Is there an MMORPG that doesn't use the silly Tank-Healer-DPS dynamic?

Drachasor

I think I am really started to get fed up with how every MMORPG seems to be focused on having Tanks who draw all agro, healers who just heal others, and then DPS. It just stretched believability to a breaking point, imho, and it also always causes problems when the tank or healer role isn't a lot of fun for most people (though I do have fun playing a tank at times, the whole thing seems crazy even when I do it).

Are there any MMORPGs that have broken with this convention? I'd imagine everyone would be able to take some abuse and there'd probably still be healing of some sort (without pigeon-holing anyone into the role of always healing). Probably have an interesting system for determining who attacks what.

 

Edit:  A lot of people seem to be completely misunderstanding what I am talking or about or unable to really conceive of a game that isn't married to the mechanics of theTank-Healer-DPS system (so they try to envision a game with the same threat mechanics or the like).  From my latest post (as of this edit) here is what I am talking about:

 

I'm not saying I don't want roles. I am not saying I wany everyone to do everything. Please my posts if you aren't getting this.

I AM saying I want everyone able to take damage. I am saying I hate the Aggro system that Tank-Healer-DPS implies. A system where the monsters always attack one guy (the tank), even though that doesn't make any sense. I dislike the reality break there.

Think of a fantasy movie or novel. You might have one guy position to take the initial brunt of the attacks, but everyone can defend themselves if they are attacked. Some people can heal, not everyone, but they don't churn out big heals constantly on one person. If one person gets into a tight spot, then a friend lends them a hand either with magic or steel so they aren't take down. A big dragon might breathe fire down on the heros, but one or two people have the capability of putting up a shield in response to that fire which will protect people. I want a game that does THAT, where the monsters act in a fairly realistic manner and the people can handle themselves to a degree but are even stronger as a group.

graffix_75

I'd say Eve online but then again, it does have your logistics/support roles but for me personally, it's a different experience from  your cookie cutter tank, heal,dps type mmo.

daylight01

There are a few games that dont use the set roles,1 that springs to mind is TCoS,although when I have played games like that people still seem to fall into a certain role...I guess they cant help themselves,or indeed you get into a group where everyone wants to tank/do damage and just look at each other as no-one heals.

It does work well with a guild/organised group when the group all multi task,though for pugs that does not come all that often.

Drachasor

Originally posted by daylight01


There are a few games that dont use the set roles,1 that springs to mind is TCoS,although when I have played games like that people still seem to fall into a certain role...I guess they cant help themselves,or indeed you get into a group where everyone wants to tank/do damage and just look at each other as no-one heals.
It does work well with a guild/organised group when the group all multi task,though for pugs that does not come all that often.

 

Well, I think you'd "ideally" have a few 'healer' classes that have moves with a healing side effect, and/or have heals that are on cooldowns.  Overall less healing, probably, so the people that do have the ability have to use it right.  However, because they don't have a lot of healing, they are usually doing dps.  Similarly, instead of "tanks" you could have everyone be a little tougher and then some class abilities that let you protect your comrades.  Kinda the same idea, but a very different feel.  Group composition would still matter to an extent of course.   Well, that's just what I am tossing around in my head at the moment, anyhow.

I'll check out TCoS.  I'm familiar with Eve, but kinda turned off given how a mistake can apparently cost you months of real time.  (That seems a bit much to me).

Ilvaldyr

There are quite a few that don't have the Tank+Healer+DPS trinity; but the problem with the them (at least in my experience) is that they lack structure to the point of group-combat just being mindless zergs filled with homogenised classes with identical capabilities.

No, the answer isn't to remove the trinity; it's to make all three roles equally enjoyable.

daylight01

 Well the thing is mate with regards to say TCoS players build there own skill deck(play as they want to play),so it comes down to the player,if they dont want to be a healer but a tank and dmg dealer how can you tell them it is wrong?

While it may sound good to get rid of the "holy trinity"it still needs open minded players to multi task,if you play a game of this type and you dont get healed you cant very well say to a player to play his "class" better as it is an open game and players are able to play how they feel.

Like I said in my 1st post this system works when you are with friends/guild and everyone knows to multi task and watch each others back but with pugs it is very difficult to balance,hell even in guilds it could be very hard.

merv808

Originally posted by Drachasor


I think I am really started to get fed up with how every MMORPG seems to be focused on having Tanks who draw all agro, healers who just heal others, and then DPS. It just stretched believability to a breaking point, imho, and it also always causes problems when the tank or healer role isn't a lot of fun for most people (though I do have fun playing a tank at times, the whole thing seems crazy even when I do it).
Are there any MMORPGs that have broken with this convention? I'd imagine everyone would be able to take some abuse and there'd probably still be healing of some sort (without pigeon-holing anyone into the role of always healing). Probably have an interesting system for determining who attacks what.

 

Play a game where the "trinity" doesn't exist, and you will quickly find out why specific combat roles are needed. It will always be a part of every successful game.

Keep in mind though, you can play any game however you want. So if you want to try to tackle the dungeon with a group of melee DDs, nothings stopping you, other than the fact that combat would be complete chaos and you'd end up trying to assign those roles to people anyway.

I've never minded the "trinity", to me its part of the role-playing.

Drachasor

Originally posted by merv808


Play a game where the "trinity" doesn't exist, and you will quickly find out why specific combat roles are needed. It will always be a part of every successful game.
Keep in mind though, you can play any game however you want. So if you want to try to tackle the dungeon with a group of melee DDs, nothings stopping you, other than the fact that combat would be complete chaos and you'd end up trying to assign those roles to people anyway.
I've never minded the "trinity", to me its part of the role-playing.

 

There's a world of difference between combot roles and the tank-healer-dps system.  A WORLD of difference.

daylight01

 I think a good example could be say WoW,lets say you go to do a 5 man run and have 5 druids in the group,say 2 dps druids 1 tank druid a main healing druid and 1 that can heal and dps,now you could do the instance with this group...

..on the other hand if you asked in chat "1 druid looking for 4 more druids for instance run" you could end up with 5 dps druids that wouldnt get past the 1st mob..but that is the same as asking some ppl in a game without the holy trinity to join a group.

Yes you may get the guys that want to multi task but in pugs it is impossible,a well organised group with something like TS would be a must.

merv808

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by merv808


Play a game where the "trinity" doesn't exist, and you will quickly find out why specific combat roles are needed. It will always be a part of every successful game.
Keep in mind though, you can play any game however you want. So if you want to try to tackle the dungeon with a group of melee DDs, nothings stopping you, other than the fact that combat would be complete chaos and you'd end up trying to assign those roles to people anyway.
I've never minded the "trinity", to me its part of the role-playing.

 

There's a world of difference between combot roles and the tank-healer-dps system.  A WORLD of difference.

 

tank-healer-dps are all combat roles are they not? I mean the game is the same for everyone outside of combat, with the exception of games with proffesions. Explain the difference...

Are you suggesting keeping combat roles, only making different ones??? if so, what would they be and how would they work

Drachasor

Originally posted by merv808

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by merv808


Play a game where the "trinity" doesn't exist, and you will quickly find out why specific combat roles are needed. It will always be a part of every successful game.
Keep in mind though, you can play any game however you want. So if you want to try to tackle the dungeon with a group of melee DDs, nothings stopping you, other than the fact that combat would be complete chaos and you'd end up trying to assign those roles to people anyway.
I've never minded the "trinity", to me its part of the role-playing.

 

There's a world of difference between combot roles and the tank-healer-dps system.  A WORLD of difference.

 

tank-healer-dps are all combat roles are they not? I mean the game is the same for everyone outside of combat, with the exception of games with proffesions. Explain the difference...

 

You act like having combat roles implies you have to go with a tank/healer/dps system.  That's simply not true.

To clarify my problem a bit, I really hate the aggro system that goes with a tank/heaer/dps game.  Everyone attacks the guy who can't deal damage and is hardest to kill?  No one attacks those healers or die really easy?  It's just a big reality break.  You can have combat roles like someone that protects the group (say with magic shields or whatever you want), and someone that provides combat support with some healing or the like, and not be a tank/healer/dps system at all.

kingfelix

I thought City of Heroes/Villains did a good job when it came to this. While some good DPS is never unwelcome, good crowd control and buffing/debuffing are far superior to the tanking/healing approach to things in that game.

merv808

Originally posted by kingfelix


I thought City of Heroes/Villains did a good job when it came to this. While some good DPS is never unwelcome, good crowd control and buffing/debuffing are far superior to the tanking/healing approach to things in that game.

 

...i don't really see the difference in the way CoH/CoV did it than any other game...you still have tankers/dps/and healers...

daylight01

 Sorry mate but now you are talking about aggro,you are saying about ppl healing without getting killed or players not getting attacked.

Well that is the holy trinity,if you have a good tank type and not an over zealous healer then it should go well everytime,what you seem to be asking is the target automatically spots the priest and runs and kills him 1st then moves onto the next "weakest" guy,basically leaving the tank to last.

Well that would bring us back to the game that you want were everyone multi tasks,by your reasoning as soon as someone heals he should be killed 1st as he stops the others from being killed and so on and so forth.

I mean who would want to heal in that sort of game,even as a support class I wouldnt heal.

Quizzical

A Tale in the Desert doesn't have tanks, healers, or damage dealers.  It also doesn't have combat.

If you want a game with combat, Puzzle Pirates doesn't have tanks, healers, or damage dealers.  Neither does it have different classes.

In The Chronicles of Spellborn, every class is a hybrid.  There are no tanks, as the game is based on mitigating damage by dodging it.  A player who fancies himself a tank and tries to draw all the hits is an idiot, and very soon to be a dead idiot.

If you want something closer to a conventional MMORPG, Guild Wars has no concept of aggro.  It does have healers, but the nearest concept to tanking is that every character has to be able to take a fair bit of damage, and if mobs are really going after one character, that character can use some defensive skills or have someone else cast a defensive enchantment on him to mitigate the damage.  One could argue that every class is a damage dealer, but anyone who tries mainly to deal damage is an idiot, unless he's doing something trivial so he can be completely reckless.

kingfelix

Originally posted by merv808

Originally posted by kingfelix


I thought City of Heroes/Villains did a good job when it came to this. While some good DPS is never unwelcome, good crowd control and buffing/debuffing are far superior to the tanking/healing approach to things in that game.

 

...i don't really see the difference in the way CoH/CoV did it than any other game...you still have tankers/dps/and healers...

 

Well yeah, the game does have tankers and defenders, but the buffing/debuffing defense sets are far more effective than the pure healing set, and tankers aren't even really necessary to have a good group. Some of the best groups I was in in that game consisted of only controllers, blasters and defenders.

PatchDay

Originally posted by Drachasor


I think I am really started to get fed up with how every MMORPG seems to be focused on having Tanks who draw all agro, healers who just heal others, and then DPS. It just stretched believability to a breaking point, imho, and it also always causes problems when the tank or healer role isn't a lot of fun for most people (though I do have fun playing a tank at times, the whole thing seems crazy even when I do it).
Are there any MMORPGs that have broken with this convention? I'd imagine everyone would be able to take some abuse and there'd probably still be healing of some sort (without pigeon-holing anyone into the role of always healing). Probably have an interesting system for determining who attacks what.

 

Linkrealms is pretty much the only one. Maybe also Darkfall

 

EVE Online as well to an extent

 

The key is abandon Class based system altogether in which is what linkrealms and DFO do.

Drachasor

Originally posted by daylight01


 Sorry mate but now you are talking about aggro,you are saying about ppl healing without getting killed or players not getting attacked.
Well that is the holy trinity,if you have a good tank type and not an over zealous healer then it should go well everytime,what you seem to be asking is the target automatically spots the priest and runs and kills him 1st then moves onto the next "weakest" guy,basically leaving the tank to last.
Well that would bring us back to the game that you want were everyone multi tasks,by your reasoning as soon as someone heals he should be killed 1st as he stops the others from being killed and so on and so forth.
I mean who would want to heal in that sort of game,even as a support class I wouldnt heal.

 

*sigh*  When I was talking about how you can one-shot healers, I was referring to existing games.  Take WoW, for instance, any raid boss can kill a healer in one blow.  EASY.  I don't want a game like that.  I want a game where IF someone that can heal gets targetted, then they can take a good amount of punishment.  Sure you'd have guys who can take more (and probably have some abilities they let them intercept a blow here and there on others, and other guys who can provide magical shields or the like), but everyone can take a beating.  You'd have some heals, but not a lot, so as combat went on people would get worn down (but not killed if done right).

Obviously no one would want to take a Tank/Healer/DPS game, keep the same level of survivability, and then change the aggro rules so everyone gets one-shotted before the tank gets attacked.

Reklaw

Originally posted by Drachasor


I think I am really started to get fed up with how every MMORPG seems to be focused on having Tanks who draw all agro, healers who just heal others, and then DPS. It just stretched believability to a breaking point, imho, and it also always causes problems when the tank or healer role isn't a lot of fun for most people (though I do have fun playing a tank at times, the whole thing seems crazy even when I do it).
Are there any MMORPGs that have broken with this convention? I'd imagine everyone would be able to take some abuse and there'd probably still be healing of some sort (without pigeon-holing anyone into the role of always healing). Probably have an interesting system for determining who attacks what.

All of them can be played that way, of course not so effecient as the holy trinity, of course it will creat a bigger challenge and I know many are not up to it.

 

It's pure about a persons playstyle, some are so depended on the holy trinity they can't play without, I know many who really try hard to NOT get a holy trinity and do it their way, sure it "can" take more time, but it also creates a bigger challenge, for none gamers this probebly would be a elitist way or hardcore way as they do not understand they way's of a gamer.

I never depended on the HT as it made things far to easy, of course coordinations and tactics come in play, but still to easy cause I like to play with gamers who know their character and anyone who knowns their character and gets into a HT will most often succeed at what that group is doing.

 

Drachasor

Originally posted by Quizzical


A Tale in the Desert doesn't have tanks, healers, or damage dealers.  It also doesn't have combat.
If you want a game with combat, Puzzle Pirates doesn't have tanks, healers, or damage dealers.  Neither does it have different classes.
In The Chronicles of Spellborn, every class is a hybrid.  There are no tanks, as the game is based on mitigating damage by dodging it.  A player who fancies himself a tank and tries to draw all the hits is an idiot, and very soon to be a dead idiot.
If you want something closer to a conventional MMORPG, Guild Wars has no concept of aggro.  It does have healers, but the nearest concept to tanking is that every character has to be able to take a fair bit of damage, and if mobs are really going after one character, that character can use some defensive skills or have someone else cast a defensive enchantment on him to mitigate the damage.  One could argue that every class is a damage dealer, but anyone who tries mainly to deal damage is an idiot, unless he's doing something trivial so he can be completely reckless.

 

Ahh, CoS and Guild Wars sound interesting.  I never actually tried Guild Wars.  That sort of thing is closer to what I am talking about.

daylight01

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by daylight01


 Sorry mate but now you are talking about aggro,you are saying about ppl healing without getting killed or players not getting attacked.
Well that is the holy trinity,if you have a good tank type and not an over zealous healer then it should go well everytime,what you seem to be asking is the target automatically spots the priest and runs and kills him 1st then moves onto the next "weakest" guy,basically leaving the tank to last.
Well that would bring us back to the game that you want were everyone multi tasks,by your reasoning as soon as someone heals he should be killed 1st as he stops the others from being killed and so on and so forth.
I mean who would want to heal in that sort of game,even as a support class I wouldnt heal.

 

*sigh*  When I was talking about how you can one-shot healers, I was referring to existing games.  Take WoW, for instance, any raid boss can kill a healer in one blow.  EASY.  I don't want a game like that.  I want a game where IF someone that can heal gets targetted, then they can take a good amount of punishment.  Sure you'd have guys who can take more (and probably have some abilities they let them intercept a blow here and there on others, and other guys who can provide magical shields or the like), but everyone can take a beating.  You'd have some heals, but not a lot, so as combat went on people would get worn down (but not killed if done right).

Obviously no one would want to take a Tank/Healer/DPS game, keep the same level of survivability, and then change the aggro rules so everyone gets one-shotted before the tank gets attacked.

Well when I played wow as a holy priest I could maybe take 2 or 3 hits from a boss type,ofc not the main boss 1 or 2 and I was down,though what you are asking is say 25 ppl in a raid can all basically tank a boss/take alot of damage from a boss as well as heal,I am starting to wonder were the challenge would be?

I mean it would be an easy encounter everytime "ok guys whoever gets the aggro just heal yourself and hit him,if he needs help on healing the other 24 of us will heal you till he switches aggro"

Sorry no game like that excists and I very much doubt it every will,even darkfall that is supposed to be the hardcore game doesnt have this dynamic.

Vyeth

Saga of Ryzom..

Leethe

Admission: I played TR from beta to closure and absoluely loved it.

 

Relevance: The main healer with health and armour in the game was the Medic. Taking on a Medic in PvP was most times a death sentence. The Medic was just as good at taking away health as it was at giving it. This was the top 'support class'.

 

The other support classes could not only stand toe to toe with the dps classes in PvE/PvP but the had a full range of regenerative powers at their command. The dps guys relied on heavy armour and tactics while the support ones were about preparation and resources. Rather than the trinity of dps/tank/healer, the roles were alpha strike, infiltration, subversion, area denial and psycho close quarters fighter. The game obviously didn't last for various reasons but I would hope that in future a game will come along and mix it up like that.

merv808

Ryzom is no different.

Sure every character can excel at every skill, but once combat starts its....you tank, and you heal.

Ballistica

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by daylight01


 Sorry mate but now you are talking about aggro,you are saying about ppl healing without getting killed or players not getting attacked.
Well that is the holy trinity,if you have a good tank type and not an over zealous healer then it should go well everytime,what you seem to be asking is the target automatically spots the priest and runs and kills him 1st then moves onto the next "weakest" guy,basically leaving the tank to last.
Well that would bring us back to the game that you want were everyone multi tasks,by your reasoning as soon as someone heals he should be killed 1st as he stops the others from being killed and so on and so forth.
I mean who would want to heal in that sort of game,even as a support class I wouldnt heal.

 

*sigh*  When I was talking about how you can one-shot healers, I was referring to existing games.  Take WoW, for instance, any raid boss can kill a healer in one blow.  EASY.  I don't want a game like that.  I want a game where IF someone that can heal gets targetted, then they can take a good amount of punishment.  Sure you'd have guys who can take more (and probably have some abilities they let them intercept a blow here and there on others, and other guys who can provide magical shields or the like), but everyone can take a beating.  You'd have some heals, but not a lot, so as combat went on people would get worn down (but not killed if done right).

Obviously no one would want to take a Tank/Healer/DPS game, keep the same level of survivability, and then change the aggro rules so everyone gets one-shotted before the tank gets attacked.

 

Vanguard healers were great DPS/Healer hybrids.

Vynt

I think WoW did the priest class incorrectly to begin with. I prefer the cleric in EQ who wore plate. Basically any game you can boil it down to the holy trinity, maybe a 4th if you consider support seperate. Even if it is a skill based game, you will need people that are more defense based for encounters. If they have more defense, they obviously have less healing or dps, so you will need other people with skills to reflect those.

Generic hybrids where  people are a jack of all trades works fine for every day grind. It does not work for any possible epic encounters though. Those are suppose to be difficult and an average tank will get ripped to shreds even if it has average healing, as all the others. That is why there is the HT to begin with. Specialization is always more effective and different specializations offer the opportunity for grouping.

The only time when there are not one of the 3 is when someone can do a slightly lesser job than 1 but offer something else. Hybrids. The enchanter that is less dps, but offers cc and buffs. The ranger with range dps over a close combat rogue, or the monk with nice dps, but good at pulling.

Take EQ for example. The HT would be warrior, cleric, wizard (or rogue maybe). With the dps, you could have so many other classes that offered something else. The healing, well, it could be done by druid or shm, but in major encounters, you wanted a mix of others anyway, and the tank, sometimes could settle for paladin or sk.

My point is, as was mentioned by another previously, games will always be reduced to their roles of damage, healing/support, and defense (tank). That is the way people see things, and actually the way things are. Even if everyone is hybrid, they still have those roles and people will assign accordingly. That is what combat is.

p.s. Oh, if everyone can do everything, basically it negates the reason for grouping. Part of the reason for so much soloing these days, that and grouping becomes counterproductive, slower until end game raids. Well, you also see soloing more because so much is dumbed down, made easier to do casually. Not a bad thing for those without much time, but grouping should provide bonuses to be more effective that soloing by far, like the group bonuses in EQ.