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I'm just going to give it straight.

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  • FariicFariic Member Posts: 1,546
    Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

    Originally posted by Vyeth 
    I'm sorry.. This is what it boils down too for now. Nice big realistic PvP battles. If you have played World War 2 Online, then you know kinda what to expect from darkfall. WW2 Online has a very big world and is pretty realistic in terms of travel time across the map to the warzone. The lack of some sort of ecosystem makes this game unable to be called  a sandbox. Saga of Ryzom is a sandbox. This game is a fantasy combat simulation. Nothing is wrong with that, but untill they fix the lack of nuetral life (npc) in the game then thats all it can ever be.

     

    The game has so much more to offer than PvP, though.  Why focus on it and ignore the politics, Character development, Crafting, city building, trades, etc., I dont get it.

    However, the PvE ecosystem is a major undeveoped aspect of this game, but then again, the ecosystem was actaully designed to be player-driven, so if its some simple computer-controlled and predictable environment is something your more in tune with, then the DF player-driven ecosystem  is definitely not the open environment for you.

    City building is restricted.  Not everyone can do this; in fact a very small percentage of the population will ever do any form of city building.

     

    Politics?

    It's shallow.  I don't need an explanation on how clans will negotiate alliances or go to war over thier forts.  I understand the dynamics of the system.  It's still just fighting over a fort, and that fort has no impact on the world.  You can't build trade centers so politics will never have an impact on trade.  Killing enemy harvesters doesn't exactly slow another guilds productivity down.  Gear is so easy to accumulate it's a joke.  Clans and alliances are fully self sufficient.

    Politics consist of clans agreeing on mutual enemies, and then raiding thier forts.  

    You decide on the one that will be the easiest to take.  Forts aren't placed strategically; taking one is no dif. then taking another.

    Most people will be playing while the political landscape unfolds around them.

    It's a sytem best driven by pettyness.

    The PvE is lacking because it's barely implimented.

    They put in some mobs with rudimentary AI, and they've been tuning it since release. 

    http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=183752 << The design notes.

    Monsters

    Major Monster Redistribution. For details see the Design Notes

    AI tactics have been updated and improved

    There is a market for every type of game, even bad ones.

    Telling people games like DFO aren't for them because they don't like it is cheap.

    I mean, we could argue that you like bad games and we don't?  Prove me wrong.

     

  • Cik_AsalinCik_Asalin Member Posts: 3,033
    Originally posted by nikoliath
    Someone has summed it up before;
     Darkfall = Counterstrike knife fighting. 
     
    I have played "player driven content" games before, thank you. All of which in my opinion are head and shoulders above Darkfall. For a game that considers itself "sandbox" it is very very sloppy. Playing against real people will nearly always be more "thrilling" than your so called "omputer-controlled and generated content", but that does not alone make a good game.
     
    You may believe that you are somehow more sofisticated as you do not enjoy "quest-lines and window-dressing and non-disruptive, quiet, predictable, story-board nature of a computer-controlled mmo ecosystem", good for you, but DF is just not very good. EvE is a perfect example of a brilliant  game, well made, well thought out, loads of sandbox options, pvp, pve, player driven content etc etc.
     
    If Darkfall had delivered a 1/4 of what they promised on their feature list then it may have been a pretty good game, as it stands :-
     
    4/10
     

    Well, considering DF is similar to counterstrike is an awfully simplistic and moronic comparison, considering their 2 different genres and though I absolutely loved CS and it still ranks as one of the most memorable fps with nostalgia to boot, only an idiot would compare one to the other imho.

    I would like to know the other vast array of player driven content games you’ve played that you can compare DF too. Im sure it will help make the point that seems so evasive.

    Comparing DF to a sandbox is another misnomer, and though I never made that claim, you seem to have some despair about comparing DF to vast array of other sandbox-esque games, and I’m all ears about those too. Those that players drive the ecosystem, crafting, diplomacy, trades, city building, shipbuilding, land combat and sea combat, etc.

    I don’t think I’m more sophisticated, though the correct spelling is sophisticated, since I never said I didn’t enjoy quest lines and pre-determined and scripted and predictable stories. But at the same time, I will never claim DF to be awesome, excellent or complete; however, compared to computer-driven entertainment and ecosystems with comfortable character safety and linear progression against a machine rather than multiple societies of players, I find it to be a breath of fresh air.

    EvE is a very good game, but then again, a space genre not for everyone, and the significant limitation whereby the code substantially governs how you progress in skills rather than player development, it isn’t for me.

     

     

  • Cik_AsalinCik_Asalin Member Posts: 3,033
    Originally posted by Fariic
    City building is restricted.  Not everyone can do this; in fact a very small percentage of the population will ever do any form of city building.

     
    Politics?

    It's shallow.  I don't need an explanation on how clans will negotiate alliances or go to war over thier forts.  I understand the dynamics of the system.  It's still just fighting over a fort, and that fort has no impact on the world.  You can't build trade centers so politics will never have an impact on trade.  Killing enemy harvesters doesn't exactly slow another guilds productivity down.  Gear is so easy to accumulate it's a joke.  Clans and alliances are fully self sufficient.
    Politics consist of clans agreeing on mutual enemies, and then raiding thier forts.  

    You decide on the one that will be the easiest to take.  Forts aren't placed strategically; taking one is no dif. then taking another.

    Most people will be playing while the political landscape unfolds around them.

    It's a sytem best driven by pettyness.
    The PvE is lacking because it's barely implimented.

    They put in some mobs with rudimentary AI, and they've been tuning it since release. 
    http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=183752 << The design notes.

    Monsters

    Major Monster Redistribution. For details see the Design Notes

    AI tactics have been updated and improved
    There is a market for every type of game, even bad ones.

    Telling people games like DFO aren't for them because they don't like it is cheap.

    I mean, we could argue that you like bad games and we don't?  Prove me wrong.
     

    Anyone can do city building, and the contrary is just a bold-face lie. You think any society and team-based game should cater to a solo artist on everything is a sad interpretation of what any mmo is about, let alone DF.

    Politics is again for the team, rather than the individual. If you or anyone is hung up on the single-player nature of DF, then that opinion, without a doubt, carries over to any mmo and you are better off playing a single-player rpg; your points in that regard are moot.

    And how is diplomacy any different than, well, diplomacy. Diplomacy whereby parties agree to terms, including common enemy and friendly’s? Sounds like you not only want to live in a mmo utopia where every player is on the same side or fighting a common cause, but that you’d wish it carried over to the real world. If that’s the case, your in for a continued hard life, dude.

    Your hung up on PvE as are many. Well, the reality is that your accustom to a simple mmo world of computer-generated and driven ecosystems and combat systems that offer you safe ins and outs of predictability and character development comfort. Again, that aint DF for its player-driven and influenced world. While your killing rats and camping worgs in other mmos, we’re killing players and camping hamlets.

    There is a market for humdrum environmentally controlled games by code and more alive and people-driven environments like DF. DF aint great, but either is anything else available on the market, including overly-hyped single-player rpg’s that cater to thousands of simultaneous players, calling themselves mmorps.

     

     

  • rymanryman Member Posts: 227
    Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

    Originally posted by nikoliath
    Someone has summed it up before;
     Darkfall = Counterstrike knife fighting. 
     
    I have played "player driven content" games before, thank you. All of which in my opinion are head and shoulders above Darkfall. For a game that considers itself "sandbox" it is very very sloppy. Playing against real people will nearly always be more "thrilling" than your so called "omputer-controlled and generated content", but that does not alone make a good game.
     
    You may believe that you are somehow more sofisticated as you do not enjoy "quest-lines and window-dressing and non-disruptive, quiet, predictable, story-board nature of a computer-controlled mmo ecosystem", good for you, but DF is just not very good. EvE is a perfect example of a brilliant  game, well made, well thought out, loads of sandbox options, pvp, pve, player driven content etc etc.
     
    If Darkfall had delivered a 1/4 of what they promised on their feature list then it may have been a pretty good game, as it stands :-
     
    4/10
     

    Well, considering DF is similar to counterstrike is an awfully simplistic and moronic comparison, considering their 2 different genres and though I absolutely loved CS and it still ranks as one of the most memorable fps with nostalgia to boot, only an idiot would compare one to the other imho.

    EvE is a very good game, but then again, a space genre not for everyone, and the significant limitation whereby the code substantially governs how you progress in skills rather than player development, it isn’t for me.

     

     

     

    For starters, the only people that are idiots are the ones who developed Darkfall into a Counterstrike clone.

    The "code" is actually much more progressive than your typical WoW-MMO and it is player development on a SANDBOX scale. You don't get much better than that in player development.. clueless? Hell, what's the going rate for the amount of time played in WoW to get to level 80? Perhaps close to 100 days PLAYTIME for the casual player..? more? less for the super hardcores? Oh yeah did i mention gear and raiding? Add a bunch more hours just for that so you can actually see the end game without any dorks booting you out when they gear check ya.

    Jump onto your EVE game at any time and be bypassed Heavy Assualt ships or very near Carriers. But, you know what's great about sandbox games? You make the end game, not the game. You can go for Assualt Ships and be happy for the rest of your EVE gaming and all it took was a few weeks of not playing to just train it.. or you could play up to you.

    Yeah.. definitely.. EVE has terrible player development....idiots

  • nikoliathnikoliath Member UncommonPosts: 1,154
    Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

    Originally posted by Fariic
    City building is restricted.  Not everyone can do this; in fact a very small percentage of the population will ever do any form of city building.

     
    Politics?

    It's shallow.  I don't need an explanation on how clans will negotiate alliances or go to war over thier forts.  I understand the dynamics of the system.  It's still just fighting over a fort, and that fort has no impact on the world.  You can't build trade centers so politics will never have an impact on trade.  Killing enemy harvesters doesn't exactly slow another guilds productivity down.  Gear is so easy to accumulate it's a joke.  Clans and alliances are fully self sufficient.
    Politics consist of clans agreeing on mutual enemies, and then raiding thier forts.  

    You decide on the one that will be the easiest to take.  Forts aren't placed strategically; taking one is no dif. then taking another.

    Most people will be playing while the political landscape unfolds around them.

    It's a sytem best driven by pettyness.
    The PvE is lacking because it's barely implimented.

    They put in some mobs with rudimentary AI, and they've been tuning it since release. 
    http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=183752 << The design notes.

    Monsters

    Major Monster Redistribution. For details see the Design Notes

    AI tactics have been updated and improved
    There is a market for every type of game, even bad ones.

    Telling people games like DFO aren't for them because they don't like it is cheap.

    I mean, we could argue that you like bad games and we don't?  Prove me wrong.
     

     

    There is a market for humdrum environmentally controlled games by code and more alive and people-driven environments like DF. DF aint great, but either is anything else available on the market, including overly-hyped single-player rpg’s that cater to thousands of simultaneous players, calling themselves mmorps.

     

     

    And here we have the true point of all your comments thus far. You DO actually believe you are a cut above the rest because you play and enjoy darkfall, while the rest of the hoi polloi play "humdrum environmentally controlled games by code".

     

    There is only one thing worse than a smug person, and that's an elitist smug person.

     

    As for games that I have played? I believe there is a long list in my sig. Neocron is/was 10 times the game darkfall is right now and I do believe Reakktor were a small time company back then. Star Wars Galaxies at release simply blows DF into space, in terms of every concept.

     

    I will concede my comment on counter-strike, it wasn't mine to use, so perhaps Darkfall right now is akin to say, Planetside;

    - weapons, save for a knife

    +resource nodes

    although it pains me to compare such an awesome game to Darkfall in it's current state.

     

    I still for the life of me can not see 8 or 9 years worth of development time in DF, infact it's hard to see where 2 years worth of development is. Perhaps darkfall was nothing more than a revenue source from grants and investors keeping Tasos and his friends off the job market, just as some people leave school and go to college and then Uni so they can delay getting a job. Maybe what you see is 6 months cramming because someone was pulling the plug.

     

    P.S ohh and the correct spelling for "Neither" is neither and not "either".

     

     

     

     

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan Member RarePosts: 3,460
    Originally posted by summitus

    Originally posted by Devour

    Originally posted by summitus


    Note the part of his post which says he " Enjoyed most of the Game"
    I am also enjoying most of the game ,I have also posted on numerous occasions that the game has isues as most Mmo's do..
    But there there again trolling does'nt really require you to read posts properly does it ...

    Does being a shill mean you need to be consistent in your arguments? Please, do tell. You seem to be the master of it.

    You have been reported .

    Out of curiosity, why did you report him? Or do you just report anyone who disagrees with you?

    Respect, walk, what did you say?
    Respect, walk
    Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
    - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
    Yes, they are back !

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan Member RarePosts: 3,460
    Originally posted by Vyeth 
    The UI. I do not understand what the big deal is about it. it's a "throwback" UI from the everquest days. Actually its more like Vanguard, and I know that's not saying much, but it is very far from being awful. (Anarchy Online anyone?)

     

    Pretending the Vanguard UI is anything even remotely as messy and counter-intuitive than the DFO UI already dents your credibility quite a bit. And even the AO UI was superior to DFO's, at least you didn't have to type /commands for basic UI functionalities.

    Respect, walk, what did you say?
    Respect, walk
    Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
    - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
    Yes, they are back !

  • VyethVyeth Member UncommonPosts: 1,461
    Originally posted by nikoliath

    Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

    Originally posted by Fariic
    City building is restricted.  Not everyone can do this; in fact a very small percentage of the population will ever do any form of city building.

     
    Politics?

    It's shallow.  I don't need an explanation on how clans will negotiate alliances or go to war over thier forts.  I understand the dynamics of the system.  It's still just fighting over a fort, and that fort has no impact on the world.  You can't build trade centers so politics will never have an impact on trade.  Killing enemy harvesters doesn't exactly slow another guilds productivity down.  Gear is so easy to accumulate it's a joke.  Clans and alliances are fully self sufficient.
    Politics consist of clans agreeing on mutual enemies, and then raiding thier forts.  

    You decide on the one that will be the easiest to take.  Forts aren't placed strategically; taking one is no dif. then taking another.

    Most people will be playing while the political landscape unfolds around them.

    It's a sytem best driven by pettyness.
    The PvE is lacking because it's barely implimented.

    They put in some mobs with rudimentary AI, and they've been tuning it since release. 
    http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=183752 << The design notes.

    Monsters

    Major Monster Redistribution. For details see the Design Notes

    AI tactics have been updated and improved
    There is a market for every type of game, even bad ones.

    Telling people games like DFO aren't for them because they don't like it is cheap.

    I mean, we could argue that you like bad games and we don't?  Prove me wrong.
     

     

    There is a market for humdrum environmentally controlled games by code and more alive and people-driven environments like DF. DF aint great, but either is anything else available on the market, including overly-hyped single-player rpg’s that cater to thousands of simultaneous players, calling themselves mmorps.

     

     

    And here we have the true point of all your comments thus far. You DO actually believe you are a cut above the rest because you play and enjoy darkfall, while the rest of the hoi polloi play "humdrum environmentally controlled games by code".

     

    There is only one thing worse than a smug person, and that's an elitist smug person.

     

    As for games that I have played? I believe there is a long list in my sig. Neocron is/was 10 times the game darkfall is right now and I do believe Reakktor were a small time company back then. Star Wars Galaxies at release simply blows DF into space, in terms of every concept.

     

    I will concede my comment on counter-strike, it wasn't mine to use, so perhaps Darkfall right now is akin to say, Planetside;

    - weapons, save for a knife

    +resource nodes

    although it pains me to compare such an awesome game to Darkfall in it's current state.

     

    I still for the life of me can not see 8 or 9 years worth of development time in DF, infact it's hard to see where 2 years worth of development is. Perhaps darkfall was nothing more than a revenue source from grants and investors keeping Tasos and his friends off the job market, just as some people leave school and go to college and then Uni so they can delay getting a job. Maybe what you see is 6 months cramming because someone was pulling the plug.

     

    P.S ohh and the correct spelling for "Neither" is neither and not "either".

     

     

     

     

    I have to agree with the first highlighted sentence.However Darkfall is developed and ran by a pretty small indie team. This is a pretty impressive bit of work for the time that they put into it (which is why I had no problems buying and playing the game). 2 years of indie development is actually quite a bit especially since we have no idea what these guys lives are like. I've tried to develop a few projects before and it is not as easy as people think if you are small and have no real funding.

    But playing this game does not make you any better than anyone else. It's like gamers who play Madden and think they are abosultely a cut above any other gamer who doesn't play sports games. Or the idiots who think that because they play World of Warcraft that they are the only ones that the industry should care about.

    People must not feel very special in this society, because theres always something to boast about and use to place yourself above someone else, no matter how small and pointless the shit is..

     

  • VyethVyeth Member UncommonPosts: 1,461
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan

    Originally posted by Vyeth 
    The UI. I do not understand what the big deal is about it. it's a "throwback" UI from the everquest days. Actually its more like Vanguard, and I know that's not saying much, but it is very far from being awful. (Anarchy Online anyone?)

     

    Pretending the Vanguard UI is anything even remotely as messy and counter-intuitive than the DFO UI already dents your credibility quite a bit. And even the AO UI was superior to DFO's, at least you didn't have to type /commands for basic UI functionalities.

     

    I'm glad you think so, but judge, you forgot one thing. The Vanguard UI is nothing more than what the Darkfall UI is. I seen very FEW differences, we can do the screenshot thing if you want to be really technical and all that jazz. As for the Anarchy Online UI, I am glad you liked it, but it doesn't change the fact that it would NEVER work these days. You mention /commands, but we are talking about the LOOK of the UI (well at least I am, but of course the "psuedo-intellects" of mmorpg.com will try and confuse the meaning of posts.), NOT the functionality. You may only care about what you can click without having to type but even if I have to type out 90% of the things I want to do, as long as I can SEE my status, location (minimap), chat box and hotbar easily and can read each element of each section on my screen I have no problem.. Darkfalls UI is NOT as MESSY as you make it out to be, and I still think that it is comparable to Vangaurds.

    Cheers?

    yeah. Cheers.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775

    To Nikoliath,

    I am glad someone has mention some specific games that they feel a are better than Darkfall.

    Although my next question clearly apears as a trap its not. Its more of a targeted question to determine why I might not want to spend a good amount of time looking into Neocron and SWG before actually doing so. The question is, are you still playing those games and if not why?

    Also, on the aspect of Lore I answer the reply. Basically the idea of "sandbox" is that the players create the lore. Not the coded game. Coded lore in games (which I personally dont know anyone who actually reads) is usually lost battles, evil empires and the like, there is no reason that can not be the players themselves and in fact is exactly what is going on in DF as we speak. As far as what games are or are not sandboxed its important to keep in mind that some people think the GTA series are sandbox which is simply insane, and as a result I am careful to argue games I havent played are sandboxed even though the commuity calls it as such.

     

    Also, as far as the list of games you have played my concern with that list is that its very clear to me that you would have had a very hard time getting very deep into all those games. Its kind of like the Microsoft Certified guy that walks around with a million certs. its clear he cheated and didnt really get into the information.

    Not saying you are that guy, just saying personally dont see it possible for someone to play that many MMO's with any level of depth.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan Member RarePosts: 3,460
    Originally posted by Vyeth

    Originally posted by The_Korrigan

    Originally posted by Vyeth 
    The UI. I do not understand what the big deal is about it. it's a "throwback" UI from the everquest days. Actually its more like Vanguard, and I know that's not saying much, but it is very far from being awful. (Anarchy Online anyone?)

     

    Pretending the Vanguard UI is anything even remotely as messy and counter-intuitive than the DFO UI already dents your credibility quite a bit. And even the AO UI was superior to DFO's, at least you didn't have to type /commands for basic UI functionalities.

     

    I'm glad you think so, but judge, you forgot one thing. The Vanguard UI is nothing more than what the Darkfall UI is. I seen very FEW differences, we can do the screenshot thing if you want to be really technical and all that jazz

     

    Did you even play Vanguard? The functionality of the VG UI beats the crap out of the messy pile of cow dung the DFO UI is. VG's UI is functional and intuitive, DFO's interface is not. Aventurine tried to be smarter than everybody else, reinventing the wheel, sadly the wheel is rectangular and doesn't work very well...

    Respect, walk, what did you say?
    Respect, walk
    Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
    - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
    Yes, they are back !

  • meadmoonmeadmoon Member UncommonPosts: 1,344
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan

    Originally posted by summitus

    Originally posted by Devour

    Originally posted by summitus


    Note the part of his post which says he " Enjoyed most of the Game"
    I am also enjoying most of the game ,I have also posted on numerous occasions that the game has isues as most Mmo's do..
    But there there again trolling does'nt really require you to read posts properly does it ...

    Does being a shill mean you need to be consistent in your arguments? Please, do tell. You seem to be the master of it.

    You have been reported .

    Out of curiosity, why did you report him? Or do you just report anyone who disagrees with you?



     

    That's what "reporting" means to many users of the mmorpg.com forums.

  • nikoliathnikoliath Member UncommonPosts: 1,154
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD


    To Nikoliath,
    I am glad someone has mention some specific games that they feel a are better than Darkfall.
    Although my next question clearly apears as a trap its not. Its more of a targeted question to determine why I might not want to spend a good amount of time looking into Neocron and SWG before actually doing so. The question is, are you still playing those games and if not why?
    No, I no longer play either of them. Why?
    Nothing to do with the games themselves, although SWG has changed beyond recognition, but simply because I chose to move on to different games. I tend to swap back and forth between many MMOS over time, it's just the way I am, I love trying out new games that interest me. Conversely a friend of mine has played NOTHING but WOW for the last 2 - 2.5 years and the same with planetside before that, it's just the way he is.
     
    You are dead right when you say I could not have played all of them in any great depth, but why would I need to if the game didn't capture my desire to? One does not require 30 years as a professional wine critic to be able to say...meh, don't like this wine much.
     
    It is in my own opinion that Darkfall is not a great game. To me it screamed of being one of those massive projects that just didn't happen. They promised so much and delivered so little and their feature list loaded with lies and broken promises.
     
    You love DF, good for you. I have no intention of telling you that you are wrong, how can you be? It's your opinion. But I atleast put my money where my mouth was and bought it, played it. 
     
    Good luck with DF, I hope you enjoy it for many years to come.
     
     
     
     

     

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