What is the fee for the competition? Is it the 'event passes" that were mentioned? I don't know anything about it, that's why I'm asking. I haven't subscribed to SWG for a couple years yet I have several packs of TCG as vet rewards (which is ironic given the fact that I haven't been a vet for a while). Do you have to purchase more packs to be able to enter a tournament and that is why its fee based? or is it those 10 "event passes" whatever the heck they are? I'm not trying to get people riled up, I'm just curious about what would make it illegal in those states other than what the previous poster said about the red tape inherent in most intra-continental competitions.
THe problem the states like Nevada have is that they regulate games of chance, not skill. The TCG appears to be about luck to gain the prizes, a game of skill would be chess or table top Warhammer. You buy a pack, and if you get the right card, you get a prize. If not, you keep buying to get a prize. Which is a problem since you are required to pay a fee to enter and its all chance. Maybe the odds of winning are to low for Nevada and the other states, so they wont alow it. Or that SOE wont play by Nevada gaming laws and pay the associated taxes. Most of this is speculation, hard facts a not available to us. Now, if somebody were to ask a state gaming official from Nevada why its not allowed, then were would have some facts.
More information regarding what's so special about places like Nevada when it comes to games of chance, including video games. The following is a review of why playing video poker is viewed as safer in Nevada:
"Nevada Gaming Control seems to be very good at keeping the games honest, and examples of biased machines are extremely rare. Several years ago it was discovered that the machines installed in some bars were modified to never hit a royal flush. Following up on complaints, Nevada Gaming Control quickly put the slot route operator out of business. Consequently, I feel quite safe playing video poker in any casino in Nevada.... We can hope that such legal measures will spread to other areas and pressure lawmakers in other jurisdictions to copy and enforce such regulations." (gamblingtimes.com)
. Notice any differences between these tournaments and SOE's?
I stopped reading after the part where you wrote it took place IN PERSON in nevada. There is a difference and it is this.
Soe's are classified as true mmorpg's they take place virtually and its much harder to monitor. Your talking about in person tournaments where people register on paper show up and whether THEY are cheating etc can be checked. Soe is holding free online tournaments within an mmorpg setting and giving away prizes. Its much harder to regulate that and they can't stop people from giving false information so they cover their butts. If someone in great britain really wants to compete they can by masking ip addresses and doing it virtually sony can't stop them so where there is more of a heavy hand of regulation sony bows out.
Anyhow its quite apparent you feel that sony is again trying to hurt people by offering them a chance to compete against each other using their own card decks and register for free competitions and win dvd players or ingame virtual loot. Good luck as usual. I still dont see the fuss the tournaments are free I have never seen anyone pay for one (that does not mean it wont happen though) and the prizes are free and the cards they use they have accumulated over the last year its not like they pay for new cards to play these things. I never will see what the fuss is about and that is what fascinates me about this site.
I am quite amazed at the effort you put into this especially since you just compared what appears to be apples and oranges here.
. Notice any differences between these tournaments and SOE's?
Soe is holding free online tournaments within an mmorpg setting and giving away prizes.
So if the online tournament is free, I can play without having to pay a monthly subscription fee? If I could download the TCG client by itself as freeware and participate without paying the MMO subscription, I'd agree with you that the tournament is free.
On the other hand, if I do have to pay a fee (the monthly subscription fee) to gain access to the TCG client and participate in the online tournament, the tournament then ceases to be free. I'm having to pay to play it, which could be what differentiates the TCG tournament from those Arc posted above as free.
. Notice any differences between these tournaments and SOE's?
I stopped reading after the part where you wrote it took place IN PERSON in nevada. There is a difference and it is this.
Soe's are classified as true mmorpg's they take place virtually and its much harder to monitor. Your talking about in person tournaments where people register on paper show up and whether THEY are cheating etc can be checked. Soe is holding free online tournaments within an mmorpg setting and giving away prizes. Its much harder to regulate that and they can't stop people from giving false information so they cover their butts. If someone in great britain really wants to compete they can by masking ip addresses and doing it virtually sony can't stop them so where there is more of a heavy hand of regulation sony bows out.
Anyhow its quite apparent you feel that sony is again trying to hurt people by offering them a chance to compete against each other using their own card decks and register for free competitions and win dvd players or ingame virtual loot. Good luck as usual. I still dont see the fuss the tournaments are free I have never seen anyone pay for one (that does not mean it wont happen though) and the prizes are free and the cards they use they have accumulated over the last year its not like they pay for new cards to play these things. I never will see what the fuss is about and that is what fascinates me about this site.
I am quite amazed at the effort you put into this especially since you just compared what appears to be apples and oranges here.
They're not free at all, they are for sale at the Sony Online Store. You also have to pay a fee to access the card game to begin with. That's one difference it would seem.
The other TCG's meet the legal standards because there is no fee involved in playing a game that has prizes available by chance. SOE's game appears to have prizes available by chance AND an entry fee--actually two levels of fees I believe if you look closely enough.
It's all clearly spelled out in there rules, here:
"Registering for tournaments is an easy process. Any player that wants
to participate in tournaments, whether On-Demand or Scheduled events,
needs to become a registered player of Star Wars Galaxies Trading
Card Game. To register, the player must make a purchase in the Star
Wars Galaxies Trading Card Game Store. Any purchase that includes at
least a booster pack or starter deck will enable that account to enjoy the
full features of Star Wars Galaxies Trading Card Game from that point
forward – including tournaments. After you have made your purchase,
simply log out of the client and when you next log in you will have
registered your account to play in tournaments.
Event Passes are required by most tournaments. These
are your tickets into the various tournament events.
They can be purchased through the Star Wars Galaxies
Trading Card Game Store or traded for in the Trade
Lobby from other players. Each tournament queue will
indicate how many event passes it will require to join
the event. Event Passes will not be removed from your
account until the event actually begins." (SWGTCGrulebook.pdf)
This is all just fyi for any interested readers. I don't need to lobby anyone about this. The authorities already know obviously, and as a result the tournaments are not available in jurisdictions that have relevant consumer protection legislation. Those jurisdictions that do not have such protections are currently working hard to catch up. Meanwhile, I think it helps prospective players to be informed of the differences between the various TCG tournaments available. Some, like World of Warcraft's, meet regulations for promotions, sweepstakes and/or games of chance in areas like Nevada. Others apparently do not. Now that everyone knows, they can decide what to play and know exactly what they can expect.
Some TCG tournaments are promotional in nature, they have no fee whatsoever, and they offer prizes. No financial risk is involved at all for any participants.
Some have people hoping to win prizes by chance paying one or more fees to participate. There seems to be a risk that they will pay the fee(s) and not come away with a coveted prize. This seems to be at least one important difference.
TGC is gambling, plain and simple. Any one that is denying it is trying to cover SOE for some reason.
Seriously, I'd love to see a large group of players "playing" the TGC.
Or, just maybe, anyone that doesn't agree that it is gambling is simply exercising their right to have their own opinion.
Why is it that any dissent from the so-called "vets" equates to "trying to cover for SOE" around here? The groupthink around here hasn't gotten any better since most of the hardcores ran off to their own little lolforum to whine about SOE.
is it me or is your opinion legally wrong in 7 states?
is it me or is his opinion legally ok in all but 7 states?
Well Vermont is my home state.. I still go back there multiple times a year and my family all still live there.
So I have a different view on Vermont being on that list.. considering some of the things that go on in the state.. which are considered "gambling" in other states... right down to age requirments.. yet in Vermont minors are allowed to participate. If you live in Vermont you probably figured out what that is but I'm going to leave it at that.
My issue with these threads... is no one forces anyone to buy any of this.
I play EQ2... sure I see people with TCG crap they bought.. I see people offering plat in exchange for boxes of cards... I don't care. If it bothered me that much I would /cancel and move on...
People bring up SWG.... Personally after the NGE I could give a crap less about the TCG... I honestly don't even begin to understand why this subject keeps coming up.
I really wish they would have made all their games like EQ1 used to.. only harder.
Then these same people could make endless threads about all the "leet guilds in uber gear" that they could never hope to have... I kind of miss those days...
But gambling is allowed in NV. So it can't be because of gambling laws.
SOE would have to follow the rules/laws that Nevada has on the books for these types of tournaments.
Exactly so. In Nevada, if you want to run a game of chance (or a product promotional) you have to meet their standards. Generally these regs ensure that players aren't duped, manipulated or exploited by the house. If you don't meet these standards, you have to go somewhere else to set up shop.
Why does Nevada do this? I expect it's because games of chance are a huge part of their economy. It is in their best interest to ensure that people enjoy their games, and come again often. If you win, you know you did so fairly. If you lose, you knew what you were risking up front, and you can be assured that the deck wasn't stacked against you in any way.
You can gamble in states with fewer regulations if you choose, but you have a greater chance of getting the shaft, and fewer options to have your grievances addressed. Informed customers know this of course, and generally avoid a lot of hassles. Uninformed customers are unaware of these realities and more often find themselves in some out of the way area missing a shirt and wondering what happened.
The same goes for MMOs and their TCG tournaments it would seem. I'd play in one of Wow's tournaments, for example, and I love TCGs. I wouldn't touch SOE's with a ten foot pole, purely because I understand the differences between the two and the way they are run.
If the StarWars TCG tournaments ever met Nevada standards, I might change my mind, but not until then.
But gambling is allowed in NV. So it can't be because of gambling laws.
You don't need to speculate. Virrago from SOE clearly explained why the tournaments can't be offered in NV. It's up a few posts if you want the details. Here's the quick summary: "we cannot offer fee-based tournaments with prizes..."
You pay a fee, you play a game of chance, you hope to win a prize, but in many cases will not. It's not that hard to understand.
The TCG tournaments that are legal do not require you to risk anything financial to participate. They have no entry fee whatsoever. So, they can offer prizes in games of chance because there is no risk, or monetary gamble.
They appear to be product promotionals that meet all the relevant legislative requirements. You can do your own research on this if you like. Read the post above about legal TCG's in NV for a comparison, or google product promotionals, games of chance, regulations in Nevada if you like. It's not difficult to find.
If anyone is actually willing to see the differences, they're not at all hard to spot. The different level of risk to consumers is also very obvious, again only to those willing to see it. People who want to pretend that there are no differences won't see this (not referring to you specifically here Blazer), or admit it, I'm sure, but I've learned to accept that. It's really not my problem. People who are open to information, however, can only benefit by becoming more knowledgeable.
What arch is saying is that stupid people are incapable of learning. That statement is not directed at any one person but it is a fact.
Sometimes I'm not sure if the problem is that some people can't learn, or if they simply refuse to see things for what they are. Maybe both are true at different times (shrug). At any rate, I do think that most people--given the right information--can become better informed consumers and side-step some potential pitfalls as a result ^_^.
Sometimes I get the impression that SOE assumes their players are stupid or something. The fact that they've lost so many of their customers, however, suggests that this is generally not the case. Gamers, by and large, do seem to be able to spot a bad deal, and walk away. I think this, more than anything, accounts for the ongoing population problems with this particular MMO. People seem to see what is being offered to them, see how other companies do business, and then vote with their feet. WoW's success is not an accident, and even in the way they run their TCG tournaments (see above post) I see important differences.
I keep reading that the TCG is illegal in 7 states, but that's not how I read it. I read it to mean that this tournament isn't legal in 7 states. I checked their website for the TCG itself and there are no disclamers that you can't play the game in those states, or won't have access to purchasing the cards in those states, only that you can't participate in this tournament. Though I don't really know why someone would want to anyway, but that's another thread.
Precisely.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
What arch is saying is that stupid people are incapable of learning. That statement is not directed at any one person but it is a fact.
Sometimes I'm not sure if the problem is that some people can't learn, or if they simply refuse to see things for what they are. Maybe both are true at different times (shrug). At any rate, I do think that most people--given the right information--can become better informed consumers and side-step some potential pitfalls as a result ^_^.
Sometimes I get the impression that SOE assumes their players are stupid or something. The fact that they've lost so many of their customers, however, suggests that this is generally not the case. Gamers, by and large, do seem to be able to spot a bad deal, and walk away. I think this, more than anything, accounts for the ongoing population problems with this particular MMO. People seem to see what is being offered to them, see how other companies do business, and then vote with their feet. WoW's success is not an accident, and even in the way they run their TCG tournaments (see above post) I see important differences.
I have not played EQ's Ledgends of Nororth(spelling ) but what you don't take into account is Lucas Arts understanding of Star Wars Fandom. Think about it. What fan base can be uncontrolablly obsessed with collecting single or multiple aspects of IP? Star Trek is comparable but not near the same level. Star Wars has had and stil has a strong collecting market out there. The original Decipher CCG was much like this new game in the mix of Rare and/or Loot cards. (One thing I really hated) What makes SWG: TCG different from its real world counterpart in its totally controlled by the offering company. I can still go to eBay and by Decipher CCGs; I can't with the TCG as its all in house. Lucas Arts was an easy sell on the TCG as they know and feel that this would play right in with those fans of SWG that still play the game. Obsessive and completest are a driving force in the money making scheme for Lucas Arts. Lucas Arts may say they "will continue supporting SWG" but I see the TCG as a last ditch money grab on those they prey on until they can get TOR out and be rid of thier "deal with the devil" in SOE. This is not saying SOE is blamless for card distribution and function role but share motive with its partner. Remember: SOE makes and runs it; Lucas Arts markets, packages, copyrights, advertises, approves, rates, market researches and distributes SWG.
This comes from a continuing player and Star Wars fan.
I keep reading that the TCG is illegal in 7 states, but that's not how I read it. I read it to mean that this tournament isn't legal in 7 states. I checked their website for the TCG itself and there are no disclamers that you can't play the game in those states, or won't have access to purchasing the cards in those states, only that you can't participate in this tournament. Though I don't really know why someone would want to anyway, but that's another thread.
Precisely.
Yes, this is the way I see it also. This is about the tournaments, not the TCG itself.
What arch is saying is that stupid people are incapable of learning. That statement is not directed at any one person but it is a fact.
Sometimes I'm not sure if the problem is that some people can't learn, or if they simply refuse to see things for what they are. Maybe both are true at different times (shrug). At any rate, I do think that most people--given the right information--can become better informed consumers and side-step some potential pitfalls as a result ^_^.
Sometimes I get the impression that SOE assumes their players are stupid or something. The fact that they've lost so many of their customers, however, suggests that this is generally not the case. Gamers, by and large, do seem to be able to spot a bad deal, and walk away. I think this, more than anything, accounts for the ongoing population problems with this particular MMO. People seem to see what is being offered to them, see how other companies do business, and then vote with their feet. WoW's success is not an accident, and even in the way they run their TCG tournaments (see above post) I see important differences.
I have not played EQ's Ledgends of Nororth(spelling ) but what you don't take into account is Lucas Arts understanding of Star Wars Fandom. Think about it. What fan base can be uncontrolablly obsessed with collecting single or multiple aspects of IP? Star Trek is comparable but not near the same level. Star Wars has had and stil has a strong collecting market out there. The original Decipher CCG was much like this new game in the mix of Rare and/or Loot cards. (One thing I really hated) What makes SWG: TCG different from its real world counterpart in its totally controlled by the offering company. I can still go to eBay and by Decipher CCGs; I can't with the TCG as its all in house. Lucas Arts was an easy sell on the TCG as they know and feel that this would play right in with those fans of SWG that still play the game. Obsessive and completest are a driving force in the money making scheme for Lucas Arts. Lucas Arts may say they "will continue supporting SWG" but I see the TCG as a last ditch money grab on those they prey on until they can get TOR out and be rid of thier "deal with the devil" in SOE. This is not saying SOE is blamless for card distribution and function role but share motive with its partner. Remember: SOE makes and runs it; Lucas Arts markets, packages, copyrights, advertises, approves, rates, market researches and distributes SWG.
This comes from a continuing player and Star Wars fan.
Hiya JY! I wouldn't be at all surprised if your view on LEC's involvement is accurate. It seems like a last ditch money grab for both companies before TOR comes out. It seems like such a short term cash grab that burns long-term bridges that any other scenario doesn't appear to make much sense.
Tbh I think shortly after the NGE mess that LEC started focusing their attention on Bioware and the next StarWars MMO. I think some of the higher calibre devs also went to Bioware. SOE seems to have been left to try to get as much out of SWG as they can in the meantime.
P.S. If anyone wants to find a way to have fun in SWG, such as it is, it's people like JYCowboy that you should try to hook up with. Classy guy.
Are the event passes free or do you have to pay for it?
I just noticed this now sorry. I actualy stop reading thread when certain posters start posting and assume that its just started as a bunch of trolling. In any event yes originally they were free. As I said originally the tournaments were free in most cases, but not always and qualified it. Many event passes are in fact obtained during round robin type sprint tournaments and you win them by winning the game. They originally were not for sale in the stores but I put in the word "yet". Anyhow the basis of what I was saying is that your taking the rules of a tournament which is occuring in person on Nevada soil and attempting to apply these rules about tournaments to a virtual tournament. The point being that well its occuring in cyberspace and the rules of the country of origin are not the only thing governing things here as the servers are as you know scattered (some west coast, east coast, central states) then the players are not actually in those states where the servers are they are actually playing in other countries/states. Like any virtual game the companies take this into account hence the "apple and oranges" thing. Anyhow if they are finally starting to charge for tournaments so be it. They originally were not and many of the "sprint" tournaments were free. The ones I attended were free this is how I know they do hold free tournaments. I could not win the event passes or other things they were offering at the time in the sprint tournaments, but I wanted to see what they were about and like many things I like to see what is inside the box, but dont want to pay money to do so. I played free sprint tournaments when the TCG first came out. Sony has big tournaments in legends of norrath and I know they charge for those. I remember oogling at one that had a 10,000 usd prize. The point being yes they are tournaments and to my knowledge tounrments never have been gambling. Players play against each other and no betting occurs. How does "the house" place odds on 100 or 1000 or 10,000 people playing a tournament? Its not random numbers here its card decks people have built within certain rule sets with their best cards and the only random part is when they shuffle the cards. The rest is being able to strategize to beat what you see occuring on the other side. The TCG's are classified as strategy games and not games of chance and tournaments by definition are not considered as games of chance as its the best player that wins and "the house" has nothing to do with it its just hosting them and giving the prizes to the winners. That is the basis for any tournament no matter who holds it be it Sony or Blizzard or (who you seem to hold in high esteem for some reason) or any other company.
Again I will reitterate you ARE comparing apples and organges here as one is actually occuring in person on nevada soil and the other tournament is occuring in cyberspace in all places at all times and that is why those words are written by sony and any other company that is doing something like this virtually. I think you will find the main governing factor in why they write what they write is in relation to where they house their servers and the main offices not in relation to nevada, los vegas or any foreign country.
summary cause I know I need to
Event passes are now obtained in three ways (it used to be only the first two ways)
a) the origial way by playing sprint tournaments and winning them the sprint tournaments were free
b) you can trade cards for them inside the game
c) and now sony is selling them
sooo these tournaments may or may not cost money depending on how you obtained the passes in the first place.
annnd
tournaments are not by nature gambling and the ones SOE is holding is just a plain old tournament
annnnd
as usual these threads are misrepresenting things the op speaks of gambling and then uses a tournament as an example .. but its a tournament ... /shrug
I still never see what the fuss is about and why people who like this stuff just can't like enter the tournaments and have fun and why this is even an issue this one card game out of them all is singled out among a veritable plethora of identical card games many of which were created by the same company, but this one of all others somehow is... deferent...
Originally posted by Antarious My issue with these threads... is no one forces anyone to buy any of this. I play EQ2... sure I see people with TCG crap they bought.. I see people offering plat in exchange for boxes of cards... I don't care. If it bothered me that much I would /cancel and move on...
Yup legends of norrath is a TCG that has been occuring for years and no one has said anything about it. Its all a choice or how one wants to spend money and the bottom line is its a piece of a game which one can ignore or take part in of their own free will. Its run exactly the same as the SWG one and pretty much the same type of stuff is offered in both. I have played eq2 continuously since its very early days and never stopped (unlike with SWG I stopped for many years). I only logged into legends of norrath after I saw noise on this forum to see what was happening there and why all the uproar about TCG's that sony has been running for many many years its all of a sudden an issue.
Bottom line I still fail to see why those people that enjoy these games can't enjoy them if they are offered. They are all grown up and have chosen to become involved. I dont see any of them complaining of being ripped off they play the game and on occasion you see some guy in the world chat challenging someone else to a game or offering to sell his latest box of classless hats or something. Is anyone actually being hurt? I have not heard of anyone being hurt by these card games. Nor have I heard a single player complaining about gambling inside the game and the world chats in eq2 are usually abuzz with one controverial issue or a certain amount of "omg look what sony is doing now" discussions. The TCG is not something that I have ever heard a complaint about. Its just there and most of the population appears to not even know it exists. /shrug
My issue with these threads... is no one forces anyone to buy any of this.
I play EQ2... sure I see people with TCG crap they bought.. I see people offering plat in exchange for boxes of cards... I don't care. If it bothered me that much I would /cancel and move on...
Yup legends of norrath is a TCG that has been occuring for years and no one has said anything about it. Its all a choice or how one wants to spend money and the bottom line is its a piece of a game which one can ignore or take part in of their own free will. Its run exactly the same as the SWG one and pretty much the same type of stuff is offered in both. I have played eq2 continuously since its very early days and never stopped (unlike with SWG I stopped for many years). I only logged into legends of norrath after I saw noise on this forum to see what was happening there and why all the uproar about TCG's that sony has been running for many many years its all of a sudden an issue.
Bottom line I still fail to see why those people that enjoy these games can't enjoy them if they are offered. They are all grown up and have chosen to become involved. I dont see any of them complaining of being ripped off they play the game and on occasion you see some guy in the world chat challenging someone else to a game or offering to sell his latest box of classless hats or something. Is anyone actually being hurt? I have not heard of anyone being hurt by these card games. Nor have I heard a single player complaining about gambling inside the game and the world chats in eq2 are usually abuzz with one controverial issue or a certain amount of "omg look what sony is doing now" discussions. The TCG is not something that I have ever heard a complaint about. Its just there and most of the population appears to not even know it exists. /shrug
As an FYI, it took me all of two minutes to find the following comments about how people feel scammed by the TCG in SWG:
“Just want to say that I spent almost $200 on card booster packs and have had 2 xp cards, one vendor and one target dummy. That is a rediculously low loot drop rate for so many packs and such RL money. Have advised my friends and guild of it and it has saved them a bit of money in not wasting their money on packs.”
"I went over to the official forums and started reading a post about downtime caused due to implementing this new feature into the game, i thought to my self that was shocking enough itself. Then i started reading that some players have been spending over 100 dollars to try to get loot items and where complaining that they only got 3 decent cards, you can see that people will get drawn into this trading card scam and it will become an obsession for some, or addiction for others or worse the show off types could waste hundreds..."
and
"SOE are probably laughing all the way to the bank. I know two guys on my server who spent a combined total of nearl $1000 on booster packs the day the card game went live. I doubt they're the only ones to have spent that much money, and I should imagine even more people have bought smaller amounts."
“…it has been nearly a year since this TCG launched. Yet I can't count how many of these posts occur daily much less how many occur durring the normal month.” (from the official TCG forum)
All of these quotes are from public forums, btw. If you really want to know how this is impacting your fellow players, there ya go. From the last quote, it seems like the negative feedback occurs with great frequency and consistency.
SOE could probably follow the example of other TCG business models (see list above re. tournament play specifically) and avoid all of this controversy, and maybe even have more than just a handful of customers that seem to turn a blind eye to the way they do business. Why they refuse to do this, I may never understand. It's their choice I suppose. Just as it's mine to avoid them while they operate this way, and to let fellow gamers know what seems to be happening.
My issue with these threads... is no one forces anyone to buy any of this.
I play EQ2... sure I see people with TCG crap they bought.. I see people offering plat in exchange for boxes of cards... I don't care. If it bothered me that much I would /cancel and move on...
Yup legends of norrath is a TCG that has been occuring for years and no one has said anything about it. No one here or no one on the EQ2 forums?
It's all about context Ummax. I've not played EQ2 long enough to understand how their TCG affects that game or their community, and therefore don't feel informed enough to comment. But because I've not commented on EQ2's TCG doesn't mean I don't have an issue with it. I sincerly hope that those who do play EQ2 speak out against it though because I don't want to see this type of thing become the norm in MMO's.
Also, I'm not trying to be an ass here but I have two honest questions for you. Do you play EQ2? Do you defend their TCG as vehemently as you do SWG's?
To help curb the wanton collector lust of players, SOE limits how many boosters you can buy. You may only spend $250 per day in the shop. Oh, and that wasn't my purchase that discovered that.
My issue with these threads... is no one forces anyone to buy any of this.
I play EQ2... sure I see people with TCG crap they bought.. I see people offering plat in exchange for boxes of cards... I don't care. If it bothered me that much I would /cancel and move on...
Yup legends of norrath is a TCG that has been occuring for years and no one has said anything about it. Its all a choice or how one wants to spend money and the bottom line is its a piece of a game which one can ignore or take part in of their own free will. Its run exactly the same as the SWG one and pretty much the same type of stuff is offered in both. I have played eq2 continuously since its very early days and never stopped (unlike with SWG I stopped for many years). I only logged into legends of norrath after I saw noise on this forum to see what was happening there and why all the uproar about TCG's that sony has been running for many many years its all of a sudden an issue.
Bottom line I still fail to see why those people that enjoy these games can't enjoy them if they are offered. They are all grown up and have chosen to become involved. I dont see any of them complaining of being ripped off they play the game and on occasion you see some guy in the world chat challenging someone else to a game or offering to sell his latest box of classless hats or something. Is anyone actually being hurt? I have not heard of anyone being hurt by these card games. Nor have I heard a single player complaining about gambling inside the game and the world chats in eq2 are usually abuzz with one controverial issue or a certain amount of "omg look what sony is doing now" discussions. The TCG is not something that I have ever heard a complaint about. Its just there and most of the population appears to not even know it exists. /shrug
As an FYI, it took me all of two minutes to find the following comments about how people feel scammed by the TCG in SWG:
“Just want to say that I spent almost $200 on card booster packs and have had 2 xp cards, one vendor and one target dummy. That is a rediculously low loot drop rate for so many packs and such RL money. Have advised my friends and guild of it and it has saved them a bit of money in not wasting their money on packs.”
"I went over to the official forums and started reading a post about downtime caused due to implementing this new feature into the game, i thought to my self that was shocking enough itself. Then i started reading that some players have been spending over 100 dollars to try to get loot items and where complaining that they only got 3 decent cards, you can see that people will get drawn into this trading card scam and it will become an obsession for some, or addiction for others or worse the show off types could waste hundreds..."
and
"SOE are probably laughing all the way to the bank. I know two guys on my server who spent a combined total of nearl $1000 on booster packs the day the card game went live. I doubt they're the only ones to have spent that much money, and I should imagine even more people have bought smaller amounts."
“…it has been nearly a year since this TCG launched. Yet I can't count how many of these posts occur daily much less how many occur durring the normal month.” (from the official TCG forum)
All of these quotes are from public forums, btw. If you really want to know how this is impacting your fellow players, there ya go. From the last quote, it seems like the negative feedback occurs with great frequency and consistency.
SOE could probably follow the example of other TCG business models (see list above re. tournament play specifically) and avoid all of this controversy, and maybe even have more than just a handful of customers that seem to turn a blind eye to the way they do business. Why they refuse to do this, I may never understand. It's their choice I suppose. Just as it's mine to avoid them while they operate this way, and to let fellow gamers know what seems to be happening.
Sony is not "scamming" people pay for 200 bucks of booster packs and get 200 bucks of booster packs. Not everyone seems to be adult enough to know what they are purchasing. Also there is a limit to try to minimalize the cries of injustice of this so called scamming for people who seem to have no self control. You buy a deck of cards to play cards. These are bogus noisemakers and you know it. Sony has a trading CARD game and packages are sold for you to add to your CARD game. I have yet to hear of people not receiving their cards. There may have been a delay in a few cases but the cards always land in their accounts.
The problem here is you can't seperate chronic complainers who complain about litterally EVERYTHING from actual problems. They spend 250 bucks on cards and get cards there is no scam here period. Just in the imaginations of the posters. I roll my eyes when I see people complaining OMG I didn't get the barn and i spent 200 bucks on it. Well gee sorry its an added toy which has nothing to do with the TCG and some people well I wonder how old they are or what world they live in.
p.s. feeling scammed and actualy being scammed are two different things and I feel I should point out before I get told about what I said I was commenting on legends of norrath and eq2 and no one complaining about any of it not the SWG TCG which as usual seems to take the brunt of complaints even though this has been happening for years. /shrug
My issue with these threads... is no one forces anyone to buy any of this.
I play EQ2... sure I see people with TCG crap they bought.. I see people offering plat in exchange for boxes of cards... I don't care. If it bothered me that much I would /cancel and move on...
Yup legends of norrath is a TCG that has been occuring for years and no one has said anything about it. No one here or no one on the EQ2 forums?
It's all about context Ummax. I've not played EQ2 long enough to understand how their TCG affects that game or their community, and therefore don't feel informed enough to comment. But because I've not commented on EQ2's TCG doesn't mean I don't have an issue with it. I sincerly hope that those who do play EQ2 speak out against it though because I don't want to see this type of thing become the norm in MMO's.
Also, I'm not trying to be an ass here but I have two honest questions for you. Do you play EQ2? Do you defend their TCG as vehemently as you do SWG's?
well firstly I'm not defending anything. I read threads and some of them are so misleading I can't help but say something..
Yes I have played eq2 since 2005 and swg since 2003 I defend neither I simply post what I see. I'm a realist in most situations and realistically speaking as adults people have to learn how do deal with the world. I have as of yet not been "ripped off" by sony. I have however been massively ripped off by ncsoft but I dont spend my time on ncsoft game forums complaining about it as it occured well years and years ago. I had mentioned this before. There is no "good" company and as adults the world is a case of buyer beware. This thread however is pure and utter bunk though. People who buy cards for a free prize inside and then cry foul about it are usually the type that have no self control or ability to reason through things what-so-ever. It happens here and on ever other game I have seen. I have yet to see a company and company not accused of scamming including blizzard by the way. However the only companies I can comment on in the present are in fact sony because well I am right now for the moment only playing sony games.
NCSOFT had some employee issues when I played lineage 2 something beyond my control and what happened to me there beats anything I have come across that sony does as most of what sony does is in relation to advertising gimicks and attempts and increasing subscriptions. (normal everyday stuff that as an adult one has to learn to sort the bull from the reality of the situation). So here is what NCSOFT did to me and many others. It seems an employee decided to plant a keylogger in their downloaded update that you get automatically when files are patched. I got hacked hoy boy beyond belief and they lost so many people as a result of that as we pulled our credit card info and removed every trace of their stuff from our computers. I personally had to get a new credit card had to call in chargebacks and this is a company I trusted with my info. That's real theft and I have yet to encounter anything that matches that to this day in the gaming industry. Maybe its because I know what marketing is but that is all that sony is doing its marketing with the free prizes. However there seems to be no accounting for self accountability when it comes to SWG and companies that do the same things or similar things who have their share of "omg I have been scammed" people are heald up as shining examples of what is better. They are not better in any way shape or form in fact they are all pretty crappy as they are large faceless corporations that exist in reality for one purpose only which is to make money. Somehow though in the case of this company issues which are years old are the problem and very little new issues crop up. Sony has been making TCG's for years and years and they all follow the same basic set up yet suddenly YEARS later its become an issue. I dont think this is context people claim to be trying to help people know the truth. Well the truth here is that this so called "scamming" has in fact been occuring for years and the "haters" have not batted one eye on it or are really researching their "target" or whatever if they were these issues would have been talked about in a certain other forum below for years now in fact though they are not.
Was there much noise made about the TCG on eq2 forums? Nope we were too busy complaining about the problems with the crafting nerfs. I know this cause i was one of them
Comments
THe problem the states like Nevada have is that they regulate games of chance, not skill. The TCG appears to be about luck to gain the prizes, a game of skill would be chess or table top Warhammer. You buy a pack, and if you get the right card, you get a prize. If not, you keep buying to get a prize. Which is a problem since you are required to pay a fee to enter and its all chance. Maybe the odds of winning are to low for Nevada and the other states, so they wont alow it. Or that SOE wont play by Nevada gaming laws and pay the associated taxes. Most of this is speculation, hard facts a not available to us. Now, if somebody were to ask a state gaming official from Nevada why its not allowed, then were would have some facts.
More information regarding what's so special about places like Nevada when it comes to games of chance, including video games. The following is a review of why playing video poker is viewed as safer in Nevada:
"Nevada Gaming Control seems to be very good at keeping the games honest, and examples of biased machines are extremely rare. Several years ago it was discovered that the machines installed in some bars were modified to never hit a royal flush. Following up on complaints, Nevada Gaming Control quickly put the slot route operator out of business. Consequently, I feel quite safe playing video poker in any casino in Nevada.... We can hope that such legal measures will spread to other areas and pressure lawmakers in other jurisdictions to copy and enforce such regulations." (gamblingtimes.com)
I stopped reading after the part where you wrote it took place IN PERSON in nevada. There is a difference and it is this.
Soe's are classified as true mmorpg's they take place virtually and its much harder to monitor. Your talking about in person tournaments where people register on paper show up and whether THEY are cheating etc can be checked. Soe is holding free online tournaments within an mmorpg setting and giving away prizes. Its much harder to regulate that and they can't stop people from giving false information so they cover their butts. If someone in great britain really wants to compete they can by masking ip addresses and doing it virtually sony can't stop them so where there is more of a heavy hand of regulation sony bows out.
Anyhow its quite apparent you feel that sony is again trying to hurt people by offering them a chance to compete against each other using their own card decks and register for free competitions and win dvd players or ingame virtual loot. Good luck as usual. I still dont see the fuss the tournaments are free I have never seen anyone pay for one (that does not mean it wont happen though) and the prizes are free and the cards they use they have accumulated over the last year its not like they pay for new cards to play these things. I never will see what the fuss is about and that is what fascinates me about this site.
I am quite amazed at the effort you put into this especially since you just compared what appears to be apples and oranges here.
Soe is holding free online tournaments within an mmorpg setting and giving away prizes.
So if the online tournament is free, I can play without having to pay a monthly subscription fee? If I could download the TCG client by itself as freeware and participate without paying the MMO subscription, I'd agree with you that the tournament is free.
On the other hand, if I do have to pay a fee (the monthly subscription fee) to gain access to the TCG client and participate in the online tournament, the tournament then ceases to be free. I'm having to pay to play it, which could be what differentiates the TCG tournament from those Arc posted above as free.
I stopped reading after the part where you wrote it took place IN PERSON in nevada. There is a difference and it is this.
Soe's are classified as true mmorpg's they take place virtually and its much harder to monitor. Your talking about in person tournaments where people register on paper show up and whether THEY are cheating etc can be checked. Soe is holding free online tournaments within an mmorpg setting and giving away prizes. Its much harder to regulate that and they can't stop people from giving false information so they cover their butts. If someone in great britain really wants to compete they can by masking ip addresses and doing it virtually sony can't stop them so where there is more of a heavy hand of regulation sony bows out.
Anyhow its quite apparent you feel that sony is again trying to hurt people by offering them a chance to compete against each other using their own card decks and register for free competitions and win dvd players or ingame virtual loot. Good luck as usual. I still dont see the fuss the tournaments are free I have never seen anyone pay for one (that does not mean it wont happen though) and the prizes are free and the cards they use they have accumulated over the last year its not like they pay for new cards to play these things. I never will see what the fuss is about and that is what fascinates me about this site.
I am quite amazed at the effort you put into this especially since you just compared what appears to be apples and oranges here.
http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/players/news_archive.vm?id=68276
STAR WARS GALAXIES™ TRADING CARD GAME APRIL LOOT TOURNAMENT! - 04/08/2009
GET SOME HOT LOOT IN THE APRIL
STAR WARS GALAXIES™ TRADING CARD GAME LOOT TOURNAMENT!
Join your friends online for the April Loot Tournament Weekend, April 11 and April 12, 2009, in the Star Wars Galaxies™ Trading Card Game!
For just ten (10) event passes, each participant will receive:
· Three (3) Star Wars Galaxies™ Trading Card Game: Galactic Hunters booster packs
· One (1) Droopy McCool (3P5) promotional card
· One (1) Guise of the Master (3SWGP2) loot card
· Plus, entry into the April Loot Tournament Weekend to compete for additional prizes!
Please note that participation is limited to U.S. residents only. Void in Arizona , Connecticut , Iowa , Maryland , Nevada , Tennessee and Vermont .
Are the event passes free or do you have to pay for it?
ummax...since when are SOE TCG event passes free?
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
They're not free at all, they are for sale at the Sony Online Store. You also have to pay a fee to access the card game to begin with. That's one difference it would seem.
The other TCG's meet the legal standards because there is no fee involved in playing a game that has prizes available by chance. SOE's game appears to have prizes available by chance AND an entry fee--actually two levels of fees I believe if you look closely enough.
It's all clearly spelled out in there rules, here:
"Registering for tournaments is an easy process. Any player that wants
to participate in tournaments, whether On-Demand or Scheduled events,
needs to become a registered player of Star Wars Galaxies Trading
Card Game. To register, the player must make a purchase in the Star
Wars Galaxies Trading Card Game Store. Any purchase that includes at
least a booster pack or starter deck will enable that account to enjoy the
full features of Star Wars Galaxies Trading Card Game from that point
forward – including tournaments. After you have made your purchase,
simply log out of the client and when you next log in you will have
registered your account to play in tournaments.
Event Passes are required by most tournaments. These
are your tickets into the various tournament events.
They can be purchased through the Star Wars Galaxies
Trading Card Game Store or traded for in the Trade
Lobby from other players. Each tournament queue will
indicate how many event passes it will require to join
the event. Event Passes will not be removed from your
account until the event actually begins." (SWGTCGrulebook.pdf)
This is all just fyi for any interested readers. I don't need to lobby anyone about this. The authorities already know obviously, and as a result the tournaments are not available in jurisdictions that have relevant consumer protection legislation. Those jurisdictions that do not have such protections are currently working hard to catch up. Meanwhile, I think it helps prospective players to be informed of the differences between the various TCG tournaments available. Some, like World of Warcraft's, meet regulations for promotions, sweepstakes and/or games of chance in areas like Nevada. Others apparently do not. Now that everyone knows, they can decide what to play and know exactly what they can expect.
Some TCG tournaments are promotional in nature, they have no fee whatsoever, and they offer prizes. No financial risk is involved at all for any participants.
Some have people hoping to win prizes by chance paying one or more fees to participate. There seems to be a risk that they will pay the fee(s) and not come away with a coveted prize. This seems to be at least one important difference.
Or, just maybe, anyone that doesn't agree that it is gambling is simply exercising their right to have their own opinion.
Why is it that any dissent from the so-called "vets" equates to "trying to cover for SOE" around here? The groupthink around here hasn't gotten any better since most of the hardcores ran off to their own little lolforum to whine about SOE.
is it me or is your opinion legally wrong in 7 states?
is it me or is his opinion legally ok in all but 7 states?
Well Vermont is my home state.. I still go back there multiple times a year and my family all still live there.
So I have a different view on Vermont being on that list.. considering some of the things that go on in the state.. which are considered "gambling" in other states... right down to age requirments.. yet in Vermont minors are allowed to participate. If you live in Vermont you probably figured out what that is but I'm going to leave it at that.
My issue with these threads... is no one forces anyone to buy any of this.
I play EQ2... sure I see people with TCG crap they bought.. I see people offering plat in exchange for boxes of cards... I don't care. If it bothered me that much I would /cancel and move on...
People bring up SWG.... Personally after the NGE I could give a crap less about the TCG... I honestly don't even begin to understand why this subject keeps coming up.
I really wish they would have made all their games like EQ1 used to.. only harder.
Then these same people could make endless threads about all the "leet guilds in uber gear" that they could never hope to have... I kind of miss those days...
But gambling is allowed in NV. So it can't be because of gambling laws.
edit - and nevada as it turns out, along with most of the western US :P
SOE would have to follow the rules/laws that Nevada has on the books for these types of tournaments.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
SOE would have to follow the rules/laws that Nevada has on the books for these types of tournaments.
Exactly so. In Nevada, if you want to run a game of chance (or a product promotional) you have to meet their standards. Generally these regs ensure that players aren't duped, manipulated or exploited by the house. If you don't meet these standards, you have to go somewhere else to set up shop.
Why does Nevada do this? I expect it's because games of chance are a huge part of their economy. It is in their best interest to ensure that people enjoy their games, and come again often. If you win, you know you did so fairly. If you lose, you knew what you were risking up front, and you can be assured that the deck wasn't stacked against you in any way.
You can gamble in states with fewer regulations if you choose, but you have a greater chance of getting the shaft, and fewer options to have your grievances addressed. Informed customers know this of course, and generally avoid a lot of hassles. Uninformed customers are unaware of these realities and more often find themselves in some out of the way area missing a shirt and wondering what happened.
The same goes for MMOs and their TCG tournaments it would seem. I'd play in one of Wow's tournaments, for example, and I love TCGs. I wouldn't touch SOE's with a ten foot pole, purely because I understand the differences between the two and the way they are run.
If the StarWars TCG tournaments ever met Nevada standards, I might change my mind, but not until then.
You don't need to speculate. Virrago from SOE clearly explained why the tournaments can't be offered in NV. It's up a few posts if you want the details. Here's the quick summary: "we cannot offer fee-based tournaments with prizes..."
You pay a fee, you play a game of chance, you hope to win a prize, but in many cases will not. It's not that hard to understand.
The TCG tournaments that are legal do not require you to risk anything financial to participate. They have no entry fee whatsoever. So, they can offer prizes in games of chance because there is no risk, or monetary gamble.
They appear to be product promotionals that meet all the relevant legislative requirements. You can do your own research on this if you like. Read the post above about legal TCG's in NV for a comparison, or google product promotionals, games of chance, regulations in Nevada if you like. It's not difficult to find.
If anyone is actually willing to see the differences, they're not at all hard to spot. The different level of risk to consumers is also very obvious, again only to those willing to see it. People who want to pretend that there are no differences won't see this (not referring to you specifically here Blazer), or admit it, I'm sure, but I've learned to accept that. It's really not my problem. People who are open to information, however, can only benefit by becoming more knowledgeable.
What arch is saying is that stupid people are incapable of learning.
That statement is not directed at any one person but it is a fact.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Sometimes I'm not sure if the problem is that some people can't learn, or if they simply refuse to see things for what they are. Maybe both are true at different times (shrug). At any rate, I do think that most people--given the right information--can become better informed consumers and side-step some potential pitfalls as a result ^_^.
Sometimes I get the impression that SOE assumes their players are stupid or something. The fact that they've lost so many of their customers, however, suggests that this is generally not the case. Gamers, by and large, do seem to be able to spot a bad deal, and walk away. I think this, more than anything, accounts for the ongoing population problems with this particular MMO. People seem to see what is being offered to them, see how other companies do business, and then vote with their feet. WoW's success is not an accident, and even in the way they run their TCG tournaments (see above post) I see important differences.
Precisely.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
Sometimes I'm not sure if the problem is that some people can't learn, or if they simply refuse to see things for what they are. Maybe both are true at different times (shrug). At any rate, I do think that most people--given the right information--can become better informed consumers and side-step some potential pitfalls as a result ^_^.
Sometimes I get the impression that SOE assumes their players are stupid or something. The fact that they've lost so many of their customers, however, suggests that this is generally not the case. Gamers, by and large, do seem to be able to spot a bad deal, and walk away. I think this, more than anything, accounts for the ongoing population problems with this particular MMO. People seem to see what is being offered to them, see how other companies do business, and then vote with their feet. WoW's success is not an accident, and even in the way they run their TCG tournaments (see above post) I see important differences.
I have not played EQ's Ledgends of Nororth(spelling
) but what you don't take into account is Lucas Arts understanding of Star Wars Fandom. Think about it. What fan base can be uncontrolablly obsessed with collecting single or multiple aspects of IP? Star Trek is comparable but not near the same level. Star Wars has had and stil has a strong collecting market out there. The original Decipher CCG was much like this new game in the mix of Rare and/or Loot cards. (One thing I really hated) What makes SWG: TCG different from its real world counterpart in its totally controlled by the offering company. I can still go to eBay and by Decipher CCGs; I can't with the TCG as its all in house. Lucas Arts was an easy sell on the TCG as they know and feel that this would play right in with those fans of SWG that still play the game. Obsessive and completest are a driving force in the money making scheme for Lucas Arts. Lucas Arts may say they "will continue supporting SWG" but I see the TCG as a last ditch money grab on those they prey on until they can get TOR out and be rid of thier "deal with the devil" in SOE. This is not saying SOE is blamless for card distribution and function role but share motive with its partner. Remember: SOE makes and runs it; Lucas Arts markets, packages, copyrights, advertises, approves, rates, market researches and distributes SWG.
This comes from a continuing player and Star Wars fan.
Precisely.
Yes, this is the way I see it also. This is about the tournaments, not the TCG itself.
Sometimes I'm not sure if the problem is that some people can't learn, or if they simply refuse to see things for what they are. Maybe both are true at different times (shrug). At any rate, I do think that most people--given the right information--can become better informed consumers and side-step some potential pitfalls as a result ^_^.
Sometimes I get the impression that SOE assumes their players are stupid or something. The fact that they've lost so many of their customers, however, suggests that this is generally not the case. Gamers, by and large, do seem to be able to spot a bad deal, and walk away. I think this, more than anything, accounts for the ongoing population problems with this particular MMO. People seem to see what is being offered to them, see how other companies do business, and then vote with their feet. WoW's success is not an accident, and even in the way they run their TCG tournaments (see above post) I see important differences.
I have not played EQ's Ledgends of Nororth(spelling
) but what you don't take into account is Lucas Arts understanding of Star Wars Fandom. Think about it. What fan base can be uncontrolablly obsessed with collecting single or multiple aspects of IP? Star Trek is comparable but not near the same level. Star Wars has had and stil has a strong collecting market out there. The original Decipher CCG was much like this new game in the mix of Rare and/or Loot cards. (One thing I really hated) What makes SWG: TCG different from its real world counterpart in its totally controlled by the offering company. I can still go to eBay and by Decipher CCGs; I can't with the TCG as its all in house. Lucas Arts was an easy sell on the TCG as they know and feel that this would play right in with those fans of SWG that still play the game. Obsessive and completest are a driving force in the money making scheme for Lucas Arts. Lucas Arts may say they "will continue supporting SWG" but I see the TCG as a last ditch money grab on those they prey on until they can get TOR out and be rid of thier "deal with the devil" in SOE. This is not saying SOE is blamless for card distribution and function role but share motive with its partner. Remember: SOE makes and runs it; Lucas Arts markets, packages, copyrights, advertises, approves, rates, market researches and distributes SWG.
This comes from a continuing player and Star Wars fan.
Hiya JY! I wouldn't be at all surprised if your view on LEC's involvement is accurate. It seems like a last ditch money grab for both companies before TOR comes out. It seems like such a short term cash grab that burns long-term bridges that any other scenario doesn't appear to make much sense.
Tbh I think shortly after the NGE mess that LEC started focusing their attention on Bioware and the next StarWars MMO. I think some of the higher calibre devs also went to Bioware. SOE seems to have been left to try to get as much out of SWG as they can in the meantime.
P.S. If anyone wants to find a way to have fun in SWG, such as it is, it's people like JYCowboy that you should try to hook up with. Classy guy.
I just noticed this now sorry. I actualy stop reading thread when certain posters start posting and assume that its just started as a bunch of trolling. In any event yes originally they were free. As I said originally the tournaments were free in most cases, but not always and qualified it. Many event passes are in fact obtained during round robin type sprint tournaments and you win them by winning the game. They originally were not for sale in the stores but I put in the word "yet". Anyhow the basis of what I was saying is that your taking the rules of a tournament which is occuring in person on Nevada soil and attempting to apply these rules about tournaments to a virtual tournament. The point being that well its occuring in cyberspace and the rules of the country of origin are not the only thing governing things here as the servers are as you know scattered (some west coast, east coast, central states) then the players are not actually in those states where the servers are they are actually playing in other countries/states. Like any virtual game the companies take this into account hence the "apple and oranges" thing. Anyhow if they are finally starting to charge for tournaments so be it. They originally were not and many of the "sprint" tournaments were free. The ones I attended were free this is how I know they do hold free tournaments. I could not win the event passes or other things they were offering at the time in the sprint tournaments, but I wanted to see what they were about and like many things I like to see what is inside the box, but dont want to pay money to do so. I played free sprint tournaments when the TCG first came out. Sony has big tournaments in legends of norrath and I know they charge for those. I remember oogling at one that had a 10,000 usd prize. The point being yes they are tournaments and to my knowledge tounrments never have been gambling. Players play against each other and no betting occurs. How does "the house" place odds on 100 or 1000 or 10,000 people playing a tournament? Its not random numbers here its card decks people have built within certain rule sets with their best cards and the only random part is when they shuffle the cards. The rest is being able to strategize to beat what you see occuring on the other side. The TCG's are classified as strategy games and not games of chance and tournaments by definition are not considered as games of chance as its the best player that wins and "the house" has nothing to do with it its just hosting them and giving the prizes to the winners. That is the basis for any tournament no matter who holds it be it Sony or Blizzard or (who you seem to hold in high esteem for some reason) or any other company.
Again I will reitterate you ARE comparing apples and organges here as one is actually occuring in person on nevada soil and the other tournament is occuring in cyberspace in all places at all times and that is why those words are written by sony and any other company that is doing something like this virtually. I think you will find the main governing factor in why they write what they write is in relation to where they house their servers and the main offices not in relation to nevada, los vegas or any foreign country.
summary cause I know I need to
Event passes are now obtained in three ways (it used to be only the first two ways)
a) the origial way by playing sprint tournaments and winning them the sprint tournaments were free
b) you can trade cards for them inside the game
c) and now sony is selling them
sooo these tournaments may or may not cost money depending on how you obtained the passes in the first place.
annnd
tournaments are not by nature gambling and the ones SOE is holding is just a plain old tournament
annnnd
as usual these threads are misrepresenting things the op speaks of gambling and then uses a tournament as an example .. but its a tournament ... /shrug
I still never see what the fuss is about and why people who like this stuff just can't like enter the tournaments and have fun and why this is even an issue this one card game out of them all is singled out among a veritable plethora of identical card games many of which were created by the same company, but this one of all others somehow is... deferent...
Yup legends of norrath is a TCG that has been occuring for years and no one has said anything about it. Its all a choice or how one wants to spend money and the bottom line is its a piece of a game which one can ignore or take part in of their own free will. Its run exactly the same as the SWG one and pretty much the same type of stuff is offered in both. I have played eq2 continuously since its very early days and never stopped (unlike with SWG I stopped for many years). I only logged into legends of norrath after I saw noise on this forum to see what was happening there and why all the uproar about TCG's that sony has been running for many many years its all of a sudden an issue.
Bottom line I still fail to see why those people that enjoy these games can't enjoy them if they are offered. They are all grown up and have chosen to become involved. I dont see any of them complaining of being ripped off they play the game and on occasion you see some guy in the world chat challenging someone else to a game or offering to sell his latest box of classless hats or something. Is anyone actually being hurt? I have not heard of anyone being hurt by these card games. Nor have I heard a single player complaining about gambling inside the game and the world chats in eq2 are usually abuzz with one controverial issue or a certain amount of "omg look what sony is doing now" discussions. The TCG is not something that I have ever heard a complaint about. Its just there and most of the population appears to not even know it exists. /shrug
Yup legends of norrath is a TCG that has been occuring for years and no one has said anything about it. Its all a choice or how one wants to spend money and the bottom line is its a piece of a game which one can ignore or take part in of their own free will. Its run exactly the same as the SWG one and pretty much the same type of stuff is offered in both. I have played eq2 continuously since its very early days and never stopped (unlike with SWG I stopped for many years). I only logged into legends of norrath after I saw noise on this forum to see what was happening there and why all the uproar about TCG's that sony has been running for many many years its all of a sudden an issue.
Bottom line I still fail to see why those people that enjoy these games can't enjoy them if they are offered. They are all grown up and have chosen to become involved. I dont see any of them complaining of being ripped off they play the game and on occasion you see some guy in the world chat challenging someone else to a game or offering to sell his latest box of classless hats or something. Is anyone actually being hurt? I have not heard of anyone being hurt by these card games. Nor have I heard a single player complaining about gambling inside the game and the world chats in eq2 are usually abuzz with one controverial issue or a certain amount of "omg look what sony is doing now" discussions. The TCG is not something that I have ever heard a complaint about. Its just there and most of the population appears to not even know it exists. /shrug
As an FYI, it took me all of two minutes to find the following comments about how people feel scammed by the TCG in SWG:
“Just want to say that I spent almost $200 on card booster packs and have had 2 xp cards, one vendor and one target dummy. That is a rediculously low loot drop rate for so many packs and such RL money. Have advised my friends and guild of it and it has saved them a bit of money in not wasting their money on packs.”
"I went over to the official forums and started reading a post about downtime caused due to implementing this new feature into the game, i thought to my self that was shocking enough itself. Then i started reading that some players have been spending over 100 dollars to try to get loot items and where complaining that they only got 3 decent cards, you can see that people will get drawn into this trading card scam and it will become an obsession for some, or addiction for others or worse the show off types could waste hundreds..."
and
"SOE are probably laughing all the way to the bank. I know two guys on my server who spent a combined total of nearl $1000 on booster packs the day the card game went live. I doubt they're the only ones to have spent that much money, and I should imagine even more people have bought smaller amounts."
“…it has been nearly a year since this TCG launched. Yet I can't count how many of these posts occur daily much less how many occur durring the normal month.” (from the official TCG forum)
All of these quotes are from public forums, btw. If you really want to know how this is impacting your fellow players, there ya go. From the last quote, it seems like the negative feedback occurs with great frequency and consistency.
SOE could probably follow the example of other TCG business models (see list above re. tournament play specifically) and avoid all of this controversy, and maybe even have more than just a handful of customers that seem to turn a blind eye to the way they do business. Why they refuse to do this, I may never understand. It's their choice I suppose. Just as it's mine to avoid them while they operate this way, and to let fellow gamers know what seems to be happening.
Yup legends of norrath is a TCG that has been occuring for years and no one has said anything about it. No one here or no one on the EQ2 forums?
It's all about context Ummax. I've not played EQ2 long enough to understand how their TCG affects that game or their community, and therefore don't feel informed enough to comment. But because I've not commented on EQ2's TCG doesn't mean I don't have an issue with it. I sincerly hope that those who do play EQ2 speak out against it though because I don't want to see this type of thing become the norm in MMO's.
Also, I'm not trying to be an ass here but I have two honest questions for you. Do you play EQ2? Do you defend their TCG as vehemently as you do SWG's?
To help curb the wanton collector lust of players, SOE limits how many boosters you can buy. You may only spend $250 per day in the shop. Oh, and that wasn't my purchase that discovered that.
Yup legends of norrath is a TCG that has been occuring for years and no one has said anything about it. Its all a choice or how one wants to spend money and the bottom line is its a piece of a game which one can ignore or take part in of their own free will. Its run exactly the same as the SWG one and pretty much the same type of stuff is offered in both. I have played eq2 continuously since its very early days and never stopped (unlike with SWG I stopped for many years). I only logged into legends of norrath after I saw noise on this forum to see what was happening there and why all the uproar about TCG's that sony has been running for many many years its all of a sudden an issue.
Bottom line I still fail to see why those people that enjoy these games can't enjoy them if they are offered. They are all grown up and have chosen to become involved. I dont see any of them complaining of being ripped off they play the game and on occasion you see some guy in the world chat challenging someone else to a game or offering to sell his latest box of classless hats or something. Is anyone actually being hurt? I have not heard of anyone being hurt by these card games. Nor have I heard a single player complaining about gambling inside the game and the world chats in eq2 are usually abuzz with one controverial issue or a certain amount of "omg look what sony is doing now" discussions. The TCG is not something that I have ever heard a complaint about. Its just there and most of the population appears to not even know it exists. /shrug
As an FYI, it took me all of two minutes to find the following comments about how people feel scammed by the TCG in SWG:
“Just want to say that I spent almost $200 on card booster packs and have had 2 xp cards, one vendor and one target dummy. That is a rediculously low loot drop rate for so many packs and such RL money. Have advised my friends and guild of it and it has saved them a bit of money in not wasting their money on packs.”
"I went over to the official forums and started reading a post about downtime caused due to implementing this new feature into the game, i thought to my self that was shocking enough itself. Then i started reading that some players have been spending over 100 dollars to try to get loot items and where complaining that they only got 3 decent cards, you can see that people will get drawn into this trading card scam and it will become an obsession for some, or addiction for others or worse the show off types could waste hundreds..."
and
"SOE are probably laughing all the way to the bank. I know two guys on my server who spent a combined total of nearl $1000 on booster packs the day the card game went live. I doubt they're the only ones to have spent that much money, and I should imagine even more people have bought smaller amounts."
“…it has been nearly a year since this TCG launched. Yet I can't count how many of these posts occur daily much less how many occur durring the normal month.” (from the official TCG forum)
All of these quotes are from public forums, btw. If you really want to know how this is impacting your fellow players, there ya go. From the last quote, it seems like the negative feedback occurs with great frequency and consistency.
SOE could probably follow the example of other TCG business models (see list above re. tournament play specifically) and avoid all of this controversy, and maybe even have more than just a handful of customers that seem to turn a blind eye to the way they do business. Why they refuse to do this, I may never understand. It's their choice I suppose. Just as it's mine to avoid them while they operate this way, and to let fellow gamers know what seems to be happening.
Sony is not "scamming" people pay for 200 bucks of booster packs and get 200 bucks of booster packs. Not everyone seems to be adult enough to know what they are purchasing. Also there is a limit to try to minimalize the cries of injustice of this so called scamming for people who seem to have no self control. You buy a deck of cards to play cards. These are bogus noisemakers and you know it. Sony has a trading CARD game and packages are sold for you to add to your CARD game. I have yet to hear of people not receiving their cards. There may have been a delay in a few cases but the cards always land in their accounts.
The problem here is you can't seperate chronic complainers who complain about litterally EVERYTHING from actual problems. They spend 250 bucks on cards and get cards there is no scam here period. Just in the imaginations of the posters. I roll my eyes when I see people complaining OMG I didn't get the barn and i spent 200 bucks on it. Well gee sorry its an added toy which has nothing to do with the TCG and some people well I wonder how old they are or what world they live in.
p.s. feeling scammed and actualy being scammed are two different things and I feel I should point out before I get told about what I said I was commenting on legends of norrath and eq2 and no one complaining about any of it not the SWG TCG which as usual seems to take the brunt of complaints even though this has been happening for years. /shrug
Yup legends of norrath is a TCG that has been occuring for years and no one has said anything about it. No one here or no one on the EQ2 forums?
It's all about context Ummax. I've not played EQ2 long enough to understand how their TCG affects that game or their community, and therefore don't feel informed enough to comment. But because I've not commented on EQ2's TCG doesn't mean I don't have an issue with it. I sincerly hope that those who do play EQ2 speak out against it though because I don't want to see this type of thing become the norm in MMO's.
Also, I'm not trying to be an ass here but I have two honest questions for you. Do you play EQ2? Do you defend their TCG as vehemently as you do SWG's?
well firstly I'm not defending anything. I read threads and some of them are so misleading I can't help but say something..
Yes I have played eq2 since 2005 and swg since 2003 I defend neither I simply post what I see. I'm a realist in most situations and realistically speaking as adults people have to learn how do deal with the world. I have as of yet not been "ripped off" by sony. I have however been massively ripped off by ncsoft but I dont spend my time on ncsoft game forums complaining about it as it occured well years and years ago. I had mentioned this before. There is no "good" company and as adults the world is a case of buyer beware. This thread however is pure and utter bunk though. People who buy cards for a free prize inside and then cry foul about it are usually the type that have no self control or ability to reason through things what-so-ever. It happens here and on ever other game I have seen. I have yet to see a company and company not accused of scamming including blizzard by the way. However the only companies I can comment on in the present are in fact sony because well I am right now for the moment only playing sony games.
NCSOFT had some employee issues when I played lineage 2 something beyond my control and what happened to me there beats anything I have come across that sony does as most of what sony does is in relation to advertising gimicks and attempts and increasing subscriptions. (normal everyday stuff that as an adult one has to learn to sort the bull from the reality of the situation). So here is what NCSOFT did to me and many others. It seems an employee decided to plant a keylogger in their downloaded update that you get automatically when files are patched. I got hacked hoy boy beyond belief and they lost so many people as a result of that as we pulled our credit card info and removed every trace of their stuff from our computers. I personally had to get a new credit card had to call in chargebacks and this is a company I trusted with my info. That's real theft and I have yet to encounter anything that matches that to this day in the gaming industry. Maybe its because I know what marketing is but that is all that sony is doing its marketing with the free prizes. However there seems to be no accounting for self accountability when it comes to SWG and companies that do the same things or similar things who have their share of "omg I have been scammed" people are heald up as shining examples of what is better. They are not better in any way shape or form in fact they are all pretty crappy as they are large faceless corporations that exist in reality for one purpose only which is to make money. Somehow though in the case of this company issues which are years old are the problem and very little new issues crop up. Sony has been making TCG's for years and years and they all follow the same basic set up yet suddenly YEARS later its become an issue. I dont think this is context people claim to be trying to help people know the truth. Well the truth here is that this so called "scamming" has in fact been occuring for years and the "haters" have not batted one eye on it or are really researching their "target" or whatever if they were these issues would have been talked about in a certain other forum below for years now in fact though they are not.
Was there much noise made about the TCG on eq2 forums? Nope we were too busy complaining about the problems with the crafting nerfs. I know this cause i was one of them