I counted ship time as anything that might be taken as a view from the game "as it is" ... meaning third person exterior views.
Since this particular episode was entirely on the ship, all the remaining time was interior shots with a vast majority going to major characters. One episode wonders had a bit of screen time because they were diplomatic passengers ...
I understand that many people think the show is all about the ship ... but would the show be possible without ever showing the ship once? Maybe not every episode, but the one I watched certainly could have, and it was still a decent show.
If we were to reverse the question and postulate that every episode was an exterior view of the ship, but you could hear the crew talking ... how many minutes of watching the ship with the zipping star effect while listening to the crew would be possible before being driven entirely insane?
Obviously, the perfect answer is to have both in a perfect mix. Choosing either one with the "soon"(TM) promise is going to turn a great deal of people away from the game.
I would've chosen the route of establishing a serious base of roleplayers, who typically earn their own money and have an attention span long enough to watch a full episode (instead of just the combat), and then added the adrenaline junkies, who will likely just stay until something new comes out. I'd argue that there are likely many more people right now using MUDs, chats, java games, whatever they can, to fulfill their Star Trek dreams than there are playing the last Star Trek ship game.
Cryptic has decided to go the route of WAR ... 1.2 million sales to 300,000k subscriptions in less than six months.
STO is a GAME. In the end no matter how much other ... "stuff" is the polite term I'll use I guess, some of you people want to hang on it can change that. It's not TNG sim online. It's not Federation sim online. It's Star Trek Online the GAME. You can't make a GAME, and provide engaging and exciting game play, out of people walking around inside a ship.
They have to go with the content they feel will appeal to the widest variety of potential subscribers they can whilst being realistic in estimating that potential, wherein it lies.,
So , you think that selling out to non Star Trek Fans is in the best interest to an IP as massive as Star Trek ? That makes a lot of sense.....
With IP like Star trek, if your not building a world for the fans, you have already dug the grave to the games end.
What Star Trek fans do you mean? I've been a Star Trek fan for @35 years (would have been longer if we would have had a TV with more than one channel where I was living before we did) and I don't feel they've "sold out" at all, and I feel that they're doing just fine "building a world" for me.
I counted ship time as anything that might be taken as a view from the game "as it is" ... meaning third person exterior views.
Since this particular episode was entirely on the ship, all the remaining time was interior shots with a vast majority going to major characters. One episode wonders had a bit of screen time because they were diplomatic passengers ...
I understand that many people think the show is all about the ship ... but would the show be possible without ever showing the ship once? Maybe not every episode, but the one I watched certainly could have, and it was still a decent show.
If we were to reverse the question and postulate that every episode was an exterior view of the ship, but you could hear the crew talking ... how many minutes of watching the ship with the zipping star effect while listening to the crew would be possible before being driven entirely insane?
Obviously, the perfect answer is to have both in a perfect mix. Choosing either one with the "soon"(TM) promise is going to turn a great deal of people away from the game.
I would've chosen the route of establishing a serious base of roleplayers, who typically earn their own money and have an attention span long enough to watch a full episode (instead of just the combat), and then added the adrenaline junkies, who will likely just stay until something new comes out. I'd argue that there are likely many more people right now using MUDs, chats, java games, whatever they can, to fulfill their Star Trek dreams than there are playing the last Star Trek ship game.
Cryptic has decided to go the route of WAR ... 1.2 million sales to 300,000k subscriptions in less than six months.
STO is a GAME. In the end no matter how much other ... "stuff" is the polite term I'll use I guess, some of you people want to hang on it can change that. It's not TNG sim online. It's not Federation sim online. It's Star Trek Online the GAME. You can't make a GAME, and provide engaging and exciting game play, out of people walking around inside a ship.
But you see, you are missing the point that some of us are trying to make....
Star Trek Online Should be a "Federation Sim Online" type of MMORPG ... at least in the opinion of some of us gamers. AND even if it were a "Federation Sim Online" type of Game, it would still be a game, whether everyone agreed it was or not.
If it was developed as a Federation Silmulation, then at least it would be a "child" of the TV Series and Movies, instead of a "pew pew" scifi shooter game with a Star Trek skin on it. Star Trek WAS all about roleplaying in a sense since 90% of all video footage of the Series and Movies involved the interaction and adventures of the main characters of Star Trek, NOT the ships themselves per se.
So I would say that if the design of STO is based upon "Roleplay" Features first, with Action, Combat systems, Crafting, etc., being added to enhance the "RolePlaying" primary priority of the game design, then STO would be designed correctly when compared to the Star Trek Media (TV and Movies). However, it appears that "RolePlay" in a Star Trek MMO is NOT the design priority of STO, so IMHO it is being designed incorrectly. No matter how much the Fans / Customers want a Space Ship Combat Action Game does NOT change that.
IMHO as it is being developed presently, (as a software platform usable by both PC and Console Gaming systems,) it's own design intent is it's worst enemy. No MMORPG should be developed for Console Gaming until Console technology advances to the point where 100% of what a PC system can deliver is delivered by a Console system. That point has not arrived yet unfortunately. Until Consoles can do what a PC can do with a MMORPG, then any attempt to design a game that works with both will only lead to disappointment for the PC users AND the Console Users. These two groups of Players both want different features and a different experience from a game and the two groups cannot be reconciled.
As for you saying that "stuff...is the polite term I'll use I guess" that you refer to Hagonbak, We are discussing a MMORPG...a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game...
And if you do not want "stuff" ... in effect "Role Playing" stuff in your game, then stop posting on these forums (MMORPG.Com's Forums if I may add) and go find another type of gaming genre to enjoy. As a player of MMORPG's I have heard enough of some Player's demands that anything that has roleplay in a MMORPG should take a back seat to action and combat in an MMORPG, which in reality all game features should take a backseat to Roleplay Features in a MMORPG by default. If you as a Player do not appreciate Roleplaying in a MMO then go play another type of game.
Except tthat if you really were just "interested in games in general" and not here to push some agenda, then you'd know that there is in fact definable trends as to what people prefer in these games, and fairly accurate data that good companies use that is based on past and present populations, exit surveys, target market sampling, etc etc. It's not the crap shoot you seem to think it is. The reason for some of the big duds lately are pretty clear as well. For those truly following with an "interest in games in general" anyway. The problem lies with developers that either get too full of themselves and think that they know better what gamers will want than the gamers do (i.e.Guate Godager of AoC), or ones that buy into rhetoric spewed by "special interest groups" within their fan community that manage to gain the most volume and seemingly drown others out (i.e. MBJ of Mythic and WAR). Sure there's a market for Star Trek simulation content in STO. There's a market for Orion brothels with fully simulated sex too. So does that mean that Orion brothels with fully simulated sex should be included in STO at launch? No, of course not. Should they be added later? Well if Cryptic felt that it was something that wasn't vital, but something that would be a perk and please some of their customers, and could be added later once they had some revenue coming in, then they probably would. That's how they're handling interiors. Why can't people just accept that? They have to go with the content they feel will appeal to the widest variety of potential subscribers they can whilst being realistic in estimating that potential, wherein it lies., and also whilst staying within a budget and time frame given by those holding the money. Of course they knew their decisions regarding ship interiors would **** some people off. Evidently the data they're looking at doesn't show them that that particular segment being ****ed off will do their game all that much harm. That's not meant as a slight against the people that want them in at launch though. That's not Cryptic saying those people are wrong for wanting them. It is just what it is.
1) I love how you know why I'm "really" here better then I do. I guess next you'll have me flying around in a black helicopter too.
2) Working for a Developer in a different verticle (not gaming), I have a little insight into how certain projects like this go down. I think you'd be very surprised how many major projects get developed with little to no market research.... or the generaly haphazard nature of the research that is conducted.
3) I do believe that there are companies out there that do decent market research. I do NOT believe that market research consists of "Lets have Hagonbok tell us the way it is". I do NOT believe that you have access to any real market research on these issues. If you do, you certainly haven't cited it any of it as support for your arguements. Does Cryptic make good use of market research....shrug... I don't have any inside knowledge of their practices...so no idea. The titles they produce seem to do ok....but certainly not generaly runaway success. I'm not sure what that is indicative.
4) The reason for many of the duds lately have less to do with catering to "special interests" or "thinking they know better then gamers" or alot of the other stuff that you want to spew then they do with mis-management on purely technical or financial basis. In part that's due to setting unrealistic expectations (i.e. If you are banking on getting WOW style subscriptions in the first 6 months and setting your budgets based upon those predictions.... something that WAY too many companies fall victem of...then you are setting yourself up for failure). In part it's because projects of this complexity demand both excellent project management skills and very strong discipline among senior management.....and both of those tend to be a rare commodity in the industry.
I'm also willing to bet that alot of the projects you might consider "duds" actually aren't. Many games, including many limited market games, are actually quite financialy successfull. The key is setting your production budget in line with realistic expectations on return.
I don't think the game alot of us would prefer to see Cryptic make would be a "niche" market product. However, purely as an aside, niche market products CAN actualy have a much higher chance of financial success then mass market products. The reason is simple, there is ALOT of competition in the mass market. It requires not only a VERY LARGE investment of initial resources to be competitive but it requires you to execute EXCEEDINGLY WELL to beat your competition..... and if you don't your going to suffer VERY LARGE financial losses. It's the "swing big, miss big" syndrome. On the other hand, niche market products tend to have very little to no market competition. Because of that, they often require very moderate budgets and investment of resources..... and have a pretty high percentage of capturing and holding their market share. Of course, the maximum potential profit is capped.... it's more like investing in a T-bill then buying a lottery ticket. However, as long as they are realistic about their budgets, they can do very well for themselves.
I counted ship time as anything that might be taken as a view from the game "as it is" ... meaning third person exterior views.
Since this particular episode was entirely on the ship, all the remaining time was interior shots with a vast majority going to major characters. One episode wonders had a bit of screen time because they were diplomatic passengers ...
I understand that many people think the show is all about the ship ... but would the show be possible without ever showing the ship once? Maybe not every episode, but the one I watched certainly could have, and it was still a decent show.
If we were to reverse the question and postulate that every episode was an exterior view of the ship, but you could hear the crew talking ... how many minutes of watching the ship with the zipping star effect while listening to the crew would be possible before being driven entirely insane?
Obviously, the perfect answer is to have both in a perfect mix. Choosing either one with the "soon"(TM) promise is going to turn a great deal of people away from the game.
I would've chosen the route of establishing a serious base of roleplayers, who typically earn their own money and have an attention span long enough to watch a full episode (instead of just the combat), and then added the adrenaline junkies, who will likely just stay until something new comes out. I'd argue that there are likely many more people right now using MUDs, chats, java games, whatever they can, to fulfill their Star Trek dreams than there are playing the last Star Trek ship game.
Cryptic has decided to go the route of WAR ... 1.2 million sales to 300,000k subscriptions in less than six months.
STO is a GAME. In the end no matter how much other ... "stuff" is the polite term I'll use I guess, some of you people want to hang on it can change that. It's not TNG sim online. It's not Federation sim online. It's Star Trek Online the GAME. You can't make a GAME, and provide engaging and exciting game play, out of people walking around inside a ship.
But you see, you are missing the point that some of us are trying to make....
Star Trek Online Should be a "Federation Sim Online" type of MMORPG ... at least in the opinion of some of us gamers. AND even if it were a "Federation Sim Online" type of Game, it would still be a game, whether everyone agreed it was or not.
If it was developed as a Federation Silmulation, then at least it would be a "child" of the TV Series and Movies, instead of a "pew pew" scifi shooter game with a Star Trek skin on it. Star Trek WAS all about roleplaying in a sense since 90% of all video footage of the Series and Movies involved the interaction and adventures of the main characters of Star Trek, NOT the ships themselves per se.
So I would say that if the design of STO is based upon "Roleplay" Features first, with Action, Combat systems, Crafting, etc., being added to enhance the "RolePlaying" primary priority of the game design, then STO would be designed correctly when compared to the Star Trek Media (TV and Movies). However, it appears that "RolePlay" in a Star Trek MMO is NOT the design priority of STO, so IMHO it is being designed incorrectly. No matter how much the Fans / Customers want a Space Ship Combat Action Game does NOT change that.
IMHO as it is being developed presently, (as a software platform usable by both PC and Console Gaming systems,) it's own design intent is it's worst enemy. No MMORPG should be developed for Console Gaming until Console technology advances to the point where 100% of what a PC system can deliver is delivered by a Console system. That point has not arrived yet unfortunately. Until Consoles can do what a PC can do with a MMORPG, then any attempt to design a game that works with both will only lead to disappointment for the PC users AND the Console Users. These two groups of Players both want different features and a different experience from a game and the two groups cannot be reconciled.
As for you saying that "stuff...is the polite term I'll use I guess" that you refer to Hagonbak, We are discussing a MMORPG...a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game...
And if you do not want "stuff" ... in effect "Role Playing" stuff in your game, then stop posting on these forums (MMORPG.Com's Forums if I may add) and go find another type of gaming genre to enjoy. As a player of MMORPG's I have heard enough of some Player's demands that anything that has roleplay in a MMORPG should take a back seat to action and combat in an MMORPG, which in reality all game features should take a backseat to Roleplay Features in a MMORPG by default. If you as a Player do not appreciate Roleplaying in a MMO then go play another type of game.
The 'role playing" in the acronym has absolutely nothing to do with what you think it does mate.
Why don't all of you naysayers and fanbois alike wait and see what type of experience the game will provide? Sure, it would be nice to see ship interiors but having them removed may not be a bad thing either. Just wait and see what happens.
It's like telling off your waiter and walking out of a restaurant cuz they only got coke and no pepsi. Open up your mind and be open to different things. You might see something you like.
Why don't all of you naysayers and fanbois alike wait and see what type of experience the game will provide? Sure, it would be nice to see ship interiors but having them removed may not be a bad thing either. Just wait and see what happens. It's like telling off your waiter and walking out of a restaurant cuz they only got coke and no pepsi. Open up your mind and be open to different things. You might see something you like.
Seryth,
No offense, but people generaly know what they like and what they don't like. I hate liver. I'm not going to goto a restaurant if every dish they have on the menu is a liver dish. Is there an off-chance that some-one might produce a liver dish I might find palatable? Sure..... but not worth spending $50 and one of the few nights I can go out for an experience that I am MOST LIKELY going to dislike.... not when there are other restaurants in town. Wouldn't I be better off going to a restaurant that serves a dish that I expect I'm going to like?
Sounds to me like Cryptic is trying to say "We serve liver, but trust us, you'll like our liver. If you don't like the taste of liver then you'll like our liver because it doesn't taste like liver.... unless you like the taste of liver.... in which case it tastes exactly like liver"
Sorry, no sale. They made a decision to cater to a specific segment of the market. No problem with that, it's their development dime. However, they shouldn't expect to get business from people who don't like that particular focus.
I have no problem with a restaurant that says "We serve liver. If you like liver, you'll like eating here. If you don't, you won't."
I do have a problem with a place that serves only liver but is trying to sell me on the idea that it'll taste just like lobster.
These Very few but very vocal die-hard fanboys on here will never see your side of any argument so don't ever bother with them. I swear Cryptic could do away with space and ground action altogether tomorrow and decide to make STO: The Online Star Trek Card Trading Game and these guys would be on here the very next day singing their praises. Acting like it was the best thing possible that could happen to the game. They will never see your point so arguing with them is kinda like yelling at a wall. Quit while you can. When I post here I don't even acknowledge their replies anymore as they are really not worth bothering with. They will just keep going until you get pissed off and you will be the one that will end up getting banned. It's not worth it.
These Very few but very vocal die-hard fanboys on here will never see your side of any argument so don't ever bother with them. I swear Cryptic could do away with space and ground action altogether tomorrow and decide to make STO: The Online Star Trek Card Trading Game and these guys would be on here the very next day singing their praises. Acting like it was the best thing possible that could happen to the game. They will never see your point so arguing with them is kinda like yelling at a wall. Quit while you can. When I post here I don't even acknowledge their replies anymore as they are really not worth bothering with. They will just keep going until you get pissed off and you will be the one that will end up getting banned. It's not worth it.
Bren
Explain to the class how just because a person agrees with a couple of decisions a game development company makes it means they're a "fanboi" please.
Explain to the class how just because a person agrees with a couple of decisions a game development company makes it means they're a "fanboi" please.
A fanboy is someone who has to have the last word in or post a rebuttle after every challenging or unsupported to the developments discussions posts. I'm a LotrO Fanboy but learned a long time ago to let it go.
If you can't see how some of the game play mechanics would be about the same as buying a plastic starship and fly around your house with it, saying to your imaginary crew members to beam you up, then maybe you will love this game. The crew and character development through out the Star Trek series is paramount , and you will see this in the new movie. When you watch the movies, close your eyes when there is only a character on the screen then iopen them only when they show a space ship, and see how much of the film you missed ...
What relevence would that have? STO isn't a sim of the movies, or the different series, it's a GAME.
Way to make up you own definition of "fanboi" though by the way.
I have to admit, this is a strange one, because you had one company promising a certain type of game... and now a new company working hard to deliver something else. So a lot of people emotionally invested in the first concept are busily trying to tear down the second...
However, I think that's wrong.
The best case scenario of the original "instead of a guild we have a crew" concept would result in a game reminiscent of Puzzle Pirates, as far as I can tell. Let's be honest here, throughout most of the different Star Trek series the sheer numbers of people residing on the ship made absolutely no sense at all. Random people walking the halls, school teachers, bar tenders, nameless faceless "crew members" on a ship that could, to all evidence, be flown by 6 people. So, say you've got those 6 people... what are they actually going to do?
I suppose the Science Officer gets to hog the map of any new planet: "Yes Captain, I see three settlements on the planet below."
The Engineer would fix things... basically doing a crafting puzzle whenever something is damaged... there's excitement for you.
The Communications Officer could be the only person allowed to ... um... tune the radio?
And what would the Captain be able to do on this multiplayer crew? Tell people what to do? If we're being series-faithful his only actual "device" is an intercom button.
Seriously, though, the choices here are to make the various "duty stations" abstract puzzles which reward performance... or have the most tedious and boring game ever. Plus, you would have a game where either random crews were constantly being assembled for "missions" out of whoever was online... or a few guilds would do things, while everyone else sat around trying to get a large enough group together to actually take flight.
I know this may ruin the fantasy of some die-hard Trekkers who had envisioned taking the helm with a few hundred people following their every order, and marvelling at their vast knowledge of the Star Trek universe... but seriously, that wasn't going to happen anyway.
Sure, it'd be nice to be able to hang out on the bridge of your ship... but it's not a game-breaker, especially since I get the feeling there will be plenty of missions that involve ship interiors. Frankly, I'd rather have them getting the actual game play done right before they worry about things like this.
I voted no but the lack of one does make me see things in a vastly different light.There are other factors that have not changed such as desire to play a good sci fi game (not eve for me sorry) and familiarity with the ip, I'm a larger fan of the movies and novels more so than any of the tv series. I read in the game informer article that you would be able to travel through space as well as having options that could swiftly take you places, well wouldn't it be a good idea to actually go inside of your ship while taking that long exploratory trip through space?
Also this is Cryptic who I thought really wants to make themselves a force in mmo gaming but this is more a step back than anything else if for no other reason than the polarizing effect of the move will have. There are just too many people who will get pissed off and not play the game to do something like this. Obviously there aren't many saying they won't play it if ship interiors are there.
I can understand if you don't have alot of time to work out interiors in a way you'd like but bare bones I think would do from launch and then adding onto the experience as you can, The game is amazingly further along than any could have expected especially for mmo's which seem to develop sometimes slower than console and offline games so I can't see how time could be a factor.
All in all this revelation has taken much of the excitement I may have had about what Cryptic is doing with the ip I still commend them for taking over so fast and showing what looks mostly like a decent offering but they have lost a whole lot of wiggle room with this move.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Why don't all of you naysayers and fanbois alike wait and see what type of experience the game will provide? Sure, it would be nice to see ship interiors but having them removed may not be a bad thing either. Just wait and see what happens. It's like telling off your waiter and walking out of a restaurant cuz they only got coke and no pepsi. Open up your mind and be open to different things. You might see something you like.
Well said. I wish there was playable merchants and Borg, but you don't see me whining about it in every thread.There are things about the game I like and things I don't like.That's just the way things go. That's why I created the faq thread so that people who want to learn about what is in game won't be misinformed by the false generalities that get thrown in these arguments.
I also notice that many people are using the T.V show as an example and I think that's a mistake. Of course there's more stuff going on in the interior of the ship on an episode of Star Trek because it was a show done on a television budget. So there was a lot of talking and socializing because that what television is. But it isn't something to base a game around.If you want a better comparison, use the movies. There were many battles in space, ship to ship combat,boarding parties and landing crews as this game will have.
This is just my opinion, but I doubt you can keep a MMO going on just walking the corridors of a ship or playing around a holosuite. Some say "Why not both." If Cryptic had the money, I'm sure they would. Unfortunetly like all developers they don't have an endless supply of money to throw at this, so some tough decisions were made. No playbale merchants or borg for me and no free roaming interiors or playable crews for the SIM fans. I think it's too early either way to predict success or failure for a game that isn't even in Beta yet.
Why don't all of you naysayers and fanbois alike wait and see what type of experience the game will provide? Sure, it would be nice to see ship interiors but having them removed may not be a bad thing either. Just wait and see what happens. It's like telling off your waiter and walking out of a restaurant cuz they only got coke and no pepsi. Open up your mind and be open to different things. You might see something you like.
Seryth,
No offense, but people generaly know what they like and what they don't like. I hate liver. I'm not going to goto a restaurant if every dish they have on the menu is a liver dish. Is there an off-chance that some-one might produce a liver dish I might find palatable? Sure..... but not worth spending $50 and one of the few nights I can go out for an experience that I am MOST LIKELY going to dislike.... not when there are other restaurants in town. Wouldn't I be better off going to a restaurant that serves a dish that I expect I'm going to like?
Sounds to me like Cryptic is trying to say "We serve liver, but trust us, you'll like our liver. If you don't like the taste of liver then you'll like our liver because it doesn't taste like liver.... unless you like the taste of liver.... in which case it tastes exactly like liver"
Sorry, no sale. They made a decision to cater to a specific segment of the market. No problem with that, it's their development dime. However, they shouldn't expect to get business from people who don't like that particular focus.
I have no problem with a restaurant that says "We serve liver. If you like liver, you'll like eating here. If you don't, you won't."
I do have a problem with a place that serves only liver but is trying to sell me on the idea that it'll taste just like lobster.
No offense either, but making a similarity between a MMOG and a dish (liver, in your case) is kinda silly. A game is more complex than that. But I think I do understand what you are saying though.
My post was merely expressing my view on how sad it can be that people can and will totally turn away from a prospectively good title based on one feature. That feature, no matter how big or small it may be, may make or break the game. But until the product is delivered and actually seen, I find it preposterous that someone would make a decision without seeing (or at least reading reviews) of a finished product. Open beta, to an extent, while helping devs work on server balance, allows people to get a sneak peak at the game too, provided you're able to participate. Even though none has been announced as of yet, I'm sure there will probably be one.
Also, let's not forget the fact that STO was originally in development by Perpetual Entertainment (Gods & Heroes), which was subsequently canned. I don't know if anyone made any allusions to feature promises made by the previous developer, but the entire game was rewritten from scratch. I have been loosely following the development of this game and don't know for a fact if Cryptic had promised interiors or not. But I'm sure at some point some references are probably being crossed.
I want ship interiors, I really do. I agree that it adds to the Star Trek feel of the game universe, but other ST titles have entertained me without having to fully man a starship interior as this game may or may not provide. Let's be open minded, that's all I'm saying.
Also, let's not forget the fact that STO was originally in development by Perpetual Entertainment (Gods & Heroes), which was subsequently canned. I don't know if anyone made any allusions to feature promises made by the previous developer, but the entire game was rewritten from scratch. I have been loosely following the development of this game and don't know for a fact if Cryptic had promised interiors or not. But I'm sure at some point some references are probably being crossed. I want ship interiors, I really do. I agree that it adds to the Star Trek feel of the game universe, but other ST titles have entertained me without having to fully man a starship interior as this game may or may not provide. Let's be open minded, that's all I'm saying.
Although I can't speak for everyone I do believe that a lot of people such as myself don't think that PE's version of STO has anything to do with Cryptic's. What we do see however is Cryptic making some of the same game-killing mistakes that PE made. Comparing a MMO Star Trek to games like Starfleet Command, Legacy and the Elite Force games really doesn't work as they where combat simulators and nothing more. If they make a MMO version of Star Trek that is nothing more than a combat simulator it will fail as people expect more than that from a MMO. This was the road PE was heading down and it had a lot of people such as myself really worried that the MMO version of Star Trek would be nothing more than a Legacy/EFII bastard hybrid.
Now I'm not going to go as far as say that STO will be a bad game at this point as we can't possibly know from the little info we have. What I can say is that the game direction seems more like a combat sim than a MMO at this point. This would mean that the purist view of what RPG elements should be in a MMO just won't be there(I'm talking about the P&P definition here). This has a lot of people in the MMO community more than a little worried as we really want this game to succeed as the genre really needs a good SciFi game other than EVE. One of the main complaints about EVE is that you are a ship and at least for the space part STO is shaping up to be no different. We expect more from a next generation MMO than that as what we want is not only possible but highly doable given enough time and resources. Cryptic is rushing a game based on an IP that shouldn't be rushed as it could be a whole lot more than what it's shaping up to be. What we fear is we will end up with a run-of-the-mill MMO with Star Trek skins instead of the truly exceptional MMO that could be Star Trek Online.
I'll probably check out STO as an idle curiosity, so this is from the perspective of someone who is not especially interested in the title.
I understand why they're not launching with ship interiors. As long as they don't use it as the "carrot on the stick" to keep people subscribing and actually DO add it post launch, then I'd be cool with it.
If they go the standard MMO route of hemming and hawing about it, making excuses, and otherwise avoiding the subject until - "surprise!" (not really) - it's an expansion feature, then they can shuv off, so to speak.
If they have already said somewhere that it would be a feature in a paid expansion and have NOT been suggesting (directly or indirectly) that it'll be added for free later, then I wouldn't hold it against them if it's an expansion feature. Long sentences for the win, amirite?
Personally? No. Why would I want to sit in a chair at home simulating sitting in a chair on a starship? It's just a way of distancing you from the action and killing time. I could really use a replicator next to my gaming rig though.
This is the problem with the way STO is going. If it just turns into a mindless pew pew game, it will fail.
Why don't all of you naysayers and fanbois alike wait and see what type of experience the game will provide? Sure, it would be nice to see ship interiors but having them removed may not be a bad thing either. Just wait and see what happens. It's like telling off your waiter and walking out of a restaurant cuz they only got coke and no pepsi. Open up your mind and be open to different things. You might see something you like.
Seryth,
No offense, but people generaly know what they like and what they don't like. I hate liver. I'm not going to goto a restaurant if every dish they have on the menu is a liver dish. Is there an off-chance that some-one might produce a liver dish I might find palatable? Sure..... but not worth spending $50 and one of the few nights I can go out for an experience that I am MOST LIKELY going to dislike.... not when there are other restaurants in town. Wouldn't I be better off going to a restaurant that serves a dish that I expect I'm going to like?
Sounds to me like Cryptic is trying to say "We serve liver, but trust us, you'll like our liver. If you don't like the taste of liver then you'll like our liver because it doesn't taste like liver.... unless you like the taste of liver.... in which case it tastes exactly like liver"
Sorry, no sale. They made a decision to cater to a specific segment of the market. No problem with that, it's their development dime. However, they shouldn't expect to get business from people who don't like that particular focus.
I have no problem with a restaurant that says "We serve liver. If you like liver, you'll like eating here. If you don't, you won't."
I do have a problem with a place that serves only liver but is trying to sell me on the idea that it'll taste just like lobster.
No offense either, but making a similarity between a MMOG and a dish (liver, in your case) is kinda silly. A game is more complex than that. But I think I do understand what you are saying though.
My post was merely expressing my view on how sad it can be that people can and will totally turn away from a prospectively good title based on one feature. That feature, no matter how big or small it may be, may make or break the game. But until the product is delivered and actually seen, I find it preposterous that someone would make a decision without seeing (or at least reading reviews) of a finished product. Open beta, to an extent, while helping devs work on server balance, allows people to get a sneak peak at the game too, provided you're able to participate. Even though none has been announced as of yet, I'm sure there will probably be one.
Also, let's not forget the fact that STO was originally in development by Perpetual Entertainment (Gods & Heroes), which was subsequently canned. I don't know if anyone made any allusions to feature promises made by the previous developer, but the entire game was rewritten from scratch. I have been loosely following the development of this game and don't know for a fact if Cryptic had promised interiors or not. But I'm sure at some point some references are probably being crossed.
I want ship interiors, I really do. I agree that it adds to the Star Trek feel of the game universe, but other ST titles have entertained me without having to fully man a starship interior as this game may or may not provide. Let's be open minded, that's all I'm saying.
Actually, I'm begining to wonder if the entire game WAS actually rewritten from scratch. The only reason I say that is because they seem to be making many of the same (controversial) design decisions that PE did. I wonder if some of these decisions aren't based on a desire to reuse existing work in order to keep costs down.
Then again, I know nothing about thier internals.
In essence what I see them doing is hyping that the game will be a deep RP and social experience but then making design decisions that seem to all work directly counter to that purpose.
This isn't simply whether you can play a "Tellarite" or not....
Whether you CAN have multiplayer crews has a MAJOR impact on the opportunity for cooperative play, socialization and role-play.
Whether you CAN interact with other human beings aboard your ship has a MAJOR impact on the opportunity for cooperative play, socialization and role-play.
Whether you CAN play ANY other role besides commander of a ship has a MAJOR impact on the opportunity for cooperative play, socialization and role-play.
It's pretty much indicative of the design direction for the game.
Actually, I'm begining to wonder if the entire game WAS actually rewritten from scratch. The only reason I say that is because they seem to be making many of the same (controversial) design decisions that PE did. I wonder if some of these decisions aren't based on a desire to reuse existing work in order to keep costs down.
Then again, I know nothing about thier internals.
In essence what I see them doing is hyping that the game will be a deep RP and social experience but then making design decisions that seem to all work directly counter to that purpose.
This isn't simply whether you can play a "Tellarite" or not....
Whether you CAN have multiplayer crews has a MAJOR impact on the opportunity for cooperative play, socialization and role-play.
Whether you CAN interact with other human beings aboard your ship has a MAJOR impact on the opportunity for cooperative play, socialization and role-play.
Whether you CAN play ANY other role besides commander of a ship has a MAJOR impact on the opportunity for cooperative play, socialization and role-play.
It's pretty much indicative of the design direction for the game.
It doesn't have any impact on the opportunities for cooperative play or socialization at all. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. The Big Goose Egg. Etc.
There will be all kinds of ways for players to play cooperatively, and ample opportunity for players to socialize, both while they're aboard their ship, and outside of their ships. Just as many as in any other mmo out there, and from the sounds of it, more than most.
It also only impacts the roleplay for those that are narrow minded and/or unskilled and unimaginative at it enough to let it.
Comments
I counted ship time as anything that might be taken as a view from the game "as it is" ... meaning third person exterior views.
Since this particular episode was entirely on the ship, all the remaining time was interior shots with a vast majority going to major characters. One episode wonders had a bit of screen time because they were diplomatic passengers ...
I understand that many people think the show is all about the ship ... but would the show be possible without ever showing the ship once? Maybe not every episode, but the one I watched certainly could have, and it was still a decent show.
If we were to reverse the question and postulate that every episode was an exterior view of the ship, but you could hear the crew talking ... how many minutes of watching the ship with the zipping star effect while listening to the crew would be possible before being driven entirely insane?
Obviously, the perfect answer is to have both in a perfect mix. Choosing either one with the "soon"(TM) promise is going to turn a great deal of people away from the game.
I would've chosen the route of establishing a serious base of roleplayers, who typically earn their own money and have an attention span long enough to watch a full episode (instead of just the combat), and then added the adrenaline junkies, who will likely just stay until something new comes out. I'd argue that there are likely many more people right now using MUDs, chats, java games, whatever they can, to fulfill their Star Trek dreams than there are playing the last Star Trek ship game.
Cryptic has decided to go the route of WAR ... 1.2 million sales to 300,000k subscriptions in less than six months.
STO is a GAME. In the end no matter how much other ... "stuff" is the polite term I'll use I guess, some of you people want to hang on it can change that. It's not TNG sim online. It's not Federation sim online. It's Star Trek Online the GAME. You can't make a GAME, and provide engaging and exciting game play, out of people walking around inside a ship.
I'll try to rember that the next time I play HALO
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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So , you think that selling out to non Star Trek Fans is in the best interest to an IP as massive as Star Trek ? That makes a lot of sense.....
With IP like Star trek, if your not building a world for the fans, you have already dug the grave to the games end.
What Star Trek fans do you mean? I've been a Star Trek fan for @35 years (would have been longer if we would have had a TV with more than one channel where I was living before we did) and I don't feel they've "sold out" at all, and I feel that they're doing just fine "building a world" for me.
IMO
They need to put the ship interiors in. It not only would be immersive to the star trek universe, but also kinda serves as player housing.
To me its a possible make or break situation. If the game has great reviews by players then I may still try it.
Played : WOW, LOTRO, COH/COV, EQ2, SWG, and WAR.
Playing EVE Online and AOC.
Wtg for SW:TOR and WOD
I counted ship time as anything that might be taken as a view from the game "as it is" ... meaning third person exterior views.
Since this particular episode was entirely on the ship, all the remaining time was interior shots with a vast majority going to major characters. One episode wonders had a bit of screen time because they were diplomatic passengers ...
I understand that many people think the show is all about the ship ... but would the show be possible without ever showing the ship once? Maybe not every episode, but the one I watched certainly could have, and it was still a decent show.
If we were to reverse the question and postulate that every episode was an exterior view of the ship, but you could hear the crew talking ... how many minutes of watching the ship with the zipping star effect while listening to the crew would be possible before being driven entirely insane?
Obviously, the perfect answer is to have both in a perfect mix. Choosing either one with the "soon"(TM) promise is going to turn a great deal of people away from the game.
I would've chosen the route of establishing a serious base of roleplayers, who typically earn their own money and have an attention span long enough to watch a full episode (instead of just the combat), and then added the adrenaline junkies, who will likely just stay until something new comes out. I'd argue that there are likely many more people right now using MUDs, chats, java games, whatever they can, to fulfill their Star Trek dreams than there are playing the last Star Trek ship game.
Cryptic has decided to go the route of WAR ... 1.2 million sales to 300,000k subscriptions in less than six months.
STO is a GAME. In the end no matter how much other ... "stuff" is the polite term I'll use I guess, some of you people want to hang on it can change that. It's not TNG sim online. It's not Federation sim online. It's Star Trek Online the GAME. You can't make a GAME, and provide engaging and exciting game play, out of people walking around inside a ship.
But you see, you are missing the point that some of us are trying to make....
Star Trek Online Should be a "Federation Sim Online" type of MMORPG ... at least in the opinion of some of us gamers. AND even if it were a "Federation Sim Online" type of Game, it would still be a game, whether everyone agreed it was or not.
If it was developed as a Federation Silmulation, then at least it would be a "child" of the TV Series and Movies, instead of a "pew pew" scifi shooter game with a Star Trek skin on it. Star Trek WAS all about roleplaying in a sense since 90% of all video footage of the Series and Movies involved the interaction and adventures of the main characters of Star Trek, NOT the ships themselves per se.
So I would say that if the design of STO is based upon "Roleplay" Features first, with Action, Combat systems, Crafting, etc., being added to enhance the "RolePlaying" primary priority of the game design, then STO would be designed correctly when compared to the Star Trek Media (TV and Movies). However, it appears that "RolePlay" in a Star Trek MMO is NOT the design priority of STO, so IMHO it is being designed incorrectly. No matter how much the Fans / Customers want a Space Ship Combat Action Game does NOT change that.
IMHO as it is being developed presently, (as a software platform usable by both PC and Console Gaming systems,) it's own design intent is it's worst enemy. No MMORPG should be developed for Console Gaming until Console technology advances to the point where 100% of what a PC system can deliver is delivered by a Console system. That point has not arrived yet unfortunately. Until Consoles can do what a PC can do with a MMORPG, then any attempt to design a game that works with both will only lead to disappointment for the PC users AND the Console Users. These two groups of Players both want different features and a different experience from a game and the two groups cannot be reconciled.
As for you saying that "stuff...is the polite term I'll use I guess" that you refer to Hagonbak, We are discussing a MMORPG...a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game...
And if you do not want "stuff" ... in effect "Role Playing" stuff in your game, then stop posting on these forums (MMORPG.Com's Forums if I may add) and go find another type of gaming genre to enjoy. As a player of MMORPG's I have heard enough of some Player's demands that anything that has roleplay in a MMORPG should take a back seat to action and combat in an MMORPG, which in reality all game features should take a backseat to Roleplay Features in a MMORPG by default. If you as a Player do not appreciate Roleplaying in a MMO then go play another type of game.
1) I love how you know why I'm "really" here better then I do. I guess next you'll have me flying around in a black helicopter too.
2) Working for a Developer in a different verticle (not gaming), I have a little insight into how certain projects like this go down. I think you'd be very surprised how many major projects get developed with little to no market research.... or the generaly haphazard nature of the research that is conducted.
3) I do believe that there are companies out there that do decent market research. I do NOT believe that market research consists of "Lets have Hagonbok tell us the way it is". I do NOT believe that you have access to any real market research on these issues. If you do, you certainly haven't cited it any of it as support for your arguements. Does Cryptic make good use of market research....shrug... I don't have any inside knowledge of their practices...so no idea. The titles they produce seem to do ok....but certainly not generaly runaway success. I'm not sure what that is indicative.
4) The reason for many of the duds lately have less to do with catering to "special interests" or "thinking they know better then gamers" or alot of the other stuff that you want to spew then they do with mis-management on purely technical or financial basis. In part that's due to setting unrealistic expectations (i.e. If you are banking on getting WOW style subscriptions in the first 6 months and setting your budgets based upon those predictions.... something that WAY too many companies fall victem of...then you are setting yourself up for failure). In part it's because projects of this complexity demand both excellent project management skills and very strong discipline among senior management.....and both of those tend to be a rare commodity in the industry.
I'm also willing to bet that alot of the projects you might consider "duds" actually aren't. Many games, including many limited market games, are actually quite financialy successfull. The key is setting your production budget in line with realistic expectations on return.
I don't think the game alot of us would prefer to see Cryptic make would be a "niche" market product. However, purely as an aside, niche market products CAN actualy have a much higher chance of financial success then mass market products. The reason is simple, there is ALOT of competition in the mass market. It requires not only a VERY LARGE investment of initial resources to be competitive but it requires you to execute EXCEEDINGLY WELL to beat your competition..... and if you don't your going to suffer VERY LARGE financial losses. It's the "swing big, miss big" syndrome. On the other hand, niche market products tend to have very little to no market competition. Because of that, they often require very moderate budgets and investment of resources..... and have a pretty high percentage of capturing and holding their market share. Of course, the maximum potential profit is capped.... it's more like investing in a T-bill then buying a lottery ticket. However, as long as they are realistic about their budgets, they can do very well for themselves.
I counted ship time as anything that might be taken as a view from the game "as it is" ... meaning third person exterior views.
Since this particular episode was entirely on the ship, all the remaining time was interior shots with a vast majority going to major characters. One episode wonders had a bit of screen time because they were diplomatic passengers ...
I understand that many people think the show is all about the ship ... but would the show be possible without ever showing the ship once? Maybe not every episode, but the one I watched certainly could have, and it was still a decent show.
If we were to reverse the question and postulate that every episode was an exterior view of the ship, but you could hear the crew talking ... how many minutes of watching the ship with the zipping star effect while listening to the crew would be possible before being driven entirely insane?
Obviously, the perfect answer is to have both in a perfect mix. Choosing either one with the "soon"(TM) promise is going to turn a great deal of people away from the game.
I would've chosen the route of establishing a serious base of roleplayers, who typically earn their own money and have an attention span long enough to watch a full episode (instead of just the combat), and then added the adrenaline junkies, who will likely just stay until something new comes out. I'd argue that there are likely many more people right now using MUDs, chats, java games, whatever they can, to fulfill their Star Trek dreams than there are playing the last Star Trek ship game.
Cryptic has decided to go the route of WAR ... 1.2 million sales to 300,000k subscriptions in less than six months.
STO is a GAME. In the end no matter how much other ... "stuff" is the polite term I'll use I guess, some of you people want to hang on it can change that. It's not TNG sim online. It's not Federation sim online. It's Star Trek Online the GAME. You can't make a GAME, and provide engaging and exciting game play, out of people walking around inside a ship.
But you see, you are missing the point that some of us are trying to make....
Star Trek Online Should be a "Federation Sim Online" type of MMORPG ... at least in the opinion of some of us gamers. AND even if it were a "Federation Sim Online" type of Game, it would still be a game, whether everyone agreed it was or not.
If it was developed as a Federation Silmulation, then at least it would be a "child" of the TV Series and Movies, instead of a "pew pew" scifi shooter game with a Star Trek skin on it. Star Trek WAS all about roleplaying in a sense since 90% of all video footage of the Series and Movies involved the interaction and adventures of the main characters of Star Trek, NOT the ships themselves per se.
So I would say that if the design of STO is based upon "Roleplay" Features first, with Action, Combat systems, Crafting, etc., being added to enhance the "RolePlaying" primary priority of the game design, then STO would be designed correctly when compared to the Star Trek Media (TV and Movies). However, it appears that "RolePlay" in a Star Trek MMO is NOT the design priority of STO, so IMHO it is being designed incorrectly. No matter how much the Fans / Customers want a Space Ship Combat Action Game does NOT change that.
IMHO as it is being developed presently, (as a software platform usable by both PC and Console Gaming systems,) it's own design intent is it's worst enemy. No MMORPG should be developed for Console Gaming until Console technology advances to the point where 100% of what a PC system can deliver is delivered by a Console system. That point has not arrived yet unfortunately. Until Consoles can do what a PC can do with a MMORPG, then any attempt to design a game that works with both will only lead to disappointment for the PC users AND the Console Users. These two groups of Players both want different features and a different experience from a game and the two groups cannot be reconciled.
As for you saying that "stuff...is the polite term I'll use I guess" that you refer to Hagonbak, We are discussing a MMORPG...a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game...
And if you do not want "stuff" ... in effect "Role Playing" stuff in your game, then stop posting on these forums (MMORPG.Com's Forums if I may add) and go find another type of gaming genre to enjoy. As a player of MMORPG's I have heard enough of some Player's demands that anything that has roleplay in a MMORPG should take a back seat to action and combat in an MMORPG, which in reality all game features should take a backseat to Roleplay Features in a MMORPG by default. If you as a Player do not appreciate Roleplaying in a MMO then go play another type of game.
The 'role playing" in the acronym has absolutely nothing to do with what you think it does mate.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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Why don't all of you naysayers and fanbois alike wait and see what type of experience the game will provide? Sure, it would be nice to see ship interiors but having them removed may not be a bad thing either. Just wait and see what happens.
It's like telling off your waiter and walking out of a restaurant cuz they only got coke and no pepsi. Open up your mind and be open to different things. You might see something you like.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
LOL, yeah....can't wait to see the emotes... "The USS Enterprise opens it's porthole and winks at you....it knows what's going on."
Seryth,
No offense, but people generaly know what they like and what they don't like. I hate liver. I'm not going to goto a restaurant if every dish they have on the menu is a liver dish. Is there an off-chance that some-one might produce a liver dish I might find palatable? Sure..... but not worth spending $50 and one of the few nights I can go out for an experience that I am MOST LIKELY going to dislike.... not when there are other restaurants in town. Wouldn't I be better off going to a restaurant that serves a dish that I expect I'm going to like?
Sounds to me like Cryptic is trying to say "We serve liver, but trust us, you'll like our liver. If you don't like the taste of liver then you'll like our liver because it doesn't taste like liver.... unless you like the taste of liver.... in which case it tastes exactly like liver"
Sorry, no sale. They made a decision to cater to a specific segment of the market. No problem with that, it's their development dime. However, they shouldn't expect to get business from people who don't like that particular focus.
I have no problem with a restaurant that says "We serve liver. If you like liver, you'll like eating here. If you don't, you won't."
I do have a problem with a place that serves only liver but is trying to sell me on the idea that it'll taste just like lobster.
These Very few but very vocal die-hard fanboys on here will never see your side of any argument so don't ever bother with them. I swear Cryptic could do away with space and ground action altogether tomorrow and decide to make STO: The Online Star Trek Card Trading Game and these guys would be on here the very next day singing their praises. Acting like it was the best thing possible that could happen to the game. They will never see your point so arguing with them is kinda like yelling at a wall. Quit while you can. When I post here I don't even acknowledge their replies anymore as they are really not worth bothering with. They will just keep going until you get pissed off and you will be the one that will end up getting banned. It's not worth it.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Explain to the class how just because a person agrees with a couple of decisions a game development company makes it means they're a "fanboi" please.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
Explain to the class how just because a person agrees with a couple of decisions a game development company makes it means they're a "fanboi" please.
A fanboy is someone who has to have the last word in or post a rebuttle after every challenging or unsupported to the developments discussions posts. I'm a LotrO Fanboy but learned a long time ago to let it go.
If you can't see how some of the game play mechanics would be about the same as buying a plastic starship and fly around your house with it, saying to your imaginary crew members to beam you up, then maybe you will love this game. The crew and character development through out the Star Trek series is paramount , and you will see this in the new movie. When you watch the movies, close your eyes when there is only a character on the screen then iopen them only when they show a space ship, and see how much of the film you missed ...
What relevence would that have? STO isn't a sim of the movies, or the different series, it's a GAME.
Way to make up you own definition of "fanboi" though by the way.
I have to admit, this is a strange one, because you had one company promising a certain type of game... and now a new company working hard to deliver something else. So a lot of people emotionally invested in the first concept are busily trying to tear down the second...
However, I think that's wrong.
The best case scenario of the original "instead of a guild we have a crew" concept would result in a game reminiscent of Puzzle Pirates, as far as I can tell. Let's be honest here, throughout most of the different Star Trek series the sheer numbers of people residing on the ship made absolutely no sense at all. Random people walking the halls, school teachers, bar tenders, nameless faceless "crew members" on a ship that could, to all evidence, be flown by 6 people. So, say you've got those 6 people... what are they actually going to do?
I suppose the Science Officer gets to hog the map of any new planet: "Yes Captain, I see three settlements on the planet below."
The Engineer would fix things... basically doing a crafting puzzle whenever something is damaged... there's excitement for you.
The Communications Officer could be the only person allowed to ... um... tune the radio?
And what would the Captain be able to do on this multiplayer crew? Tell people what to do? If we're being series-faithful his only actual "device" is an intercom button.
Seriously, though, the choices here are to make the various "duty stations" abstract puzzles which reward performance... or have the most tedious and boring game ever. Plus, you would have a game where either random crews were constantly being assembled for "missions" out of whoever was online... or a few guilds would do things, while everyone else sat around trying to get a large enough group together to actually take flight.
I know this may ruin the fantasy of some die-hard Trekkers who had envisioned taking the helm with a few hundred people following their every order, and marvelling at their vast knowledge of the Star Trek universe... but seriously, that wasn't going to happen anyway.
Sure, it'd be nice to be able to hang out on the bridge of your ship... but it's not a game-breaker, especially since I get the feeling there will be plenty of missions that involve ship interiors. Frankly, I'd rather have them getting the actual game play done right before they worry about things like this.
I voted no but the lack of one does make me see things in a vastly different light.There are other factors that have not changed such as desire to play a good sci fi game (not eve for me sorry) and familiarity with the ip, I'm a larger fan of the movies and novels more so than any of the tv series. I read in the game informer article that you would be able to travel through space as well as having options that could swiftly take you places, well wouldn't it be a good idea to actually go inside of your ship while taking that long exploratory trip through space?
Also this is Cryptic who I thought really wants to make themselves a force in mmo gaming but this is more a step back than anything else if for no other reason than the polarizing effect of the move will have. There are just too many people who will get pissed off and not play the game to do something like this. Obviously there aren't many saying they won't play it if ship interiors are there.
I can understand if you don't have alot of time to work out interiors in a way you'd like but bare bones I think would do from launch and then adding onto the experience as you can, The game is amazingly further along than any could have expected especially for mmo's which seem to develop sometimes slower than console and offline games so I can't see how time could be a factor.
All in all this revelation has taken much of the excitement I may have had about what Cryptic is doing with the ip I still commend them for taking over so fast and showing what looks mostly like a decent offering but they have lost a whole lot of wiggle room with this move.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Well said. I wish there was playable merchants and Borg, but you don't see me whining about it in every thread.There are things about the game I like and things I don't like.That's just the way things go. That's why I created the faq thread so that people who want to learn about what is in game won't be misinformed by the false generalities that get thrown in these arguments.
I also notice that many people are using the T.V show as an example and I think that's a mistake. Of course there's more stuff going on in the interior of the ship on an episode of Star Trek because it was a show done on a television budget. So there was a lot of talking and socializing because that what television is. But it isn't something to base a game around.If you want a better comparison, use the movies. There were many battles in space, ship to ship combat,boarding parties and landing crews as this game will have.
This is just my opinion, but I doubt you can keep a MMO going on just walking the corridors of a ship or playing around a holosuite. Some say "Why not both." If Cryptic had the money, I'm sure they would. Unfortunetly like all developers they don't have an endless supply of money to throw at this, so some tough decisions were made. No playbale merchants or borg for me and no free roaming interiors or playable crews for the SIM fans. I think it's too early either way to predict success or failure for a game that isn't even in Beta yet.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Seryth,
No offense, but people generaly know what they like and what they don't like. I hate liver. I'm not going to goto a restaurant if every dish they have on the menu is a liver dish. Is there an off-chance that some-one might produce a liver dish I might find palatable? Sure..... but not worth spending $50 and one of the few nights I can go out for an experience that I am MOST LIKELY going to dislike.... not when there are other restaurants in town. Wouldn't I be better off going to a restaurant that serves a dish that I expect I'm going to like?
Sounds to me like Cryptic is trying to say "We serve liver, but trust us, you'll like our liver. If you don't like the taste of liver then you'll like our liver because it doesn't taste like liver.... unless you like the taste of liver.... in which case it tastes exactly like liver"
Sorry, no sale. They made a decision to cater to a specific segment of the market. No problem with that, it's their development dime. However, they shouldn't expect to get business from people who don't like that particular focus.
I have no problem with a restaurant that says "We serve liver. If you like liver, you'll like eating here. If you don't, you won't."
I do have a problem with a place that serves only liver but is trying to sell me on the idea that it'll taste just like lobster.
No offense either, but making a similarity between a MMOG and a dish (liver, in your case) is kinda silly. A game is more complex than that. But I think I do understand what you are saying though.
My post was merely expressing my view on how sad it can be that people can and will totally turn away from a prospectively good title based on one feature. That feature, no matter how big or small it may be, may make or break the game. But until the product is delivered and actually seen, I find it preposterous that someone would make a decision without seeing (or at least reading reviews) of a finished product. Open beta, to an extent, while helping devs work on server balance, allows people to get a sneak peak at the game too, provided you're able to participate. Even though none has been announced as of yet, I'm sure there will probably be one.
Also, let's not forget the fact that STO was originally in development by Perpetual Entertainment (Gods & Heroes), which was subsequently canned. I don't know if anyone made any allusions to feature promises made by the previous developer, but the entire game was rewritten from scratch. I have been loosely following the development of this game and don't know for a fact if Cryptic had promised interiors or not. But I'm sure at some point some references are probably being crossed.
I want ship interiors, I really do. I agree that it adds to the Star Trek feel of the game universe, but other ST titles have entertained me without having to fully man a starship interior as this game may or may not provide. Let's be open minded, that's all I'm saying.
Although I can't speak for everyone I do believe that a lot of people such as myself don't think that PE's version of STO has anything to do with Cryptic's. What we do see however is Cryptic making some of the same game-killing mistakes that PE made. Comparing a MMO Star Trek to games like Starfleet Command, Legacy and the Elite Force games really doesn't work as they where combat simulators and nothing more. If they make a MMO version of Star Trek that is nothing more than a combat simulator it will fail as people expect more than that from a MMO. This was the road PE was heading down and it had a lot of people such as myself really worried that the MMO version of Star Trek would be nothing more than a Legacy/EFII bastard hybrid.
Now I'm not going to go as far as say that STO will be a bad game at this point as we can't possibly know from the little info we have. What I can say is that the game direction seems more like a combat sim than a MMO at this point. This would mean that the purist view of what RPG elements should be in a MMO just won't be there(I'm talking about the P&P definition here). This has a lot of people in the MMO community more than a little worried as we really want this game to succeed as the genre really needs a good SciFi game other than EVE. One of the main complaints about EVE is that you are a ship and at least for the space part STO is shaping up to be no different. We expect more from a next generation MMO than that as what we want is not only possible but highly doable given enough time and resources. Cryptic is rushing a game based on an IP that shouldn't be rushed as it could be a whole lot more than what it's shaping up to be. What we fear is we will end up with a run-of-the-mill MMO with Star Trek skins instead of the truly exceptional MMO that could be Star Trek Online.
Bren
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I'll probably check out STO as an idle curiosity, so this is from the perspective of someone who is not especially interested in the title.
I understand why they're not launching with ship interiors. As long as they don't use it as the "carrot on the stick" to keep people subscribing and actually DO add it post launch, then I'd be cool with it.
If they go the standard MMO route of hemming and hawing about it, making excuses, and otherwise avoiding the subject until - "surprise!" (not really) - it's an expansion feature, then they can shuv off, so to speak.
If they have already said somewhere that it would be a feature in a paid expansion and have NOT been suggesting (directly or indirectly) that it'll be added for free later, then I wouldn't hold it against them if it's an expansion feature. Long sentences for the win, amirite?
Meh. We'll see.
This is the problem with the way STO is going. If it just turns into a mindless pew pew game, it will fail.
Seryth,
No offense, but people generaly know what they like and what they don't like. I hate liver. I'm not going to goto a restaurant if every dish they have on the menu is a liver dish. Is there an off-chance that some-one might produce a liver dish I might find palatable? Sure..... but not worth spending $50 and one of the few nights I can go out for an experience that I am MOST LIKELY going to dislike.... not when there are other restaurants in town. Wouldn't I be better off going to a restaurant that serves a dish that I expect I'm going to like?
Sounds to me like Cryptic is trying to say "We serve liver, but trust us, you'll like our liver. If you don't like the taste of liver then you'll like our liver because it doesn't taste like liver.... unless you like the taste of liver.... in which case it tastes exactly like liver"
Sorry, no sale. They made a decision to cater to a specific segment of the market. No problem with that, it's their development dime. However, they shouldn't expect to get business from people who don't like that particular focus.
I have no problem with a restaurant that says "We serve liver. If you like liver, you'll like eating here. If you don't, you won't."
I do have a problem with a place that serves only liver but is trying to sell me on the idea that it'll taste just like lobster.
No offense either, but making a similarity between a MMOG and a dish (liver, in your case) is kinda silly. A game is more complex than that. But I think I do understand what you are saying though.
My post was merely expressing my view on how sad it can be that people can and will totally turn away from a prospectively good title based on one feature. That feature, no matter how big or small it may be, may make or break the game. But until the product is delivered and actually seen, I find it preposterous that someone would make a decision without seeing (or at least reading reviews) of a finished product. Open beta, to an extent, while helping devs work on server balance, allows people to get a sneak peak at the game too, provided you're able to participate. Even though none has been announced as of yet, I'm sure there will probably be one.
Also, let's not forget the fact that STO was originally in development by Perpetual Entertainment (Gods & Heroes), which was subsequently canned. I don't know if anyone made any allusions to feature promises made by the previous developer, but the entire game was rewritten from scratch. I have been loosely following the development of this game and don't know for a fact if Cryptic had promised interiors or not. But I'm sure at some point some references are probably being crossed.
I want ship interiors, I really do. I agree that it adds to the Star Trek feel of the game universe, but other ST titles have entertained me without having to fully man a starship interior as this game may or may not provide. Let's be open minded, that's all I'm saying.
Actually, I'm begining to wonder if the entire game WAS actually rewritten from scratch. The only reason I say that is because they seem to be making many of the same (controversial) design decisions that PE did. I wonder if some of these decisions aren't based on a desire to reuse existing work in order to keep costs down.
Then again, I know nothing about thier internals.
In essence what I see them doing is hyping that the game will be a deep RP and social experience but then making design decisions that seem to all work directly counter to that purpose.
This isn't simply whether you can play a "Tellarite" or not....
Whether you CAN have multiplayer crews has a MAJOR impact on the opportunity for cooperative play, socialization and role-play.
Whether you CAN interact with other human beings aboard your ship has a MAJOR impact on the opportunity for cooperative play, socialization and role-play.
Whether you CAN play ANY other role besides commander of a ship has a MAJOR impact on the opportunity for cooperative play, socialization and role-play.
It's pretty much indicative of the design direction for the game.
Actually, I'm begining to wonder if the entire game WAS actually rewritten from scratch. The only reason I say that is because they seem to be making many of the same (controversial) design decisions that PE did. I wonder if some of these decisions aren't based on a desire to reuse existing work in order to keep costs down.
Then again, I know nothing about thier internals.
In essence what I see them doing is hyping that the game will be a deep RP and social experience but then making design decisions that seem to all work directly counter to that purpose.
This isn't simply whether you can play a "Tellarite" or not....
Whether you CAN have multiplayer crews has a MAJOR impact on the opportunity for cooperative play, socialization and role-play.
Whether you CAN interact with other human beings aboard your ship has a MAJOR impact on the opportunity for cooperative play, socialization and role-play.
Whether you CAN play ANY other role besides commander of a ship has a MAJOR impact on the opportunity for cooperative play, socialization and role-play.
It's pretty much indicative of the design direction for the game.
It doesn't have any impact on the opportunities for cooperative play or socialization at all. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. The Big Goose Egg. Etc.
There will be all kinds of ways for players to play cooperatively, and ample opportunity for players to socialize, both while they're aboard their ship, and outside of their ships. Just as many as in any other mmo out there, and from the sounds of it, more than most.
It also only impacts the roleplay for those that are narrow minded and/or unskilled and unimaginative at it enough to let it.