Well it's common knowledge now that WAR is a watered down half baked WoW clone that was made to draw casual PvPers with its even more brainless style of button meshing gameplay and zero skill requirements, and pretty much even offended the casual players on how brainless it was. But I can't help but to think Mythic wasn't behind all of this stupid decision making and that EA played a major part in it.
I mean let me pose another question while at it.....would you trust Mythic with another MMO if EA was to seriously bow out of this one...or do you think they'd mess it up again. Because honestly I still expect more from Mythic than what I got here. Maybe not as much as Daoc but definitely more than WAR.
Oh here we go with another "let's blame the big bad publisher" post.I mean all EA really did was make it possible for you guys to play the game I assume you all loved to play in it's earlier forms.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Let me make that very clear, if there was a better game around for this kind of pvp, i would change to it in a heartbeat. But there isnt. Neither AoC nor EQ II nor Vanguard nor LotRO not even Daocoffer me the kind of pvp war does, i tried all of them and none has a pvp system as fleshed out as war. It is simply unique, and if you want that you dont have a alternative atm.
The point where a lot, or actually probably even most people who played Daoc disagree with you.
I put the important part in bold. Can i level in doac through pvp? Last i checked not. Can you queue szenarios from everywhere in the world while doing other stuff? Nope. Do i even have over a dozen different szenarios? nope. And as you said, most people who played, as in they are not playing anymore, that game is as deserted as it gets in the lower brackets(european servers).
Originally posted by Daffid011
You have some strange points in your comparison. Wow constant nerfing of classes, but warhammer (mythic) ishas a rather well known reputation for the same thing. In all reality this is something common in every game, but blizzard has far more to balance for compared to warhammer.
You say warcraft has overpowered/underpowered classes and flavor of the month, but when you put the same comparison to warhammer somehow it doesn't matter, because it is a team based game? Come on, team play is not an excuse to have classes that suck or are wildly over powered. Even saying that you are being completely over dramatic about wow. "Totally mess up all the classes every few patchs" is being just a tad bit extreme don't you think?
What were people complaining about warhammer? There is far to much to list, but it really isn't important to list them all since the outcome is what is important. People left, because warhammer didn't do what it set out to do.
I'll present it like this. If the rvr combat of warhammer was removed how many people do you think warhammer would have? It would be pretty safe to assume warhammer would lose the majority of the remaining subscribers. Then consider the state of rvr at the release of the game and you can see the full picture of what happened. Even the rvr has limited draw, because it is the same thing over and over in almost identical settings.
We can both gush about loving the game, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation. Warhammer has issues and even the devs admit so in their patch notes and state of the game addresses. Just go read the first few state of the games and you can see just how far mythic missed the target of this game. It was filled with notes about changing almost everything in the game.
Mythic has to balance RvR, everything else takes a backseat. Blizzard tries to balance 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 Arenas, raid content, BG content and sometimes it seems even 1on1s.
The main difference is, in war it only matters that 3 order WBs should be about as strong as 3 Destro WBs. A SH doesnt have to be balanced 1on1 vs a WL for RvR to work, you dont even need to balance RDPS vs RDPS cause it might even out at some other place(mdps, tanks or healers). In wow you have the whole esports community breathing down your neck demanding fair fights and equal chances. If a retpaladin can buff refreshment to the raid a frost mage should be able to do it too ... just because.
And yes they do mess up the classes every few patches, just read the last patchnotes. Just look at what they did with the paladin, shaman, druid, warlock or warrior in the past. And their last coup, equalizing all the classes. Tell me is there any class left that isnt a valid dps class? Any healer that cant mainheal? Any class with a taunt that cant maintank? Then take a look at where it all startet and tell me they didnt totally mess up their own vision of the game. They even startet normalizing the gear, palas, DKs and warriors all wear the same armor for dps or tanking for example. Healers and Magic dps wear the same items. No longer a differention between magical and physical crit/hit/speed rating. Most of that within a few major patches from each other. Thats not even touching on the balance changes to the classes themselves.
But you are right, without the rvr warhammer would be dead, and it lost the players it did loose due to not meeting the expectations of most people. And im ranting, cause blizzard makes me angry with their constant changes to things that didnt need changing.
RIP Druid tank.
Edit: When you cancel your WoW sub, and choose pvp as reason, there shows up a text stating that pvp is the heart and mainfocus of the game and they continously try to improve it yadda yadda. When did that happen?
Let me make that very clear, if there was a better game around for this kind of pvp, i would change to it in a heartbeat. But there isnt. Neither AoC nor EQ II nor Vanguard nor LotRO not even Daocoffer me the kind of pvp war does, i tried all of them and none has a pvp system as fleshed out as war. It is simply unique, and if you want that you dont have a alternative atm.
The point where a lot, or actually probably even most people who played Daoc disagree with you.
I put the important part in bold. Can i level in doac through pvp? Last i checked not. Can you queue szenarios from everywhere in the world while doing other stuff? Nope. Do i even have over a dozen different szenarios? nope. And as you said, most people who played, as in they are not playing anymore, that game is as deserted as it gets in the lower brackets(european servers).
You're the one who said none of them had pvp as fleshed out as WAR did which seemed to be disconnected from your "now" argument and which I'm sure most those daoc folks would disagree with as well.
Ok though, I get it, "It's the lesser of x evils" is your argument then. If that works for you. Problem is many people don't agree, especially the ones who were expecting something at least similar or better to Daoc in PvP (more options such as levelling through PvP does not mean the PvP experience is better) or the PvE (or combo at least) better than WoW which a lot find it isn't are the problem.
Most of it's gonna depend on how many decide to call it "good enough" and agree with the direction Mythic takes it.
Game's back in the top 20 right now (16 I believe) so it probably picked up a little (albeit there's hardly any competition of new games at the moment), probably the trials doing some good. Still leaves their main problem, retention. As the 750k+ -> 300k+ dip has shown them that's not good for them. If that many of the trials end up quitting as well they really will need to keep bringing in increased numbers of trial-> subs.
Mythic has to balance RvR, everything else takes a backseat. Blizzard tries to balance 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 Arenas, raid content, BG content and sometimes it seems even 1on1s. The main difference is, in war it only matters that 3 order WBs should be about as strong as 3 Destro WBs. A SH doesnt have to be balanced 1on1 vs a WL for RvR to work, you dont even need to balance RDPS vs RDPS cause it might even out at some other place(mdps, tanks or healers). In wow you have the whole esports community breathing down your neck demanding fair fights and equal chances. If a retpaladin can buff refreshment to the raid a frost mage should be able to do it too ... just because. And yes they do mess up the classes every few patches, just read the last patchnotes. Just look at what they did with the paladin, shaman, druid, warlock or warrior in the past. And their last coup, equalizing all the classes. Tell me is there any class left that isnt a valid dps class? Any healer that cant mainheal? Any class with a taunt that cant maintank? Then take a look at where it all startet and tell me they didnt totally mess up their own vision of the game. They even startet normalizing the gear, palas, DKs and warriors all wear the same armor for dps or tanking for example. Healers and Magic dps wear the same items. No longer a differention between magical and physical crit/hit/speed rating. Most of that within a few major patches from each other. Thats not even touching on the balance changes to the classes themselves.
But you are right, without the rvr warhammer would be dead, and it lost the players it did loose due to not meeting the expectations of most people. And im ranting, cause blizzard makes me angry with their constant changes to things that didnt need changing. RIP Druid tank.
Edit: When you cancel your WoW sub, and choose pvp as reason, there shows up a text stating that pvp is the heart and mainfocus of the game and they continously try to improve it yadda yadda. When did that happen?
Mythic doesn't need to balance anything outside of rvr, because honestly the rest of the game is bland and uninspiring. It just doens't have any teeth to it. Blizzard has a lot more to balance, because honestly all aspects of their game works. It is the best balanced game for pvp/pve on the market. Not perfect and honestly it never will be, but they do far better than anyone else does. The weakest spot is the areana, because it highlights class verse class combat and not team based combat (which you may not realize wow is also a team based game). It is hard to balance 1 vs 1 combat and still maintain balance in large scale encounters. The arena/esport just highlights that flaw. You will see that same thing happening when mythic starts introducing 6v6 combat arenas. Some formula of classes will rise to the top while the rest fall off the charts. Watch and see.
It doesn't revolve around how one class stacks up against another class in one on one combat. Blizzards current approach is far superior to what you point out above as ruined gameplay. Any tank can do the job of tanking, same with healers, same with dps. That is balance. If a class is categorized as filling a role, then it should be able to fullfil that position and not send people looking for viable alternatives.
When you get a large warband, is it going to be balanced regardless of what classes fill it up? Not currently. Can you remove all the brightwizards and replace them with shadow warriors and your group still have the same level of effectiveness? No, classes need balance in the roles they are designed for. Just because you can tuck a handful of classes that underpeform into a large group doesn't mean that is a winning formula for balance. Players will eventually find out what classes suck and start to exclude them in favor of classes that perform their roles better, even moreso for classes that are "overpowered" in their roles. That is assuming there is enough population for warbands to pick/choose who they invite.
P.S. Whats wrong with druid tanks? They are still just as awesome as they were.
Its clear that MJ and PB thought they had a killer product on their hands what with all the bragging and boasting interviews at release. "We have an office bet about subscriptions. Ive bet a million subs in the first year" Said barnett. Im guessing Paul lost his $20.
I liked it when Jacobs almost had a mental breakdown because Tigole made some (actually quite accurate) comments about warhammer. He was all over VNboards with fanbois trying to calm him down "Mark, its not worth it!" whilst Jacobs was trash talking about how he couldnt just remain silent. It was pretty much the writing on the wall even back then. They tried to create wow lite with emphasis on pvp, but failed on almost every aspect. Jacobs constant "if you dont like my news, im taking my ball home" and accusations of 'trolling' because he doesnt want to hear the truth didnt help the games image much.
Well it's common knowledge now that WAR is a watered down half baked WoW clone that was made to draw casual PvPers with its even more brainless style of button meshing gameplay and zero skill requirements, and pretty much even offended the casual players on how brainless it was. But I can't help but to think Mythic wasn't behind all of this stupid decision making and that EA played a major part in it.
I mean let me pose another question while at it.....would you trust Mythic with another MMO if EA was to seriously bow out of this one...or do you think they'd mess it up again. Because honestly I still expect more from Mythic than what I got here. Maybe not as much as Daoc but definitely more than WAR.
WAR failed in one respect, PvP had no real gain or loss, that being said it was STILL better then WoWackness.
Then again games after UO and Everquest have let me down over all lol.
LoL, sorry, but WoW has a wayyyyy higher skill cap than WAR, WoW is a way better PvP game than WAR. The only thing that keeps WoW from being a highly competitive game is how god awful its RNG is, and that was mostly Blizzard's idea to give novice players (noobs) a fighting chance against players with higher skills. Which funny enough is also what's keeping the classes balanced enough to be bearable to compete...lol
A game easy enough for noobs but yet complex enough to keep more seasoned players interested, what Blizzard likes to refer to the donut design.
Anyways, to recap, WAR failed because it took the donut design of WoW and decided to remove the inner circle...simple as that.
WoW's pvp better than WAR?
OP's credibility gone in the first few pages, obviously a troll thread.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
Originally posted by Daffid011 Mythic doesn't need to balance anything outside of rvr, because honestly the rest of the game is bland and uninspiring. It just doens't have any teeth to it. Blizzard has a lot more to balance, because honestly all aspects of their game works. It is the best balanced game for pvp/pve on the market. Not perfect and honestly it never will be, but they do far better than anyone else does. The weakest spot is the areana, because it highlights class verse class combat and not team based combat (which you may not realize wow is also a team based game). It is hard to balance 1 vs 1 combat and still maintain balance in large scale encounters. The arena/esport just highlights that flaw. You will see that same thing happening when mythic starts introducing 6v6 combat arenas. Some formula of classes will rise to the top while the rest fall off the charts. Watch and see.
It doesn't revolve around how one class stacks up against another class in one on one combat. Blizzards current approach is far superior to what you point out above as ruined gameplay. Any tank can do the job of tanking, same with healers, same with dps. That is balance. If a class is categorized as filling a role, then it should be able to fullfil that position and not send people looking for viable alternatives. When you get a large warband, is it going to be balanced regardless of what classes fill it up? Not currently. Can you remove all the brightwizards and replace them with shadow warriors and your group still have the same level of effectiveness? No, classes need balance in the roles they are designed for. Just because you can tuck a handful of classes that underpeform into a large group doesn't mean that is a winning formula for balance. Players will eventually find out what classes suck and start to exclude them in favor of classes that perform their roles better, even moreso for classes that are "overpowered" in their roles. That is assuming there is enough population for warbands to pick/choose who they invite.
P.S. Whats wrong with druid tanks? They are still just as awesome as they were.
Again i disagree. Even long before warhammer was released and disappointed many, we still knew that there would be no balancing for pve or 1on1 at the cost of RvR. Blizzard changed their priorities around alot, in the beginning they blanced for pve, then came diminishing returns and they balanced for pvp, soon after alliance got shamans and horde paladins which was again for balance reasons. Now we are at the point that the game is balanced around arena and raidcontent by equalizing classes. Sure its convinient if you dont need a ret paladin for a mana refreshment buff to your whole raid, just take a frost mage instead. Also who needs mages for AOE, a rogue can AOE too. It just feels to me as if there is sacrificed to much just to archive what seems like balance, but it isnt balance, i feel that every time i try to join a BG on warlock or balance druid. Everyone can dps equal, but some of us are glascannons while others wear plate, have invulnurabiltiy shields and have tools especially made to counter us. Rock/paper/scissors systems require classes to be different, not equal. There should be a price a ret paladin/dk/warrior pays for his survivability and burst damage, i dont see it(and yes i also have a paladin, and yes i pwn with him).
And no, outside of 5vs5 arena wow is not a team based pvp game. Most people in scenarios run around like headless chicken doing their own thing, and it works fine. There is no plan, no real synergy. There are just strong classes and weak classes, if you take two strong classes they are always better than a combination that includes a weak class. Thats why i linked the arena site that shows that paladin + DK is the most faviorite 2on2 combo by >50% in a previous post. Cause paladins are strong, DKs are strong = win.
I admit that is the same in war. There are also strong combinations(tank+melee healer f.e.), the difference is that in war there is basicly no situation where the outcome of a 2on2 has any significance, its meaningless like the duels in wow. It wont decide a keep battle, and likely not even a scenario. Even though i play a comperatively weak class(magus), that would totally get destroyed in any kind of 2on2 with said classes, im still a valuable class in large scale rvr.
And yes if mythic ever includes 6vs6 arenas there will be strong combinations and weaker. But warhammer will never focus on esport, and mythic will never trash classes because of those arenas cause i simply cant see them becoming anything important. Keepbattles, zonetakes, razing the enemy capital are the important stuff and the game will likely be balanced according to that(all posts of mythic persons lead me to believe that).
Druid tanks got neutered with the last patch. Oh not the highend raiding ferals, if you have t7.5 equip its hardly even a nerf i heard others report. But those of us who dont have high end equip are in deep trouble, my guild just startet running naxx, and suddenly our druid tank cant tank the bosses he did before. So what are we supposed to do? Throw him out of the raid and get another tanking class? Not gonna happen as we are a casual guild, but wiping with him on bosses we did fine before is not fun either, he takes it even worse than the rest of us cause he feels he is letting us down due to no fault of his own.
P.S.: No you cant replace BW with SW. Because they dont fill the same role. One is a physical rdps with melee capabilities thats intended to take out squishies(like healers or sorcs), the other is magical rdps that excels at AOE and taking out heavily armored targets. But you can exchange WL for slayers, SMs for IBs or SW for Engineer cause depending on how they are skill they share the same role. Obviosly there are situations where a certain role is more important than another, then again that is the way it is for a game with set objectives like keeptakes.
Originally posted by Rocketeer Again i disagree. Even long before warhammer was released and disappointed many, we still knew that there would be no balancing for pve or 1on1 at the cost of RvR. Blizzard changed their priorities around alot, in the beginning they blanced for pve, then came diminishing returns and they balanced for pvp, soon after alliance got shamans and horde paladins which was again for balance reasons. Now we are at the point that the game is balanced around arena and raidcontent by equalizing classes. Sure its convinient if you dont need a ret paladin for a mana refreshment buff to your whole raid, just take a frost mage instead. Also who needs mages for AOE, a rogue can AOE too. It just feels to me as if there is sacrificed to much just to archive what seems like balance, but it isnt balance, i feel that every time i try to join a BG on warlock or balance druid. Everyone can dps equal, but some of us are glascannons while others wear plate, have invulnurabiltiy shields and have tools especially made to counter us. Rock/paper/scissors systems require classes to be different, not equal. There should be a price a ret paladin/dk/warrior pays for his survivability and burst damage, i dont see it(and yes i also have a paladin, and yes i pwn with him).
And no, outside of 5vs5 arena wow is not a team based pvp game. Most people in scenarios run around like headless chicken doing their own thing, and it works fine. There is no plan, no real synergy. There are just strong classes and weak classes, if you take two strong classes they are always better than a combination that includes a weak class. Thats why i linked the arena site that shows that paladin + DK is the most faviorite 2on2 combo by >50% in a previous post. Cause paladins are strong, DKs are strong = win.
I admit that is the same in war. There are also strong combinations(tank+melee healer f.e.), the difference is that in war there is basicly no situation where the outcome of a 2on2 has any significance, its meaningless like the duels in wow. It wont decide a keep battle, and likely not even a scenario. Even though i play a comperatively weak class(magus), that would totally get destroyed in any kind of 2on2 with said classes, im still a valuable class in large scale rvr.
And yes if mythic ever includes 6vs6 arenas there will be strong combinations and weaker. But warhammer will never focus on esport, and mythic will never trash classes because of those arenas cause i simply cant see them becoming anything important. Keepbattles, zonetakes, razing the enemy capital are the important stuff and the game will likely be balanced according to that(all posts of mythic persons lead me to believe that).
Druid tanks got neutered with the last patch. Oh not the highend raiding ferals, if you have t7.5 equip its hardly even a nerf i heard others report. But those of us who dont have high end equip are in deep trouble, my guild just startet running naxx, and suddenly our druid tank cant tank the bosses he did before. So what are we supposed to do? Throw him out of the raid and get another tanking class? Not gonna happen as we are a casual guild, but wiping with him on bosses we did fine before is not fun either, he takes it even worse than the rest of us cause he feels he is letting us down due to no fault of his own.
P.S.: No you cant replace BW with SW. Because they dont fill the same role. One is a physical rdps with melee capabilities thats intended to take out squishies(like healers or sorcs), the other is magical rdps that excels at AOE and taking out heavily armored targets. But you can exchange WL for slayers, SMs for IBs or SW for Engineer cause depending on how they are skill they share the same role. Obviosly there are situations where a certain role is more important than another, then again that is the way it is for a game with set objectives like keeptakes.
Wow is not balanced around arenas. Blizzard tries to keep arenas, as well as everything else, in mind while making the game, but it is primarily a pve game with group pvp balancing. That is why you see such wild swings in arena power pairings.
As for my brightwizard example there is no difference between physical and magic ranged dps, they are both ranged dps classes. If your warbands need the ae of brightwizards and you don't have brightwizards in large supply you are screwed. There is little in the way of balance between ranged dps classes. My point was also that shadow warriors are laughable in single target damage where brightwizards are not something you can ignore. A ranged dps class should fill the basic features of the class regardless of what class it is. Ranged dps being the simplest of the issues with everything else playing a factor. If ae damage is a major tactic in the game (which it is right now) then there should not be one class that dominates it, because it make the entire system reliant on that one class. Blizzard saw this in wow and fixed it. Time will tell what mythic does, because they seem to be throwing darts at a board right now.
As for what mythic will NEVER do, that is a very strong word. Keep in mind that mythic is introducing their first 6v6 scenario in the next patch. I suspect it is due to players running an informal version of it in the field and mythic realizing that people do like such things. How will it affect the way mythic balances things when reports start coming in of classes being overpowered or weak in these areas, who knows. I do know that even though the game is team play based, all of those encounters in large warbands are nothing but many little 2v2 type skirmishes scattered amongst the zerg rush. Many times during the large fights it does boil down to the person you are attacking and what class you are (vusa versa)
Originally posted by Daffid011 Wow is not balanced around arenas. Blizzard tries to keep arenas, as well as everything else, in mind while making the game, but it is primarily a pve game with group pvp balancing. That is why you see such wild swings in arena power pairings. <That is what i said, they try to keep everything in mind at the same time. While in the beginning only pve(not even raidcontent) countet. The wild swings we see are due to pve balance affecting pvp balance(and vice versa ofc), which is especially easy to see with DKs and Ret paladins. For these classes to be competitive in raids they have to pull the same dps than pure classes, they also have to be able to atleast potentially tank(only the druid has a really steep drop from its tank form vs its dps form). This spells trouble for arena, cause we have tough extreme high damage classes with self healing capabilities. Thats also the reason why the DKs and paladins damage mitigations shields got heavily changed, the mobs certainly didnt care either way>
As for my brightwizard example there is no difference between physical and magic ranged dps <wrong, magical dps ignores armor and is affected by resistances instead, BWs also have a tactic that makes their primary single target spells unblockable/disruptable>, they are both ranged dps classes. If your warbands need the ae of brightwizards and you don't have brightwizards in large supply you are screwed.<This is true, but likewise i could say if your WB needs tanks and you dont have them you are screwed. Besides that i have been in alot of successful warbands without sorceresses, saying you need that class is simply not true.> There is little in the way of balance between ranged dps classes. My point was also that shadow warriors are laughable in single target damage where brightwizards are not something you can ignore. <Proof? SW are a bit weak atm, but it certainly is not due to their single target dps, on my shaman i worry ALOT more about them than about BW. For one after they give me their armordebuff thingy they hit me for pretty much full damage and they also have a double damage morale that usually gets me killed before i even get to detaunt them> A ranged dps class should fill the basic features of the class regardless of what class it is. Ranged dps being the simplest of the issues with everything else playing a factor. If ae damage is a major tactic in the game (which it is right now) then there should not be one class that dominates it, because it make the entire system reliant on that one class. Blizzard saw this in wow and fixed it. Time will tell what mythic does, because they seem to be throwing darts at a board right now. <The last thing Warhammer needs are more classes with AE abilities. Thats like saying we dont have enough CCs in the game. BWs/Sorcs got brought down plenty the last patches, they are pretty much inline with most other classes now imho. They will get further indirect nerfed by the secondary stat changes i 3.0 which will lower critdamage, besides that i play a magus and a squig herder, and neither sorcerii nor BWs make me feel useless. Infact BW are my primary prey and are about the easiest classes for me to kill>
As for what mythic will NEVER do, that is a very strong word. Keep in mind that mythic is introducing their first 6v6 scenario in the next patch. I suspect it is due to players running an informal version of it in the field and mythic realizing that people do like such things. How will it affect the way mythic balances things when reports start coming in of classes being overpowered or weak in these areas, who knows. <Classes are not balanced around 1on1, mythic is even reluctant to balance classes based on their mirror, the game was horribly unbalanced in the beginning, and in some areas it still is, but every class mythic looked at they fixed pretty good. Example being BWs/Sorc or currently the AM/Shaman which gets a complete overhaul> I do know that even though the game is team play based, all of those encounters in large warbands are nothing but many little 2v2 type skirmishes scattered amongst the zerg rush. Many times during the large fights it does boil down to the person you are attacking and what class you are (vusa versa). True in a sense, then again mythic doesnt balance according to the outcome of a small skirmish somewhere, but look at the bigger picture as the nerf of BW/Sorcs PBAOEs has shown. 1on1 or 2on2 RoF and PoS was fine, it only became a issue when 6 BWs or Sorcs where able to stop a whole WB or two from taking a keep. So it was fixed. Not because it was imbalanced vs Shadowarriors or Squigherders, or lead to slaughter in certain scenarios by abusing LoS. No it got changed because it messed with RvR.
Warhammer atm is imho still in phase where mainly bugfixing, performance and RvR issues are adressed. And im thinking mythic is a doing a good job at it, infact my only complaint is that they take too long to fix the things they fix. But i totally agree with what they fix. So yeah, i expect warhammer to be out of its problem phase in about 6 months, and yes that means im not satisfied with the current situation, but im seeing the progress they make and i still have more fun doing RvR in warhammer than i do with BGs in WoW. So im patient.
But dont get me wrong, if mythic gets complacent and stops fixing rvr and the classes and other bugs i will turn on them so fast your head will spin .
Does having 6 bright wizards make attacking a keep difficult as many people have been complaining about the ae damange? Now replace them with shadow warriors and you get a completely different result. Not that I think the game needs more ae, but that is the reality of where the game is. If tactics revolve around one classes ability then that class is superior to the other ranged dps who cannot fill that role.
I also play a shaman and I can flat out ignore a shadow warrior attacking me. They are a non threat that I can deal with when I get done doing my other duties and when that happens I will kill that shadow warrior. Bright wizards can be deadly and it is not safe to ignore them. Boom boom dead where that does not happen with the shadow warrior.
My point wasn't about magic dps vs physical, it doesn't matter how classes get their dps as long as they can fulfill thier role. Not having a tank is not the same comparison. A warband should have the flexibilty to create a group based on any class that can fill a role and have the same level of success. They should not be locked into looking for certain classes and overlooking other. That was a flaw wow addressed with their recent changes. Raids are not premium with a certain number of shadow priests and shamans. You can bring anything you like and still succeed. 30 some talent specs and they are all viable. Maybe not for pvp, but the new dual spec system will remove that problem.
I very much respect the way the devs talk about the games problems. They seem to have a keen eye on what needs to get fixed. Can they achieve it and make all the other fixes the game needs, I don't know, but they seem to know where to head.
Warhammer is at the stage where it is still retrofitting the game to make it work, because it is suffering the same effects that have hit so many other games that released before they were ready. There will be plenty of talk about how great the game will be in 6,12,18 months as is the same talk that surrounds every other game in this situation and has never recovered.
Barring a major content change or game redesign these patches are just plugging holes in the game and there is no guarentee that the game will ever reach its potential.
Does having 6 bright wizards make attacking a keep difficult as many people have been complaining about the ae damange? Now replace them with shadow warriors and you get a completely different result. Not that I think the game needs more ae, but that is the reality of where the game is. If tactics revolve around one classes ability then that class is superior to the other ranged dps who cannot fill that role. I also play a shaman and I can flat out ignore a shadow warrior attacking me. They are a non threat that I can deal with when I get done doing my other duties and when that happens I will kill that shadow warrior. Bright wizards can be deadly and it is not safe to ignore them. Boom boom dead where that does not happen with the shadow warrior. My point wasn't about magic dps vs physical, it doesn't matter how classes get their dps as long as they can fulfill thier role. Not having a tank is not the same comparison. A warband should have the flexibilty to create a group based on any class that can fill a role and have the same level of success. They should not be locked into looking for certain classes and overlooking other. That was a flaw wow addressed with their recent changes. Raids are not premium with a certain number of shadow priests and shamans. You can bring anything you like and still succeed. 30 some talent specs and they are all viable. Maybe not for pvp, but the new dual spec system will remove that problem.
I very much respect the way the devs talk about the games problems. They seem to have a keen eye on what needs to get fixed. Can they achieve it and make all the other fixes the game needs, I don't know, but they seem to know where to head. Warhammer is at the stage where it is still retrofitting the game to make it work, because it is suffering the same effects that have hit so many other games that released before they were ready. There will be plenty of talk about how great the game will be in 6,12,18 months as is the same talk that surrounds every other game in this situation and has never recovered. Barring a major content change or game redesign these patches are just plugging holes in the game and there is no guarentee that the game will ever reach its potential.
Hmm maybe we just have to agree to disagree. I simply dont see SW and BW as sharing the same role just because both are primarily range. The SW warrior is primarily single target whereas the BW is AE + single target. The SW has also a full tree dedicated to melee and another especially to shooting while moving, and lets not even mention the SW can switch to the armorclass of a mdps by changing a stance.
On the whole you cant really compare the classes at all imho, just like you cant compare a WH to a slayer. Ofc you can argue that a single target class contributes less than a AOE class in a keep situation, but thats hardly a problem of the SW alone.
Maybe the SW is really that much worse off than a SH(in only play destruction) and cant fullfill its role at all, but as a SH i fullfill my role just fine, which imho is killing squishies like BW, AM, RP or WH. I know the BWs damage can seem imposing but i dont think they actually do more damage than me on those soft targets, reason being they more often than not have to get through alot more resistances than i have through armor. And i have alot more survivability than they do. Just by comparing the the first trees of SWs and BWs i would have to say the SW seems to have the better tools to take out squishies by far. Higher damage skills(BWs are not always at full combustion, and even then its not that much difference), and a easily accessible perma -50% heal in the third tree.
As long as EA controls / owns Mythic, Mythic will have one hand tied behind it's back.
No Development Studio can be owned by a "Master" and turn out quality work. The "Master" just wants the Devs to "Throw the Switch!"
Now as to what Mythic did wrong, I don't know the game BUT even an imbicile like me can figure out that having only two opposing Factions in RvR was a mistake. Good RvR in any game will always have at LEAST three Factions....an insight that most Development Teams just don't get.
Now after reading some of the above posts it seems like there is plenty of blame to go around. I admit I was so looking forward to Warhammer due to my time spent in DAoC. When I reviewed WAR's features prior to release I already knew that had not gone far enough in the right direction.
My sympathies to the Players that invested their hopes in this game. Perhaps some of you Players of WAR are enjoying the game and if so than I am glad.
Comments
Oh here we go with another "let's blame the big bad publisher" post.I mean all EA really did was make it possible for you guys to play the game I assume you all loved to play in it's earlier forms.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I put the important part in bold. Can i level in doac through pvp? Last i checked not. Can you queue szenarios from everywhere in the world while doing other stuff? Nope. Do i even have over a dozen different szenarios? nope. And as you said, most people who played, as in they are not playing anymore, that game is as deserted as it gets in the lower brackets(european servers).
Mythic has to balance RvR, everything else takes a backseat. Blizzard tries to balance 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 Arenas, raid content, BG content and sometimes it seems even 1on1s.
The main difference is, in war it only matters that 3 order WBs should be about as strong as 3 Destro WBs. A SH doesnt have to be balanced 1on1 vs a WL for RvR to work, you dont even need to balance RDPS vs RDPS cause it might even out at some other place(mdps, tanks or healers). In wow you have the whole esports community breathing down your neck demanding fair fights and equal chances. If a retpaladin can buff refreshment to the raid a frost mage should be able to do it too ... just because.
And yes they do mess up the classes every few patches, just read the last patchnotes. Just look at what they did with the paladin, shaman, druid, warlock or warrior in the past. And their last coup, equalizing all the classes. Tell me is there any class left that isnt a valid dps class? Any healer that cant mainheal? Any class with a taunt that cant maintank? Then take a look at where it all startet and tell me they didnt totally mess up their own vision of the game. They even startet normalizing the gear, palas, DKs and warriors all wear the same armor for dps or tanking for example. Healers and Magic dps wear the same items. No longer a differention between magical and physical crit/hit/speed rating. Most of that within a few major patches from each other. Thats not even touching on the balance changes to the classes themselves.
But you are right, without the rvr warhammer would be dead, and it lost the players it did loose due to not meeting the expectations of most people. And im ranting, cause blizzard makes me angry with their constant changes to things that didnt need changing.
RIP Druid tank.
Edit: When you cancel your WoW sub, and choose pvp as reason, there shows up a text stating that pvp is the heart and mainfocus of the game and they continously try to improve it yadda yadda. When did that happen?
The point where a lot, or actually probably even most people who played Daoc disagree with you.
I put the important part in bold. Can i level in doac through pvp? Last i checked not. Can you queue szenarios from everywhere in the world while doing other stuff? Nope. Do i even have over a dozen different szenarios? nope. And as you said, most people who played, as in they are not playing anymore, that game is as deserted as it gets in the lower brackets(european servers).
You're the one who said none of them had pvp as fleshed out as WAR did which seemed to be disconnected from your "now" argument and which I'm sure most those daoc folks would disagree with as well.
Ok though, I get it, "It's the lesser of x evils" is your argument then. If that works for you. Problem is many people don't agree, especially the ones who were expecting something at least similar or better to Daoc in PvP (more options such as levelling through PvP does not mean the PvP experience is better) or the PvE (or combo at least) better than WoW which a lot find it isn't are the problem.
Most of it's gonna depend on how many decide to call it "good enough" and agree with the direction Mythic takes it.
Game's back in the top 20 right now (16 I believe) so it probably picked up a little (albeit there's hardly any competition of new games at the moment), probably the trials doing some good. Still leaves their main problem, retention. As the 750k+ -> 300k+ dip has shown them that's not good for them. If that many of the trials end up quitting as well they really will need to keep bringing in increased numbers of trial-> subs.
Mythic doesn't need to balance anything outside of rvr, because honestly the rest of the game is bland and uninspiring. It just doens't have any teeth to it. Blizzard has a lot more to balance, because honestly all aspects of their game works. It is the best balanced game for pvp/pve on the market. Not perfect and honestly it never will be, but they do far better than anyone else does. The weakest spot is the areana, because it highlights class verse class combat and not team based combat (which you may not realize wow is also a team based game). It is hard to balance 1 vs 1 combat and still maintain balance in large scale encounters. The arena/esport just highlights that flaw. You will see that same thing happening when mythic starts introducing 6v6 combat arenas. Some formula of classes will rise to the top while the rest fall off the charts. Watch and see.
It doesn't revolve around how one class stacks up against another class in one on one combat. Blizzards current approach is far superior to what you point out above as ruined gameplay. Any tank can do the job of tanking, same with healers, same with dps. That is balance. If a class is categorized as filling a role, then it should be able to fullfil that position and not send people looking for viable alternatives.
When you get a large warband, is it going to be balanced regardless of what classes fill it up? Not currently. Can you remove all the brightwizards and replace them with shadow warriors and your group still have the same level of effectiveness? No, classes need balance in the roles they are designed for. Just because you can tuck a handful of classes that underpeform into a large group doesn't mean that is a winning formula for balance. Players will eventually find out what classes suck and start to exclude them in favor of classes that perform their roles better, even moreso for classes that are "overpowered" in their roles. That is assuming there is enough population for warbands to pick/choose who they invite.
P.S. Whats wrong with druid tanks? They are still just as awesome as they were.
Mythics fault.
Its clear that MJ and PB thought they had a killer product on their hands what with all the bragging and boasting interviews at release. "We have an office bet about subscriptions. Ive bet a million subs in the first year" Said barnett. Im guessing Paul lost his $20.
I liked it when Jacobs almost had a mental breakdown because Tigole made some (actually quite accurate) comments about warhammer. He was all over VNboards with fanbois trying to calm him down "Mark, its not worth it!" whilst Jacobs was trash talking about how he couldnt just remain silent. It was pretty much the writing on the wall even back then. They tried to create wow lite with emphasis on pvp, but failed on almost every aspect. Jacobs constant "if you dont like my news, im taking my ball home" and accusations of 'trolling' because he doesnt want to hear the truth didnt help the games image much.
WAR failed in one respect, PvP had no real gain or loss, that being said it was STILL better then WoWackness.
Then again games after UO and Everquest have let me down over all lol.
LoL, sorry, but WoW has a wayyyyy higher skill cap than WAR, WoW is a way better PvP game than WAR. The only thing that keeps WoW from being a highly competitive game is how god awful its RNG is, and that was mostly Blizzard's idea to give novice players (noobs) a fighting chance against players with higher skills. Which funny enough is also what's keeping the classes balanced enough to be bearable to compete...lol
A game easy enough for noobs but yet complex enough to keep more seasoned players interested, what Blizzard likes to refer to the donut design.
Anyways, to recap, WAR failed because it took the donut design of WoW and decided to remove the inner circle...simple as that.
WoW's pvp better than WAR?
OP's credibility gone in the first few pages, obviously a troll thread.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
Again i disagree. Even long before warhammer was released and disappointed many, we still knew that there would be no balancing for pve or 1on1 at the cost of RvR. Blizzard changed their priorities around alot, in the beginning they blanced for pve, then came diminishing returns and they balanced for pvp, soon after alliance got shamans and horde paladins which was again for balance reasons. Now we are at the point that the game is balanced around arena and raidcontent by equalizing classes. Sure its convinient if you dont need a ret paladin for a mana refreshment buff to your whole raid, just take a frost mage instead. Also who needs mages for AOE, a rogue can AOE too. It just feels to me as if there is sacrificed to much just to archive what seems like balance, but it isnt balance, i feel that every time i try to join a BG on warlock or balance druid. Everyone can dps equal, but some of us are glascannons while others wear plate, have invulnurabiltiy shields and have tools especially made to counter us. Rock/paper/scissors systems require classes to be different, not equal. There should be a price a ret paladin/dk/warrior pays for his survivability and burst damage, i dont see it(and yes i also have a paladin, and yes i pwn with him).
And no, outside of 5vs5 arena wow is not a team based pvp game. Most people in scenarios run around like headless chicken doing their own thing, and it works fine. There is no plan, no real synergy. There are just strong classes and weak classes, if you take two strong classes they are always better than a combination that includes a weak class. Thats why i linked the arena site that shows that paladin + DK is the most faviorite 2on2 combo by >50% in a previous post. Cause paladins are strong, DKs are strong = win.
I admit that is the same in war. There are also strong combinations(tank+melee healer f.e.), the difference is that in war there is basicly no situation where the outcome of a 2on2 has any significance, its meaningless like the duels in wow. It wont decide a keep battle, and likely not even a scenario. Even though i play a comperatively weak class(magus), that would totally get destroyed in any kind of 2on2 with said classes, im still a valuable class in large scale rvr.
And yes if mythic ever includes 6vs6 arenas there will be strong combinations and weaker. But warhammer will never focus on esport, and mythic will never trash classes because of those arenas cause i simply cant see them becoming anything important. Keepbattles, zonetakes, razing the enemy capital are the important stuff and the game will likely be balanced according to that(all posts of mythic persons lead me to believe that).
Druid tanks got neutered with the last patch. Oh not the highend raiding ferals, if you have t7.5 equip its hardly even a nerf i heard others report. But those of us who dont have high end equip are in deep trouble, my guild just startet running naxx, and suddenly our druid tank cant tank the bosses he did before. So what are we supposed to do? Throw him out of the raid and get another tanking class? Not gonna happen as we are a casual guild, but wiping with him on bosses we did fine before is not fun either, he takes it even worse than the rest of us cause he feels he is letting us down due to no fault of his own.
P.S.: No you cant replace BW with SW. Because they dont fill the same role. One is a physical rdps with melee capabilities thats intended to take out squishies(like healers or sorcs), the other is magical rdps that excels at AOE and taking out heavily armored targets. But you can exchange WL for slayers, SMs for IBs or SW for Engineer cause depending on how they are skill they share the same role. Obviosly there are situations where a certain role is more important than another, then again that is the way it is for a game with set objectives like keeptakes.
Wow is not balanced around arenas. Blizzard tries to keep arenas, as well as everything else, in mind while making the game, but it is primarily a pve game with group pvp balancing. That is why you see such wild swings in arena power pairings.
As for my brightwizard example there is no difference between physical and magic ranged dps, they are both ranged dps classes. If your warbands need the ae of brightwizards and you don't have brightwizards in large supply you are screwed. There is little in the way of balance between ranged dps classes. My point was also that shadow warriors are laughable in single target damage where brightwizards are not something you can ignore. A ranged dps class should fill the basic features of the class regardless of what class it is. Ranged dps being the simplest of the issues with everything else playing a factor. If ae damage is a major tactic in the game (which it is right now) then there should not be one class that dominates it, because it make the entire system reliant on that one class. Blizzard saw this in wow and fixed it. Time will tell what mythic does, because they seem to be throwing darts at a board right now.
As for what mythic will NEVER do, that is a very strong word. Keep in mind that mythic is introducing their first 6v6 scenario in the next patch. I suspect it is due to players running an informal version of it in the field and mythic realizing that people do like such things. How will it affect the way mythic balances things when reports start coming in of classes being overpowered or weak in these areas, who knows. I do know that even though the game is team play based, all of those encounters in large warbands are nothing but many little 2v2 type skirmishes scattered amongst the zerg rush. Many times during the large fights it does boil down to the person you are attacking and what class you are (vusa versa)
Warhammer atm is imho still in phase where mainly bugfixing, performance and RvR issues are adressed. And im thinking mythic is a doing a good job at it, infact my only complaint is that they take too long to fix the things they fix. But i totally agree with what they fix. So yeah, i expect warhammer to be out of its problem phase in about 6 months, and yes that means im not satisfied with the current situation, but im seeing the progress they make and i still have more fun doing RvR in warhammer than i do with BGs in WoW. So im patient.
But dont get me wrong, if mythic gets complacent and stops fixing rvr and the classes and other bugs i will turn on them so fast your head will spin
.
Does having 6 bright wizards make attacking a keep difficult as many people have been complaining about the ae damange? Now replace them with shadow warriors and you get a completely different result. Not that I think the game needs more ae, but that is the reality of where the game is. If tactics revolve around one classes ability then that class is superior to the other ranged dps who cannot fill that role.
I also play a shaman and I can flat out ignore a shadow warrior attacking me. They are a non threat that I can deal with when I get done doing my other duties and when that happens I will kill that shadow warrior. Bright wizards can be deadly and it is not safe to ignore them. Boom boom dead where that does not happen with the shadow warrior.
My point wasn't about magic dps vs physical, it doesn't matter how classes get their dps as long as they can fulfill thier role. Not having a tank is not the same comparison. A warband should have the flexibilty to create a group based on any class that can fill a role and have the same level of success. They should not be locked into looking for certain classes and overlooking other. That was a flaw wow addressed with their recent changes. Raids are not premium with a certain number of shadow priests and shamans. You can bring anything you like and still succeed. 30 some talent specs and they are all viable. Maybe not for pvp, but the new dual spec system will remove that problem.
I very much respect the way the devs talk about the games problems. They seem to have a keen eye on what needs to get fixed. Can they achieve it and make all the other fixes the game needs, I don't know, but they seem to know where to head.
Warhammer is at the stage where it is still retrofitting the game to make it work, because it is suffering the same effects that have hit so many other games that released before they were ready. There will be plenty of talk about how great the game will be in 6,12,18 months as is the same talk that surrounds every other game in this situation and has never recovered.
Barring a major content change or game redesign these patches are just plugging holes in the game and there is no guarentee that the game will ever reach its potential.
Hmm maybe we just have to agree to disagree. I simply dont see SW and BW as sharing the same role just because both are primarily range. The SW warrior is primarily single target whereas the BW is AE + single target. The SW has also a full tree dedicated to melee and another especially to shooting while moving, and lets not even mention the SW can switch to the armorclass of a mdps by changing a stance.
On the whole you cant really compare the classes at all imho, just like you cant compare a WH to a slayer. Ofc you can argue that a single target class contributes less than a AOE class in a keep situation, but thats hardly a problem of the SW alone.
Maybe the SW is really that much worse off than a SH(in only play destruction) and cant fullfill its role at all, but as a SH i fullfill my role just fine, which imho is killing squishies like BW, AM, RP or WH. I know the BWs damage can seem imposing but i dont think they actually do more damage than me on those soft targets, reason being they more often than not have to get through alot more resistances than i have through armor. And i have alot more survivability than they do. Just by comparing the the first trees of SWs and BWs i would have to say the SW seems to have the better tools to take out squishies by far. Higher damage skills(BWs are not always at full combustion, and even then its not that much difference), and a easily accessible perma -50% heal in the third tree.
As long as EA controls / owns Mythic, Mythic will have one hand tied behind it's back.
No Development Studio can be owned by a "Master" and turn out quality work. The "Master" just wants the Devs to "Throw the Switch!"
Now as to what Mythic did wrong, I don't know the game BUT even an imbicile like me can figure out that having only two opposing Factions in RvR was a mistake. Good RvR in any game will always have at LEAST three Factions....an insight that most Development Teams just don't get.
Now after reading some of the above posts it seems like there is plenty of blame to go around. I admit I was so looking forward to Warhammer due to my time spent in DAoC. When I reviewed WAR's features prior to release I already knew that had not gone far enough in the right direction.
My sympathies to the Players that invested their hopes in this game. Perhaps some of you Players of WAR are enjoying the game and if so than I am glad.