I agree with the OP. Unlike some of the people who have replied, I think it SHOULD take less time to achieve things in DF. The longer the grind, the more you cater to macroers. The more dull the system (harvesting skills, anyone), the more attractive you are to macroers. Progression is one of the largest issues in the game. They need to shorten magic and some crafting (tailoring) grinds, and they need to lower the soft cap... I want to see real specialization in Darkfall. Ofc, there needs to be a warning ingame when you get halfway towards reaching the soft cap, another warning at 3/4s, etc. so you can choose your skills wisely.
Dude, the game is hardcore. If you can't handle it, maybe you should go play WoW?
I agree with the OP. Unlike some of the people who have replied, I think it SHOULD take less time to achieve things in DF. The longer the grind, the more you cater to macroers. The more dull the system (harvesting skills, anyone), the more attractive you are to macroers. Progression is one of the largest issues in the game. They need to shorten magic and some crafting (tailoring) grinds, and they need to lower the soft cap... I want to see real specialization in Darkfall. Ofc, there needs to be a warning ingame when you get halfway towards reaching the soft cap, another warning at 3/4s, etc. so you can choose your skills wisely.
Dude, the game is hardcore. If you can't handle it, maybe you should go play WoW?
lol so lets say if i make a game and purposely make your level to increase by 0.01% for every 1000mobs you killed. Its hardcore then? Woooo you are sooo hardcore. more like silly.
I agree with the OP. Unlike some of the people who have replied, I think it SHOULD take less time to achieve things in DF. The longer the grind, the more you cater to macroers. The more dull the system (harvesting skills, anyone), the more attractive you are to macroers. Progression is one of the largest issues in the game. They need to shorten magic and some crafting (tailoring) grinds, and they need to lower the soft cap... I want to see real specialization in Darkfall. Ofc, there needs to be a warning ingame when you get halfway towards reaching the soft cap, another warning at 3/4s, etc. so you can choose your skills wisely.
Dude, the game is hardcore. If you can't handle it, maybe you should go play WoW?
lol so lets say if i make a game and purposely make your level to increase by 0.01% for every 1000mobs you killed. Its hardcore then? Woooo you are sooo hardcore. more like silly.
I agree with the OP. Unlike some of the people who have replied, I think it SHOULD take less time to achieve things in DF. The longer the grind, the more you cater to macroers. The more dull the system (harvesting skills, anyone), the more attractive you are to macroers. Progression is one of the largest issues in the game. They need to shorten magic and some crafting (tailoring) grinds, and they need to lower the soft cap... I want to see real specialization in Darkfall. Ofc, there needs to be a warning ingame when you get halfway towards reaching the soft cap, another warning at 3/4s, etc. so you can choose your skills wisely.
Dude, the game is hardcore. If you can't handle it, maybe you should go play WoW?
lol so lets say if i make a game and purposely make your level to increase by 0.01% for every 1000mobs you killed. Its hardcore then? Woooo you are sooo hardcore. more like silly.
Hardcore. Sorry, you should go back to WoW.
As I tell my Soldiers, there's a fine line between hardcore and stupid. It's best to learn not to cross it. To the "old schoolers" (UO, EQ1, etc), time spent in mundane time sink activities = hardcore. Wasting time in such a game became a virtue. In many of the old school games, time sinks = content. As an example, many of the games had really slow travel, which prolonged total playtime without the game company having to provide entertaining content to fill that time. Making players spend more time traveling, doing administrative and mundane tasks and the like, effectively WAS a large part of the content of the game. You were more "hardcore" if you subjected yourself to more of these boring activities than the other players. Many, many people seem to want to AFK-macro their time away in DF, instead of actually playing it, to improve their character. To me, that speaks volumes about how fun to the journey to the destination is. AV should probably reexamine it.
As I tell my Soldiers, there's a fine line between hardcore and stupid. It's best to learn not to cross it.
To the "old schoolers" (UO, EQ1, etc), time spent in mundane time sink activities = hardcore. Wasting time in such a game became a virtue.
I think any old school UOer would disagree quite strongly with that. 'Hardcore' was taking that supremely accurate broadsword of vanquishing into PvP while you were red. 'Hardcore' was PvPing when you knew death meant a 30% hit across the board to your stats and skills. I doubt you'd find a single old school UO player that would say the hours spent sparring to raise parry or the time spent macroing flamestrike on themselves in the Abbey had anything to do with 'hardcore.'
"As an example, many of the games had really slow travel, which prolonged total playtime without the game company having to provide entertaining content to fill that time."
Many? There was UO, EQ, DAoC, and Asheron's Call. UO allowed you to recall to the exact spot you wanted to and the limit of marked runes you could recall directly to was limited only by your carrying capacity. Asheron's Call had 'Subway' which was a central location of portals around the game world and has a movement speed that is still considered 'turbo' compared to any MMO currently out just short of vehicular movement. That leaves EQ and DAoC.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
As I tell my Soldiers, there's a fine line between hardcore and stupid. It's best to learn not to cross it. To the "old schoolers" (UO, EQ1, etc), time spent in mundane time sink activities = hardcore. Wasting time in such a game became a virtue.
I think any old school UOer would disagree quite strongly with that. 'Hardcore' was taking that supremely accurate broadsword of vanquishing into PvP while you were red. 'Hardcore' was PvPing when you knew death meant a 30% hit across the board to your stats and skills. I doubt you'd find a single old school UO player that would say the hours spent sparring to raise parry or the time spent macroing flamestrike on themselves in the Abbey had anything to do with 'hardcore.'
And yet, there is no commensurate penalty in DF for death - so far it's just equipment loss. Is that "hardcore"?
As I tell my Soldiers, there's a fine line between hardcore and stupid. It's best to learn not to cross it.
To the "old schoolers" (UO, EQ1, etc), time spent in mundane time sink activities = hardcore. Wasting time in such a game became a virtue.
I think any old school UOer would disagree quite strongly with that. 'Hardcore' was taking that supremely accurate broadsword of vanquishing into PvP while you were red. 'Hardcore' was PvPing when you knew death meant a 30% hit across the board to your stats and skills. I doubt you'd find a single old school UO player that would say the hours spent sparring to raise parry or the time spent macroing flamestrike on themselves in the Abbey had anything to do with 'hardcore.'
And yet, there is no commensurate penalty in DF for death - so far it's just equipment loss. Is that "hardcore"?
Being butt naked at a foreign town and having to fend off the enemy until being able to re-equip isn't a penalty? LOL! Your average DikuMMO-weened gamer would crap a brick if they dropped a single item on death, let alone everything.
Is it 'hardcore'? Who knows. Personally, I don't care for the term. Is it a higher risk factor? Definitely. Does it require preparation and planning before you go into battle? Certainly.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
To put it simply; it's not a game design flaw, it's a player mentality flaw.
What a Mmorpg truly is, is not for your play style game desire.
What you need is console games online
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.
This is interesting. Developing an OARPG under the psuedonym Project Vex, I plan to have skills that develop through use. The intention is not to cause players to grind them out repeatedly, but to allow players to gradually increase in skill as they play.
This is a serious issue for skills that develop through use. Other games, such as World of Lamecraft have had skills that increased as they were used, but you don't really see players grinding them out...
Where did Darkfall go wrong where World of Lamecraft did not, and what can be done to fix this (from a developers standpoint, not specifically for Darkfall)?
Where one went wrong or one went right is personal subjectivity.
WoW caters to the "fast" intsa gratification types...
For over 10 years I've seen thousands of complaints like the op and all I can say is that Mmorpg's are not for them.
It's the state of mind of the players.
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.
Oh MMORPG fans, what has happened to us? We have been so spoiled with carebear games and easy to play games that we all forgot how a grind was normal on some of the best MMO's ever released. Why does everyone want the game to be so easy and achievable? I remember the days of UO where you had to tame all day to get a few more % into your skill and it went up in .1 increments, just to get a white dragon tamed so you could have a pet or get a mare. Everyone complains about the grind, what has happened to the pride of having a bad ass account that you worked your ass off for. I personally don't like grinding either, but I remember the days where being legendary in your skill was something to be proud of, now everyone wants it in a few weeks of playing. Say what you will, but everyone who knows what I am talking about, knows the truth!
Because some of us are not 20 anymore. Because our wifes and kids call us for things when we are playing, because there is a mortage and bills to pay, bosses wanting us to put more and more work hours ... you name it.... in short because WE GOT OLDER andthe pace of life changed dramatically over the last 3-5 years for most of the audience/player base of this kind of games.
Truth is if I was able to displace my familiar and professional envinronment in time, backwards ofc, to the "great times" where I played UO,AC; SWG, well even early wow with r14 grinding, truth would be I would have quited all those games in a short amount of time,since with all the responsabilities of today, I would have achieved nothing there.
Yes frig we grew up and our writs can take teh strain of carpal tunnel.
To put it simply; it's not a game design flaw, it's a player mentality flaw. What a Mmorpg truly is, is not for your play style game desire. What you need is console games online
No its a game design flaw. Players shouldn't feel the need to level up their skills with macroing.
Successful grind means all but the most critical of people won't notice they're grinding because they're having too much fun, or the grinding is worth it. You wake up and go to work almost every day, you're grinding. Well, not if you love your job. Sure, it still might feel like a grind some days, but the majority of the time, you won't think "Damn, I still have to come back tomorrow...!"
Grinding is unavoidable in a game based on numbers. It's hard to avoid in any game where you do the same thing over and over - only factor is how well the game mechanics disguise it and how fun it is.
If you gave everyone 100 skill, or made it so you could ONLY level up skills through pvp, then a lot of the mundane things would be gone and people could actually engage in the FUN things the game offers.
I've come to refer to that as "The game getting in its own way".
Here's an example...
Lineage 2 had this for a long time... that game definitely got in its own way.
The tedium of just about everything in L2 only slowed players down from getting to the actual core of the game: inter-clan wars, castle and fortress sieges, open PvP, etc. etc.
In order to be competitive, you had to have good gear. In order to have good gear, you had to craft them, or hope for them as full drops. If you crafted them then you had to grind for the mats, or grind for the money to buy the mats from the farmers who did it 24/7. Then, assuming the crafts didn't fail, you get the full gear, you have to enchant it... If you have a weapon, you want it to +4 (at least) so you unlock its extra stats. Going to +4 carried a chance of failure, in which case the weapon "blew up" and you ended up with a pile of crystals... putting you back at square one... And let's not forget the looooooong grind to get to the upper levels (at the higher levels in L2, you need 10 kills of equal level to get .01% xp toward your level).
All that time and grind just to get to do the things the game was centered around in the first place.
NCSoft seems to have realized this and have been making changes to the game to make L2, as they put it in a behind-the-scenes vid, "less work, more fun".
Or, in other words... through their changes, the game doesn't get in its own way nearly as much anymore. 'course.. it's probably too little too late.. Many of the changes they're making to L2 should have been made a long time ago.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
To put it simply; it's not a game design flaw, it's a player mentality flaw. What a Mmorpg truly is, is not for your play style game desire. What you need is console games online
No its a game design flaw. Players shouldn't feel the need to level up their skills with macroing.
Players should cheat in video games? This is not a design flaw, this is a player flaw.
I am having a great time playing Darkfall and I do not macro. Those that do and complain about the "grind" simply have flawed ethics.
I have played DF pretty hardcore for the past few weeks and while I enjoy many aspects of the game, I have come to realize that around 90% of myself and my whole guild's play time is spent macroing up. 90% you say? So you ACTUALLY took all the time you've played, along with your guild's time played, and divided it by how much you macroed? I think not...
In fact the only thing that cannot be achieved by macroing is combat. The system is certainly refreshing compared to most recent turn based mmos, but you really cannot do anything other than 1 click basic meele swing, or archery unless you grind magic for weeks and weeks, only to fire a simple fireball or whatever element you go for. A fact you say? Regardless of the FACT that my sister in law, whom is the only one in our family who has been lucky enough to purchase DF so far, got her magic from 11 to 100 + 42 GM in a little under a week from just pvping and killing mobs...WITHOUT macroing? I think your macro is failing you sir.
There are no meele skills that cause dots, roots, debuffs or anything other then basic dammage, and aside from aiming, archery has nothing special. If you want to do anything more than the basics, you have to sit there casting spells for hours and hours waiting for your mana bar to refill. So the fact that we DON'T want cheesy effects on our melee abilities like those found in WoW or WAR, that have no real impact other than making you THINK your melee attacks are anymore special than the other, is a bad thing? Also, what's this about "hours" for your mana bar to refill? I sat there and watched Lucy play for over 3hours last saturday and she never had to wait even a FRACTION of that time for her mana to refill.
Then there are the reagents which is another massive grind as it takes thousands to get anything good. Massive grind you say. THOUSANDS of resources to get anything good you say. Have you ever played Dark Age of Camelot, where you spend weeks if not months getting your crafting skills high enough to actually matter? I'd rather it take me months to get my crafting LGM'ed (legendary grand mastered) and ACTUALLY make useful things with my time, rather than spending 3 days to LGM a trade and have it be ABSOLUTELY flippin worthless when mobs/quests start dropping nicer crap than we can make.
Crafting is another massive grind (I have 75 armor smith, 50 tailoring, 100 mining, 100 mining mastery) and really only serves to help yourself since the only economy to speak of is for mats and reagents to supply the macroers. See above, also the game is not even a month old and you're expecting a shining economy? Not to mention the fact there is no bazaar for you "new agers" to use. Heck, back in my day (EQ) we used specific well known zone locations as merchant hubs to sell/buy goods, and ACTUALLY ineracting with OTHER players rather than their NPC mockups or text based auctions.
No one has any incentive to buy anything from crafters since you might as well craft yourself since you gain stats, money is better spent investing in your own ability to recup your losses, and there is nothing better to do when your solo since farming weak spawns endlessly is somewhat dangerous and boring. Have you actually tried to sell something to another player? If you have, maybe you just aren't giving your would-be customers the incentive they require to buy from you? Are you selling for too much? Are you not selling enough? Are you not around frequent enough to craft/sell to customers? This isn't WoW, AoC, or WAR....expect some actual incentive on YOUR part to help an economy emerge.
The best thing the game has going for it right out of gate is the more skilled, yet extremely basic meele and archery. If you want to do anything cool like magic, crafting or city building, be prepared to spend THOUSANDS of hours most likely macroing since hardly anyone would waste their time actually clicking. As it should be, without the macroing part! You want everything handed to you without work? I'm all for everything NOT being a massive immensive, unintellectually interested grind, however I can't stand by while people complain about the GOOD crap being too hard to obtain so not EVERYONE has EVERYTHING all the time!
The more skillful combat, open pvp, and full loot is fun for a time and certainly refreshing for the genre. The problem is that everything thing else is an even worse grind than any mmo I've played since the only way for most people to even acomplish it is through countless hours of afk macroing. And thats only going to get you the most basic spells. Have you ever not macro'ed in NineDragons? I went from level 54 to 55 in 32hours of straight grinding of quests/npcs. THAT game is the MOST grind intensive I have EVER seen in all my years of MMO gaming. Oh, and btw there are upwards of 140++ levels in that game.
The very fact alone that someone who afk macros for 10 days will be able to do cooler stuff than someone who plays less, but legit is just sad. The funny thing is that the guy who macros all day will even brag about how good his skills are and the sad thing is that the gameplay encourages this. Then perhaps that is the error of macros? Hence their legalicy in MMO gaming taking all the hardwork and earnage from other players. Sounds to me like this is the best case of all on why macroers should be perma-banned from every MMO.
I actually feel bad for the people who will eventually have the level 100 skills in elements and higher schools of magic becuase I know how much money they will have paid adventuring in order to afk macro in their world. $15.00USD after their free month gives out?
Why anyone would actually pay a company to let the computer play the game for them for 90% of their playtime is something I just cannot seem to grasp. God forbid I actually want to be entertained for the entire time that I am logged in. Again, you're bagging on OTHER macroers, and 90% again you say? You've actually compiled an XML spreadsheet of hundreds of other customers whom are macroing and divided the time they've played by how much they've macroed agains total time? Albeit that formulai is simply for conjecture, and not actual function...but you get my point no? If the game said in the FAQ: Q:"Is this game for macro users?" A:"Yes" Then I would agree about your frustration over macroing being the ONLY way, however that's not the case here now is it?
I almost miss AOE grinding on mobs and quest farming to improve my abilities because at least those tasks require me to be at my screen and engage my mind. Perhaps "almost" isn't the word you should be using here sir?
I wish they would just give everyone 100 in every combat and spell skill so that people can focus on the good things darkfall has - sandbox pvp and city attack and defense. Instead most people seem to prefer grinding out every skill of every tree in order to unlock the next skill grind in the next tree. Taking away ANY real accomplishment within Darkfall, and making everyone feel EXACTLY the same COMPLETELY removing ANY sandbox elements within the game? Yea, sure...let's do that shall we?
In my eyes the grind that darkfall requires is something much worse than anything that has been released recently. The only reason why we haven't seen more complaints is because most of the people in the game are hardcore fans since even getting into the game is a grind of its own. Or perhaps the reason why we haven't seen many complaints on this issue is because there is no issue? This isn't military science here (if you've been in the military, you know what I mean) where if something isn't being reported there must be a HORENDOUS(sp?) issue.
All in all, I believe you need to reobjectify your position on issues related to Darkfall. I've seen this very same thread composition in nearly EVERY mmo to day, ranging from WoW all the way to Nine Dragons. You've presented no substantial arguement as to any real issue with Darkfall's skill system.
LOL, you haven't even played the thing and have such an extensive opinion? Your condition is called fanboyism and will be cured once you buy Darkfall and see the mess for yourself.
Oh MMORPG fans, what has happened to us? We have been so spoiled with carebear games and easy to play games that we all forgot how a grind was normal on some of the best MMO's ever released. Why does everyone want the game to be so easy and achievable? I remember the days of UO where you had to tame all day to get a few more % into your skill and it went up in .1 increments, just to get a white dragon tamed so you could have a pet or get a mare. Everyone complains about the grind, what has happened to the pride of having a bad ass account that you worked your ass off for. I personally don't like grinding either, but I remember the days where being legendary in your skill was something to be proud of, now everyone wants it in a few weeks of playing. Say what you will, but everyone who knows what I am talking about, knows the truth!
Because some of us are not 20 anymore. Because our wifes and kids call us for things when we are playing, because there is a mortage and bills to pay, bosses wanting us to put more and more work hours ... you name it.... in short because WE GOT OLDER andthe pace of life changed dramatically over the last 3-5 years for most of the audience/player base of this kind of games.
Truth is if I was able to displace my familiar and professional envinronment in time, backwards ofc, to the "great times" where I played UO,AC; SWG, well even early wow with r14 grinding, truth would be I would have quited all those games in a short amount of time,since with all the responsabilities of today, I would have achieved nothing there.
I have next to no time to play the game, but I have yet to run into a grind at all. While I'm completing quests, killing monsters, or fighting other players, my skills are going up as I use them. I don't sit there and fire at a tree all day, if you want to, sure that's your freedom, but no one is forcing you. If you are bored of firing at said tree, you have no one but yourself to blame... beauty of a sandbox MMO.
To put it simply; it's not a game design flaw, it's a player mentality flaw. What a Mmorpg truly is, is not for your play style game desire. What you need is console games online
No its a game design flaw. Players shouldn't feel the need to level up their skills with macroing.
Players should cheat in video games? This is not a design flaw, this is a player flaw.
I am having a great time playing Darkfall and I do not macro. Those that do and complain about the "grind" simply have flawed ethics.
This. People have been brainwashed by WoW too long they think there is some kind of race to the "end game".
To put it simply; it's not a game design flaw, it's a player mentality flaw. What a Mmorpg truly is, is not for your play style game desire. What you need is console games online
It is a game design flaw. Anyone with half a brain on that dev team would have seen this coming and simply made it impossible to macro-skill. Especially since beta testers were telling them these exact things, not to mention the issue had been brought up time and again over the years before beta and release, both here and on Forumfall. Of course, as we've all witnessed with Tasos, perhaps half a brain was too much to ask for.
Edit: Next time Tasos spouts off about having played UO, remember to tell him he's either an idiot, a liar, or both. Because if he ever played UO, he damn well would have seen this coming unless he was totally braindead.
To put it simply; it's not a game design flaw, it's a player mentality flaw. What a Mmorpg truly is, is not for your play style game desire. What you need is console games online
No its a game design flaw. Players shouldn't feel the need to level up their skills with macroing.
Players should cheat in video games? This is not a design flaw, this is a player flaw.
I am having a great time playing Darkfall and I do not macro. Those that do and complain about the "grind" simply have flawed ethics.
I blame the game for "allowing" the macroing in the first place. It's the game that's allowing the so-called "flawed ethics".
To put it simply; it's not a game design flaw, it's a player mentality flaw. What a Mmorpg truly is, is not for your play style game desire. What you need is console games online
No its a game design flaw. Players shouldn't feel the need to level up their skills with macroing.
Players should cheat in video games? This is not a design flaw, this is a player flaw.
I am having a great time playing Darkfall and I do not macro. Those that do and complain about the "grind" simply have flawed ethics.
I blame the game for "allowing" the macroing in the first place. It's the game that's allowing the so-called "flawed ethics".
You obviously do not understand the meaning of the word ethics.
To put it simply; it's not a game design flaw, it's a player mentality flaw. What a Mmorpg truly is, is not for your play style game desire. What you need is console games online
No its a game design flaw. Players shouldn't feel the need to level up their skills with macroing.
Players should cheat in video games? This is not a design flaw, this is a player flaw.
I am having a great time playing Darkfall and I do not macro. Those that do and complain about the "grind" simply have flawed ethics.
I blame the game for "allowing" the macroing in the first place. It's the game that's allowing the so-called "flawed ethics".
You obviously do not understand the meaning of the word ethics.
Robertb is right. If there were no police in RL, people with ethics wouldn't kill, steal, and run amok. Many people would though.
That is the situation in DF, those that choose to cheat do so at will presumably.
To put it simply; it's not a game design flaw, it's a player mentality flaw. What a Mmorpg truly is, is not for your play style game desire. What you need is console games online
This is the prime example of what has been posted by someone else about "DF Fanbois would have taken anything", thats not how it works, if they didnt want ppl macroing they dont leave the means for ppl to use it in game and "hope for the best" this is just another proof of how amateurish this company actually is, its like having a button called "GM Powers" in game where everyone can do everything, then everyone and their dog is going to use it when everything is screwed up blame it on the player base, "Player Mentality flaw".... yeah right buddy... keep telling yourself that.
People will always want to be the best, the guy posting just above me that "doesnt really care" is just a small minority he is not the guy who is gonna be running a city, the same argument can be used for games like "WoW" where I have workmates playing it that since TBC have yet to reach level 60, for them the game is an unending journey, they enjoy the quests and whatever they do at lvl 50, MMOs are all about bragging rights and people will always race to the end to be the "best", and people will use whatever means at their disposal to achieve it, if the company didnt want them leveling their skills one way or another they should have put the facilities in place to stop it, this game is just unfinished and untested and even comparing it to the jewel UO pre-trammel was, might as well go spit on the Mona Lisa and call Da Vinci a retard.
Comments
Dude, the game is hardcore. If you can't handle it, maybe you should go play WoW?
Dude, the game is hardcore. If you can't handle it, maybe you should go play WoW?
lol so lets say if i make a game and purposely make your level to increase by 0.01% for every 1000mobs you killed. Its hardcore then? Woooo you are sooo hardcore. more like silly.
Dude, the game is hardcore. If you can't handle it, maybe you should go play WoW?
lol so lets say if i make a game and purposely make your level to increase by 0.01% for every 1000mobs you killed. Its hardcore then? Woooo you are sooo hardcore. more like silly.
Hardcore. Sorry, you should go back to WoW.
As I tell my Soldiers, there's a fine line between hardcore and stupid. It's best to learn not to cross it.
To the "old schoolers" (UO, EQ1, etc), time spent in mundane time sink activities = hardcore. Wasting time in such a game became a virtue.
In many of the old school games, time sinks = content. As an example, many of the games had really slow travel, which prolonged total playtime without the game company having to provide entertaining content to fill that time. Making players spend more time traveling, doing administrative and mundane tasks and the like, effectively WAS a large part of the content of the game. You were more "hardcore" if you subjected yourself to more of these boring activities than the other players.
Many, many people seem to want to AFK-macro their time away in DF, instead of actually playing it, to improve their character. To me, that speaks volumes about how fun to the journey to the destination is. AV should probably reexamine it.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
I think any old school UOer would disagree quite strongly with that. 'Hardcore' was taking that supremely accurate broadsword of vanquishing into PvP while you were red. 'Hardcore' was PvPing when you knew death meant a 30% hit across the board to your stats and skills. I doubt you'd find a single old school UO player that would say the hours spent sparring to raise parry or the time spent macroing flamestrike on themselves in the Abbey had anything to do with 'hardcore.'
"As an example, many of the games had really slow travel, which prolonged total playtime without the game company having to provide entertaining content to fill that time."
Many? There was UO, EQ, DAoC, and Asheron's Call. UO allowed you to recall to the exact spot you wanted to and the limit of marked runes you could recall directly to was limited only by your carrying capacity. Asheron's Call had 'Subway' which was a central location of portals around the game world and has a movement speed that is still considered 'turbo' compared to any MMO currently out just short of vehicular movement. That leaves EQ and DAoC.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
And yet, there is no commensurate penalty in DF for death - so far it's just equipment loss. Is that "hardcore"?
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
I think any old school UOer would disagree quite strongly with that. 'Hardcore' was taking that supremely accurate broadsword of vanquishing into PvP while you were red. 'Hardcore' was PvPing when you knew death meant a 30% hit across the board to your stats and skills. I doubt you'd find a single old school UO player that would say the hours spent sparring to raise parry or the time spent macroing flamestrike on themselves in the Abbey had anything to do with 'hardcore.'
And yet, there is no commensurate penalty in DF for death - so far it's just equipment loss. Is that "hardcore"?
Being butt naked at a foreign town and having to fend off the enemy until being able to re-equip isn't a penalty? LOL! Your average DikuMMO-weened gamer would crap a brick if they dropped a single item on death, let alone everything.
Is it 'hardcore'? Who knows. Personally, I don't care for the term. Is it a higher risk factor? Definitely. Does it require preparation and planning before you go into battle? Certainly.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Even the fanbots will realise the truth eventually. Macro's ftw...obviously unattended you arent going to watch macro running for 18 hours at a time.
In Tasos' most recent update, he stated that AV is going to attack the macro issue at its source. That change should be interesting.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
To put it simply; it's not a game design flaw, it's a player mentality flaw.
What a Mmorpg truly is, is not for your play style game desire.
What you need is console games online
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.
Where one went wrong or one went right is personal subjectivity.
WoW caters to the "fast" intsa gratification types...
For over 10 years I've seen thousands of complaints like the op and all I can say is that Mmorpg's are not for them.
It's the state of mind of the players.
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.
Because some of us are not 20 anymore. Because our wifes and kids call us for things when we are playing, because there is a mortage and bills to pay, bosses wanting us to put more and more work hours ... you name it.... in short because WE GOT OLDER andthe pace of life changed dramatically over the last 3-5 years for most of the audience/player base of this kind of games.
Truth is if I was able to displace my familiar and professional envinronment in time, backwards ofc, to the "great times" where I played UO,AC; SWG, well even early wow with r14 grinding, truth would be I would have quited all those games in a short amount of time,since with all the responsabilities of today, I would have achieved nothing there.
Yes frig we grew up and our writs can take teh strain of carpal tunnel.
No its a game design flaw. Players shouldn't feel the need to level up their skills with macroing.
If you gave everyone 100 skill, or made it so you could ONLY level up skills through pvp, then a lot of the mundane things would be gone and people could actually engage in the FUN things the game offers.
I've come to refer to that as "The game getting in its own way".
Here's an example...
Lineage 2 had this for a long time... that game definitely got in its own way.
The tedium of just about everything in L2 only slowed players down from getting to the actual core of the game: inter-clan wars, castle and fortress sieges, open PvP, etc. etc.
In order to be competitive, you had to have good gear. In order to have good gear, you had to craft them, or hope for them as full drops. If you crafted them then you had to grind for the mats, or grind for the money to buy the mats from the farmers who did it 24/7. Then, assuming the crafts didn't fail, you get the full gear, you have to enchant it... If you have a weapon, you want it to +4 (at least) so you unlock its extra stats. Going to +4 carried a chance of failure, in which case the weapon "blew up" and you ended up with a pile of crystals... putting you back at square one... And let's not forget the looooooong grind to get to the upper levels (at the higher levels in L2, you need 10 kills of equal level to get .01% xp toward your level).
All that time and grind just to get to do the things the game was centered around in the first place.
NCSoft seems to have realized this and have been making changes to the game to make L2, as they put it in a behind-the-scenes vid, "less work, more fun".
Or, in other words... through their changes, the game doesn't get in its own way nearly as much anymore. 'course.. it's probably too little too late.. Many of the changes they're making to L2 should have been made a long time ago.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
No its a game design flaw. Players shouldn't feel the need to level up their skills with macroing.
Players should cheat in video games? This is not a design flaw, this is a player flaw.
I am having a great time playing Darkfall and I do not macro. Those that do and complain about the "grind" simply have flawed ethics.
All in all, I believe you need to reobjectify your position on issues related to Darkfall. I've seen this very same thread composition in nearly EVERY mmo to day, ranging from WoW all the way to Nine Dragons. You've presented no substantial arguement as to any real issue with Darkfall's skill system.
LOL, you haven't even played the thing and have such an extensive opinion? Your condition is called fanboyism and will be cured once you buy Darkfall and see the mess for yourself.
Because some of us are not 20 anymore. Because our wifes and kids call us for things when we are playing, because there is a mortage and bills to pay, bosses wanting us to put more and more work hours ... you name it.... in short because WE GOT OLDER andthe pace of life changed dramatically over the last 3-5 years for most of the audience/player base of this kind of games.
Truth is if I was able to displace my familiar and professional envinronment in time, backwards ofc, to the "great times" where I played UO,AC; SWG, well even early wow with r14 grinding, truth would be I would have quited all those games in a short amount of time,since with all the responsabilities of today, I would have achieved nothing there.
I have next to no time to play the game, but I have yet to run into a grind at all. While I'm completing quests, killing monsters, or fighting other players, my skills are going up as I use them. I don't sit there and fire at a tree all day, if you want to, sure that's your freedom, but no one is forcing you. If you are bored of firing at said tree, you have no one but yourself to blame... beauty of a sandbox MMO.
Darkfall Travelogues!
No its a game design flaw. Players shouldn't feel the need to level up their skills with macroing.
Players should cheat in video games? This is not a design flaw, this is a player flaw.
I am having a great time playing Darkfall and I do not macro. Those that do and complain about the "grind" simply have flawed ethics.
This. People have been brainwashed by WoW too long they think there is some kind of race to the "end game".
Darkfall Travelogues!
It is a game design flaw. Anyone with half a brain on that dev team would have seen this coming and simply made it impossible to macro-skill. Especially since beta testers were telling them these exact things, not to mention the issue had been brought up time and again over the years before beta and release, both here and on Forumfall. Of course, as we've all witnessed with Tasos, perhaps half a brain was too much to ask for.
Edit: Next time Tasos spouts off about having played UO, remember to tell him he's either an idiot, a liar, or both. Because if he ever played UO, he damn well would have seen this coming unless he was totally braindead.
No its a game design flaw. Players shouldn't feel the need to level up their skills with macroing.
Players should cheat in video games? This is not a design flaw, this is a player flaw.
I am having a great time playing Darkfall and I do not macro. Those that do and complain about the "grind" simply have flawed ethics.
I blame the game for "allowing" the macroing in the first place. It's the game that's allowing the so-called "flawed ethics".
this game rocks, so shut the clocks up!
Who could argue with an intelligent argument as this.
No its a game design flaw. Players shouldn't feel the need to level up their skills with macroing.
Players should cheat in video games? This is not a design flaw, this is a player flaw.
I am having a great time playing Darkfall and I do not macro. Those that do and complain about the "grind" simply have flawed ethics.
I blame the game for "allowing" the macroing in the first place. It's the game that's allowing the so-called "flawed ethics".
You obviously do not understand the meaning of the word ethics.
No its a game design flaw. Players shouldn't feel the need to level up their skills with macroing.
Players should cheat in video games? This is not a design flaw, this is a player flaw.
I am having a great time playing Darkfall and I do not macro. Those that do and complain about the "grind" simply have flawed ethics.
I blame the game for "allowing" the macroing in the first place. It's the game that's allowing the so-called "flawed ethics".
You obviously do not understand the meaning of the word ethics.
Robertb is right. If there were no police in RL, people with ethics wouldn't kill, steal, and run amok. Many people would though.
That is the situation in DF, those that choose to cheat do so at will presumably.
people that grind there char want to be good very fast what they lack in skill they try to make up in abilities and stats.
i am just playing the game. because i am playing the game my character developes in a way that reflects my game style.
is it a grind, nope sorry not a grind i get better at the thinks i am doing, and i am not skilling up skills i never use.
This is the prime example of what has been posted by someone else about "DF Fanbois would have taken anything", thats not how it works, if they didnt want ppl macroing they dont leave the means for ppl to use it in game and "hope for the best" this is just another proof of how amateurish this company actually is, its like having a button called "GM Powers" in game where everyone can do everything, then everyone and their dog is going to use it when everything is screwed up blame it on the player base, "Player Mentality flaw".... yeah right buddy... keep telling yourself that.
People will always want to be the best, the guy posting just above me that "doesnt really care" is just a small minority he is not the guy who is gonna be running a city, the same argument can be used for games like "WoW" where I have workmates playing it that since TBC have yet to reach level 60, for them the game is an unending journey, they enjoy the quests and whatever they do at lvl 50, MMOs are all about bragging rights and people will always race to the end to be the "best", and people will use whatever means at their disposal to achieve it, if the company didnt want them leveling their skills one way or another they should have put the facilities in place to stop it, this game is just unfinished and untested and even comparing it to the jewel UO pre-trammel was, might as well go spit on the Mona Lisa and call Da Vinci a retard.