I am sorry, but anyone who thinks that AI will be more unpredictable than human creativity has a low opionion, and I believe an inaccurate view, of the human mind. Even if they made the AI completely RANDOM as to how the mob reacts, which would be stupid, it would have to be random within a set of created responses that are programmed in. With a human behing, there is no limit except to the physical limitations of the character in the game, of what a person will do.
I have played many online games dating all the way back to the text based MUDs. And most of the time, every game I played that had PvP of SOME kind in it, I involved myself in it at least to some small degree. In some cases, such as DAoC, to an extensive degree. And the point about the specifically designed squads, that is true. Guilds that have a set template and allow for nothing else do limit the creativity. But, as the game evolves, those squads must evolve. And none of them were ever unstoppable. Every now and again, they go whiped. Their system worked usually, but it was not perfect. And sometimes, they even reveled in their defeat and gave credit to those who managed to foil them.
This is what makes PvP so exciting and a worthwhile addition to any MMORPG. Even if the emphasis remains on PvE. And sometimes you just dont feel like killing players, and that dragon over there looks to be an interesting challenge.
Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.
________________________________
Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.
Originally posted by Doomsayer I am sorry, but anyone who thinks that AI will be more unpredictable than human creativity has a low opionion, and I believe an inaccurate view, of the human mind. Even if they made the AI completely RANDOM as to how the mob reacts, which would be stupid, it would have to be random within a set of created responses that are programmed in. With a human behing, there is no limit except to the physical limitations of the character in the game, of what a person will do. I have played many online games dating all the way back to the text based MUDs. And most of the time, every game I played that had PvP of SOME kind in it, I involved myself in it at least to some small degree. In some cases, such as DAoC, to an extensive degree. And the point about the specifically designed squads, that is true. Guilds that have a set template and allow for nothing else do limit the creativity. But, as the game evolves, those squads must evolve. And none of them were ever unstoppable. Every now and again, they go whiped. Their system worked usually, but it was not perfect. And sometimes, they even reveled in their defeat and gave credit to those who managed to foil them. This is what makes PvP so exciting and a worthwhile addition to any MMORPG. Even if the emphasis remains on PvE. And sometimes you just dont feel like killing players, and that dragon over there looks to be an interesting challenge.
Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.
Excellent post, Doomsayer. It was a very big dissapointment for me, when I heard that EQ2 would not include any form of PvP at launch. I was so looking forward to this game and then, out of the blue, SOE slaps me in the face with no PvP. Having said this, I have to admit that I will most probably be joining the EQ2 community at launch, because old guild-mates and friends from my Everquest days will most definately be playing this game. However, playing PvE with friends does not nullify my obsessive need for PvP.
I am not what you would consider "a nice and friendly" player when it comes to MMORPGs. No, I'm not abusive in chat, I never bring insults to a personal level and I sometimes even help new players to get started. This being said, I freely admit to "ganking", "griefing" and harassing people of opposing factions and guilds in all ways possible within the PvP framework of a game. I don't attack players who are helpless against me or heavily wounded, unless requested by a friend to do so with a reason behind his or her wishes. In short, PvP is really what makes a MMORPG for me, tireless PvE grinding I can do in single-player games, not with the help of player controlled party members, I admit, but what is the difference really.
If I want to defeat AI controlled monsters in a group I can do this in Baldur's Gate, for example. Doing this, i will have full control of all party members and do things exactly the way I want. No more dying as the tank because the unattentive priest was taking a sip from his coffee mug when the monster we were fighting hit me with three consecutive critical blows. No more lootless three hour grinds because a party member was using a bot to grab all the items instantly as they dropped. No more perishing of the whole party because the puller of the group decided to go and stir up every monster in the dungeon, bring them to slay the party, and teleport back to town. A lot of these things are eliminated by playing with guild-mates and friends, but I'm sure all of us have had events like this happen at least once or twice.
Of course I will still be playing PvE and grouping, but the only thing that I find more endulging in grouping up and fighting AI controlled monsters in a MMO versus a single player game, is the fact that you can actually converse with your party members. Opinions differ, I know, but this is just my way of looking at it.
Yes, we all agree; Thoom is a moron. To even possibly think that an AI mob has more unpredictability than a human tells me he must be 7. Which in that case it would be harder to kill the AI mob than to kill Thoom in PVP. Anyways, I also was dissapointed when I heard there were to be no PVP at launch. The senario that comes to mind with no PVP:
A paladin strolling through the forest spots a Dark Necro lurking in the shadows. "HEY YOU!" he screams. The necro turns without alarm because he knows no one can hit him. "Let's group up and be butt buddies!" We can keep fighting these mobs over and over and when it gets boring we can do it some more! (they probably can't group up in EQ2 but what's the point of the storyline good vs evil when the two can't even interact. It would be like 2 seperate servers. A good and a bad. If a good goes into a bad city he gets teleported back.... Lame!
PVP on the other hand gives a break to the lvl grinding. It's obvious in EQ2, they developed 2 sides: good and evil. Oh how great the roleplaying would be! A paladin on guard spots a vast body of darkness closing in. As he strains his eyes he realizes in terror that 100+ enemies are upon them! (Pvp players of course) He sounds the alarm with all his might. "Our town is being raided!" he yells. A hundred of his guildmates and allies come in a heartbeat ready to fight for their cause. They cry, "For Qeynos!!!..." as they charge into battle.
Originally posted by Coldmeat 70 people arrive at the lair of the Dragon. Cleric buffs people, prepares CH macro Druid passes out his one buff that 3 people ask for, goes to the corner. Shaman passes out some buffs, fires up slow, prepares last will and testament 70 people move to attack the Dragon Main tank attacks Dragon 5 Cleric's star CH chain 1 Druid tabs out, and reads MMORPG.com 1 Shaman tries casting slow on the Dragon, after the 5th resist, gets aggro and dies 62 other people stand there looking stupid for the next 3 minutes After 3 minutes, 62 people attack the Dragon, tank loses aggro 5 Enchanters die in the next 38 seconds Paladin, and Shadowknight get aggro lock on the Dragon. Main Tank sits down and starts reading Tolstoy One hour, 37 minutes, and 14 seconds later the Dragon is dead Upon inspection, The group finds a No Drop Ranger Breastplate that no one wants, Some random gems, a quest drop which is immediately ninjalooted, and 46 silver pieces. Certainly sounds heroic to me, where do I sign up?
LOL, you forgot the four rogues who have been on auto-follow for three hours because it is taking so long to get set up and are in the living room watching Survivor.
Unless AI in mmorpgs somehow have become sentient then of course they are predictable. LOL, they are programmed. The only randomness is perhaps in the numerical likelihood that they will use whatever special attack/AE they have rather than their base attack in that particular combat round. If you have ever played a cleric in a decent raiding guild you have a section in your guild's forum with CHeal chain information labeling every major raid mob from Terris Thule to Mithaniel Marr with the exact optimal timing for the Complete Heal chain from 6 seconds to 1 second.
After the first encounter you know, "we need magic and fire resist for this, range on the AE is blah blahand we are inside so casters and rangers set up here behind this wall and pop out to nuke Trueshot. Paladins group with enchanters to mez the first wave, kill all adds first only the warriors stay on SuperFreak until wave is dead then all back on SuperFreak. At 30 percent he will mass debuff so we need MGB Virtue (mass group buff) and Haste. Shaman chain disease cure on MT. MT order is .... "
Unpredictable? LOL. Some idiot 50 mage attacking your group of four and accidentally falling to his death off the bridge while trying to get in cast range... now that is unpredictable.
For those not familiar with SOE, of course they know that many want PVP. It isn't in EQ2 for ONE reason and one reason only. It is hard enough to keep classes balanced for PVE (and they have struggled mightily with that). When you have to class balance for PVE AND PVP, fohgetaboutit. Look at WoW and all the changes -
Priests gimped from any crowd control and charm to being only healers -------> because it made them too powerful in PVP,
Warriors nerfed on Charge ------------> Fine for PVE but it was making them overpowered in PVP,
Mages pyro damage nerfed ----------------> Perfect for the high health of PVE mobs but enabled them to "one-shot" players in PVP,
etc etc
One thing about SOE is that they have been through all this before. I will bet their devs and team sit in a room at lunch and read the vitriolistic animosity on the WoW boards (all the "Paladins need love!" and "Priests Suck Now!" and "NO reason to play a rogue" threads) and they are laughing...HARD and pointing...
SUCKAHS!
The plan? probably let the game be out and fairly balanced for six months and then add a couple PVP servers. Then, when the bitchings start about balance pertaining to PVP they can say..."Listen the game was fine and nobody complained before, you PVPers are just trying to make trouble, if you don;t like it go back to the PVE servers" and guess what? Us PVPers will STFU and still pvp, we will just ALL be assassins
Imagine if everyone in the world just could get along. Imagine a ORPG that everyone could enjoy. Now wake the Beep up.
There's no PvP in EQ2 yet. Will it kill the game? Time will tell. One thing is for sure that if SOE sees that the reason for it's crushing defeat is lack of PvP, they probably will put it in.
As for everyone that won't play this game because of it, enjoy what ever it is you play, for the rest of you cya in the dungeons. Muhhahahahahaaa
P4-3.0HT 800Mhz, RAID0 120's, 1Gb Dual 400Mhz,Toshiba 8X DVD+-,ASUS P4P800 DLX, ATI 9800PRO, 500watt PS. Made by Me in Victoria,BC. Canada
Comments
I am sorry, but anyone who thinks that AI will be more unpredictable than human creativity has a low opionion, and I believe an inaccurate view, of the human mind. Even if they made the AI completely RANDOM as to how the mob reacts, which would be stupid, it would have to be random within a set of created responses that are programmed in. With a human behing, there is no limit except to the physical limitations of the character in the game, of what a person will do.
I have played many online games dating all the way back to the text based MUDs. And most of the time, every game I played that had PvP of SOME kind in it, I involved myself in it at least to some small degree. In some cases, such as DAoC, to an extensive degree. And the point about the specifically designed squads, that is true. Guilds that have a set template and allow for nothing else do limit the creativity. But, as the game evolves, those squads must evolve. And none of them were ever unstoppable. Every now and again, they go whiped. Their system worked usually, but it was not perfect. And sometimes, they even reveled in their defeat and gave credit to those who managed to foil them.
This is what makes PvP so exciting and a worthwhile addition to any MMORPG. Even if the emphasis remains on PvE. And sometimes you just dont feel like killing players, and that dragon over there looks to be an interesting challenge.
Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.
________________________________
Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.
Excellent post, Doomsayer. It was a very big dissapointment for me, when I heard that EQ2 would not include any form of PvP at launch. I was so looking forward to this game and then, out of the blue, SOE slaps me in the face with no PvP. Having said this, I have to admit that I will most probably be joining the EQ2 community at launch, because old guild-mates and friends from my Everquest days will most definately be playing this game. However, playing PvE with friends does not nullify my obsessive need for PvP.
I am not what you would consider "a nice and friendly" player when it comes to MMORPGs. No, I'm not abusive in chat, I never bring insults to a personal level and I sometimes even help new players to get started. This being said, I freely admit to "ganking", "griefing" and harassing people of opposing factions and guilds in all ways possible within the PvP framework of a game. I don't attack players who are helpless against me or heavily wounded, unless requested by a friend to do so with a reason behind his or her wishes. In short, PvP is really what makes a MMORPG for me, tireless PvE grinding I can do in single-player games, not with the help of player controlled party members, I admit, but what is the difference really.
If I want to defeat AI controlled monsters in a group I can do this in Baldur's Gate, for example. Doing this, i will have full control of all party members and do things exactly the way I want. No more dying as the tank because the unattentive priest was taking a sip from his coffee mug when the monster we were fighting hit me with three consecutive critical blows. No more lootless three hour grinds because a party member was using a bot to grab all the items instantly as they dropped. No more perishing of the whole party because the puller of the group decided to go and stir up every monster in the dungeon, bring them to slay the party, and teleport back to town. A lot of these things are eliminated by playing with guild-mates and friends, but I'm sure all of us have had events like this happen at least once or twice.
Of course I will still be playing PvE and grouping, but the only thing that I find more endulging in grouping up and fighting AI controlled monsters in a MMO versus a single player game, is the fact that you can actually converse with your party members. Opinions differ, I know, but this is just my way of looking at it.
Yes, we all agree; Thoom is a moron. To even possibly think that an AI mob has more unpredictability than a human tells me he must be 7. Which in that case it would be harder to kill the AI mob than to kill Thoom in PVP. Anyways, I also was dissapointed when I heard there were to be no PVP at launch. The senario that comes to mind with no PVP:
A paladin strolling through the forest spots a Dark Necro lurking in the shadows. "HEY YOU!" he screams. The necro turns without alarm because he knows no one can hit him. "Let's group up and be butt buddies!" We can keep fighting these mobs over and over and when it gets boring we can do it some more! (they probably can't group up in EQ2 but what's the point of the storyline good vs evil when the two can't even interact. It would be like 2 seperate servers. A good and a bad. If a good goes into a bad city he gets teleported back.... Lame!
PVP on the other hand gives a break to the lvl grinding. It's obvious in EQ2, they developed 2 sides: good and evil. Oh how great the roleplaying would be! A paladin on guard spots a vast body of darkness closing in. As he strains his eyes he realizes in terror that 100+ enemies are upon them! (Pvp players of course) He sounds the alarm with all his might. "Our town is being raided!" he yells. A hundred of his guildmates and allies come in a heartbeat ready to fight for their cause. They cry, "For Qeynos!!!..." as they charge into battle.
LOL, you forgot the four rogues who have been on auto-follow for three hours because it is taking so long to get set up and are in the living room watching Survivor.
Unless AI in mmorpgs somehow have become sentient then of course they are predictable. LOL, they are programmed. The only randomness is perhaps in the numerical likelihood that they will use whatever special attack/AE they have rather than their base attack in that particular combat round. If you have ever played a cleric in a decent raiding guild you have a section in your guild's forum with CHeal chain information labeling every major raid mob from Terris Thule to Mithaniel Marr with the exact optimal timing for the Complete Heal chain from 6 seconds to 1 second.
After the first encounter you know, "we need magic and fire resist for this, range on the AE is blah blahand we are inside so casters and rangers set up here behind this wall and pop out to nuke Trueshot. Paladins group with enchanters to mez the first wave, kill all adds first only the warriors stay on SuperFreak until wave is dead then all back on SuperFreak. At 30 percent he will mass debuff so we need MGB Virtue (mass group buff) and Haste. Shaman chain disease cure on MT. MT order is .... "
Unpredictable? LOL. Some idiot 50 mage attacking your group of four and accidentally falling to his death off the bridge while trying to get in cast range... now that is unpredictable.
For those not familiar with SOE, of course they know that many want PVP. It isn't in EQ2 for ONE reason and one reason only. It is hard enough to keep classes balanced for PVE (and they have struggled mightily with that). When you have to class balance for PVE AND PVP, fohgetaboutit. Look at WoW and all the changes -
Priests gimped from any crowd control and charm to being only healers -------> because it made them too powerful in PVP,
Warriors nerfed on Charge ------------> Fine for PVE but it was making them overpowered in PVP,
Mages pyro damage nerfed ----------------> Perfect for the high health of PVE mobs but enabled them to "one-shot" players in PVP,
etc etc
One thing about SOE is that they have been through all this before. I will bet their devs and team sit in a room at lunch and read the vitriolistic animosity on the WoW boards (all the "Paladins need love!" and "Priests Suck Now!" and "NO reason to play a rogue" threads) and they are laughing...HARD and pointing...
SUCKAHS!
The plan? probably let the game be out and fairly balanced for six months and then add a couple PVP servers. Then, when the bitchings start about balance pertaining to PVP they can say..."Listen the game was fine and nobody complained before, you PVPers are just trying to make trouble, if you don;t like it go back to the PVE servers" and guess what? Us PVPers will STFU and still pvp, we will just ALL be assassins
Imagine if everyone in the world just could get along. Imagine a ORPG that everyone could enjoy. Now wake the Beep up.
There's no PvP in EQ2 yet. Will it kill the game? Time will tell. One thing is for sure that if SOE sees that the reason for it's crushing defeat is lack of PvP, they probably will put it in.
As for everyone that won't play this game because of it, enjoy what ever it is you play, for the rest of you cya in the dungeons. Muhhahahahahaaa
P4-3.0HT 800Mhz, RAID0 120's, 1Gb Dual 400Mhz,Toshiba 8X DVD+-,ASUS P4P800 DLX, ATI 9800PRO, 500watt PS.
Made by Me in Victoria,BC. Canada
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Darkage of Camelot | Since Day 1 |
Seabasz 50 Hero | Lancelot / Hib
Seabas 50 Enchanter | Lancelot / Hib
Vlyden 50 Bezerker | Guinevere / Mid
Vlyden 50 Armsman | Bors / Alb
Hellzpyro 40 Wizard | Merlin / Alb
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Darkage of Camelot
Seabasz 50 Hero | Lancelot / Hib
Seabas 50 Enchanter | Lancelot / Hib
Vlyden 50 Bezerker | Guinevere / Mid
Vydien 50 Armsman | Bors / Alb
Hellzpyro 50 Wizard | Merlin / Alb
Oceany 45 BM | Mordred / Mid
Seabasy 48 Bard | Mordred / Hib