A typical snippet of his conversation: "**slurggh slurgg slurgg munch munch munch cough cough** Man I don't know what the f*ck these f*cking carebears want out of this game man **wheeeze**, if you can't f*cking see how great of a game this is from the first f*cking second you log in then you're just a f*cking carebear and you should either kill yourself or go f*ck yourself. *munch munch wheeze* I swear to god these f*cking noooooobs think they can come in here and start thinking they're the sh*t and swinging their sword around man but I f*cking just laugh man, these f*cking nooooobs weren't around in You Oh man we had sh*t going on like this from day f*cking one. *snort snort cough gasp* Now you see me in here and this is what it's all about man, look I got this sword and this is like a twitch game you know I'm not gonna have pity on you if I see you in here crying about getting your sack chopped off or...hold on I gotta fight this noooooob, yeah, see this is why I LOVE THIS GAME man, now I can just have no pity and kill this f*cking nooooob man (spins his character around to see if anyone is around then loots the headstone, clicking frantically on each item like he was a grandma at a Yarn Barn clearance sale) ok what was I saying, oh yeah this f*cking WoW kiddies come in here and think they can step one foot out of the town and then we send them back crying to thier moms, sucking their t*ts talking about "Mom, these mean Darkfall guys killed me then looted me mom...waaaaaahhh" That'll f*cking teach you noooobs go back to wow you carebear kids nobody wants you here, NOBODY *snurgle gorgle gorlgle cough cough*"
Hey, I think I saw that video... not even joking lol.
... or at least one very similar.
My image of those people - including the ones who pull that kinda crap on forums - is that they have a mirror right near their desk somewhere.. Arcing across the top of the mirror is something like "#1 Bad Ass", or "I PWN N00BS"
Every time they "gank" someone (usually far weaker than them), call someone a "n00b", or a "WoW carebear" or whatever.. They turn to the mirror and flex, marvelling at how e-tough they are.
That's just the image I have in my head when I read some posts, or watch some of these videos with their commentary.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I always try to give any sort of promising looking MMO a shot. No regrets there. But when people go out of their way just to be jerks when people are asking questions, it's just not fun.
when people go out of their way to whine about jerks, it's just not fun
This game has the absolute worst player community. Can't even ask a question in chat without someone calling you names.
you want the best community in an MMO today? go play LOTRO.
HhusskCity of Heroes CorrespondentMemberPosts: 219
Originally posted by grimal
This game has the absolute worst player community. Can't even ask a question in chat without someone calling you names.
The problem isn't the community. The problem is "Chat", which I'll explain.
First of all, it is ridiculous to lump "the community" into a catagorical generalization of people who are THE WORST. You are not even considering the people who are waiting in line and haven't even joined in yet. As well, I have doubts you've played enough MMOs to really know who THE WORST community would be.
But what makes up THE WORST community?
For one, broadcast chat enables THE WORST. If an open method of unregulated communication is created in the game, the beginning player as well as the gold-seller, as well as grief-player is rewarded with all out access. Broadcast chat was originally created as a means to help grouping. It has succeeded in its mission, but failed in general to help the community.
It would have been better for people to actually socialize.
In other words, if you're looking for a group, you should think about going to places where people need to hang out. Like a bar or tavern for thieves and bards, or a library for mages and scholars, or a church for priests. Or a guild hall for your guild mates.
Unfortunately, though, chat circumvents immersion. It literally gives you a way to AVOID real socializing. Now you don't have to travel to the market to sell your relic. You can just spam it on the broadcast channel.
So, when you talk about THE WORST community, please understand that this is the nature of chat. Darkfall's chat community is no better or worse than Age of Conan's, who is no better or worse than Eve Online's, who is no better or worse than World of Warcraft....well, World of Warcraft....
lol...chat, pure "you can talk magically across the world without magic" chat...by its nature, ruins immersion and circumvents adventure.
----------------------------- Blog -Transcendent''s Tomb - Reviews, Polls, and tortured opinions from the minions of MMORPGS
lol...chat, pure "you can talk magically across the world without magic" chat...by its nature, ruins immersion and circumvents adventure.
That is very true.
However, it also contributes positively to the game. The bad chat examples aside, something like a good clan chat will make the difference between feeling all alone in a multiplayer game and having the idea that you play together with many other people.
Today, a mmo game without also being a glorified chat room, is doomed to fail. Even if that would be more immersive.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Sober_Sean Just watch the youtube vids with voiceovers/running narration, or the live streams and you can actually listen to the type of people that play this game instead of just reading the words they type in chat.
People that never should speak in a public format, with either semi-mongoloid downs syndrome slurring of speech substituting the word "carebear" for most nouns and using profanity purely instead of adjectives. Just trying to listen to one of these slugs describe the most mundane of things is an exercise in self restraint, akin to seeing just how long you could stand reaching your hand into a trash can filled with dirty diapers on a dare before you yank it out in disgust. The kind of guy who sounds like he's choking on grape soda while eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, gasping for air with every breath and barely sputtering out his profanities because of the amount of neck fat constricting his larynx, the kind of guy who has to lean way back in his chair just to speak because of the pressure of the fat rolls choking out his vocal cords when he's hunched over his monitor with his ham-hock fists pounding away at the little greasy keys on his "gamer" keyboard. The kind of guy who says "noobs" but pronounces it "nooooooooobs" every single time, like the lowing of a herd of cattle at sunrise before they're milked.
A typical snippet of his conversation: "**slurggh slurgg slurgg munch munch munch cough cough** Man I don't know what the f*ck these f*cking carebears want out of this game man **wheeeze**, if you can't f*cking see how great of a game this is from the first f*cking second you log in then you're just a f*cking carebear and you should either kill yourself or go f*ck yourself. *munch munch wheeze* I swear to god these f*cking noooooobs think they can come in here and start thinking they're the sh*t and swinging their sword around man but I f*cking just laugh man, these f*cking nooooobs weren't around in You Oh man we had sh*t going on like this from day f*cking one. *snort snort cough gasp* Now you see me in here and this is what it's all about man, look I got this sword and this is like a twitch game you know I'm not gonna have pity on you if I see you in here crying about getting your sack chopped off or...hold on I gotta fight this noooooob, yeah, see this is why I LOVE THIS GAME man, now I can just have no pity and kill this f*cking nooooob man (spins his character around to see if anyone is around then loots the headstone, clicking frantically on each item like he was a grandma at a Yarn Barn clearance sale) ok what was I saying, oh yeah this f*cking WoW kiddies come in here and think they can step one foot out of the town and then we send them back crying to thier moms, sucking their t*ts talking about "Mom, these mean Darkfall guys killed me then looted me mom...waaaaaahhh" That'll f*cking teach you noooobs go back to wow you carebear kids nobody wants you here, NOBODY *snurgle gorgle gorlgle cough cough*"
Another type of person that seems to populate this game is the smarmy, know-it-all uber-geek who is in his mid 30's, yet whose voice has not yet cracked and insists on vocally enunciating internet acronyms such as saying "Loal" out loud when he could have just laughed, or remained silent. The kind of person who pronounces each letter out loud in ROFL, slowly...each time something out of the ordinary happens or he disagrees with something, that something being anything and everything said by anyone not himself about literally anything at all happening anywhere in the game. A typical snippet of his conversation: "Ar Oh Eff El dude no f*cking way, get the f*ck off that platform man I can hear fighting around the corner I swear I hear mana missle being cast, let's go f*cking kill that noob dude, haha yeah, let's go f*cking lewt that dewd...hey, hey ninja62 get your a** over here man Double You Tee Eff are you doing man? Didn't you nub cakes hear me tell you that I hear Mana Missiles over there? F*cking Loal at you noobs man!"
I mean, seriously play these vids with commentary on youtube and around the net for a minute, then put the voices to the words you see in chat, you'll see I'm not even exaggerating in the least bit.
Originally posted by Zayne3145 Amen to that. I'd rather be a carebear than a knuckle-scraping, mouth-breathing neanderthal like some of the DF community. "ME SMASH!!"
With all the time you have spent coming into the darkfall board to flame the posters it amazes me that you feel you can take the moral highground with any sense of honesty. Seems you are just as low as they are. Wear the medal with pride, son, you've earned it.
WoWers putting hits on Darkfallers... lol. Its like Saddam putting out a jihad on bin Ladin.
Maybe they will destroy eachother so the *true* civilized world can have a place to go to talk about games.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
This game has the absolute worst player community. Can't even ask a question in chat without someone calling you names.
The problem isn't the community. The problem is "Chat", which I'll explain.
First of all, it is ridiculous to lump "the community" into a catagorical generalization of people who are THE WORST. You are not even considering the people who are waiting in line and haven't even joined in yet. As well, I have doubts you've played enough MMOs to really know who THE WORST community would be.
But what makes up THE WORST community?
For one, broadcast chat enables THE WORST. If an open method of unregulated communication is created in the game, the beginning player as well as the gold-seller, as well as grief-player is rewarded with all out access. Broadcast chat was originally created as a means to help grouping. It has succeeded in its mission, but failed in general to help the community.
It would have been better for people to actually socialize.
In other words, if you're looking for a group, you should think about going to places where people need to hang out. Like a bar or tavern for thieves and bards, or a library for mages and scholars, or a church for priests. Or a guild hall for your guild mates.
Unfortunately, though, chat circumvents immersion. It literally gives you a way to AVOID real socializing. Now you don't have to travel to the market to sell your relic. You can just spam it on the broadcast channel.
So, when you talk about THE WORST community, please understand that this is the nature of chat. Darkfall's chat community is no better or worse than Age of Conan's, who is no better or worse than Eve Online's, who is no better or worse than World of Warcraft....well, World of Warcraft....
lol...chat, pure "you can talk magically across the world without magic" chat...by its nature, ruins immersion and circumvents adventure.
I take you haven't read the Forumfall. Darkfall is THE WORST community I have ever seen, by far. It's not the nature of chat (????) it's the nature of every sick individual that forms that community.
"The amount of asshats in the community always totally amazes me. I thought that maybe in game it wouldnt be as bad because people would want to protect their name ingame and not be known as complete idiots but I was wrong. The amount of people that run around acting like 12 year olds after a pack or 2 of wizz fizz is just amazing and reminds me that I am on the internet with people who just have no respect. The people in game are like the people on darkfalls forums. Complete douches. This was a major contributing factor to me leaving the game. The community is 10x worse than wows. (sorry to bring that game up)"
HhusskCity of Heroes CorrespondentMemberPosts: 219
Originally posted by TalRasha
Originally posted by Hhussk
lol...chat, pure "you can talk magically across the world without magic" chat...by its nature, ruins immersion and circumvents adventure.
That is very true.
However, it also contributes positively to the game. The bad chat examples aside, something like a good clan chat will make the difference between feeling all alone in a multiplayer game and having the idea that you play together with many other people.
Today, a mmo game without also being a glorified chat room, is doomed to fail. Even if that would be more immersive.
I also believe chat can contribute positvely to the game, but I feel it should be implimented in a unique way, and not just attributed to "Trade", "World", or "Zone" channel. For example, I played one game where people could purchase items that allowed them to listen and broadcast on a type of "universal mind link". When they didn't wear it, they received no thoughts from the link.
The one thing I believe we disagree on is whether an mmo game without a glorified chat would fail. Personally, I don't know of an MMO without one. If you do, I'd like to know the history of the game and its failure. Plus, even without worldwide chat, there are applications such as vent, AIM, and so forth that allow chat/talk outside the game.
----------------------------- Blog -Transcendent''s Tomb - Reviews, Polls, and tortured opinions from the minions of MMORPGS
HhusskCity of Heroes CorrespondentMemberPosts: 219
Originally posted by altairzq
Originally posted by Hhussk
Originally posted by grimal
This game has the absolute worst player community. Can't even ask a question in chat without someone calling you names.
The problem isn't the community. The problem is "Chat", which I'll explain.
First of all, it is ridiculous to lump "the community" into a catagorical generalization of people who are THE WORST. You are not even considering the people who are waiting in line and haven't even joined in yet. As well, I have doubts you've played enough MMOs to really know who THE WORST community would be.
But what makes up THE WORST community?
For one, broadcast chat enables THE WORST. If an open method of unregulated communication is created in the game, the beginning player as well as the gold-seller, as well as grief-player is rewarded with all out access. Broadcast chat was originally created as a means to help grouping. It has succeeded in its mission, but failed in general to help the community.
It would have been better for people to actually socialize.
In other words, if you're looking for a group, you should think about going to places where people need to hang out. Like a bar or tavern for thieves and bards, or a library for mages and scholars, or a church for priests. Or a guild hall for your guild mates.
Unfortunately, though, chat circumvents immersion. It literally gives you a way to AVOID real socializing. Now you don't have to travel to the market to sell your relic. You can just spam it on the broadcast channel.
So, when you talk about THE WORST community, please understand that this is the nature of chat. Darkfall's chat community is no better or worse than Age of Conan's, who is no better or worse than Eve Online's, who is no better or worse than World of Warcraft....well, World of Warcraft....
lol...chat, pure "you can talk magically across the world without magic" chat...by its nature, ruins immersion and circumvents adventure.
I take you haven't read the Forumfall. Darkfall is THE WORST community I have ever seen, by far. It's not the nature of chat (????) it's the nature of every sick individual that forms that community.
"The amount of asshats in the community always totally amazes me. I thought that maybe in game it wouldnt be as bad because people would want to protect their name ingame and not be known as complete idiots but I was wrong. The amount of people that run around acting like 12 year olds after a pack or 2 of wizz fizz is just amazing and reminds me that I am on the internet with people who just have no respect. The people in game are like the people on darkfalls forums. Complete douches. This was a major contributing factor to me leaving the game. The community is 10x worse than wows. (sorry to bring that game up)"
I do not think you are a troll. I just think your making a snap judgement based on a game that doesn't even have its full community playing yet.
I would say that one of the self-regulating features of the system is probably that you can go kill a person who talks smack to you over chat. Can you do that in WoW?
----------------------------- Blog -Transcendent''s Tomb - Reviews, Polls, and tortured opinions from the minions of MMORPGS
lol...chat, pure "you can talk magically across the world without magic" chat...by its nature, ruins immersion and circumvents adventure.
That is very true.
However, it also contributes positively to the game. The bad chat examples aside, something like a good clan chat will make the difference between feeling all alone in a multiplayer game and having the idea that you play together with many other people.
Today, a mmo game without also being a glorified chat room, is doomed to fail. Even if that would be more immersive.
I also believe chat can contribute positvely to the game, but I feel it should be implimented in a unique way, and not just attributed to "Trade", "World", or "Zone" channel. For example, I played one game where people could purchase items that allowed them to listen and broadcast on a type of "universal mind link". When they didn't wear it, they received no thoughts from the link.
The one thing I believe we disagree on is whether an mmo game without a glorified chat would fail. Personally, I don't know of an MMO without one. If you do, I'd like to know the history of the game and its failure. Plus, even without worldwide chat, there are applications such as vent, AIM, and so forth that allow chat/talk outside the game.
I don't really know any mmo examples of that either.
There are a few other examples from different multiplayer games. But they don't really fail, instead what happens there is what you already described here. People will find a way around limited chat functionality trough the use of vent.
Fail was a bit of a strong word to use. A new released mmo with limited chat would not really fail, because people will find a way around it if the rest of the game is good enough.
I would say that one of the self-regulating features of the system is probably that you can go kill a person who talks smack to you over chat. Can you do that in WoW?
It would be self-regulating if killing the persons avatar had any effect. Like for example, not being able to talk to you anymore.
WoW has a different system for that in place, ignoring a players chat. I'm sure Darkfall also has a feature like that (or will have eventually).
This game has the absolute worst player community. Can't even ask a question in chat without someone calling you names.
and this is new how? We all know what kind of people these type of games attract. Always will be the bottom feeders of the MMO community. There are some exceptions but its well known in general to who these games attract.
Yeah anyone that was expecting a friendly community with rule sets like this was having a pipe dream......Like many have said Darkfall is a niche game and unfortunately that niche is not a good one.
Originally posted by Zayne3145 Amen to that. I'd rather be a carebear than a knuckle-scraping, mouth-breathing neanderthal like some of the DF community. "ME SMASH!!"
With all the time you have spent coming into the darkfall board to flame the posters it amazes me that you feel you can take the moral highground with any sense of honesty. Seems you are just as low as they are. Wear the medal with pride, son, you've earned it.
WoWers putting hits on Darkfallers... lol. Its like Saddam putting out a jihad on bin Ladin.
Maybe they will destroy eachother so the *true* civilized world can have a place to go to talk about games.
With all the ridiculous generalisations that get made by the DF community about WoW players, I think it's only fair that I paint them with the same broad brush.
This game has the absolute worst player community. Can't even ask a question in chat without someone calling you names.
The problem isn't the community. The problem is "Chat", which I'll explain.
First of all, it is ridiculous to lump "the community" into a catagorical generalization of people who are THE WORST. You are not even considering the people who are waiting in line and haven't even joined in yet. As well, I have doubts you've played enough MMOs to really know who THE WORST community would be.
But what makes up THE WORST community?
For one, broadcast chat enables THE WORST. If an open method of unregulated communication is created in the game, the beginning player as well as the gold-seller, as well as grief-player is rewarded with all out access. Broadcast chat was originally created as a means to help grouping. It has succeeded in its mission, but failed in general to help the community.
It would have been better for people to actually socialize.
In other words, if you're looking for a group, you should think about going to places where people need to hang out. Like a bar or tavern for thieves and bards, or a library for mages and scholars, or a church for priests. Or a guild hall for your guild mates.
Unfortunately, though, chat circumvents immersion. It literally gives you a way to AVOID real socializing. Now you don't have to travel to the market to sell your relic. You can just spam it on the broadcast channel.
So, when you talk about THE WORST community, please understand that this is the nature of chat. Darkfall's chat community is no better or worse than Age of Conan's, who is no better or worse than Eve Online's, who is no better or worse than World of Warcraft....well, World of Warcraft....
lol...chat, pure "you can talk magically across the world without magic" chat...by its nature, ruins immersion and circumvents adventure.
I take you haven't read the Forumfall. Darkfall is THE WORST community I have ever seen, by far. It's not the nature of chat (????) it's the nature of every sick individual that forms that community.
"The amount of asshats in the community always totally amazes me. I thought that maybe in game it wouldnt be as bad because people would want to protect their name ingame and not be known as complete idiots but I was wrong. The amount of people that run around acting like 12 year olds after a pack or 2 of wizz fizz is just amazing and reminds me that I am on the internet with people who just have no respect. The people in game are like the people on darkfalls forums. Complete douches. This was a major contributing factor to me leaving the game. The community is 10x worse than wows. (sorry to bring that game up)"
I do not think you are a troll. I just think your making a snap judgement based on a game that doesn't even have its full community playing yet.
I would say that one of the self-regulating features of the system is probably that you can go kill a person who talks smack to you over chat. Can you do that in WoW?
It's not only my "snap" judgment, which by the way is a snap that lasts for about a year following the Forumfall, it's the judgment of many people, even a major site when previewing the game commented about the disgusting community Darkfall has. I haven't seen this in any preview or review. Sorry but Darkfall is a unique case of really sad community. Just go and read the Mortal Online forums, it's like night and day, and it's the same type of game. I just hope that Darkfall keeps their players and doesn't shut down and send them to MO.
HhusskCity of Heroes CorrespondentMemberPosts: 219
Originally posted by altairzq
Originally posted by Hhussk
Originally posted by altairzq
Originally posted by Hhussk
Originally posted by grimal
This game has the absolute worst player community. Can't even ask a question in chat without someone calling you names.
The problem isn't the community. The problem is "Chat", which I'll explain.
First of all, it is ridiculous to lump "the community" into a catagorical generalization of people who are THE WORST. You are not even considering the people who are waiting in line and haven't even joined in yet. As well, I have doubts you've played enough MMOs to really know who THE WORST community would be.
But what makes up THE WORST community?
For one, broadcast chat enables THE WORST. If an open method of unregulated communication is created in the game, the beginning player as well as the gold-seller, as well as grief-player is rewarded with all out access. Broadcast chat was originally created as a means to help grouping. It has succeeded in its mission, but failed in general to help the community.
It would have been better for people to actually socialize.
In other words, if you're looking for a group, you should think about going to places where people need to hang out. Like a bar or tavern for thieves and bards, or a library for mages and scholars, or a church for priests. Or a guild hall for your guild mates.
Unfortunately, though, chat circumvents immersion. It literally gives you a way to AVOID real socializing. Now you don't have to travel to the market to sell your relic. You can just spam it on the broadcast channel.
So, when you talk about THE WORST community, please understand that this is the nature of chat. Darkfall's chat community is no better or worse than Age of Conan's, who is no better or worse than Eve Online's, who is no better or worse than World of Warcraft....well, World of Warcraft....
lol...chat, pure "you can talk magically across the world without magic" chat...by its nature, ruins immersion and circumvents adventure.
I take you haven't read the Forumfall. Darkfall is THE WORST community I have ever seen, by far. It's not the nature of chat (????) it's the nature of every sick individual that forms that community.
"The amount of asshats in the community always totally amazes me. I thought that maybe in game it wouldnt be as bad because people would want to protect their name ingame and not be known as complete idiots but I was wrong. The amount of people that run around acting like 12 year olds after a pack or 2 of wizz fizz is just amazing and reminds me that I am on the internet with people who just have no respect. The people in game are like the people on darkfalls forums. Complete douches. This was a major contributing factor to me leaving the game. The community is 10x worse than wows. (sorry to bring that game up)"
I do not think you are a troll. I just think your making a snap judgement based on a game that doesn't even have its full community playing yet.
I would say that one of the self-regulating features of the system is probably that you can go kill a person who talks smack to you over chat. Can you do that in WoW?
It's not only my "snap" judgment, which by the way is a snap that lasts for about a year following the Forumfall, it's the judgment of many people, even a major site when previewing the game commented about the disgusting community Darkfall has. I haven't seen this in any preview or review. Sorry but Darkfall is a unique case of really sad community. Just go and read the Mortal Online forums, it's like night and day, and it's the same type of game. I just hope that Darkfall keeps their players and doesn't shut down and send them to MO.
It's a snap judgement based on the fact that the Darkfall "community" you are referring to is basically less than 30 days old. If, a year from now, Darkfall Online maintains a level of community where people are THE WORST, I would give your comment more credibility.
Until then, I'd rather see how things evolve (or devolve) and not make flamboyant accusations.
----------------------------- Blog -Transcendent''s Tomb - Reviews, Polls, and tortured opinions from the minions of MMORPGS
HhusskCity of Heroes CorrespondentMemberPosts: 219
Originally posted by altairzq
Originally posted by DarthRaiden
Originally posted by altairzq
It's not only my "snap" judgment, which by the way is a snap that lasts for about a year following the Forumfall, it's the judgment of many people, even a major site when previewing the game commented about the disgusting community Darkfall has. I haven't seen this in any preview or review. Sorry but Darkfall is a unique case of really sad community. Just go and read the Mortal Online forums, it's like night and day, and it's the same type of game. I just hope that Darkfall keeps their players and doesn't shut down and send them to MO.
I will come over to MO and troll forums to hell over instances..i will show no mercy like how you did on my game for the past year i am here
You are shiny example.
I started by your comment, and I thought I would give you an actual "shining" example of what trolling truly is.
Previously, someone commented about "Mortal Online", a possible great contender in the MMO market due to its skill based leveling and sandbox structure.
Well, right now, Mortal Online completed its timer; it has reached 00:00:00. Guess what, the site is basically down. The server went bust due to traffic or bad data or both.
Now, if you want to troll, all you have to do is say "Mortal Online is obviously fail because they can't even handle a timered event". This is simple trolling because WE KNOW that they will work on fixing their bugs and/or problems. For example, they will likely increase their server load for the next event they prep.
In a similar perspective, AV is the same. They make mistakes and have problems as well. And WE KNOW that they'll work on fixing them. TROLLING, however, is saying (repeating actually) that the game wil fail without even acknowledging the ability for it to move forward, evolve, patch problems and otherwise get more income to upgrade their product.
This is what separates trolling from informative posts.
----------------------------- Blog -Transcendent''s Tomb - Reviews, Polls, and tortured opinions from the minions of MMORPGS
It's not only my "snap" judgment, which by the way is a snap that lasts for about a year following the Forumfall, it's the judgment of many people, even a major site when previewing the game commented about the disgusting community Darkfall has. I haven't seen this in any preview or review. Sorry but Darkfall is a unique case of really sad community. Just go and read the Mortal Online forums, it's like night and day, and it's the same type of game. I just hope that Darkfall keeps their players and doesn't shut down and send them to MO.
I will come over to MO and troll forums to hell over instances..i will show no mercy like how you did on my game for the past year i am here
You are shiny example.
i am not yet, i will become i said.. you on the other hand is already..
I think he meant that you are a shiny example in general, not just because of your prommise to troll the MO forums
It's not only my "snap" judgment, which by the way is a snap that lasts for about a year following the Forumfall, it's the judgment of many people, even a major site when previewing the game commented about the disgusting community Darkfall has. I haven't seen this in any preview or review. Sorry but Darkfall is a unique case of really sad community. Just go and read the Mortal Online forums, it's like night and day, and it's the same type of game. I just hope that Darkfall keeps their players and doesn't shut down and send them to MO.
I will come over to MO and troll forums to hell over instances..i will show no mercy like how you did on my game for the past year i am here
You are shiny example.
i am not yet, i will become i said.. you on the other hand is already..
I think he meant that you are a shiny example in general, not just because of your prommise to troll the MO forums
i guess it was and i take it as compliment afterall ...lol
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
It's not only my "snap" judgment, which by the way is a snap that lasts for about a year following the Forumfall, it's the judgment of many people, even a major site when previewing the game commented about the disgusting community Darkfall has. I haven't seen this in any preview or review. Sorry but Darkfall is a unique case of really sad community. Just go and read the Mortal Online forums, it's like night and day, and it's the same type of game. I just hope that Darkfall keeps their players and doesn't shut down and send them to MO.
I will come over to MO and troll forums to hell over instances..i will show no mercy like how you did on my game for the past year i am here
You are shiny example.
I started by your comment, and I thought I would give you an actual "shining" example of what trolling truly is.
Previously, someone commented about "Mortal Online", a possible great contender in the MMO market due to its skill based leveling and sandbox structure.
Well, right now, Mortal Online completed its timer; it has reached 00:00:00. Guess what, the site is basically down. The server went bust due to traffic or bad data or both.
Now, if you want to troll, all you have to do is say "Mortal Online is obviously fail because they can't even handle a timered event". This is simple trolling because WE KNOW that they will work on fixing their bugs and/or problems. For example, they will likely increase their server load for the next event they prep.
In a similar perspective, AV is the same. They make mistakes and have problems as well. And WE KNOW that they'll work on fixing them. TROLLING, however, is saying (repeating actually) that the game wil fail without even acknowledging the ability for it to move forward, evolve, patch problems and otherwise get more income to upgrade their product.
This is what separates trolling from informative posts.
I disagree.. we are kidnapping the thread.. so i will make it short. It's not mistakes they know very well the web would collapse, it's obvious. But they need the publicity. They piss off the fans but get some expectation drawing the attention of more potential players. They are not idiots. Neither AV, but AV is another story, they simply don't have talent.
Comments
Hey, I think I saw that video... not even joking lol.
... or at least one very similar.
My image of those people - including the ones who pull that kinda crap on forums - is that they have a mirror right near their desk somewhere.. Arcing across the top of the mirror is something like "#1 Bad Ass", or "I PWN N00BS"
Every time they "gank" someone (usually far weaker than them), call someone a "n00b", or a "WoW carebear" or whatever.. They turn to the mirror and flex, marvelling at how e-tough they are.
That's just the image I have in my head when I read some posts, or watch some of these videos with their commentary.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
when people go out of their way to whine about jerks, it's just not fun
This thread is extremely ironic.
you want the best community in an MMO today? go play LOTRO.
The problem isn't the community. The problem is "Chat", which I'll explain.
First of all, it is ridiculous to lump "the community" into a catagorical generalization of people who are THE WORST. You are not even considering the people who are waiting in line and haven't even joined in yet. As well, I have doubts you've played enough MMOs to really know who THE WORST community would be.
But what makes up THE WORST community?
For one, broadcast chat enables THE WORST. If an open method of unregulated communication is created in the game, the beginning player as well as the gold-seller, as well as grief-player is rewarded with all out access. Broadcast chat was originally created as a means to help grouping. It has succeeded in its mission, but failed in general to help the community.
It would have been better for people to actually socialize.
In other words, if you're looking for a group, you should think about going to places where people need to hang out. Like a bar or tavern for thieves and bards, or a library for mages and scholars, or a church for priests. Or a guild hall for your guild mates.
Unfortunately, though, chat circumvents immersion. It literally gives you a way to AVOID real socializing. Now you don't have to travel to the market to sell your relic. You can just spam it on the broadcast channel.
So, when you talk about THE WORST community, please understand that this is the nature of chat. Darkfall's chat community is no better or worse than Age of Conan's, who is no better or worse than Eve Online's, who is no better or worse than World of Warcraft....well, World of Warcraft....
lol...chat, pure "you can talk magically across the world without magic" chat...by its nature, ruins immersion and circumvents adventure.
-----------------------------
Blog -Transcendent''s Tomb - Reviews, Polls, and tortured opinions from the minions of MMORPGS
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Hhussk
That is very true.
However, it also contributes positively to the game. The bad chat examples aside, something like a good clan chat will make the difference between feeling all alone in a multiplayer game and having the idea that you play together with many other people.
Today, a mmo game without also being a glorified chat room, is doomed to fail. Even if that would be more immersive.
ROFL, nice, was thinking the same thing. Gather them all up in one place and keep them away from the rest of the civilized world.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
ROFL, nice, was thinking the same thing. Gather them all up in one place and keep them away from the rest of the civilized world.
Amen to that.
I'd rather be a carebear than a knuckle-scraping, mouth-breathing neanderthal like some of the DF community.
"ME SMASH!!"
Best post in ages !!!! SALUTE
With all the time you have spent coming into the darkfall board to flame the posters it amazes me that you feel you can take the moral highground with any sense of honesty. Seems you are just as low as they are. Wear the medal with pride, son, you've earned it.
WoWers putting hits on Darkfallers... lol. Its like Saddam putting out a jihad on bin Ladin.
Maybe they will destroy eachother so the *true* civilized world can have a place to go to talk about games.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
The problem isn't the community. The problem is "Chat", which I'll explain.
First of all, it is ridiculous to lump "the community" into a catagorical generalization of people who are THE WORST. You are not even considering the people who are waiting in line and haven't even joined in yet. As well, I have doubts you've played enough MMOs to really know who THE WORST community would be.
But what makes up THE WORST community?
For one, broadcast chat enables THE WORST. If an open method of unregulated communication is created in the game, the beginning player as well as the gold-seller, as well as grief-player is rewarded with all out access. Broadcast chat was originally created as a means to help grouping. It has succeeded in its mission, but failed in general to help the community.
It would have been better for people to actually socialize.
In other words, if you're looking for a group, you should think about going to places where people need to hang out. Like a bar or tavern for thieves and bards, or a library for mages and scholars, or a church for priests. Or a guild hall for your guild mates.
Unfortunately, though, chat circumvents immersion. It literally gives you a way to AVOID real socializing. Now you don't have to travel to the market to sell your relic. You can just spam it on the broadcast channel.
So, when you talk about THE WORST community, please understand that this is the nature of chat. Darkfall's chat community is no better or worse than Age of Conan's, who is no better or worse than Eve Online's, who is no better or worse than World of Warcraft....well, World of Warcraft....
lol...chat, pure "you can talk magically across the world without magic" chat...by its nature, ruins immersion and circumvents adventure.
I take you haven't read the Forumfall. Darkfall is THE WORST community I have ever seen, by far. It's not the nature of chat (????) it's the nature of every sick individual that forms that community.
EDIT: I just read this thread by Holymonk about why he unsubscribed DF www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/229085/Why-I-unsubscribed-from-Darkfall.html after writing my reply. Many of us "trolls"said months ago that this community would be harmful for the future of the game. I will paste this part here:
"The amount of asshats in the community always totally amazes me. I thought that maybe in game it wouldnt be as bad because people would want to protect their name ingame and not be known as complete idiots but I was wrong. The amount of people that run around acting like 12 year olds after a pack or 2 of wizz fizz is just amazing and reminds me that I am on the internet with people who just have no respect. The people in game are like the people on darkfalls forums. Complete douches. This was a major contributing factor to me leaving the game. The community is 10x worse than wows. (sorry to bring that game up)"
That is very true.
However, it also contributes positively to the game. The bad chat examples aside, something like a good clan chat will make the difference between feeling all alone in a multiplayer game and having the idea that you play together with many other people.
Today, a mmo game without also being a glorified chat room, is doomed to fail. Even if that would be more immersive.
I also believe chat can contribute positvely to the game, but I feel it should be implimented in a unique way, and not just attributed to "Trade", "World", or "Zone" channel. For example, I played one game where people could purchase items that allowed them to listen and broadcast on a type of "universal mind link". When they didn't wear it, they received no thoughts from the link.
The one thing I believe we disagree on is whether an mmo game without a glorified chat would fail. Personally, I don't know of an MMO without one. If you do, I'd like to know the history of the game and its failure. Plus, even without worldwide chat, there are applications such as vent, AIM, and so forth that allow chat/talk outside the game.
-----------------------------
Blog -Transcendent''s Tomb - Reviews, Polls, and tortured opinions from the minions of MMORPGS
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Hhussk
The problem isn't the community. The problem is "Chat", which I'll explain.
First of all, it is ridiculous to lump "the community" into a catagorical generalization of people who are THE WORST. You are not even considering the people who are waiting in line and haven't even joined in yet. As well, I have doubts you've played enough MMOs to really know who THE WORST community would be.
But what makes up THE WORST community?
For one, broadcast chat enables THE WORST. If an open method of unregulated communication is created in the game, the beginning player as well as the gold-seller, as well as grief-player is rewarded with all out access. Broadcast chat was originally created as a means to help grouping. It has succeeded in its mission, but failed in general to help the community.
It would have been better for people to actually socialize.
In other words, if you're looking for a group, you should think about going to places where people need to hang out. Like a bar or tavern for thieves and bards, or a library for mages and scholars, or a church for priests. Or a guild hall for your guild mates.
Unfortunately, though, chat circumvents immersion. It literally gives you a way to AVOID real socializing. Now you don't have to travel to the market to sell your relic. You can just spam it on the broadcast channel.
So, when you talk about THE WORST community, please understand that this is the nature of chat. Darkfall's chat community is no better or worse than Age of Conan's, who is no better or worse than Eve Online's, who is no better or worse than World of Warcraft....well, World of Warcraft....
lol...chat, pure "you can talk magically across the world without magic" chat...by its nature, ruins immersion and circumvents adventure.
I take you haven't read the Forumfall. Darkfall is THE WORST community I have ever seen, by far. It's not the nature of chat (????) it's the nature of every sick individual that forms that community.
EDIT: I just read this thread by Holymonk about why he unsubscribed DF www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/229085/Why-I-unsubscribed-from-Darkfall.html after writing my reply. Many of us "trolls"said months ago that this community would be harmful for the future of the game. I will paste this part here:
"The amount of asshats in the community always totally amazes me. I thought that maybe in game it wouldnt be as bad because people would want to protect their name ingame and not be known as complete idiots but I was wrong. The amount of people that run around acting like 12 year olds after a pack or 2 of wizz fizz is just amazing and reminds me that I am on the internet with people who just have no respect. The people in game are like the people on darkfalls forums. Complete douches. This was a major contributing factor to me leaving the game. The community is 10x worse than wows. (sorry to bring that game up)"
I do not think you are a troll. I just think your making a snap judgement based on a game that doesn't even have its full community playing yet.
I would say that one of the self-regulating features of the system is probably that you can go kill a person who talks smack to you over chat. Can you do that in WoW?
-----------------------------
Blog -Transcendent''s Tomb - Reviews, Polls, and tortured opinions from the minions of MMORPGS
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Hhussk
That is very true.
However, it also contributes positively to the game. The bad chat examples aside, something like a good clan chat will make the difference between feeling all alone in a multiplayer game and having the idea that you play together with many other people.
Today, a mmo game without also being a glorified chat room, is doomed to fail. Even if that would be more immersive.
I also believe chat can contribute positvely to the game, but I feel it should be implimented in a unique way, and not just attributed to "Trade", "World", or "Zone" channel. For example, I played one game where people could purchase items that allowed them to listen and broadcast on a type of "universal mind link". When they didn't wear it, they received no thoughts from the link.
The one thing I believe we disagree on is whether an mmo game without a glorified chat would fail. Personally, I don't know of an MMO without one. If you do, I'd like to know the history of the game and its failure. Plus, even without worldwide chat, there are applications such as vent, AIM, and so forth that allow chat/talk outside the game.
I don't really know any mmo examples of that either.
There are a few other examples from different multiplayer games. But they don't really fail, instead what happens there is what you already described here. People will find a way around limited chat functionality trough the use of vent.
Fail was a bit of a strong word to use. A new released mmo with limited chat would not really fail, because people will find a way around it if the rest of the game is good enough.
It would be self-regulating if killing the persons avatar had any effect. Like for example, not being able to talk to you anymore.
WoW has a different system for that in place, ignoring a players chat. I'm sure Darkfall also has a feature like that (or will have eventually).
and this is new how? We all know what kind of people these type of games attract. Always will be the bottom feeders of the MMO community. There are some exceptions but its well known in general to who these games attract.
Yeah anyone that was expecting a friendly community with rule sets like this was having a pipe dream......Like many have said Darkfall is a niche game and unfortunately that niche is not a good one.
LOL what did you expect? You are obviously not "hardcore" enough to play Darkfall.
Wait did you say ask a question in chat? Didn't know the chat worked I better go buy a copy of this game now. O wait....
With all the time you have spent coming into the darkfall board to flame the posters it amazes me that you feel you can take the moral highground with any sense of honesty. Seems you are just as low as they are. Wear the medal with pride, son, you've earned it.
WoWers putting hits on Darkfallers... lol. Its like Saddam putting out a jihad on bin Ladin.
Maybe they will destroy eachother so the *true* civilized world can have a place to go to talk about games.
With all the ridiculous generalisations that get made by the DF community about WoW players, I think it's only fair that I paint them with the same broad brush.
Worst community? have you ever played F2p MMOs? the communities in most F2p are horrid.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
The problem isn't the community. The problem is "Chat", which I'll explain.
First of all, it is ridiculous to lump "the community" into a catagorical generalization of people who are THE WORST. You are not even considering the people who are waiting in line and haven't even joined in yet. As well, I have doubts you've played enough MMOs to really know who THE WORST community would be.
But what makes up THE WORST community?
For one, broadcast chat enables THE WORST. If an open method of unregulated communication is created in the game, the beginning player as well as the gold-seller, as well as grief-player is rewarded with all out access. Broadcast chat was originally created as a means to help grouping. It has succeeded in its mission, but failed in general to help the community.
It would have been better for people to actually socialize.
In other words, if you're looking for a group, you should think about going to places where people need to hang out. Like a bar or tavern for thieves and bards, or a library for mages and scholars, or a church for priests. Or a guild hall for your guild mates.
Unfortunately, though, chat circumvents immersion. It literally gives you a way to AVOID real socializing. Now you don't have to travel to the market to sell your relic. You can just spam it on the broadcast channel.
So, when you talk about THE WORST community, please understand that this is the nature of chat. Darkfall's chat community is no better or worse than Age of Conan's, who is no better or worse than Eve Online's, who is no better or worse than World of Warcraft....well, World of Warcraft....
lol...chat, pure "you can talk magically across the world without magic" chat...by its nature, ruins immersion and circumvents adventure.
I take you haven't read the Forumfall. Darkfall is THE WORST community I have ever seen, by far. It's not the nature of chat (????) it's the nature of every sick individual that forms that community.
EDIT: I just read this thread by Holymonk about why he unsubscribed DF www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/229085/Why-I-unsubscribed-from-Darkfall.html after writing my reply. Many of us "trolls"said months ago that this community would be harmful for the future of the game. I will paste this part here:
"The amount of asshats in the community always totally amazes me. I thought that maybe in game it wouldnt be as bad because people would want to protect their name ingame and not be known as complete idiots but I was wrong. The amount of people that run around acting like 12 year olds after a pack or 2 of wizz fizz is just amazing and reminds me that I am on the internet with people who just have no respect. The people in game are like the people on darkfalls forums. Complete douches. This was a major contributing factor to me leaving the game. The community is 10x worse than wows. (sorry to bring that game up)"
I do not think you are a troll. I just think your making a snap judgement based on a game that doesn't even have its full community playing yet.
I would say that one of the self-regulating features of the system is probably that you can go kill a person who talks smack to you over chat. Can you do that in WoW?
It's not only my "snap" judgment, which by the way is a snap that lasts for about a year following the Forumfall, it's the judgment of many people, even a major site when previewing the game commented about the disgusting community Darkfall has. I haven't seen this in any preview or review. Sorry but Darkfall is a unique case of really sad community. Just go and read the Mortal Online forums, it's like night and day, and it's the same type of game. I just hope that Darkfall keeps their players and doesn't shut down and send them to MO.
The problem isn't the community. The problem is "Chat", which I'll explain.
First of all, it is ridiculous to lump "the community" into a catagorical generalization of people who are THE WORST. You are not even considering the people who are waiting in line and haven't even joined in yet. As well, I have doubts you've played enough MMOs to really know who THE WORST community would be.
But what makes up THE WORST community?
For one, broadcast chat enables THE WORST. If an open method of unregulated communication is created in the game, the beginning player as well as the gold-seller, as well as grief-player is rewarded with all out access. Broadcast chat was originally created as a means to help grouping. It has succeeded in its mission, but failed in general to help the community.
It would have been better for people to actually socialize.
In other words, if you're looking for a group, you should think about going to places where people need to hang out. Like a bar or tavern for thieves and bards, or a library for mages and scholars, or a church for priests. Or a guild hall for your guild mates.
Unfortunately, though, chat circumvents immersion. It literally gives you a way to AVOID real socializing. Now you don't have to travel to the market to sell your relic. You can just spam it on the broadcast channel.
So, when you talk about THE WORST community, please understand that this is the nature of chat. Darkfall's chat community is no better or worse than Age of Conan's, who is no better or worse than Eve Online's, who is no better or worse than World of Warcraft....well, World of Warcraft....
lol...chat, pure "you can talk magically across the world without magic" chat...by its nature, ruins immersion and circumvents adventure.
I take you haven't read the Forumfall. Darkfall is THE WORST community I have ever seen, by far. It's not the nature of chat (????) it's the nature of every sick individual that forms that community.
EDIT: I just read this thread by Holymonk about why he unsubscribed DF www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/229085/Why-I-unsubscribed-from-Darkfall.html after writing my reply. Many of us "trolls"said months ago that this community would be harmful for the future of the game. I will paste this part here:
"The amount of asshats in the community always totally amazes me. I thought that maybe in game it wouldnt be as bad because people would want to protect their name ingame and not be known as complete idiots but I was wrong. The amount of people that run around acting like 12 year olds after a pack or 2 of wizz fizz is just amazing and reminds me that I am on the internet with people who just have no respect. The people in game are like the people on darkfalls forums. Complete douches. This was a major contributing factor to me leaving the game. The community is 10x worse than wows. (sorry to bring that game up)"
I do not think you are a troll. I just think your making a snap judgement based on a game that doesn't even have its full community playing yet.
I would say that one of the self-regulating features of the system is probably that you can go kill a person who talks smack to you over chat. Can you do that in WoW?
It's not only my "snap" judgment, which by the way is a snap that lasts for about a year following the Forumfall, it's the judgment of many people, even a major site when previewing the game commented about the disgusting community Darkfall has. I haven't seen this in any preview or review. Sorry but Darkfall is a unique case of really sad community. Just go and read the Mortal Online forums, it's like night and day, and it's the same type of game. I just hope that Darkfall keeps their players and doesn't shut down and send them to MO.
It's a snap judgement based on the fact that the Darkfall "community" you are referring to is basically less than 30 days old. If, a year from now, Darkfall Online maintains a level of community where people are THE WORST, I would give your comment more credibility.
Until then, I'd rather see how things evolve (or devolve) and not make flamboyant accusations.
-----------------------------
Blog -Transcendent''s Tomb - Reviews, Polls, and tortured opinions from the minions of MMORPGS
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Hhussk
I will come over to MO and troll forums to hell over instances..i will show no mercy like how you did on my game for the past year i am here
You are shiny example.
I started by your comment, and I thought I would give you an actual "shining" example of what trolling truly is.
Previously, someone commented about "Mortal Online", a possible great contender in the MMO market due to its skill based leveling and sandbox structure.
Well, right now, Mortal Online completed its timer; it has reached 00:00:00. Guess what, the site is basically down. The server went bust due to traffic or bad data or both.
Now, if you want to troll, all you have to do is say "Mortal Online is obviously fail because they can't even handle a timered event". This is simple trolling because WE KNOW that they will work on fixing their bugs and/or problems. For example, they will likely increase their server load for the next event they prep.
In a similar perspective, AV is the same. They make mistakes and have problems as well. And WE KNOW that they'll work on fixing them. TROLLING, however, is saying (repeating actually) that the game wil fail without even acknowledging the ability for it to move forward, evolve, patch problems and otherwise get more income to upgrade their product.
This is what separates trolling from informative posts.
-----------------------------
Blog -Transcendent''s Tomb - Reviews, Polls, and tortured opinions from the minions of MMORPGS
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Hhussk
I will come over to MO and troll forums to hell over instances..i will show no mercy like how you did on my game for the past year i am here
You are shiny example.
i am not yet, i will become i said.. you on the other hand is already..
I think he meant that you are a shiny example in general, not just because of your prommise to troll the MO forums
I will come over to MO and troll forums to hell over instances..i will show no mercy like how you did on my game for the past year i am here
You are shiny example.
i am not yet, i will become i said.. you on the other hand is already..
I think he meant that you are a shiny example in general, not just because of your prommise to troll the MO forums
i guess it was and i take it as compliment afterall ...lol
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
I will come over to MO and troll forums to hell over instances..i will show no mercy like how you did on my game for the past year i am here
You are shiny example.
I started by your comment, and I thought I would give you an actual "shining" example of what trolling truly is.
Previously, someone commented about "Mortal Online", a possible great contender in the MMO market due to its skill based leveling and sandbox structure.
Well, right now, Mortal Online completed its timer; it has reached 00:00:00. Guess what, the site is basically down. The server went bust due to traffic or bad data or both.
Now, if you want to troll, all you have to do is say "Mortal Online is obviously fail because they can't even handle a timered event". This is simple trolling because WE KNOW that they will work on fixing their bugs and/or problems. For example, they will likely increase their server load for the next event they prep.
In a similar perspective, AV is the same. They make mistakes and have problems as well. And WE KNOW that they'll work on fixing them. TROLLING, however, is saying (repeating actually) that the game wil fail without even acknowledging the ability for it to move forward, evolve, patch problems and otherwise get more income to upgrade their product.
This is what separates trolling from informative posts.
I disagree.. we are kidnapping the thread.. so i will make it short. It's not mistakes they know very well the web would collapse, it's obvious. But they need the publicity. They piss off the fans but get some expectation drawing the attention of more potential players. They are not idiots. Neither AV, but AV is another story, they simply don't have talent.