Originally posted by raylone13 Originally posted by Theocritus Originally posted by pyrofreak The closest you can get to this, currently, is FFXI. Although you can still solo some, it's extremely tedius for most classes, and downright impossible for others.
I know most people like to recommend FFXI for players that want to group only but the game looks severly dated and I found it extremely boring when I tried the trial.......
honestly do you think any new game maker with a decent budget going make a game that A gruop only like ffxi or B more like WoW with around 11 mill subs hmmm what going make money ......... dont think too much
Lets be clear right now- no other mmo will get 11m subs unless it's a new offering from Blizzard. A subscription level of 600k which FFXI had is actually very reasonable. What a developer decided to develop would all be according to what vision he/she had. To suggest only a solo-based mmorpg is successful is particuarly short-sighted especially if there exists very popular multiplayer team-based(aka group structure) games. The world does not turn black/white according to one release in a genre.(which it should be noted actually turns into a very group-based game at it's end game)
I haven't ever played it but isn't DDO all group only?
Yes and no.
There are now solo settings on quite a few quests in the early game and you can bring in hirelings to fill out a party. It is also possible to solo a lot of the content if you plan your build carefully, know the quests well, and know how to use the twitch combat to beat groups of mobs that would squash you if you tried to stand toe to toe. It is a very slow way to progress and expensive, but a real solo challenge, considering most MMO solo content is a bit of a joke difficulty wise.
From the mid game onward it becomes very group focused as the quests can get hours in length, longer for some raids. Although you will always get some mad person who works out how to solo a raid (great video somewhere of a ranger tumbling and dodging the blows of the Warforged Titan, very clever).
Summary it is a very social group focused game very much in the spirit of PnP D&D with your mates around a table. The LFG facility is pretty good and most people do group.
Probably worth mentioning explorer areas which are your normal MMO zone content with spawns, rares, explorer points etc. Plus some collectables you need to unlock content, these can be soloed a lot easier, although faster and more fun in a group.
Always a free trial, DDO is a very different MMO that matches the OPs needs pretty closely.
p.s. You only get xp from finishing a quest not killing mobs, so stealth can have a practical use, although you have to work at it as mobs will react to what they can hear as well as see, and they will sometimes go for reinforcements rather than just attacking.
I enjoy the random meetings of people in mmorpgs. I do not enjoy grouping. The moment I group the time is not my own. Often I'm stuck waiting at a bind stone for some guy to get finished eating. The moment the guy finishes eating the group leader disconnects. When the group leader finally comes back on another has to log cause its too late etc etc. The number of good experiences I have had in groups is definitely eclipsed by the negative ones. I know its not like that for everyone. But that is how it has been with me.
I would not play a game without solo content ...period.
A think a game without solo content would really struggle to hold a subscriber base.
But that is just my personal thoughts on the subject.
last thing I want to do when i get home from work and log on is wait for 1-3 hours for a group.
Thats because they're level based mmorpgs, I never had that experience on SWG because you could join the game and that same day be playing with veterans. My friend joined SWG when I was trying to get him into it in October 2005 (little did I know the NGE would come in Nov) and I taught him the basics and got him a home and armour and a vehicle and he was in dungeons with us instantly having fun the same day he joined. Normally when you join a level based mmorpg you have to spend a month grinding on your own because the whole world is completly useless to the whole top heavy population who never go back to them areas.
Side ways progression is the future, no more of this upwards bullshit.
I enjoy the random meetings of people in mmorpgs. I do not enjoy grouping. The moment I group the time is not my own. Often I'm stuck waiting at a bind stone for some guy to get finished eating. The moment the guy finishes eating the group leader disconnects. When the group leader finally comes back on another has to log cause its too late etc etc. The number of good experiences I have had in groups is definitely eclipsed by the negative ones. I know its not like that for everyone. But that is how it has been with me. I would not play a game without solo content ...period. A think a game without solo content would really struggle to hold a subscriber base. But that is just my personal thoughts on the subject.
It depends how the game is setup because if it takes forever to find a group then you often have that experience. In Everquest 2 after WoW launched, the game died and EQ2 you couldn't do anything without a group. So you spent all day looking for a group and by the time you got a full group together, people had to leave to do real life stuff.
Mmorpgs need to sort out the population balance issue so you can instantly get into groups and they need to have dynamic AI like say what Left 4 Dead has where if someone leaves then the game will compensate for that and make things easier.
Sadly though for aslong as level based mmorpgs are here, then we wont get any of this.
A game with no solo content would fail very very hard. Even if you group, there's a tendency to log in before your friends do or to wait for your group and what have you.. You need solo content, because it's an integral part to stay excited about the game, the area and to fill in those times where you simply don't have a group. A game where grouping is required for tougher content, yes, a game where you don't allow anyone to solo, no, big mistake. And I say that with years of EQ experience, where grouping was a necessity for most content.
Ever play Call of Duty or Battlefield? What do you do in those games if you log on and can't get in a group? Well, in case you haven't played those games I'll tell you. Nothing. You log off and do something else, because the game doesn't work solo. Both of those games online have ZERO solo content. None, nada, there isn't any. How come someone can play one of those games with zero solo content, but they couldn't play an MMO with zero solo content?
As far as needing high player populations, you only need enough players to make the game profitiable in terms of economics. In terms of game play, only server populations count, not total players.
If your server is full, it doesn't really matter to you how many servers there are. For example if I played on a full WoW server, it would make zero diffference to me there were a 100 other WoW servers with 11 million people on them, or only one other server, or no other servers. My world would be full regardless. If I play WoW I don't play with all 11 million WoW players. I only play with the people on my server.
I enjoy the random meetings of people in mmorpgs. I do not enjoy grouping. The moment I group the time is not my own. Often I'm stuck waiting at a bind stone for some guy to get finished eating. The moment the guy finishes eating the group leader disconnects. When the group leader finally comes back on another has to log cause its too late etc etc. The number of good experiences I have had in groups is definitely eclipsed by the negative ones. I know its not like that for everyone. But that is how it has been with me. I would not play a game without solo content ...period. A think a game without solo content would really struggle to hold a subscriber base. But that is just my personal thoughts on the subject.
That's perfectly fine. You would hate this game and you wouldn't play it.
Honestly, I think that's why we see so many mediocre games today. The developers all think they can get WoW numbers, so they go for the lowest common demoninator, which makes for a bland game that doesn't really cater to anyone.
They want you, so they listen to this post and include solo content. Which ruins the group game for me. Then they listen to the PvP crowd. And the Crowd that doesn't want FFA PvP, and try to put something in that pleases both. Then they listen to the crafters, then they listen to the explorers that want a big world, and on and on, till they have a game trying to cater to everyone, which really pleases no one.
And that's what the recent releases have been IMO. They try to be WoW, try to please everyone, and still fail. So the big risk in not catering to the solo crowd isn't that big IMO. They don't come out in droves for any game except WoW anyway.
There is a bias you can't get around. All games I like would do well, All games I don't prefer would fail and struggle to get a player base. That's normal, and you see it on every subject, FFA PvP, crafting, player owned housing, etc.
This would be a game with a smaller budget, that caters to a smaller crowd. I agree, if you spent money on it thinking you would get WoW numbers, you would go bankrupt.
The lack of solo content has kiiled off many a big budget MMO. EQ2 and DDO are prime examples. Large portions of solo content were included after release because of massive subscription losses. If it wasn't for WOW game design would still revolve around this outdated forced grouping model. Those days are gone because its not where the "market" is. If you think any large game studio is going to invest tens of millions to make an oldstyle forced grouping only MMO you are dreaming. But hey dream all you like. Game design is a business, not a charity for lonely teenagers who want company.
I think this is where many people in this thread get lost.
I"m not in any way interested in forcing anyone to group with me. I'm not in any way interested in forcing anyone to socialize with me.
I like playing frisbee. you throw a frisbee back and forth between at least two people. We're not talking while we throw the frisbee. I'm not forcing anyone to be there. But without them I am not going to throw the frisbee to myself.
For me, grouping and doing content in a coordinated manner is fun. It's like playing frisbee. Solo content in MMO's for me, is like simply throwing the frisbee on the ground in front of your feet over and over. Pointless, and completely void of fun.
So I don't want your company, I want a fun game. Some people enjoy chess. It's not for the company, but because of the gameplay. It's fun against another human, boring against a computer. I don't know how else to explain it, but in any case thinking I want to force someone to keep me company is missing the entire point of the thread.
Socializing doesn't require grouping. You can chat in the general channle while you solo. Why would I need to force anyone to group to solialize? That makes little sense to me.
In my opinion OP's idea won't work. It can be done, but it is not a good business approach. I am 100% sure no developer will design such a "zero solo content" these days as they know most people do not like to group all the time.
Although I think a 100% group game is a bad idea I think that games which really encourage grouping all the time are good for the genre.
I played FFXI for about 18 months after launch and loved it but left due to too much LFG. At first I found other games more fun and accessible but after about 3 years I decided that there was just too little grouping.
I'm now back with FFXI. Sometimes I am LFG longer than I'd like, but they've given the game some soloability, and to be honest I'd rather wait to group in this game than any other. There is far too little grouping in most MMOs in my opinion.
All these solo MMOs are pretty lame group experiences most of the time. People rush to max level and find it quicker to do so when playing alone.
Sadly there will never be a "zero solo content" MMORPG again. Blizzard totally shifted the way MMO's are to be produced. I miss the old days like EQ sititng in Sebelis /ooc'ing for a group or forming a LDoN group sitting at the camp in BB. That ship has sailed and its time to adapt to the new way.
Zero solo content would be totally bad for business, as it only caters to the hard-core or group based player base. Lots of people don't like to form groups or wait for something to be formed. When people log in, they want to dive into something right away. Which is why the LFG tools, if done right, is a great way to find group content while you occupy yourself with the solo content while waiting for something.
Its a shame because alot of the MMO's out are very theme-park based. Go here, kill this, loot 4 of these, return to NPC01. While it does get bland and boring, its the way MMO's are now a days, hopefully someone will come out with something new, innovative, and able to hold the subs 2-3 months after its release.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sadly there will never be a "zero solo content" MMORPG again. Blizzard totally shifted the way MMO's are to be produced. I miss the old days like EQ sititng in Sebelis /ooc'ing for a group or forming a LDoN group sitting at the camp in BB. That ship has sailed and its time to adapt to the new way.
Actually, I think it will go the other way. What's happening now? Make Tabula Rasa, try to make it solo friendly, fail, lose 100 million dollars.
Make WAR, try to make it solo friendly like WoW, only get 300K subs.
Hero Engine cost max 2 million. There's a pretty big modeling pipeline in Shanghai where you can get reasonable models and motion capture for animation.
Make a game for less, target your audience, and make the best game ever for just that audience. Go for the WoW numbers, and you fail.
I don't think we'll see WoW killers in the future. Instead I think we'll see profitable niche games. Games for sci fi fans, games for PvP fans, games for crafting fans, games for fans of group based games, games for the RvR crowd, games for players that want a "sandbox", games for players that want l33t player skillz twitch combat, etc. And the way to make that game is to focus on that audience, and tell everyone else to screw off.
Listening to the cries of, but MOST people won't like that, you'll never get WoW numbers with that design, is why we are currently getting tons 'o crap games.
I don't think I understand why people think that this sort of thing has never been done before, and isn't successful.
FF11 has almost zero solo content. If you want to progress within the game you need to find at least one other person to do it with. That game has had a steady 500k subs for what? The past 7 years.
Hell look at Everquest, you couldn't sneeze in that game without a buddy holding your hanky. Look how popular that was.
All of these games with virtually no solo content do or did just fine. Sure there are/were people who multi-boxed their own groups. Sure there are/were anti-social jerks. But these people never got/get very far, because you are actually accountable for your actions. Imagine that, on the internet! I think that there is pleanty of room for improvement in this area.
I don't think I understand why people think that this sort of thing has never been done before, and isn't successful.
FF11 has almost zero solo content. If you want to progress within the game you need to find at least one other person to do it with. That game has had a steady 500k subs for what? The past 7 years.
Hell look at Everquest, you couldn't sneeze in that game without a buddy holding your hanky. Look how popular that was.
All of these games with virtually no solo content do or did just fine. Sure there are/were people who multi-boxed their own groups. Sure there are/were anti-social jerks. But these people never got/get very far, because you are actually accountable for your actions. Imagine that, on the internet! I think that there is pleanty of room for improvement in this area.
The thing is while FF11 and Everquest was successful as a group centric game, they both still had some solo content to them. not much and it was hard solo,but it was still there. SO people still had things they could do if they had problems finding groups or limited play time for the day/night.
Even back in UO you could solo to an extent. There has never been a MMORPG made where you could not solo some.
Wow I love ignorant people posting ignorant things about forced grouping especially once people have pointed out that it has been done and works. Like "forced grouping would be a death sentence" "Forced grouping could never work" hate to break it to you guys but like everyone has been saying FFXI is forced grouping past level 10, and thats to learn your class. Its been out longer than WoW. Still at 500k subs far from a failure. The froced grouping in this games makes one hell of a strong community. There is not a game out there that is even on the same ranking scale in terms of community as FFXI has. I am sure if SE's new MMO follows in FFXI footsteps that it will have a strong following, because a huge majority of players have moved on because we beat that game to death and needed a new challenge. Sadly I have yet to find that new challenge. Every MMO in the past 3-4 years have been a joke.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I think this is where many people in this thread get lost. I"m not in any way interested in forcing anyone to group with me. I'm not in any way interested in forcing anyone to socialize with me. I like playing frisbee. you throw a frisbee back and forth between at least two people. We're not talking while we throw the frisbee. I'm not forcing anyone to be there. But without them I am not going to throw the frisbee to myself. For me, grouping and doing content in a coordinated manner is fun. It's like playing frisbee. Solo content in MMO's for me, is like simply throwing the frisbee on the ground in front of your feet over and over. Pointless, and completely void of fun. So I don't want your company, I want a fun game. Some people enjoy chess. It's not for the company, but because of the gameplay. It's fun against another human, boring against a computer. I don't know how else to explain it, but in any case thinking I want to force someone to keep me company is missing the entire point of the thread. Socializing doesn't require grouping. You can chat in the general channle while you solo. Why would I need to force anyone to group to solialize? That makes little sense to me.
It depends on what you mean to socialize. To me it means "take part in social activities, to interact with others". Grouping is socializing with others in a game to me, and I believe it means the same to other players as well. In MMOs I group with people I like, guildies, my friends. I tend to avoid pugs because you never know what kind of people will be in the group with you. That's based on past experiences I've had in pugs.
When I group with friends it doesn't matter to me whether we do solo or group content, harvesting, pvp, whatever. The fun I get is from doing content with people who's company I enjoy. I wouldn't want to group with someone who didn't want my company.
I would never play a game with only group content. I want variety in my MMOs. If my friends are not around, I prefer to solo for the most part. That doesn't mean I never group or pug. But I don't want to be dependent on strangers for my enjoyment of a game.
It depends on what you mean to socialize. To me it means "take part in social activities, to interact with others". Grouping is socializing with others in a game to me, and I believe it means the same to other players as well. In MMOs I group with people I like, guildies, my friends. I tend to avoid pugs because you never know what kind of people will be in the group with you. That's based on past experiences I've had in pugs.
When I group with friends it doesn't matter to me whether we do solo or group content, harvesting, pvp, whatever. The fun I get is from doing content with people who's company I enjoy. I wouldn't want to group with someone who didn't want my company.
I would never play a game with only group content. I want variety in my MMOs. If my friends are not around, I prefer to solo for the most part. That doesn't mean I never group or pug. But I don't want to be dependent on strangers for my enjoyment of a game.
Well you certainly CAN socialize in a group. But you can also just keep you mouth shut and do the quest or grind the mobs in a group, which doesn't seem like "socializing" to me.
Everyone has a different play style. I like to play with PUGS. I think it's the most fun you can have in an MMORPG.
I'm never upset because people in a PUG turn out to be asshats. It's fun to get a great PUG that works like a well oiled machine within a few minutes, with pleasant friendly people.
It's just as fun for me to get in a PUG with some asshats that get your entire part wiped.
In fact, that's the thing that makes the game interesting to me.
If I just wanted to build my character, and work through the content, I"d play something like Fallout 3, which is a great single player game. It's the best thing I"ve played since KOTOR.
I don't think I understand why people think that this sort of thing has never been done before, and isn't successful.
FF11 has almost zero solo content. If you want to progress within the game you need to find at least one other person to do it with. That game has had a steady 500k subs for what? The past 7 years.
Hell look at Everquest, you couldn't sneeze in that game without a buddy holding your hanky. Look how popular that was.
All of these games with virtually no solo content do or did just fine. Sure there are/were people who multi-boxed their own groups. Sure there are/were anti-social jerks. But these people never got/get very far, because you are actually accountable for your actions. Imagine that, on the internet! I think that there is pleanty of room for improvement in this area.
The thing is while FF11 and Everquest was successful as a group centric game, they both still had some solo content to them. not much and it was hard solo,but it was still there. SO people still had things they could do if they had problems finding groups or limited play time for the day/night.
Even back in UO you could solo to an extent. There has never been a MMORPG made where you could not solo some.
You are correct. No MMORPG like the one I've described in this thread has ever been made.
EQ2 BTW have solo content but almost no-one plays it because group content is great while solo content suck, you see where they are aiming at.
I have played eq2 since beta and thats the reason i stick with it, while its catered to the solo whores a bit lately its still a great group oriented game ... especially the last expac, amazing group content.
Truth be told I don't mind the solo content, I understand the need for it and i understand sometimes peoples play times are erratic and grouping is just not possible. But I think games now have swung WAY too much in favor of the PURE solo player, the player that will NEVER EVER group the type that will abandon quests before grouping with someone to complete it(and yes those types are out there).
I see games now and they almost penalize you for grouping, instead of rewarding you for it.
EQ2 BTW have solo content but almost no-one plays it because group content is great while solo content suck, you see where they are aiming at.
I have played eq2 since beta and thats the reason i stick with it, while its catered to the solo whores a bit lately its still a great group oriented game ... especially the last expac, amazing group content.
Truth be told I don't mind the solo content, I understand the need for it and i understand sometimes peoples play times are erratic and grouping is just not possible. But I think games now have swung WAY too much in favor of the PURE solo player, the player that will NEVER EVER group the type that will abandon quests before grouping with someone to complete it(and yes those types are out there).
I see games now and they almost penalize you for grouping, instead of rewarding you for it.
A bit off topic but EQ2 had a bunch of loot whores. You'd run into the "need before greed" types. You're in a zone where all the good drops are for a particular class. And that class would whine NBG every time, even though other people in the group might be dead broke and could really use the item for some gold pieces.
I really liked the DDO way of doing loot. A chest would drop, and everyone in the group got a pull from the chest. Your pull was geared toward your character, so healers didn't pull wizard items, and vice a versa. No one saw your loot pull from the chest, and you didn't see theirs. There was no arguing, no need before greed crap, or anything like that.
You say a lot about what you don't want (solo content) but not what you do...
If the point isn't to "level up and collect gear", for example, what is the point?
WoW has two games: one is the leveling game which you can do solo but it takes awhile longer than in groups. Two is the gear collecting. For gear collecting you need (good) groups. Nothing that you got solo is going to qualify you for heroics or pvp... Just get past the first game, which is quick and easy by most standards here, and you're good to go.
In a Call of Duty MMO I'd do very well solo so I don't understand your analogy.
Your game just sounds unnecessarily limiting and would turn off a lot of players for no apparent reason.
A bit off topic but EQ2 had a bunch of loot whores. You'd run into the "need before greed" types. You're in a zone where all the good drops are for a particular class. And that class would whine NBG every time, even though other people in the group might be dead broke and could really use the item for some gold pieces.
I
LOL there were so many ways to make EASY money in EQ2 that if you "needed" an item over someone in the group who could use the item I'd kick your ass from t he group so fast you wouldn't even know what hit you and make sure everyone else I knew wouldn't group with you.
I am consistently sitting at 500 plat with nearly all my masters (missing 3), and i have never stolen from a group member who could use an item that dropped so i could sell it .... thats bullshit. and I am not a crafter either.
eq2 did think loot system just fine ... if someone was broke its because they were new to the game or didnt know WTF they were doing.
A bit off topic but EQ2 had a bunch of loot whores. You'd run into the "need before greed" types. You're in a zone where all the good drops are for a particular class. And that class would whine NBG every time, even though other people in the group might be dead broke and could really use the item for some gold pieces.
I
LOL there were so many ways to make EASY money in EQ2 that if you "needed" an item over someone in the group who could use the item I'd kick your ass from t he group so fast you wouldn't even know what hit you and make sure everyone else I knew wouldn't group with you.
I am consistently sitting at 500 plat with nearly all my masters (missing 3), and i have never stolen from a group member who could use an item that dropped so i could sell it .... thats bullshit. and I am not a crafter either.
eq2 did think loot system just fine ... if someone was broke its because they were new to the game or didnt know WTF they were doing.
If you have 500 plat, then how can you "need" an item? you can buy it.
You say a lot about what you don't want (solo content) but not what you do... If the point isn't to "level up and collect gear", for example, what is the point? WoW has two games: one is the leveling game which you can do solo but it takes awhile longer than in groups. Two is the gear collecting. For gear collecting you need (good) groups. Nothing that you got solo is going to qualify you for heroics or pvp... Just get past the first game, which is quick and easy by most standards here, and you're good to go. In a Call of Duty MMO I'd do very well solo so I don't understand your analogy. Your game just sounds unnecessarily limiting and would turn off a lot of players for no apparent reason.
Have you actually played Call of Duty online? You join a team and play against another team.
If you played Call of Duty solo, you'd just stand around staring at the terrain with nothing to do. Yes, you'd do great. You wouldn't kill anyone, no one would kil you.
You'd walk around. And then you could walk around some more. You could fire your gun, at a wall or something, and then you could reload it. Great fun.
Comments
I know most people like to recommend FFXI for players that want to group only but the game looks severly dated and I found it extremely boring when I tried the trial.......
honestly do you think any new game maker with a decent budget going make a game that
A gruop only like ffxi or B more like WoW with around 11 mill subs hmmm what going make money ......... dont think too much
Lets be clear right now- no other mmo will get 11m subs unless it's a new offering from Blizzard. A subscription level of 600k which FFXI had is actually very reasonable. What a developer decided to develop would all be according to what vision he/she had. To suggest only a solo-based mmorpg is successful is particuarly short-sighted especially if there exists very popular multiplayer team-based(aka group structure) games. The world does not turn black/white according to one release in a genre.(which it should be noted actually turns into a very group-based game at it's end game)
Yes and no.
There are now solo settings on quite a few quests in the early game and you can bring in hirelings to fill out a party. It is also possible to solo a lot of the content if you plan your build carefully, know the quests well, and know how to use the twitch combat to beat groups of mobs that would squash you if you tried to stand toe to toe. It is a very slow way to progress and expensive, but a real solo challenge, considering most MMO solo content is a bit of a joke difficulty wise.
From the mid game onward it becomes very group focused as the quests can get hours in length, longer for some raids. Although you will always get some mad person who works out how to solo a raid (great video somewhere of a ranger tumbling and dodging the blows of the Warforged Titan, very clever).
Summary it is a very social group focused game very much in the spirit of PnP D&D with your mates around a table. The LFG facility is pretty good and most people do group.
Probably worth mentioning explorer areas which are your normal MMO zone content with spawns, rares, explorer points etc. Plus some collectables you need to unlock content, these can be soloed a lot easier, although faster and more fun in a group.
Always a free trial, DDO is a very different MMO that matches the OPs needs pretty closely.
p.s. You only get xp from finishing a quest not killing mobs, so stealth can have a practical use, although you have to work at it as mobs will react to what they can hear as well as see, and they will sometimes go for reinforcements rather than just attacking.
I enjoy the random meetings of people in mmorpgs. I do not enjoy grouping. The moment I group the time is not my own. Often I'm stuck waiting at a bind stone for some guy to get finished eating. The moment the guy finishes eating the group leader disconnects. When the group leader finally comes back on another has to log cause its too late etc etc. The number of good experiences I have had in groups is definitely eclipsed by the negative ones. I know its not like that for everyone. But that is how it has been with me.
I would not play a game without solo content ...period.
A think a game without solo content would really struggle to hold a subscriber base.
But that is just my personal thoughts on the subject.
yeah it was like that for me and FFXI, EQ2, AO
last thing I want to do when i get home from work and log on is wait for 1-3 hours for a group.
Thats because they're level based mmorpgs, I never had that experience on SWG because you could join the game and that same day be playing with veterans. My friend joined SWG when I was trying to get him into it in October 2005 (little did I know the NGE would come in Nov) and I taught him the basics and got him a home and armour and a vehicle and he was in dungeons with us instantly having fun the same day he joined. Normally when you join a level based mmorpg you have to spend a month grinding on your own because the whole world is completly useless to the whole top heavy population who never go back to them areas.
Side ways progression is the future, no more of this upwards bullshit.
It depends how the game is setup because if it takes forever to find a group then you often have that experience. In Everquest 2 after WoW launched, the game died and EQ2 you couldn't do anything without a group. So you spent all day looking for a group and by the time you got a full group together, people had to leave to do real life stuff.
Mmorpgs need to sort out the population balance issue so you can instantly get into groups and they need to have dynamic AI like say what Left 4 Dead has where if someone leaves then the game will compensate for that and make things easier.
Sadly though for aslong as level based mmorpgs are here, then we wont get any of this.
Ever play Call of Duty or Battlefield? What do you do in those games if you log on and can't get in a group? Well, in case you haven't played those games I'll tell you. Nothing. You log off and do something else, because the game doesn't work solo. Both of those games online have ZERO solo content. None, nada, there isn't any. How come someone can play one of those games with zero solo content, but they couldn't play an MMO with zero solo content?
As far as needing high player populations, you only need enough players to make the game profitiable in terms of economics. In terms of game play, only server populations count, not total players.
If your server is full, it doesn't really matter to you how many servers there are. For example if I played on a full WoW server, it would make zero diffference to me there were a 100 other WoW servers with 11 million people on them, or only one other server, or no other servers. My world would be full regardless. If I play WoW I don't play with all 11 million WoW players. I only play with the people on my server.
That's perfectly fine. You would hate this game and you wouldn't play it.
Honestly, I think that's why we see so many mediocre games today. The developers all think they can get WoW numbers, so they go for the lowest common demoninator, which makes for a bland game that doesn't really cater to anyone.
They want you, so they listen to this post and include solo content. Which ruins the group game for me. Then they listen to the PvP crowd. And the Crowd that doesn't want FFA PvP, and try to put something in that pleases both. Then they listen to the crafters, then they listen to the explorers that want a big world, and on and on, till they have a game trying to cater to everyone, which really pleases no one.
And that's what the recent releases have been IMO. They try to be WoW, try to please everyone, and still fail. So the big risk in not catering to the solo crowd isn't that big IMO. They don't come out in droves for any game except WoW anyway.
There is a bias you can't get around. All games I like would do well, All games I don't prefer would fail and struggle to get a player base. That's normal, and you see it on every subject, FFA PvP, crafting, player owned housing, etc.
This would be a game with a smaller budget, that caters to a smaller crowd. I agree, if you spent money on it thinking you would get WoW numbers, you would go bankrupt.
I think this is where many people in this thread get lost.
I"m not in any way interested in forcing anyone to group with me. I'm not in any way interested in forcing anyone to socialize with me.
I like playing frisbee. you throw a frisbee back and forth between at least two people. We're not talking while we throw the frisbee. I'm not forcing anyone to be there. But without them I am not going to throw the frisbee to myself.
For me, grouping and doing content in a coordinated manner is fun. It's like playing frisbee. Solo content in MMO's for me, is like simply throwing the frisbee on the ground in front of your feet over and over. Pointless, and completely void of fun.
So I don't want your company, I want a fun game. Some people enjoy chess. It's not for the company, but because of the gameplay. It's fun against another human, boring against a computer. I don't know how else to explain it, but in any case thinking I want to force someone to keep me company is missing the entire point of the thread.
Socializing doesn't require grouping. You can chat in the general channle while you solo. Why would I need to force anyone to group to solialize? That makes little sense to me.
In my opinion OP's idea won't work. It can be done, but it is not a good business approach. I am 100% sure no developer will design such a "zero solo content" these days as they know most people do not like to group all the time.
Although I think a 100% group game is a bad idea I think that games which really encourage grouping all the time are good for the genre.
I played FFXI for about 18 months after launch and loved it but left due to too much LFG. At first I found other games more fun and accessible but after about 3 years I decided that there was just too little grouping.
I'm now back with FFXI. Sometimes I am LFG longer than I'd like, but they've given the game some soloability, and to be honest I'd rather wait to group in this game than any other. There is far too little grouping in most MMOs in my opinion.
All these solo MMOs are pretty lame group experiences most of the time. People rush to max level and find it quicker to do so when playing alone.
Sadly there will never be a "zero solo content" MMORPG again. Blizzard totally shifted the way MMO's are to be produced. I miss the old days like EQ sititng in Sebelis /ooc'ing for a group or forming a LDoN group sitting at the camp in BB. That ship has sailed and its time to adapt to the new way.
Zero solo content would be totally bad for business, as it only caters to the hard-core or group based player base. Lots of people don't like to form groups or wait for something to be formed. When people log in, they want to dive into something right away. Which is why the LFG tools, if done right, is a great way to find group content while you occupy yourself with the solo content while waiting for something.
Its a shame because alot of the MMO's out are very theme-park based. Go here, kill this, loot 4 of these, return to NPC01. While it does get bland and boring, its the way MMO's are now a days, hopefully someone will come out with something new, innovative, and able to hold the subs 2-3 months after its release.
I'll take that bet. I think I can solo quite well in DF, esp if the world is as large as they say it is.
You'll never find me.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Actually, I think it will go the other way. What's happening now? Make Tabula Rasa, try to make it solo friendly, fail, lose 100 million dollars.
Make WAR, try to make it solo friendly like WoW, only get 300K subs.
Hero Engine cost max 2 million. There's a pretty big modeling pipeline in Shanghai where you can get reasonable models and motion capture for animation.
Make a game for less, target your audience, and make the best game ever for just that audience. Go for the WoW numbers, and you fail.
I don't think we'll see WoW killers in the future. Instead I think we'll see profitable niche games. Games for sci fi fans, games for PvP fans, games for crafting fans, games for fans of group based games, games for the RvR crowd, games for players that want a "sandbox", games for players that want l33t player skillz twitch combat, etc. And the way to make that game is to focus on that audience, and tell everyone else to screw off.
Listening to the cries of, but MOST people won't like that, you'll never get WoW numbers with that design, is why we are currently getting tons 'o crap games.
I don't think I understand why people think that this sort of thing has never been done before, and isn't successful.
FF11 has almost zero solo content. If you want to progress within the game you need to find at least one other person to do it with. That game has had a steady 500k subs for what? The past 7 years.
Hell look at Everquest, you couldn't sneeze in that game without a buddy holding your hanky. Look how popular that was.
All of these games with virtually no solo content do or did just fine. Sure there are/were people who multi-boxed their own groups. Sure there are/were anti-social jerks. But these people never got/get very far, because you are actually accountable for your actions. Imagine that, on the internet! I think that there is pleanty of room for improvement in this area.
Mne eto nado kak zuby v zadnitse.
The thing is while FF11 and Everquest was successful as a group centric game, they both still had some solo content to them. not much and it was hard solo,but it was still there. SO people still had things they could do if they had problems finding groups or limited play time for the day/night.
Even back in UO you could solo to an extent. There has never been a MMORPG made where you could not solo some.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Wow I love ignorant people posting ignorant things about forced grouping especially once people have pointed out that it has been done and works. Like "forced grouping would be a death sentence" "Forced grouping could never work" hate to break it to you guys but like everyone has been saying FFXI is forced grouping past level 10, and thats to learn your class. Its been out longer than WoW. Still at 500k subs far from a failure. The froced grouping in this games makes one hell of a strong community. There is not a game out there that is even on the same ranking scale in terms of community as FFXI has. I am sure if SE's new MMO follows in FFXI footsteps that it will have a strong following, because a huge majority of players have moved on because we beat that game to death and needed a new challenge. Sadly I have yet to find that new challenge. Every MMO in the past 3-4 years have been a joke.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
It depends on what you mean to socialize. To me it means "take part in social activities, to interact with others". Grouping is socializing with others in a game to me, and I believe it means the same to other players as well. In MMOs I group with people I like, guildies, my friends. I tend to avoid pugs because you never know what kind of people will be in the group with you. That's based on past experiences I've had in pugs.
When I group with friends it doesn't matter to me whether we do solo or group content, harvesting, pvp, whatever. The fun I get is from doing content with people who's company I enjoy. I wouldn't want to group with someone who didn't want my company.
I would never play a game with only group content. I want variety in my MMOs. If my friends are not around, I prefer to solo for the most part. That doesn't mean I never group or pug. But I don't want to be dependent on strangers for my enjoyment of a game.
Well you certainly CAN socialize in a group. But you can also just keep you mouth shut and do the quest or grind the mobs in a group, which doesn't seem like "socializing" to me.
Everyone has a different play style. I like to play with PUGS. I think it's the most fun you can have in an MMORPG.
I'm never upset because people in a PUG turn out to be asshats. It's fun to get a great PUG that works like a well oiled machine within a few minutes, with pleasant friendly people.
It's just as fun for me to get in a PUG with some asshats that get your entire part wiped.
In fact, that's the thing that makes the game interesting to me.
If I just wanted to build my character, and work through the content, I"d play something like Fallout 3, which is a great single player game. It's the best thing I"ve played since KOTOR.
The thing is while FF11 and Everquest was successful as a group centric game, they both still had some solo content to them. not much and it was hard solo,but it was still there. SO people still had things they could do if they had problems finding groups or limited play time for the day/night.
Even back in UO you could solo to an extent. There has never been a MMORPG made where you could not solo some.
You are correct. No MMORPG like the one I've described in this thread has ever been made.
I have played eq2 since beta and thats the reason i stick with it, while its catered to the solo whores a bit lately its still a great group oriented game ... especially the last expac, amazing group content.
Truth be told I don't mind the solo content, I understand the need for it and i understand sometimes peoples play times are erratic and grouping is just not possible. But I think games now have swung WAY too much in favor of the PURE solo player, the player that will NEVER EVER group the type that will abandon quests before grouping with someone to complete it(and yes those types are out there).
I see games now and they almost penalize you for grouping, instead of rewarding you for it.
I have played eq2 since beta and thats the reason i stick with it, while its catered to the solo whores a bit lately its still a great group oriented game ... especially the last expac, amazing group content.
Truth be told I don't mind the solo content, I understand the need for it and i understand sometimes peoples play times are erratic and grouping is just not possible. But I think games now have swung WAY too much in favor of the PURE solo player, the player that will NEVER EVER group the type that will abandon quests before grouping with someone to complete it(and yes those types are out there).
I see games now and they almost penalize you for grouping, instead of rewarding you for it.
A bit off topic but EQ2 had a bunch of loot whores. You'd run into the "need before greed" types. You're in a zone where all the good drops are for a particular class. And that class would whine NBG every time, even though other people in the group might be dead broke and could really use the item for some gold pieces.
I really liked the DDO way of doing loot. A chest would drop, and everyone in the group got a pull from the chest. Your pull was geared toward your character, so healers didn't pull wizard items, and vice a versa. No one saw your loot pull from the chest, and you didn't see theirs. There was no arguing, no need before greed crap, or anything like that.
You say a lot about what you don't want (solo content) but not what you do...
If the point isn't to "level up and collect gear", for example, what is the point?
WoW has two games: one is the leveling game which you can do solo but it takes awhile longer than in groups. Two is the gear collecting. For gear collecting you need (good) groups. Nothing that you got solo is going to qualify you for heroics or pvp... Just get past the first game, which is quick and easy by most standards here, and you're good to go.
In a Call of Duty MMO I'd do very well solo so I don't understand your analogy.
Your game just sounds unnecessarily limiting and would turn off a lot of players for no apparent reason.
A bit off topic but EQ2 had a bunch of loot whores. You'd run into the "need before greed" types. You're in a zone where all the good drops are for a particular class. And that class would whine NBG every time, even though other people in the group might be dead broke and could really use the item for some gold pieces.
I
LOL there were so many ways to make EASY money in EQ2 that if you "needed" an item over someone in the group who could use the item I'd kick your ass from t he group so fast you wouldn't even know what hit you and make sure everyone else I knew wouldn't group with you.
I am consistently sitting at 500 plat with nearly all my masters (missing 3), and i have never stolen from a group member who could use an item that dropped so i could sell it .... thats bullshit. and I am not a crafter either.
eq2 did think loot system just fine ... if someone was broke its because they were new to the game or didnt know WTF they were doing.
A bit off topic but EQ2 had a bunch of loot whores. You'd run into the "need before greed" types. You're in a zone where all the good drops are for a particular class. And that class would whine NBG every time, even though other people in the group might be dead broke and could really use the item for some gold pieces.
I
LOL there were so many ways to make EASY money in EQ2 that if you "needed" an item over someone in the group who could use the item I'd kick your ass from t he group so fast you wouldn't even know what hit you and make sure everyone else I knew wouldn't group with you.
I am consistently sitting at 500 plat with nearly all my masters (missing 3), and i have never stolen from a group member who could use an item that dropped so i could sell it .... thats bullshit. and I am not a crafter either.
eq2 did think loot system just fine ... if someone was broke its because they were new to the game or didnt know WTF they were doing.
If you have 500 plat, then how can you "need" an item? you can buy it.
Have you actually played Call of Duty online? You join a team and play against another team.
If you played Call of Duty solo, you'd just stand around staring at the terrain with nothing to do. Yes, you'd do great. You wouldn't kill anyone, no one would kil you.
You'd walk around. And then you could walk around some more. You could fire your gun, at a wall or something, and then you could reload it. Great fun.