun when you can turn a griefer into the cry-baby. Take this scenario for example:
Griefer: "Give me all you have and I'll let you live"
Me: "BWAHAHAHAHA"
Griefer: "I'm flashing red better give it to me"
Me:"Doesn't that mean Concord is coming to get you?"
Griefer: *grifer shoots
Me: *Armor tank (although mining in a Myrm)
Griefer: *Blown up by Concord
Griefer: "I'll be back with 5 of my friends"
Me: "I'll be in Jita if u need me"
Now I believe i'm being watched.. will soon be flying assaults anyway so wth.
This is not a game.
If some of you have missed my point:
I love EVE just like it is. Been playing for 4 years, have tens of billions of isk and assets. I love the fact that there are pirates and griefers and scammers in the game, I'd quit if they weren't there- they are the only decent competition. I DO NOT take offense at being attacked/scammed/ganked whatever if another player is good enough to get me. I live in 0.0 probably 90% of the time and do not run missions or mine.
Simply stated, I LOVE the hardcore nature of EVE. I have simply been making the point that those who take pleasure (even virtually) in domination of others through violent action are IN MY OPINION fundamentally different from those of us who would prefer success through constructive processes.
Yes, I do prefer to view eve as a social experiment primarily. Ask yourself what keeps you playing year after year.. is it game mechanics?? or is it the nuances of human interaction that you get to experience on a daily basis in the game?
If you lack the synaptic firepower to understand how I can simultaneously love pirates and their ilk for being the way they are in the game AND make an observation/ judgement about the personality types of those players... well, I'm sorry.. can't help you much there.
I participate in this thread because I find the discussion interesting. What I write here is OPINION and CONJECTURE just like everything the rest of the contributors write.. some of it intentionally provocative. If you tell me that you are a pirate and you don't understand that, pardon me while I enjoy the irony.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
U really play eve? So where did this imaginary scenario take place? Hi sec?
people only turn flashy AFTER theyve fired or stolen from you.. or have too low a sec status to enter highsec, thus rendering your point moot
U really play eve? So where did this imaginary scenario take place? Hi sec?
people only turn flashy AFTER theyve fired or stolen from you.. or have too low a sec status to enter highsec, thus rendering your point moot
I agree this scenario sounds like something you made up by reading forums. What kind of Griefer(pirate) says "I WIll be back with 5 of my friends?"
Someone might have stolen from his can. That person would then show up flashy to him. The game mechanics would not let that person shoot at him though. Sounds like a wanna be pirate did not understand how the game worked.
U really play eve? So where did this imaginary scenario take place? Hi sec?
people only turn flashy AFTER theyve fired or stolen from you.. or have too low a sec status to enter highsec, thus rendering your point moot
Can also set up your overview to have the icon flash depending on certain conditions....i.e. a security status of -5 or worse or if they have a bounty on them. /shrug Maybe he config'd his overview to indicate something like that. I would lmao though if someone said to me, "I'll be back with 5 of my friends." That sounds a bit far fetched.