This is a perfect example of overly complicated mechanics and UI design. How many players already have these steps assigned to macro so that it could be accomplished in with a single keystroke, like it should be? ~Ripper
Based on what standards?
edit: Or should I say "based on whose standards?"
"Good people are good because they've come to wisdom through failure. We get very little wisdom from success, you know." William Saroyan
This is a perfect example of overly complicated mechanics and UI design. How many players already have these steps assigned to macro so that it could be accomplished in with a single keystroke, like it should be? ~Ripper
Based on what standards?
Based on standards for UI design. UI design, whether it's for web pages, applications, or games, is all about making the experience as intuitive and easy-to-use as possible. Why add extra "clicks" when one will accomplish the same thing? A UI shouldn't interfere with navigation through a website, by making it harder to use an application or by making gameplay more cumbersome. In a game, it's the actual game play that's most important, right? So why not simplify the UI in order to let players do what actually matters most, which is to actually play the game.
Here's a great post on the subject by another forum member:
Originally posted by WSIMike The interface in a game is "where the rubber meets the road" in terms of playing it. If the interface is clunky and unintuitive (saying "just get used to it" is a cop-out, not a solution) then that is a significant thing to complain about. A good interface is as transparent as possible and empowers the player. It gets "out of the way" so you can focus on playing the game. You shouldn't have to fuss over making sure the button you're pressing is doing what it's supposed to, with no easily identifiable way of knowing, beside reading text in a chat log. If they're having to look at the chat-log to make sure they have the right weapon equipped, then they're not looking at the fight in front of them. They're not fighting another player, or some pissed-off mob - they're fighting the game itself. That is not intuitive design.
And I'm not "making this up". There's tons of research that's been done on this topic, and many books and even college courses about it. Find a book or some articles on interface design and you'll see it all there. So, yes, if the interface is at all clunky and unintuitive, then it certainly should be revisited and improved. And finally, if people here seriously think the interface is "perfect" and AV got it right the first time... think of it this way... There are myriad software apps out there whose developers are continuously improving, streamlining and making their interfaces more intuitive. Lightwave 3D has gone through several changes, 3DSMax continuously has its interface improved... and so on. If those companies are still finding ways to improve the interfaces for their applications, then how do you seriously believe that an indie developer got it right the first time? And don't tell me "lol they're not games". It doesn't matter. An intuitive interface isn't limited to application software. It applies to *anything* that requires user interaction.... Games, programs, websites, kiosks... you name it.
Please note, I'm not advocating dumbing down the combat, nor am I advocating turning Darkfall into a "1-2-3" clickest like other MMOs. I think actual dodging, strafing, friendly fire and other mechanics make the combat really interesting. Personally, I'm very interested in trying Darkfall, but that doesn't mean that the game is perfect. It seems like it could be a very fun game, albeit with some design flaws. Hopefully, Aventurine will address some of the more glaring flaws and continue to improve on the game in new and interesting ways.
This is a perfect example of overly complicated mechanics and UI design. How many players already have these steps assigned to macro so that it could be accomplished in with a single keystroke, like it should be? ~Ripper
Based on what standards?
Based on standards for UI design. UI design, whether it's for web pages, applications, or games, is all about making the experience as intuitive and easy-to-use as possible. Why add extra "clicks" when one will accomplish the same thing? A UI shouldn't interfere with navigation through a website, by making it harder to use an application or by making gameplay more cumbersome. In a game, it's the actual game play that's most important, right? So why not simplify the UI in order to let players do what actually matters most, which is to actually play the game.
Here's a great post on the subject by another forum member:
Originally posted by WSIMike The interface in a game is "where the rubber meets the road" in terms of playing it. If the interface is clunky and unintuitive (saying "just get used to it" is a cop-out, not a solution) then that is a significant thing to complain about. A good interface is as transparent as possible and empowers the player. It gets "out of the way" so you can focus on playing the game. You shouldn't have to fuss over making sure the button you're pressing is doing what it's supposed to, with no easily identifiable way of knowing, beside reading text in a chat log. If they're having to look at the chat-log to make sure they have the right weapon equipped, then they're not looking at the fight in front of them. They're not fighting another player, or some pissed-off mob - they're fighting the game itself. That is not intuitive design.
And I'm not "making this up". There's tons of research that's been done on this topic, and many books and even college courses about it. Find a book or some articles on interface design and you'll see it all there. So, yes, if the interface is at all clunky and unintuitive, then it certainly should be revisited and improved. And finally, if people here seriously think the interface is "perfect" and AV got it right the first time... think of it this way... There are myriad software apps out there whose developers are continuously improving, streamlining and making their interfaces more intuitive. Lightwave 3D has gone through several changes, 3DSMax continuously has its interface improved... and so on. If those companies are still finding ways to improve the interfaces for their applications, then how do you seriously believe that an indie developer got it right the first time? And don't tell me "lol they're not games". It doesn't matter. An intuitive interface isn't limited to application software. It applies to *anything* that requires user interaction.... Games, programs, websites, kiosks... you name it.
~Ripper
That is a very good argument. However, there is a difference between interfaces for video games, and interfaces for software, websites, kiosks, etc.
And it's funny that you bring this up, I'm in a college course right now called Systems Analysis, where we have been covering User Interfaces implemented into various types of systems.
Video games are a niche market. Whereas a web site (like www.target.com) requires tons of money invested in localization, ease of use, accessibility, and the ever popular "one-click-you're-there."
This is not the same for video games. The actuallity of it is people are lazy, they want everything with one-click-of-a-button (and this laziness is making its way into videogames). Would I design my software to be complicated to the point where users must look up tutorials on the Internet or take college classes to learn how to use it? If my software was complex enough to require such extremes, then yes I would. Can someone download 3DS Max and start using it like a professional who has been trained in the use of 3DS Max? Very doubtful. I've been using Adobe Photoshop for 12 years (no formal training) and I still discover things that I've never noticed before. Are we saying software like Photoshop, Flash, Visual Studio, 3DS Max, all have such intuitive interfaces that no prior training or research is required to use it effectively?
Regardless of that, video games are different industry entirely. I agree that interfaces should be intuitive and easy to use understand. Is Darkfall's interface not intuitive and easy to understand? I believe it is both intuitive and easy to understand, once you get the hang of it.
Does WoW, or EVE, have such an intuitive interface that anyone can log on and become an expert in all that is WoW/EVE's mechanics and interface the moment they set eyes on it? No. They will likely get to a point (either right away, or later on down the road) where they will have to ask questions or look up information in order to understand the mechanics and interface.
Both points are moot, considering some gamers like complexity added to their game. While others like things to be point-and-click. It all depends on your opinion. You can read about opinion a few posts up...
"Good people are good because they've come to wisdom through failure. We get very little wisdom from success, you know." William Saroyan
Quick update of my game play tonight. Friend and I got bored of the one spawn of 4 goblins within a 10 minute run radius of town so we went looking for a fight.
I put on my red tennis shoes and took off. While I was running I was thinking back to when I first met Bubba Gump, and Jenn-nay. After a true 30 minutes of running in Forest Gumps shoes we finally found the dog town... well a town with dog characters, dunno what they are really called.
In any case we found one lone dog, and started attacking. He ran, we gave chase firing at him with our bows. Soon, we were surrounded by a swarm of dogs and it was an epic battle. Our crafted armor made a huge difference, and we lasted for quite some time surrounded by dogmen.
The battle was a swarming blur of camera spinning, and swinging aimlessly to hit someone. Part of me likes the combat system, part of me thinks it's too hard to actually land hits other than luck, or if they run away.
We died, I respawned 30 minutes away and then decided to go watch numbers on TV.
Short version...combat was cool... running 30 minutes for it was not.
Quick update of my game play tonight. Friend and I got bored of the one spawn of 4 goblins within a 10 minute run radius of town so we went looking for a fight. I put on my red tennis shoes and took off. While I was running I was thinking back to when I first met Bubba Gump, and Jenn-nay. After a true 30 minutes of running in Forest Gumps shoes we finally found the dog town... well a town with dog characters, dunno what they are really called. In any case we found one lone dog, and started attacking. He ran, we gave chase firing at him with our bows. Soon, we were surrounded by a swarm of dogs and it was an epic battle. Our crafted armor made a huge difference, and we lasted for quite some time surrounded by dogmen. The battle was a swarming blur of camera spinning, and swinging aimlessly to hit someone. Part of me likes the combat system, part of me thinks it's too hard to actually land hits other than luck, or if they run away. We died, I respawned 30 minutes away and then decided to go watch numbers on TV. Short version...combat was cool... running 30 minutes for it was not.
You could bind to a closer stone prior to enter the fight ..if you like to be close to your racial enemy..
They called Mahirim ..(the "dogmen" are "wolfmen" really)..
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
are they going to give a refund or some free time? Why to pay for a game you can't play? I can understand when MMOs have server maintenance but this queue issue is ridiculous.
In reading about how to create a rest icon and how to communicate it all felt very "old school", early DAOC and Lineage 1 had a lot of command line interface stuff like this, and left it totally up to the player on what keybindings they wanted to have. So I can understand why people who never played the older games might find this interface daunting if all they know are the ones today all pretty much standardized around WOW. Contrast this with Runes of Magic, which copied the WOW interface so well I actually played it immediately with no learning curve. While that was a nice touch, it certainly isn't a determining factor on whether a game is bad or not. (I had to learn an entirely different interface when I played EVE)
One can argue that when purchasing a game, Iwant to play the actual game, not play the "rest" mini game. The whole point of fun is to maximize those things that are fun, and to minimize those that are mundane or routine. Executing a 3second procedure to rest may not seem a lot, but it is an inconveinence and it adds up.
Imagine you try to fuel up your car, but the fuel stattion is odd - you fuel up your tank at one place, but to pay for it you have to go across a busy street. At first its just an inconvenience, but later on it grows into annoyance.
The way this particular aspect of the game is designed is just stupid. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why it should have been designed that way. It seems that it was designed very quickly and then forgotten.
Reality check - people do things for excitement and challenges. You could either go climb that small rock behind your house, or you could go climb everest. You can either go to the swimming hall and dive down and swim around at the bottom, or you could go diving in the big blue with sharks and what not.
WoW would be the first of these choices, Darkfall the latter.
I'll be sure to add Darkfall as one of my life-long achievements and accomplishments, the game is really hard and deserves to be right up there with climbing Mount Everest.
Don't compare virtual games to real life. Honestly.
I'm not saying you should, but the principle is the same. Some people play games that are more channelnging and excitement because thats what they want.
I find DF to be more inconvenient then challenging. Resting is inconvenient, not challenging. Loot stealing makes the game annoying, not challenging.
The only theoretical challenging part would be when fighting 1 on 1 with an equal, or when guild fights another guild with more or less equal forces. However, in order to have that equality, it HAS to be enforced. DF does not enforce things, thus promotes unequal competition, which is not challenging at all.
The challenge that you talk about is extremely rare in an uncontrolled FFA PvP world.
ROFL, I love watching the uneducated crap brain fanbois try and argue for this game. Nothing gives me a better laugh. Raw stupidity at it's finest. There are awesome people in life, and non-awesome people. Just because you non-awesome people like this game doesn't make the game awesome. In fact, the game is steaming pile of sh*t. We've told you why. You refuse to accept it. Instead, you come back with baseless claims of why this game is l33t. Big battles? Open PvP? Sandbox? Ships? Objective-based PvP? It's all been done before. Not only that, but the way it's done in this game is completely half-as$ed. The draw to this game isn't centered around there existing a strategic core, or high-end open world experience. It's about being able to be a little turd and dupe/cheat/scam/grief some other player out of something they value. YEAH MAN, good reason to play a game. I really want to play with a bunch of f'in retards who play a game like this. You completely lack the skill to win a real FPS objective-based game, so you come play in your little fantasy world where you have the opportunity to lie and cheat your way to success. Something tells me you treat real life the same way. Going to cry? I'm sure you'll lie about that as well. F'in losers. Learn your place in the world. STFU.
Did that guy really just say all that? Was he serious? I assume he was not being serious considering how absolutely insane his statements were. Maybe that makes me non-awesome? lol....
Yep, he pretty much summed up the DF fanbois fairly well. I'm fairly certain the fans of DF know deep down inside themselves that DF is a piece of shit game. They just refuse to take their heads out of the sand. And anyone who actually loves the game needs to step away from their keyboard and reflect a bit. Or maybe just get out in the world some.
You know, I dont play DF... but it is straight up pathetic that so many people spend their time trying to talk them out of enjoying a game that they are having fun playing.
Why do you guys even care that they are having fun? Do you get kicks out of attempting to ruin it for them? Do you think telling them that their just blind fanboys is going to talk them out of it? Does it make you feel better about yourself or something?
Very ironic that so many seem proud of themselves by calling others "Fanbois" as if they are making the "Fanbois" look bad, when in reality they are just making themselves look like pathetic people who get kicks out of trying to ruin enjoyment for others...
Maybe if you guys were not so miserable that you cant find something that brings yourselves enjoyment, you wouldnt be on here trying to make others feel as miserable as you...
Thats the other (bad) side of the public forum - people can post anything they want, even if they are complete retards and their posts are mindless rumblings of someone from instane asylum. You just have to learn to ignore empty posts and concentrate on constructive arguments. Xaa and the likes of him are not worthy a reply or any attention.
Thanks for not taking the time to shut your sewer pipes of hate and tell me how to sit down. And although I don't play WoW (played for a month when it first came out), it has good graphics, looks clean, has easy loot and combat, etc... there is a reason this game has 1 server and WoW has 100....
Darkfall is hard and harsh, WoW is clean and easy.
Darkfall has freedom. WoW is a themepark that has no point.
Take your pick.
Reality Check - they're both games. Neither are "hard" or "harsh". You play both for fun and relaxation. That's pretty much the point of both games.
Reality check - people do things for excitement and challenges. You could either go climb that small rock behind your house, or you could go climb everest. You can either go to the swimming hall and dive down and swim around at the bottom, or you could go diving in the big blue with sharks and what not.
WoW would be the first of these choices, Darkfall the latter.
And everytime a shark eats a player someone get kicked from the game and has to start queing again, hahaha!
Comments
Based on what standards?
edit: Or should I say "based on whose standards?"
"Good people are good because they've come to wisdom through failure. We get very little wisdom from success, you know." William Saroyan
Based on what standards?
Based on standards for UI design. UI design, whether it's for web pages, applications, or games, is all about making the experience as intuitive and easy-to-use as possible. Why add extra "clicks" when one will accomplish the same thing? A UI shouldn't interfere with navigation through a website, by making it harder to use an application or by making gameplay more cumbersome. In a game, it's the actual game play that's most important, right? So why not simplify the UI in order to let players do what actually matters most, which is to actually play the game.
Here's a great post on the subject by another forum member:
Please note, I'm not advocating dumbing down the combat, nor am I advocating turning Darkfall into a "1-2-3" clickest like other MMOs. I think actual dodging, strafing, friendly fire and other mechanics make the combat really interesting. Personally, I'm very interested in trying Darkfall, but that doesn't mean that the game is perfect. It seems like it could be a very fun game, albeit with some design flaws. Hopefully, Aventurine will address some of the more glaring flaws and continue to improve on the game in new and interesting ways.
~Ripper
Based on what standards?
Based on standards for UI design. UI design, whether it's for web pages, applications, or games, is all about making the experience as intuitive and easy-to-use as possible. Why add extra "clicks" when one will accomplish the same thing? A UI shouldn't interfere with navigation through a website, by making it harder to use an application or by making gameplay more cumbersome. In a game, it's the actual game play that's most important, right? So why not simplify the UI in order to let players do what actually matters most, which is to actually play the game.
Here's a great post on the subject by another forum member:
~Ripper
That is a very good argument. However, there is a difference between interfaces for video games, and interfaces for software, websites, kiosks, etc.
And it's funny that you bring this up, I'm in a college course right now called Systems Analysis, where we have been covering User Interfaces implemented into various types of systems.
Video games are a niche market. Whereas a web site (like www.target.com) requires tons of money invested in localization, ease of use, accessibility, and the ever popular "one-click-you're-there."
This is not the same for video games. The actuallity of it is people are lazy, they want everything with one-click-of-a-button (and this laziness is making its way into videogames). Would I design my software to be complicated to the point where users must look up tutorials on the Internet or take college classes to learn how to use it? If my software was complex enough to require such extremes, then yes I would. Can someone download 3DS Max and start using it like a professional who has been trained in the use of 3DS Max? Very doubtful. I've been using Adobe Photoshop for 12 years (no formal training) and I still discover things that I've never noticed before. Are we saying software like Photoshop, Flash, Visual Studio, 3DS Max, all have such intuitive interfaces that no prior training or research is required to use it effectively?
Regardless of that, video games are different industry entirely. I agree that interfaces should be intuitive and easy to use understand. Is Darkfall's interface not intuitive and easy to understand? I believe it is both intuitive and easy to understand, once you get the hang of it.
Does WoW, or EVE, have such an intuitive interface that anyone can log on and become an expert in all that is WoW/EVE's mechanics and interface the moment they set eyes on it? No. They will likely get to a point (either right away, or later on down the road) where they will have to ask questions or look up information in order to understand the mechanics and interface.
Both points are moot, considering some gamers like complexity added to their game. While others like things to be point-and-click. It all depends on your opinion. You can read about opinion a few posts up...
"Good people are good because they've come to wisdom through failure. We get very little wisdom from success, you know." William Saroyan
Quick update of my game play tonight. Friend and I got bored of the one spawn of 4 goblins within a 10 minute run radius of town so we went looking for a fight.
I put on my red tennis shoes and took off. While I was running I was thinking back to when I first met Bubba Gump, and Jenn-nay. After a true 30 minutes of running in Forest Gumps shoes we finally found the dog town... well a town with dog characters, dunno what they are really called.
In any case we found one lone dog, and started attacking. He ran, we gave chase firing at him with our bows. Soon, we were surrounded by a swarm of dogs and it was an epic battle. Our crafted armor made a huge difference, and we lasted for quite some time surrounded by dogmen.
The battle was a swarming blur of camera spinning, and swinging aimlessly to hit someone. Part of me likes the combat system, part of me thinks it's too hard to actually land hits other than luck, or if they run away.
We died, I respawned 30 minutes away and then decided to go watch numbers on TV.
Short version...combat was cool... running 30 minutes for it was not.
You could bind to a closer stone prior to enter the fight ..if you like to be close to your racial enemy..
They called Mahirim ..(the "dogmen" are "wolfmen" really)..
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
He would have played 2 hours 20 minutes if he didn't have to stare at a queue screen so long...
Pay to queue, a new MMORPG concept.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Oh yes, 10k users... with 2 to 3 hour long queues.
Impressive indeed.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
are they going to give a refund or some free time? Why to pay for a game you can't play? I can understand when MMOs have server maintenance but this queue issue is ridiculous.
"DarkFall can hold 10k concurrent users..what some popular new games can't."
Right now I have been queued for 4 hours and even when I get in it will be a laggy mess.
{ Mod Edit }
I have an idea. Whoever doesn't have a bachelors degree or higher here, STFU. You are a nobody. You get no opinion because your opinion is worthless.
One can argue that when purchasing a game, Iwant to play the actual game, not play the "rest" mini game. The whole point of fun is to maximize those things that are fun, and to minimize those that are mundane or routine. Executing a 3second procedure to rest may not seem a lot, but it is an inconveinence and it adds up.
Imagine you try to fuel up your car, but the fuel stattion is odd - you fuel up your tank at one place, but to pay for it you have to go across a busy street. At first its just an inconvenience, but later on it grows into annoyance.
The way this particular aspect of the game is designed is just stupid. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why it should have been designed that way. It seems that it was designed very quickly and then forgotten.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I'll be sure to add Darkfall as one of my life-long achievements and accomplishments, the game is really hard and deserves to be right up there with climbing Mount Everest.
Don't compare virtual games to real life. Honestly.
I'm not saying you should, but the principle is the same. Some people play games that are more channelnging and excitement because thats what they want.
I find DF to be more inconvenient then challenging. Resting is inconvenient, not challenging. Loot stealing makes the game annoying, not challenging.
The only theoretical challenging part would be when fighting 1 on 1 with an equal, or when guild fights another guild with more or less equal forces. However, in order to have that equality, it HAS to be enforced. DF does not enforce things, thus promotes unequal competition, which is not challenging at all.
The challenge that you talk about is extremely rare in an uncontrolled FFA PvP world.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Did that guy really just say all that? Was he serious? I assume he was not being serious considering how absolutely insane his statements were. Maybe that makes me non-awesome? lol....
Yep, he pretty much summed up the DF fanbois fairly well. I'm fairly certain the fans of DF know deep down inside themselves that DF is a piece of shit game. They just refuse to take their heads out of the sand. And anyone who actually loves the game needs to step away from their keyboard and reflect a bit. Or maybe just get out in the world some.
You know, I dont play DF... but it is straight up pathetic that so many people spend their time trying to talk them out of enjoying a game that they are having fun playing.
Why do you guys even care that they are having fun? Do you get kicks out of attempting to ruin it for them? Do you think telling them that their just blind fanboys is going to talk them out of it? Does it make you feel better about yourself or something?
Very ironic that so many seem proud of themselves by calling others "Fanbois" as if they are making the "Fanbois" look bad, when in reality they are just making themselves look like pathetic people who get kicks out of trying to ruin enjoyment for others...
Maybe if you guys were not so miserable that you cant find something that brings yourselves enjoyment, you wouldnt be on here trying to make others feel as miserable as you...
Thats the other (bad) side of the public forum - people can post anything they want, even if they are complete retards and their posts are mindless rumblings of someone from instane asylum. You just have to learn to ignore empty posts and concentrate on constructive arguments. Xaa and the likes of him are not worthy a reply or any attention.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Darkfall is hard and harsh, WoW is clean and easy.
Darkfall has freedom. WoW is a themepark that has no point.
Take your pick.
Reality Check - they're both games. Neither are "hard" or "harsh". You play both for fun and relaxation. That's pretty much the point of both games.
Reality check - people do things for excitement and challenges. You could either go climb that small rock behind your house, or you could go climb everest. You can either go to the swimming hall and dive down and swim around at the bottom, or you could go diving in the big blue with sharks and what not.
WoW would be the first of these choices, Darkfall the latter.
And everytime a shark eats a player someone get kicked from the game and has to start queing again, hahaha!