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Some "trick" to the combat?
WSIMike
Member Posts: 5,564
Hello,
I decided to give DDO another try, having seen that they've re-done the starting area (much more interesting now), enhanced the graphics with DX10 (looks much better as well), and so forth...
I remember having played this in the past and really enjoying various aspects of it:
- AD&D character development - What's not to like?
- Excellent Dungeon Designs - The look and feel of the dungeons are excellent and I wish more games implemented actual puzzles, traps, etc. like DDO does.
- Great looking environments
- Good looking characters/creatures
- DM Voice-overs enhance the AD&D experience
I also remember something about it just not "clicking" with me. After playing it for a bit, I remember what it was:
The combat.
As much as I enjoy everything else about the game so far... the combat system is really keeping me from loving it completely.
I understand the concept of "action-based" combat, where you're not standing in one spot with a locked target, exchanging blows. But I can't help but feel the fights feel clumsy and chaotic. I'm swinging away, with no real indication of when I'm connecting other than the small red numbers floating up. The enemies are skating and spinning all around me, I'm trying to keep pace and the whole experience just feels very "spastic".
If you stand still, you're more likely to be hit (or so I've been told), so the point is to keep moving. I figure enemies moving around so much is them reacting to my movement. Thing is, even when I am standing still, the creatures are flitting all over the place in some crazed "hit me if you can!" routine.
The only difference I see in fighting a normal creature compared to a tougher one (like an encounter boss, etc) is they have more hit-points, and so the wild flailing and spinning in circles lasts longer.
In all cases it's the same, half-way through the fights, I'm just thinking "Ugh... this is so uninspiring".
Yet... I read these posts about CC, and flanking and tanking and tactics... and I have to wonder... how or when do these things come into play? Is it only in groups where a battle is going to have some semblence of "control" or flow?
To be clear.. I have no problem with fights being action-based rather than "lock target, stand there and press buttons". It's just that DDO's implementation seems awfully "sloppy" to me.
... is there something I'm missing here?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
In the starting area the mobs are quite weak they will move around to keep themselves alive as you progress bigger monsters will quite happily stand toe to toe with you. In fact the first time an ogre takes a windup and does a flying smash you will realise putting yourself anywhere else feels a lot more comfortable.
If you are finding the melee a bit frantic try another class, casters for instance involves less mob tracking and more making sure you don't annoy more than you can handle. Ranger is a nice class if you want to switch between the two.
Finally in melee it isn't essential to move as much if you aren't getting your backside kicked. You can make them come to you as long as someone takes the ranged attackers out. The trick is knowing when to disengage because you are not winning to give yourself a breather.
Keep at it, I have known a few people that the combat felt very uncomfortable to start with and ended up annoyed by other MMOs when they couldn't dive for cover to avoid an incoming fireball.
What Dr. Rock said, plus some explanation.
Although it may not seem like that sometimes, monsters (even the weak, or especially the weak ones) try to flank you. This means having two or more monsters on both your sides. That way you're (in D&D rules) easier to hit, as you don't have eyes on your back
. This is +2 bonus to hit, which applies both to monsters and you + your groupmates. Better players try to flank enemies wisely.
Other than that, movin around and swirling is more realistic than standing still (unless there's 1 vs 1 - and they're jousting knights). Nobedy wants to get hit, but everyone wants to hit vulnerable spots.
So I think that's just passing impression "something's wrong". I never really had it. Uh, maybe I had on Khorthos Island, where Sahuagins sometimes seem like they're lagging
. Or they're really lagging.
But yeah, I'd like to see some mini-knockback animation when a monster gets hit. Not moving it back, but reacting to my blow. I don't know how would it need to be implemented to be always represented, but seems fun in theory. But in fact, in WoW or most other MMOs it's really the same.
In comparison with WoW, moving around don't get monsters any benefit, or very rarely. So they don't do it (unrealistic). And players in WoW try to get behind other player just to make him unable to use his auto targetted abilities. That's way more weird to me, when someone jumps over me so I can't cast a fireball or use many other abilities at all
.
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I do not play this game, but a real fight is always chaotic and clumsy feeling. Seriously, when have you been in a real fight and had time to contemplate on wether to punch the guy in his face or take his legs out? Unless hes just painfully running in slow motion, you won't get the chance. And that's exactly what you should look for in FPS type combat. If this is not combat you like, then static combat is what your looking for which resembles more of fantasy fighting.
Yes tactics come more into play with groups when you are able to use things like flanking and backstabbing and aggro control. When you are solo you are the only target for the Mobs so of course tactics like flanking are impossible to use. I would suggest learning to use trip and stunning blow if you are playing a fighter. Or if you have a caster learn the uses of your crowd control spells. I always thought combat should be chaotic, the idea is to win not play by imaginary rules.
Yes Mobs move around a lot, standing still and taking a beating are not good ideas if survival is the goal. Makessense that the Mobs are not going to make life easy for you, and you should not make it easy for them. If you stand still why would the mob choose to do the same? Mobs and especially ones that are ranged or casters will move to try and put space between you and them to do what they do best. It is still a work in progress for sure.
"AD&D character development - What's not to like?"
DDO is absolutely NOTHING like AD&D. Please do not say this or you're going to upset people looking for an Advanced Dungeons & Dragons experiance which this is not. DDO is a very tactile hack-n-slash strategy game based on the 3.5 D&D rules systems.
As for the op's grief with the combat, DDO is extremely tactile and requires a decent level of on the fly thinking to apply a working strategy to a dynamic game environment. Various monters behave very different from each other. For instance, a Kobold is going to be bouncing around where as the Ogre is going to run straight at you and clobber your ass!
If someone is having a hard time dealing with mobs in a dungeon there's a good chance they would benefit from having some companions. For instance, if you're playing a Fighter you might have a hard time hiting those Kobolds and a Ranger with a bow might be beneficial, or maybe a Sorcerer that can cast Web!
While the game does permit a certain degree of solo play it's is not the core design of the game. You will need help in many of the encounters and as with AD&D Dungeons & Dragons Online is about group synergy.
In closing, if you're having trouble with some of the encounters pay for a Hirling to assist you, but another play would be much more effective in any party.
I do not play this game, but a real fight is always chaotic and clumsy feeling. Seriously, when have you been in a real fight and had time to contemplate on wether to punch the guy in his face or take his legs out? Unless hes just painfully running in slow motion, you won't get the chance. And that's exactly what you should look for in FPS type combat. If this is not combat you like, then static combat is what your looking for which resembles more of fantasy fighting.
Well, I've not been in a "real fight" in a looooong time.
Sure the fighters were *moving*.. They weren't standing still. But they weren't frantically scurrying around each other non-stop either.
Likewise, I expect some movement from creatures in a game. But there's "movement" and then there's the wild, cyclonic movement of several of the mobs I've tried to hit. When combined with me trying to keep up with them, swinging away just trying to *hit* them... well it makes for a very chaotic and (to me) very awkward experience.
I think the only mobs that haven't been like that are the spiders. They're pretty much like homing missles... they just find you and come straight on.
I think a previous explanation makes more sense... they're trying to position themselves at my sides or behind me. That would explain why they're constantly spinning and scurrying.
I'll keep at it for a bit and see how it progresses.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I do not play this game, but a real fight is always chaotic and clumsy feeling. Seriously, when have you been in a real fight and had time to contemplate on wether to punch the guy in his face or take his legs out? Unless hes just painfully running in slow motion, you won't get the chance. And that's exactly what you should look for in FPS type combat. If this is not combat you like, then static combat is what your looking for which resembles more of fantasy fighting.
Well, I've not been in a "real fight" in a looooong time.
Sure the fighters were *moving*.. They weren't standing still. But they weren't frantically scurrying around each other non-stop either.
Likewise, I expect some movement from creatures in a game. But there's "movement" and then there's the wild, cyclonic movement of several of the mobs I've tried to hit. When combined with me trying to keep up with them, swinging away just trying to *hit* them... well it makes for a very chaotic and (to me) very awkward experience.
I think the only mobs that haven't been like that are the spiders. They're pretty much like homing missles... they just find you and come straight on.
I think a previous explanation makes more sense... they're trying to position themselves at my sides or behind me. That would explain why they're constantly spinning and scurrying.
I'll keep at it for a bit and see how it progresses.
Small agile creatures are more likely to be bouncing around. The larger ones tend to try and use brute strength if thay have it.
Don't take it to seriously
. In fact, taking things much too seriously is what you've just experienced. I think most of DDO EU forum users are taking the game much too seriously, and there are people who's best hobby is try bash anyone for any postive opinion, like it wasn't allowed or something.
Just take it easy. It's not Ad&d 2nd Edition system, it's D&D, 3rd Edition system. Heck, maybe I'll correct myself before I'm smashed into pieces: D&D 3.5 Ruleset adapted for D&D Online MMO game.
As we see, it's easy to correct something in calm, respectful way. If you want.
And something for the end note: don't let anyone force you any opinion on this game. Make your own, even if those most vocal people on any forums will try rend your opinions into pieces. Elitism is like most patologies - those who are subject to it, aren't aware and point to others.
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Don't take it to seriously
. In fact, taking things much too seriously is what you've just experienced. I think most of DDO EU forum users are taking the game much too seriously, and there are people who's best hobby is try bash anyone for any postive opinion, like it wasn't allowed or something.
Just take it easy. It's not Ad&d 2nd Edition system, it's D&D, 3rd Edition system. Heck, maybe I'll correct myself before I'm smashed into pieces: D&D 3.5 Ruleset adapted for D&D Online MMO game.
As we see, it's easy to correct something in calm, respectful way. If you want.
And something for the end note: don't let anyone force you any opinion on this game. Make your own, even if those most vocal people on any forums will try rend your opinions into pieces. Elitism is like most patologies - those who are subject to it, aren't aware and point to others.
Heheh thanks for the advice.
Not taking any of what was said to heart or "too seriously" at all. The LOL at the beginning was quite literal. I believe I said "put the hatchet down, guy" to myself in real life as well after reading it.
Also, I've been around mmorpg.com for a while, so I'm pretty used to how agressively defensive people can get over... well.. anything to do with a game, whether in defense of it, or attacking it.
I also know that when it comes to AD&D, some people get especially 'nerdy' (let's call a spade a spade) about all the little particulars. So, while the "don't say it's like AD&D" comment was rather funny... I understand where it comes from. I've known several people in real life (used to occasionally hang out at a local comic and gaming store some years back) and they would get similarly all flustered and riled up if your knowledge or opinion of whatever game (or comic for that matter) wasn't on par with theirs. There was one guy who got banned from the store after being asked repeatedly to stop drilling customers over what they chose to play.
An ex-girlfriend's sister is like that with Anime. Mis-pronounce a word, a character's name, or the name of a show and she gets all huffy and militant about it, too. "That's NOT how you pronounce it. If you're going to say it... say it CORRECTLY". To her credit, my ex would deliberately butcher things just to get her ticked, 'cause she agreed it was ridiculous.
She did it to me once and I simply said: "Did you know who I was referring to?" She starts with, "Yes, but..." To which I cut her off, saying: "Okay, then for the sake of not interrupting the conversation, can you please just let it go and roll with it?"
She did so... but was clearly flustered at my "ignorance".
Anyways... good points, all.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I see what you mean Mike, combat feels abit wierd. Dont know if its about the combination of twitch and stats that make it feel that way. Also the death animations of the mobs are genreally to slow so you keep swinging in the air even if the mobs is alread dead.
I first rolled a Ranger and melee felt wierd but now I made a Monk and it feels much better and you can really feel the combat when beating up kobolds with a long stick
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This is a very fast game and if you are new you will be playing with people that have played for years making it a total blur if you group with them. What I find bizzare is of all the MMO's to have this diablo'esq type action, the last game one would ever think to work that way would have the D&D name behind it. There are things to love in this game but there are things to be learned as well. I 'd love a much slower DnD mmo, I'd love a fast paced MMO not based on the confussing DnD system. I like it overall but can't help be completely flabbergasted by how this game was designed. I think Turbine now has the knowlege to make something new that can combine what they've learned over the years and hit a homerun, will they? They do have a secret project in the works.
Ok, this is going to be The Comic Guy kind of post:
There are many differences between DDO and AD&D. A person who's only familar with the rule system for AD&D (such I was) will likely be very dissapointed with DDO for a myriad of reasons.
For starters, we were used to a turn based application of the combat system which amounted to a few cleaver words and the rolling of the dice. DDO on the other hand is extremely tactile and instead of clear words you have to be employ good hand eye cooridination along with those quick thinking skills to resolve situations. Good twitch skills is not going to be the norm for people interested in AD&D, but I digress.
Classes are very different from AD&D in every respect, but this due to an entirely different rule system then what we knew with the 30 year old system most of us are familar with. Everything is based on a Dificulty Check and there are skills which weren't present in AD&D that dictate a lot of your success and you wouldn't know that unless someone said "Hey, this isn't AD&D." Character attirbutes don't cap at 18 and many have starting abilities in the 20's whereas you can even hit 40! (this was extremely confusing to me as a new player to DDO with my only experiance with AD&D)
My original point is if you're going to be presenting this game as an AD&D clone its potentially going to upset those looking for something along those lines. A common and frequently expressed complaint is that DDO is absolutely nothing like AD&D in any way other then sharing a few iconic naming schemes.
If anyone thought my original post was hostile then they are probably too sensitive...
P.S. Try this, next time you're ingame ask who doesn't know what 18(00) means. I would be surprised if more then a fifth know without having been told previously - yes, I've had only 2 people know out of 12.
Another thing that no one seems to have said (in my quick look through of the answers given) is that without the spring attack feat, anytime you move you are -4 to hit. So that mob that hops in to whack at you and hops back that you follow, you are now -4 to hit. That makes a big difference at the beginning of the game. At upper levels, -4 isn't much at all. At low levels it means a lot. And the -4 is part of the reason the devs put in this dynamic.
I played closed beta of this game. I recall when the mobs didn't jump around. It was a boring fight. Having some jumping around makes it more exciting (and the reason my first paladin had spring attack) and yes, more chaotic. But come on... would you really want all mobs to run up to you and stand there until you beat them down (aka like all other MMORPG's out there)?
Great observation! I thought about it too. But as you said, once you're on higher levels, it doesn't that much - either you have great pluses to hit, or use spells / wands all the time. So I think Turbine should consider raising that -4 to hit when you move on stable tiers, like level 5, level 10, level 5, level 20. Or each level, each two levels, etc.
I think it could be balanced, as casters with low "to hit" bonuses (base attack bonus) don't rely that much hitiing anyone while moving - try to cast a powerfull spell and move at once.
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Great observation! I thought about it too. But as you said, once you're on higher levels, it doesn't that much - either you have great pluses to hit, or use spells / wands all the time. So I think Turbine should consider raising that -4 to hit when you move on stable tiers, like level 5, level 10, level 5, level 20. Or each level, each two levels, etc.
I think it could be balanced, as casters with low "to hit" bonuses (base attack bonus) don't rely that much hitiing anyone while moving - try to cast a powerfull spell and move at once.
Are you saying that the -4 should become -5 or -8 as you level higher?
Great observation! I thought about it too. But as you said, once you're on higher levels, it doesn't that much - either you have great pluses to hit, or use spells / wands all the time. So I think Turbine should consider raising that -4 to hit when you move on stable tiers, like level 5, level 10, level 5, level 20. Or each level, each two levels, etc.
I think it could be balanced, as casters with low "to hit" bonuses (base attack bonus) don't rely that much hitiing anyone while moving - try to cast a powerfull spell and move at once.
Are you saying that the -4 should become -5 or -8 as you level higher?
I'm not trying to say it should. I just bring it to discussion. This would need to be tested first, that's sure. My point was that -4 becomes nothing in later game, thus making this rule quite pointless.
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Hi. I just re-subbed after a few years and I know what you mean about the combat. A few things you might find helpful when you are alone:
Practice fighting backwards. This was a skill I picked up a while back when my mates were teaching me the Way of Unreal Tournament. If you get rushed by a mob that's jumping all over the place, you can try and chase them down but you're just making yourself more of a target and getting further into hostile area. If you take on a mob and begin a tactical retreat over already covered ground, the mobs have a tendency to form a bit of a wedge with the narrow end facing you as they chase you. You want to kill them but they also want to kill you. When you see the wedge beginning to take shape, you now only have one or two attackers within range of you. Keep swinging all the way and you will start bumping them off a few at a time.
Know your terrain. This is especially good with tactical retreats. The terrain is your friend. In a dungeon entrances, doorways, hallways are often littered with debris. crates, chest, bones...you get my drift. These can be used as bottlenecks to force the enemy to face you only a few at a time. If you storm down a pipe into a room full of kobolds, run back out and wait at the side of the door. A few of the melee mobs may have followed you and you get first whack at them when they come through the door. The casters and rangers will probably stay in the room but now their guards are dead and you have time to get a few buffs and potions down you before you take them on. Much easier than doing a bum rush and getting debuffed before you get your sword out and then picked off by their foot soldiers.
I hope this helps. I'm still level 3 as I've rolled new toons and just got to the marketplace but these skills have really come in handy for me. Good luck.
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
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You make a good point. There are times when I solo that I'll back out of an area, go around a corner or fight in a door way just to limit the number of mobs on me.
Also when I played my paladin (he's retired now), I use to shield block doorways and hold mobs back as casters and ranged pc's would take them out... another good tactic. However the AI has been changed so standing in a doorway blocking will now cause aggro.
BTW, finally when DDO allowed players to switch out feats, I got rid of mobility and spring attack. By then the -4 didn't really matter anymore when chasing down a mob.
Great observation! I thought about it too. But as you said, once you're on higher levels, it doesn't that much - either you have great pluses to hit, or use spells / wands all the time. So I think Turbine should consider raising that -4 to hit when you move on stable tiers, like level 5, level 10, level 5, level 20. Or each level, each two levels, etc.
I think it could be balanced, as casters with low "to hit" bonuses (base attack bonus) don't rely that much hitiing anyone while moving - try to cast a powerfull spell and move at once.
Are you saying that the -4 should become -5 or -8 as you level higher?
I'm not trying to say it should. I just bring it to discussion. This would need to be tested first, that's sure. My point was that -4 becomes nothing in later game, thus making this rule quite pointless.
The problem I see with this idea is, as you get higher in level you get better with your weapons and fighting styles and the penalties are lessened. Early in game you are less equipped to handle penalties. Lets not forget that later in game if you take the -4 while moving and run in power attack mode you are now at a -9 and that is no small penalty. You can take feats to lessen many of the penalties as you level but these are an investment you make to do so.
ive started playing DDO and i will say this its not like most other mmo's the actual fun from the game doesnt come from the "ding" from gaining a new level. It's actually fun (for the first time) to pick up a mission and follow the story through to the end, the voice over is quite funny as well.
The game combat system is a bit of a surprise because most mmo players are not used to smart enemies. i was quite surprised to find myself chasing after a mob who ran away.
Its also interesting as i play a wizard you do have to really watch where the mobs go, if anything gets behind you your going down very quickly. Also stealther mobs are a real risk if you run away from them they may hit you with a critical stealth attack. Ive been one shotted when trying to flee back to my team mates after "discovering" a secret passage way.
and thats whats also good about the game when i first did some missions i actually missed quite a lot,when i went through again with someone else they were going along opening up doors and finding mobs i never knew existed.
One of the funniest things was me as a squishy was out front looking at the eye candy when suddenly "BOOM" followed by "watch out for the trap" it really is a game that requirs thought.
The "smart" enemies are not so smart. Turbine has to tweak them as many will continue to run away to try and get optinal distance and not bother to stop and attack again.
The "smart" enemies are not so smart. Turbine has to tweak them as many will continue to run away to try and get optinal distance and not bother to stop and attack again.
I think you can read relative to other MMOs the mobs are smarter. Artificial intelligence, like real intelligence always has room for improvement.
Glad you are enjoying it Giggal, I certainly enjoy the journey more than the destination.
DDO is quite fun when it's new and fresh. My most fond memories are when new content is released and my RL friends and I were able to explore dungeons for the first time without someone who had "tested" the content prerelease.
Alas, those days are over because we're all burnt out on doing the same 'ole thing over and over and over... They've all left and even with Mod 9 approaching, none... not one... is looking to return...
I also just cancelled my sub. And since this game was all about playing with friends I don't plan on returning either.
But you have fun. Until you run out of content and have to wait way too long for more...
If we put it into proper perspective and relate the experiance to more popular games it's hard to say DDO AI is dumb. I'm not saying the AI is flawless, but I am convinced the overall PvE experiance and combat mechanics is more advanced then most of the other mmo's I've played. This simply means I've not played a more engaging experiance.
For the sake of the arguement, could you reference a few other titles where the combat and AI appears intelligent?
Of course I wish the AI in DDO were even "smarter". Would I would like is more randomness to Mob's placement which could even facilitate a Healer NPC that healed other NPCs as the party was attempting to deliver a beat down.