If you ever worked for a business that relied heavily on proper expectations being set like me then you would know better than to say that AV was just "hoping" and not "baiting." If the salespeople set improper expectataions then your image suffers when the job is completed. This is basically why people get so upset at Tasos. He was selling a potential product regardless of what was actually said. By him saying hope he insinuated that it was something that was going to be implimented. However, by using that word he also gave himself a out. I've worked sales and have used the same style of wording to cover myself. Now I realize that I was still setting improper expectations. Being on the production side of things I've learned a lot of the terms like hope are really a baiting tactic.
Everytime someone used the word "vaporware" in reference to df, they were claiming the game would never release. The game has been released.
It is no longer vaporware. Darkfall could be considered a dissappointment by some but that doesnt mean its vaporware.
Okay like i said before vaporware has been used on games that released.
But i forgot DF doesnt fall under the same rules as other games. Vaporware and releasing have nothing to do with each other, it hasnt for a awhile now. Maybe years and years ago it did. But words change like i was trying to explain to dictionary man.
Words evovle. Ill say it again Words Evolve. Its not like Im saying lets change the word just for DF, its been changed before DF.
Vaporware is a insult used on games that are in dev a long time and what was new become old and outdated. But whatever guys you two will just have to wait till wiki sites and dictionarys update before you catch up but probaly by then vaporware will be vaporware. The new word will be Darkfail. We got failcom and Darkfail.
If you ever worked for a business that relied heavily on proper expectations being set like me then you would know better than to say that AV was just "hoping" and not "baiting." If the salespeople set improper expectataions then your image suffers when the job is completed. This is basically why people get so upset at Tasos. He was selling a potential product regardless of what was actually said. By him saying hope he insinuated that it was something that was going to be implimented. However, by using that word he also gave himself a out. I've worked sales and have used the same style of wording to cover myself. Now I realize that I was still setting improper expectations. Being on the production side of things I've learned a lot of the terms like hope are really a baiting tactic.
So Tasos is a professional salesman. He has a loophole which he knows will be exploited after he falls under the fire of criticism, when his fanbot army can come to his rescue by pointing out indecisive words such as "hope". Javac - prime example; except he takes it a step further and blames trolls for taking it "out of context", which, as you so nicely pointed out, most people would do, not just trolls. Or are most people trolls, javac?
Remember when people didn't make emotion baseless posts on web forums to argue opinions rather then facts ad nauseum?
No.
And I've been active in online communities since 1988. (Yes, that's "Eighty Eight", as in, over 20 years ago. Started with good ol' CI$. $12.95 an hour for 2400 baud. Anyone who thinks there was ever a golden age of enlightened and intelligent conversation on the Internet, or its ancestors, is either lying or stupid.)
Everyone was wrong to be honest. The trolls because a game does exist. The fans were because its nothing like what was promised. It was supposed to be more than the worlds largest UT map guys and you know it. So no one wins in this one except those who more or less moved on to another game without losing money to a piss poor company
what a crock, it's exactly what was discussed (Av has never 'promised' anything).
the problem is that idiots can't/won't read. classic case in point:
tasos said: "Our hope for Darkfall is that you won't spend a
cent on the game until you've tried it and decided you want to play it. "
which idiots, still to this day, interpreted as:
"we 100% promise to offer a free trial before buying"
since when does 'hope' become 'promise'? there are dozens of other examples of idiots not reading & taking shit out of context.
DF is fine. sure it has a bunch of teething issues that *every* first-time MMO developer (including blizz & others) goes through with their first MMO, but vapourware? what a crock.
So the features page wasnt promised? Feature complete and hold 10k concurrent wasnt promised? How about the better shape than any other game launched. And o yeah the try before you buy was a promise. Implied and never denied is as good in perception as a promise. Look we all know you suck the penis that Tasos gives you and say how much you love the salty taste but to also be blind is just utter basement boy ignorance.
It's probably because these guys that like salty things in the mouth have that beaten wife type mentality when it really comes down to it.
Also, notice how it is only people who haven't played the game that claim it is a failure...
If you are currently enjoying the game, then great, please continue to do so. This is not an attempt to bash, flame, or troll, but merely to point out an inconsistency with this statement (which I do believe I saw a similar comment from you in another thread, the, "It's funny how 99% of the people who have played Darkfall like it, and 99% of the people who haven't played and post here hate it.). It seems pretty obvious that more than 1% of the people who have played Darkfall don't like it, as there are threads to be found on this site and others stating quite the opposite (I really couldn't guess at the actual numbers and have no desire to dig up threads and try and calculate percentages).
There are people that have tried it and hated it and bashed it, people who thought it was so/so, and people who have discovered that it is definitely not for them. Just do some searching on the multitude of mmo gaming forums, and I promise you'll find them. As well, I'm pretty sure you can find people who tried the game, proclaimed it a failure, and never posted a word on any forums (just as you will find plenty of people who played it, loved it and never posted anything on the forums).
There may be a large percentage of peeps who tried it and liked it, but 99% is highly unlikely for any game, not even a game with mass appeal such as WoW could hope to achieve something like that.
Now, if you are talking about people posting specifically in this thread, then you might have an argument, because I don't know who has and has not played.
Sorry to interrupt, have fun flaming, trolling, and fanboi'ing.
Originally posted by EvolvedMonky Originally posted by logangregor Everytime someone used the word "vaporware" in reference to df, they were claiming the game would never release. The game has been released. It is no longer vaporware. Darkfall could be considered a dissappointment by some but that doesnt mean its vaporware.
Okay like i said before vaporware has been used on games that released. But i forgot DF doesnt fall under the same rules as other games. Vaporware and releasing have nothing to do with each other, it hasnt for a awhile now. Maybe years and years ago it did. But words change like i was trying to explain to dictionary man. Words evovle. Ill say it again Words Evolve. Its not like Im saying lets change the word just for DF, its been changed before DF. Vaporware is a insult used on games that are in dev a long time and what was new become old and outdated. But whatever guys you two will just have to wait till wiki sites and dictionarys update before you catch up but probaly by then vaporware will be vaporware. The new word will be Darkfail. We got failcom and Darkfail.
Words do change from what they meant in the dictionary. We agree on that.
I do not agree that the PC gaming community as a whole embraces your definition of the word "vaporware" although you gave an obscure article reference.
In reference to Darkfall being vaporware, as you very well know, in the last couple years up until now, there have been a plethora of posts claiming Darkfall is vaporware.
In the context of those posts(<---IMPORTANT) those authors were not claiming the game would be released but fall short of expectations or lack any expected content.
Darkfall is not vapor ware.
Its here.
It works.
It exists.
I can purchase it.
I can download it.
I can watch videos of DF.
I can read reviews of DF.
I can even waste my time arguing with someone who likes to create unfounded definitions for the word Vaporware.
In the spirit of making up definitions in a niche pc gaming culture, I believe your definition of vaporware is vapocabulary.
Everytime someone used the word "vaporware" in reference to df, they were claiming the game would never release.
The game has been released.
It is no longer vaporware.
Darkfall could be considered a dissappointment by some but that doesnt mean its vaporware.
Okay like i said before vaporware has been used on games that released.
But i forgot DF doesnt fall under the same rules as other games. Vaporware and releasing have nothing to do with each other, it hasnt for a awhile now. Maybe years and years ago it did. But words change like i was trying to explain to dictionary man.
Words evovle. Ill say it again Words Evolve. Its not like Im saying lets change the word just for DF, its been changed before DF.
Vaporware is a insult used on games that are in dev a long time and what was new become old and outdated. But whatever guys you two will just have to wait till wiki sites and dictionarys update before you catch up but probaly by then vaporware will be vaporware. The new word will be Darkfail. We got failcom and Darkfail.
[..]
I can purchase it.
[..]
Only if your the fastest F5 hitter in the west.
I do agree that conventional wording like "release" or "vapourware" have come about by normal general public releases or lack there of. DF is consistently anything but conventional or even anything like normality. I am afriad to think what other companies watching this fiasco are thinking. SOE might be preparing the "how far we can push the fanbase" tactic as we speak... thanks AV !
As much as the game might suck, it isn't vapourware. I did release, kind of. DF needs a new phrase coined. How about "near-vapourware", as they released a shell of what was promised to a select few buyers.
Originally posted by tombear81 Originally posted by logangregor
Originally posted by EvolvedMonky
Originally posted by logangregor
Everytime someone used the word "vaporware" in reference to df, they were claiming the game would never release. The game has been released. It is no longer vaporware. Darkfall could be considered a dissappointment by some but that doesnt mean its vaporware.
Okay like i said before vaporware has been used on games that released. But i forgot DF doesnt fall under the same rules as other games. Vaporware and releasing have nothing to do with each other, it hasnt for a awhile now. Maybe years and years ago it did. But words change like i was trying to explain to dictionary man. Words evovle. Ill say it again Words Evolve. Its not like Im saying lets change the word just for DF, its been changed before DF. Vaporware is a insult used on games that are in dev a long time and what was new become old and outdated. But whatever guys you two will just have to wait till wiki sites and dictionarys update before you catch up but probaly by then vaporware will be vaporware. The new word will be Darkfail. We got failcom and Darkfail.
[..] I can purchase it. [..]
Only if your the fastest F5 hitter in the west. I do agree that conventional wording like "release" or "vapourware" have come about by normal general public releases or lack there of. DF is consistently anything but conventional or even anything like normality.
I am afriad to think what other companies watching this fiasco are thinking. SOE might be preparing the "how far we can push the fanbase" tactic as we speak... thanks AV !
I knew someone would make some comment about one small part of my post.
As to Aventurine giving SOE bad ideas...I disagree completely. Soe and EA have enough bad ideas without anyone elses help.
When discussing DF, what comes to my mind is, why didnt any other company make a FFA game.
Of all the bad ideas that SOE or EA had ruining games and whatnot...they never made a FFA game. Which turns out to be not such a bad idea. GO figure.
Everyone was wrong to be honest. The trolls because a game does exist. The fans were because its nothing like what was promised. It was supposed to be more than the worlds largest UT map guys and you know it. So no one wins in this one except those who more or less moved on to another game without losing money to a piss poor company
what a crock, it's exactly what was discussed (Av has never 'promised' anything).
the problem is that idiots can't/won't read. classic case in point:
tasos said: "Our hope for Darkfall is that you won't spend a
cent on the game until you've tried it and decided you want to play it. "
which idiots, still to this day, interpreted as:
"we 100% promise to offer a free trial before buying"
since when does 'hope' become 'promise'? there are dozens of other examples of idiots not reading & taking shit out of context.
DF is fine. sure it has a bunch of teething issues that *every* first-time MMO developer (including blizz & others) goes through with their first MMO, but vapourware? what a crock.
Hey Javac, you are wrong. Here you go.. Now.. be quiet, fan boy.
Darkfall places no restrictions on player interaction, so there are no developer imposed safe zones, no realms, factions, PvP zones, or any other roadblocks that limit your game. Anyone can fight anyone, anywhere as long as they are willing to face the consequences - in the form of Darkfall?s alignment system.
And next up, I'm especially excited for the e-sport like events..
Test your mettle in Darkfall?s Arena Events where individual players and teams compete for fun and profit.
Also, notice how it is only people who haven't played the game that claim it is a failure...
No, there are a lot of posts on this forum by people who played either the beta or the release (difference?) who are disappointed. So much so that they sell their account (in case they bought the release).
Originally posted by thinktank001 Originally posted by maskedweasel Hey, Remember when that guy tried to tell me vaporware meant something other then what it meant? That was crazy....
If DF folds before a NA server release, and doesn't stay around I wouldn't be surprised to see it fall under the vaporware category.
For DF to fall under the vaporware category you would have to go back in time and kill off the devs.
I never thought Darkfall would be vaporware per se, though I think a smarter company would have cut their losses two years ago. I did say, and so far seem to be proven right, that it would fall far short of expectations. If what you were expecting was a giant Quake level where all there is to do is run around and randomly attack people in giant, pointless, combat, with "full loot" meaning the exciting seizure of low-level items from people who have stockpiles of dozens, then, yes, your expectations were met. If you were expecting a return to the ideal (never actually met) of UO, of an actual world with roles besides "Psycho killer" and characters beyond "Uber flavor of the week" skill sets, then, your expectations were NOT met, and are very unlikely to be.
"Darkfall is feature complete and we're doing beta testing using professional testers as we've said before."
"Based on the above {AI testing scheme}, it's conceivable that we may be further along in development than several games in beta, or with announced release dates"
"We welcome the "too good to be true" or the "Darkfall promises everything" ranting about Darkfall because we're in a position to know that we'll offer more than we promise. If we're going to be called anything right before we come out, "too good to be true" is about as good as it gets."
Remember when they said they were reducing the amount of NPC's because they take up space for real players. NPC's must be in Queing, same goes with the mob's I guess.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Remember when they said they were reducing the amount of NPC's because they take up space for real players. NPC's must be in Queing, same goes with the mob's I guess.
Darkfall AI is so awesome that when you kill a goblin scout, it will say:
Comments
If you ever worked for a business that relied heavily on proper expectations being set like me then you would know better than to say that AV was just "hoping" and not "baiting." If the salespeople set improper expectataions then your image suffers when the job is completed. This is basically why people get so upset at Tasos. He was selling a potential product regardless of what was actually said. By him saying hope he insinuated that it was something that was going to be implimented. However, by using that word he also gave himself a out. I've worked sales and have used the same style of wording to cover myself. Now I realize that I was still setting improper expectations. Being on the production side of things I've learned a lot of the terms like hope are really a baiting tactic.
-Almerel
Hello my old friend.
Okay like i said before vaporware has been used on games that released.
But i forgot DF doesnt fall under the same rules as other games. Vaporware and releasing have nothing to do with each other, it hasnt for a awhile now. Maybe years and years ago it did. But words change like i was trying to explain to dictionary man.
Words evovle. Ill say it again Words Evolve. Its not like Im saying lets change the word just for DF, its been changed before DF.
Vaporware is a insult used on games that are in dev a long time and what was new become old and outdated. But whatever guys you two will just have to wait till wiki sites and dictionarys update before you catch up but probaly by then vaporware will be vaporware. The new word will be Darkfail. We got failcom and Darkfail.
So Tasos is a professional salesman. He has a loophole which he knows will be exploited after he falls under the fire of criticism, when his fanbot army can come to his rescue by pointing out indecisive words such as "hope". Javac - prime example; except he takes it a step further and blames trolls for taking it "out of context", which, as you so nicely pointed out, most people would do, not just trolls. Or are most people trolls, javac?
Interesting.
No.
And I've been active in online communities since 1988. (Yes, that's "Eighty Eight", as in, over 20 years ago. Started with good ol' CI$. $12.95 an hour for 2400 baud. Anyone who thinks there was ever a golden age of enlightened and intelligent conversation on the Internet, or its ancestors, is either lying or stupid.)
what a crock, it's exactly what was discussed (Av has never 'promised' anything).
the problem is that idiots can't/won't read. classic case in point:
tasos said: "Our hope for Darkfall is that you won't spend a
cent on the game until you've tried it and decided you want to play it. "
which idiots, still to this day, interpreted as:
"we 100% promise to offer a free trial before buying"
since when does 'hope' become 'promise'? there are dozens of other examples of idiots not reading & taking shit out of context.
DF is fine. sure it has a bunch of teething issues that *every* first-time MMO developer (including blizz & others) goes through with their first MMO, but vapourware? what a crock.
So the features page wasnt promised? Feature complete and hold 10k concurrent wasnt promised? How about the better shape than any other game launched. And o yeah the try before you buy was a promise. Implied and never denied is as good in perception as a promise. Look we all know you suck the penis that Tasos gives you and say how much you love the salty taste but to also be blind is just utter basement boy ignorance.
It's probably because these guys that like salty things in the mouth have that beaten wife type mentality when it really comes down to it.
If you are currently enjoying the game, then great, please continue to do so. This is not an attempt to bash, flame, or troll, but merely to point out an inconsistency with this statement (which I do believe I saw a similar comment from you in another thread, the, "It's funny how 99% of the people who have played Darkfall like it, and 99% of the people who haven't played and post here hate it.). It seems pretty obvious that more than 1% of the people who have played Darkfall don't like it, as there are threads to be found on this site and others stating quite the opposite (I really couldn't guess at the actual numbers and have no desire to dig up threads and try and calculate percentages).
There are people that have tried it and hated it and bashed it, people who thought it was so/so, and people who have discovered that it is definitely not for them. Just do some searching on the multitude of mmo gaming forums, and I promise you'll find them. As well, I'm pretty sure you can find people who tried the game, proclaimed it a failure, and never posted a word on any forums (just as you will find plenty of people who played it, loved it and never posted anything on the forums).
There may be a large percentage of peeps who tried it and liked it, but 99% is highly unlikely for any game, not even a game with mass appeal such as WoW could hope to achieve something like that.
Now, if you are talking about people posting specifically in this thread, then you might have an argument, because I don't know who has and has not played.
Sorry to interrupt, have fun flaming, trolling, and fanboi'ing.
Okay like i said before vaporware has been used on games that released.
But i forgot DF doesnt fall under the same rules as other games. Vaporware and releasing have nothing to do with each other, it hasnt for a awhile now. Maybe years and years ago it did. But words change like i was trying to explain to dictionary man.
Words evovle. Ill say it again Words Evolve. Its not like Im saying lets change the word just for DF, its been changed before DF.
Vaporware is a insult used on games that are in dev a long time and what was new become old and outdated. But whatever guys you two will just have to wait till wiki sites and dictionarys update before you catch up but probaly by then vaporware will be vaporware. The new word will be Darkfail. We got failcom and Darkfail.
Words do change from what they meant in the dictionary. We agree on that.
I do not agree that the PC gaming community as a whole embraces your definition of the word "vaporware" although you gave an obscure article reference.
In reference to Darkfall being vaporware, as you very well know, in the last couple years up until now, there have been a plethora of posts claiming Darkfall is vaporware.
In the context of those posts(<---IMPORTANT) those authors were not claiming the game would be released but fall short of expectations or lack any expected content.
Darkfall is not vapor ware.
Its here.
It works.
It exists.
I can purchase it.
I can download it.
I can watch videos of DF.
I can read reviews of DF.
I can even waste my time arguing with someone who likes to create unfounded definitions for the word Vaporware.
In the spirit of making up definitions in a niche pc gaming culture,
I believe your definition of vaporware is vapocabulary.
Okay like i said before vaporware has been used on games that released.
But i forgot DF doesnt fall under the same rules as other games. Vaporware and releasing have nothing to do with each other, it hasnt for a awhile now. Maybe years and years ago it did. But words change like i was trying to explain to dictionary man.
Words evovle. Ill say it again Words Evolve. Its not like Im saying lets change the word just for DF, its been changed before DF.
Vaporware is a insult used on games that are in dev a long time and what was new become old and outdated. But whatever guys you two will just have to wait till wiki sites and dictionarys update before you catch up but probaly by then vaporware will be vaporware. The new word will be Darkfail. We got failcom and Darkfail.
[..]
I can purchase it.
[..]
Only if your the fastest F5 hitter in the west.
I do agree that conventional wording like "release" or "vapourware" have come about by normal general public releases or lack there of. DF is consistently anything but conventional or even anything like normality. I am afriad to think what other companies watching this fiasco are thinking. SOE might be preparing the "how far we can push the fanbase" tactic as we speak... thanks AV !
As much as the game might suck, it isn't vapourware. I did release, kind of. DF needs a new phrase coined. How about "near-vapourware", as they released a shell of what was promised to a select few buyers.
Okay like i said before vaporware has been used on games that released.
But i forgot DF doesnt fall under the same rules as other games. Vaporware and releasing have nothing to do with each other, it hasnt for a awhile now. Maybe years and years ago it did. But words change like i was trying to explain to dictionary man.
Words evovle. Ill say it again Words Evolve. Its not like Im saying lets change the word just for DF, its been changed before DF.
Vaporware is a insult used on games that are in dev a long time and what was new become old and outdated. But whatever guys you two will just have to wait till wiki sites and dictionarys update before you catch up but probaly by then vaporware will be vaporware. The new word will be Darkfail. We got failcom and Darkfail.
[..]
I can purchase it.
[..]
Only if your the fastest F5 hitter in the west.
I do agree that conventional wording like "release" or "vapourware" have come about by normal general public releases or lack there of. DF is consistently anything but conventional or even anything like normality.
I am afriad to think what other companies watching this fiasco are thinking. SOE might be preparing the "how far we can push the fanbase" tactic as we speak... thanks AV !
I knew someone would make some comment about one small part of my post.
As to Aventurine giving SOE bad ideas...I disagree completely.
Soe and EA have enough bad ideas without anyone elses help.
When discussing DF, what comes to my mind is, why didnt any other company make a FFA game.
Of all the bad ideas that SOE or EA had ruining games and whatnot...they never made a FFA game. Which turns out to be not such a bad idea. GO figure.
what a crock, it's exactly what was discussed (Av has never 'promised' anything).
the problem is that idiots can't/won't read. classic case in point:
tasos said: "Our hope for Darkfall is that you won't spend a
cent on the game until you've tried it and decided you want to play it. "
which idiots, still to this day, interpreted as:
"we 100% promise to offer a free trial before buying"
since when does 'hope' become 'promise'? there are dozens of other examples of idiots not reading & taking shit out of context.
DF is fine. sure it has a bunch of teething issues that *every* first-time MMO developer (including blizz & others) goes through with their first MMO, but vapourware? what a crock.
Hey Javac, you are wrong. Here you go.. Now.. be quiet, fan boy.
Darkfall places no restrictions on player interaction, so there are no developer imposed safe zones, no realms, factions, PvP zones, or any other roadblocks that limit your game. Anyone can fight anyone, anywhere as long as they are willing to face the consequences - in the form of Darkfall?s alignment system.
And next up, I'm especially excited for the e-sport like events..
Test your mettle in Darkfall?s Arena Events where individual players and teams compete for fun and profit.
Currently playing Real Life..
http://i36.tinypic.com/2uyod3k.gif
For all your stalking needs..
http://www.plurk.com/Random_
No, there are a lot of posts on this forum by people who played either the beta or the release (difference?) who are disappointed. So much so that they sell their account (in case they bought the release).
Hey, Remember when that guy tried to tell me vaporware meant something other then what it meant? That was crazy....
If DF folds before a NA server release, and doesn't stay around I wouldn't be surprised to see it fall under the vaporware category.
If DF folds before a NA server release, and doesn't stay around I wouldn't be surprised to see it fall under the vaporware category.
For DF to fall under the vaporware category you would have to go back in time and kill off the devs.
Nows its screaming towards abandonware like a rocket from hell.
I'm Awesome, Deal With It.
I actually like that.
Is that you in the picture?
That hair is sweet!
I never thought Darkfall would be vaporware per se, though I think a smarter company would have cut their losses two years ago. I did say, and so far seem to be proven right, that it would fall far short of expectations. If what you were expecting was a giant Quake level where all there is to do is run around and randomly attack people in giant, pointless, combat, with "full loot" meaning the exciting seizure of low-level items from people who have stockpiles of dozens, then, yes, your expectations were met. If you were expecting a return to the ideal (never actually met) of UO, of an actual world with roles besides "Psycho killer" and characters beyond "Uber flavor of the week" skill sets, then, your expectations were NOT met, and are very unlikely to be.
I remember reading this back in April '08:
"Darkfall is feature complete and we're doing beta testing using professional testers as we've said before."
"Based on the above {AI testing scheme}, it's conceivable that we may be further along in development than several games in beta, or with announced release dates"
"We welcome the "too good to be true" or the "Darkfall promises everything" ranting about Darkfall because we're in a position to know that we'll offer more than we promise. If we're going to be called anything right before we come out, "too good to be true" is about as good as it gets."
www.warcry.com/articles/view/devjournals/darkfalljournals/3570-Darkfall-Dev-Journal-25-Philosophy.2
It's at least good for a laugh knowing what we all know now.
MMO Strategy Guides
Whether I play or not, meh, doesnt really matter.
BUT, financially will this game do well enough to at least catch the eye of better developers with more capital?
I hope so.
Because, more ffa mmos= More Attempts= better chance to get at least one truly special game.
Remember when they said they were reducing the amount of NPC's because they take up space for real players. NPC's must be in Queing, same goes with the mob's I guess.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Darkfall AI is so awesome that when you kill a goblin scout, it will say:
"Hey! No fair! I was lagging"
Yep, that would be me. ( Fiance makes the hair for me )
I'm Awesome, Deal With It.