PvP has only had a negative effect on MMO's. Let's hope Darkfall succeeds at being the ass-magnet game it wants to be. littlemonkey
Yes because gathering gear and having nothing to do with it other then to show it off and down the same bosses all the time is what its all about. Explain the negative effects, other then somebody destroying you ingame.
Fizzcrank and Mug'thol here. I have family that plays PvE so im forced to be on Fizzcrank. And friends on Mug'Thol where I enjoy most of my stay in WoW. I play both factions.
A PvP game needs PvE in it to survive, unless it's crafted EXTREMELY well (like EvE), which is a rarity. A PvE game does not need Pvp in it at all to survive, and can do quite well on its own for many years.
Because of this, when they mix the two, its USUALLY the PvE part that suffers badly because it had everything to lose, and usually cost a reduction in content due to splitting up personnel teams to work on both sides.
Mixing the two is really only a good idea for the Pvp side, as it can only gain from the extra people who will stay if the PvE is good. But if a PvE games pvp is bad, the few that joined because of that won't make a dent. This is why Warhammer had 500k people leave.. not because the PvP was bad, but because most people could'nt take the boring and bland PvE questing and buggy dungeons for longer than a month.
www.warcraftmovies.com now that we have established that WoWs subs would be far less then they are now without PvP whats next? I get the feeling that half of you PvP haters was killed questing and had pixelated nutts dragged down your faces.
Sorry but what you say is illogical, and seems completely based on your personal perception, not on actual reality. Lets look at the main function of an RPG. Character progression! This is accomplished through stats and numbers + items/objects, that give stats and numbers. Both of these can be obtained from pvp and pve. Fighting mobs and getting numbers to change your characters number (stats) is just a tool for character progression. PvP can do the exact same, since the only difference is in the object's (npc or player) input. In essence, people for the most part like a reason to pvp, they use the back story to explain the reasoning behind it. The backstory does not have to be fleshed out with PvE, but its certainly easier that way. PvE as a tool executes simple loops in which players see the predictable computer's reaction toward agro. With player input on the subject of attack, it becomes user generated content, unpredictable. In this day and age this is needed. Can you name a current pve only game thats doing well? Fact is, titles with organized pvp rulesets in a world that uses pve as a tool for alternate character progression, seem to be the most accepted formula. WoW, Lineage 2...ect Games like Vanguard that have some of the best pve out there but lack pvp, seem to be doing the worst. The evidence is that for a mmorpg to be successful it needs the user generated content and dynamic gameplay player input provides in regards to playing against another player, aka pvp.
Vanguard did bad because it was buggy. You really should have experienced it and you would know what I mean. It wasn't because of missing PvP. It was buggy as hell and unplayable due to bad coding. That's it and that's the ONLY reason it failed.. not because of the premise. Ask around.. many will flat out tell you if Vanguard was not buggy, they'd be playing that instead of WoW right now.
A pvp game without any story is.. nothing. Name one. You can't because they have never existed. All pvp games, even consoles, have some type of PvE element in it. But again, you can PvE games without any or good pvp that made all their money back, and are still being played today.
But you asked for a PvE games doing well. Well, the reality is.. the good ones are all dated now, but still being played. FFXI is an old model. EQ2 is old. If you name any of the heavy PvE games out, they are all pretty much dated. LOTRO is the only one that comes to mind, but that game was always lacking excitement. They did VERY well when they first out, but people eventually got tired of them and tried other games. I played FFXI for almost 4 years, but wanted to try newer games and see how they were coming along. They are worse.
And btw: Wow is a PvE game and its doing extremely well. If all the people in Wow that pvp'ed left it tomorrow, the game would still be number one, so I think you point is lacking there. WoW as a pure PvE game still beats anything that is a hybrid out now, or any PvP game like DAOC or EVE combined. And WoW isn't even the best PvE game imo.
So no, a PURE PvE game does not need a PvP element in it to survive. But if you try to go the other way, you will fail. I don't know how you don't see that and say its "illogical". Maybe its illogical on paper, but in practice... that's reality.
If you like pvp it will most likely work, if you don't it most likely doesn't.......Some games work pvp better than others.
Some games work pve better than others.
You wanting someone to argue with you ok, but it's just a matter of taste not a cut and dry fact.
I liked EQ pve .....it was fun it was challenging......I didn't care for vanguard pve, found it too easy....but It's an opinion, does not mean that all pve is good or bad.
I can do the same for pvp games, but I'm sure you got the idea .
now that we have established that WoWs subs would be far less then they are now without PvP whats next?
Whatcu talkin bout, Willis?
Who established that.. and with what proof? You really aren't that delusional to think if all the people playing Wow's pvp left tonight, the game would lose 6 or 7 million subs?
Because they have 12 million now, so you're implying they'd lose "far less then they are now"?
A PvP game needs PvE in it to survive, unless it's crafted EXTREMELY well (like EvE), which is a rarity. A PvE game does not need Pvp in it at all to survive, and can do quite well on its own for many years.
Because of this, when they mix the two, its USUALLY the PvE part that suffers badly because it had everything to lose, and usually cost a reduction in content due to splitting up personnel teams to work on both sides.
Mixing the two is really only a good idea for the Pvp side, as it can only gain from the extra people who will stay if the PvE is good. But if a PvE games pvp is bad, the few that joined because of that won't make a dent. This is why Warhammer had 500k people leave.. not because the PvP was bad, but because most people could'nt take the boring and bland PvE questing and buggy dungeons for longer than a month.
Ahh I see you're bringing your anti PvP crusade to other threads as well. You may as well face it......people want to have the choice to play games with AND against each other. Games developers know this and they also know that people are becoming really bored with logging online simply to play a single player game in multiplayer co-op mode. The internet is totally capable of providing a lot more than this to people and games are going to include PvP in their game design (unlike what we have been seeing so far) whether you like it or not.......and actually once you get a taste of a GOOD mmo you will probably find that you actually like it and will then look back at all the drab pure PvE games of the past with a "WTF?!!!" attitude.
Besides all of your thoughts seem to be based on the failed mmos we have been seeing so far. Stop being so pessimistic and try looking to the future and see how good games could actually be.
Sorry but what you say is illogical, and seems completely based on your personal perception, not on actual reality.
Lets look at the main function of an RPG. Character progression! This is accomplished through stats and numbers + items/objects, that give stats and numbers.
Both of these can be obtained from pvp and pve. Fighting mobs and getting numbers to change your characters number (stats) is just a tool for character progression. PvP can do the exact same, since the only difference is in the object's (npc or player) input.
In essence, people for the most part like a reason to pvp, they use the back story to explain the reasoning behind it. The backstory does not have to be fleshed out with PvE, but its certainly easier that way. PvE as a tool executes simple loops in which players see the predictable computer's reaction toward agro. With player input on the subject of attack, it becomes user generated content, unpredictable.
In this day and age this is needed. Can you name a current pve only game thats doing well? Fact is, titles with organized pvp rulesets in a world that uses pve as a tool for alternate character progression, seem to be the most accepted formula. WoW, Lineage 2...ect
Games like Vanguard that have some of the best pve out there but lack pvp, seem to be doing the worst. The evidence is that for a mmorpg to be successful it needs the user generated content and dynamic gameplay player input provides in regards to playing against another player, aka pvp.
Vanguard did bad because it was buggy. You really should have experienced it and you would know what I mean. It wasn't because of missing PvP. It was buggy as hell and unplayable due to bad coding. That's it and that's the ONLY reason it failed.. not because of the premise. Ask around.. many will flat out tell you if Vanguard was not buggy, they'd be playing that instead of WoW right now.
A pvp game without any story is.. nothing. Name one. You can't because they have never existed. All pvp games, even consoles, have some type of PvE element in it. But again, you can PvE games without any or good pvp that made all their money back, and are still being played today.
But you asked for a PvE games doing well. Well, the reality is.. the good ones are all dated now, but still being played. FFXI is an old model. EQ2 is old. If you name any of the heavy PvE games out, they are all pretty much dated. LOTRO is the only one that comes to mind, but that game was always lacking excitement. They did VERY well when they first out, but people eventually got tired of them and tried other games. I played FFXI for almost 4 years, but wanted to try newer games and see how they were coming along. They are worse.
And btw: Wow is a PvE game and its doing extremely well. If all the people in Wow that pvp'ed left it tomorrow, the game would still be number one, so I think you point is lacking there. WoW as a pure PvE game still beats anything that is a hybrid out now, or any PvP game like DAOC or EVE combined. And WoW isn't even the best PvE game imo.
So no, a PURE PvE game does not need a PvP element in it to survive. But if you try to go the other way, you will fail. I don't know how you don't see that and say its "illogical". Maybe its illogical on paper, but in practice... that's reality.
I agree with you on PvP needing PvE to survive. Look at Fury (lol). But without PvP a PvE game gets very boring and repetative. When you are done with end game waiting for the next patch to add more content what else is there to do, PvP maybe? PvP was not intended to be the primary goal, at first. But a lot of people are stepping forward wanting in on more competitive game play.
now that we have established that WoWs subs would be far less then they are now without PvP whats next?
Whatcu talkin bout, Willis?
Who established that.. and with what proof? You really aren't that delusional to think if all the people playing Wow's pvp left tonight, the game would lose 6 or 7 million subs?
Because they have 12 million now, so you're implying they'd lose "far less then they are now"?
Damnit Garry Coleman, when you read about people leaving WoW. Most of what you see is "arena raped my sister" or what ever. Where are you getting 6 or 7 million players leaving? Did i ever mention numbers, nope. Two million out of 12 million is far less in there eyes believe me. Now im using this as a example im in no way saying millions would leave. But I am saying that PvP plays a huge roll in WoW. Its Core is PvE but the Shell is PvP. On that site you can see that PvP is seen as a art form. Otherwise people would not record videos of themselves showing what skill they have. Thats what im talking about, garry.
This discussion is a moot point. PvP in MMOs is here to stay and will not be going anywhere. I think the solution to this problem has already been in place for years, both PVE servers and PVP servers.
The type of people that pvp games attract just happen to be the same type of people that have no qualms about destroying a community for their personal gain. Games with a self destructive community seldom last long or do well. There are, however, a few exceptions.
The first sentence speaks volumes about pvp mentality and why pvp communities have a well deserved bad rep.
The problem is not fully the pvp community. I remember playing games like MOHAA and Quake3 and the end result of a lose was "good game, I really enjoyed that". Now its "YOU GOT OWNED BITCH". But not every PvPer follows this. I love pvp, with every win or lose I end it with good game. The problem is not the community alone, but the moderators who let it go this far. In WoW you can destroy somebody and turn around and completly taunt them about there lose, the most that will be done is a slap on the wrist warning (if that) and they will be right back to offend another. And you can devote a small % of the problem to punk kids whose parents didnt see rated T for teen for there 11 year old kid.
You can't communicate with the opposite faction in WoW. You can do a few emotes but most of them will come out as "heartless did a strange gesture" to the other player. The worst you can do is /spit.
From my experience, personal insults get punished fairly quickly in WoW. People get suspended or banned. Stop blaming everything on WoW. What's next, you're going to blame WoW for global warming?
Douche bags have been around the internet long before WoW. I remember dealing with "lol pwnt" and "ez noob" in UO. As more and more people gain access to the internet, you see more of these types of gamers. The problem is that the PvP community as a whole attracts the angsty teen who needs to take his frustrations, caused by low self-esteem, on other people. With computers becoming a household appliance, more and more people can take out their anger on others without fear or reprisal.
Lol, you really took this to heart. Did you know on a pve server you can have both alliance and horde on the same server? So you could easily create a alt just to let the enemy know how much you hate them. Anyways I was refering to duels. I play WoW im blaming nothing on it. Im just using it as a refrence considering I play it. I could say it was in SWG but I dont play that anymore. Nice way to jump to conclusions. Really I would rather be refered to as a angsty teen if thats what It takes to enjoy PvP. PvP proves a lot then bot healing the main tank or using the same 4 skills in a row to keep up with rotation. So if im a Angsty teen, then what are you a mindless drone? Oh and "from my experience" what I said before still applys. I'll take my low self-esteem self back to battlegrounds, when you work up the courage to step your foot inside a pvp zone, let me know. You might enjoy it if you relax.
Edit: I just looked under you picture and see the words "pwnt" are you one of the douche bags thats been around the internet?
Just find it funny how every fault of this genre somehow gets attributed to WoW.
When I played WoW it was exclusively on a PvP server and I only raided a few times in MC and BWL before BC. Since I don't play WoW anymore, I don't think I'll be able to work my courage up to step inside a PvP zone, so, regretfully, I will not be letting you know.
My douche bag comment must've struck a nerve. I appologize, I didn't mean that you were a douche bag or an angsty teen, I meant that those are the types of people this play style tends to attract. If you don't consider yourself one of them, why get some defensive? People are so strange sometimes.
Sorry. Won't respond to you, lest you get abusive again.
Please argue with someone else this time around. I did not make this thread.
You're over reacting and being a drama queen. What I said before in the other thread wasnt that bad and I apologised for it too. You can pretend that you were emotionally scarred by it if you like but thats up to you. Either way the thoughts will continue to flow and the fingers will continue to type.
I agree with you on PvP needing PvE to survive. Look at Fury (lol). But without PvP a PvE game gets very boring and repetative. When you are done with end game waiting for the next patch to add more content what else is there to do, PvP maybe? PvP was not intended to be the primary goal, at first. But a lot of people are stepping forward wanting in on more competitive game play.
Really, its only on "egghead" forums like these, where all us nerds opine about we want more PvP. The average MMO gamer doesn't read these rags, they just look up a game in trade mags or word of mouth. Most of them prefer the style of grouping, because its cooperative and I believe that deep down, people really want to work together to defeat "monster" type mobs, not other people. They certainly don't want all the bragging and /emote fart /emote moon /emote spit that comes with PvP. If you talk to people who play WoW, this is what they prefer.
There IS a natural progression for some who played consoles and other Pvp games that moved into MMOs and don't like the time it takes to level characters up. In a typical pvp non-MMO, your character is maxed extremely fast, if there's any leveling to do at all. So they don't care about story or journey. I know plenty of people who I was talking to while playing CTD4, and they said they really didn't pay attention to missions in the single player side. They just wanted to come to the open killing and get busy. When these people come to MMOs, they want their MMOs the same way... hit max first month OR no leveling at all. They hate the progression and anything that makes them go through it.
So now, companies are starting to see some of that mentality spread, and are shortcutting with the PvE side.. Warhammer is a great example of poor writing, poor design and poor PvE implementation. I assumed they focused all on the PvP side, but reading the VN boards and other places talking about sub numbers, I guess you can't say that either.
Do I believe there is room for PvE only, PvP only and Hybrids? Yes. But looking at the current year (2009) its all going to be hybrids. And I got a feeling they will all pick up where Warhammer and AoC left off... incomplete and leaving people lacking, trying to serve two masters.
Sorry but what you say is illogical, and seems completely based on your personal perception, not on actual reality.
Lets look at the main function of an RPG. Character progression! This is accomplished through stats and numbers + items/objects, that give stats and numbers.
Both of these can be obtained from pvp and pve. Fighting mobs and getting numbers to change your characters number (stats) is just a tool for character progression. PvP can do the exact same, since the only difference is in the object's (npc or player) input.
In essence, people for the most part like a reason to pvp, they use the back story to explain the reasoning behind it. The backstory does not have to be fleshed out with PvE, but its certainly easier that way. PvE as a tool executes simple loops in which players see the predictable computer's reaction toward agro. With player input on the subject of attack, it becomes user generated content, unpredictable.
In this day and age this is needed. Can you name a current pve only game thats doing well? Fact is, titles with organized pvp rulesets in a world that uses pve as a tool for alternate character progression, seem to be the most accepted formula. WoW, Lineage 2...ect
Games like Vanguard that have some of the best pve out there but lack pvp, seem to be doing the worst. The evidence is that for a mmorpg to be successful it needs the user generated content and dynamic gameplay player input provides in regards to playing against another player, aka pvp.
Vanguard did bad because it was buggy. You really should have experienced it and you would know what I mean. It wasn't because of missing PvP. It was buggy as hell and unplayable due to bad coding. That's it and that's the ONLY reason it failed.. not because of the premise. Ask around.. many will flat out tell you if Vanguard was not buggy, they'd be playing that instead of WoW right now.
A pvp game without any story is.. nothing. Name one. You can't because they have never existed. All pvp games, even consoles, have some type of PvE element in it. But again, you can PvE games without any or good pvp that made all their money back, and are still being played today.
But you asked for a PvE games doing well. Well, the reality is.. the good ones are all dated now, but still being played. FFXI is an old model. EQ2 is old. If you name any of the heavy PvE games out, they are all pretty much dated. LOTRO is the only one that comes to mind, but that game was always lacking excitement. They did VERY well when they first out, but people eventually got tired of them and tried other games. I played FFXI for almost 4 years, but wanted to try newer games and see how they were coming along. They are worse.
And btw: Wow is a PvE game and its doing extremely well. If all the people in Wow that pvp'ed left it tomorrow, the game would still be number one, so I think you point is lacking there. WoW as a pure PvE game still beats anything that is a hybrid out now, or any PvP game like DAOC or EVE combined. And WoW isn't even the best PvE game imo.
So no, a PURE PvE game does not need a PvP element in it to survive. But if you try to go the other way, you will fail. I don't know how you don't see that and say its "illogical". Maybe its illogical on paper, but in practice... that's reality.
Ok you make a couple of mistakes right off the bat. First you assume I wasnt around when Vanguard launched. In fact, i was in beta and played after release. I know very well about the bugs that were part of vanguard, but fact is, every game has bugs. If pve was the mainfocus of a successful mmorpg, you would see Vanguard becoming popular and successful. Fact is, its not.
Second mistake you made was saying "many will flat out tell you if Vanguard was not buggy, they'd be playing that instead of WoW right now." Thats just laugh out loud stupid, as is self explanitory.
The third mistake you make is assuming story == pve content. Story and lore do not need player vs monsters and npcs to exist. Again you seem to forget that PvE is a tool for character progression.
If put a beach ball in front of you and said "kick it"... you could either do it because you are bored, or you could ask "why?". If i said "that beach ball will take over the world and kill your family", then you would have a reason to kick it. But you see, the situation hasnt really changed. You are given two brainless options, kick the ball, or dont kick the ball. You dont need a reason for both pvp and pve, but it helps even though its still the same stupid thing. Objects in games are just that, objects with basic behavioral patterns. Its up to the developer to try to convince you to interact with the object, even if the object is a beach ball just sitting on the floor. PvP and PvE can be given reasons to do them, but those reasons as well as story does not rely on pvp or pve at all.
I really dont know where you are pulling this story == pve assumption from.
The fourth mistake you make is by assuming WoW is just a PvE game.The basis of WoW's success come from RvR pvp settings, both PvE servers and PvP servers have PvP. One allows world pvp the other is based on arena's and battle grounds.
WoW has been from its conception a pvp game while using both pvp and pve to show off the lore and include time sinks. Warcraft has always been about competition, playing against another side and nothing has changed.
Your final mistake is this "So no, a PURE PvE game does not need a PvP element in it to survive.". The key word in this quote of yours is "survive". I dont know if anyone has told you but the goal of a mmorpg investment is not to "survive" but to be successful. Barely surviving (just making enough subscription money to keep it going) is not a success. A successful mmorpg includes both the pvp and pve spheres, needs them in this day and age. It his how mmorpgs have become perfected.
An analogy, a minority might only want fish on their plate, and a small minority might only want chips on their plate, but a successful business knows that the masses are really interested in Fish & Chips together and will deliver such.
The type of people that pvp games attract just happen to be the same type of people that have no qualms about destroying a community for their personal gain. Games with a self destructive community seldom last long or do well. There are, however, a few exceptions.
There's certainly a portion of the community made up of the people you describe; those who use the openness and freedom of a FFA PvP MMO as open-season to harass as many other players as they can.
To be sure, they are not attracted to the game for its promise of unfettered PvP. They are attracted to it for its promise of doing nothing to stop them from behaving like assholes.
I would say the majority *are* looking for a open and more harsh PvP experience in the spirit of fierce competition.They understand the difference between competitive PvP and griefing/ganking easy targets purely for their own cheap thrills.
I think the trouble players are a minority... Unfortunately, they're a very active and very disruptive minority whom, if not reigned in, can and will drive many players from the game. Contrary to common misconception, it's not because their victims are "WoW carebears" (especially since this type of stuff happened long before WoW). Rather, it's because people who may well enjoy PvP do not enjoy being the easy kill for someone else to stroke their epeen.
Unfortunately, it seems that many more in the PvP community, instead of taking a step back and seeing the situation for what it is and understanding the differences, immediately regard any complaint of ganking or greifing as "another whiney carebear who can't handle real PvP". So... while they're not actively causing the problem, they're not exactly helping it either.
In my experience and in my opinion, the reason no anytime/anywhere wide-open FFA PvP MMO will ever rise to being anything more than a small niche game is two-fold:
1. That kind of gameplay appeals to a smaller audience
2. A portion of that audience login only to harass and annoy other players
3. Not all of the people in #1 are willing to pay a subscription to a game where their time is spent being harassed by the people in #2, and will leave for a different game.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The type of people that pvp games attract just happen to be the same type of people that have no qualms about destroying a community for their personal gain. Games with a self destructive community seldom last long or do well. There are, however, a few exceptions.
The first sentence speaks volumes about pvp mentality and why pvp communities have a well deserved bad rep.
The problem is not fully the pvp community. I remember playing games like MOHAA and Quake3 and the end result of a lose was "good game, I really enjoyed that". Now its "YOU GOT OWNED BITCH". But not every PvPer follows this. I love pvp, with every win or lose I end it with good game. The problem is not the community alone, but the moderators who let it go this far. In WoW you can destroy somebody and turn around and completly taunt them about there lose, the most that will be done is a slap on the wrist warning (if that) and they will be right back to offend another. And you can devote a small % of the problem to punk kids whose parents didnt see rated T for teen for there 11 year old kid.
You can't communicate with the opposite faction in WoW. You can do a few emotes but most of them will come out as "heartless did a strange gesture" to the other player. The worst you can do is /spit.
From my experience, personal insults get punished fairly quickly in WoW. People get suspended or banned. Stop blaming everything on WoW. What's next, you're going to blame WoW for global warming?
Douche bags have been around the internet long before WoW. I remember dealing with "lol pwnt" and "ez noob" in UO. As more and more people gain access to the internet, you see more of these types of gamers. The problem is that the PvP community as a whole attracts the angsty teen who needs to take his frustrations, caused by low self-esteem, on other people. With computers becoming a household appliance, more and more people can take out their anger on others without fear or reprisal.
Lol, you really took this to heart. Did you know on a pve server you can have both alliance and horde on the same server? So you could easily create a alt just to let the enemy know how much you hate them. Anyways I was refering to duels. I play WoW im blaming nothing on it. Im just using it as a refrence considering I play it. I could say it was in SWG but I dont play that anymore. Nice way to jump to conclusions. Really I would rather be refered to as a angsty teen if thats what It takes to enjoy PvP. PvP proves a lot then bot healing the main tank or using the same 4 skills in a row to keep up with rotation. So if im a Angsty teen, then what are you a mindless drone? Oh and "from my experience" what I said before still applys. I'll take my low self-esteem self back to battlegrounds, when you work up the courage to step your foot inside a pvp zone, let me know. You might enjoy it if you relax.
Edit: I just looked under you picture and see the words "pwnt" are you one of the douche bags thats been around the internet?
Just find it funny how every fault of this genre somehow gets attributed to WoW.
When I played WoW it was exclusively on a PvP server and I only raided a few times in MC and BWL before BC. Since I don't play WoW anymore, I don't think I'll be able to work my courage up to step inside a PvP zone, so, regretfully, I will not be letting you know.
My douche bag comment must've struck a nerve. I appologize, I didn't mean that you were a douche bag or an angsty teen, I meant that those are the types of people this play style tends to attract. If you don't consider yourself one of them, why get some defensive? People are so strange sometimes.
Anyway, have fun on your PvE server.
lol I will do my best to have fun on my PvE server. I have more fun on my PvP as I said in a earlier post. Did you even read your own post? According to anybody that does PvP is a angst teen. I said "I love pvp" so your insisting im a angst teen, do I need to go any futher? I never said you called me a douche, not once. I just found it funny how your icon signature says "pwnt" and you insult those who say it. Yes you are right, people are so strange sometimes.
PvP has only had a negative effect on MMO's. Let's hope Darkfall succeeds at being the ass-magnet game it wants to be. littlemonkey
If you feed people mouldy apples and yet never show them what a good apple tastes like then they will naturally learn to dislike apples. Obviously this doesnt mean that apples are bad. You just need to try some good ones. Unfortunately people havent been growing many decent apples for a long time so they are in short supply. I think the future holds many nice tasty apples because nice tasty apples are what the internet is all about. If I'm going to play games on the internet with people then I want to share nice tasty apples with them.
Very good analogy
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I agree with you on PvP needing PvE to survive. Look at Fury (lol). But without PvP a PvE game gets very boring and repetative. When you are done with end game waiting for the next patch to add more content what else is there to do, PvP maybe? PvP was not intended to be the primary goal, at first. But a lot of people are stepping forward wanting in on more competitive game play.
Really, its only on "egghead" forums like these, where all us nerds opine about we want more PvP. The average MMO gamer doesn't read these rags, they just look up a game in trade mags or word of mouth. Most of them prefer the style of grouping, because its cooperative and I believe that deep down, people really want to work together to defeat "monster" type mobs, not other people. They certainly don't want all the bragging and /emote fart /emote moon /emote spit that comes with PvP. If you talk to people who play WoW, this is what they prefer.
There IS a natural progression for some who played consoles and other Pvp games that moved into MMOs and don't like the time it takes to level characters up. In a typical pvp non-MMO, your character is maxed extremely fast, if there's any leveling to do at all. So they don't care about story or journey. I know plenty of people who I was talking to while playing CTD4, and they said they really didn't pay attention to missions in the single player side. They just wanted to come to the open killing and get busy. When these people come to MMOs, they want their MMOs the same way... hit max first month OR no leveling at all. They hate the progression and anything that makes them go through it.
So now, companies are starting to see some of that mentality spread, and are shortcutting with the PvE side.. Warhammer is a great example of poor writing, poor design and poor PvE implementation. I assumed they focused all on the PvP side, but reading the VN boards and other places talking about sub numbers, I guess you can't say that either.
Do I believe there is room for PvE only, PvP only and Hybrids? Yes. But looking at the current year (2009) its all going to be hybrids. And I got a feeling they will all pick up where Warhammer and AoC left off... incomplete and leaving people lacking, trying to serve two masters.
Again im going to have to disagree. I pay no attention to warcraft lore, im not really all that interested. Some of use just wanna play with friends or family. Its not always about killing the dragon at the end or killing another player. So im one of those people, but I treat every person I encounter with respect. As for PvE I can find it some what enjoyable. But that enjoyment lasts for so long. It is nice to be able to log into a game with the best of gear to queue up for a arena or BG and show what your made of.
Edit: Really Neon is kinda right. It is a little dramatic to get worked up over /emot spits is it not? Thank god PvP allows you to stop that player from emoting anymore, eh?
Sorry. Won't respond to you, lest you get abusive again.
Please argue with someone else this time around. I did not make this thread.
You're over reacting and being a drama queen.
Thank you for proving my point. Good night and good luck.
What point is that? That you're being a drama queen and totally over reacting? Yeah I agree. You can choose to not reply to what I say if you like as thats up to you (although I think its a bit childish) but I will still reply freely and honestly to things that you type if it catches my attention. Same applies to anyone else really.
I agree with you on PvP needing PvE to survive. Look at Fury (lol). But without PvP a PvE game gets very boring and repetative. When you are done with end game waiting for the next patch to add more content what else is there to do, PvP maybe? PvP was not intended to be the primary goal, at first. But a lot of people are stepping forward wanting in on more competitive game play.
Really, its only on "egghead" forums like these, where all us nerds opine about we want more PvP. The average MMO gamer doesn't read these rags, they just look up a game in trade mags or word of mouth. Most of them prefer the style of grouping, because its cooperative and I believe that deep down, people really want to work together to defeat "monster" type mobs, not other people. They certainly don't want all the bragging and /emote fart /emote moon /emote spit that comes with PvP. If you talk to people who play WoW, this is what they prefer.
There IS a natural progression for some who played consoles and other Pvp games that moved into MMOs and don't like the time it takes to level characters up. In a typical pvp non-MMO, your character is maxed extremely fast, if there's any leveling to do at all. So they don't care about story or journey. I know plenty of people who I was talking to while playing CTD4, and they said they really didn't pay attention to missions in the single player side. They just wanted to come to the open killing and get busy. When these people come to MMOs, they want their MMOs the same way... hit max first month OR no leveling at all. They hate the progression and anything that makes them go through it.
So now, companies are starting to see some of that mentality spread, and are shortcutting with the PvE side.. Warhammer is a great example of poor writing, poor design and poor PvE implementation. I assumed they focused all on the PvP side, but reading the VN boards and other places talking about sub numbers, I guess you can't say that either.
Do I believe there is room for PvE only, PvP only and Hybrids? Yes. But looking at the current year (2009) its all going to be hybrids. And I got a feeling they will all pick up where Warhammer and AoC left off... incomplete and leaving people lacking, trying to serve two masters.
Again im going to have to disagree. I pay no attention to warcraft lore, im not really all that interested. Some of use just wanna play with friends or family. Its not always about killing the dragon at the end or killing another player. So im one of those people, but I treat every person I encounter with respect. As for PvE I can find it some what enjoyable. But that enjoyment lasts for so long. It is nice to be able to log into a game with the best of gear to queue up for a arena or BG and show what your made of.
I'm kinda both... I enjoy the lore and I enjoy playing with friends/family.
To me, the lore is part of my motivation in going through the quests. I want to see how the story unfolds. To me, it's almost like playing through a short-story, or a small novel. And there have been times I've been truly impressed by some twist of genius or laughed at some really funny dialog, or been moved by a particularly sad moment.
In FFXI, for example, there is amazing story-telling and character development. You get to identify the characters, you understand their actions based on how their personality has been fleshed out and sometimes you can predict (somewhat) what they're going to do - or be totally surprised because they *didn't* do what you expected.
So.. to me, the lore and story element of a game - be it MMO or otherwise - is as enjoyable as reading a good book or watching a good movie or TV series. It all involves suspension of disbelief and allowing yourself to be taken in by what's going on.
For me, were I to treat quests merely as an excuse to go kill more mobs, it would bore me to tears.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Dont get me wrong, I enjoy a good story. But warcrafts storyline has just never reached out to my intrests. MMOs with storys for me are just not my thing. But I do enjoy single player games. I think the best single player game I have played in a long time has been Assassins Creed. But back on topic. WoW only keeps me around because of its PvP and the people I know. In all honosty if the people I knew quit I would leave in a heartbeat and not look back. So im clearly leaned torwards playing with the ones I surround myself with in real life. But the PvP is my 2nd most enjoyable aspect of any mmo.
Wow is a successful PvE based subscription game. Maybe it was drawn up that way with some pvp in mind on certain servers, but most people play it as a PvE game, not on the open contested pvp servers. That shows what 12 million people think of PvP.
Saying "every game has bugs" isn't news to anyone, nor is it an excuse for Vanguard. Vanguard's bugs had bugs. Chunklline freezing, questing bugs, mob bugs, character bugs, city bugs... I don't know how you gloss over all of these. If you were truly in beta, they were worse than release. Look how many people preorder and actually BOUGHT Vanguard waiting for the PvE (and you know it was that, because they had no mechanic IN PLACE for PvP, remember?). Mostly a lot of the "old school" gamers who played original EQ1 who wanted.. wait for it... crafting and storylines. Not killing each other on a hamster wheel. And yes, even if you did a poll today, those who actually waited and played Vanguard would tell you if the game was implemented WITHOUT all those crazy bugs, they'd still be playing it. The bugs, the crafting and the unfinished things like Diplomacy ruined it for most. You should know this, not sure why a beta person wouldn't.
"The basis of WoW's success come from RvR pvp settings, both PvE servers and PvP servers have PvP." This part is just so untrue, looks like something Rush Limbaugh could have invented. Wow's success is owed to pvp. Hmm. Strange indeed.
To survive in the MMO world, that means: Paying off your creditors and keeping your game running. You do not have to be constantly expanding your base once your game is paid for. Once you recoup your outlay and your game is running, you have a skeleton crew and you crank out content from time to time. That is surviving. What is your definition? Hand to mouth like AoC or Warhammer? If you would like to focus on "survive" as the verb, so be it.
But know that just about any heavy PvE game is doing ok today; they aren't folding up or doing bad even in this economy. They are making money for their companies. That's surviving. Everyone cannot be WoW, friend. Other companies are content with the numbers they are getting and HAVE gotten in the past. Sorry if their idea of success or "surviving" doesn't mesh with what you think a game should do.
Originally posted by Rabenwolf"A successful mmorpg includes both the pvp and pve spheres, needs them in this day and age. It his how mmorpgs have become perfected."
And in which fantasyland does this game exist? If you say Wow, you'll probably be slapped for repeating that, as WoW is a HEAVY PvE game, and always was. Just curious, but are there more PvP areas/scenarios in WoW, or more PvE dungeons? Warsong, Arathi, Alterac, Eye o.t. Storm. And now Strand of the Ancients vs HOW many PvE dungeons? Hellfire Peninsula, Zangarmarsh, Terokkar Forest, and Nagrand I didn't add their pvp, because NO one wastes their time with this nonsense. Do you think when they add something next expansion, they will they add more pvp scenarios, or more dungeons? Are there more PvP servers OR more PvE servers?
There's your answer. That's what kind of game it is, regardless of the draw up.
The type of people that pvp games attract just happen to be the same type of people that have no qualms about destroying a community for their personal gain. Games with a self destructive community seldom last long or do well. There are, however, a few exceptions.
The first sentence speaks volumes about pvp mentality and why pvp communities have a well deserved bad rep.
The problem is not fully the pvp community. I remember playing games like MOHAA and Quake3 and the end result of a lose was "good game, I really enjoyed that". Now its "YOU GOT OWNED BITCH". But not every PvPer follows this. I love pvp, with every win or lose I end it with good game. The problem is not the community alone, but the moderators who let it go this far. In WoW you can destroy somebody and turn around and completly taunt them about there lose, the most that will be done is a slap on the wrist warning (if that) and they will be right back to offend another. And you can devote a small % of the problem to punk kids whose parents didnt see rated T for teen for there 11 year old kid.
You can't communicate with the opposite faction in WoW. You can do a few emotes but most of them will come out as "heartless did a strange gesture" to the other player. The worst you can do is /spit.
From my experience, personal insults get punished fairly quickly in WoW. People get suspended or banned. Stop blaming everything on WoW. What's next, you're going to blame WoW for global warming?
Douche bags have been around the internet long before WoW. I remember dealing with "lol pwnt" and "ez noob" in UO. As more and more people gain access to the internet, you see more of these types of gamers. The problem is that the PvP community as a whole attracts the angsty teen who needs to take his frustrations, caused by low self-esteem, on other people. With computers becoming a household appliance, more and more people can take out their anger on others without fear or reprisal.
Lol, you really took this to heart. Did you know on a pve server you can have both alliance and horde on the same server? So you could easily create a alt just to let the enemy know how much you hate them. Anyways I was refering to duels. I play WoW im blaming nothing on it. Im just using it as a refrence considering I play it. I could say it was in SWG but I dont play that anymore. Nice way to jump to conclusions. Really I would rather be refered to as a angsty teen if thats what It takes to enjoy PvP. PvP proves a lot then bot healing the main tank or using the same 4 skills in a row to keep up with rotation. So if im a Angsty teen, then what are you a mindless drone? Oh and "from my experience" what I said before still applys. I'll take my low self-esteem self back to battlegrounds, when you work up the courage to step your foot inside a pvp zone, let me know. You might enjoy it if you relax.
Edit: I just looked under you picture and see the words "pwnt" are you one of the douche bags thats been around the internet?
Just find it funny how every fault of this genre somehow gets attributed to WoW.
When I played WoW it was exclusively on a PvP server and I only raided a few times in MC and BWL before BC. Since I don't play WoW anymore, I don't think I'll be able to work my courage up to step inside a PvP zone, so, regretfully, I will not be letting you know.
My douche bag comment must've struck a nerve. I appologize, I didn't mean that you were a douche bag or an angsty teen, I meant that those are the types of people this play style tends to attract. If you don't consider yourself one of them, why get some defensive? People are so strange sometimes.
Anyway, have fun on your PvE server.
lol I will do my best to have fun on my PvE server. I have more fun on my PvP as I said in a earlier post. Did you even read your own post? According to anybody that does PvP is a angst teen. I said "I love pvp" so your insisting im a angst teen, do I need to go any futher? I never said you called me a douche, not once. I just found it funny how your icon signature says "pwnt" and you insult those who say it. Yes you are right, people are so strange sometimes.
Reading comprehension. You should look into it.
I'm saying that the the PvP play style attracts angsty teens. I didn't say that all PvPers are angsty teens.
Let me make an analogy for you. Cake attracts fat people, but not all people who eat cake are fat. Better?
Comments
Yes because gathering gear and having nothing to do with it other then to show it off and down the same bosses all the time is what its all about. Explain the negative effects, other then somebody destroying you ingame.
Brilliant! Very well said. You made me grin
@rhoklaw
Fizzcrank and Mug'thol here. I have family that plays PvE so im forced to be on Fizzcrank. And friends on Mug'Thol where I enjoy most of my stay in WoW. I play both factions.
www.warcraftmovies.com now that we have established that WoWs subs would be far less then they are now without PvP whats next? I get the feeling that half of you PvP haters was killed questing and had pixelated nutts dragged down your faces.
Vanguard did bad because it was buggy. You really should have experienced it and you would know what I mean. It wasn't because of missing PvP. It was buggy as hell and unplayable due to bad coding. That's it and that's the ONLY reason it failed.. not because of the premise. Ask around.. many will flat out tell you if Vanguard was not buggy, they'd be playing that instead of WoW right now.
A pvp game without any story is.. nothing. Name one. You can't because they have never existed. All pvp games, even consoles, have some type of PvE element in it. But again, you can PvE games without any or good pvp that made all their money back, and are still being played today.
But you asked for a PvE games doing well. Well, the reality is.. the good ones are all dated now, but still being played. FFXI is an old model. EQ2 is old. If you name any of the heavy PvE games out, they are all pretty much dated. LOTRO is the only one that comes to mind, but that game was always lacking excitement. They did VERY well when they first out, but people eventually got tired of them and tried other games. I played FFXI for almost 4 years, but wanted to try newer games and see how they were coming along. They are worse.
And btw: Wow is a PvE game and its doing extremely well. If all the people in Wow that pvp'ed left it tomorrow, the game would still be number one, so I think you point is lacking there. WoW as a pure PvE game still beats anything that is a hybrid out now, or any PvP game like DAOC or EVE combined. And WoW isn't even the best PvE game imo.
So no, a PURE PvE game does not need a PvP element in it to survive. But if you try to go the other way, you will fail. I don't know how you don't see that and say its "illogical". Maybe its illogical on paper, but in practice... that's reality.
"TO MICHAEL!"
If you like pvp it will most likely work, if you don't it most likely doesn't.......Some games work pvp better than others.
Some games work pve better than others.
You wanting someone to argue with you ok, but it's just a matter of taste not a cut and dry fact.
I liked EQ pve .....it was fun it was challenging......I didn't care for vanguard pve, found it too easy....but It's an opinion, does not mean that all pve is good or bad.
I can do the same for pvp games, but I'm sure you got the idea .
Whatcu talkin bout, Willis?
Who established that.. and with what proof? You really aren't that delusional to think if all the people playing Wow's pvp left tonight, the game would lose 6 or 7 million subs?
Because they have 12 million now, so you're implying they'd lose "far less then they are now"?
"TO MICHAEL!"
Ahh I see you're bringing your anti PvP crusade to other threads as well. You may as well face it......people want to have the choice to play games with AND against each other. Games developers know this and they also know that people are becoming really bored with logging online simply to play a single player game in multiplayer co-op mode. The internet is totally capable of providing a lot more than this to people and games are going to include PvP in their game design (unlike what we have been seeing so far) whether you like it or not.......and actually once you get a taste of a GOOD mmo you will probably find that you actually like it and will then look back at all the drab pure PvE games of the past with a "WTF?!!!" attitude.
Besides all of your thoughts seem to be based on the failed mmos we have been seeing so far. Stop being so pessimistic and try looking to the future and see how good games could actually be.
Vanguard did bad because it was buggy. You really should have experienced it and you would know what I mean. It wasn't because of missing PvP. It was buggy as hell and unplayable due to bad coding. That's it and that's the ONLY reason it failed.. not because of the premise. Ask around.. many will flat out tell you if Vanguard was not buggy, they'd be playing that instead of WoW right now.
A pvp game without any story is.. nothing. Name one. You can't because they have never existed. All pvp games, even consoles, have some type of PvE element in it. But again, you can PvE games without any or good pvp that made all their money back, and are still being played today.
But you asked for a PvE games doing well. Well, the reality is.. the good ones are all dated now, but still being played. FFXI is an old model. EQ2 is old. If you name any of the heavy PvE games out, they are all pretty much dated. LOTRO is the only one that comes to mind, but that game was always lacking excitement. They did VERY well when they first out, but people eventually got tired of them and tried other games. I played FFXI for almost 4 years, but wanted to try newer games and see how they were coming along. They are worse.
And btw: Wow is a PvE game and its doing extremely well. If all the people in Wow that pvp'ed left it tomorrow, the game would still be number one, so I think you point is lacking there. WoW as a pure PvE game still beats anything that is a hybrid out now, or any PvP game like DAOC or EVE combined. And WoW isn't even the best PvE game imo.
So no, a PURE PvE game does not need a PvP element in it to survive. But if you try to go the other way, you will fail. I don't know how you don't see that and say its "illogical". Maybe its illogical on paper, but in practice... that's reality.
I agree with you on PvP needing PvE to survive. Look at Fury (lol). But without PvP a PvE game gets very boring and repetative. When you are done with end game waiting for the next patch to add more content what else is there to do, PvP maybe? PvP was not intended to be the primary goal, at first. But a lot of people are stepping forward wanting in on more competitive game play.
Sorry. Won't respond to you, lest you get abusive again.
Please argue with someone else this time around. I did not make this thread.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Whatcu talkin bout, Willis?
Who established that.. and with what proof? You really aren't that delusional to think if all the people playing Wow's pvp left tonight, the game would lose 6 or 7 million subs?
Because they have 12 million now, so you're implying they'd lose "far less then they are now"?
Damnit Garry Coleman, when you read about people leaving WoW. Most of what you see is "arena raped my sister" or what ever. Where are you getting 6 or 7 million players leaving? Did i ever mention numbers, nope. Two million out of 12 million is far less in there eyes believe me. Now im using this as a example im in no way saying millions would leave. But I am saying that PvP plays a huge roll in WoW. Its Core is PvE but the Shell is PvP. On that site you can see that PvP is seen as a art form. Otherwise people would not record videos of themselves showing what skill they have. Thats what im talking about, garry.
This discussion is a moot point. PvP in MMOs is here to stay and will not be going anywhere. I think the solution to this problem has already been in place for years, both PVE servers and PVP servers.
The first sentence speaks volumes about pvp mentality and why pvp communities have a well deserved bad rep.
The problem is not fully the pvp community. I remember playing games like MOHAA and Quake3 and the end result of a lose was "good game, I really enjoyed that". Now its "YOU GOT OWNED BITCH". But not every PvPer follows this. I love pvp, with every win or lose I end it with good game. The problem is not the community alone, but the moderators who let it go this far. In WoW you can destroy somebody and turn around and completly taunt them about there lose, the most that will be done is a slap on the wrist warning (if that) and they will be right back to offend another. And you can devote a small % of the problem to punk kids whose parents didnt see rated T for teen for there 11 year old kid.
You can't communicate with the opposite faction in WoW. You can do a few emotes but most of them will come out as "heartless did a strange gesture" to the other player. The worst you can do is /spit.
From my experience, personal insults get punished fairly quickly in WoW. People get suspended or banned. Stop blaming everything on WoW. What's next, you're going to blame WoW for global warming?
Douche bags have been around the internet long before WoW. I remember dealing with "lol pwnt" and "ez noob" in UO. As more and more people gain access to the internet, you see more of these types of gamers. The problem is that the PvP community as a whole attracts the angsty teen who needs to take his frustrations, caused by low self-esteem, on other people. With computers becoming a household appliance, more and more people can take out their anger on others without fear or reprisal.
Lol, you really took this to heart. Did you know on a pve server you can have both alliance and horde on the same server? So you could easily create a alt just to let the enemy know how much you hate them. Anyways I was refering to duels. I play WoW im blaming nothing on it. Im just using it as a refrence considering I play it. I could say it was in SWG but I dont play that anymore. Nice way to jump to conclusions. Really I would rather be refered to as a angsty teen if thats what It takes to enjoy PvP. PvP proves a lot then bot healing the main tank or using the same 4 skills in a row to keep up with rotation. So if im a Angsty teen, then what are you a mindless drone? Oh and "from my experience" what I said before still applys. I'll take my low self-esteem self back to battlegrounds, when you work up the courage to step your foot inside a pvp zone, let me know. You might enjoy it if you relax.
Edit: I just looked under you picture and see the words "pwnt" are you one of the douche bags thats been around the internet?
Just find it funny how every fault of this genre somehow gets attributed to WoW.
When I played WoW it was exclusively on a PvP server and I only raided a few times in MC and BWL before BC. Since I don't play WoW anymore, I don't think I'll be able to work my courage up to step inside a PvP zone, so, regretfully, I will not be letting you know.
My douche bag comment must've struck a nerve. I appologize, I didn't mean that you were a douche bag or an angsty teen, I meant that those are the types of people this play style tends to attract. If you don't consider yourself one of them, why get some defensive? People are so strange sometimes.
Anyway, have fun on your PvE server.
Sorry. Won't respond to you, lest you get abusive again.
Please argue with someone else this time around. I did not make this thread.
You're over reacting and being a drama queen. What I said before in the other thread wasnt that bad and I apologised for it too. You can pretend that you were emotionally scarred by it if you like but thats up to you. Either way the thoughts will continue to flow and the fingers will continue to type.
Really, its only on "egghead" forums like these, where all us nerds opine about we want more PvP. The average MMO gamer doesn't read these rags, they just look up a game in trade mags or word of mouth. Most of them prefer the style of grouping, because its cooperative and I believe that deep down, people really want to work together to defeat "monster" type mobs, not other people. They certainly don't want all the bragging and /emote fart /emote moon /emote spit that comes with PvP. If you talk to people who play WoW, this is what they prefer.
There IS a natural progression for some who played consoles and other Pvp games that moved into MMOs and don't like the time it takes to level characters up. In a typical pvp non-MMO, your character is maxed extremely fast, if there's any leveling to do at all. So they don't care about story or journey. I know plenty of people who I was talking to while playing CTD4, and they said they really didn't pay attention to missions in the single player side. They just wanted to come to the open killing and get busy. When these people come to MMOs, they want their MMOs the same way... hit max first month OR no leveling at all. They hate the progression and anything that makes them go through it.
So now, companies are starting to see some of that mentality spread, and are shortcutting with the PvE side.. Warhammer is a great example of poor writing, poor design and poor PvE implementation. I assumed they focused all on the PvP side, but reading the VN boards and other places talking about sub numbers, I guess you can't say that either.
Do I believe there is room for PvE only, PvP only and Hybrids? Yes. But looking at the current year (2009) its all going to be hybrids. And I got a feeling they will all pick up where Warhammer and AoC left off... incomplete and leaving people lacking, trying to serve two masters.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Thank you for proving my point. Good night and good luck.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Vanguard did bad because it was buggy. You really should have experienced it and you would know what I mean. It wasn't because of missing PvP. It was buggy as hell and unplayable due to bad coding. That's it and that's the ONLY reason it failed.. not because of the premise. Ask around.. many will flat out tell you if Vanguard was not buggy, they'd be playing that instead of WoW right now.
A pvp game without any story is.. nothing. Name one. You can't because they have never existed. All pvp games, even consoles, have some type of PvE element in it. But again, you can PvE games without any or good pvp that made all their money back, and are still being played today.
But you asked for a PvE games doing well. Well, the reality is.. the good ones are all dated now, but still being played. FFXI is an old model. EQ2 is old. If you name any of the heavy PvE games out, they are all pretty much dated. LOTRO is the only one that comes to mind, but that game was always lacking excitement. They did VERY well when they first out, but people eventually got tired of them and tried other games. I played FFXI for almost 4 years, but wanted to try newer games and see how they were coming along. They are worse.
And btw: Wow is a PvE game and its doing extremely well. If all the people in Wow that pvp'ed left it tomorrow, the game would still be number one, so I think you point is lacking there. WoW as a pure PvE game still beats anything that is a hybrid out now, or any PvP game like DAOC or EVE combined. And WoW isn't even the best PvE game imo.
So no, a PURE PvE game does not need a PvP element in it to survive. But if you try to go the other way, you will fail. I don't know how you don't see that and say its "illogical". Maybe its illogical on paper, but in practice... that's reality.
Ok you make a couple of mistakes right off the bat. First you assume I wasnt around when Vanguard launched. In fact, i was in beta and played after release. I know very well about the bugs that were part of vanguard, but fact is, every game has bugs. If pve was the mainfocus of a successful mmorpg, you would see Vanguard becoming popular and successful. Fact is, its not.
Second mistake you made was saying "many will flat out tell you if Vanguard was not buggy, they'd be playing that instead of WoW right now." Thats just laugh out loud stupid, as is self explanitory.
The third mistake you make is assuming story == pve content. Story and lore do not need player vs monsters and npcs to exist. Again you seem to forget that PvE is a tool for character progression.
If put a beach ball in front of you and said "kick it"... you could either do it because you are bored, or you could ask "why?". If i said "that beach ball will take over the world and kill your family", then you would have a reason to kick it. But you see, the situation hasnt really changed. You are given two brainless options, kick the ball, or dont kick the ball. You dont need a reason for both pvp and pve, but it helps even though its still the same stupid thing. Objects in games are just that, objects with basic behavioral patterns. Its up to the developer to try to convince you to interact with the object, even if the object is a beach ball just sitting on the floor. PvP and PvE can be given reasons to do them, but those reasons as well as story does not rely on pvp or pve at all.
I really dont know where you are pulling this story == pve assumption from.
The fourth mistake you make is by assuming WoW is just a PvE game.The basis of WoW's success come from RvR pvp settings, both PvE servers and PvP servers have PvP. One allows world pvp the other is based on arena's and battle grounds.
WoW has been from its conception a pvp game while using both pvp and pve to show off the lore and include time sinks. Warcraft has always been about competition, playing against another side and nothing has changed.
Your final mistake is this "So no, a PURE PvE game does not need a PvP element in it to survive.". The key word in this quote of yours is "survive". I dont know if anyone has told you but the goal of a mmorpg investment is not to "survive" but to be successful. Barely surviving (just making enough subscription money to keep it going) is not a success. A successful mmorpg includes both the pvp and pve spheres, needs them in this day and age. It his how mmorpgs have become perfected.
An analogy, a minority might only want fish on their plate, and a small minority might only want chips on their plate, but a successful business knows that the masses are really interested in Fish & Chips together and will deliver such.
I hope this was educational for you.
There's certainly a portion of the community made up of the people you describe; those who use the openness and freedom of a FFA PvP MMO as open-season to harass as many other players as they can.
To be sure, they are not attracted to the game for its promise of unfettered PvP. They are attracted to it for its promise of doing nothing to stop them from behaving like assholes.
I would say the majority *are* looking for a open and more harsh PvP experience in the spirit of fierce competition.They understand the difference between competitive PvP and griefing/ganking easy targets purely for their own cheap thrills.
I think the trouble players are a minority... Unfortunately, they're a very active and very disruptive minority whom, if not reigned in, can and will drive many players from the game. Contrary to common misconception, it's not because their victims are "WoW carebears" (especially since this type of stuff happened long before WoW). Rather, it's because people who may well enjoy PvP do not enjoy being the easy kill for someone else to stroke their epeen.
Unfortunately, it seems that many more in the PvP community, instead of taking a step back and seeing the situation for what it is and understanding the differences, immediately regard any complaint of ganking or greifing as "another whiney carebear who can't handle real PvP". So... while they're not actively causing the problem, they're not exactly helping it either.
In my experience and in my opinion, the reason no anytime/anywhere wide-open FFA PvP MMO will ever rise to being anything more than a small niche game is two-fold:
1. That kind of gameplay appeals to a smaller audience
2. A portion of that audience login only to harass and annoy other players
3. Not all of the people in #1 are willing to pay a subscription to a game where their time is spent being harassed by the people in #2, and will leave for a different game.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The first sentence speaks volumes about pvp mentality and why pvp communities have a well deserved bad rep.
The problem is not fully the pvp community. I remember playing games like MOHAA and Quake3 and the end result of a lose was "good game, I really enjoyed that". Now its "YOU GOT OWNED BITCH". But not every PvPer follows this. I love pvp, with every win or lose I end it with good game. The problem is not the community alone, but the moderators who let it go this far. In WoW you can destroy somebody and turn around and completly taunt them about there lose, the most that will be done is a slap on the wrist warning (if that) and they will be right back to offend another. And you can devote a small % of the problem to punk kids whose parents didnt see rated T for teen for there 11 year old kid.
You can't communicate with the opposite faction in WoW. You can do a few emotes but most of them will come out as "heartless did a strange gesture" to the other player. The worst you can do is /spit.
From my experience, personal insults get punished fairly quickly in WoW. People get suspended or banned. Stop blaming everything on WoW. What's next, you're going to blame WoW for global warming?
Douche bags have been around the internet long before WoW. I remember dealing with "lol pwnt" and "ez noob" in UO. As more and more people gain access to the internet, you see more of these types of gamers. The problem is that the PvP community as a whole attracts the angsty teen who needs to take his frustrations, caused by low self-esteem, on other people. With computers becoming a household appliance, more and more people can take out their anger on others without fear or reprisal.
Lol, you really took this to heart. Did you know on a pve server you can have both alliance and horde on the same server? So you could easily create a alt just to let the enemy know how much you hate them. Anyways I was refering to duels. I play WoW im blaming nothing on it. Im just using it as a refrence considering I play it. I could say it was in SWG but I dont play that anymore. Nice way to jump to conclusions. Really I would rather be refered to as a angsty teen if thats what It takes to enjoy PvP. PvP proves a lot then bot healing the main tank or using the same 4 skills in a row to keep up with rotation. So if im a Angsty teen, then what are you a mindless drone? Oh and "from my experience" what I said before still applys. I'll take my low self-esteem self back to battlegrounds, when you work up the courage to step your foot inside a pvp zone, let me know. You might enjoy it if you relax.
Edit: I just looked under you picture and see the words "pwnt" are you one of the douche bags thats been around the internet?
Just find it funny how every fault of this genre somehow gets attributed to WoW.
When I played WoW it was exclusively on a PvP server and I only raided a few times in MC and BWL before BC. Since I don't play WoW anymore, I don't think I'll be able to work my courage up to step inside a PvP zone, so, regretfully, I will not be letting you know.
My douche bag comment must've struck a nerve. I appologize, I didn't mean that you were a douche bag or an angsty teen, I meant that those are the types of people this play style tends to attract. If you don't consider yourself one of them, why get some defensive? People are so strange sometimes.
Anyway, have fun on your PvE server.
lol I will do my best to have fun on my PvE server. I have more fun on my PvP as I said in a earlier post. Did you even read your own post? According to anybody that does PvP is a angst teen. I said "I love pvp" so your insisting im a angst teen, do I need to go any futher? I never said you called me a douche, not once. I just found it funny how your icon signature says "pwnt" and you insult those who say it. Yes you are right, people are so strange sometimes.
If you feed people mouldy apples and yet never show them what a good apple tastes like then they will naturally learn to dislike apples. Obviously this doesnt mean that apples are bad. You just need to try some good ones. Unfortunately people havent been growing many decent apples for a long time so they are in short supply. I think the future holds many nice tasty apples because nice tasty apples are what the internet is all about. If I'm going to play games on the internet with people then I want to share nice tasty apples with them.
Very good analogy
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Really, its only on "egghead" forums like these, where all us nerds opine about we want more PvP. The average MMO gamer doesn't read these rags, they just look up a game in trade mags or word of mouth. Most of them prefer the style of grouping, because its cooperative and I believe that deep down, people really want to work together to defeat "monster" type mobs, not other people. They certainly don't want all the bragging and /emote fart /emote moon /emote spit that comes with PvP. If you talk to people who play WoW, this is what they prefer.
There IS a natural progression for some who played consoles and other Pvp games that moved into MMOs and don't like the time it takes to level characters up. In a typical pvp non-MMO, your character is maxed extremely fast, if there's any leveling to do at all. So they don't care about story or journey. I know plenty of people who I was talking to while playing CTD4, and they said they really didn't pay attention to missions in the single player side. They just wanted to come to the open killing and get busy. When these people come to MMOs, they want their MMOs the same way... hit max first month OR no leveling at all. They hate the progression and anything that makes them go through it.
So now, companies are starting to see some of that mentality spread, and are shortcutting with the PvE side.. Warhammer is a great example of poor writing, poor design and poor PvE implementation. I assumed they focused all on the PvP side, but reading the VN boards and other places talking about sub numbers, I guess you can't say that either.
Do I believe there is room for PvE only, PvP only and Hybrids? Yes. But looking at the current year (2009) its all going to be hybrids. And I got a feeling they will all pick up where Warhammer and AoC left off... incomplete and leaving people lacking, trying to serve two masters.
Again im going to have to disagree. I pay no attention to warcraft lore, im not really all that interested. Some of use just wanna play with friends or family. Its not always about killing the dragon at the end or killing another player. So im one of those people, but I treat every person I encounter with respect. As for PvE I can find it some what enjoyable. But that enjoyment lasts for so long. It is nice to be able to log into a game with the best of gear to queue up for a arena or BG and show what your made of.
Edit: Really Neon is kinda right. It is a little dramatic to get worked up over /emot spits is it not? Thank god PvP allows you to stop that player from emoting anymore, eh?
Sorry. Won't respond to you, lest you get abusive again.
Please argue with someone else this time around. I did not make this thread.
You're over reacting and being a drama queen.
Thank you for proving my point. Good night and good luck.
What point is that? That you're being a drama queen and totally over reacting? Yeah I agree. You can choose to not reply to what I say if you like as thats up to you (although I think its a bit childish) but I will still reply freely and honestly to things that you type if it catches my attention. Same applies to anyone else really.
Oh and its morning for me.
Really, its only on "egghead" forums like these, where all us nerds opine about we want more PvP. The average MMO gamer doesn't read these rags, they just look up a game in trade mags or word of mouth. Most of them prefer the style of grouping, because its cooperative and I believe that deep down, people really want to work together to defeat "monster" type mobs, not other people. They certainly don't want all the bragging and /emote fart /emote moon /emote spit that comes with PvP. If you talk to people who play WoW, this is what they prefer.
There IS a natural progression for some who played consoles and other Pvp games that moved into MMOs and don't like the time it takes to level characters up. In a typical pvp non-MMO, your character is maxed extremely fast, if there's any leveling to do at all. So they don't care about story or journey. I know plenty of people who I was talking to while playing CTD4, and they said they really didn't pay attention to missions in the single player side. They just wanted to come to the open killing and get busy. When these people come to MMOs, they want their MMOs the same way... hit max first month OR no leveling at all. They hate the progression and anything that makes them go through it.
So now, companies are starting to see some of that mentality spread, and are shortcutting with the PvE side.. Warhammer is a great example of poor writing, poor design and poor PvE implementation. I assumed they focused all on the PvP side, but reading the VN boards and other places talking about sub numbers, I guess you can't say that either.
Do I believe there is room for PvE only, PvP only and Hybrids? Yes. But looking at the current year (2009) its all going to be hybrids. And I got a feeling they will all pick up where Warhammer and AoC left off... incomplete and leaving people lacking, trying to serve two masters.
Again im going to have to disagree. I pay no attention to warcraft lore, im not really all that interested. Some of use just wanna play with friends or family. Its not always about killing the dragon at the end or killing another player. So im one of those people, but I treat every person I encounter with respect. As for PvE I can find it some what enjoyable. But that enjoyment lasts for so long. It is nice to be able to log into a game with the best of gear to queue up for a arena or BG and show what your made of.
I'm kinda both... I enjoy the lore and I enjoy playing with friends/family.
To me, the lore is part of my motivation in going through the quests. I want to see how the story unfolds. To me, it's almost like playing through a short-story, or a small novel. And there have been times I've been truly impressed by some twist of genius or laughed at some really funny dialog, or been moved by a particularly sad moment.
In FFXI, for example, there is amazing story-telling and character development. You get to identify the characters, you understand their actions based on how their personality has been fleshed out and sometimes you can predict (somewhat) what they're going to do - or be totally surprised because they *didn't* do what you expected.
So.. to me, the lore and story element of a game - be it MMO or otherwise - is as enjoyable as reading a good book or watching a good movie or TV series. It all involves suspension of disbelief and allowing yourself to be taken in by what's going on.
For me, were I to treat quests merely as an excuse to go kill more mobs, it would bore me to tears.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
@MSImike
Dont get me wrong, I enjoy a good story. But warcrafts storyline has just never reached out to my intrests. MMOs with storys for me are just not my thing. But I do enjoy single player games. I think the best single player game I have played in a long time has been Assassins Creed. But back on topic. WoW only keeps me around because of its PvP and the people I know. In all honosty if the people I knew quit I would leave in a heartbeat and not look back. So im clearly leaned torwards playing with the ones I surround myself with in real life. But the PvP is my 2nd most enjoyable aspect of any mmo.
Wow is a successful PvE based subscription game. Maybe it was drawn up that way with some pvp in mind on certain servers, but most people play it as a PvE game, not on the open contested pvp servers. That shows what 12 million people think of PvP.
Saying "every game has bugs" isn't news to anyone, nor is it an excuse for Vanguard. Vanguard's bugs had bugs. Chunklline freezing, questing bugs, mob bugs, character bugs, city bugs... I don't know how you gloss over all of these. If you were truly in beta, they were worse than release. Look how many people preorder and actually BOUGHT Vanguard waiting for the PvE (and you know it was that, because they had no mechanic IN PLACE for PvP, remember?). Mostly a lot of the "old school" gamers who played original EQ1 who wanted.. wait for it... crafting and storylines. Not killing each other on a hamster wheel. And yes, even if you did a poll today, those who actually waited and played Vanguard would tell you if the game was implemented WITHOUT all those crazy bugs, they'd still be playing it. The bugs, the crafting and the unfinished things like Diplomacy ruined it for most. You should know this, not sure why a beta person wouldn't.
"The basis of WoW's success come from RvR pvp settings, both PvE servers and PvP servers have PvP." This part is just so untrue, looks like something Rush Limbaugh could have invented. Wow's success is owed to pvp. Hmm. Strange indeed.
To survive in the MMO world, that means: Paying off your creditors and keeping your game running. You do not have to be constantly expanding your base once your game is paid for. Once you recoup your outlay and your game is running, you have a skeleton crew and you crank out content from time to time. That is surviving. What is your definition? Hand to mouth like AoC or Warhammer? If you would like to focus on "survive" as the verb, so be it.
But know that just about any heavy PvE game is doing ok today; they aren't folding up or doing bad even in this economy. They are making money for their companies. That's surviving. Everyone cannot be WoW, friend. Other companies are content with the numbers they are getting and HAVE gotten in the past. Sorry if their idea of success or "surviving" doesn't mesh with what you think a game should do.
And in which fantasyland does this game exist? If you say Wow, you'll probably be slapped for repeating that, as WoW is a HEAVY PvE game, and always was. Just curious, but are there more PvP areas/scenarios in WoW, or more PvE dungeons? Warsong, Arathi, Alterac, Eye o.t. Storm. And now Strand of the Ancients vs HOW many PvE dungeons? Hellfire Peninsula, Zangarmarsh, Terokkar Forest, and Nagrand I didn't add their pvp, because NO one wastes their time with this nonsense. Do you think when they add something next expansion, they will they add more pvp scenarios, or more dungeons? Are there more PvP servers OR more PvE servers?
There's your answer. That's what kind of game it is, regardless of the draw up.
"TO MICHAEL!"
The first sentence speaks volumes about pvp mentality and why pvp communities have a well deserved bad rep.
The problem is not fully the pvp community. I remember playing games like MOHAA and Quake3 and the end result of a lose was "good game, I really enjoyed that". Now its "YOU GOT OWNED BITCH". But not every PvPer follows this. I love pvp, with every win or lose I end it with good game. The problem is not the community alone, but the moderators who let it go this far. In WoW you can destroy somebody and turn around and completly taunt them about there lose, the most that will be done is a slap on the wrist warning (if that) and they will be right back to offend another. And you can devote a small % of the problem to punk kids whose parents didnt see rated T for teen for there 11 year old kid.
You can't communicate with the opposite faction in WoW. You can do a few emotes but most of them will come out as "heartless did a strange gesture" to the other player. The worst you can do is /spit.
From my experience, personal insults get punished fairly quickly in WoW. People get suspended or banned. Stop blaming everything on WoW. What's next, you're going to blame WoW for global warming?
Douche bags have been around the internet long before WoW. I remember dealing with "lol pwnt" and "ez noob" in UO. As more and more people gain access to the internet, you see more of these types of gamers. The problem is that the PvP community as a whole attracts the angsty teen who needs to take his frustrations, caused by low self-esteem, on other people. With computers becoming a household appliance, more and more people can take out their anger on others without fear or reprisal.
Lol, you really took this to heart. Did you know on a pve server you can have both alliance and horde on the same server? So you could easily create a alt just to let the enemy know how much you hate them. Anyways I was refering to duels. I play WoW im blaming nothing on it. Im just using it as a refrence considering I play it. I could say it was in SWG but I dont play that anymore. Nice way to jump to conclusions. Really I would rather be refered to as a angsty teen if thats what It takes to enjoy PvP. PvP proves a lot then bot healing the main tank or using the same 4 skills in a row to keep up with rotation. So if im a Angsty teen, then what are you a mindless drone? Oh and "from my experience" what I said before still applys. I'll take my low self-esteem self back to battlegrounds, when you work up the courage to step your foot inside a pvp zone, let me know. You might enjoy it if you relax.
Edit: I just looked under you picture and see the words "pwnt" are you one of the douche bags thats been around the internet?
Just find it funny how every fault of this genre somehow gets attributed to WoW.
When I played WoW it was exclusively on a PvP server and I only raided a few times in MC and BWL before BC. Since I don't play WoW anymore, I don't think I'll be able to work my courage up to step inside a PvP zone, so, regretfully, I will not be letting you know.
My douche bag comment must've struck a nerve. I appologize, I didn't mean that you were a douche bag or an angsty teen, I meant that those are the types of people this play style tends to attract. If you don't consider yourself one of them, why get some defensive? People are so strange sometimes.
Anyway, have fun on your PvE server.
lol I will do my best to have fun on my PvE server. I have more fun on my PvP as I said in a earlier post. Did you even read your own post? According to anybody that does PvP is a angst teen. I said "I love pvp" so your insisting im a angst teen, do I need to go any futher? I never said you called me a douche, not once. I just found it funny how your icon signature says "pwnt" and you insult those who say it. Yes you are right, people are so strange sometimes.
Reading comprehension. You should look into it.
I'm saying that the the PvP play style attracts angsty teens. I didn't say that all PvPers are angsty teens.
Let me make an analogy for you. Cake attracts fat people, but not all people who eat cake are fat. Better?