So Warhammer Online is a watered down WoW clone because the OP was stupid enough to play a PvP-based game thinking it's a PvE game? Crying about boring quests in WAR makes about as much sense as crying about there not being any Elves in Eve Online.
That would be a fine and dandy argument if WAR's PvP was good. It isn't.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Actually, the Warcraft world IS a rip-off of the Warhammer world. The folks at Blizzard wanted to make an RTS based of Warhammer. Games Workshop, in their infinate "wisdom", told them no. Warhammer was remade into Warcraft (note the similar names). Warcraft sold like wildfire. Enter Starcraft. Again a rip, this time of Warhammer 40,000, with just enough elements changed to avoid a lawsuit. Terrain Marines were similar to Space Marines. The Protoss very close the the Eldar, and the infamous Zerg? 100% Tyranid rip-off, right down to the hive mind that drives them. (Yes, Tyranids came well before Zerg)
Turnabout is fair play. The original Tyranid models (for the tabletop) were awful. I mean really bad. The Tyranids at the time were one of the least played, least collected armies out there. The Zerg helped revive them, and the Tyranids got new models that looked like...Zerg. Compare the Hydralisk to the Ravener if you don't believe me.
At this point, those two companies are so in bed with one another, neither can cry foul.
Games Workshop should be weeping blood right now over their choice so long ago. WAR cannot compare to WoW, and though Dawn of War (1 & 2) are a success, they will be blown away (sales-wise) by Starcraft 1 & 2. Add to that how bad Warhammer: Chaos March was, especially compared to Warcraft 1-3, and it is staggering how much potential cash GW lost. Could you imagine Blizzard with Warhammer 1-3, Starhammer, and World of Warhammer? Likewise, as well as they have done creating their own storyline, could you imagine how much better WoW would be with a storyline set in the Warhammer Fantasy universe?
One can only be left wondering what would have happened if GW gave permission to Blizzard all those years ago...
Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year. This is clearly demonstrated by books like "Everything Bad Is Good For You" and "Smartbomb". The MMORPG genre is not an exception to this rule. Simply, the problem is misguided nostalgia for older (simpler) times clouding judgement. Something like a "death penalty" is a good example. Death penalties are old hang-overs from simplistic early game design that placed arbitrary, time-consuming punishments on death to artificially extend the life of a game. A well designed modern game has no need for such a thing. The "penalty" for dying is dying, meaning - you lost. Get up and try again. There's no reason to waste time by making me do 50 jumping jacks before I can play again. It's the equivlent of "Insert Another Coin to Continue". Modern games are being streamlined, meaning old, unecessary features and outdated design concepts are being removed. It's easy to confuse this as "dumbing down". There's no reason to continue with oldschool pseudo-difficulty by forcing the player to wander around with no map, making them repetitiously click every NPC to see if they have a quest to offer or making them hit auto-run and wait 10 minutes to reach a corpse because these are old ideas in regards to adding "depth" to a game which are being slowly booted out of game design along with grinding and other antiquated concepts In short, I don't think that you're going to see many new games like the OP desires anymore, because they've already been done; and games, like all forms of entertainment, are evolving. There's nothing stopping you from continuing to play games with the old designs you enjoy and there will always be a niche for oldschool games to exist in. I enjoy them plenty myself. I just recognize that my enjoyment is primarily from nostalgia and not some misguided concept of Old Guard elitism.
Oh, no. No you didn't just say that.
I'll admit I often speak without thinking, and often have to eat my own words, but that, Sir, is bullshit.
"Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year."
Bullshit. Flat out bullshit and I will hold that position. Anyone who has been following MMO's for any length of time will back that up. At best you just said "Checkers is a more advanced game of Chess". Why? Because there are less pieces to keep track of? Because You might get Kinged instead of trading a hard-fought Pawn for a Queen?
Bullshit. Seriously. "Death penalties are a time sink". No They're there to remind you you effed-up. That the second "M" in MMO is for "Multiplayer". That you just let other people, other human beings trying to enjoy this game, down. Even if you don't care about Carmen in Philadelphia, you need to know you failed. It's a minor penalty for the most part. Don't come here and say it's some "Outmoded Time Sink."
This is just another example of the "Everyone's a Winner Nobody Can Fail Participant Ribbon" bullcrap that we're stuck with today. Anything worth having is worth earning. Games, Sports, or Careers, it's not worth it if it's just handed over.
Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year. This is clearly demonstrated by books like "Everything Bad Is Good For You" and "Smartbomb". The MMORPG genre is not an exception to this rule. Simply, the problem is misguided nostalgia for older (simpler) times clouding judgement. Something like a "death penalty" is a good example. Death penalties are old hang-overs from simplistic early game design that placed arbitrary, time-consuming punishments on death to artificially extend the life of a game. A well designed modern game has no need for such a thing. The "penalty" for dying is dying, meaning - you lost. Get up and try again. There's no reason to waste time by making me do 50 jumping jacks before I can play again. It's the equivlent of "Insert Another Coin to Continue". Modern games are being streamlined, meaning old, unecessary features and outdated design concepts are being removed. It's easy to confuse this as "dumbing down". There's no reason to continue with oldschool pseudo-difficulty by forcing the player to wander around with no map, making them repetitiously click every NPC to see if they have a quest to offer or making them hit auto-run and wait 10 minutes to reach a corpse because these are old ideas in regards to adding "depth" to a game which are being slowly booted out of game design along with grinding and other antiquated concepts In short, I don't think that you're going to see many new games like the OP desires anymore, because they've already been done; and games, like all forms of entertainment, are evolving. There's nothing stopping you from continuing to play games with the old designs you enjoy and there will always be a niche for oldschool games to exist in. I enjoy them plenty myself. I just recognize that my enjoyment is primarily from nostalgia and not some misguided concept of Old Guard elitism.
Oh, no. No you didn't just say that.
I'll admit I often speak without thinking, and often have to eat my own words, but that, Sir, is bullshit.
"Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year."
Bullshit. Flat out bullshit and I will hold that position. Anyone who has been following MMO's for any length of time will back that up. At best you just said "Checkers is a more advanced game of Chess". Why? Because there are less pieces to keep track of? Because You might get Kinged instead of trading a hard-fought Pawn for a Queen?
Bullshit. Seriously. "Death penalties are a time sink". No They're there to remind you you effed-up. That the second "M" in MMO is for "Multiplayer". That you just let other people, other human beings trying to enjoy this game, down. Even if you don't care about Carmen in Philadelphia, you need to know you failed. It's a minor penalty for the most part. Don't come here and say it's some "Outmoded Time Sink."
This is just another example of the "Everyone's a Winner Nobody Can Fail Participant Ribbon" bullcrap that we're stuck with today. Anything worth having is worth earning. Games, Sports, or Careers, it's not worth it if it's just handed over.
I back your official position of "Bullshit". You are correct.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
AHH hell ill be the 1st to say it. Why do we bother complaining about these games any more? I honestly think that the more we complain the worse it becomes. So the new generation of MMO players are pretty much just button smashers. I guess it makes sence. I mean hell Not like most can even hold intrest unless it has pretty flashing lights. I say this with no doupt in my mind. We can bitch and complain all we want but all thats goin to come of it is mindless posts insulting each other. Mabey if 10 or 15 of you got togather in real life, Sat down and started writeing a new MMO we might be geting some were.
Hell thats what i am doing. My friends kept bitching about how dumbed down MMO's are so i sat down and started writeing. Who knows mabey my game will be published in the future. An if it dos i Assure you that the game i make will be for the more goal orinted player. With very little button smashing as possiable. But hell i love reading these it make me have an idea what real gamers want.
is this really where we want this genre to head? the easy, mind numbing wack a mole games with no community no goals giant a giant circle jerk frag fest? could solo quests get anymore dumbed down ... and then on top of that theres no social mobs, so "hey i need that dwarf commander inside the building full of other dwards ... here let me attack him while all other watch. Grouping? do people even group up for anything in this game? heck i found it more of a deterent if i tried to group with someone. And of course Death, because we wouldn't want to bruise someones ego ... death will be a free trip back to your bind point nothing more.
you like WoW or WARs style, great good for you im glad you enjoy your game. but can someone create a game for those of us that want corpse runs, don't want our hands held with quests, want to have epic mob encounters and fight alongside other likeminded people while exploring dungeons. I want fear as i enter a new zone and i want to feel that accomplishment as i get to max level.
oh and before someone says it ... Darkfall sucks too.
Greetings..well all i can say is one word...Vanguard,yes that game that had a bad release over two years ago is not the same buggy mess it was then. I could go into a rant about what makes it the best PVE mmorpg out there at the moment and if people gave the PVP ffa gold coin loot server a chance you could have some great PVP as well.
It's vast and i mean vast world which makes DarkFall look small and it has to end graphics and some great classes plus real time hoiusing villages and ship building plus diplomacy and the best crafting system to date,that includes SWG,i have played both.
Vanguard is what EQ2 should of been with corpse runs and xp loss plus no instanced dungeons at all.
Try the trail,you have nothing to lose and come back and tell me i am not wrong. All the people who love a great open ended mmorpg where you can level up diplomacy or crafting without killing a single mob or you can be an adventurere or all 3. Guild castles and vast amount of content that you will never see unless you start in all of the 16 starting areas.
People who believe the hype about VG without actually trying the game themselves are missing a magical mmorpg akin to EQ1 days.
The list goes on.. no credit card needed.. you wont be sorry...
Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year. This is clearly demonstrated by books like "Everything Bad Is Good For You" and "Smartbomb". The MMORPG genre is not an exception to this rule. Simply, the problem is misguided nostalgia for older (simpler) times clouding judgement. Something like a "death penalty" is a good example. Death penalties are old hang-overs from simplistic early game design that placed arbitrary, time-consuming punishments on death to artificially extend the life of a game. A well designed modern game has no need for such a thing. The "penalty" for dying is dying, meaning - you lost. Get up and try again. There's no reason to waste time by making me do 50 jumping jacks before I can play again. It's the equivlent of "Insert Another Coin to Continue". Modern games are being streamlined, meaning old, unecessary features and outdated design concepts are being removed. It's easy to confuse this as "dumbing down". There's no reason to continue with oldschool pseudo-difficulty by forcing the player to wander around with no map, making them repetitiously click every NPC to see if they have a quest to offer or making them hit auto-run and wait 10 minutes to reach a corpse because these are old ideas in regards to adding "depth" to a game which are being slowly booted out of game design along with grinding and other antiquated concepts In short, I don't think that you're going to see many new games like the OP desires anymore, because they've already been done; and games, like all forms of entertainment, are evolving. There's nothing stopping you from continuing to play games with the old designs you enjoy and there will always be a niche for oldschool games to exist in. I enjoy them plenty myself. I just recognize that my enjoyment is primarily from nostalgia and not some misguided concept of Old Guard elitism.
Oh, no. No you didn't just say that.
I'll admit I often speak without thinking, and often have to eat my own words, but that, Sir, is bullshit.
"Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year."
Bullshit. Flat out bullshit and I will hold that position. Anyone who has been following MMO's for any length of time will back that up. At best you just said "Checkers is a more advanced game of Chess". Why? Because there are less pieces to keep track of? Because You might get Kinged instead of trading a hard-fought Pawn for a Queen?
Bullshit. Seriously. "Death penalties are a time sink". No They're there to remind you you effed-up. That the second "M" in MMO is for "Multiplayer". That you just let other people, other human beings trying to enjoy this game, down. Even if you don't care about Carmen in Philadelphia, you need to know you failed. It's a minor penalty for the most part. Don't come here and say it's some "Outmoded Time Sink."
This is just another example of the "Everyone's a Winner Nobody Can Fail Participant Ribbon" bullcrap that we're stuck with today. Anything worth having is worth earning. Games, Sports, or Careers, it's not worth it if it's just handed over.
I tend to agree more with Adrammelech because I play to have fun, not restart after I die. But this is just me, some people like more of a challenge to have fun, I dont. It's more or less personal prefrence.
Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year. This is clearly demonstrated by books like "Everything Bad Is Good For You" and "Smartbomb". The MMORPG genre is not an exception to this rule. Simply, the problem is misguided nostalgia for older (simpler) times clouding judgement. Something like a "death penalty" is a good example. Death penalties are old hang-overs from simplistic early game design that placed arbitrary, time-consuming punishments on death to artificially extend the life of a game. A well designed modern game has no need for such a thing. The "penalty" for dying is dying, meaning - you lost. Get up and try again. There's no reason to waste time by making me do 50 jumping jacks before I can play again. It's the equivlent of "Insert Another Coin to Continue". Modern games are being streamlined, meaning old, unecessary features and outdated design concepts are being removed. It's easy to confuse this as "dumbing down". There's no reason to continue with oldschool pseudo-difficulty by forcing the player to wander around with no map, making them repetitiously click every NPC to see if they have a quest to offer or making them hit auto-run and wait 10 minutes to reach a corpse because these are old ideas in regards to adding "depth" to a game which are being slowly booted out of game design along with grinding and other antiquated concepts In short, I don't think that you're going to see many new games like the OP desires anymore, because they've already been done; and games, like all forms of entertainment, are evolving. There's nothing stopping you from continuing to play games with the old designs you enjoy and there will always be a niche for oldschool games to exist in. I enjoy them plenty myself. I just recognize that my enjoyment is primarily from nostalgia and not some misguided concept of Old Guard elitism.
Oh, no. No you didn't just say that.
I'll admit I often speak without thinking, and often have to eat my own words, but that, Sir, is bullshit.
"Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year."
Bullshit. Flat out bullshit and I will hold that position. Anyone who has been following MMO's for any length of time will back that up. At best you just said "Checkers is a more advanced game of Chess". Why? Because there are less pieces to keep track of? Because You might get Kinged instead of trading a hard-fought Pawn for a Queen?
Bullshit. Seriously. "Death penalties are a time sink". No They're there to remind you you effed-up. That the second "M" in MMO is for "Multiplayer". That you just let other people, other human beings trying to enjoy this game, down. Even if you don't care about Carmen in Philadelphia, you need to know you failed. It's a minor penalty for the most part. Don't come here and say it's some "Outmoded Time Sink."
This is just another example of the "Everyone's a Winner Nobody Can Fail Participant Ribbon" bullcrap that we're stuck with today. Anything worth having is worth earning. Games, Sports, or Careers, it's not worth it if it's just handed over.
I back your official position of "Bullshit". You are correct.
I call bullshit on both of you. Adrammelech is perfectly correct. Just because you don't like his analysis, doesn't make it any less true. You are old school, your thought processes are old school and your desire to implement game mechanics that punish rather than entertain is frighteningly sick. Thank God most people are not masochists and are not willing to put up with those old, outdated and primarily bullshit mechanics from the glory days of EQ.
You are no longer the target audience, deal with it or get the hell out of the genre.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year. This is clearly demonstrated by books like "Everything Bad Is Good For You" and "Smartbomb". The MMORPG genre is not an exception to this rule. Simply, the problem is misguided nostalgia for older (simpler) times clouding judgement. Something like a "death penalty" is a good example. Death penalties are old hang-overs from simplistic early game design that placed arbitrary, time-consuming punishments on death to artificially extend the life of a game. A well designed modern game has no need for such a thing. The "penalty" for dying is dying, meaning - you lost. Get up and try again. There's no reason to waste time by making me do 50 jumping jacks before I can play again. It's the equivlent of "Insert Another Coin to Continue". Modern games are being streamlined, meaning old, unecessary features and outdated design concepts are being removed. It's easy to confuse this as "dumbing down". There's no reason to continue with oldschool pseudo-difficulty by forcing the player to wander around with no map, making them repetitiously click every NPC to see if they have a quest to offer or making them hit auto-run and wait 10 minutes to reach a corpse because these are old ideas in regards to adding "depth" to a game which are being slowly booted out of game design along with grinding and other antiquated concepts In short, I don't think that you're going to see many new games like the OP desires anymore, because they've already been done; and games, like all forms of entertainment, are evolving. There's nothing stopping you from continuing to play games with the old designs you enjoy and there will always be a niche for oldschool games to exist in. I enjoy them plenty myself. I just recognize that my enjoyment is primarily from nostalgia and not some misguided concept of Old Guard elitism.
Oh, no. No you didn't just say that.
I'll admit I often speak without thinking, and often have to eat my own words, but that, Sir, is bullshit.
"Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year."
Bullshit. Flat out bullshit and I will hold that position. Anyone who has been following MMO's for any length of time will back that up. At best you just said "Checkers is a more advanced game of Chess". Why? Because there are less pieces to keep track of? Because You might get Kinged instead of trading a hard-fought Pawn for a Queen?
Bullshit. Seriously. "Death penalties are a time sink". No They're there to remind you you effed-up. That the second "M" in MMO is for "Multiplayer". That you just let other people, other human beings trying to enjoy this game, down. Even if you don't care about Carmen in Philadelphia, you need to know you failed. It's a minor penalty for the most part. Don't come here and say it's some "Outmoded Time Sink."
This is just another example of the "Everyone's a Winner Nobody Can Fail Participant Ribbon" bullcrap that we're stuck with today. Anything worth having is worth earning. Games, Sports, or Careers, it's not worth it if it's just handed over.
I back your official position of "Bullshit". You are correct.
I call bullshit on both of you. Adrammelech is perfectly correct. Just because you don't like his analysis, doesn't make it any less true. You are old school, your thought processes are old school and your desire to implement game mechanics that punish rather than entertain is frighteningly sick. Thank God most people are not masochists and are not willing to put up with those old, outdated and primarily bullshit mechanics from the glory days of EQ.
You are no longer the target audience, deal with it or get the hell out of the genre.
=FAIL
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I think alot of people are missing the point with Warhammer.....IMO it shouldnt have any quests outside of RVR and scenarios....By having the regular quests in the game people start to assume that it is a PVE game when it is not.......The point of the game is RVR PVP not PVE......THe PVP is 1000x better than WoW......
Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year. This is clearly demonstrated by books like "Everything Bad Is Good For You" and "Smartbomb". The MMORPG genre is not an exception to this rule. Simply, the problem is misguided nostalgia for older (simpler) times clouding judgement. Something like a "death penalty" is a good example. Death penalties are old hang-overs from simplistic early game design that placed arbitrary, time-consuming punishments on death to artificially extend the life of a game. A well designed modern game has no need for such a thing. The "penalty" for dying is dying, meaning - you lost. Get up and try again. There's no reason to waste time by making me do 50 jumping jacks before I can play again. It's the equivlent of "Insert Another Coin to Continue". Modern games are being streamlined, meaning old, unecessary features and outdated design concepts are being removed. It's easy to confuse this as "dumbing down". There's no reason to continue with oldschool pseudo-difficulty by forcing the player to wander around with no map, making them repetitiously click every NPC to see if they have a quest to offer or making them hit auto-run and wait 10 minutes to reach a corpse because these are old ideas in regards to adding "depth" to a game which are being slowly booted out of game design along with grinding and other antiquated concepts In short, I don't think that you're going to see many new games like the OP desires anymore, because they've already been done; and games, like all forms of entertainment, are evolving. There's nothing stopping you from continuing to play games with the old designs you enjoy and there will always be a niche for oldschool games to exist in. I enjoy them plenty myself. I just recognize that my enjoyment is primarily from nostalgia and not some misguided concept of Old Guard elitism.
Oh, no. No you didn't just say that.
I'll admit I often speak without thinking, and often have to eat my own words, but that, Sir, is bullshit.
"Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year."
Bullshit. Flat out bullshit and I will hold that position. Anyone who has been following MMO's for any length of time will back that up. At best you just said "Checkers is a more advanced game of Chess". Why? Because there are less pieces to keep track of? Because You might get Kinged instead of trading a hard-fought Pawn for a Queen?
Bullshit. Seriously. "Death penalties are a time sink". No They're there to remind you you effed-up. That the second "M" in MMO is for "Multiplayer". That you just let other people, other human beings trying to enjoy this game, down. Even if you don't care about Carmen in Philadelphia, you need to know you failed. It's a minor penalty for the most part. Don't come here and say it's some "Outmoded Time Sink."
This is just another example of the "Everyone's a Winner Nobody Can Fail Participant Ribbon" bullcrap that we're stuck with today. Anything worth having is worth earning. Games, Sports, or Careers, it's not worth it if it's just handed over.
I back your official position of "Bullshit". You are correct.
I call bullshit on both of you. Adrammelech is perfectly correct. Just because you don't like his analysis, doesn't make it any less true. You are old school, your thought processes are old school and your desire to implement game mechanics that punish rather than entertain is frighteningly sick. Thank God most people are not masochists and are not willing to put up with those old, outdated and primarily bullshit mechanics from the glory days of EQ.
You are no longer the target audience, deal with it or get the hell out of the genre.
=FAIL
No you fail.
You guys can't follow the industry anymore: more skills, better programming and far - less meaningless time sinks.
wow....FAIL and won't go down without common sense....
I have played more games than you or your family combined.....and I think you are wrong.
calling some one "Old School" is nothing less than a compliment. Games have evolved....but not because us "Old Schoolers" had no say. We are the ones who have driven games....and the direction....so show respect
We know what is good....cause we have pointed the direction....newb
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year. This is clearly demonstrated by books like "Everything Bad Is Good For You" and "Smartbomb". The MMORPG genre is not an exception to this rule. Simply, the problem is misguided nostalgia for older (simpler) times clouding judgement. Something like a "death penalty" is a good example. Death penalties are old hang-overs from simplistic early game design that placed arbitrary, time-consuming punishments on death to artificially extend the life of a game. A well designed modern game has no need for such a thing. The "penalty" for dying is dying, meaning - you lost. Get up and try again. There's no reason to waste time by making me do 50 jumping jacks before I can play again. It's the equivlent of "Insert Another Coin to Continue". Modern games are being streamlined, meaning old, unecessary features and outdated design concepts are being removed. It's easy to confuse this as "dumbing down". There's no reason to continue with oldschool pseudo-difficulty by forcing the player to wander around with no map, making them repetitiously click every NPC to see if they have a quest to offer or making them hit auto-run and wait 10 minutes to reach a corpse because these are old ideas in regards to adding "depth" to a game which are being slowly booted out of game design along with grinding and other antiquated concepts In short, I don't think that you're going to see many new games like the OP desires anymore, because they've already been done; and games, like all forms of entertainment, are evolving. There's nothing stopping you from continuing to play games with the old designs you enjoy and there will always be a niche for oldschool games to exist in. I enjoy them plenty myself. I just recognize that my enjoyment is primarily from nostalgia and not some misguided concept of Old Guard elitism.
Oh, no. No you didn't just say that.
I'll admit I often speak without thinking, and often have to eat my own words, but that, Sir, is bullshit.
"Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year."
Bullshit. Flat out bullshit and I will hold that position. Anyone who has been following MMO's for any length of time will back that up. At best you just said "Checkers is a more advanced game of Chess". Why? Because there are less pieces to keep track of? Because You might get Kinged instead of trading a hard-fought Pawn for a Queen?
Bullshit. Seriously. "Death penalties are a time sink". No They're there to remind you you effed-up. That the second "M" in MMO is for "Multiplayer". That you just let other people, other human beings trying to enjoy this game, down. Even if you don't care about Carmen in Philadelphia, you need to know you failed. It's a minor penalty for the most part. Don't come here and say it's some "Outmoded Time Sink."
This is just another example of the "Everyone's a Winner Nobody Can Fail Participant Ribbon" bullcrap that we're stuck with today. Anything worth having is worth earning. Games, Sports, or Careers, it's not worth it if it's just handed over.
I back your official position of "Bullshit". You are correct.
If I look at the intelligent boss fights in TBC and WotLK and I compare them with the tank/spank fights and zillion of uselss mobs of MMO's back in the "good old times", I know the word "bullshit" is out of place.
I wasn't referring to scritped fights, so I don't really care about this point. Sure, I'll give it to you, raid fights are better now, but I never really cared about raid fights anyway.
No serious raid guild in Wow wants even to raid without deadly boss and about a million other add-ons these days....
Is that an indication of a rise in WoW difficulty, or a rise in player laziness? Most people complain that WoW is too easy now, yet people use all of these add-ons to make it easier.
-----
0f course present day games are FAR more better programmed
Possibly true. Programming quality varies between games and studios, which is evident when comparing a game like WoW to a game like AoC.
than the older crap in which time sinks, bad programming and massive time sink attunements were considered "meaningful".
Doesn't have much to do with programming, more game design. Some time sinks are simply annoying, some are necessary. I would consider WoW's leveling a completely pointless and annoying time sink, while I consider Eve's death penalty a necessary one.
At least now someone with a WotLK red dragon is downing raid bosses on technical and group skills and NOT on time sinks.
Perhaps, but Blizzard has turned downing the raid bosses into the timesink itself. People must down those bosses over and over again until the group running the raid has enough collective gear to move onto the next raid/timesink.
It is a complete different mentality of course.
Slowly gaining ground with those playing them and seeing the far better challenges.
Only the super egos of so called old grognards don't see this.
But that's why they don't evolve and are becoming very old complaining dudes.
The industry is moving along and you guys with the super egos don't even follow.
If you simply want to talk about raids, sure, games may be more complex today. I personally don't care for raiding much. You want to talk about nearly anything beyond raids, games are degressing violently. From crafting, to social tools, player interaction, character building, risk vs. reward, you name it, it has been dumbed down in recent years.
Just compare SWG crafting to WoWs, or compare Guild War's Skill system to any random generic "Talent points" system, or Eve's political and social interactions to any other game out there, things are getting simpler and simpler. Can't be denied.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I think alot of people are missing the point with Warhammer.....IMO it shouldnt have any quests outside of RVR and scenarios....By having the regular quests in the game people start to assume that it is a PVE game when it is not.......The point of the game is RVR PVP not PVE......THe PVP is 1000x better than WoW......
I would completely disagree with this. I think WoW's PvP, unbalanced as it may be, is far better than WAR's. WAR's PvP is far too clunky and detached for my tastes, where as WoW's PvP is fairly fluid, and can be pretty intense at times.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
To the OP: I feel your pain. As a longtime Warhammer (TT and FB) player, I was hoping for a dark, gritty, in-depth world. Instead I got 'Capture-the-Flag-for-a-Monthly-Fee'. WAR was so bad I cancelled my sub to it and WoW. That's how tired I was of this crap. There are other MMO's out there to try, tho. I still like COH/COH for fast action, and EVE for in-depth gaming. If you look around I'm sure you'll find something you'll like. Just don't follow the "OMG This New Game Will Be the Best!!" train. Ask about some older games that still have a strong player base. That's the real sign of success. Oh, yeah. Darkfall still looks to be teh suck. I'm waiting to see if they can pull the 'rabbit that lays golden pwnage eggs' out of their hat, tho.
I feel both of your pains To begin with i started out playing D&D back in the begining then when computers came out it was the MUD games on a 900 baud connection :P,then for awhile there until Meridian59,UO,EQ changed the whole genure we played either single player games and or sports and Sims,from Sid Meier.
Now we are all spoiled with fast connections and 3D graphics.
Anyhow on about Warhammer Online the original creaters and Wizards of the Coast had a good thing going untill the the team makeing ran short on cash and sold it to Mythic ho revamped the whole game from the original and messed it up.
Well earlier in Teir 2 on Pheonix Throne we had AT LEAST a 2 hour massive war with like 3 WBs on 2-3 WBs in the empire vs chaos area. It was some tough shit keeping the destro out of our keeps. I wouldn't call it carebear or watered down.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year. This is clearly demonstrated by books like "Everything Bad Is Good For You" and "Smartbomb". The MMORPG genre is not an exception to this rule. Simply, the problem is misguided nostalgia for older (simpler) times clouding judgement. Something like a "death penalty" is a good example. Death penalties are old hang-overs from simplistic early game design that placed arbitrary, time-consuming punishments on death to artificially extend the life of a game. A well designed modern game has no need for such a thing. The "penalty" for dying is dying, meaning - you lost. Get up and try again. There's no reason to waste time by making me do 50 jumping jacks before I can play again. It's the equivlent of "Insert Another Coin to Continue". Modern games are being streamlined, meaning old, unecessary features and outdated design concepts are being removed. It's easy to confuse this as "dumbing down". There's no reason to continue with oldschool pseudo-difficulty by forcing the player to wander around with no map, making them repetitiously click every NPC to see if they have a quest to offer or making them hit auto-run and wait 10 minutes to reach a corpse because these are old ideas in regards to adding "depth" to a game which are being slowly booted out of game design along with grinding and other antiquated concepts In short, I don't think that you're going to see many new games like the OP desires anymore, because they've already been done; and games, like all forms of entertainment, are evolving. There's nothing stopping you from continuing to play games with the old designs you enjoy and there will always be a niche for oldschool games to exist in. I enjoy them plenty myself. I just recognize that my enjoyment is primarily from nostalgia and not some misguided concept of Old Guard elitism.
I agree with your post except for the portion I highlighted in red.
Grinding is never going to be booted out of MMORPG design. Grinding IS the game. With the possible exception of Guild Wars and its free-to-play ilk, every single game in this genre exists for one reason: to get you to subscribe month after month and provide a source of recurring revenue for the developers/publishers.
WoW is a grind, WAR is a grind, EVE is a grind, LotRo is a grind, they are all designed to dangle carrots, which people happily chase for want of anything better to do.
Game design may be evolving in terms of becoming friendlier to a wider audience, but grind is certainly not being eliminated. It is the reason for the game's existence and the fundamental design decision upon which all others are based.
I would like to compare these new trends with the old wargames I used to play back in the 70's. We played the complete "WW2 in Europe" games on a giant map for 4 meters X 5 meters with 4000+ counters. Played on a divisional scale the game would last between 500 hours and 1000 hours. The game we played once with two teams of 4 people lasted a full year with the map laying on my attic. Of course these games were epic, of course these games were great, but they were full of errors and a LOT was unpolished and played with errors. WE were the REAL wargame grognards back then. Or so we thought. The MORE difficult and BIG a game was, the better it was considered. Advanced Squad leader had ... 400 pages of rules just to play infantry Cie battles.... Of course, now after 30 years we know better. Better games came along, with far more streamlining and polish... and STILL having the same insight of historical battles, but playable in 20 hours or even 10, so we still had those epic moments and STILL had time for our family and RL. --- The above shows exactly what is going on in this industry. The online gameplay is evolving and of course the newer games use better programming and play value techniques. It is a sign the industry is in an evolution and it can't be stopped. Seriously, what happend to the old wargames, or fantasy games of first computer games is now happeing to the mmorpg industry and believe me .... .... in 20 years everybody will look back at Wow and say it was a meaningful step in the right direction. ---
I'll agree with you about polish. I wish every MMO had the polish that WoW has, no question about it.
Gameplay mechanics, that is entirely objectional, and I disagree with you. WoW was made simple on purpose. They wanted it to be accessible to the masses, and they achieved their goal. You make like WoW's linear, loot based, class/level style, and that is fine. I much prefer a sandbox, player driven economy, with an open skill based system any day. Thats fine too.
I think that saying WoW's class system is an evolution over previously encarnated skill systems is false.
Oh, and stop citing programming, as it's influence is negligable. C++ was first available in 1985, so these MMOs are pretty much all made with the same language(except WURM is Java, and I heard SWG may have been Java too but I don't know if that is true or not). Programming has nothing to do with this discussion. Programming is just a tool, we are talking about game design.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I think alot of people are missing the point with Warhammer.....IMO it shouldnt have any quests outside of RVR and scenarios....By having the regular quests in the game people start to assume that it is a PVE game when it is not.......The point of the game is RVR PVP not PVE......THe PVP is 1000x better than WoW......
For sake of thread you should elaborate. In what ways is it superior?
I did like how WAR included realtime collision. Howevr, I dont like games that have different factions. I think pvpers should access to same Classes for self balancing pvp
I like how the self proclaimed "hard core" players are coming down on him like they're some sort of priviledged gods among men. Hardcorez vs Casualz, serious business!
I like how the self proclaimed "hard core" players are coming down on him like they're some sort of priviledged gods among men. Hardcorez vs Casualz, serious business! That being said, yeah, WAR is pretty shite.
Whatever show me a post where someone acted like 'god'. The guy acts like he cant find a good game that has hardcore penalties. If he can't, he's just not looking. Or he is looking at the wrong place (WAR)....
No one is a self proclaimed 'hardcore' player that's bullshit. People like myself simply prefer a game with more depth then kid's MMOs (aka WoW)
How can you suggest that corpse runs/xp penalties are nothing but a time sink?
Take lineage 2. Dieing means losing your CRUCIAL buffs, spawning with half your effective hp, and being across the world. On top of the run back and the xp loss.
It all comes back to risk vs. reward. Some people enjoy the thrill of knowing that if they fuck up and die they will have to pay for it. It's the thrill of the whole thing, it raises the stakes, makes what you accomplish feel more meaningful. It's a personal preference and can't simply be boiled down to "old school/new school". It's not factual, it's truely subjective.
Whoever said the genre is changing and people are being left behind after you're rhetoric you spewed (a bunch of blah blah blah opinions that you tried to peddle as facts). Well, this may be the only thing you're right about... But it still doesn't prove that "old school" is worse than "new school" which is what you are indeed implying.
I think we can all agree WoW appealed to a bigger audience than the "old school" MMOs, however, there's no way to say it's "revolutionized" MMOs in the sense that it's improved upon everything (because that's completely subjective) It's only "revolutionized" the genre in the sense that it now appeals to more people (call those people what you want...casual, not "hardcore",etc whatever)
So essentially the argument we have here is a matter of opinion and we're acting as if it can be proven factual which is completely pointless.
I've probably said enough but let me leave you with an example. The music we hear has changed drastically (as in what is played on the mainstream radio). However, how can you argue that rock music from the 50's and 60's is any better or worse than what we have now? Seriously, think before you generalize. Thank you
Comments
That would be a fine and dandy argument if WAR's PvP was good. It isn't.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Actually, the Warcraft world IS a rip-off of the Warhammer world. The folks at Blizzard wanted to make an RTS based of Warhammer. Games Workshop, in their infinate "wisdom", told them no. Warhammer was remade into Warcraft (note the similar names). Warcraft sold like wildfire. Enter Starcraft. Again a rip, this time of Warhammer 40,000, with just enough elements changed to avoid a lawsuit. Terrain Marines were similar to Space Marines. The Protoss very close the the Eldar, and the infamous Zerg? 100% Tyranid rip-off, right down to the hive mind that drives them. (Yes, Tyranids came well before Zerg)
Turnabout is fair play. The original Tyranid models (for the tabletop) were awful. I mean really bad. The Tyranids at the time were one of the least played, least collected armies out there. The Zerg helped revive them, and the Tyranids got new models that looked like...Zerg. Compare the Hydralisk to the Ravener if you don't believe me.
At this point, those two companies are so in bed with one another, neither can cry foul.
Games Workshop should be weeping blood right now over their choice so long ago. WAR cannot compare to WoW, and though Dawn of War (1 & 2) are a success, they will be blown away (sales-wise) by Starcraft 1 & 2. Add to that how bad Warhammer: Chaos March was, especially compared to Warcraft 1-3, and it is staggering how much potential cash GW lost. Could you imagine Blizzard with Warhammer 1-3, Starhammer, and World of Warhammer? Likewise, as well as they have done creating their own storyline, could you imagine how much better WoW would be with a storyline set in the Warhammer Fantasy universe?
One can only be left wondering what would have happened if GW gave permission to Blizzard all those years ago...
-Xerek
Oh, no. No you didn't just say that.
I'll admit I often speak without thinking, and often have to eat my own words, but that, Sir, is bullshit.
"Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year."
Bullshit. Flat out bullshit and I will hold that position. Anyone who has been following MMO's for any length of time will back that up. At best you just said "Checkers is a more advanced game of Chess". Why? Because there are less pieces to keep track of? Because You might get Kinged instead of trading a hard-fought Pawn for a Queen?
Bullshit. Seriously. "Death penalties are a time sink". No They're there to remind you you effed-up. That the second "M" in MMO is for "Multiplayer". That you just let other people, other human beings trying to enjoy this game, down. Even if you don't care about Carmen in Philadelphia, you need to know you failed. It's a minor penalty for the most part. Don't come here and say it's some "Outmoded Time Sink."
This is just another example of the "Everyone's a Winner Nobody Can Fail Participant Ribbon" bullcrap that we're stuck with today. Anything worth having is worth earning. Games, Sports, or Careers, it's not worth it if it's just handed over.
Oh, no. No you didn't just say that.
I'll admit I often speak without thinking, and often have to eat my own words, but that, Sir, is bullshit.
"Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year."
Bullshit. Flat out bullshit and I will hold that position. Anyone who has been following MMO's for any length of time will back that up. At best you just said "Checkers is a more advanced game of Chess". Why? Because there are less pieces to keep track of? Because You might get Kinged instead of trading a hard-fought Pawn for a Queen?
Bullshit. Seriously. "Death penalties are a time sink". No They're there to remind you you effed-up. That the second "M" in MMO is for "Multiplayer". That you just let other people, other human beings trying to enjoy this game, down. Even if you don't care about Carmen in Philadelphia, you need to know you failed. It's a minor penalty for the most part. Don't come here and say it's some "Outmoded Time Sink."
This is just another example of the "Everyone's a Winner Nobody Can Fail Participant Ribbon" bullcrap that we're stuck with today. Anything worth having is worth earning. Games, Sports, or Careers, it's not worth it if it's just handed over.
I back your official position of "Bullshit". You are correct.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
AHH hell ill be the 1st to say it. Why do we bother complaining about these games any more? I honestly think that the more we complain the worse it becomes. So the new generation of MMO players are pretty much just button smashers. I guess it makes sence. I mean hell Not like most can even hold intrest unless it has pretty flashing lights. I say this with no doupt in my mind. We can bitch and complain all we want but all thats goin to come of it is mindless posts insulting each other. Mabey if 10 or 15 of you got togather in real life, Sat down and started writeing a new MMO we might be geting some were.
Hell thats what i am doing. My friends kept bitching about how dumbed down MMO's are so i sat down and started writeing. Who knows mabey my game will be published in the future. An if it dos i Assure you that the game i make will be for the more goal orinted player. With very little button smashing as possiable. But hell i love reading these it make me have an idea what real gamers want.
CENTER]
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]
Greetings..well all i can say is one word...Vanguard,yes that game that had a bad release over two years ago is not the same buggy mess it was then. I could go into a rant about what makes it the best PVE mmorpg out there at the moment and if people gave the PVP ffa gold coin loot server a chance you could have some great PVP as well.
It's vast and i mean vast world which makes DarkFall look small and it has to end graphics and some great classes plus real time hoiusing villages and ship building plus diplomacy and the best crafting system to date,that includes SWG,i have played both.
Vanguard is what EQ2 should of been with corpse runs and xp loss plus no instanced dungeons at all.
Try the trail,you have nothing to lose and come back and tell me i am not wrong. All the people who love a great open ended mmorpg where you can level up diplomacy or crafting without killing a single mob or you can be an adventurere or all 3. Guild castles and vast amount of content that you will never see unless you start in all of the 16 starting areas.
People who believe the hype about VG without actually trying the game themselves are missing a magical mmorpg akin to EQ1 days.
The list goes on.. no credit card needed.. you wont be sorry...
vanguard.station.sony.com/isleofdawn/
Jah Rasta For I.
The Wicked Shall Fall..
http://www.ethnic2020.com/images/Ebay/black-jesus.jpg
Oh, no. No you didn't just say that.
I'll admit I often speak without thinking, and often have to eat my own words, but that, Sir, is bullshit.
"Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year."
Bullshit. Flat out bullshit and I will hold that position. Anyone who has been following MMO's for any length of time will back that up. At best you just said "Checkers is a more advanced game of Chess". Why? Because there are less pieces to keep track of? Because You might get Kinged instead of trading a hard-fought Pawn for a Queen?
Bullshit. Seriously. "Death penalties are a time sink". No They're there to remind you you effed-up. That the second "M" in MMO is for "Multiplayer". That you just let other people, other human beings trying to enjoy this game, down. Even if you don't care about Carmen in Philadelphia, you need to know you failed. It's a minor penalty for the most part. Don't come here and say it's some "Outmoded Time Sink."
This is just another example of the "Everyone's a Winner Nobody Can Fail Participant Ribbon" bullcrap that we're stuck with today. Anything worth having is worth earning. Games, Sports, or Careers, it's not worth it if it's just handed over.
I tend to agree more with Adrammelech because I play to have fun, not restart after I die. But this is just me, some people like more of a challenge to have fun, I dont. It's more or less personal prefrence.
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
Oh, no. No you didn't just say that.
I'll admit I often speak without thinking, and often have to eat my own words, but that, Sir, is bullshit.
"Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year."
Bullshit. Flat out bullshit and I will hold that position. Anyone who has been following MMO's for any length of time will back that up. At best you just said "Checkers is a more advanced game of Chess". Why? Because there are less pieces to keep track of? Because You might get Kinged instead of trading a hard-fought Pawn for a Queen?
Bullshit. Seriously. "Death penalties are a time sink". No They're there to remind you you effed-up. That the second "M" in MMO is for "Multiplayer". That you just let other people, other human beings trying to enjoy this game, down. Even if you don't care about Carmen in Philadelphia, you need to know you failed. It's a minor penalty for the most part. Don't come here and say it's some "Outmoded Time Sink."
This is just another example of the "Everyone's a Winner Nobody Can Fail Participant Ribbon" bullcrap that we're stuck with today. Anything worth having is worth earning. Games, Sports, or Careers, it's not worth it if it's just handed over.
I back your official position of "Bullshit". You are correct.
I call bullshit on both of you. Adrammelech is perfectly correct. Just because you don't like his analysis, doesn't make it any less true. You are old school, your thought processes are old school and your desire to implement game mechanics that punish rather than entertain is frighteningly sick. Thank God most people are not masochists and are not willing to put up with those old, outdated and primarily bullshit mechanics from the glory days of EQ.
You are no longer the target audience, deal with it or get the hell out of the genre.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Oh, no. No you didn't just say that.
I'll admit I often speak without thinking, and often have to eat my own words, but that, Sir, is bullshit.
"Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year."
Bullshit. Flat out bullshit and I will hold that position. Anyone who has been following MMO's for any length of time will back that up. At best you just said "Checkers is a more advanced game of Chess". Why? Because there are less pieces to keep track of? Because You might get Kinged instead of trading a hard-fought Pawn for a Queen?
Bullshit. Seriously. "Death penalties are a time sink". No They're there to remind you you effed-up. That the second "M" in MMO is for "Multiplayer". That you just let other people, other human beings trying to enjoy this game, down. Even if you don't care about Carmen in Philadelphia, you need to know you failed. It's a minor penalty for the most part. Don't come here and say it's some "Outmoded Time Sink."
This is just another example of the "Everyone's a Winner Nobody Can Fail Participant Ribbon" bullcrap that we're stuck with today. Anything worth having is worth earning. Games, Sports, or Careers, it's not worth it if it's just handed over.
I back your official position of "Bullshit". You are correct.
I call bullshit on both of you. Adrammelech is perfectly correct. Just because you don't like his analysis, doesn't make it any less true. You are old school, your thought processes are old school and your desire to implement game mechanics that punish rather than entertain is frighteningly sick. Thank God most people are not masochists and are not willing to put up with those old, outdated and primarily bullshit mechanics from the glory days of EQ.
You are no longer the target audience, deal with it or get the hell out of the genre.
=FAIL
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I think alot of people are missing the point with Warhammer.....IMO it shouldnt have any quests outside of RVR and scenarios....By having the regular quests in the game people start to assume that it is a PVE game when it is not.......The point of the game is RVR PVP not PVE......THe PVP is 1000x better than WoW......
Oh, no. No you didn't just say that.
I'll admit I often speak without thinking, and often have to eat my own words, but that, Sir, is bullshit.
"Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year."
Bullshit. Flat out bullshit and I will hold that position. Anyone who has been following MMO's for any length of time will back that up. At best you just said "Checkers is a more advanced game of Chess". Why? Because there are less pieces to keep track of? Because You might get Kinged instead of trading a hard-fought Pawn for a Queen?
Bullshit. Seriously. "Death penalties are a time sink". No They're there to remind you you effed-up. That the second "M" in MMO is for "Multiplayer". That you just let other people, other human beings trying to enjoy this game, down. Even if you don't care about Carmen in Philadelphia, you need to know you failed. It's a minor penalty for the most part. Don't come here and say it's some "Outmoded Time Sink."
This is just another example of the "Everyone's a Winner Nobody Can Fail Participant Ribbon" bullcrap that we're stuck with today. Anything worth having is worth earning. Games, Sports, or Careers, it's not worth it if it's just handed over.
I back your official position of "Bullshit". You are correct.
I call bullshit on both of you. Adrammelech is perfectly correct. Just because you don't like his analysis, doesn't make it any less true. You are old school, your thought processes are old school and your desire to implement game mechanics that punish rather than entertain is frighteningly sick. Thank God most people are not masochists and are not willing to put up with those old, outdated and primarily bullshit mechanics from the glory days of EQ.
You are no longer the target audience, deal with it or get the hell out of the genre.
=FAIL
No you fail.
You guys can't follow the industry anymore: more skills, better programming and far - less meaningless time sinks.
wow....FAIL and won't go down without common sense....
I have played more games than you or your family combined.....and I think you are wrong.
calling some one "Old School" is nothing less than a compliment. Games have evolved....but not because us "Old Schoolers" had no say. We are the ones who have driven games....and the direction....so show respect
We know what is good....cause we have pointed the direction....newb
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Oh, no. No you didn't just say that.
I'll admit I often speak without thinking, and often have to eat my own words, but that, Sir, is bullshit.
"Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year."
Bullshit. Flat out bullshit and I will hold that position. Anyone who has been following MMO's for any length of time will back that up. At best you just said "Checkers is a more advanced game of Chess". Why? Because there are less pieces to keep track of? Because You might get Kinged instead of trading a hard-fought Pawn for a Queen?
Bullshit. Seriously. "Death penalties are a time sink". No They're there to remind you you effed-up. That the second "M" in MMO is for "Multiplayer". That you just let other people, other human beings trying to enjoy this game, down. Even if you don't care about Carmen in Philadelphia, you need to know you failed. It's a minor penalty for the most part. Don't come here and say it's some "Outmoded Time Sink."
This is just another example of the "Everyone's a Winner Nobody Can Fail Participant Ribbon" bullcrap that we're stuck with today. Anything worth having is worth earning. Games, Sports, or Careers, it's not worth it if it's just handed over.
I back your official position of "Bullshit". You are correct.
If I look at the intelligent boss fights in TBC and WotLK and I compare them with the tank/spank fights and zillion of uselss mobs of MMO's back in the "good old times", I know the word "bullshit" is out of place.
I wasn't referring to scritped fights, so I don't really care about this point. Sure, I'll give it to you, raid fights are better now, but I never really cared about raid fights anyway.
No serious raid guild in Wow wants even to raid without deadly boss and about a million other add-ons these days....
Is that an indication of a rise in WoW difficulty, or a rise in player laziness? Most people complain that WoW is too easy now, yet people use all of these add-ons to make it easier.
-----
0f course present day games are FAR more better programmed
Possibly true. Programming quality varies between games and studios, which is evident when comparing a game like WoW to a game like AoC.
than the older crap in which time sinks, bad programming and massive time sink attunements were considered "meaningful".
Doesn't have much to do with programming, more game design. Some time sinks are simply annoying, some are necessary. I would consider WoW's leveling a completely pointless and annoying time sink, while I consider Eve's death penalty a necessary one.
At least now someone with a WotLK red dragon is downing raid bosses on technical and group skills and NOT on time sinks.
Perhaps, but Blizzard has turned downing the raid bosses into the timesink itself. People must down those bosses over and over again until the group running the raid has enough collective gear to move onto the next raid/timesink.
It is a complete different mentality of course.
Slowly gaining ground with those playing them and seeing the far better challenges.
Only the super egos of so called old grognards don't see this.
But that's why they don't evolve and are becoming very old complaining dudes.
The industry is moving along and you guys with the super egos don't even follow.
If you simply want to talk about raids, sure, games may be more complex today. I personally don't care for raiding much. You want to talk about nearly anything beyond raids, games are degressing violently. From crafting, to social tools, player interaction, character building, risk vs. reward, you name it, it has been dumbed down in recent years.
Just compare SWG crafting to WoWs, or compare Guild War's Skill system to any random generic "Talent points" system, or Eve's political and social interactions to any other game out there, things are getting simpler and simpler. Can't be denied.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I would completely disagree with this. I think WoW's PvP, unbalanced as it may be, is far better than WAR's. WAR's PvP is far too clunky and detached for my tastes, where as WoW's PvP is fairly fluid, and can be pretty intense at times.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I feel both of your pains To begin with i started out playing D&D back in the begining then when computers came out it was the MUD games on a 900 baud connection :P,then for awhile there until Meridian59,UO,EQ changed the whole genure we played either single player games and or sports and Sims,from Sid Meier.
Now we are all spoiled with fast connections and 3D graphics.
Anyhow on about Warhammer Online the original creaters and Wizards of the Coast had a good thing going untill the the team makeing ran short on cash and sold it to Mythic ho revamped the whole game from the original and messed it up.
Well earlier in Teir 2 on Pheonix Throne we had AT LEAST a 2 hour massive war with like 3 WBs on 2-3 WBs in the empire vs chaos area. It was some tough shit keeping the destro out of our keeps. I wouldn't call it carebear or watered down.
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
I agree with your post except for the portion I highlighted in red.
Grinding is never going to be booted out of MMORPG design. Grinding IS the game. With the possible exception of Guild Wars and its free-to-play ilk, every single game in this genre exists for one reason: to get you to subscribe month after month and provide a source of recurring revenue for the developers/publishers.
WoW is a grind, WAR is a grind, EVE is a grind, LotRo is a grind, they are all designed to dangle carrots, which people happily chase for want of anything better to do.
Game design may be evolving in terms of becoming friendlier to a wider audience, but grind is certainly not being eliminated. It is the reason for the game's existence and the fundamental design decision upon which all others are based.
I'll agree with you about polish. I wish every MMO had the polish that WoW has, no question about it.
Gameplay mechanics, that is entirely objectional, and I disagree with you. WoW was made simple on purpose. They wanted it to be accessible to the masses, and they achieved their goal. You make like WoW's linear, loot based, class/level style, and that is fine. I much prefer a sandbox, player driven economy, with an open skill based system any day. Thats fine too.
I think that saying WoW's class system is an evolution over previously encarnated skill systems is false.
Oh, and stop citing programming, as it's influence is negligable. C++ was first available in 1985, so these MMOs are pretty much all made with the same language(except WURM is Java, and I heard SWG may have been Java too but I don't know if that is true or not). Programming has nothing to do with this discussion. Programming is just a tool, we are talking about game design.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
For sake of thread you should elaborate. In what ways is it superior?
I did like how WAR included realtime collision. Howevr, I dont like games that have different factions. I think pvpers should access to same Classes for self balancing pvp
I like how the self proclaimed "hard core" players are coming down on him like they're some sort of priviledged gods among men. Hardcorez vs Casualz, serious business!
That being said, yeah, WAR is pretty shite.
Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.
EAT ME MMORPG.com!
Whatever show me a post where someone acted like 'god'. The guy acts like he cant find a good game that has hardcore penalties. If he can't, he's just not looking. Or he is looking at the wrong place (WAR)....
No one is a self proclaimed 'hardcore' player that's bullshit. People like myself simply prefer a game with more depth then kid's MMOs (aka WoW)
Erm good luck.. warhammer fails and so does everything else on the market right now.
SArbocarbras wrote- "Inbetween but currently playing WoW very very casually along with waiting for some other games.. that don't bore me to death."
Such an ironic post written by a WoW player. Looks like there is an MMO that hasn't failed you quite obviously.
How can you suggest that corpse runs/xp penalties are nothing but a time sink?
Take lineage 2. Dieing means losing your CRUCIAL buffs, spawning with half your effective hp, and being across the world. On top of the run back and the xp loss.
That's not a time sink, that's a death penalty.
They should have made a DAoC 2 instead of Warhammer Online
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
It all comes back to risk vs. reward. Some people enjoy the thrill of knowing that if they fuck up and die they will have to pay for it. It's the thrill of the whole thing, it raises the stakes, makes what you accomplish feel more meaningful. It's a personal preference and can't simply be boiled down to "old school/new school". It's not factual, it's truely subjective.
Whoever said the genre is changing and people are being left behind after you're rhetoric you spewed (a bunch of blah blah blah opinions that you tried to peddle as facts). Well, this may be the only thing you're right about... But it still doesn't prove that "old school" is worse than "new school" which is what you are indeed implying.
I think we can all agree WoW appealed to a bigger audience than the "old school" MMOs, however, there's no way to say it's "revolutionized" MMOs in the sense that it's improved upon everything (because that's completely subjective) It's only "revolutionized" the genre in the sense that it now appeals to more people (call those people what you want...casual, not "hardcore",etc whatever)
So essentially the argument we have here is a matter of opinion and we're acting as if it can be proven factual which is completely pointless.
I've probably said enough but let me leave you with an example. The music we hear has changed drastically (as in what is played on the mainstream radio). However, how can you argue that rock music from the 50's and 60's is any better or worse than what we have now? Seriously, think before you generalize. Thank you