god some of these posts are depressing, what happened to wanting a challenge? thats why i buy games for the challange not the story or character developement, i'll watch a movie or read a book if i want that.
most of you all sound like my sister in law who buys a game and the day she gets the game she looks for a cheat code to give her infinite health or whatever and then brags to me how she beat the game. I mean is that was we really want? i guess so since WoW has 11 million subscribers, people must want the dumb down games for idiots.
Did you play WoW? If you did, did you use Deadly Boss mods, Auctioneer, Questhelper, Decursive, or any mods?
I played WoW for about 2 weeks on a buddies account, thats about as much i could stomach of it if i played it anymore i would have had to gouge my eyes out with a spoon to get some excitement out of the game.
and no I don't use mods ... mods are for pussies, hell i don't even like having a built in map ... would rather learn the area than some "YOU ARE HERE" amusement park map for the half wits.
There are many other games to play, just shut it down and continue your search : )
Everyone knows WAR was trying to be wow, and everyone knows that you can't out-wow WoW (yet, people said the same about eq until wow out-eq'd it)
:P
LMAO WAR trying to be wow?? that's hilarious.. it's the opposite if anything... WAR actually has GOOD pvp.. it IS a pvp-centric game..unlike wow that has its pvp tacked on.
It does? maybe you and I played a different version of WAR. WARs PVP is nothing but a giant zerg fest full of 1 button facerollers. Largest numbers = win just run up to the other zerg and spam whatever aoes you have!!. theres no tactics, no strategy in WAR just bring more friends and more FOTM class than the other guy and you win!.
god some of these posts are depressing, what happened to wanting a challenge? thats why i buy games for the challange not the story or character developement, i'll watch a movie or read a book if i want that.
most of you all sound like my sister in law who buys a game and the day she gets the game she looks for a cheat code to give her infinite health or whatever and then brags to me how she beat the game. I mean is that was we really want? i guess so since WoW has 11 million subscribers, people must want the dumb down games for idiots.
Did you play WoW? If you did, did you use Deadly Boss mods, Auctioneer, Questhelper, Decursive, or any mods?
I played WoW for about 2 weeks on a buddies account, thats about as much i could stomach of it if i played it anymore i would have had to gouge my eyes out with a spoon to get some excitement out of the game.
and no I don't use mods ... mods are for pussies, hell i don't even like having a built in map ... would rather learn the area than some "YOU ARE HERE" amusement park map for the half wits.
you might have found the game a little more tolerable if you would have used Questhelper or Carbinate. At least you can get through those awful quests a lot faster
One quest was almost cool. In that Outlands area in this cave full of hippographs or whatever you have to rescue a Blood elf. This was kinda cool, I escouted her back to village
But it all fell down to shite when I go back to cave and her see her captured again. Got dammit Blizz why cant you at least 'phase' out crap like this or something? Quests seem so lazy too me. I wouldnt mind them so if I really made an impact.
If I could have rescued this blood elf for real I woulda subbed past a month
LUCKY you-- you didnt waste money for WotLK expansion + $15 sub like I did. I made it only 2 weeks too. MAgic number lol. I swear it was bout 2 weeks
WoW is a different type of game than the other fodder out there. The game really doesn't begin until you are 80 and start raiding. That is where WoW shines and where the real challenge is, not in the ez mode leveling. Although the quest lines, scripts and story are at least interesting if you take the time to read them. I would prefer the old school approach to leveling myself as well, where most of the content needed at least 4 people to accomplish.
Now since the expansion came out recently, the raiding has not gotten extremely difficult yet, and there is not much there, but it will get more difficult, there is a new dungeon coming out next patch, and they will keep releasing new dungeons as people progress. Look back at Burning Crusade, anyone who has went to Black Temple and Sunwell when they were first released will tell you that WoW is NOT an easy game.
I wish they had just kept the level cap at 60 or boosted up the levels and rewards of all the old raids, it seems like so much raid content is wasted in WoW. Instead of the 4 heroic level 80 raids people can do right now, they could have maybe 50 or more. Maybe that is in the future, upgrading all the old content to be relevent to the levels people are at and gear people are trying to obtain.
I do not and never will understand these threads. Why bash games you do not like? If you do not like it do not play it. If you like it play it, keep your bashing to yourself and your friends who want or at least tolerate hearing it. Ive played both of these games they both are good at what they do, but they are different. But seriously, email your friends do not post on mmorpg.com.
There are many other games to play, just shut it down and continue your search : )
Everyone knows WAR was trying to be wow, and everyone knows that you can't out-wow WoW (yet, people said the same about eq until wow out-eq'd it)
:P
LMAO WAR trying to be wow?? that's hilarious.. it's the opposite if anything... WAR actually has GOOD pvp.. it IS a pvp-centric game..unlike wow that has its pvp tacked on.
It does? maybe you and I played a different version of WAR. WARs PVP is nothing but a giant zerg fest full of 1 button facerollers. Largest numbers = win just run up to the other zerg and spam whatever aoes you have!!. theres no tactics, no strategy in WAR just bring more friends and more FOTM class than the other guy and you win!.
Show me one data analysis of War PvP.
You can't. No results, no data, no data on class balance. "Group balance".
Which group? 3, 6, 10, 15, 20? which reference , which settings?
Arena results data, Arena fighting data, PvP video analyses from official PvP tournaments ?
The only thing you see as a player of War is ... the lag in spell castings and unresponsive GCD's between action fases.
And the knocking on a ... door to enter a fortress.
Yep PvP it is.
Honestly zorn, why bash a incomplete game?How long did WoW take the get the pvp truly going? What was WoWs way of class balance? RIng around the nerf bat? What is WoW pvp to you? Its garbage and its always going to be garbage. You honestly think that pvp in wow takes skill? I watched the some arena finals tournament (of course koreans) and the most epic battle between 2 mages was one t hat didnt know how to play is class and the other that pressed his 95 million buttons at the right time. PVP isnt a one man army, its trully utalized with open realm war. Numbers mean little if you know how to play. Have fun with your lol 1v1 2v2 and 3v3 arenas. Instead of opening your fat WoW fanboi mouth, why dont you give WAR as long as it took wow to fix pvp to the extense of WoWs(which still fails!).
Originally posted by PatchDay I am going to expand on Abrahmm's post for folks like popinjay. Not trying to single any1 out but just explain why WoW is a regression.
Thanks for not singling me out.
Especially when I have no interest whatsoever in this whole "oldergame/newgame" debate. I prefer to stay on course, talk about WAR and WoW as the post title suggests, and not deviate, but if you choose to that's your choice. I'm flattered you picked me out instead of those actually debating it, but sorry, I could care less. As a player I just want a good game. If it's progress, so be it. If its retro, then that's fine with me. Probably need to direct your post to the more vocal folks arguing this point along generational lines.
My one point is in regards to people who claim WoW is easy. That's it. I am not here to hold up the older gen vs the newer gen. One thing I find absolutely hilarious is when people claim that WoW is a regression and easy. But every single one of these people saying that are using game aides from outside thrid-party sources. Patch, I know you tried WoW, you wouldn't be much of a gamer to play MMOs for this many years and not try it while giving a critique on it.
Did you raid in WoW? Did you use mods? If you did, then I cannot see how someone could argue the game is less complex and easy while doing this. It's like someone playing baseball today and saying homeruns are easy to hit, why didn't they do it back in the 40s? Well, better balls, better bats, stronger players, more knowledge, professional hitters, and no second or real "day" jobs other than baseball. Take away mods and see just how easy Wow is too play, I dare you.
I doubt fully 3/4 of the people could even clear trash leading inside the dungeons, based on the tiny amount of folks that actually reach endgame in WoW with with mod help NOW (don't believe for a second the vast majority of gamers playing WoW beat Naxx). But yet because of autopiloting help, the game is supposedly easy. I'm not sure if you had tons of mods and aides helping you out while playing UO, did you? If you didn't, perhaps that could add to your image of its "difficulty" over WoW. If you did have mods to tell you when to run from the bosses, cast, hide, whatever... did you use them?
It's the just stupidest thing someone can utter, not saying this is your position. Again I am not here to merit the virtues of UO against something else. I didn't play UO, it didnt' look good to me back then. And I definitely didn't play Meridan 59, so I'm not so nostalgic over that either.
I played WoW for about 2 weeks on a buddies account, thats about as much i could stomach of it if i played it anymore i would have had to gouge my eyes out with a spoon to get some excitement out of the game. and no I don't use mods ... mods are for pussies, hell i don't even like having a built in map ... would rather learn the area than some "YOU ARE HERE" amusement park map for the half wits.
Originally posted by PatchDay
Right at the start I was hating life. I got hurled along through the story quest after quest.
I played WoW for about 6 months I think it was.
In that time I leveled a Protwar, Rogue and Shadow Priest to 70. I had maxed Engineering, Alchemy and Weaponsmithing. I had fishing almost maxed, cooking, harvesting skills all maxed. I saw all areas of the game that I was able to do without being in a 'hardcore' raiding guild. (I hate signing up for guild webpages, so I usually pass)
There were some older areas I would have liked to experience just for the fun factor, but most people didn't want to do them because the loot wasn't good. But overall I must say I did have fun in WoW. I did not and am not buying the WOTLK. I will not be going back to WoW because usually when I am done with a game, I know it deep down. But I do not feel slighted by my time playing.
I came from three years of FFXI where no one used mods at all, through the whole game. That was at launch. When I went to WoW, every guild made it mandatory you use them. Using them made the game much, much easier and progressing was fast. If I did not have those mods, I would probably still be playing. But lack of guilds that don't use them rules that out, so I did. If I had my choice, I wouldn't use any as games last longer without them. The people you play with have to be much smarter and better players holding aggro and not stealing hate. I did not like that in WoW that in order to get to the endgame, these things were mandatory.
You two on the other hand... I think you have a problem that goes much deeper than just a hate for WoW it seems. You both share the gift of hyperbole, that's for sure; or one can only hope that's what it is.
Games in general are increasing in complexity and player-demand exponentially with each generation and passing year. This is clearly demonstrated by books like "Everything Bad Is Good For You" and "Smartbomb". The MMORPG genre is not an exception to this rule. Simply, the problem is misguided nostalgia for older (simpler) times clouding judgement. Something like a "death penalty" is a good example. Death penalties are old hang-overs from simplistic early game design that placed arbitrary, time-consuming punishments on death to artificially extend the life of a game. A well designed modern game has no need for such a thing. The "penalty" for dying is dying, meaning - you lost. Get up and try again. There's no reason to waste time by making me do 50 jumping jacks before I can play again. It's the equivlent of "Insert Another Coin to Continue". Modern games are being streamlined, meaning old, unecessary features and outdated design concepts are being removed. It's easy to confuse this as "dumbing down". There's no reason to continue with oldschool pseudo-difficulty by forcing the player to wander around with no map, making them repetitiously click every NPC to see if they have a quest to offer or making them hit auto-run and wait 10 minutes to reach a corpse because these are old ideas in regards to adding "depth" to a game which are being slowly booted out of game design along with grinding and other antiquated concepts In short, I don't think that you're going to see many new games like the OP desires anymore, because they've already been done; and games, like all forms of entertainment, are evolving. There's nothing stopping you from continuing to play games with the old designs you enjoy and there will always be a niche for oldschool games to exist in. I enjoy them plenty myself. I just recognize that my enjoyment is primarily from nostalgia and not some misguided concept of Old Guard elitism.
I dont agree with harsh death penalties either but WAR and plenty of other MMO's out there have zero death penalty and you get lazy because dying doesnt mean anything. At least in EVE you really get mad when you die.
Personally I think a unique system that has not been used yet would be to have a chance of traits that are inflicted on to your character. e.g. spiders kill you a few times and there is a chance you will receive a negative trait against spiders or reduction in poison resistence. The only game I know that has this is fallout tactics. Its not perma death but it develops your character and creates an RPG feel. Imagine getting an ugly scar if you die too many times?
I love your maps... But is it not abit unfair to compare a Vanilla server in WAR with a PvP in WoW . You seem to like to do maps, do please show me the open world PvP on a Core server in WoW.
Or perhaps that does not fit with your propaganda machine.. i do not know. If so i have a few nice bridges to sell...
Well, I simply photoshopped them to point out to the WAR players why I felt Mythic had made a mistake making 90% of their zones all PvE oriented considering the game was build for PvP, or RvR should I say.
Coloring in the Red areas for RvR hotspots and the blues for well PvE...=/
As for the map of a Core server in vanilla WoW? Well, I did actually make one at the time so here it is. And within a PvP server since in a PvE server you have to flag yourself in contestant zones (same areas red in the map) to engage in PvP.
And once again as you can see, WoW did a way better job catering to any possible RvR in-game compared to WAR...=/
Arena data sampling of 3vs3 and 5vs5 serve as a constant developpers tool to tune the interaction between classes in a fixed setting. You have the "results" data and the "developpers" data taken from the extremely useful flow of highly played competitive settings. So as the tournaments are even being played with FREE equal to choose gear, only skill awards the best players. As Blizzard showed, ... the same players coming on top of these (analysed) competition fights also come on top in game. I don't need no further proof as I can witness it every day in watching one of the better players on my server battling it out in very attractive arena fights. And seeing todays stats you already see the change over 2 months time, just tx to the arena data.
So why are the classes still so grossly imbalanced after all this data and testing? Why are there FoTM classes after every patch? Why do they even have test servers if they have to emergency repatch some idiotic mistake they completely missed? You seem like an intelligent person and I agree with alot of what you say, but making the WoW arena out to be some huge success in pvp design or balance, makes me wonder.
You have to queue up for an arena match. How is that PvP? What do you win? More items. Thrilling.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
You can't. No results, no data, no data on class balance. "Group balance". Which group? 3, 6, 10, 15, 20? which reference , which settings? Arena results data, Arena fighting data, PvP video analyses from official PvP tournaments ? The only thing you see as a player of War is ... the lag in spell castings and unresponsive GCD's between action fases. And the knocking on a ... door to enter a fortress. Yep PvP it is.
Honestly zorn, why bash a incomplete game?How long did WoW take the get the pvp truly going? What was WoWs way of class balance? RIng around the nerf bat? What is WoW pvp to you? Its garbage and its always going to be garbage. You honestly think that pvp in wow takes skill? I watched the some arena finals tournament (of course koreans) and the most epic battle between 2 mages was one t hat didnt know how to play is class and the other that pressed his 95 million buttons at the right time. PVP isnt a one man army, its trully utalized with open realm war. Numbers mean little if you know how to play. Have fun with your lol 1v1 2v2 and 3v3 arenas. Instead of opening your fat WoW fanboi mouth, why dont you give WAR as long as it took wow to fix pvp to the extense of WoWs(which still fails!).
The problem is that you apparently don't know anything about Wow's PvP mechanics and fluid responsive controls.
Arena data sampling of 3vs3 and 5vs5 serve as a constant developpers tool to tune the interaction between classes in a fixed setting. You have the "results" data and the "developpers" data taken from the extremely useful flow of highly played competitive settings.
So as the tournaments are even being played with FREE equal to choose gear, only skill awards the best players. As Blizzard showed, ... the same players coming on top of these (analysed) competition fights also come on top in game.
I don't need no further proof as I can witness it every day in watching one of the better players on my server battling it out in very attractive arena fights. And seeing todays stats you already see the change over 2 months time, just tx to the arena data.
-----
The War engine is seriously lacking in all aspects. From serious GCD hic-ups to slow and unresponsive controls and spell castings. That engine won't change no matter what.
They said they would fix it 6 months before Beta, in Beta, after launch, at christmas and in the next patch. The bottom line is : it didn't change at all.
You swing I swing You swing I swing for minutes is not the kind of PvP people want to play as PvP. Unless you are indeed playing an un-pvp game and vending it as PvP.
Throwing four letter words at the unmatched responsive controls of Wow fights is silly as everyone who ever controlled his Wow avatar can testify.
The only problem the first 3 months after each 10 level increase expansion is already long gone in WotLK, so lame excuses of burst damage are already long solved in the last 2 months.
And the arena data are an assurance every class gets the necessary attention and polish in Wow. The data are a constant reminder of this. You don't have ANY data in War.
Mythic is just not up to Blizzard quality we are used to, no matter how many 4 letter words you try to include.
It is as simple as that.
As much as I hate to admit it tanner, I do think you make a several great points about WoW but you clearly regard blizzard as god and WoW as the bible. I too once enjoyed the interesting battles in alterac valley whilst grinding towards my high warlords. Shortly after BC if found that WoW started its plummet as far as dumbing the game down to suit a wider fan base(as far as PVE goes). I tried arena out but being a previous DAOC fan and loving the idea of the widescale somewhat immersive pvp experience as a veteran Lineage II player I found that BGs werent working for me and arena was too......Guild wars-ish. I feel that in arena theres a lot of pressure on other teammates and it just feels like the guild vs guild battles in guild wars where you have a strat and you deviate somewhat from the strat and improvise based on what your going against and where the the battle is going. I honestly rather play a RTS for the same feeling, and count on my micro skills rather than have other ppl drag me down. WoW just felt like your mashing all your buttons in a strict order and getting nothing out of it. From what your saying they have gone a long way as far as class tweaks and it seems that its more balanced yes? You almost make me want to go back and try it again(no joke) but for someone not so arena attentive aside from getting the gear, what is your take on wintergrasp?
All in all I do agree with your beliefs on WoW, but it still took 2+ years for pvp to even work. You say there are unfixable things in WAR, yet they proved us wrong time and time again make several HUGE changes to how the game works. From what your comments are it seems you havent played the game for a few months and extensive changes to the GDC and responsiveness to abilities has been changed a lot. The game is still growing and one major thing is you dont seem to understand how much as far as devs and overall amount of ppl blizzard and mythic has to work with(and still mythic is amazing for what they accomplished with so few). To each gamer is to each his game, clearly you dont seem to understand the difference in RvR and controlled variables in a set match of x vs x players. WAR simply draws a different crowd as far as pvp goes. I prefer uncontrolled variables and a "anything can happen" atmosphere to a simple and possible repetetive arena match. Then you gain what is real pvp (to me) with immersive skirmishes with tank lines, mage lines and melee skirmishes where you and several hundred ppl engage in epic fights for ground.Anything can happen and its up to how well you work as a force rather than pressing the right buttons as a 1 2 3 or 5 man army. I feel that is real pvp to me. Regardless thats why i want to you to post how wintergrasp is as far as army vs army clashes and if it meets this sort of idea.
WAR simply draws a different crowd as far as pvp goes. I prefer uncontrolled variables and a "anything can happen" atmosphere to a simple and possible repetetive arena match. Then you gain what is real pvp (to me) with immersive skirmishes with tank lines, mage lines and melee skirmishes where you and several hundred ppl engage in epic fights for ground.Anything can happen and its up to how well you work as a force rather than pressing the right buttons as a 1 2 3 or 5 man army. I feel that is real pvp to me. Regardless thats why i want to you to post how wintergrasp is as far as army vs army clashes and if it meets this sort of idea.
Where does this occur? Never saw that ONCE playing WAR for around 4 months. I understand thats your vision or idea of what WAR is supposed to be like, but thats not how the game is actually played. I read time and time again about large scale tactics that never ever happened. There are no such thing as tank lines unless you mention HORRID, HORRID throne room standoffs and if you want to call that a GOOD thing, you're nutty=) I wouldn't call stacking a bunch of tanks on the top of the stairs while healers spammed them intelligent strategy. It was the ONLY strategy and it was boring. Otherwise, It was just zerg vs zerg. Once one decided to push, it was a domino effect. There was no reason at all to fight in the open field anyway. No benefit. Bigger numbers won every night. Tactics be damned. 100s of players communicating? Oh please. The only communication was the rare occurence of multiple WBs meeting at the appropriate keep. After that, it was just a steam roller.
The only tactics I witnesssed were in the scenarios, BECAUSE it was a controlled environment. RvR skirmishes? Where the hell was that happening? The closest thing were picking off the few dummies that didn't stick too close to the zerg on their way to keeps=) Poor guys.
Compared to leveling up on a PvP server in WOW for example, I was in small skirmishes constantly. It was just part of the game. Since WOW"s PvP and PvE areas were the same, almost every zome was a fight. You never had to look for a fight. You were leveling up with the enemy constantly so it just happened naturally. You either fought or ran away. Maybe if the zones in WAR weren't all cut up into pieces, I would've had the same experience which I was expecting. I was expecting a better experience actually, since WAR was supposed to be about WAR. WOW's layout supported constant skirmishes making the fighting seam purposefull for survival. WAR's tunnel you into specific areas and it felt fake and contrived. Thats why I didn't last all that long.
Now all of you know this but I'll say it anyway.The Warhammer universe existed long before the Warcraft universe did. And yes WoW was fun while there were smart people playing it, but look where it's going now- down the drain. They've made the game so retard-proof that they are losing their more experienced players. Plus now that I've played both games, I realize that WAR isn't a WoW imitator, its the other way around. So much of the content of WoW is parallel to WAR that it is hard to distinguish. Try and find an intelligent group of people to share your experience with...
Oh someone had to pull this one out their ass. Dude, only you care that warhammer was written before warcraft. We're talking mmo's here. The only thing that matters is wow was first and warcraft franchise had already taken the cake years and years ago. Yeah most of us including you may have been smart when we started wow. Now look at you. We enjoyed it so much that now we're on the lifelong quest trying to find another great mmo when even blizzard won't be able to satisfy us in the same way again. But to enjoy war and actually defend it the way you do takes another level of delusion.
WAR simply draws a different crowd as far as pvp goes. I prefer uncontrolled variables and a "anything can happen" atmosphere to a simple and possible repetetive arena match. Then you gain what is real pvp (to me) with immersive skirmishes with tank lines, mage lines and melee skirmishes where you and several hundred ppl engage in epic fights for ground.Anything can happen and its up to how well you work as a force rather than pressing the right buttons as a 1 2 3 or 5 man army. I feel that is real pvp to me. Regardless thats why i want to you to post how wintergrasp is as far as army vs army clashes and if it meets this sort of idea.
Where does this occur? Never saw that ONCE playing WAR for around 4 months. I understand thats your vision or idea of what WAR is supposed to be like, but thats not how the game is actually played. I read time and time again about large scale tactics that never ever happened. There are no such thing as tank lines unless you mention HORRID, HORRID throne room standoffs and if you want to call that a GOOD thing, you're nutty=) I wouldn't call stacking a bunch of tanks on the top of the stairs while healers spammed them intelligent strategy. It was the ONLY strategy and it was boring. Otherwise, It was just zerg vs zerg. Once one decided to push, it was a domino effect. There was no reason at all to fight in the open field anyway. No benefit. Bigger numbers won every night. Tactics be damned. 100s of players communicating? Oh please. The only communication was the rare occurence of multiple WBs meeting at the appropriate keep. After that, it was just a steam roller.
The only tactics I witnesssed were in the scenarios, BECAUSE it was a controlled environment. RvR skirmishes? Where the hell was that happening? The closest thing were picking off the few dummies that didn't stick too close to the zerg on their way to keeps=) Poor guys.
Compared to leveling up on a PvP server in WOW for example, I was in small skirmishes constantly. It was just part of the game. Since WOW"s PvP and PvE areas were the same, almost every zome was a fight. You never had to look for a fight. You were leveling up with the enemy constantly so it just happened naturally. You either fought or ran away. Maybe if the zones in WAR weren't all cut up into pieces, I would've had the same experience which I was expecting. I was expecting a better experience actually, since WAR was supposed to be about WAR. WOW's layout supported constant skirmishes making the fighting seam purposefull for survival. WAR's tunnel you into specific areas and it felt fake and contrived. Thats why I didn't last all that long.
That is true. Tank-lining the stairs is one of the key strategies used for Keep battles, however it is an important one. Since Keep capturing is a sport/chore only started in the last few months, it will take some time before any new strategy comes up. I'm not being optimistic here, I'm actually making a comparison to how tactics evolved over the years specifically for Alterac Valley in WoW (an instance which altogether seems dead right now). It went from point-to-point tower capping, summoning your massive ally mob, rushing like a mad zerg, stealth capping, etc.
Inevitably, after playing WAR for a good few months after playing WotLK... then visiting WoW again... Blizzard has an overall immersive gameplay design for all their games. It sucks that not many other developers have accomplished this in every game they put out. Only vendetta I have against Blizzard is how often they'll jack someone else's ideas to improve their own --- blatantly jacking them --- like, copyright infringement-worthy.
yes WoW was fun while there were smart people playing it, but look where it's going now- down the drain. They've made the game so retard-proof that they are losing their more experienced players.
Lol, I'd love to know where they've gone to, because there isn't a game going at the moment that isn't a cookie-cutter "kill 15 of this, bring me 20 of that" grind-fest. Please God, will some company with lots of money, a creative team and some innovation bring something NEW out!
Now all of you know this but I'll say it anyway.The Warhammer universe existed long before the Warcraft universe did. And yes WoW was fun while there were smart people playing it, but look where it's going now- down the drain. They've made the game so retard-proof that they are losing their more experienced players. Plus now that I've played both games, I realize that WAR isn't a WoW imitator, its the other way around. So much of the content of WoW is parallel to WAR that it is hard to distinguish. Try and find an intelligent group of people to share your experience with...
Oh someone had to pull this one out their ass. Dude, only you care that warhammer was written before warcraft. We're talking mmo's here. The only thing that matters is wow was first and warcraft franchise had already taken the cake years and years ago. Yeah most of us including you may have been smart when we started wow. Now look at you. We enjoyed it so much that now we're on the lifelong quest trying to find another great mmo when even blizzard won't be able to satisfy us in the same way again. But to enjoy war and actually defend it the way you do takes another level of delusion.
WOW the MMO came out long before WAR the MMO. WAR owes almost any success it has to WOW's existence. WOW's leveling system, quests and world didn't come from Warhammer. Warhammer is a card game. WOW is a MMO. Class design, balance and everything else that makes a MMO didn't get borrowed or stolen from a freakin card game and certainly not a MMO that didn't even exist when WOW released=)
And speaking of retard proofing...I guess you never played WAR. WAR makes WOW seem difficult. When people talk abuot dumbing a game down, WAR is a prime example from its death penalty, even faster EXP gain, instant travel, quest pointers, linear zone design, even easier ways to earn rewards, ect. You'd have to be blind to call WOW "retard proof" or "going down the drain" while at the same time, defending WAR. Seriously, are you joking?
WAR simply draws a different crowd as far as pvp goes. I prefer uncontrolled variables and a "anything can happen" atmosphere to a simple and possible repetetive arena match. Then you gain what is real pvp (to me) with immersive skirmishes with tank lines, mage lines and melee skirmishes where you and several hundred ppl engage in epic fights for ground.Anything can happen and its up to how well you work as a force rather than pressing the right buttons as a 1 2 3 or 5 man army. I feel that is real pvp to me. Regardless thats why i want to you to post how wintergrasp is as far as army vs army clashes and if it meets this sort of idea.
Where does this occur? Never saw that ONCE playing WAR for around 4 months. I understand thats your vision or idea of what WAR is supposed to be like, but thats not how the game is actually played. I read time and time again about large scale tactics that never ever happened. There are no such thing as tank lines unless you mention HORRID, HORRID throne room standoffs and if you want to call that a GOOD thing, you're nutty=) I wouldn't call stacking a bunch of tanks on the top of the stairs while healers spammed them intelligent strategy. It was the ONLY strategy and it was boring. Otherwise, It was just zerg vs zerg. Once one decided to push, it was a domino effect. There was no reason at all to fight in the open field anyway. No benefit. Bigger numbers won every night. Tactics be damned. 100s of players communicating? Oh please. The only communication was the rare occurence of multiple WBs meeting at the appropriate keep. After that, it was just a steam roller. The only tactics I witnesssed were in the scenarios, BECAUSE it was a controlled environment. RvR skirmishes? Where the hell was that happening? The closest thing were picking off the few dummies that didn't stick too close to the zerg on their way to keeps=) Poor guys. Compared to leveling up on a PvP server in WOW for example, I was in small skirmishes constantly. It was just part of the game. Since WOW"s PvP and PvE areas were the same, almost every zome was a fight. You never had to look for a fight. You were leveling up with the enemy constantly so it just happened naturally. You either fought or ran away. Maybe if the zones in WAR weren't all cut up into pieces, I would've had the same experience which I was expecting. I was expecting a better experience actually, since WAR was supposed to be about WAR. WOW's layout supported constant skirmishes making the fighting seam purposefull for survival. WAR's tunnel you into specific areas and it felt fake and contrived. Thats why I didn't last all that long.
That is true. Tank-lining the stairs is one of the key strategies used for Keep battles, however it is an important one. Since Keep capturing is a sport/chore only started in the last few months, it will take some time before any new strategy comes up. I'm not being optimistic here, I'm actually making a comparison to how tactics evolved over the years specifically for Alterac Valley in WoW (an instance which altogether seems dead right now). It went from point-to-point tower capping, summoning your massive ally mob, rushing like a mad zerg, stealth capping, etc.
Inevitably, after playing WAR for a good few months after playing WotLK... then visiting WoW again... Blizzard has an overall immersive gameplay design for all their games. It sucks that not many other developers have accomplished this in every game they put out. Only vendetta I have against Blizzard is how often they'll jack someone else's ideas to improve their own --- blatantly jacking them --- like, copyright infringement-worthy.
I found the whole "tanks are worth something in WAR" to be slightly dishonest.
Sure, in a keep with a narrow one-way only , upwardly winding hallway, tanks are great. But look at the other places.
--Scenario. There are no real "tank lines" or "mage lines". The whole area can be ran around and outflanked at any time. Tanks don't help much then.
--BO's and open battlefield zones. Again, tanks are useless and if anyone was smart, they ignore any tank they see and simply go for squishies and midrangers. But you see knuckleheads beating on KOTBS and Black Orcs for some stupid reason. Just swarm the healers then casters! There really doesn't need to be a complex strategy in this game when the situation doesn't call for it. To line up like the British Army would and whine when someone doesn't "fight fair" but uses the zerg method is rather stupid.
And the majority of time in WAR, the situation RARELY calls for it. This is why the zerg is so prevalent on plenty of servers. On paper all the different classes, abilities etc all looks good. But in terms of actual transferred gameplay that Mythic provides in terms of layout, the terrain is limiting and only one style of play makes any sense at all.
There is a faulty thinking with WAR fans I liken to someone describing a car as a "highly motorized vehicle equipped with wheels and a combustible, electical or otherwise internally generated power source capable of propelling it in a fashion and able to transport passengers from one vantage point to another"; rather than simply call it a car. It's just pretty unnecessary.
The way this game is set up.. just 'zerg it', baby!
I can't stand the whole "second job" feel of the old games, making it hard to even call them games in the first place.
New games contain just as much of the second job feel if not more. Lets take the king of the block WOW (since everyone follows their design), what options do you have to progress at 80? Mostly raiding, now if your interested in a serious guild, you have to
a) put in an application
b) several interviews
c) work with 24 other people you may or may not like
d) show up for raid at specific dates and times
e) paid on salary no matter how many hours you work
Explain to me, how this doesn't feel like a second job?
No matter what you think, that "feeling" is subjective. It only feels like a job when you arent having fun. Penalties teach players what to avoid, which in turn makes them better players. You dont get better at chess if you never learn from your mistakes, why should MMOs be any different?
WAR simply draws a different crowd as far as pvp goes. I prefer uncontrolled variables and a "anything can happen" atmosphere to a simple and possible repetetive arena match. Then you gain what is real pvp (to me) with immersive skirmishes with tank lines, mage lines and melee skirmishes where you and several hundred ppl engage in epic fights for ground.Anything can happen and its up to how well you work as a force rather than pressing the right buttons as a 1 2 3 or 5 man army. I feel that is real pvp to me. Regardless thats why i want to you to post how wintergrasp is as far as army vs army clashes and if it meets this sort of idea.
Where does this occur? Never saw that ONCE playing WAR for around 4 months. I understand thats your vision or idea of what WAR is supposed to be like, but thats not how the game is actually played. I read time and time again about large scale tactics that never ever happened. There are no such thing as tank lines unless you mention HORRID, HORRID throne room standoffs and if you want to call that a GOOD thing, you're nutty=) I wouldn't call stacking a bunch of tanks on the top of the stairs while healers spammed them intelligent strategy. It was the ONLY strategy and it was boring. Otherwise, It was just zerg vs zerg. Once one decided to push, it was a domino effect. There was no reason at all to fight in the open field anyway. No benefit. Bigger numbers won every night. Tactics be damned. 100s of players communicating? Oh please. The only communication was the rare occurence of multiple WBs meeting at the appropriate keep. After that, it was just a steam roller.
The only tactics I witnesssed were in the scenarios, BECAUSE it was a controlled environment. RvR skirmishes? Where the hell was that happening? The closest thing were picking off the few dummies that didn't stick too close to the zerg on their way to keeps=) Poor guys.
Compared to leveling up on a PvP server in WOW for example, I was in small skirmishes constantly. It was just part of the game. Since WOW"s PvP and PvE areas were the same, almost every zome was a fight. You never had to look for a fight. You were leveling up with the enemy constantly so it just happened naturally. You either fought or ran away. Maybe if the zones in WAR weren't all cut up into pieces, I would've had the same experience which I was expecting. I was expecting a better experience actually, since WAR was supposed to be about WAR. WOW's layout supported constant skirmishes making the fighting seam purposefull for survival. WAR s tunnel you into specific areas and it felt fake and contrived. Thats why I didn't last all that long.
I really dont feel like argueing when i could be enjoying some nice RVR in warhammer on my day off so ill just say wait till the game gets its polish and QQ then. But really tho, if vigil games really gets thier act together and makes this Warhammer 40k mmo even 1/10 of that the lore of the 40k universe then WoW is going to have some stiff competition content wise, not sub wise so dont jump on me immediately after i make the comment .
I can't stand the whole "second job" feel of the old games, making it hard to even call them games in the first place.
New games contain just as much of the second job feel if not more. Lets take the king of the block WOW (since everyone follows their design), what options do you have to progress at 80? Mostly raiding, now if your interested in a serious guild, you have to
a) put in an application
b) several interviews
c) work with 24 other people you may or may not like
d) show up for raid at specific dates and times
e) paid on salary no matter how many hours you work
Explain to me, how this doesn't feel like a second job?
No matter what you think, that "feeling" is subjective. It only feels like a job when you arent having fun. Penalties teach players what to avoid, which in turn makes them better players. You dont get better at chess if you never learn from your mistakes, why should MMOs be any different?
I don't raid. It's even in my sig. So yes, the current crop of games have enough non-raid content to make me happy, but the genre is still eveolving. I'm so looking forward to SWTOR, a raid free game where soloers are not treated like second class citizens in regards to content and rewards. No forced grouping in order to attain 95% of the content. The top 5% of the content is single group based. No raiding, no second job mechanics as far as I have seen, you know, those "faction grind" scenarios, raiding, forced grouping leading to "LFG" hell, quests with the "FedEX" quality to them, having you run back and forth multiple times just to waste time and so forth.
Yes, the current games do still have some "work" mechanics in them, but it's a hell of a lot better than the EQ days, heck of a lot better. How you can say they have just as much if not more than their predecessors boggles my mind.
Opinions by their very nature are subjective, so what exaxtly is your point? Mine is that my point of view seems to be much more popular than yours, ergo, the genre is changing as a result of the more money they can make from the majority of gamers with my kind of opinion. Good for those like me, bad for those like you. Learn to deal with it or stop playing MMOs.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Comments
I was going to read the post but then I realized it was WoW's #1 fanboi on this site and decided to save myself time and frustration heh
Did you play WoW? If you did, did you use Deadly Boss mods, Auctioneer, Questhelper, Decursive, or any mods?
I played WoW for about 2 weeks on a buddies account, thats about as much i could stomach of it if i played it anymore i would have had to gouge my eyes out with a spoon to get some excitement out of the game.
and no I don't use mods ... mods are for pussies, hell i don't even like having a built in map ... would rather learn the area than some "YOU ARE HERE" amusement park map for the half wits.
LMAO WAR trying to be wow?? that's hilarious.. it's the opposite if anything... WAR actually has GOOD pvp.. it IS a pvp-centric game..unlike wow that has its pvp tacked on.
It does? maybe you and I played a different version of WAR. WARs PVP is nothing but a giant zerg fest full of 1 button facerollers. Largest numbers = win just run up to the other zerg and spam whatever aoes you have!!. theres no tactics, no strategy in WAR just bring more friends and more FOTM class than the other guy and you win!.
Did you play WoW? If you did, did you use Deadly Boss mods, Auctioneer, Questhelper, Decursive, or any mods?
I played WoW for about 2 weeks on a buddies account, thats about as much i could stomach of it if i played it anymore i would have had to gouge my eyes out with a spoon to get some excitement out of the game.
and no I don't use mods ... mods are for pussies, hell i don't even like having a built in map ... would rather learn the area than some "YOU ARE HERE" amusement park map for the half wits.
you might have found the game a little more tolerable if you would have used Questhelper or Carbinate. At least you can get through those awful quests a lot faster
One quest was almost cool. In that Outlands area in this cave full of hippographs or whatever you have to rescue a Blood elf. This was kinda cool, I escouted her back to village
But it all fell down to shite when I go back to cave and her see her captured again. Got dammit Blizz why cant you at least 'phase' out crap like this or something? Quests seem so lazy too me. I wouldnt mind them so if I really made an impact.
If I could have rescued this blood elf for real I woulda subbed past a month
LUCKY you-- you didnt waste money for WotLK expansion + $15 sub like I did. I made it only 2 weeks too. MAgic number lol. I swear it was bout 2 weeks
WoW is a different type of game than the other fodder out there. The game really doesn't begin until you are 80 and start raiding. That is where WoW shines and where the real challenge is, not in the ez mode leveling. Although the quest lines, scripts and story are at least interesting if you take the time to read them. I would prefer the old school approach to leveling myself as well, where most of the content needed at least 4 people to accomplish.
Now since the expansion came out recently, the raiding has not gotten extremely difficult yet, and there is not much there, but it will get more difficult, there is a new dungeon coming out next patch, and they will keep releasing new dungeons as people progress. Look back at Burning Crusade, anyone who has went to Black Temple and Sunwell when they were first released will tell you that WoW is NOT an easy game.
I wish they had just kept the level cap at 60 or boosted up the levels and rewards of all the old raids, it seems like so much raid content is wasted in WoW. Instead of the 4 heroic level 80 raids people can do right now, they could have maybe 50 or more. Maybe that is in the future, upgrading all the old content to be relevent to the levels people are at and gear people are trying to obtain.
I do not and never will understand these threads. Why bash games you do not like? If you do not like it do not play it. If you like it play it, keep your bashing to yourself and your friends who want or at least tolerate hearing it. Ive played both of these games they both are good at what they do, but they are different. But seriously, email your friends do not post on mmorpg.com.
LMAO WAR trying to be wow?? that's hilarious.. it's the opposite if anything... WAR actually has GOOD pvp.. it IS a pvp-centric game..unlike wow that has its pvp tacked on.
It does? maybe you and I played a different version of WAR. WARs PVP is nothing but a giant zerg fest full of 1 button facerollers. Largest numbers = win just run up to the other zerg and spam whatever aoes you have!!. theres no tactics, no strategy in WAR just bring more friends and more FOTM class than the other guy and you win!.
Show me one data analysis of War PvP.
You can't. No results, no data, no data on class balance. "Group balance".
Which group? 3, 6, 10, 15, 20? which reference , which settings?
Arena results data, Arena fighting data, PvP video analyses from official PvP tournaments ?
The only thing you see as a player of War is ... the lag in spell castings and unresponsive GCD's between action fases.
And the knocking on a ... door to enter a fortress.
Yep PvP it is.
Honestly zorn, why bash a incomplete game?How long did WoW take the get the pvp truly going? What was WoWs way of class balance? RIng around the nerf bat? What is WoW pvp to you? Its garbage and its always going to be garbage. You honestly think that pvp in wow takes skill? I watched the some arena finals tournament (of course koreans) and the most epic battle between 2 mages was one t hat didnt know how to play is class and the other that pressed his 95 million buttons at the right time. PVP isnt a one man army, its trully utalized with open realm war. Numbers mean little if you know how to play. Have fun with your lol 1v1 2v2 and 3v3 arenas. Instead of opening your fat WoW fanboi mouth, why dont you give WAR as long as it took wow to fix pvp to the extense of WoWs(which still fails!).
Thanks for not singling me out.
Especially when I have no interest whatsoever in this whole "oldergame/newgame" debate. I prefer to stay on course, talk about WAR and WoW as the post title suggests, and not deviate, but if you choose to that's your choice. I'm flattered you picked me out instead of those actually debating it, but sorry, I could care less. As a player I just want a good game. If it's progress, so be it. If its retro, then that's fine with me. Probably need to direct your post to the more vocal folks arguing this point along generational lines.
My one point is in regards to people who claim WoW is easy. That's it. I am not here to hold up the older gen vs the newer gen. One thing I find absolutely hilarious is when people claim that WoW is a regression and easy. But every single one of these people saying that are using game aides from outside thrid-party sources. Patch, I know you tried WoW, you wouldn't be much of a gamer to play MMOs for this many years and not try it while giving a critique on it.
Did you raid in WoW? Did you use mods? If you did, then I cannot see how someone could argue the game is less complex and easy while doing this. It's like someone playing baseball today and saying homeruns are easy to hit, why didn't they do it back in the 40s? Well, better balls, better bats, stronger players, more knowledge, professional hitters, and no second or real "day" jobs other than baseball. Take away mods and see just how easy Wow is too play, I dare you.
I doubt fully 3/4 of the people could even clear trash leading inside the dungeons, based on the tiny amount of folks that actually reach endgame in WoW with with mod help NOW (don't believe for a second the vast majority of gamers playing WoW beat Naxx). But yet because of autopiloting help, the game is supposedly easy. I'm not sure if you had tons of mods and aides helping you out while playing UO, did you? If you didn't, perhaps that could add to your image of its "difficulty" over WoW. If you did have mods to tell you when to run from the bosses, cast, hide, whatever... did you use them?
It's the just stupidest thing someone can utter, not saying this is your position. Again I am not here to merit the virtues of UO against something else. I didn't play UO, it didnt' look good to me back then. And I definitely didn't play Meridan 59, so I'm not so nostalgic over that either.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I played WoW for about 6 months I think it was.
In that time I leveled a Protwar, Rogue and Shadow Priest to 70. I had maxed Engineering, Alchemy and Weaponsmithing. I had fishing almost maxed, cooking, harvesting skills all maxed. I saw all areas of the game that I was able to do without being in a 'hardcore' raiding guild. (I hate signing up for guild webpages, so I usually pass)
There were some older areas I would have liked to experience just for the fun factor, but most people didn't want to do them because the loot wasn't good. But overall I must say I did have fun in WoW. I did not and am not buying the WOTLK. I will not be going back to WoW because usually when I am done with a game, I know it deep down. But I do not feel slighted by my time playing.
I came from three years of FFXI where no one used mods at all, through the whole game. That was at launch. When I went to WoW, every guild made it mandatory you use them. Using them made the game much, much easier and progressing was fast. If I did not have those mods, I would probably still be playing. But lack of guilds that don't use them rules that out, so I did. If I had my choice, I wouldn't use any as games last longer without them. The people you play with have to be much smarter and better players holding aggro and not stealing hate. I did not like that in WoW that in order to get to the endgame, these things were mandatory.
You two on the other hand... I think you have a problem that goes much deeper than just a hate for WoW it seems. You both share the gift of hyperbole, that's for sure; or one can only hope that's what it is.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I dont agree with harsh death penalties either but WAR and plenty of other MMO's out there have zero death penalty and you get lazy because dying doesnt mean anything. At least in EVE you really get mad when you die.
Personally I think a unique system that has not been used yet would be to have a chance of traits that are inflicted on to your character. e.g. spiders kill you a few times and there is a chance you will receive a negative trait against spiders or reduction in poison resistence. The only game I know that has this is fallout tactics. Its not perma death but it develops your character and creates an RPG feel. Imagine getting an ugly scar if you die too many times?
Well, I simply photoshopped them to point out to the WAR players why I felt Mythic had made a mistake making 90% of their zones all PvE oriented considering the game was build for PvP, or RvR should I say.
Coloring in the Red areas for RvR hotspots and the blues for well PvE...=/
As for the map of a Core server in vanilla WoW? Well, I did actually make one at the time so here it is. And within a PvP server since in a PvE server you have to flag yourself in contestant zones (same areas red in the map) to engage in PvP.
And once again as you can see, WoW did a way better job catering to any possible RvR in-game compared to WAR...=/
So why are the classes still so grossly imbalanced after all this data and testing? Why are there FoTM classes after every patch? Why do they even have test servers if they have to emergency repatch some idiotic mistake they completely missed? You seem like an intelligent person and I agree with alot of what you say, but making the WoW arena out to be some huge success in pvp design or balance, makes me wonder.
You have to queue up for an arena match. How is that PvP? What do you win? More items. Thrilling.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Honestly zorn, why bash a incomplete game?How long did WoW take the get the pvp truly going? What was WoWs way of class balance? RIng around the nerf bat? What is WoW pvp to you? Its garbage and its always going to be garbage. You honestly think that pvp in wow takes skill? I watched the some arena finals tournament (of course koreans) and the most epic battle between 2 mages was one t hat didnt know how to play is class and the other that pressed his 95 million buttons at the right time. PVP isnt a one man army, its trully utalized with open realm war. Numbers mean little if you know how to play. Have fun with your lol 1v1 2v2 and 3v3 arenas. Instead of opening your fat WoW fanboi mouth, why dont you give WAR as long as it took wow to fix pvp to the extense of WoWs(which still fails!).
The problem is that you apparently don't know anything about Wow's PvP mechanics and fluid responsive controls.
Arena data sampling of 3vs3 and 5vs5 serve as a constant developpers tool to tune the interaction between classes in a fixed setting. You have the "results" data and the "developpers" data taken from the extremely useful flow of highly played competitive settings.
So as the tournaments are even being played with FREE equal to choose gear, only skill awards the best players. As Blizzard showed, ... the same players coming on top of these (analysed) competition fights also come on top in game.
I don't need no further proof as I can witness it every day in watching one of the better players on my server battling it out in very attractive arena fights. And seeing todays stats you already see the change over 2 months time, just tx to the arena data.
-----
The War engine is seriously lacking in all aspects. From serious GCD hic-ups to slow and unresponsive controls and spell castings. That engine won't change no matter what.
They said they would fix it 6 months before Beta, in Beta, after launch, at christmas and in the next patch. The bottom line is : it didn't change at all.
You swing I swing You swing I swing for minutes is not the kind of PvP people want to play as PvP. Unless you are indeed playing an un-pvp game and vending it as PvP.
Throwing four letter words at the unmatched responsive controls of Wow fights is silly as everyone who ever controlled his Wow avatar can testify.
The only problem the first 3 months after each 10 level increase expansion is already long gone in WotLK, so lame excuses of burst damage are already long solved in the last 2 months.
And the arena data are an assurance every class gets the necessary attention and polish in Wow. The data are a constant reminder of this. You don't have ANY data in War.
Mythic is just not up to Blizzard quality we are used to, no matter how many 4 letter words you try to include.
It is as simple as that.
As much as I hate to admit it tanner, I do think you make a several great points about WoW but you clearly regard blizzard as god and WoW as the bible. I too once enjoyed the interesting battles in alterac valley whilst grinding towards my high warlords. Shortly after BC if found that WoW started its plummet as far as dumbing the game down to suit a wider fan base(as far as PVE goes). I tried arena out but being a previous DAOC fan and loving the idea of the widescale somewhat immersive pvp experience as a veteran Lineage II player I found that BGs werent working for me and arena was too......Guild wars-ish. I feel that in arena theres a lot of pressure on other teammates and it just feels like the guild vs guild battles in guild wars where you have a strat and you deviate somewhat from the strat and improvise based on what your going against and where the the battle is going. I honestly rather play a RTS for the same feeling, and count on my micro skills rather than have other ppl drag me down. WoW just felt like your mashing all your buttons in a strict order and getting nothing out of it. From what your saying they have gone a long way as far as class tweaks and it seems that its more balanced yes? You almost make me want to go back and try it again(no joke) but for someone not so arena attentive aside from getting the gear, what is your take on wintergrasp?
All in all I do agree with your beliefs on WoW, but it still took 2+ years for pvp to even work. You say there are unfixable things in WAR, yet they proved us wrong time and time again make several HUGE changes to how the game works. From what your comments are it seems you havent played the game for a few months and extensive changes to the GDC and responsiveness to abilities has been changed a lot. The game is still growing and one major thing is you dont seem to understand how much as far as devs and overall amount of ppl blizzard and mythic has to work with(and still mythic is amazing for what they accomplished with so few). To each gamer is to each his game, clearly you dont seem to understand the difference in RvR and controlled variables in a set match of x vs x players. WAR simply draws a different crowd as far as pvp goes. I prefer uncontrolled variables and a "anything can happen" atmosphere to a simple and possible repetetive arena match. Then you gain what is real pvp (to me) with immersive skirmishes with tank lines, mage lines and melee skirmishes where you and several hundred ppl engage in epic fights for ground.Anything can happen and its up to how well you work as a force rather than pressing the right buttons as a 1 2 3 or 5 man army. I feel that is real pvp to me. Regardless thats why i want to you to post how wintergrasp is as far as army vs army clashes and if it meets this sort of idea.
Where does this occur? Never saw that ONCE playing WAR for around 4 months. I understand thats your vision or idea of what WAR is supposed to be like, but thats not how the game is actually played. I read time and time again about large scale tactics that never ever happened. There are no such thing as tank lines unless you mention HORRID, HORRID throne room standoffs and if you want to call that a GOOD thing, you're nutty=) I wouldn't call stacking a bunch of tanks on the top of the stairs while healers spammed them intelligent strategy. It was the ONLY strategy and it was boring. Otherwise, It was just zerg vs zerg. Once one decided to push, it was a domino effect. There was no reason at all to fight in the open field anyway. No benefit. Bigger numbers won every night. Tactics be damned. 100s of players communicating? Oh please. The only communication was the rare occurence of multiple WBs meeting at the appropriate keep. After that, it was just a steam roller.
The only tactics I witnesssed were in the scenarios, BECAUSE it was a controlled environment. RvR skirmishes? Where the hell was that happening? The closest thing were picking off the few dummies that didn't stick too close to the zerg on their way to keeps=) Poor guys.
Compared to leveling up on a PvP server in WOW for example, I was in small skirmishes constantly. It was just part of the game. Since WOW"s PvP and PvE areas were the same, almost every zome was a fight. You never had to look for a fight. You were leveling up with the enemy constantly so it just happened naturally. You either fought or ran away. Maybe if the zones in WAR weren't all cut up into pieces, I would've had the same experience which I was expecting. I was expecting a better experience actually, since WAR was supposed to be about WAR. WOW's layout supported constant skirmishes making the fighting seam purposefull for survival. WAR's tunnel you into specific areas and it felt fake and contrived. Thats why I didn't last all that long.
Oh someone had to pull this one out their ass. Dude, only you care that warhammer was written before warcraft. We're talking mmo's here. The only thing that matters is wow was first and warcraft franchise had already taken the cake years and years ago. Yeah most of us including you may have been smart when we started wow. Now look at you. We enjoyed it so much that now we're on the lifelong quest trying to find another great mmo when even blizzard won't be able to satisfy us in the same way again. But to enjoy war and actually defend it the way you do takes another level of delusion.
Where does this occur? Never saw that ONCE playing WAR for around 4 months. I understand thats your vision or idea of what WAR is supposed to be like, but thats not how the game is actually played. I read time and time again about large scale tactics that never ever happened. There are no such thing as tank lines unless you mention HORRID, HORRID throne room standoffs and if you want to call that a GOOD thing, you're nutty=) I wouldn't call stacking a bunch of tanks on the top of the stairs while healers spammed them intelligent strategy. It was the ONLY strategy and it was boring. Otherwise, It was just zerg vs zerg. Once one decided to push, it was a domino effect. There was no reason at all to fight in the open field anyway. No benefit. Bigger numbers won every night. Tactics be damned. 100s of players communicating? Oh please. The only communication was the rare occurence of multiple WBs meeting at the appropriate keep. After that, it was just a steam roller.
The only tactics I witnesssed were in the scenarios, BECAUSE it was a controlled environment. RvR skirmishes? Where the hell was that happening? The closest thing were picking off the few dummies that didn't stick too close to the zerg on their way to keeps=) Poor guys.
Compared to leveling up on a PvP server in WOW for example, I was in small skirmishes constantly. It was just part of the game. Since WOW"s PvP and PvE areas were the same, almost every zome was a fight. You never had to look for a fight. You were leveling up with the enemy constantly so it just happened naturally. You either fought or ran away. Maybe if the zones in WAR weren't all cut up into pieces, I would've had the same experience which I was expecting. I was expecting a better experience actually, since WAR was supposed to be about WAR. WOW's layout supported constant skirmishes making the fighting seam purposefull for survival. WAR's tunnel you into specific areas and it felt fake and contrived. Thats why I didn't last all that long.
That is true. Tank-lining the stairs is one of the key strategies used for Keep battles, however it is an important one. Since Keep capturing is a sport/chore only started in the last few months, it will take some time before any new strategy comes up. I'm not being optimistic here, I'm actually making a comparison to how tactics evolved over the years specifically for Alterac Valley in WoW (an instance which altogether seems dead right now). It went from point-to-point tower capping, summoning your massive ally mob, rushing like a mad zerg, stealth capping, etc.
Inevitably, after playing WAR for a good few months after playing WotLK... then visiting WoW again... Blizzard has an overall immersive gameplay design for all their games. It sucks that not many other developers have accomplished this in every game they put out. Only vendetta I have against Blizzard is how often they'll jack someone else's ideas to improve their own --- blatantly jacking them --- like, copyright infringement-worthy.
Lol, I'd love to know where they've gone to, because there isn't a game going at the moment that isn't a cookie-cutter "kill 15 of this, bring me 20 of that" grind-fest. Please God, will some company with lots of money, a creative team and some innovation bring something NEW out!
38 Studios
You'll see...
Oh someone had to pull this one out their ass. Dude, only you care that warhammer was written before warcraft. We're talking mmo's here. The only thing that matters is wow was first and warcraft franchise had already taken the cake years and years ago. Yeah most of us including you may have been smart when we started wow. Now look at you. We enjoyed it so much that now we're on the lifelong quest trying to find another great mmo when even blizzard won't be able to satisfy us in the same way again. But to enjoy war and actually defend it the way you do takes another level of delusion.
WOW the MMO came out long before WAR the MMO. WAR owes almost any success it has to WOW's existence. WOW's leveling system, quests and world didn't come from Warhammer. Warhammer is a card game. WOW is a MMO. Class design, balance and everything else that makes a MMO didn't get borrowed or stolen from a freakin card game and certainly not a MMO that didn't even exist when WOW released=)
And speaking of retard proofing...I guess you never played WAR. WAR makes WOW seem difficult. When people talk abuot dumbing a game down, WAR is a prime example from its death penalty, even faster EXP gain, instant travel, quest pointers, linear zone design, even easier ways to earn rewards, ect. You'd have to be blind to call WOW "retard proof" or "going down the drain" while at the same time, defending WAR. Seriously, are you joking?
I found the whole "tanks are worth something in WAR" to be slightly dishonest.
Sure, in a keep with a narrow one-way only , upwardly winding hallway, tanks are great. But look at the other places.
--Scenario. There are no real "tank lines" or "mage lines". The whole area can be ran around and outflanked at any time. Tanks don't help much then.
--BO's and open battlefield zones. Again, tanks are useless and if anyone was smart, they ignore any tank they see and simply go for squishies and midrangers. But you see knuckleheads beating on KOTBS and Black Orcs for some stupid reason. Just swarm the healers then casters! There really doesn't need to be a complex strategy in this game when the situation doesn't call for it. To line up like the British Army would and whine when someone doesn't "fight fair" but uses the zerg method is rather stupid.
And the majority of time in WAR, the situation RARELY calls for it. This is why the zerg is so prevalent on plenty of servers. On paper all the different classes, abilities etc all looks good. But in terms of actual transferred gameplay that Mythic provides in terms of layout, the terrain is limiting and only one style of play makes any sense at all.
There is a faulty thinking with WAR fans I liken to someone describing a car as a "highly motorized vehicle equipped with wheels and a combustible, electical or otherwise internally generated power source capable of propelling it in a fashion and able to transport passengers from one vantage point to another"; rather than simply call it a car. It's just pretty unnecessary.
The way this game is set up.. just 'zerg it', baby!
"TO MICHAEL!"
New games contain just as much of the second job feel if not more. Lets take the king of the block WOW (since everyone follows their design), what options do you have to progress at 80? Mostly raiding, now if your interested in a serious guild, you have to
a) put in an application
b) several interviews
c) work with 24 other people you may or may not like
d) show up for raid at specific dates and times
e) paid on salary no matter how many hours you work
Explain to me, how this doesn't feel like a second job?
No matter what you think, that "feeling" is subjective. It only feels like a job when you arent having fun. Penalties teach players what to avoid, which in turn makes them better players. You dont get better at chess if you never learn from your mistakes, why should MMOs be any different?
Where does this occur? Never saw that ONCE playing WAR for around 4 months. I understand thats your vision or idea of what WAR is supposed to be like, but thats not how the game is actually played. I read time and time again about large scale tactics that never ever happened. There are no such thing as tank lines unless you mention HORRID, HORRID throne room standoffs and if you want to call that a GOOD thing, you're nutty=) I wouldn't call stacking a bunch of tanks on the top of the stairs while healers spammed them intelligent strategy. It was the ONLY strategy and it was boring. Otherwise, It was just zerg vs zerg. Once one decided to push, it was a domino effect. There was no reason at all to fight in the open field anyway. No benefit. Bigger numbers won every night. Tactics be damned. 100s of players communicating? Oh please. The only communication was the rare occurence of multiple WBs meeting at the appropriate keep. After that, it was just a steam roller.
The only tactics I witnesssed were in the scenarios, BECAUSE it was a controlled environment. RvR skirmishes? Where the hell was that happening? The closest thing were picking off the few dummies that didn't stick too close to the zerg on their way to keeps=) Poor guys.
Compared to leveling up on a PvP server in WOW for example, I was in small skirmishes constantly. It was just part of the game. Since WOW"s PvP and PvE areas were the same, almost every zome was a fight. You never had to look for a fight. You were leveling up with the enemy constantly so it just happened naturally. You either fought or ran away. Maybe if the zones in WAR weren't all cut up into pieces, I would've had the same experience which I was expecting. I was expecting a better experience actually, since WAR was supposed to be about WAR. WOW's layout supported constant skirmishes making the fighting seam purposefull for survival. WAR s tunnel you into specific areas and it felt fake and contrived. Thats why I didn't last all that long.
I really dont feel like argueing when i could be enjoying some nice RVR in warhammer on my day off so ill just say wait till the game gets its polish and QQ then. But really tho, if vigil games really gets thier act together and makes this Warhammer 40k mmo even 1/10 of that the lore of the 40k universe then WoW is going to have some stiff competition content wise, not sub wise so dont jump on me immediately after i make the comment
.
New games contain just as much of the second job feel if not more. Lets take the king of the block WOW (since everyone follows their design), what options do you have to progress at 80? Mostly raiding, now if your interested in a serious guild, you have to
a) put in an application
b) several interviews
c) work with 24 other people you may or may not like
d) show up for raid at specific dates and times
e) paid on salary no matter how many hours you work
Explain to me, how this doesn't feel like a second job?
No matter what you think, that "feeling" is subjective. It only feels like a job when you arent having fun. Penalties teach players what to avoid, which in turn makes them better players. You dont get better at chess if you never learn from your mistakes, why should MMOs be any different?
I don't raid. It's even in my sig. So yes, the current crop of games have enough non-raid content to make me happy, but the genre is still eveolving. I'm so looking forward to SWTOR, a raid free game where soloers are not treated like second class citizens in regards to content and rewards. No forced grouping in order to attain 95% of the content. The top 5% of the content is single group based. No raiding, no second job mechanics as far as I have seen, you know, those "faction grind" scenarios, raiding, forced grouping leading to "LFG" hell, quests with the "FedEX" quality to them, having you run back and forth multiple times just to waste time and so forth.
Yes, the current games do still have some "work" mechanics in them, but it's a hell of a lot better than the EQ days, heck of a lot better. How you can say they have just as much if not more than their predecessors boggles my mind.
Opinions by their very nature are subjective, so what exaxtly is your point? Mine is that my point of view seems to be much more popular than yours, ergo, the genre is changing as a result of the more money they can make from the majority of gamers with my kind of opinion. Good for those like me, bad for those like you. Learn to deal with it or stop playing MMOs.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal