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The worlds most played MMO axes the last vestige of economy!
emperorvl
Member Posts: 103
Here it is folks!
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/222786
actually the links to the specific info I'm trying to show you have been "axed". But it was stated under HUNTER changes that the ammunition will no longer be a stackable resource and that the individual bullet system is gone. I'm assuming that the change will be similar to the 'thrown weapons' change a great while ago.
Now back to my point; with ammunition finally hollywoodized into a unlimited chunk of bullet you have seen the basis of 'good economy' thrown out the window. You may argue that this happened long ago with the limited items that can actually be sold on the AH however nothing 'throws the dirt on the coffin' more in principle for an economy then removing limited ammunition. How do I better explain myself. Lets start with SWG. Back in the early days of SWG a great mob of crafters went to work on the servers and set the foundation for the economy based system that SWG was first created to be. However after a period of time the economy stagnated and people began to see their shops drain away the resources without any good sales. This was not the case for the leading crafters on servers who had assembled a good team of resource gatherers and made quality products (which inevitably led to the stagnate sales of the medium quality goods). Well time went on and people became frustrated. The call went out to the developers and a fix was needed. We all know the history. The 'fix' destroyed the game. Prior to the fix becoming implemented I had suggested on several forums and even attempted to suggest to the devs that the fix was very simple. BEANS BULLETS AND BANDAIDS the economy of war.
Its like this - gun totin "Joe" does not have much cash and needs rounds for his gattling cannon. He goes to the AH and buys out the cheap rounds and just blasts at a higher rate. Once he starts making the bucks off his kills he spends a bit more on the expensive rounds and after a moment of ecstacy unloading them he's broke and has to go back to the walmart rounds he knows of -at a shop near him. In this scenario both the mediocre crafter and the quality crafter see the goods ship. Back to SWG we had a plethora of items that could have been put into this field. Cheap heal kits that did the job and the expensive ones that gave you a boost. Thus the economy continues and theres money to made/spent on whatever comes available. Nothing lame ducks and economy more than repairing gear. The spent ammunition needs to be replaced, the bandaids (potions) needs to be replaced.
Back to my main point the final nail in the coffin for anything that represented an economy in Wow is the removal of spent ammunition. While it is true that economy is not the goal of Wow one may never claim that wow ever had an economy. To us players that enjoy economy as a "part" of an MMO you now have undeniable evidence that blizzard ain't into it.
Cheerio!
Comments
I actually do not think this will effect the WoW economy, the WoW economy is mainly made up of rare drops, some crafted gear, and services like enchanting. Ammunition was never traded much because you can get it rather cheaply from the vendors, so it isn't hard to come by, it is just a money sink for hunters, the purchase of ammunition never helped the economy in the first place.
That is if they actually do make ammo unlimited.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Are you serious?
WoW was designed to not have much of an economy. As such, it's not really possible to damage the economy much. It's kind of like trying to kill a rock.
Everquest rangers got Endless Quiver too at some point. It means they had an endless supply of basic arrows. It didn't affect the economy at all. QQ more though, I'm sure Blizzard cares.
QQ more? haha your a class act. My point is that whether or not the economy is affected the basic "principle" of economy is finally out the door. For those of you that haven't gone cross-eyed watching your SP or AP since that has become what Wow is about you may be able to relate that the basics of economy which should be an intregal part of an MMO is gone, and in its place the very concept of EZ play and thanks for the sub. Wait til the next expansion which allows you to change your lip color 10 more shades.
Give me a break. Buying arrows from an NPC is not an "economy". It's just a pain in the ass.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
IIRC arrows/bullets are not crafted and therefore doesn't harm the economy.
While an economy is one of the things that an MMORPG can do for content, games don't really have to have an economy. That's kind of like how games don't have to have pvp, don't have to have instanced dungeons, or don't have to have guilds that serve much purpose other than a chat channel. A game can have all of those things, but doesn't need to.
Giving a game a deep economy intrinsically makes it something of a niche game. The problem is that most players know very little about economics. Having much of an economy gives players the chance to seriously mess themselves up via economic incompetence. Given the chance, a lot of players will, and then they'll complain about it, demanding that the company effectively remove the economy from the game. If the company doesn't, a lot of players will quit over it.
I'm going to assume you have not played WoW because if you h ad you'd know that you can't sell Ammo on the AH, or at the very least the best Ammo is soulbound.
So whats your point?
This changes the economy in no way what so ever...
Its almost like your looking for something to complain about. Why should hunters have to spent hundreds of gold just to be able to shoot their bow? Hardly fair when we're talking about a game as unrealistic and easy to play as WoW.
Buying ammo never seemed like it fit into the game anyway.
And your forgetting ONE big detail, this only effected HUNTERS, one class, your quoting other games where everyone could use a gun or where everyone had the option at least.
Your argument is totally off base and I almost find it alarming that you would miss the point by SO much.
>.>
They are not implementing infinite ammo next patch, stack size will be increased (probably tenfold at a guess) for the interim period between 3.10 to 3.11 presumably.
My main interest is what they will do with the craftable quivers/ammo pouches as well as what the plan will be for more interesting types of arrow (really miss the old stormpike/frostwolf arrows - nice cool blue glow effect). I know the idea is to give hunters the added pack space (much needed imo), so maybe they'll make 'em an echant type haste buff.
As said by others in this post, it will not even slightly dent the economy, although it may well piss off a few engineers and leatherworkers if blizz dont come up with added functionality for said products.
The game is however becoming a far leaner (read as dumbed down) affair. The 3.10 patch notes released earlier this week show a marked degree of streamlining for a few classes spells e.g combining effects from less used warlock debuffs and shaman totems.
Professions as a whole in wotlk have been fairly lacklustre and there has been zero indication so far as to what plan if any blizz has for them in the future. Crafting is a real biggy for me, if they don't sort something out before my next subs are due (april) I'll likely throw the towel in.
While an economy is one of the things that an MMORPG can do for content, games don't really have to have an economy. That's kind of like how games don't have to have pvp, don't have to have instanced dungeons, or don't have to have guilds that serve much purpose other than a chat channel. A game can have all of those things, but doesn't need to.
Giving a game a deep economy intrinsically makes it something of a niche game. The problem is that most players know very little about economics. Having much of an economy gives players the chance to seriously mess themselves up via economic incompetence. Given the chance, a lot of players will, and then they'll complain about it, demanding that the company effectively remove the economy from the game. If the company doesn't, a lot of players will quit over it.
Man what are these theme park games teaching people these days. Just sad
You say that as though it were ever otherwise. Right from release, crafting in WoW was little more than something else to grind levels in.
Man what are these theme park games teaching people these days. Just sad
It's not that this or that game teaches economic incompetence. Rather, it's something that most players haven't studied, and few would pick up in a game even if it were designed for it. If a game were designed around classifying finite groups, that would lose the overwhelming majority of potential players, too, simply because people wouldn't have any idea what to do.
You say that as though it were ever otherwise. Right from release, crafting in WoW was little more than something else to grind levels in.
Actually, the reason for wotlk's crafted armour being so lacklustre according to blue posters (not sure which one) was the fact that some tbc patterns were too good, especially some of the tailoring ones which lasted through to the early parts of MH/Black temple. Seems they could'nt be asked to reach some middle ground this time though....sheer laziness on their part. Guess they'd rather focus on shitty arenas and fucked up class balance.
I'm going to assume you have not played WoW because if you h ad you'd know that you can't sell Ammo on the AH, or at the very least the best Ammo is soulbound.
So whats your point?
This changes the economy in no way what so ever...
Its almost like your looking for something to complain about. Why should hunters have to spent hundreds of gold just to be able to shoot their bow? Hardly fair when we're talking about a game as unrealistic and easy to play as WoW.
Buying ammo never seemed like it fit into the game anyway.
And your forgetting ONE big detail, this only effected HUNTERS, one class, your quoting other games where everyone could use a gun or where everyone had the option at least.
Your argument is totally off base and I almost find it alarming that you would miss the point by SO much.
>.>
Actually, it's you who are out of date, Jerid. He's right that hunters have to go to engineers at the moment.
In BC, hunters got their ammunition from reputation vendors. If you didn't raid, the best you could manage was Thrallmar/Cenarion Exp ammo. If you did raid, you could get a succession of other ammunition to use. Each successive ammunition upgrade doubled the cost. Buying the best (which you were expected to do to maximized DPS) actually made it far more expensive to raid as a hunter than anybody else. And no, plate repairs didn't even come close.
In WotLK, that changed. Hunters no longer got ammunition from reputation. Instead, you either use the white ammo, or you use engineer-created ammo. Amazingly, this made raid costs far, far worse. The difference between the two is massive. Raiders have no choice but to buy it if they want good DPS, and they use it in huge quantities. To give you an idea, most raiders I know go through _more_ than a full 28-slot pouch/quiver in a full clear of a raid like Naxx, and this is without wipes.
So here is how the range looks for what hunters paid to raid:
On a server with a very robust economy with a lot of price competition, hunters pay very much more than anybody else in the raid, excluding possibly the MT. On a server with a poor economy, hunters pay ridiculously more than anybody else in the raid, including plate wearers after multiple wipes.
You are right in general, though, Jerid. The OP is just crying.
A lot of engineers are QQ'ing horribly because their golden goose is being killed. Even though this seems like a thread about the decline of ingame economies, this is another QQ thread. It's just difficult to spot if you don't play WoW seriously, but there are about ten thousand threads like this on the WoW forums so far. Of course, a lot of hunters are rejoicing and rightfully so. Anyhow, mister engi OP, WoW is not a crafting game. Even if it was, you still have items to make. Let me explain some things to you about engi, OP.
Engineering has one of the most powerful arena advantages, by far. The only thing which even comes close to engi's arena advantage is JC, and even so, JC just offers stat bonuses for the most part. Engi offers an entirely new tactical option which, for specs lacking anything like it, is hugely powerful. Engi is definitely far from out of luck on the PvP side.
On the crafting (and selling) side, despite the constant bitching on the forums, engis are one of the best-off professions.
Lets talk about guns. Engi guns were never meant to be best-in-slot for hunters, but they are the best thing you can get before raids (the gem slot makes it superior to the UP xbow). The very best entry-level weapon for a class. Wow, such a bad thing to sell. Oh, this is also the best weapon for non-raiding PvP hunters who can't get to deadly arena ratings. We all know there are so many deadly-rated hunters at the moment. For non-hunters? Engi guns _are_ best in slot for tanks. Wow, best in slot for even the highest-level raiders. How terrible! An item which every raiding tank _MUST BUY_. You can only make a profit of a few hundred G on it, WAHHH. Oh. And the DPS gun is very close to best-in-slot for non-hunter DPS. Guns _alone_ blow away blacksmiths, for instance, who only get an entry-level weapon and shield for a handful of specs (most Titansteel is not even useful as entry-level weapon or armor for raiders).
Aside from guns, you have scopes. That's something every hunter _must_ buy, and we all know WoW is a neverending treadmill of gear upgrades, so they will always sell.
Engineers also sell potion injectors, which every serious raider of certain classes is going to buy. I'm talking about the ones whose inv space will be eaten up by carrying an off set.
And for raid utility, engineers only offer the following:
The only way to repair, sell, and buy reagents inside a raid is having an engi. This is widely considered a must-have. Do you know of any other profession which a raid as a whole will thank you for having? Oh, that's right. The others mostly just offer some self-only stat buffs as advantages. They also get the only way to receive items in mail inside a raid. This sounds useless, but it suddenly becomes awesome if you run out of consumables and need an alt to mail you something. Very useful for guilds who don't have a raid on farm status, which is a lot of lower-level guilds. On a much smaller note, engineers are pretty much your only shot at hastened wipe recovery if you lack a shaman (or your shaman's res is on CD), since engineering is the only way for a class with a complete aggro drop (mages, hunters, rogues) to res. On top of all of this, having an engi in the guild is the only way for most hunters to afford crafted ammo at all, since many servers have massive gaps between material costs and AH prices.
Beyond that, engineers have by far the _coolest_ items in the game. I paid 15k for the mats for my motorcycle, and I'm not even an engi. If the engi wasn't a friendly acquaintance of mine, they could have charged me 500 to even make it, and I would have paid. You also get an interesting flying mount. You also get some novelty items from goblin or gnome engi. Only way to deal siege damage without a vehicle or bomb is as an engi, plus you get numerous other interesting items (x-ray goggles, for the waggle lovers out there).
Yep! Nothing for engis to sell! They're so bad off. Imbecile.
The only crafting system worse than something stupid that you can grind levels in is one that is something stupid that you have to grind levels in.
as a hunter all i can say is about god damn time.
my bill on a weekly basis was
1. ammunition cost about double what it cost me to learn a new skill
2. feeding my pet. Sure there was cooking and the odd drop or two, but the little bastard was picky and i ended up using the vendors, this cost me about 5g per week
3. skills (same price as every other class)
4. mount/gear grind
buying ammunition, feeding a pet, buying new skills and trying to afford a mount as a hunter is about as crazy as it gets when it comes to budgeting in this game. compare that to a warlock and you would see a huge difference in the amount of gold each character has.
anyway it is a good move in my mind.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Blizzard has slowly been getting rid of the 'annoying' things people hate to do. First Blessings got longer duration, no ammo needed, thrown weapon change, etc. Nothing that really effects the gameplay much. It just makes it less frustrating. This can be good and can be bad. Overall WoW is already pretty dumbed-down and simple. The majority of older MMO players (myself included) don't like WoW just because it's too easy. We're used to the days of death penalties, frustration, and getting lost. WoW is easy enough a monkey could play it. Blizzard's goal now is to make it easy enough that a rock could play it...
Not to be whiny but there a some asian MMOs like perfect world that have more players than Wow so the headline is kinda wrong.
While an economy is one of the things that an MMORPG can do for content, games don't really have to have an economy. That's kind of like how games don't have to have pvp, don't have to have instanced dungeons, or don't have to have guilds that serve much purpose other than a chat channel. A game can have all of those things, but doesn't need to.
Giving a game a deep economy intrinsically makes it something of a niche game. The problem is that most players know very little about economics. Having much of an economy gives players the chance to seriously mess themselves up via economic incompetence. Given the chance, a lot of players will, and then they'll complain about it, demanding that the company effectively remove the economy from the game. If the company doesn't, a lot of players will quit over it.
Well first, thanks for the competent response the rest forgot to wipe while dumping in the thread. Now taking what you've stated I disagree that players will fail if they don't know anything about economics. I've played MMOs from the days that they existed and trading is something that is not exclusive to niche games.
This.
The WoW devs slowly release new recipes over the months, giving everybody something to focus on in terms of upgrades. This keeps the economy strong and active. Ammo will have no effect on the economy.
All it is really, is streamlining a very small aspect of the game that mainly affects only one class.
Just another way WoW has become streamlined to become rediculously easy and casual player friendly. The game loses any difficulty it had remaining as the days go by.
WoW has become the easiest MMO on the market. Unfortunately, 11million players subscribed suggest thats just exactly what the majority of players want in their video games.
Oh please, WoW was a casual game right from the start. You need to keep offering incentive to keep new players interested in the game. Every MMO does that, even hardcore MMO. It's spelled "ridiculous" btw.
A minor bit of crafting or trading may not confuse people, but if you have to do complex accounting to keep track of labor, materials, taxes, and the value of the time you spend on it, that will. The same applies to having to understand why supply and demand should make prices on one item go up or down, or why some items should have prices a lot more volatile than others.
A game economy based around high entry barriers that make it so that only a tiny fraction of the playerbase is able to craft a given item is very unlikely to have much depth to it. That's going to be a contest of grinding to meet the market entry barriers, not actual economic decisionmaking.
Besides, can you name a game with a deep economy that isn't a niche game?
Below the level cap, perhaps. But having to schedule your life around being in raid instances for hours at a time is not a casual activity.