FC-FamineFuncom Community ManagerMemberUncommonPosts: 278
Originally posted by NotUsedBrain
Originally posted by FC-Famine
I'm not seeing how this is broken other than merely being just opinion. I'm not saying you're right or wrong here but I'm not seeing eye-to-eye on that one.
Hello Famine,
Thanks for response and I'm sorry there is so much flame in this topic.
I'm not sure what you mean by "eye-to-eye" but than again my English could use lots of improvement.
You have made a comment about being car machanic a not seeing anything broken so I will try to explain a bit further:
Lets say you have a mp3 player and you put 10 tracks on it, various kind of music, it plays nice and smoothly and all is good but when you load a playlist of 48 tracks on it you are only able to listen to rock music because house and hip-hop tracks start to be skipped and distorted with lots of backround noise that makes it worthless to listen. So yes it works but only if you limit your music to one kind. What would you do? I'm certainly not happy with mp3 player that is advertised to hold and play hundreds of songs but in reality your experience will be limited to only rock music because rest is unbearable. Most people will go to shop and ask for warrant exchange, refund or buy a new player. Hope you see my point.
Heya,
The point I was making is that it's not considered a bug. The example you gave me with the MP3 player is not the intention of the design of mp3 player if in fact the mp3 player is the cause of the skipping. The examples given, if they were bugs, are not because of the siege system. Though they are not bugs minus the playfield crashing, it's looked at as a concern with other systems like the class system.
How players utilize combat with the different types of class combos for groups has nothing to do with sieges being broke. The intention of the design is to encourage group on group gameplay and not limiting specific classes from forming. Otherwise you can say every dungeon in the game is broken because X group can complete it faster than Y group.
The final point to make here is that I don't see where there is a bug here. This is why I made the comment on not seeing eye-to-eye with that notion. The concern that some groups may have a certain advantage over other groups however is a valid concern. What that means is that even though the siege system is not bugged (broken) in those examples you provided, we might have to look at the class system and how they utilize the encounter of sieging other targets. It may be within the intention of the design but based on feedback, we could look at it and see that X classes in Y groups would need some class tweaking and not siege tweaking.
Hope this better explains it a little more. I'm not trying to shoot down that your points are less valuable to us. I just wanted to note that maybe you're looking in the wrong direction with the group examples you gave. We can still for sure look into how other systems react under different conditions that players cause but those are not because the system is broken. Broken refers to it not being within the intention of the design and I'm not seeing that here. It's like the ever struggle with balancing classes to where players want it. We will never reach a goal where every player is happy with balance and that does not mean classes are broken. It just means we might need to tweak it some more based on feedback just like yours.
Cheers!
Glen ''Famine'' Swan Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
I agree that class balances never will be perfect and some set up of groups will have advantage against other but as it is now casters not only have their advantage due to being overpowered but because if there is 40+ casters in siege the game becomes lagfest with 4000+ ping. If there is a siege with few casters and most melee there is no problem with latency and performance but with only casters being in siege, there come latency spikes which make sieges unplayable. People don't use casters only because there have better AoE dmg abilities but because many casters = unplayable for the other side and in this way system is broken. Maybe broken is a wrong word but I hope you know what I mean.
There is nothing wrong in using certain classes to get an advantage but there is huge flaw in the system when those classes make siege uplayable not because of skills of their dispossal but because server lag they introduce.
The bug is that those classes make it impossible for other classes to particpate on same basis. It's like if you bring to the dungeon only class X bosses in the dungeon cannot use their abilities.
I believe it's not intention in design to make melee classes unplayable and they are when latency is sky high.
I agree that class balances never will be perfect and some set up of groups will have advantage against other but as it is now casters not only have their advantage due to being overpowered but because if there is 40+ casters in siege the game becomes lagfest with 4000+ ping. If there is a siege with few casters and most melee there is no problem with latency and performance but with only casters being in siege, there come latency spikes which make sieges unplayable. People don't use casters only because there have better AoE dmg abilities but because many casters = unplayable for the other side and in this way system is broken. Maybe broken is a wrong word but I hope you know what I mean. There is nothing wrong in using certain classes to get an advantage but there is huge flaw in the system when those classes make siege uplayable not because of skills of their dispossal but because server lag they introduce. The bug is that those classes make it impossible for other classes to particpate on same basis. It's like if you bring to the dungeon only class X bosses in the dungeon cannot use their abilities. I believe it's not intention in design to make melee classes unplayable and they are when latency is sky high.
But then again, Sieging is then not broken, as so many trolls keep spouting here on the forums.
The CORE problem in Sieges today and in PVP in general is that casters are just OP. Period. And this has been since launch.
It's basically the same problem in Warhammer Online, where sertain caster classes are OP too and so also most played.
In a lot of RvR I took part in it was also one big lagfest with continious disconnects due to too many casters spamming their CC's and AoE nukes.
So again, it's a class balance issue. Not Sieges being broken.
Because when casters in Age of Conan aren't so darn OP anymore, then people will start rolling other classes too. Instead of 70-80% of the playerbase (especially on PVP servers) rolling casters like it is now.
I know plenty of people that just rerolled a Demo, Necro, HoX or ToS themselves, because they got fed up being a powerless PVP level farm object for casters.
I still play my Guardian, as it's a fun class in PVE still... and the fact that I just hate playing a mage. But the result is that I hardly ever PVP because of what I mentioned above. And that sucks. Because I like PVP too.
As you can see, lots of players are identifying the lag created by having lots of casters in sieging as the main problem preventing sieges from being a smooth experience.
Is this problem being considered by Funcom and what is being done to address this issue?
Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions and participate on these forums.
Whatever you guys want point the finger at or defend AoC from this pointed fingers, one thing is the sad reality.
"Your" game dont got a future, most ppl dont got pc for DX10 and if thats main reason to play a game, i rather go outside on my car and have a picnick somewhere in the woods and voila. Landscape and graphcis quality in very important in a game but maybe not that important, and this devs focus in making shiny graphics but forget completly about the game itself wich sucks balls.. look at wow, graphics made to run on every piece of shit computer but ppl play it.
Now, AoC and trialists. Thats a HUGE joke, last time i tried AoC i went into a trial and went to a pvp server (now imagine i never played aoc before)... "awsome graphs and cool classes YEH!!!"... i put my feet in white sands and 5 seconds after i was beeing spawn camped over and over. The most ridiculous shit i ever saw in any mmo tbh. A guy that comes trial, go get the feeling of the game, and his 1st experience is the spawn spots camp? LOL rly.. wtf you expect from trialists? That little detail, of the very 1st pvp experience in aoc beeing the complete shit by the very 1st seconds of experience it?
DO YOU GUYS RLY THINK THIS GAME IS GOING ANYWHERE?
Game is shit cause was designed by ppl that thinks they know whats an mmo and what ppl like. PPL LIKE WORKING GAMES! with no retarded pvp experience after the 1st 10 seconds of experience it.
GL with your game fanboys or wow haters... after one year, aoc forum is only made of QQ, game should have this shoudl have thatr, this should work, this shouldnt crash, that shouldnt lag etc etc etc
Is doomed to be played by 50k fanboys and by trialists that will never play the game unless they are new in mmo industry and never experienced anything better.
I prefer playing LOTR 1000000000 times and if i want pvp i just play an fps game and thats it.
I'm not seeing how this is broken other than merely being just opinion. I'm not saying you're right or wrong here but I'm not seeing eye-to-eye on that one.
Hello Famine,
Thanks for response and I'm sorry there is so much flame in this topic.
I'm not sure what you mean by "eye-to-eye" but than again my English could use lots of improvement.
You have made a comment about being car machanic a not seeing anything broken so I will try to explain a bit further:
Lets say you have a mp3 player and you put 10 tracks on it, various kind of music, it plays nice and smoothly and all is good but when you load a playlist of 48 tracks on it you are only able to listen to rock music because house and hip-hop tracks start to be skipped and distorted with lots of backround noise that makes it worthless to listen. So yes it works but only if you limit your music to one kind. What would you do? I'm certainly not happy with mp3 player that is advertised to hold and play hundreds of songs but in reality your experience will be limited to only rock music because rest is unbearable. Most people will go to shop and ask for warrant exchange, refund or buy a new player. Hope you see my point.
Heya,
The point I was making is that it's not considered a bug. The example you gave me with the MP3 player is not the intention of the design of mp3 player if in fact the mp3 player is the cause of the skipping. The examples given, if they were bugs, are not because of the siege system. Though they are not bugs minus the playfield crashing, it's looked at as a concern with other systems like the class system.
How players utilize combat with the different types of class combos for groups has nothing to do with sieges being broke. The intention of the design is to encourage group on group gameplay and not limiting specific classes from forming. Otherwise you can say every dungeon in the game is broken because X group can complete it faster than Y group.
The final point to make here is that I don't see where there is a bug here. This is why I made the comment on not seeing eye-to-eye with that notion. The concern that some groups may have a certain advantage over other groups however is a valid concern. What that means is that even though the siege system is not bugged (broken) in those examples you provided, we might have to look at the class system and how they utilize the encounter of sieging other targets. It may be within the intention of the design but based on feedback, we could look at it and see that X classes in Y groups would need some class tweaking and not siege tweaking.
Hope this better explains it a little more. I'm not trying to shoot down that your points are less valuable to us. I just wanted to note that maybe you're looking in the wrong direction with the group examples you gave. We can still for sure look into how other systems react under different conditions that players cause but those are not because the system is broken. Broken refers to it not being within the intention of the design and I'm not seeing that here. It's like the ever struggle with balancing classes to where players want it. We will never reach a goal where every player is happy with balance and that does not mean classes are broken. It just means we might need to tweak it some more based on feedback just like yours.
Cheers!
System broken = not playable, but this dont mean just by technnical issues, it can be by different reasons like melees are useless in sieges, for every single melee the sieges are broken because 1.- lag fest provoked by casters 2.- impossible to do nothing or reach any enemy 3.- Ppl just dont want u in sieges because u are useless, everyone knows it...
Caster`s philosophy of AOC is the biggest fail that the game have in every single way, this is the root problem of many other problems.
Seems like u are trying to fix all but the main problem that is that u have half comunity playing WoW with better graphics aka casters and the other half playing hard mode and getting frustrated by this huge difference of skill needed and play style.
The game seems to be designed around melee but casters are just ruining it all because they are easyer to play, easyer to win with and the only class usefull in sieges.
U have a healing system based on HOTs most of them around the healer or in front of so when a melee charges is basically alone because heals get out of range, with HOTs u cant keep a melee in a big fight, the higest DPS and bigest AOE are made by casters so in big battles melees are easy and instakill, they just cant stand this DPS and healers cant sustain them at all.
Melees just have not any advantage upon casters, no more dps, no more cc, no long distance not all, they are just worse, period.
Age of conan is now really Age of casters and this is the main thing that is going to ruin this game.
Famine, As you can see, lots of players are identifying the lag created by having lots of casters in sieging as the main problem preventing sieges from being a smooth experience. Is this problem being considered by Funcom and what is being done to address this issue?
Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions and participate on these forums. Cheers.
Reading Famine's responses, it would seem to me that there are no problems with sieges. The problem is players who only THINK there is a problem with sieges, when in fact there isn't. Apparently sieges are working as intended and are not broken or anything. I repeat: sieges are NOT broken. Only thing that is broken is players minds, if they think sieges are not working or should be different, like fun or something.
Reading Famine's responses, it would seem to me that there are no problems with sieges. The problem is players who only THINK there is a problem with sieges, when in fact there isn't. Apparently sieges are working as intended and are not broken or anything. I repeat: sieges are NOT broken. Only thing that is broken is players minds, if they think sieges are not working or should be different, like fun or something.
Obviously you havent spent a lot of time around developers. If they make a software that says that 1+1=3 and when you then enter 1+1 and it shows 3, any non techie would say that its broke. While the developer would say that its designed that way. i.e. not broken.
So read between Famines lines. I see someone telling that they are working on siges to make them better since they have received a lot of negative feedback. A lot of people feel that 1+1 should be 2. I dont see any admisson of error, since its working as designed. And btw GIveMePvp. Relax on your critzism, i am looking forward to you becoming bored and running off to play the game you ejoy.
Originally posted by BishopB:
Are a lot of the trolls just angry kids with old gaming hardware?
FC-FamineFuncom Community ManagerMemberUncommonPosts: 278
Originally posted by abal
Famine,
As you can see, lots of players are identifying the lag created by having lots of casters in sieging as the main problem preventing sieges from being a smooth experience. Is this problem being considered by Funcom and what is being done to address this issue?
Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions and participate on these forums.
Cheers.
Yes, we have seen this happen a few times and it's something we have looked to resolve with the number of performance tweaks to that playfield. We will continue to do so as we track logs from any type of crash as well any hangs.
Originally posted by abal
Reading Famine's responses, it would seem to me that there are no problems with sieges. The problem is players who only THINK there is a problem with sieges, when in fact there isn't. Apparently sieges are working as intended and are not broken or anything. I repeat: sieges are NOT broken. Only thing that is broken is players minds, if they think sieges are not working or should be different, like fun or something.
Nope not at all and I don't know why you would pick that out when we are talking about specific issues with sieges mentioned in the original post of the thread.
There are problems with the siege system that we are resolving with Update 5. I am no way saying they are perfect! I don't think there is a system that can be perfect in any game because spotting every bug or issue is a uphill battle.
Glen ''Famine'' Swan Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
As you can see, lots of players are identifying the lag created by having lots of casters in sieging as the main problem preventing sieges from being a smooth experience. Is this problem being considered by Funcom and what is being done to address this issue?
Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions and participate on these forums.
Cheers.
Yes, we have seen this happen a few times and it's something we have looked to resolve with the number of performance tweaks to that playfield. We will continue to do so as we track logs from any type of crash as well any hangs.
Originally posted by abal
Reading Famine's responses, it would seem to me that there are no problems with sieges. The problem is players who only THINK there is a problem with sieges, when in fact there isn't. Apparently sieges are working as intended and are not broken or anything. I repeat: sieges are NOT broken. Only thing that is broken is players minds, if they think sieges are not working or should be different, like fun or something.
Nope not at all and I don't know why you would pick that out when we are talking about specific issues with sieges mentioned in the original post of the thread.
[Mod Edit] There are problems with the siege system that we are resolving with Update 5. I am no way saying they are perfect! I don't think there is a system that can be perfect in any game because spotting every bug or issue is a uphill battle.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I just wanted to clarify that the second quote you used, wasn't mine, somehow you deleted the original poster which was replying to my post.
The following:
Reading Famine's responses, it would seem to me that there are no problems with sieges. The problem is players who only THINK there is a problem with sieges, when in fact there isn't. Apparently sieges are working as intended and are not broken or anything. I repeat: sieges are NOT broken. Only thing that is broken is players minds, if they think sieges are not working or should be different, like fun or something.
"You think it's a coincidence that most of these "diehard AoC fans" are from Oslo, Norway? YOU for example are from Oslo, Norway, and a quick look in your post history reveals that all you do is keep telling how great AoC is and how everyone should resubscribe. That's all you do. EVERY freaking day. Now why is that?"
Pwned!!
Ik ben een Nederlander en heb m'n hele leven in Nederland gewoond.
Ik ben vorig jaar naar Oslo, Noorwegen verhuisd omdat ik een Noorse vriendin heb.
--------- Go look that up on the google translator.
And maybe you should dig a bit deeper in my post history, then just the last two weeks. I was on the FC hate squad just as much as everyone else last year!
There is nothing to be Pwned! I keep that to the 12 year old kiddies with too much self esteem.
Cheers
attcking the person instead of the idea is the last ressort of someone who just lost an argument. so i dont think you should care about what those guys are saying, its not only false, it is out of the subject.
FC-FamineFuncom Community ManagerMemberUncommonPosts: 278
Ahh sorry about that Abal. Quote functions here are kind of screwy.
Glen ''Famine'' Swan Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
For a quick summary who i am before putting in my 2 cents:
Character: Brudi, Anaxamada Brudi (rp profile)
Class: Conqueror
Lvl: 80
Time played: Since Launch
Guilds: SOTL, Exophagy, Vengence of Fang, ORDER
Server: Cimmeria
Last thing before i continue, if you feel the urge to think this is a virial marketer who just happened to hijack my account and post
nothing but glorious positive feedback, please check yourself to the nearest park and take a nice walk, feed some ducks, or play checkers.
Assessment towards Melee vs. Casters:
There is no hiding that since launch, Melee has always had a difficult time against Casters. The Hard Cold truth about Fighting Casters with melee is boiled down to this: you are either good, or your not.. period
you can argue with that statement until your blue in the face, but it has been proven all the way up until now. Ultimately, yes a Caster that knows the ins and outs of melee, or has a average to decent knowledge of what a Caster can do, will always have a higher advantage against Melee types. When i speak of advantage, i am not implying that every victory will go to them, only that their execution of CC's against melee classes will always give soldiers and rogue types a hell of a hard time to take them down.
Secondly, Not all melee types play the same, Assassins, Barbs, Hox's have a strong ability of trashing casters if
1. they get the jump on them first (given)
2. Casters do not pace their CC's correctly ,they are dead due to the other classes, high dps rate, and their cc's that are just as dangerous
Casters aside from their long 8 second cc's (each) (Demo, Necro) or passive lean back and take a piss Storm field (TOS, ability that crits anything from a 1 hit kill or 3000 crit every few seconds)... aside of their other abilities, When they are in trouble, they ALSO have a pool of unused stamina , added with 30 percent extra run speed, to out run any melee that happen to chase them down, doing so until the cc immunity time goes up so they can cc lock their opponent unto submission.
Can Casters IN GENERAL be beaten, yes, for one, not all casters play the same or can perform the same as others.
the balance to this day has been placed on their favor for the sake of their survivability, but they can be taken down if you know your class.
know your class, and the classes that you have trouble fighting. again, argue with me until the sun goes down-- you might even amuse me, and that is coming from a person that is playing one of the most hardest classes in the game.
If you want reference material, there are some videos , and pvp videos of certain classes dealing with others.
Assessment towards Sieges:
In Sieges, melee has been stuck in these two functions, move forward and disrupt, have casters handle the rest.
Melee is stuck with the fustrating and tiresome job of running to battle and trying to tangle up Casters from doing any big damage or having them use their cc's on you (or some one else) mainly to be forced to fall back.
Most of the pain and grief i notice is not so much of being killed by casters, but their uncanny ability of locking people down so much that their attendence in sieging has been nothing more than being farmed by the opposing team.
a couple of things to take into consideration.
1. Funcom has, and continue to place emphasis on that AOC is about group pvp, not solo pvp-- I myself strongly detest this decision, but still continue to play the game simply because there is nothing else out there that i find interesting (except perhaps Darkfall and SW TOR) so 30 out of 80 percent of the time you may be the one to take down 3 people in a violent blood bath, but the other 80, your team and yourself are supporting each other to get the job done, it took me months to get rid of my rambo mentality, and having that with a conq is dumb, period...but i wont go into that, So group centric pvp, not solo.
2. In sieges, The Enviornment matters, the high ground, the buildings around you, the distance, it matters, Casters sure know how to use it, melee can also do the same to a degree to have them Break line of sight. Yes, thats right, if you are too far, or your hiding around a building, Casters are forced to come to you or find another target, because they cannot constantly shoot their fireballs at you if your hiding around a building or tree away from their line of sight.
3. This goes back to knowing your class you are fighting, such as Knowing your Casters abilities. here is a example
for a necro: they have alot of ccs, one being freeze, which is perhaps one of the fastest cc's that can be activated (no chance of avoiding, fastest perhaps being the HOX's root which is 6 seconds) the Necro has a CC that is called unimaginative Terror. as a Conq if i am dealing with a Necro if they end up using Imaginative Terror (Fear CC) i have two options,
a. run away to keep a distance thus having them waste their cc
b. counter their CC with mine, with a knock back , or stun that is faster than theirs
both of these involve having AWARENESS!!!!!!.... of what your enemy is doing, you cannot just go in swinging on your opponent and expect them to just fall down at your mercy, forcing a caster to do something in your advantage makes me forced to fall back, thus ambandoning his/her comrades, yet, keep in mind of their line of sight, and the Rangers that pick them off.
And speaking of Rangers, Casters hate Rangers, they have a longer line of sight, and if Casters are in a disadvantage to try to run away, they are the ones screwed, but unfortunately they are tagged over to the caster group because they are not made for melee (controviersial b.s. debate for another time)
I will close this by saying this, This thread reminds me of 8 months ago, when there was another thread that funcom devs do not listen , added with the same folk harping about them not listening. the funcom devs did not listen when they introduced the gem nerf, the type of nerf that casters were screaming to the top of their lungs to get it fixed.
funcom devs did not listen with the combat upgrade, i hated this upgrade with a passion but sucked it up, because i understood that all this did was make a enormous gap between good melee and sub par melee fighters when fighting against Casters, the combat upgrade in essence was the best change overall to
1. shorten the gap so more melee fighters can be more competitive towards casters
2. have combos activate much more frequently , making fights more fluid and dynamic
But the funcom devs are not listening....hmmm
Then comes the patch 1.05, on the forums many are covering their eyes because the changes may..or may not be the End of AOC as we know it, let alone the End of AOC period. a risky patch many call it, because its introducing itemization, and stats, let alone drastic changes to each class to the point they will be played differently.
Casters are fearing the changes perhaps the most because for one, Tos Casters in masse have to own up to their easy mode spec (storm field) let alone being forced to change their play style all together; the majority are looking to reroll or cancel from word of mouth.
Funcom, putting in the dice to further reinforce group pvp, could perhaps making AOC a glorified guild wars with a subsciption, but if done right, which im hoping- it will put a end to the Age of Caster propaganda for a while, but at any rate, the Dev's do not listen; so what can they do?
simple, come to these forums, and weed out good posts from bad posts, and put a smile on their face no matter how ignorant some of the posts are. I myself question why FC-Famine continues to come here expecting the same results as before when it comes to "feedback" around here. maybe he gets paid to be a punching bag here, but its not often to see a dev / represenative hang around here for this long.
Thats about it, Now if you excuse me, i have a broken unfinished Siege to go and have fun in.
i don't see what your talking about OP. My server plays in sieges all the time and we don't get all the issues you speak of, even when its a full 100 players in the siege area.
Hundreds of people are complaining about lag, if there is no issue on your server it might be because it's better and all servers should be upgraded, you dont bring raids of 48 casters for sieges or server has low population.
There is a big talk here about casterts being overpowered but my point was that it's not classes balance but siege engine not being able to handle so many of them.
Classes balance putted aside siege are not working because you cant call working sth when most people have red latency indicators.
"You think it's a coincidence that most of these "diehard AoC fans" are from Oslo, Norway? YOU for example are from Oslo, Norway, and a quick look in your post history reveals that all you do is keep telling how great AoC is and how everyone should resubscribe. That's all you do. EVERY freaking day. Now why is that?"
Pwned!!
Ik ben een Nederlander en heb m'n hele leven in Nederland gewoond.
Ik ben vorig jaar naar Oslo, Noorwegen verhuisd omdat ik een Noorse vriendin heb.
--------- Go look that up on the google translator.
And maybe you should dig a bit deeper in my post history, then just the last two weeks. I was on the FC hate squad just as much as everyone else last year!
There is nothing to be Pwned! I keep that to the 12 year old kiddies with too much self esteem.
Cheers
attcking the person instead of the idea is the last ressort of someone who just lost an argument. so i dont think you should care about what those guys are saying, its not only false, it is out of the subject.
Very true once people start to attack posters with that type of argument's then they do know they have lost and they know they have nothing else to bring into the discussion. It's the same thing when having a discussion and the one you discuss with starts calling you stupid and attacking you rather then the thing that is being discussed, they are beaten and they know it, yet they try a last resort to get their points ahead.
Playing: Battlefield - Bad company (Xbox360) Arma2, DFO (PC) On my radar: TSW, MO MMO's played: SWG (pre cu/cu), WoW, AoC, WAR, DFO, Planetside MMO's that I have tested: Lotro, L2, Aion, Ryzom
Very true once people start to attack posters with that type of argument's then they do know they have lost and they know they have nothing else to bring into the discussion. It's the same thing when having a discussion and the one you discuss with starts calling you stupid and attacking you rather then the thing that is being discussed, they are beaten and they know it, yet they try a last resort to get their points ahead.
Very true once people start to attack posters with that type of argument's then they do know they have lost and they know they have nothing else to bring into the discussion. It's the same thing when having a discussion and the one you discuss with starts calling you stupid and attacking you rather then the thing that is being discussed, they are beaten and they know it, yet they try a last resort to get their points ahead.
5/10 for the effort
Playing: Battlefield - Bad company (Xbox360) Arma2, DFO (PC) On my radar: TSW, MO MMO's played: SWG (pre cu/cu), WoW, AoC, WAR, DFO, Planetside MMO's that I have tested: Lotro, L2, Aion, Ryzom
Comments
Hello Famine,
Thanks for response and I'm sorry there is so much flame in this topic.
I'm not sure what you mean by "eye-to-eye" but than again my English could use lots of improvement.
You have made a comment about being car machanic a not seeing anything broken so I will try to explain a bit further:
Lets say you have a mp3 player and you put 10 tracks on it, various kind of music, it plays nice and smoothly and all is good but when you load a playlist of 48 tracks on it you are only able to listen to rock music because house and hip-hop tracks start to be skipped and distorted with lots of backround noise that makes it worthless to listen. So yes it works but only if you limit your music to one kind. What would you do? I'm certainly not happy with mp3 player that is advertised to hold and play hundreds of songs but in reality your experience will be limited to only rock music because rest is unbearable. Most people will go to shop and ask for warrant exchange, refund or buy a new player. Hope you see my point.
Heya,
The point I was making is that it's not considered a bug. The example you gave me with the MP3 player is not the intention of the design of mp3 player if in fact the mp3 player is the cause of the skipping. The examples given, if they were bugs, are not because of the siege system. Though they are not bugs minus the playfield crashing, it's looked at as a concern with other systems like the class system.
How players utilize combat with the different types of class combos for groups has nothing to do with sieges being broke. The intention of the design is to encourage group on group gameplay and not limiting specific classes from forming. Otherwise you can say every dungeon in the game is broken because X group can complete it faster than Y group.
The final point to make here is that I don't see where there is a bug here. This is why I made the comment on not seeing eye-to-eye with that notion. The concern that some groups may have a certain advantage over other groups however is a valid concern. What that means is that even though the siege system is not bugged (broken) in those examples you provided, we might have to look at the class system and how they utilize the encounter of sieging other targets. It may be within the intention of the design but based on feedback, we could look at it and see that X classes in Y groups would need some class tweaking and not siege tweaking.
Hope this better explains it a little more. I'm not trying to shoot down that your points are less valuable to us. I just wanted to note that maybe you're looking in the wrong direction with the group examples you gave. We can still for sure look into how other systems react under different conditions that players cause but those are not because the system is broken. Broken refers to it not being within the intention of the design and I'm not seeing that here. It's like the ever struggle with balancing classes to where players want it. We will never reach a goal where every player is happy with balance and that does not mean classes are broken. It just means we might need to tweak it some more based on feedback just like yours.
Cheers!
Glen ''Famine'' Swan
Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
I agree that class balances never will be perfect and some set up of groups will have advantage against other but as it is now casters not only have their advantage due to being overpowered but because if there is 40+ casters in siege the game becomes lagfest with 4000+ ping. If there is a siege with few casters and most melee there is no problem with latency and performance but with only casters being in siege, there come latency spikes which make sieges unplayable. People don't use casters only because there have better AoE dmg abilities but because many casters = unplayable for the other side and in this way system is broken. Maybe broken is a wrong word but I hope you know what I mean.
There is nothing wrong in using certain classes to get an advantage but there is huge flaw in the system when those classes make siege uplayable not because of skills of their dispossal but because server lag they introduce.
The bug is that those classes make it impossible for other classes to particpate on same basis. It's like if you bring to the dungeon only class X bosses in the dungeon cannot use their abilities.
I believe it's not intention in design to make melee classes unplayable and they are when latency is sky high.
But then again, Sieging is then not broken, as so many trolls keep spouting here on the forums.
The CORE problem in Sieges today and in PVP in general is that casters are just OP. Period. And this has been since launch.
It's basically the same problem in Warhammer Online, where sertain caster classes are OP too and so also most played.
In a lot of RvR I took part in it was also one big lagfest with continious disconnects due to too many casters spamming their CC's and AoE nukes.
So again, it's a class balance issue. Not Sieges being broken.
Because when casters in Age of Conan aren't so darn OP anymore, then people will start rolling other classes too. Instead of 70-80% of the playerbase (especially on PVP servers) rolling casters like it is now.
I know plenty of people that just rerolled a Demo, Necro, HoX or ToS themselves, because they got fed up being a powerless PVP level farm object for casters.
I still play my Guardian, as it's a fun class in PVE still... and the fact that I just hate playing a mage. But the result is that I hardly ever PVP because of what I mentioned above. And that sucks. Because I like PVP too.
But I refuse to roll another class, just to PVP!
Cheers
Famine,
As you can see, lots of players are identifying the lag created by having lots of casters in sieging as the main problem preventing sieges from being a smooth experience.
Is this problem being considered by Funcom and what is being done to address this issue?
Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions and participate on these forums.
Cheers.
Whatever you guys want point the finger at or defend AoC from this pointed fingers, one thing is the sad reality.
"Your" game dont got a future, most ppl dont got pc for DX10 and if thats main reason to play a game, i rather go outside on my car and have a picnick somewhere in the woods and voila. Landscape and graphcis quality in very important in a game but maybe not that important, and this devs focus in making shiny graphics but forget completly about the game itself wich sucks balls.. look at wow, graphics made to run on every piece of shit computer but ppl play it.
Now, AoC and trialists. Thats a HUGE joke, last time i tried AoC i went into a trial and went to a pvp server (now imagine i never played aoc before)... "awsome graphs and cool classes YEH!!!"... i put my feet in white sands and 5 seconds after i was beeing spawn camped over and over. The most ridiculous shit i ever saw in any mmo tbh. A guy that comes trial, go get the feeling of the game, and his 1st experience is the spawn spots camp? LOL rly.. wtf you expect from trialists? That little detail, of the very 1st pvp experience in aoc beeing the complete shit by the very 1st seconds of experience it?
DO YOU GUYS RLY THINK THIS GAME IS GOING ANYWHERE?
Game is shit cause was designed by ppl that thinks they know whats an mmo and what ppl like. PPL LIKE WORKING GAMES! with no retarded pvp experience after the 1st 10 seconds of experience it.
GL with your game fanboys or wow haters... after one year, aoc forum is only made of QQ, game should have this shoudl have thatr, this should work, this shouldnt crash, that shouldnt lag etc etc etc
Is doomed to be played by 50k fanboys and by trialists that will never play the game unless they are new in mmo industry and never experienced anything better.
I prefer playing LOTR 1000000000 times and if i want pvp i just play an fps game and thats it.
Hello Famine,
Thanks for response and I'm sorry there is so much flame in this topic.
I'm not sure what you mean by "eye-to-eye" but than again my English could use lots of improvement.
You have made a comment about being car machanic a not seeing anything broken so I will try to explain a bit further:
Lets say you have a mp3 player and you put 10 tracks on it, various kind of music, it plays nice and smoothly and all is good but when you load a playlist of 48 tracks on it you are only able to listen to rock music because house and hip-hop tracks start to be skipped and distorted with lots of backround noise that makes it worthless to listen. So yes it works but only if you limit your music to one kind. What would you do? I'm certainly not happy with mp3 player that is advertised to hold and play hundreds of songs but in reality your experience will be limited to only rock music because rest is unbearable. Most people will go to shop and ask for warrant exchange, refund or buy a new player. Hope you see my point.
Heya,
The point I was making is that it's not considered a bug. The example you gave me with the MP3 player is not the intention of the design of mp3 player if in fact the mp3 player is the cause of the skipping. The examples given, if they were bugs, are not because of the siege system. Though they are not bugs minus the playfield crashing, it's looked at as a concern with other systems like the class system.
How players utilize combat with the different types of class combos for groups has nothing to do with sieges being broke. The intention of the design is to encourage group on group gameplay and not limiting specific classes from forming. Otherwise you can say every dungeon in the game is broken because X group can complete it faster than Y group.
The final point to make here is that I don't see where there is a bug here. This is why I made the comment on not seeing eye-to-eye with that notion. The concern that some groups may have a certain advantage over other groups however is a valid concern. What that means is that even though the siege system is not bugged (broken) in those examples you provided, we might have to look at the class system and how they utilize the encounter of sieging other targets. It may be within the intention of the design but based on feedback, we could look at it and see that X classes in Y groups would need some class tweaking and not siege tweaking.
Hope this better explains it a little more. I'm not trying to shoot down that your points are less valuable to us. I just wanted to note that maybe you're looking in the wrong direction with the group examples you gave. We can still for sure look into how other systems react under different conditions that players cause but those are not because the system is broken. Broken refers to it not being within the intention of the design and I'm not seeing that here. It's like the ever struggle with balancing classes to where players want it. We will never reach a goal where every player is happy with balance and that does not mean classes are broken. It just means we might need to tweak it some more based on feedback just like yours.
Cheers!
System broken = not playable, but this dont mean just by technnical issues, it can be by different reasons like melees are useless in sieges, for every single melee the sieges are broken because 1.- lag fest provoked by casters 2.- impossible to do nothing or reach any enemy 3.- Ppl just dont want u in sieges because u are useless, everyone knows it...
Caster`s philosophy of AOC is the biggest fail that the game have in every single way, this is the root problem of many other problems.
Seems like u are trying to fix all but the main problem that is that u have half comunity playing WoW with better graphics aka casters and the other half playing hard mode and getting frustrated by this huge difference of skill needed and play style.
The game seems to be designed around melee but casters are just ruining it all because they are easyer to play, easyer to win with and the only class usefull in sieges.
U have a healing system based on HOTs most of them around the healer or in front of so when a melee charges is basically alone because heals get out of range, with HOTs u cant keep a melee in a big fight, the higest DPS and bigest AOE are made by casters so in big battles melees are easy and instakill, they just cant stand this DPS and healers cant sustain them at all.
Melees just have not any advantage upon casters, no more dps, no more cc, no long distance not all, they are just worse, period.
Age of conan is now really Age of casters and this is the main thing that is going to ruin this game.
Reading Famine's responses, it would seem to me that there are no problems with sieges. The problem is players who only THINK there is a problem with sieges, when in fact there isn't. Apparently sieges are working as intended and are not broken or anything. I repeat: sieges are NOT broken. Only thing that is broken is players minds, if they think sieges are not working or should be different, like fun or something.
Obviously you havent spent a lot of time around developers. If they make a software that says that 1+1=3 and when you then enter 1+1 and it shows 3, any non techie would say that its broke. While the developer would say that its designed that way. i.e. not broken.
So read between Famines lines. I see someone telling that they are working on siges to make them better since they have received a lot of negative feedback. A lot of people feel that 1+1 should be 2. I dont see any admisson of error, since its working as designed. And btw GIveMePvp. Relax on your critzism, i am looking forward to you becoming bored and running off to play the game you ejoy.
Originally posted by BishopB:
Are a lot of the trolls just angry kids with old gaming hardware?
Yes, we have seen this happen a few times and it's something we have looked to resolve with the number of performance tweaks to that playfield. We will continue to do so as we track logs from any type of crash as well any hangs.
Nope not at all and I don't know why you would pick that out when we are talking about specific issues with sieges mentioned in the original post of the thread.
There are problems with the siege system that we are resolving with Update 5. I am no way saying they are perfect! I don't think there is a system that can be perfect in any game because spotting every bug or issue is a uphill battle.
Glen ''Famine'' Swan
Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
Yes, we have seen this happen a few times and it's something we have looked to resolve with the number of performance tweaks to that playfield. We will continue to do so as we track logs from any type of crash as well any hangs.
Nope not at all and I don't know why you would pick that out when we are talking about specific issues with sieges mentioned in the original post of the thread.
[Mod Edit]
There are problems with the siege system that we are resolving with Update 5. I am no way saying they are perfect! I don't think there is a system that can be perfect in any game because spotting every bug or issue is a uphill battle.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I just wanted to clarify that the second quote you used, wasn't mine, somehow you deleted the original poster which was replying to my post.
The following:
Reading Famine's responses, it would seem to me that there are no problems with sieges. The problem is players who only THINK there is a problem with sieges, when in fact there isn't. Apparently sieges are working as intended and are not broken or anything. I repeat: sieges are NOT broken. Only thing that is broken is players minds, if they think sieges are not working or should be different, like fun or something.
was posted by user GiveMePvP, not me.
Ik ben een Nederlander en heb m'n hele leven in Nederland gewoond.
Ik ben vorig jaar naar Oslo, Noorwegen verhuisd omdat ik een Noorse vriendin heb.
--------- Go look that up on the google translator.
And maybe you should dig a bit deeper in my post history, then just the last two weeks. I was on the FC hate squad just as much as everyone else last year!
There is nothing to be Pwned! I keep that to the 12 year old kiddies with too much self esteem.
Cheers
attcking the person instead of the idea is the last ressort of someone who just lost an argument. so i dont think you should care about what those guys are saying, its not only false, it is out of the subject.
Ahh sorry about that Abal. Quote functions here are kind of screwy.
Glen ''Famine'' Swan
Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
Hello Everyone, Beanie here.
For a quick summary who i am before putting in my 2 cents:
Character: Brudi, Anaxamada Brudi (rp profile)
Class: Conqueror
Lvl: 80
Time played: Since Launch
Guilds: SOTL, Exophagy, Vengence of Fang, ORDER
Server: Cimmeria
Last thing before i continue, if you feel the urge to think this is a virial marketer who just happened to hijack my account and post
nothing but glorious positive feedback, please check yourself to the nearest park and take a nice walk, feed some ducks, or play checkers.
Assessment towards Melee vs. Casters:
There is no hiding that since launch, Melee has always had a difficult time against Casters. The Hard Cold truth about Fighting Casters with melee is boiled down to this: you are either good, or your not.. period
you can argue with that statement until your blue in the face, but it has been proven all the way up until now. Ultimately, yes a Caster that knows the ins and outs of melee, or has a average to decent knowledge of what a Caster can do, will always have a higher advantage against Melee types. When i speak of advantage, i am not implying that every victory will go to them, only that their execution of CC's against melee classes will always give soldiers and rogue types a hell of a hard time to take them down.
Secondly, Not all melee types play the same, Assassins, Barbs, Hox's have a strong ability of trashing casters if
1. they get the jump on them first (given)
2. Casters do not pace their CC's correctly ,they are dead due to the other classes, high dps rate, and their cc's that are just as dangerous
Casters aside from their long 8 second cc's (each) (Demo, Necro) or passive lean back and take a piss Storm field (TOS, ability that crits anything from a 1 hit kill or 3000 crit every few seconds)... aside of their other abilities, When they are in trouble, they ALSO have a pool of unused stamina , added with 30 percent extra run speed, to out run any melee that happen to chase them down, doing so until the cc immunity time goes up so they can cc lock their opponent unto submission.
Can Casters IN GENERAL be beaten, yes, for one, not all casters play the same or can perform the same as others.
the balance to this day has been placed on their favor for the sake of their survivability, but they can be taken down if you know your class.
know your class, and the classes that you have trouble fighting. again, argue with me until the sun goes down-- you might even amuse me, and that is coming from a person that is playing one of the most hardest classes in the game.
If you want reference material, there are some videos , and pvp videos of certain classes dealing with others.
Assessment towards Sieges:
In Sieges, melee has been stuck in these two functions, move forward and disrupt, have casters handle the rest.
Melee is stuck with the fustrating and tiresome job of running to battle and trying to tangle up Casters from doing any big damage or having them use their cc's on you (or some one else) mainly to be forced to fall back.
Most of the pain and grief i notice is not so much of being killed by casters, but their uncanny ability of locking people down so much that their attendence in sieging has been nothing more than being farmed by the opposing team.
a couple of things to take into consideration.
1. Funcom has, and continue to place emphasis on that AOC is about group pvp, not solo pvp-- I myself strongly detest this decision, but still continue to play the game simply because there is nothing else out there that i find interesting (except perhaps Darkfall and SW TOR) so 30 out of 80 percent of the time you may be the one to take down 3 people in a violent blood bath, but the other 80, your team and yourself are supporting each other to get the job done, it took me months to get rid of my rambo mentality, and having that with a conq is dumb, period...but i wont go into that, So group centric pvp, not solo.
2. In sieges, The Enviornment matters, the high ground, the buildings around you, the distance, it matters, Casters sure know how to use it, melee can also do the same to a degree to have them Break line of sight. Yes, thats right, if you are too far, or your hiding around a building, Casters are forced to come to you or find another target, because they cannot constantly shoot their fireballs at you if your hiding around a building or tree away from their line of sight.
3. This goes back to knowing your class you are fighting, such as Knowing your Casters abilities. here is a example
for a necro: they have alot of ccs, one being freeze, which is perhaps one of the fastest cc's that can be activated (no chance of avoiding, fastest perhaps being the HOX's root which is 6 seconds) the Necro has a CC that is called unimaginative Terror. as a Conq if i am dealing with a Necro if they end up using Imaginative Terror (Fear CC) i have two options,
a. run away to keep a distance thus having them waste their cc
b. counter their CC with mine, with a knock back , or stun that is faster than theirs
both of these involve having AWARENESS!!!!!!.... of what your enemy is doing, you cannot just go in swinging on your opponent and expect them to just fall down at your mercy, forcing a caster to do something in your advantage makes me forced to fall back, thus ambandoning his/her comrades, yet, keep in mind of their line of sight, and the Rangers that pick them off.
And speaking of Rangers, Casters hate Rangers, they have a longer line of sight, and if Casters are in a disadvantage to try to run away, they are the ones screwed, but unfortunately they are tagged over to the caster group because they are not made for melee (controviersial b.s. debate for another time)
I will close this by saying this, This thread reminds me of 8 months ago, when there was another thread that funcom devs do not listen , added with the same folk harping about them not listening. the funcom devs did not listen when they introduced the gem nerf, the type of nerf that casters were screaming to the top of their lungs to get it fixed.
funcom devs did not listen with the combat upgrade, i hated this upgrade with a passion but sucked it up, because i understood that all this did was make a enormous gap between good melee and sub par melee fighters when fighting against Casters, the combat upgrade in essence was the best change overall to
1. shorten the gap so more melee fighters can be more competitive towards casters
2. have combos activate much more frequently , making fights more fluid and dynamic
But the funcom devs are not listening....hmmm
Then comes the patch 1.05, on the forums many are covering their eyes because the changes may..or may not be the End of AOC as we know it, let alone the End of AOC period. a risky patch many call it, because its introducing itemization, and stats, let alone drastic changes to each class to the point they will be played differently.
Casters are fearing the changes perhaps the most because for one, Tos Casters in masse have to own up to their easy mode spec (storm field) let alone being forced to change their play style all together; the majority are looking to reroll or cancel from word of mouth.
Funcom, putting in the dice to further reinforce group pvp, could perhaps making AOC a glorified guild wars with a subsciption, but if done right, which im hoping- it will put a end to the Age of Caster propaganda for a while, but at any rate, the Dev's do not listen; so what can they do?
simple, come to these forums, and weed out good posts from bad posts, and put a smile on their face no matter how ignorant some of the posts are. I myself question why FC-Famine continues to come here expecting the same results as before when it comes to "feedback" around here. maybe he gets paid to be a punching bag here, but its not often to see a dev / represenative hang around here for this long.
Thats about it, Now if you excuse me, i have a broken unfinished Siege to go and have fun in.
Peace
i don't see what your talking about OP. My server plays in sieges all the time and we don't get all the issues you speak of, even when its a full 100 players in the siege area.
http://forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=89615&page=9
Hundreds of people are complaining about lag, if there is no issue on your server it might be because it's better and all servers should be upgraded, you dont bring raids of 48 casters for sieges or server has low population.
There is a big talk here about casterts being overpowered but my point was that it's not classes balance but siege engine not being able to handle so many of them.
Classes balance putted aside siege are not working because you cant call working sth when most people have red latency indicators.
Ik ben een Nederlander en heb m'n hele leven in Nederland gewoond.
Ik ben vorig jaar naar Oslo, Noorwegen verhuisd omdat ik een Noorse vriendin heb.
--------- Go look that up on the google translator.
And maybe you should dig a bit deeper in my post history, then just the last two weeks. I was on the FC hate squad just as much as everyone else last year!
There is nothing to be Pwned! I keep that to the 12 year old kiddies with too much self esteem.
Cheers
attcking the person instead of the idea is the last ressort of someone who just lost an argument. so i dont think you should care about what those guys are saying, its not only false, it is out of the subject.
Very true once people start to attack posters with that type of argument's then they do know they have lost and they know they have nothing else to bring into the discussion. It's the same thing when having a discussion and the one you discuss with starts calling you stupid and attacking you rather then the thing that is being discussed, they are beaten and they know it, yet they try a last resort to get their points ahead.
Playing: Battlefield - Bad company (Xbox360) Arma2, DFO (PC)
On my radar: TSW, MO
MMO's played: SWG (pre cu/cu), WoW, AoC, WAR, DFO, Planetside
MMO's that I have tested: Lotro, L2, Aion, Ryzom
Thanks for taking the time to "build" your post. Nice overview of things.
Very true once people start to attack posters with that type of argument's then they do know they have lost and they know they have nothing else to bring into the discussion. It's the same thing when having a discussion and the one you discuss with starts calling you stupid and attacking you rather then the thing that is being discussed, they are beaten and they know it, yet they try a last resort to get their points ahead.
Very true once people start to attack posters with that type of argument's then they do know they have lost and they know they have nothing else to bring into the discussion. It's the same thing when having a discussion and the one you discuss with starts calling you stupid and attacking you rather then the thing that is being discussed, they are beaten and they know it, yet they try a last resort to get their points ahead.
5/10 for the effort
Playing: Battlefield - Bad company (Xbox360) Arma2, DFO (PC)
On my radar: TSW, MO
MMO's played: SWG (pre cu/cu), WoW, AoC, WAR, DFO, Planetside
MMO's that I have tested: Lotro, L2, Aion, Ryzom