Saying trinity is required is illogical- the same way mobs are not logical. If they had any sense, they would act like Players and kill the healers first, then proceed to murder the squishies, and then lastly, they murder the Tanks This is how PVP works. Trinity fails there completely. And I would like to assume this is because players are smarter then the scripted AI we see in mmorpgs
Isn't this sad? Our mobs are mindless victims purely. If they had an ounce of intelligence Trinity would fall apart (like it does in PVP). And sadly mmorpgs have degraded to the point now where mmorpgs try to make 'Taunt' work in PVP. Taunt was always a crutch for poor game design and now it has crawled into pvp encounters in some titles.
I agree with this. Thing is, the holy trinity system is the easiest system to implement. Because it requires no proper monster AI. Offline FPS games have shown what AI can really do. Up to the point that NPC are freakingly dangerous. At least CCP tries to bring new fresh air into the dumped down world of MMORPGs with their new sleeper race.
Ah, and yes, NPCs in Ryzom have some nice AI, too. That's one of the reasons why the world feels so vivid. In contrast to the scripted wolf NPC in WoW which always walk from point A to B and back without noticing nice meat in front of him ...
The chronicles of spellborn does not have this tank-dps-healer so you may want to give it a try.
Actually it has. Sure, you can learn spells and abilities over other classes, too. But those of your main class will always be more powerful imho. Some classes seem to be better suited for tanking while other classes are better suited for healing.
But even with different "roles" it still can be funny. As long as the AI is clever enough to not always punch the heavy armored target in front of him. A good AI would watch the fight, find out the weaknesses and go for it. This would add a lot of dynamic to fights for sure.
WoW, however, is all centered around one big bad boss that hits for insane amount of damage. Given those constraints nothing else but the holy trinity system can work.
The chronicles of spellborn does not have this tank-dps-healer so you may want to give it a try.
Actually it has. Sure, you can learn spells and abilities over other classes, too. But those of your main class will always be more powerful imho. Some classes seem to be better suited for tanking while other classes are better suited for healing.
No class in The Chronicles of Spellborn is suited to eating a lot of damage. They're all based around avoiding damage by getting out of the way so that you don't get hit.
There aren't healer classes, either. Every class in the game can heal a little bit, but no class can heal very much.
No class in The Chronicles of Spellborn is suited to eating a lot of damage. They're all based around avoiding damage by getting out of the way so that you don't get hit. The two tenets of tanking are mitigation and avoidance; a class that can absorb 75% of damage with armour and one that can avoid 75% of damage by dodging are both considered "tanks"; just different flavours of tank. There aren't healer classes, either. Every class in the game can heal a little bit, but no class can heal very much. From what I've read about TCoS it seems to be inherently based around the concept of hybridisation in its class structure; but that doesn't necessarily mean that the concept of the TDH trinity would be eliminated.
I haven't played TCoS, but am genuinely interested .. if every class is capable of taking and dishing out damage, as well as having some element of healing .. how would the game present something along the lines of a dragon boss that's tuned for a 25 man group? How would the battle "flow" .. ?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Unless things have changed the highest group is 4 player's and the most that can "raid" is 2 groups of 4 so you wont be doing any 25 man runs..the devs were always against this sort of thing.
If someone had came up to me in 1980 when I was on my Atari 2600 and said we will be playing games with thousands of people at the same time.I guess my response would have been,"but I only have 2 joysticks"
I love the holy trinity dynamic. It allows for organized and often complex team play. I'm not saying nothing else will work, but I think its the best model anyone has come up with so far.
Grymm MMO addict in recovery! EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH, Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
No tank,so you want the fight to be non controlled chaotic,makes no sense to me.No healer,you would rather die?again makes no sense.
No DPS?how exactly would you kill the mob then?put it to permanent sleep?lol no sense again.
Alternative.You can tank ,take massive damage ,still no control because everyone would be equal.Ever fight in a game where the mob runs back n forth between different players?lmao it is not fun,you spend most of the fight chasing it not hitting it.
You can heal yourself.This means no definition to each player ,nothing but 500k clones of one another,all with the exact same skills as one another.You can all DPS,again clones no definition to your player as every player will be identical all tank/dps/healer.Nobody will have a specialty as you basically will be a one dimensional player>>run in attack,chase mob around,stop to heal yourself,run and chase mob again.Since mob runs all over,good chance at linking other mobs ,now you have total chaos,now you might have 5 other mobs chasing and running all over grabbing even more links lmao,yep CHAOS,no fun no control,no sense.
I would think that is pretty much what a player does not want in a PVE situation.For PVP ya it is all about Chaos no control,but then nobody wants balance,so you wont have your all in one package anymore.If it was balanced PVP,then it would be nothing more than a FPS game,no purpose to calling it a MMORPG then.Players would not have their own identity in an all balanced game either,so the game would draw zero interestIDK except maybe from the op?
The whole purpose of the traditional setup is to create a TEAM of players,you each have a role and trust each other with the role,it makes each person just as important as the other.I know a lot of games still fail at this because they set gear as the ultimate proving grounds.If they made all the elite gear accessed by each player,then it would be legit.The problem is that games tend to make it so ONLY 20/30 man raids can achieve certain gear.This does not mean you EARNED your right atop the chain,as some players will never have the chance to get that same gear.For a game to be legit,they NEED to start making elite gear a 1 on 1 battle,each player has to EARN it for themselves.As it is with raids,you could literally have 5 players standing in a corner picking their nose and end up with elite gear,not a rewarding/EARNED setup IMO.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I think I am really started to get fed up with how every MMORPG seems to be focused on having Tanks who draw all agro, healers who just heal others, and then DPS. It just stretched believability to a breaking point, imho, and it also always causes problems when the tank or healer role isn't a lot of fun for most people (though I do have fun playing a tank at times, the whole thing seems crazy even when I do it). Are there any MMORPGs that have broken with this convention? I'd imagine everyone would be able to take some abuse and there'd probably still be healing of some sort (without pigeon-holing anyone into the role of always healing). Probably have an interesting system for determining who attacks what.
Edit: A lot of people seem to be completely misunderstanding what I am talking or about or unable to really conceive of a game that isn't married to the mechanics of theTank-Healer-DPS system (so they try to envision a game with the same threat mechanics or the like). From my latest post (as of this edit) here is what I am talking about:
I'm not saying I don't want roles. I am not saying I wany everyone to do everything. Please my posts if you aren't getting this. I AM saying I want everyone able to take damage. I am saying I hate the Aggro system that Tank-Healer-DPS implies. A system where the monsters always attack one guy (the tank), even though that doesn't make any sense. I dislike the reality break there. Think of a fantasy movie or novel. You might have one guy position to take the initial brunt of the attacks, but everyone can defend themselves if they are attacked. Some people can heal, not everyone, but they don't churn out big heals constantly on one person. If one person gets into a tight spot, then a friend lends them a hand either with magic or steel so they aren't take down. A big dragon might breathe fire down on the heros, but one or two people have the capability of putting up a shield in response to that fire which will protect people. I want a game that does THAT, where the monsters act in a fairly realistic manner and the people can handle themselves to a degree but are even stronger as a group.
The Chronicles of Spellborn does not utilize the "holy trinity" set-up.
For a Large Scale PvE fight, having all classes share the same roles, seem lame. Because anybody can just pick up the fight if people die, dew to everybody being able to tank the Raid boss in someway. Think about it
It seems to me, that the way to diverge from this so called Holy Trinity, is to change the way combat is dealt with.
In the current stock of MMORPGs, combat seems pretty bland: "There's the badguy, he has stuff, we need that stuff, and the only way to get it is to kick his ass, let's go!"
I am designing a game where the interactions between characters (NPCs and PCs) is a little more dynamic. Battle is one option, and standing in three circles, that might as well be physically drawn on the ground, to fight opponents is probably the least effective way to deal with them.
My goal is to program the NPCs to behave like players in as many ways as possible, which includes battle (hello MMO Glider team, welcome to your next opportunity for employment).
I have done away with magical healing almost entirely (there is no one class that could be designated as the healer class), and not all classes are combat oriented.
Mind you, a class that isn't combat oriented doesn't have to be completely option-less when it comes to combat. The goal is to drive the players to come up with innovative ways to solve the situations they find themselves in (and traveling with companions is highly encouraged, be they hired [N]PCs, or friendly [N]PCs).
Should it come to a battle to the death, throwing (or luring) your opponent off a high cliff can be just as effective as stabbing them repeatedly in the stomach.
Things you won't find in this game are levels, or "Bosses", or "Raids," or "Kill X Shmaublydoobat quests."
[Another example of non-trinity: M-16, S.A.W., M-203, M-2+M-9]
Think of a fantasy movie or novel. You might have one guy position to take the initial brunt of the attacks, but everyone can defend themselves if they are attacked. Some people can heal, not everyone, but they don't churn out big heals constantly on one person. If one person gets into a tight spot, then a friend lends them a hand either with magic or steel so they aren't take down. A big dragon might breathe fire down on the heros, but one or two people have the capability of putting up a shield in response to that fire which will protect people. I want a game that does THAT, where the monsters act in a fairly realistic manner and the people can handle themselves to a degree but are even stronger as a group.
I agree with you. I'd like to see that myself. The problem is that there isn't a developer out there right now who wants to take the financial risk to develop AI that can do such things. It's too 'different' which is honestly a lotta bullshit, but it's the truth. When UO came out, it was probably the closest thing to what you describe, but now even that game is screwed up beyond recognition.
In either case, I hope someone makes a game like that, but it's probably not gonna happen. I'm sticking to my single player RPGs for now.
The doll would surely say, "I do not want to be human!" although her master wants her to be even more.
For a Large Scale PvE fight, having all classes share the same roles, seem lame. Because anybody can just pick up the fight if people die, dew to everybody being able to tank the Raid boss in someway. Think about it
Sounds like a good deal too me. So if someone has to logout anyone can fill in the gap. Hard for me to see a bad side to this?
not everyone wants to spend all night in town, "LF Healer!!! Please send tell!"
And what's so hard about getting on vent and coordinating this? If 100s of pvpers can coordinate in EVE surely 20+ people can coordinate to beatdown some scripted AI boss that does that same dance routine everynight
Think of a fantasy movie or novel. You might have one guy position to take the initial brunt of the attacks, but everyone can defend themselves if they are attacked. Some people can heal, not everyone, but they don't churn out big heals constantly on one person. If one person gets into a tight spot, then a friend lends them a hand either with magic or steel so they aren't take down. A big dragon might breathe fire down on the heros, but one or two people have the capability of putting up a shield in response to that fire which will protect people. I want a game that does THAT, where the monsters act in a fairly realistic manner and the people can handle themselves to a degree but are even stronger as a group.
I agree with you. I'd like to see that myself. The problem is that there isn't a developer out there right now who wants to take the financial risk to develop AI that can do such things. It's too 'different' which is honestly a lotta bullshit, but it's the truth. When UO came out, it was probably the closest thing to what you describe, but now even that game is screwed up beyond recognition.
In either case, I hope someone makes a game like that, but it's probably not gonna happen. I'm sticking to my single player RPGs for now.
You should checkout Linkrealms I have feeling you'd like it as well
It seems to me, that the way to diverge from this so called Holy Trinity, is to change the way combat is dealt with.
In the current stock of MMORPGs, combat seems pretty bland: "There's the badguy, he has stuff, we need that stuff, and the only way to get it is to kick his ass, let's go!"
I am designing a game where the interactions between characters (NPCs and PCs) is a little more dynamic. Battle is one option, and standing in three circles, that might as well be physically drawn on the ground, to fight opponents is probably the least effective way to deal with them.
My goal is to program the NPCs to behave like players in as many ways as possible, which includes battle (hello MMO Glider team, welcome to your next opportunity for employment).
I have done away with magical healing almost entirely (there is no one class that could be designated as the healer class), and not all classes are combat oriented.
Mind you, a class that isn't combat oriented doesn't have to be completely option-less when it comes to combat. The goal is to drive the players to come up with innovative ways to solve the situations they find themselves in (and traveling with companions is highly encouraged, be they hired [N]PCs, or friendly [N]PCs).
Should it come to a battle to the death, throwing (or luring) your opponent off a high cliff can be just as effective as stabbing them repeatedly in the stomach.
Things you won't find in this game are levels, or "Bosses", or "Raids," or "Kill X Shmaublydoobat quests."
No class in The Chronicles of Spellborn is suited to eating a lot of damage. They're all based around avoiding damage by getting out of the way so that you don't get hit. The two tenets of tanking are mitigation and avoidance; a class that can absorb 75% of damage with armour and one that can avoid 75% of damage by dodging are both considered "tanks"; just different flavours of tank. There aren't healer classes, either. Every class in the game can heal a little bit, but no class can heal very much. From what I've read about TCoS it seems to be inherently based around the concept of hybridisation in its class structure; but that doesn't necessarily mean that the concept of the TDH trinity would be eliminated.
I haven't played TCoS, but am genuinely interested .. if every class is capable of taking and dishing out damage, as well as having some element of healing .. how would the game present something along the lines of a dragon boss that's tuned for a 25 man group? How would the battle "flow" .. ?
If being able to dodge 75% of the time makes a class a tank, then every class is a tank in The Chronicles of Spellborn. Dodging isn't based on your gear giving you +dodge chance. Rather, it's based on, a mob is coming toward you and going to attack in a particular direction, so you strafe to get out of the way. No classes have any inherent advantage at doing this. To call that tanking is to say that Mario was a tank in Super Mario World because a good player could get out of the way of an incoming mob 99% of the time.
As for how things are tuned for a 25 man raid, they aren't. The maximum group size is 4.
I agree with this. Thing is, the holy trinity system is the easiest system to implement. Because it requires no proper monster AI. Offline FPS games have shown what AI can really do. Up to the point that NPC are freakingly dangerous. At least CCP tries to bring new fresh air into the dumped down world of MMORPGs with their new sleeper race. Ah, and yes, NPCs in Ryzom have some nice AI, too. That's one of the reasons why the world feels so vivid. In contrast to the scripted wolf NPC in WoW which always walk from point A to B and back without noticing nice meat in front of him ...
That is wrong. It is simpler to just let the mob go after whoever is doing the most damage, or the most healing. It is a design choice and nothing to do with how difficult it is to implement.
It seems to me, that the way to diverge from this so called Holy Trinity, is to change the way combat is dealt with.
In the current stock of MMORPGs, combat seems pretty bland: "There's the badguy, he has stuff, we need that stuff, and the only way to get it is to kick his ass, let's go!"
I am designing a game where the interactions between characters (NPCs and PCs) is a little more dynamic. Battle is one option, and standing in three circles, that might as well be physically drawn on the ground, to fight opponents is probably the least effective way to deal with them.
My goal is to program the NPCs to behave like players in as many ways as possible, which includes battle (hello MMO Glider team, welcome to your next opportunity for employment).
I have done away with magical healing almost entirely (there is no one class that could be designated as the healer class), and not all classes are combat oriented.
Mind you, a class that isn't combat oriented doesn't have to be completely option-less when it comes to combat. The goal is to drive the players to come up with innovative ways to solve the situations they find themselves in (and traveling with companions is highly encouraged, be they hired [N]PCs, or friendly [N]PCs).
Should it come to a battle to the death, throwing (or luring) your opponent off a high cliff can be just as effective as stabbing them repeatedly in the stomach.
Things you won't find in this game are levels, or "Bosses", or "Raids," or "Kill X Shmaublydoobat quests."
If being able to dodge 75% of the time makes a class a tank, then every class is a tank in The Chronicles of Spellborn. Dodging isn't based on your gear giving you +dodge chance. Rather, it's based on, a mob is coming toward you and going to attack in a particular direction, so you strafe to get out of the way. No classes have any inherent advantage at doing this. To call that tanking is to say that Mario was a tank in Super Mario World because a good player could get out of the way of an incoming mob 99% of the time. As for how things are tuned for a 25 man raid, they aren't. The maximum group size is 4.
That is FPS twitch based combat and not RPG char based combat. So no thanks. Plus it can't support big or even medium raids.
No class in The Chronicles of Spellborn is suited to eating a lot of damage. They're all based around avoiding damage by getting out of the way so that you don't get hit. The two tenets of tanking are mitigation and avoidance; a class that can absorb 75% of damage with armour and one that can avoid 75% of damage by dodging are both considered "tanks"; just different flavours of tank. There aren't healer classes, either. Every class in the game can heal a little bit, but no class can heal very much. From what I've read about TCoS it seems to be inherently based around the concept of hybridisation in its class structure; but that doesn't necessarily mean that the concept of the TDH trinity would be eliminated.
I haven't played TCoS, but am genuinely interested .. if every class is capable of taking and dishing out damage, as well as having some element of healing .. how would the game present something along the lines of a dragon boss that's tuned for a 25 man group? How would the battle "flow" .. ?
If being able to dodge 75% of the time makes a class a tank, then every class is a tank in The Chronicles of Spellborn. Dodging isn't based on your gear giving you +dodge chance. Rather, it's based on, a mob is coming toward you and going to attack in a particular direction, so you strafe to get out of the way. No classes have any inherent advantage at doing this. To call that tanking is to say that Mario was a tank in Super Mario World because a good player could get out of the way of an incoming mob 99% of the time.
As for how things are tuned for a 25 man raid, they aren't. The maximum group size is 4.
TCoS is a good game I just felt that it was just too heavy quest driven. The quests I encountered in beta just didnt seem very good at all. like-- just bad, fedex, and fedex
Liked the combat and a few other things though
-- Anyway meant to say I think that's more realistic approach. Dodge the damage altogehter and allow the player to use their reflexes to dodge a blow
Originally posted by nariusseldon That is FPS twitch based combat and not RPG char based combat. So no thanks. Plus it can't support big or even medium raids.
Since when does being able to dodge mean it's a first person shooter? As I cited above, was Super Mario World a first person shooter?
It's not a first person shooter. Like many MMORPGs, you can use either a first person view or a third person view--and it's rather stupid to use a first person view.
Guild Wars has a milder version of dodging projectile attacks by getting out of the way. Surely you wouldn't insist that is a first person shooter, would you? Guild Wars doesn't let you dodge melee, though.
Even in darkfall some try to play a role hahaha ok soon they realise that in darkfall there are no classes and its stupid to be pure mage or melee but prolly will take awhile before they see the light hehe.
Most games these days just copy wow and make sure you have tank healer dps this is what todays players want well majority they just dont know any other way and think every game should have it and many devs just make sure they serve this need.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
No class in The Chronicles of Spellborn is suited to eating a lot of damage. They're all based around avoiding damage by getting out of the way so that you don't get hit. The two tenets of tanking are mitigation and avoidance; a class that can absorb 75% of damage with armour and one that can avoid 75% of damage by dodging are both considered "tanks"; just different flavours of tank. There aren't healer classes, either. Every class in the game can heal a little bit, but no class can heal very much. From what I've read about TCoS it seems to be inherently based around the concept of hybridisation in its class structure; but that doesn't necessarily mean that the concept of the TDH trinity would be eliminated.
I haven't played TCoS, but am genuinely interested .. if every class is capable of taking and dishing out damage, as well as having some element of healing .. how would the game present something along the lines of a dragon boss that's tuned for a 25 man group? How would the battle "flow" .. ?
If being able to dodge 75% of the time makes a class a tank, then every class is a tank in The Chronicles of Spellborn. Dodging isn't based on your gear giving you +dodge chance. Rather, it's based on, a mob is coming toward you and going to attack in a particular direction, so you strafe to get out of the way. No classes have any inherent advantage at doing this. To call that tanking is to say that Mario was a tank in Super Mario World because a good player could get out of the way of an incoming mob 99% of the time.
Yes, from what you describe every class in TCoS is capable of tanking; and from what you said earlier, every class has a limited ability to heal .. and I'm assuming that every class has the ability to deal damage to some degree.
But that doesn't escape the THD trinity; the three elements of combat are still there even if they are watered down so that every class is capable of performing each "role", which sounds somewhat homogenous.
As for how things are tuned for a 25 man raid, they aren't. The maximum group size is 4.
Ok, but if TCoS is a viable alternative to the THD trinity, how would a large-scale group encounter against a single enemy work? and how does combat work in general, do all group members attack simultanously and do damage while healing themselves from whatever damage they take? is there a concept of threat/agro/hate and if not, how does the enemy determine a target?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Originally posted by Ilvaldyr If being able to dodge 75% of the time makes a class a tank, then every class is a tank in The Chronicles of Spellborn. Dodging isn't based on your gear giving you +dodge chance. Rather, it's based on, a mob is coming toward you and going to attack in a particular direction, so you strafe to get out of the way. No classes have any inherent advantage at doing this. To call that tanking is to say that Mario was a tank in Super Mario World because a good player could get out of the way of an incoming mob 99% of the time. Yes, from what you describe every class in TCoS is capable of tanking; and from what you said earlier, every class has a limited ability to heal .. and I'm assuming that every class has the ability to deal damage to some degree. But that doesn't escape the THD trinity; the three elements of combat are still there even if they are watered down so that every class is capable of performing each "role", which sounds somewhat homogenous. As for how things are tuned for a 25 man raid, they aren't. The maximum group size is 4. Ok, but if TCoS is a viable alternative to the THD trinity, how would a large-scale group encounter against a single enemy work? and how does combat work in general, do all group members attack simultanously and do damage while healing themselves from whatever damage they take? is there a concept of threat/agro/hate and if not, how does the enemy determine a target?
I just want to say that TCoS does escape the THD trinity. Healing, taking damage, and dealing damage ARE aspects of any fantasy combat, pretty much. THD makes it so that ONE group of guys takes almost ALL of the damage, ANOTHER group of guys does almost ALL the healing, and A THIRD group of guys does almost all the damage. If you make it so that you don't have those distinct groups, then you no longer have THD.
I haven't gotten far into TCOS, so I don't know how they determine who to attack. I know generally a gorup of bad guys are supposed to pair off more or less on the good guys. Ther are some ways to debuff mobs and buff allies, and I think some light CC ability, but I don't know all the specifics. I don't think the game is designed to have big 20+ person fights though, so the Devs probably haven't even thought about how that would be done.
Comments
I agree with this. Thing is, the holy trinity system is the easiest system to implement. Because it requires no proper monster AI. Offline FPS games have shown what AI can really do. Up to the point that NPC are freakingly dangerous. At least CCP tries to bring new fresh air into the dumped down world of MMORPGs with their new sleeper race.
Ah, and yes, NPCs in Ryzom have some nice AI, too. That's one of the reasons why the world feels so vivid. In contrast to the scripted wolf NPC in WoW which always walk from point A to B and back without noticing nice meat in front of him ...
The chronicles of spellborn does not have this tank-dps-healer so you may want to give it a try.
Actually it has. Sure, you can learn spells and abilities over other classes, too. But those of your main class will always be more powerful imho. Some classes seem to be better suited for tanking while other classes are better suited for healing.
But even with different "roles" it still can be funny. As long as the AI is clever enough to not always punch the heavy armored target in front of him. A good AI would watch the fight, find out the weaknesses and go for it. This would add a lot of dynamic to fights for sure.
WoW, however, is all centered around one big bad boss that hits for insane amount of damage. Given those constraints nothing else but the holy trinity system can work.
Actually it has. Sure, you can learn spells and abilities over other classes, too. But those of your main class will always be more powerful imho. Some classes seem to be better suited for tanking while other classes are better suited for healing.
No class in The Chronicles of Spellborn is suited to eating a lot of damage. They're all based around avoiding damage by getting out of the way so that you don't get hit.
There aren't healer classes, either. Every class in the game can heal a little bit, but no class can heal very much.
Ultima Online, although I dont suggest playing it in its current form. Might check some free servers for the classic experience.
I haven't played TCoS, but am genuinely interested .. if every class is capable of taking and dishing out damage, as well as having some element of healing .. how would the game present something along the lines of a dragon boss that's tuned for a 25 man group? How would the battle "flow" .. ?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Unless things have changed the highest group is 4 player's and the most that can "raid" is 2 groups of 4 so you wont be doing any 25 man runs..the devs were always against this sort of thing.
If someone had came up to me in 1980 when I was on my Atari 2600 and said we will be playing games with thousands of people at the same time.I guess my response would have been,"but I only have 2 joysticks"
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/235780/page/8
I love the holy trinity dynamic. It allows for organized and often complex team play. I'm not saying nothing else will work, but I think its the best model anyone has come up with so far.
Grymm
MMO addict in recovery!
EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH,
Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
Ok let me see if i got this right?
No tank,so you want the fight to be non controlled chaotic,makes no sense to me.No healer,you would rather die?again makes no sense.
No DPS?how exactly would you kill the mob then?put it to permanent sleep?lol no sense again.
Alternative.You can tank ,take massive damage ,still no control because everyone would be equal.Ever fight in a game where the mob runs back n forth between different players?lmao it is not fun,you spend most of the fight chasing it not hitting it.
You can heal yourself.This means no definition to each player ,nothing but 500k clones of one another,all with the exact same skills as one another.You can all DPS,again clones no definition to your player as every player will be identical all tank/dps/healer.Nobody will have a specialty as you basically will be a one dimensional player>>run in attack,chase mob around,stop to heal yourself,run and chase mob again.Since mob runs all over,good chance at linking other mobs ,now you have total chaos,now you might have 5 other mobs chasing and running all over grabbing even more links lmao,yep CHAOS,no fun no control,no sense.
I would think that is pretty much what a player does not want in a PVE situation.For PVP ya it is all about Chaos no control,but then nobody wants balance,so you wont have your all in one package anymore.If it was balanced PVP,then it would be nothing more than a FPS game,no purpose to calling it a MMORPG then.Players would not have their own identity in an all balanced game either,so the game would draw zero interestIDK except maybe from the op?
The whole purpose of the traditional setup is to create a TEAM of players,you each have a role and trust each other with the role,it makes each person just as important as the other.I know a lot of games still fail at this because they set gear as the ultimate proving grounds.If they made all the elite gear accessed by each player,then it would be legit.The problem is that games tend to make it so ONLY 20/30 man raids can achieve certain gear.This does not mean you EARNED your right atop the chain,as some players will never have the chance to get that same gear.For a game to be legit,they NEED to start making elite gear a 1 on 1 battle,each player has to EARN it for themselves.As it is with raids,you could literally have 5 players standing in a corner picking their nose and end up with elite gear,not a rewarding/EARNED setup IMO.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The Chronicles of Spellborn does not utilize the "holy trinity" set-up.
For a Large Scale PvE fight, having all classes share the same roles, seem lame. Because anybody can just pick up the fight if people die, dew to everybody being able to tank the Raid boss in someway. Think about it
It seems to me, that the way to diverge from this so called Holy Trinity, is to change the way combat is dealt with.
In the current stock of MMORPGs, combat seems pretty bland: "There's the badguy, he has stuff, we need that stuff, and the only way to get it is to kick his ass, let's go!"
I am designing a game where the interactions between characters (NPCs and PCs) is a little more dynamic. Battle is one option, and standing in three circles, that might as well be physically drawn on the ground, to fight opponents is probably the least effective way to deal with them.
My goal is to program the NPCs to behave like players in as many ways as possible, which includes battle (hello MMO Glider team, welcome to your next opportunity for employment).
I have done away with magical healing almost entirely (there is no one class that could be designated as the healer class), and not all classes are combat oriented.
Mind you, a class that isn't combat oriented doesn't have to be completely option-less when it comes to combat. The goal is to drive the players to come up with innovative ways to solve the situations they find themselves in (and traveling with companions is highly encouraged, be they hired [N]PCs, or friendly [N]PCs).
Should it come to a battle to the death, throwing (or luring) your opponent off a high cliff can be just as effective as stabbing them repeatedly in the stomach.
Things you won't find in this game are levels, or "Bosses", or "Raids," or "Kill X Shmaublydoobat quests."
[Another example of non-trinity: M-16, S.A.W., M-203, M-2+M-9]
[And another... Infantry, Archers, Cavalry, Knights...]
H A D O K E N !
I agree with you. I'd like to see that myself. The problem is that there isn't a developer out there right now who wants to take the financial risk to develop AI that can do such things. It's too 'different' which is honestly a lotta bullshit, but it's the truth. When UO came out, it was probably the closest thing to what you describe, but now even that game is screwed up beyond recognition.
In either case, I hope someone makes a game like that, but it's probably not gonna happen. I'm sticking to my single player RPGs for now.
The doll would surely say, "I do not want to be human!" although her master wants her to be even more.
Sounds like a good deal too me. So if someone has to logout anyone can fill in the gap. Hard for me to see a bad side to this?
not everyone wants to spend all night in town, "LF Healer!!! Please send tell!"
And what's so hard about getting on vent and coordinating this? If 100s of pvpers can coordinate in EVE surely 20+ people can coordinate to beatdown some scripted AI boss that does that same dance routine everynight
I agree with you. I'd like to see that myself. The problem is that there isn't a developer out there right now who wants to take the financial risk to develop AI that can do such things. It's too 'different' which is honestly a lotta bullshit, but it's the truth. When UO came out, it was probably the closest thing to what you describe, but now even that game is screwed up beyond recognition.
In either case, I hope someone makes a game like that, but it's probably not gonna happen. I'm sticking to my single player RPGs for now.
You should checkout Linkrealms I have feeling you'd like it as well
That seem lame like Guild Wars' PvE
No offense
I haven't played TCoS, but am genuinely interested .. if every class is capable of taking and dishing out damage, as well as having some element of healing .. how would the game present something along the lines of a dragon boss that's tuned for a 25 man group? How would the battle "flow" .. ?
If being able to dodge 75% of the time makes a class a tank, then every class is a tank in The Chronicles of Spellborn. Dodging isn't based on your gear giving you +dodge chance. Rather, it's based on, a mob is coming toward you and going to attack in a particular direction, so you strafe to get out of the way. No classes have any inherent advantage at doing this. To call that tanking is to say that Mario was a tank in Super Mario World because a good player could get out of the way of an incoming mob 99% of the time.
As for how things are tuned for a 25 man raid, they aren't. The maximum group size is 4.
That is wrong. It is simpler to just let the mob go after whoever is doing the most damage, or the most healing. It is a design choice and nothing to do with how difficult it is to implement.
Sounds really cool too me
That is FPS twitch based combat and not RPG char based combat. So no thanks. Plus it can't support big or even medium raids.
I haven't played TCoS, but am genuinely interested .. if every class is capable of taking and dishing out damage, as well as having some element of healing .. how would the game present something along the lines of a dragon boss that's tuned for a 25 man group? How would the battle "flow" .. ?
If being able to dodge 75% of the time makes a class a tank, then every class is a tank in The Chronicles of Spellborn. Dodging isn't based on your gear giving you +dodge chance. Rather, it's based on, a mob is coming toward you and going to attack in a particular direction, so you strafe to get out of the way. No classes have any inherent advantage at doing this. To call that tanking is to say that Mario was a tank in Super Mario World because a good player could get out of the way of an incoming mob 99% of the time.
As for how things are tuned for a 25 man raid, they aren't. The maximum group size is 4.
TCoS is a good game I just felt that it was just too heavy quest driven. The quests I encountered in beta just didnt seem very good at all. like-- just bad, fedex, and fedex
Liked the combat and a few other things though
-- Anyway meant to say I think that's more realistic approach. Dodge the damage altogehter and allow the player to use their reflexes to dodge a blow
Since when does being able to dodge mean it's a first person shooter? As I cited above, was Super Mario World a first person shooter?
It's not a first person shooter. Like many MMORPGs, you can use either a first person view or a third person view--and it's rather stupid to use a first person view.
Guild Wars has a milder version of dodging projectile attacks by getting out of the way. Surely you wouldn't insist that is a first person shooter, would you? Guild Wars doesn't let you dodge melee, though.
Even in darkfall some try to play a role hahaha ok soon they realise that in darkfall there are no classes and its stupid to be pure mage or melee but prolly will take awhile before they see the light hehe.
Most games these days just copy wow and make sure you have tank healer dps this is what todays players want well majority they just dont know any other way and think every game should have it and many devs just make sure they serve this need.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I haven't played TCoS, but am genuinely interested .. if every class is capable of taking and dishing out damage, as well as having some element of healing .. how would the game present something along the lines of a dragon boss that's tuned for a 25 man group? How would the battle "flow" .. ?
If being able to dodge 75% of the time makes a class a tank, then every class is a tank in The Chronicles of Spellborn. Dodging isn't based on your gear giving you +dodge chance. Rather, it's based on, a mob is coming toward you and going to attack in a particular direction, so you strafe to get out of the way. No classes have any inherent advantage at doing this. To call that tanking is to say that Mario was a tank in Super Mario World because a good player could get out of the way of an incoming mob 99% of the time.
Yes, from what you describe every class in TCoS is capable of tanking; and from what you said earlier, every class has a limited ability to heal .. and I'm assuming that every class has the ability to deal damage to some degree.
But that doesn't escape the THD trinity; the three elements of combat are still there even if they are watered down so that every class is capable of performing each "role", which sounds somewhat homogenous.
As for how things are tuned for a 25 man raid, they aren't. The maximum group size is 4.
Ok, but if TCoS is a viable alternative to the THD trinity, how would a large-scale group encounter against a single enemy work? and how does combat work in general, do all group members attack simultanously and do damage while healing themselves from whatever damage they take? is there a concept of threat/agro/hate and if not, how does the enemy determine a target?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I just want to say that TCoS does escape the THD trinity. Healing, taking damage, and dealing damage ARE aspects of any fantasy combat, pretty much. THD makes it so that ONE group of guys takes almost ALL of the damage, ANOTHER group of guys does almost ALL the healing, and A THIRD group of guys does almost all the damage. If you make it so that you don't have those distinct groups, then you no longer have THD.
I haven't gotten far into TCOS, so I don't know how they determine who to attack. I know generally a gorup of bad guys are supposed to pair off more or less on the good guys. Ther are some ways to debuff mobs and buff allies, and I think some light CC ability, but I don't know all the specifics. I don't think the game is designed to have big 20+ person fights though, so the Devs probably haven't even thought about how that would be done.