And in which fantasyland does this game exist? If you say Wow, you'll probably be slapped for repeating that, as WoW is a HEAVY PvE game, and always was. Just curious, but are there more PvP areas/scenarios in WoW, or more PvE dungeons? Warsong, Arathi, Alterac, Eye o.t. Storm. And now Strand of the Ancients vs HOW many PvE dungeons? Hellfire Peninsula, Zangarmarsh, Terokkar Forest, and Nagrand I didn't add their pvp, because NO one wastes their time with this nonsense. Do you think when they add something next expansion, they will they add more pvp scenarios, or more dungeons? Are there more PvP servers OR more PvE servers? There's your answer. That's what kind of game it is, regardless of the draw up.
I think they will because Wintergrasp was a huge success. They found the world pvp formula here and im sure it will be applied many more times, only to be enhanced each time.
The type of people that pvp games attract just happen to be the same type of people that have no qualms about destroying a community for their personal gain. Games with a self destructive community seldom last long or do well. There are, however, a few exceptions.
The first sentence speaks volumes about pvp mentality and why pvp communities have a well deserved bad rep.
The problem is not fully the pvp community. I remember playing games like MOHAA and Quake3 and the end result of a lose was "good game, I really enjoyed that". Now its "YOU GOT OWNED BITCH". But not every PvPer follows this. I love pvp, with every win or lose I end it with good game. The problem is not the community alone, but the moderators who let it go this far. In WoW you can destroy somebody and turn around and completly taunt them about there lose, the most that will be done is a slap on the wrist warning (if that) and they will be right back to offend another. And you can devote a small % of the problem to punk kids whose parents didnt see rated T for teen for there 11 year old kid.
You can't communicate with the opposite faction in WoW. You can do a few emotes but most of them will come out as "heartless did a strange gesture" to the other player. The worst you can do is /spit.
From my experience, personal insults get punished fairly quickly in WoW. People get suspended or banned. Stop blaming everything on WoW. What's next, you're going to blame WoW for global warming?
Douche bags have been around the internet long before WoW. I remember dealing with "lol pwnt" and "ez noob" in UO. As more and more people gain access to the internet, you see more of these types of gamers. The problem is that the PvP community as a whole attracts the angsty teen who needs to take his frustrations, caused by low self-esteem, on other people. With computers becoming a household appliance, more and more people can take out their anger on others without fear or reprisal.
Lol, you really took this to heart. Did you know on a pve server you can have both alliance and horde on the same server? So you could easily create a alt just to let the enemy know how much you hate them. Anyways I was refering to duels. I play WoW im blaming nothing on it. Im just using it as a refrence considering I play it. I could say it was in SWG but I dont play that anymore. Nice way to jump to conclusions. Really I would rather be refered to as a angsty teen if thats what It takes to enjoy PvP. PvP proves a lot then bot healing the main tank or using the same 4 skills in a row to keep up with rotation. So if im a Angsty teen, then what are you a mindless drone? Oh and "from my experience" what I said before still applys. I'll take my low self-esteem self back to battlegrounds, when you work up the courage to step your foot inside a pvp zone, let me know. You might enjoy it if you relax.
Edit: I just looked under you picture and see the words "pwnt" are you one of the douche bags thats been around the internet?
Just find it funny how every fault of this genre somehow gets attributed to WoW.
When I played WoW it was exclusively on a PvP server and I only raided a few times in MC and BWL before BC. Since I don't play WoW anymore, I don't think I'll be able to work my courage up to step inside a PvP zone, so, regretfully, I will not be letting you know.
My douche bag comment must've struck a nerve. I appologize, I didn't mean that you were a douche bag or an angsty teen, I meant that those are the types of people this play style tends to attract. If you don't consider yourself one of them, why get some defensive? People are so strange sometimes.
Anyway, have fun on your PvE server.
lol I will do my best to have fun on my PvE server. I have more fun on my PvP as I said in a earlier post. Did you even read your own post? According to anybody that does PvP is a angst teen. I said "I love pvp" so your insisting im a angst teen, do I need to go any futher? I never said you called me a douche, not once. I just found it funny how your icon signature says "pwnt" and you insult those who say it. Yes you are right, people are so strange sometimes.
Reading comprehension. You should look into it.
I'm saying that the the PvP play style attracts angsty teens. I didn't say that all PvPers are angsty teens.
Let me make an analogy for you. Cake attracts fat people, but not all people who eat cake are fat. Better?
Word usage, you should look into it
you saying that the PvP play style atracks angsty teens is the same thing as saying PvPers are angsty teens. Quoting you "the problem is that the PvP community as a whole attracts the angsty teen". You never said partial. Thanks your anology does not apply here. Now you say play style before it was community, lol what next global warming? you see what i did there?
Wow is a successful PvE based subscription game. Maybe it was drawn up that way with some pvp in mind on certain servers, but most people play it as a PvE game, not on the open contested pvp servers. That shows what 12 million people think of PvP.
Saying "every game has bugs" isn't news to anyone, nor is it an excuse for Vanguard. Vanguard's bugs had bugs. Chunklline freezing, questing bugs, mob bugs, character bugs, city bugs... I don't know how you gloss over all of these. If you were truly in beta, they were worse than release. Look how many people preorder and actually BOUGHT Vanguard waiting for the PvE (and you know it was that, because they had no mechanic IN PLACE for PvP, remember?). Mostly a lot of the "old school" gamers who played original EQ1 who wanted.. wait for it... crafting and storylines. Not killing each other on a hamster wheel. And yes, even if you did a poll today, those who actually waited and played Vanguard would tell you if the game was implemented WITHOUT all those crazy bugs, they'd still be playing it. The bugs, the crafting and the unfinished things like Diplomacy ruined it for most. You should know this, not sure why a beta person wouldn't.
"The basis of WoW's success come from RvR pvp settings, both PvE servers and PvP servers have PvP." This part is just so untrue, looks like something Rush Limbaugh could have invented. Wow's success is owed to pvp. Hmm. Strange indeed.
To survive in the MMO world, that means: Paying off your creditors and keeping your game running. You do not have to be constantly expanding your base once your game is paid for. Once you recoup your outlay and your game is running, you have a skeleton crew and you crank out content from time to time. That is surviving. What is your definition? Hand to mouth like AoC or Warhammer? If you would like to focus on "survive" as the verb, so be it.
But know that just about any heavy PvE game is doing ok today; they aren't folding up or doing bad even in this economy. They are making money for their companies. That's surviving. Everyone cannot be WoW, friend. Other companies are content with the numbers they are getting and HAVE gotten in the past. Sorry if their idea of success or "surviving" doesn't mesh with what you think a game should do.
Originally posted by Rabenwolf"A successful mmorpg includes both the pvp and pve spheres, needs them in this day and age. It his how mmorpgs have become perfected."
And in which fantasyland does this game exist? If you say Wow, you'll probably be slapped for repeating that, as WoW is a HEAVY PvE game, and always was. Just curious, but are there more PvP areas/scenarios in WoW, or more PvE dungeons? Warsong, Arathi, Alterac, Eye o.t. Storm. And now Strand of the Ancients vs HOW many PvE dungeons? Hellfire Peninsula, Zangarmarsh, Terokkar Forest, and Nagrand I didn't add their pvp, because NO one wastes their time with this nonsense. Do you think when they add something next expansion, they will they add more pvp scenarios, or more dungeons? Are there more PvP servers OR more PvE servers?
There's your answer. That's what kind of game it is, regardless of the draw up.
WoW as an equally pvp focused game is proven by a couple simple facts you cant seem to accept. Fact: races and clases are balanced against eachother. If PvP was not of equal or greater value to the games design, class and race balance wouldnt mean much, but its a heavy focus with WoW. Fact: There are more contested areas of the game than there are green safe zones. Know what this means? Yes the world becomes a pvp zone. The game is focused on pvp the moment you enter a contested zone, which means the opposite side can attack you and vice versa without being flagged for pvp.
Im sorry but at this point you are just talking to hear yourself talk. PvP is a part of every facet of WoW's design, even on pve servers. To be honest, you really cannot argue this, and i have a feeling that if you do you are more obsessed with your own argument and stance than you are with the truth.
Smart games make use of PvE as a tool for character progression, as a means to fill up the world with non player characters to give off the illusion of it being alive, and as a form of time sinks to keep the player interested as well as practice. Its not necessary, which you seem to think, but it sure as hell is easier.
"To survive in the MMO world, that means: Paying off your creditors and keeping your game running. You do not have to be constantly expanding your base once your game is paid for. Once you recoup your outlay and your game is running, you have a skeleton crew and you crank out content from time to time. That is surviving. What is your definition? Hand to mouth like AoC or Warhammer? If you would like to focus on "survive" as the verb, so be it. "
Im curious as to where you are getting your definitions, do you have a magical dictionary? I have a feeling you are just pulling this out of your own perception rather than any factual information know as a concrete truth. You miss the point as well, you keep trying compare survival with success. Survival is if your company didnt go bankrupt champ.
Success is when your investment pays off, your company flourishes, you get enough money to support your next venture without fear and you have a great franchise on your hands. This is success. In the game industry, if all you do is barely survive, you wont find many jobs or places with open arms welcoming you.
What investors want to see in a mmorpg is a gain, always a gain in subscription numbers. You have a projected profit goal that you set for yourself. I garantee you that the profit goals is always much higher than just barely paying the bills.
Essentially as another poster said, you seem to have an agenda here, which is anti-pvp. That fact shows that you are not qualified to be taken seriously as someone who knows the industry and is familiar with game design, in this regard, with mmorpgs.
Pvp and Pve are not banners you rally under, its not like democrat and republican. Its not picking one or the other. Only fools look at it that way.
PvP and PvE are tools, they are rule sets and limitations that make up the challenges faced a game. For any game designer, the first step towards understanding game design theory, is to undersand what exactly a game is. A challenge created by limitations given by a ruleset. Do you understand?
To a computer and to a game designer, pvp and pve are the same thing, objects with values, the difference is in the input, one from the code (AI) and the other influenced by another player.
I think its partially human nature this day and age to be stupid, trying to turn everything into a banner in which to rally under. Its stupid to think along those lines, pvp and pve are not sides you have to pick and fight for. They are just two and one (since they are really similar) features in a successful online games code.
Realm pride and RVR of DAOC and PVE and Raiding of WoW can't exisist in the same game?Warhammer and Wow have learned the lesson you players prefer the easiness of the battlegrounds and will stop fighting in the real world if the rewards in the battle grounds are too good.If Wow didn't have arenas and bg they would have decent RVR and if they reward RvR like they do arenas and BG they would have great RVR.
Realm pride and RVR of DAOC and PVE and Raiding of WoW can't exisist in the same game?Warhammer and Wow have learned the lesson you players prefer the easiness of the battlegrounds and will stop fighting in the real world if the rewards in the battle grounds are too good.If Wow didn't have arenas and bg they would have decent RVR and if they reward RvR like they do arenas and BG they would have great RVR.
Doesnt RvR mean Realm versus Realm? If so im pretty sure RvR is possible in wow only because of BG and arena. So what the hell are you going on about. WoW has a huge world. World pvp is still in action. BG and Arena is just to jump strait into it without having to go look for it. Wintergrasp has rewards does it not?
Realm pride and RVR of DAOC and PVE and Raiding of WoW can't exisist in the same game?Warhammer and Wow have learned the lesson you players prefer the easiness of the battlegrounds and will stop fighting in the real world if the rewards in the battle grounds are too good.If Wow didn't have arenas and bg they would have decent RVR and if they reward RvR like they do arenas and BG they would have great RVR.
Doesnt RvR mean Realm versus Realm? If so im pretty sure RvR is possible in wow only because of BG and arena. So what the hell are you going on about. WoW has a huge world. World pvp is still in action. BG and Arena is just to jump strait into it without having to go look for it. Wintergrasp has rewards does it not?
Wow has factions why isn't the combat in Wow as good Daoc.Wintergrasp is wow first real attempt RvR battles.I have no probelm with Bg and arenas except the real world combat should be reward more than mini games.My point was if the devs had made different choices they could both awesome pvp of daoc with out hurting pve in the game.
I cant comment on DAoC because I have never tried it. I cant really argue against this now that I understand what your saying. World PvP is more fun, because its unexpected and shows dominance over a territory which is harder then being thrown into a small sandbox always on alert. I agree with this. So I get what your on about now
@MSImike Dont get me wrong, I enjoy a good story. But warcrafts storyline has just never reached out to my intrests. MMOs with storys for me are just not my thing. But I do enjoy single player games. I think the best single player game I have played in a long time has been Assassins Creed. But back on topic. WoW only keeps me around because of its PvP and the people I know. In all honosty if the people I knew quit I would leave in a heartbeat and not look back. So im clearly leaned torwards playing with the ones I surround myself with in real life. But the PvP is my 2nd most enjoyable aspect of any mmo.
Oh no argument/disagreement here, heheh.
I was just sharing my personal take on it... Providing another angle, so to speak .
Although I don't think it's so much "a story" in WoW, but more various smaller story arcs, which is why I refer to them like short stories.
One that comes to mind is the story arc of Tirion out in E. Plaguelands. At first he's just some random guy outside a small shack. You go through a questline with him where he reveals his identity and tells you of what's happened to him and his son... Later in the game, (WoTLK, in fact), he makes a quite impressive return. His is an interesting story, that made me want to get through the quests to see where it would go next.
But I can see how people might not be able to get into the stories in a game, since there's so much else going on around it.
Not trying to prop myself up as anyone special, but I think there are fewer people like me than not; at least based on the impatience of some people when I'm questing with them and they want me to just skip the dialog so they can hurry and finish it.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I've always held the opinion that PvP in a class-based MMO is inherently never going to be fair.
There'll always be whines along the lines of "why can't I as a <insert class> beat a <insert class>?" to which the MMO development company inevitably trots out the party line: "PvP isn't balanced 1v1" as though that absolves the of any responsibility to even try.
It's one of the things that I truly dislike about WoW; one gets the distinct impression that the developers are expending massive amounts of both time and energy purely on "class balance" to the detriment of the games advancement in areas such as crafting, player-housing and other "fluff" elements.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
@MSImike Dont get me wrong, I enjoy a good story. But warcrafts storyline has just never reached out to my intrests. MMOs with storys for me are just not my thing. But I do enjoy single player games. I think the best single player game I have played in a long time has been Assassins Creed. But back on topic. WoW only keeps me around because of its PvP and the people I know. In all honosty if the people I knew quit I would leave in a heartbeat and not look back. So im clearly leaned torwards playing with the ones I surround myself with in real life. But the PvP is my 2nd most enjoyable aspect of any mmo.
Oh no argument/disagreement here, heheh.
I was just sharing my personal take on it... Providing another angle, so to speak .
Although I don't think it's so much "a story" in WoW, but more various smaller story arcs, which is why I refer to them like short stories.
One that comes to mind is the story arc of Tirion out in E. Plaguelands. At first he's just some random guy outside a small shack. You go through a questline with him where he reveals his identity and tells you of what's happened to him and his son... Later in the game, (WoTLK, in fact), he makes a quite impressive return. His is an interesting story, that made me want to get through the quests to see where it would go next.
But I can see how people might not be able to get into the stories in a game, since there's so much else going on around it.
Not trying to prop myself up as anyone special, but I think there are fewer people like me than not; at least based on the impatience of some people when I'm questing with them and they want me to just skip the dialog so they can hurry and finish it.
When I first started playing mmos years ago back in the days of EQ1 I used to pay attention to the storylines written into the games. I liked feeling immersed in the game world. Later as more mmos came out I would read up on the background lore and think of how my character would fit into the game world. Now I no longer bother with any of this. Why? Well its for a number of reasons actually.
Firstly I have grown up and learned to face the fact that the story has got nothing to do with how I play the game. The devs might have spent ages writing up some epic storyline to go with the quests but following the story doesnt help me to make any decisions in the gameworld........and thats because I CANT make any decisions (which brings me to my next point).
All I can do in these mmos is do the quests, go up levels and progress through the map. I dont get to make any decisions in the game. Its either do the quests laid out for me and progress or dont do the quests and dont progress. The story that goes along with the quests is just fluff. Even if it was all removed from the game it wouldnt really effect how I play the game. Losing the story and the npc dialogue (one sided dialogue mind you because I cant truly interact with an npc) doesnt hinder me in any way. Knowing that Lord Varkon is secretly the son of Queen Wibblyslippers doesnt help me kill 10 boars. If I was able to actually make decisions in the game related to the story by choosing quests which influenced the outcome of the story then I might pay more attention to it but as I am a mere bystander in a story which I cant actually take part in then it rarely grabs me.
Thirdly the story writing in mmos isnt even vaguely comparable to a good book or a film. I think its piss poor to be honest and nearly always extremely childish. I cant think of any mmo which has impressed me in this regard. I see quite a bit of disgust on these forums aimed at people who just "rush through the content" without bothering to read it all. The impression is given that these people are impatient and lack appreciation for the story. I could be classed as one of these people but I like to take my time in an mmo and appreciate the gameworld I am in. I focus on the gameworld but I pay the bare minimum of attention to the storyline not because I dont appreciate a good story but because of the complete opposite. I find the stories presented in these mmo to be insulting to my intelligence. There is better writing skill on the kids cartoon network.
If these mmos were well written then I might pay more attention to what they have to say. Instead I get my immersion from using my own imagination and relying on the audio and visual experience and the gameplay. Afterall thats what playing computer games is really about. If a game has its players clicking through pages of text telling them stories then its not doing a very good job of being a game in my opinion.....especially if the conclusion of all that reading boils down to the player walking to a location a few minutes away and clicking on an object and then returning. Effectively all they are doing then is being forced to go through the long winded equivalent of turning the page of a book......and I think games should be more than simple interactive online books.
Besides I think the players should be making their own stories with their own actions instead of having the game tell them what is happening. Let the players tell the computer what is happening instead. Let the players make the decisions and shape the game world. If I want to read a story I will read a good book or watch a film as it totally crushes anything offered by any mmo.
Heh, same reasons as me! I've played so many games over the decades that I'm not that interested in backstories to games any more. When you've seen more than a dozen, you've seen them all.
Originally posted by HDomni Word usage, you should look into it
you saying that the PvP play style atracks angsty teens is the same thing as saying PvPers are angsty teens. Quoting you "the problem is that the PvP community as a whole attracts the angsty teen". You never said partial. Thanks your anology does not apply here. Now you say play style before it was community, lol what next global warming? you see what i did there?
The PvP play style is what makes the PvP community. Therefore it is an essential part of that particular community.
As for my usage of the phrase "as a whole" if you read it carefully, it means that everything about the community attracts the angsty teen. Not that the whole community is made up of angsty teens.
Let me know if you're having trouble understanding something else, I'll gladly explain.
PvP has only had a negative effect on MMO's. Let's hope Darkfall succeeds at being the ass-magnet game it wants to be. littlemonkey
The implementation of PvP in has been creatively ugly. It really reached its nadir, though developers thought it was its zenith, when PvP became THE focus of the MMORPG.
PvP should be a feature, but it should be a feature implemented in terms of immersion, customization, and lore
Political assassinations;
Bounty hunts;
Duels;
Perhaps raiding merchant ships;
Perhaps castle sieges.
PVP SHOULD NOT BE
THE focus of an MMORPG;
Randomly going up to people and "killing" them; or
Some sort of instanced area with a predictable, linear PvP path
PvP has only had a negative effect on MMO's. Let's hope Darkfall succeeds at being the ass-magnet game it wants to be. littlemonkey
The implementation of PvP in has been creatively ugly. It really reached its nadir, though developers thought it was its zenith, when PvP became THE focus of the MMORPG.
PvP should be a feature, but it should be a feature implemented in terms of immersion, customization, and lore
Political assassinations;
Bounty hunts;
Duels;
Perhaps raiding merchant ships;
Perhaps castle sieges.
PVP SHOULD NOT BE
THE focus of an MMORPG;
Randomly going up to people and "killing" them; or
Some sort of instanced area with a predictable, linear PvP path
+1
And people need to stop thinking that PvP in an MMO is a way to PwN n00bs until they make the game play EXACTLY like FPS multiplayers....anything static or repetitive without requiring strategy and good coordination......fails
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
"it means that everything about the community attracts the angsty teen. Not that the whole community is made up of angsty teens."
Okay so if the community attracts the angsty teen then the community has to be relative to their intrest, basic human nature is to go where you fit in. You will never see a antilop approach a cheetah with a smile. You keep typing but never do any explaining. Why does the community attract angsty teens? Gladly explain.
PvP has only had a negative effect on MMO's. Let's hope Darkfall succeeds at being the ass-magnet game it wants to be. littlemonkey
The implementation of PvP in has been creatively ugly. It really reached its nadir, though developers thought it was its zenith, when PvP became THE focus of the MMORPG.
PvP should be a feature, but it should be a feature implemented in terms of immersion, customization, and lore
Political assassinations;
Bounty hunts;
Duels;
Perhaps raiding merchant ships;
Perhaps castle sieges.
PVP SHOULD NOT BE
THE focus of an MMORPG;
Randomly going up to people and "killing" them; or
Some sort of instanced area with a predictable, linear PvP path
+1
And people need to stop thinking that PvP in an MMO is a way to PwN n00bs until they make the game play EXACTLY like FPS multiplayers....anything static or repetitive without requiring strategy and good coordination......fails
Because arena requires no strategy or cordination in WoW its just mindless repetitive material. PvE on the other hand that requires strategy, for one you have to research the boss and once you do that you have to apply the same strategy every 300 times you kill him! BRILLIANT!
PvP is the main reason to play MMO's IMO. Otherwise its just a glorified Baldur's Gate.
Yes people play mmoRPGs because they enjoy RPGs, a glorified version of Baldur´s Gate with a persistent world and group gameplay is what a lot of RPG fans want.
The RPG feeling of adventure with your friends in a persistent world ... a MMO RPG
The deathmatch e-peen concept seems great for a lot of people here, but the game market is showing RPG players and most players just dont want that.
The typical agressive PvP player is not a reliable community for any MMO developer, and we can see that in the recent releases.
Good PVE games like FFXI, Everquest2, original EQ, and even WoW are a clear proof that a well done and challenging PVE universe is not boring, people play these games for years, now lets see what happened with PvP games, even L2 is suffering in NA, the idea of a ultra e-peen PvP MMO wont hold nothing these days, for this kind of fast and agressive experience FPS and Multiplayer games are having a much better performance.
Please bring us a really good and massive Baldur's Gate experience and NOT a glorified death match MMO"rpg".
The implementation of PvP in has been creatively ugly. It really reached its nadir, though developers thought it was its zenith, when PvP became THE focus of the MMORPG.
PvP should be a feature, but it should be a feature implemented in terms of immersion, customization, and lore
Political assassinations;
Bounty hunts;
Duels;
Perhaps raiding merchant ships;
Perhaps castle sieges.
PVP SHOULD NOT BE
THE focus of an MMORPG;
Randomly going up to people and "killing" them; or
Some sort of instanced area with a predictable, linear PvP path
Maybe that explains why people enjoyed Dark Age of Camelot, and why people disliked the expansion which shoved down PvE content into the subscriber's throats, making them quit. People had faith in Mythic when it came to delivering more RvR in WAR, but they were disappointed because of many PvE (or RvE as some would like to say) elements in it.
PvP got potential to keep players subscribed for a long time, if well done with interesting mechanics/deep gameplay, if instant gratification is not the reason for PvP, but rather long term benefits. I find MMORPGs to have a huge potential for interesting competitive mechanics, with more depth than any multiplayer FPS can offer. Games with this focus are less popular, it's true, but I can't remember of a good PvP centric MMORPG released in the recent years.
I'm not saying PvE is useless, either, far from it. Smart developers can find a way to balance things even if competitive play is the priority.
Originally posted by declaredemer The implementation of PvP in has been creatively ugly. It really reached its nadir, though developers thought it was its zenith, when PvP became THE focus of the MMORPG.
PvP should be a feature, but it should be a feature implemented in terms of immersion, customization, and lore
PvP has only had a negative effect on MMO's. Let's hope Darkfall succeeds at being the ass-magnet game it wants to be. littlemonkey
The implementation of PvP in has been creatively ugly. It really reached its nadir, though developers thought it was its zenith, when PvP became THE focus of the MMORPG.
PvP should be a feature, but it should be a feature implemented in terms of immersion, customization, and lore
Political assassinations;
Bounty hunts;
Duels;
Perhaps raiding merchant ships;
Perhaps castle sieges.
PVP SHOULD NOT BE
THE focus of an MMORPG;
Randomly going up to people and "killing" them; or
Some sort of instanced area with a predictable, linear PvP path
+1
And people need to stop thinking that PvP in an MMO is a way to PwN n00bs until they make the game play EXACTLY like FPS multiplayers....anything static or repetitive without requiring strategy and good coordination......fails
Because arena requires no strategy or cordination in WoW its just mindless repetitive material. PvE on the other hand that requires strategy, for one you have to research the boss and once you do that you have to apply the same strategy every 300 times you kill him! BRILLIANT!
you...are braindead...srysly
Did you read AND understand what I said?
I think not....
Join me in Cod, CS, BF2, or any other FPS online multi player game.....and I'll learn you....thanx
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Comments
I think they will because Wintergrasp was a huge success. They found the world pvp formula here and im sure it will be applied many more times, only to be enhanced each time.
The first sentence speaks volumes about pvp mentality and why pvp communities have a well deserved bad rep.
The problem is not fully the pvp community. I remember playing games like MOHAA and Quake3 and the end result of a lose was "good game, I really enjoyed that". Now its "YOU GOT OWNED BITCH". But not every PvPer follows this. I love pvp, with every win or lose I end it with good game. The problem is not the community alone, but the moderators who let it go this far. In WoW you can destroy somebody and turn around and completly taunt them about there lose, the most that will be done is a slap on the wrist warning (if that) and they will be right back to offend another. And you can devote a small % of the problem to punk kids whose parents didnt see rated T for teen for there 11 year old kid.
You can't communicate with the opposite faction in WoW. You can do a few emotes but most of them will come out as "heartless did a strange gesture" to the other player. The worst you can do is /spit.
From my experience, personal insults get punished fairly quickly in WoW. People get suspended or banned. Stop blaming everything on WoW. What's next, you're going to blame WoW for global warming?
Douche bags have been around the internet long before WoW. I remember dealing with "lol pwnt" and "ez noob" in UO. As more and more people gain access to the internet, you see more of these types of gamers. The problem is that the PvP community as a whole attracts the angsty teen who needs to take his frustrations, caused by low self-esteem, on other people. With computers becoming a household appliance, more and more people can take out their anger on others without fear or reprisal.
Lol, you really took this to heart. Did you know on a pve server you can have both alliance and horde on the same server? So you could easily create a alt just to let the enemy know how much you hate them. Anyways I was refering to duels. I play WoW im blaming nothing on it. Im just using it as a refrence considering I play it. I could say it was in SWG but I dont play that anymore. Nice way to jump to conclusions. Really I would rather be refered to as a angsty teen if thats what It takes to enjoy PvP. PvP proves a lot then bot healing the main tank or using the same 4 skills in a row to keep up with rotation. So if im a Angsty teen, then what are you a mindless drone? Oh and "from my experience" what I said before still applys. I'll take my low self-esteem self back to battlegrounds, when you work up the courage to step your foot inside a pvp zone, let me know. You might enjoy it if you relax.
Edit: I just looked under you picture and see the words "pwnt" are you one of the douche bags thats been around the internet?
Just find it funny how every fault of this genre somehow gets attributed to WoW.
When I played WoW it was exclusively on a PvP server and I only raided a few times in MC and BWL before BC. Since I don't play WoW anymore, I don't think I'll be able to work my courage up to step inside a PvP zone, so, regretfully, I will not be letting you know.
My douche bag comment must've struck a nerve. I appologize, I didn't mean that you were a douche bag or an angsty teen, I meant that those are the types of people this play style tends to attract. If you don't consider yourself one of them, why get some defensive? People are so strange sometimes.
Anyway, have fun on your PvE server.
lol I will do my best to have fun on my PvE server. I have more fun on my PvP as I said in a earlier post. Did you even read your own post? According to anybody that does PvP is a angst teen. I said "I love pvp" so your insisting im a angst teen, do I need to go any futher? I never said you called me a douche, not once. I just found it funny how your icon signature says "pwnt" and you insult those who say it. Yes you are right, people are so strange sometimes.
Reading comprehension. You should look into it.
I'm saying that the the PvP play style attracts angsty teens. I didn't say that all PvPers are angsty teens.
Let me make an analogy for you. Cake attracts fat people, but not all people who eat cake are fat. Better?
Word usage, you should look into it
you saying that the PvP play style atracks angsty teens is the same thing as saying PvPers are angsty teens. Quoting you "the problem is that the PvP community as a whole attracts the angsty teen". You never said partial. Thanks your anology does not apply here. Now you say play style before it was community, lol what next global warming? you see what i did there?
Wow is a successful PvE based subscription game. Maybe it was drawn up that way with some pvp in mind on certain servers, but most people play it as a PvE game, not on the open contested pvp servers. That shows what 12 million people think of PvP.
Saying "every game has bugs" isn't news to anyone, nor is it an excuse for Vanguard. Vanguard's bugs had bugs. Chunklline freezing, questing bugs, mob bugs, character bugs, city bugs... I don't know how you gloss over all of these. If you were truly in beta, they were worse than release. Look how many people preorder and actually BOUGHT Vanguard waiting for the PvE (and you know it was that, because they had no mechanic IN PLACE for PvP, remember?). Mostly a lot of the "old school" gamers who played original EQ1 who wanted.. wait for it... crafting and storylines. Not killing each other on a hamster wheel. And yes, even if you did a poll today, those who actually waited and played Vanguard would tell you if the game was implemented WITHOUT all those crazy bugs, they'd still be playing it. The bugs, the crafting and the unfinished things like Diplomacy ruined it for most. You should know this, not sure why a beta person wouldn't.
"The basis of WoW's success come from RvR pvp settings, both PvE servers and PvP servers have PvP." This part is just so untrue, looks like something Rush Limbaugh could have invented. Wow's success is owed to pvp. Hmm. Strange indeed.
To survive in the MMO world, that means: Paying off your creditors and keeping your game running. You do not have to be constantly expanding your base once your game is paid for. Once you recoup your outlay and your game is running, you have a skeleton crew and you crank out content from time to time. That is surviving. What is your definition? Hand to mouth like AoC or Warhammer? If you would like to focus on "survive" as the verb, so be it.
But know that just about any heavy PvE game is doing ok today; they aren't folding up or doing bad even in this economy. They are making money for their companies. That's surviving. Everyone cannot be WoW, friend. Other companies are content with the numbers they are getting and HAVE gotten in the past. Sorry if their idea of success or "surviving" doesn't mesh with what you think a game should do.
And in which fantasyland does this game exist? If you say Wow, you'll probably be slapped for repeating that, as WoW is a HEAVY PvE game, and always was. Just curious, but are there more PvP areas/scenarios in WoW, or more PvE dungeons? Warsong, Arathi, Alterac, Eye o.t. Storm. And now Strand of the Ancients vs HOW many PvE dungeons? Hellfire Peninsula, Zangarmarsh, Terokkar Forest, and Nagrand I didn't add their pvp, because NO one wastes their time with this nonsense. Do you think when they add something next expansion, they will they add more pvp scenarios, or more dungeons? Are there more PvP servers OR more PvE servers?
There's your answer. That's what kind of game it is, regardless of the draw up.
WoW as an equally pvp focused game is proven by a couple simple facts you cant seem to accept. Fact: races and clases are balanced against eachother. If PvP was not of equal or greater value to the games design, class and race balance wouldnt mean much, but its a heavy focus with WoW. Fact: There are more contested areas of the game than there are green safe zones. Know what this means? Yes the world becomes a pvp zone. The game is focused on pvp the moment you enter a contested zone, which means the opposite side can attack you and vice versa without being flagged for pvp.
Im sorry but at this point you are just talking to hear yourself talk. PvP is a part of every facet of WoW's design, even on pve servers. To be honest, you really cannot argue this, and i have a feeling that if you do you are more obsessed with your own argument and stance than you are with the truth.
Smart games make use of PvE as a tool for character progression, as a means to fill up the world with non player characters to give off the illusion of it being alive, and as a form of time sinks to keep the player interested as well as practice. Its not necessary, which you seem to think, but it sure as hell is easier.
"To survive in the MMO world, that means: Paying off your creditors and keeping your game running. You do not have to be constantly expanding your base once your game is paid for. Once you recoup your outlay and your game is running, you have a skeleton crew and you crank out content from time to time. That is surviving. What is your definition? Hand to mouth like AoC or Warhammer? If you would like to focus on "survive" as the verb, so be it. "
Im curious as to where you are getting your definitions, do you have a magical dictionary? I have a feeling you are just pulling this out of your own perception rather than any factual information know as a concrete truth. You miss the point as well, you keep trying compare survival with success. Survival is if your company didnt go bankrupt champ.
Success is when your investment pays off, your company flourishes, you get enough money to support your next venture without fear and you have a great franchise on your hands. This is success. In the game industry, if all you do is barely survive, you wont find many jobs or places with open arms welcoming you.
What investors want to see in a mmorpg is a gain, always a gain in subscription numbers. You have a projected profit goal that you set for yourself. I garantee you that the profit goals is always much higher than just barely paying the bills.
Essentially as another poster said, you seem to have an agenda here, which is anti-pvp. That fact shows that you are not qualified to be taken seriously as someone who knows the industry and is familiar with game design, in this regard, with mmorpgs.
Pvp and Pve are not banners you rally under, its not like democrat and republican. Its not picking one or the other. Only fools look at it that way.
PvP and PvE are tools, they are rule sets and limitations that make up the challenges faced a game. For any game designer, the first step towards understanding game design theory, is to undersand what exactly a game is. A challenge created by limitations given by a ruleset. Do you understand?
To a computer and to a game designer, pvp and pve are the same thing, objects with values, the difference is in the input, one from the code (AI) and the other influenced by another player.
I think its partially human nature this day and age to be stupid, trying to turn everything into a banner in which to rally under. Its stupid to think along those lines, pvp and pve are not sides you have to pick and fight for. They are just two and one (since they are really similar) features in a successful online games code.
I dont think you understand this!
Nice Raben, I agree 100%.
Realm pride and RVR of DAOC and PVE and Raiding of WoW can't exisist in the same game?Warhammer and Wow have learned the lesson you players prefer the easiness of the battlegrounds and will stop fighting in the real world if the rewards in the battle grounds are too good.If Wow didn't have arenas and bg they would have decent RVR and if they reward RvR like they do arenas and BG they would have great RVR.
Doesnt RvR mean Realm versus Realm? If so im pretty sure RvR is possible in wow only because of BG and arena. So what the hell are you going on about. WoW has a huge world. World pvp is still in action. BG and Arena is just to jump strait into it without having to go look for it. Wintergrasp has rewards does it not?
Doesnt RvR mean Realm versus Realm? If so im pretty sure RvR is possible in wow only because of BG and arena. So what the hell are you going on about. WoW has a huge world. World pvp is still in action. BG and Arena is just to jump strait into it without having to go look for it. Wintergrasp has rewards does it not?
Wow has factions why isn't the combat in Wow as good Daoc.Wintergrasp is wow first real attempt RvR battles.I have no probelm with Bg and arenas except the real world combat should be reward more than mini games.My point was if the devs had made different choices they could both awesome pvp of daoc with out hurting pve in the game.
I cant comment on DAoC because I have never tried it. I cant really argue against this now that I understand what your saying. World PvP is more fun, because its unexpected and shows dominance over a territory which is harder then being thrown into a small sandbox always on alert. I agree with this. So I get what your on about now
Oh no argument/disagreement here, heheh.
I was just sharing my personal take on it... Providing another angle, so to speak
.
Although I don't think it's so much "a story" in WoW, but more various smaller story arcs, which is why I refer to them like short stories.
One that comes to mind is the story arc of Tirion out in E. Plaguelands. At first he's just some random guy outside a small shack. You go through a questline with him where he reveals his identity and tells you of what's happened to him and his son... Later in the game, (WoTLK, in fact), he makes a quite impressive return. His is an interesting story, that made me want to get through the quests to see where it would go next.
But I can see how people might not be able to get into the stories in a game, since there's so much else going on around it.
Not trying to prop myself up as anyone special, but I think there are fewer people like me than not; at least based on the impatience of some people when I'm questing with them and they want me to just skip the dialog so they can hurry and finish it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I've always held the opinion that PvP in a class-based MMO is inherently never going to be fair.
There'll always be whines along the lines of "why can't I as a <insert class> beat a <insert class>?" to which the MMO development company inevitably trots out the party line: "PvP isn't balanced 1v1" as though that absolves the of any responsibility to even try.
It's one of the things that I truly dislike about WoW; one gets the distinct impression that the developers are expending massive amounts of both time and energy purely on "class balance" to the detriment of the games advancement in areas such as crafting, player-housing and other "fluff" elements.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
PvP is the only thing that has kept SWG alive.
The Official God FAQ
Oh no argument/disagreement here, heheh.
I was just sharing my personal take on it... Providing another angle, so to speak
.
Although I don't think it's so much "a story" in WoW, but more various smaller story arcs, which is why I refer to them like short stories.
One that comes to mind is the story arc of Tirion out in E. Plaguelands. At first he's just some random guy outside a small shack. You go through a questline with him where he reveals his identity and tells you of what's happened to him and his son... Later in the game, (WoTLK, in fact), he makes a quite impressive return. His is an interesting story, that made me want to get through the quests to see where it would go next.
But I can see how people might not be able to get into the stories in a game, since there's so much else going on around it.
Not trying to prop myself up as anyone special, but I think there are fewer people like me than not; at least based on the impatience of some people when I'm questing with them and they want me to just skip the dialog so they can hurry and finish it.
When I first started playing mmos years ago back in the days of EQ1 I used to pay attention to the storylines written into the games. I liked feeling immersed in the game world. Later as more mmos came out I would read up on the background lore and think of how my character would fit into the game world. Now I no longer bother with any of this. Why? Well its for a number of reasons actually.
Firstly I have grown up and learned to face the fact that the story has got nothing to do with how I play the game. The devs might have spent ages writing up some epic storyline to go with the quests but following the story doesnt help me to make any decisions in the gameworld........and thats because I CANT make any decisions (which brings me to my next point).
All I can do in these mmos is do the quests, go up levels and progress through the map. I dont get to make any decisions in the game. Its either do the quests laid out for me and progress or dont do the quests and dont progress. The story that goes along with the quests is just fluff. Even if it was all removed from the game it wouldnt really effect how I play the game. Losing the story and the npc dialogue (one sided dialogue mind you because I cant truly interact with an npc) doesnt hinder me in any way. Knowing that Lord Varkon is secretly the son of Queen Wibblyslippers doesnt help me kill 10 boars. If I was able to actually make decisions in the game related to the story by choosing quests which influenced the outcome of the story then I might pay more attention to it but as I am a mere bystander in a story which I cant actually take part in then it rarely grabs me.
Thirdly the story writing in mmos isnt even vaguely comparable to a good book or a film. I think its piss poor to be honest and nearly always extremely childish. I cant think of any mmo which has impressed me in this regard. I see quite a bit of disgust on these forums aimed at people who just "rush through the content" without bothering to read it all. The impression is given that these people are impatient and lack appreciation for the story. I could be classed as one of these people but I like to take my time in an mmo and appreciate the gameworld I am in. I focus on the gameworld but I pay the bare minimum of attention to the storyline not because I dont appreciate a good story but because of the complete opposite. I find the stories presented in these mmo to be insulting to my intelligence. There is better writing skill on the kids cartoon network.
If these mmos were well written then I might pay more attention to what they have to say. Instead I get my immersion from using my own imagination and relying on the audio and visual experience and the gameplay. Afterall thats what playing computer games is really about. If a game has its players clicking through pages of text telling them stories then its not doing a very good job of being a game in my opinion.....especially if the conclusion of all that reading boils down to the player walking to a location a few minutes away and clicking on an object and then returning. Effectively all they are doing then is being forced to go through the long winded equivalent of turning the page of a book......and I think games should be more than simple interactive online books.
Besides I think the players should be making their own stories with their own actions instead of having the game tell them what is happening. Let the players tell the computer what is happening instead. Let the players make the decisions and shape the game world. If I want to read a story I will read a good book or watch a film as it totally crushes anything offered by any mmo.
Heh, same reasons as me! I've played so many games over the decades that I'm not that interested in backstories to games any more. When you've seen more than a dozen, you've seen them all.
The PvP play style is what makes the PvP community. Therefore it is an essential part of that particular community.
As for my usage of the phrase "as a whole" if you read it carefully, it means that everything about the community attracts the angsty teen. Not that the whole community is made up of angsty teens.
Let me know if you're having trouble understanding something else, I'll gladly explain.
The implementation of PvP in has been creatively ugly. It really reached its nadir, though developers thought it was its zenith, when PvP became THE focus of the MMORPG.
PvP should be a feature, but it should be a feature implemented in terms of immersion, customization, and lore
PVP SHOULD NOT BE
The implementation of PvP in has been creatively ugly. It really reached its nadir, though developers thought it was its zenith, when PvP became THE focus of the MMORPG.
PvP should be a feature, but it should be a feature implemented in terms of immersion, customization, and lore
PVP SHOULD NOT BE
+1
And people need to stop thinking that PvP in an MMO is a way to PwN n00bs until they make the game play EXACTLY like FPS multiplayers....anything static or repetitive without requiring strategy and good coordination......fails
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Still enjoying your Anti-pvp crusade are we?
"it means that everything about the community attracts the angsty teen. Not that the whole community is made up of angsty teens."
Okay so if the community attracts the angsty teen then the community has to be relative to their intrest, basic human nature is to go where you fit in. You will never see a antilop approach a cheetah with a smile. You keep typing but never do any explaining. Why does the community attract angsty teens? Gladly explain.
The implementation of PvP in has been creatively ugly. It really reached its nadir, though developers thought it was its zenith, when PvP became THE focus of the MMORPG.
PvP should be a feature, but it should be a feature implemented in terms of immersion, customization, and lore
PVP SHOULD NOT BE
+1
And people need to stop thinking that PvP in an MMO is a way to PwN n00bs until they make the game play EXACTLY like FPS multiplayers....anything static or repetitive without requiring strategy and good coordination......fails
Because arena requires no strategy or cordination in WoW its just mindless repetitive material. PvE on the other hand that requires strategy, for one you have to research the boss and once you do that you have to apply the same strategy every 300 times you kill him! BRILLIANT!
Them that can do, them that can't like to tell you how much is sucks
Don't like pvp/suck at pvp? It's ok you can go play Donkey Kong or whatever, we won't tell anyone honest.
I tired being logical last post, now I get it we just arguing
Yes people play mmoRPGs because they enjoy RPGs, a glorified version of Baldur´s Gate with a persistent world and group gameplay is what a lot of RPG fans want.
The RPG feeling of adventure with your friends in a persistent world ... a MMO RPG
The deathmatch e-peen concept seems great for a lot of people here, but the game market is showing RPG players and most players just dont want that.
The typical agressive PvP player is not a reliable community for any MMO developer, and we can see that in the recent releases.
Good PVE games like FFXI, Everquest2, original EQ, and even WoW are a clear proof that a well done and challenging PVE universe is not boring, people play these games for years, now lets see what happened with PvP games, even L2 is suffering in NA, the idea of a ultra e-peen PvP MMO wont hold nothing these days, for this kind of fast and agressive experience FPS and Multiplayer games are having a much better performance.
Please bring us a really good and massive Baldur's Gate experience and NOT a glorified death match MMO"rpg".
...
This is a good example why most MMORPG and RPG consumers dont want to mix with the typical PvP crowd.
This kind of attitude even hurt most PvP games in the long run.
The implementation of PvP in has been creatively ugly. It really reached its nadir, though developers thought it was its zenith, when PvP became THE focus of the MMORPG.
PvP should be a feature, but it should be a feature implemented in terms of immersion, customization, and lore
PVP SHOULD NOT BE
Maybe that explains why people enjoyed Dark Age of Camelot, and why people disliked the expansion which shoved down PvE content into the subscriber's throats, making them quit. People had faith in Mythic when it came to delivering more RvR in WAR, but they were disappointed because of many PvE (or RvE as some would like to say) elements in it.
PvP got potential to keep players subscribed for a long time, if well done with interesting mechanics/deep gameplay, if instant gratification is not the reason for PvP, but rather long term benefits. I find MMORPGs to have a huge potential for interesting competitive mechanics, with more depth than any multiplayer FPS can offer. Games with this focus are less popular, it's true, but I can't remember of a good PvP centric MMORPG released in the recent years.
I'm not saying PvE is useless, either, far from it. Smart developers can find a way to balance things even if competitive play is the priority.
I agree with your concept.
Making the PvP in MMORPGs as a immersion, lore and non dependent feature would work
It really need to be the totally opposite of a FPS death match PvP.
PvP cant be and never was the focus of any kind of RPG game.
...
The implementation of PvP in has been creatively ugly. It really reached its nadir, though developers thought it was its zenith, when PvP became THE focus of the MMORPG.
PvP should be a feature, but it should be a feature implemented in terms of immersion, customization, and lore
PVP SHOULD NOT BE
+1
And people need to stop thinking that PvP in an MMO is a way to PwN n00bs until they make the game play EXACTLY like FPS multiplayers....anything static or repetitive without requiring strategy and good coordination......fails
Because arena requires no strategy or cordination in WoW its just mindless repetitive material. PvE on the other hand that requires strategy, for one you have to research the boss and once you do that you have to apply the same strategy every 300 times you kill him! BRILLIANT!
you...are braindead...srysly
Did you read AND understand what I said?
I think not....
Join me in Cod, CS, BF2, or any other FPS online multi player game.....and I'll learn you....thanx
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."