So because goblins are the weakest enemy and mob and the most promising way to start playing the game it is not a sandbox lol No one will hinder you go exploring and starting on trolls or vampires, zombies, invading a player city and start hacking at someone etc. Its just the game points you to a successfully and promising path lol You also could ask for 20 gold in public and may be given that lol because it is a sandbox and its on players to make content.
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
Pretty baseless arguement you got going there.
I got an idea.
Play UO without being a human or an Elf.
Or play Ryzom and be a spaceship.
Play SWG and be an Orc.
Just because Eve uses ships as an avatar doesn't mean CCP didn't provide tools for players to actually play in a sandbox.
And just because a game doesn't uses classes doesn't make it a sandbox either.
A sandbox should be open ended gameplay with player drven content. The devs still have to provide the means by wich players can build the content. That's the "fluff" as some of you DFO fanatics are apt to call it. Unfortunetly for some of you, it's that fluff that makes the dif. between a good game and a bad one. The fluff allows players to deviate from the norm, to do something other then grind, and removes a lot of the linear feel of gameplay.
EQ2 has more of a sanbox feel the DFO does, but no one would call it a sandbox.
I played Lineage 2 for a couple years from release, DFO is VERY similliar to that game. In fact, it's build on the exact same premise. FFA pvp, with a focus on clan warfare and territory control. Lineage 2 isn't a sandbox, and the only dif. between these two games is that L2 uses classes; while DFO doesn't. (yeah, yeah, FPS combat) The very biggest dif. between these two is, L2 released with considerably more content then DFO did.
DFO isn't a sandbox game. It's a clan based pvp game and nothing more.
It provides NOTHING outside of that.
DFO is linear gameplay; everything about the game is geared towards clan pvp.
So because goblins are the weakest enemy and mob and the most promising way to start playing the game it is not a sandbox lol No one will hinder you go exploring and starting on trolls or vampires, zombies, invading a player city and start hacking at someone etc. Its just the game points you to a successfully and promising path lol You also could ask for 20 gold in public and may be given that lol because it is a sandbox and its on players to make content.
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
I don't know about the hostile answers but I do know having to complete a simple tutorial doesn't make a game not a sandbox. By those criteria no game is a sandbox. Sorry even in a sandbox there are things you will be forced to do.
On the first point I agree, all games needs a tutorial and DF can add a lot more to that. Even a sandbox should have a tutorial where you learn the game, or you will loose most of the games potential players at the first few days.
However should you not be forced to do anything, tutorials are for first time players and you should be able to skip them if you don't want to play them.
So because goblins are the weakest enemy and mob and the most promising way to start playing the game it is not a sandbox lol No one will hinder you go exploring and starting on trolls or vampires, zombies, invading a player city and start hacking at someone etc. Its just the game points you to a successfully and promising path lol You also could ask for 20 gold in public and may be given that lol because it is a sandbox and its on players to make content.
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
I am a SWG vet myself, are you aware of the fact the SWG didn't featured FFA PvP ?
Don't you think if it would have such as ruleset you would not have been enjoyed an easy dancer's life or easy harvester's life without you wanting to gain some pvp skill to defend yourself ?
See you can try to be crafter only in Darkfall too, without ever bother to skill up weapon skills because it IS a sandbox, it just has FFA PvP ruleset and you have to live with the consequences and die often. You have the freedom to be a defensless crafter, just because the freedom is given to anyone no one likes to be defenseless tho and most if not all grab some weapon to PvP. (we have a pacifist in clan and he just crafts and gathers, he has a hard life but he is strict to his beliefs and don't even "harm" other people even if its pixels)
It is a design choice, SWG was missing that freedom you couldnt attack at will, thats why you could have just ignored to gained any other skill and play a crafter only.
DarkFall on the other hand has its PvP, sandbox style, attack anyone at will. It maybe not offers all the elements but it could without a problem. Whats would hold back the devs to put dancing skill in ? What would devs hold back put more sort of minerals in ? The design is not a hinderance, DsrkFall is a sanbox through and through, just you don't like the elements that are in.
I wonder on the other hand if you put freedom in SWG and allow free PvP , would it work ? would it have been "sandboxy" for you ?
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
So because goblins are the weakest enemy and mob and the most promising way to start playing the game it is not a sandbox lol No one will hinder you go exploring and starting on trolls or vampires, zombies, invading a player city and start hacking at someone etc. Its just the game points you to a successfully and promising path lol You also could ask for 20 gold in public and may be given that lol because it is a sandbox and its on players to make content.
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
I am a SWG vet myself, are you aware of the fact the SWG didn't featured FFA PvP ?
Don't you think if it would have such as ruleset you would not have been enjoyed an easy dancer's life or easy harvester's life without you wanting to gain some pvp skill to defend yourself ?
See you can try to be crafter only in Darkfall too, without ever bother to skill up weapon skills because it IS a sandbox, it just has FFA PvP ruleset and you have to live with the consequences and die often. You have the freedom to be a defensless crafter, just because the freedom is given to anyone no one likes to be defenseless tho and most if not all grab some weapon to PvP. (we have a pacifist in clan and he just crafts and gathers, he has a hard life but he is strict to his beliefs and don't even "harm" other people even if its pixels)
It is a design choice, SWG was missing that freedom you couldnt attack at will, thats why you could have just ignored to gained any other skill and play a crafter only.
DarkFall on the other hand has its PvP, sandbox style, attack anyone at will. It maybe not offers all the elements but it could without a problem. Whats would hold back the devs to put dancing skill in ? What would devs hold back put more sort of minerals in ? The design is not a hinderance, DsrkFall is a sanbox through and through, just you don't like the elements that are in.
I wonder on the other hand if you put freedom in SWG and allow free PvP , would it work ? would it have been "sandboxy" for you ?
Yes I think it would have worked. UO is a prime example. It worked when there was FFA PVP full loot. And you could do/be anything you wanted. However, if you think DF is a sandbox, you must have not played a real one.
So because goblins are the weakest enemy and mob and the most promising way to start playing the game it is not a sandbox lol No one will hinder you go exploring and starting on trolls or vampires, zombies, invading a player city and start hacking at someone etc. Its just the game points you to a successfully and promising path lol You also could ask for 20 gold in public and may be given that lol because it is a sandbox and its on players to make content.
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
I am a SWG vet myself, are you aware of the fact the SWG didn't featured FFA PvP ?
Don't you think if it would have such as ruleset you would not have been enjoyed an easy dancer's life or easy harvester's life without you wanting to gain some pvp skill to defend yourself ?
See you can try to be crafter only in Darkfall too, without ever bother to skill up weapon skills because it IS a sandbox, it just has FFA PvP ruleset and you have to live with the consequences and die often. You have the freedom to be a defensless crafter, just because the freedom is given to anyone no one likes to be defenseless tho and most if not all grab some weapon to PvP. (we have a pacifist in clan and he just crafts and gathers, he has a hard life but he is strict to his beliefs and don't even "harm" other people even if its pixels)
It is a design choice, SWG was missing that freedom you couldnt attack at will, thats why you could have just ignored to gained any other skill and play a crafter only.
DarkFall on the other hand has its PvP, sandbox style, attack anyone at will. It maybe not offers all the elements but it could without a problem. Whats would hold back the devs to put dancing skill in ? What would devs hold back put more sort of minerals in ? The design is not a hinderance, DsrkFall is a sanbox through and through, just you don't like the elements that are in.
I wonder on the other hand if you put freedom in SWG and allow free PvP , would it work ? would it have been "sandboxy" for you ?
Yes I think it would have worked. UO is a prime example. It worked when there was FFA PVP full loot. And you could do/be anything you wanted. However, if you think DF is a sandbox, you must have not played a real one.
SWG wasn't one ?
Would you check you harvester without having any skill in weapons like you did with only dancer skills under full loot conditions ?
SWG and DF are of same kind, sandboxes with different weight on some elements and i give you that DF may offering fewer to your liking but you cant talking it out of sandbox. Devs could put in taming, then you would let your pets attack for you. Design decision, leaded to the decision that has cut that out.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
So because goblins are the weakest enemy and mob and the most promising way to start playing the game it is not a sandbox lol No one will hinder you go exploring and starting on trolls or vampires, zombies, invading a player city and start hacking at someone etc. Its just the game points you to a successfully and promising path lol You also could ask for 20 gold in public and may be given that lol because it is a sandbox and its on players to make content.
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
I am a SWG vet myself, are you aware of the fact the SWG didn't featured FFA PvP ?
Don't you think if it would have such as ruleset you would not have been enjoyed an easy dancer's life or easy harvester's life without you wanting to gain some pvp skill to defend yourself ?
See you can try to be crafter only in Darkfall too, without ever bother to skill up weapon skills because it IS a sandbox, it just has FFA PvP ruleset and you have to live with the consequences and die often. You have the freedom to be a defensless crafter, just because the freedom is given to anyone no one likes to be defenseless tho and most if not all grab some weapon to PvP. (we have a pacifist in clan and he just crafts and gathers, he has a hard life but he is strict to his beliefs and don't even "harm" other people even if its pixels)
It is a design choice, SWG was missing that freedom you couldnt attack at will, thats why you could have just ignored to gained any other skill and play a crafter only.
DarkFall on the other hand has its PvP, sandbox style, attack anyone at will. It maybe not offers all the elements but it could without a problem. Whats would hold back the devs to put dancing skill in ? What would devs hold back put more sort of minerals in ? The design is not a hinderance, DsrkFall is a sanbox through and through, just you don't like the elements that are in.
I wonder on the other hand if you put freedom in SWG and allow free PvP , would it work ? would it have been "sandboxy" for you ?
Yes I think it would have worked. UO is a prime example. It worked when there was FFA PVP full loot. And you could do/be anything you wanted. However, if you think DF is a sandbox, you must have not played a real one.
SWG wasn't one ?
Would you check you harvester without having any skill in weapons like you did with only dancer skills under full loot conditions ?
SWG and DF are of same kind, sandboxes with different weight on some elements and i give you that DF may offering fewer to your liking but you cant talking it out of sandbox. Devs could put in taming, then you would let your pets attack for you. Design decision, leaded to the decision that has cut that out.
You're right, except that Darkfall isn't a sandbox as has already been pointed out numerous times in this very thread. You blinding repeating your "lalalalala - I can't hear you - yes, it is!" mantra doesn't make it so.
So because goblins are the weakest enemy and mob and the most promising way to start playing the game it is not a sandbox lol No one will hinder you go exploring and starting on trolls or vampires, zombies, invading a player city and start hacking at someone etc. Its just the game points you to a successfully and promising path lol You also could ask for 20 gold in public and may be given that lol because it is a sandbox and its on players to make content.
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
I am a SWG vet myself, are you aware of the fact the SWG didn't featured FFA PvP ?
Don't you think if it would have such as ruleset you would not have been enjoyed an easy dancer's life or easy harvester's life without you wanting to gain some pvp skill to defend yourself ?
See you can try to be crafter only in Darkfall too, without ever bother to skill up weapon skills because it IS a sandbox, it just has FFA PvP ruleset and you have to live with the consequences and die often. You have the freedom to be a defensless crafter, just because the freedom is given to anyone no one likes to be defenseless tho and most if not all grab some weapon to PvP. (we have a pacifist in clan and he just crafts and gathers, he has a hard life but he is strict to his beliefs and don't even "harm" other people even if its pixels)
It is a design choice, SWG was missing that freedom you couldnt attack at will, thats why you could have just ignored to gained any other skill and play a crafter only.
DarkFall on the other hand has its PvP, sandbox style, attack anyone at will. It maybe not offers all the elements but it could without a problem. Whats would hold back the devs to put dancing skill in ? What would devs hold back put more sort of minerals in ? The design is not a hinderance, DsrkFall is a sanbox through and through, just you don't like the elements that are in.
I wonder on the other hand if you put freedom in SWG and allow free PvP , would it work ? would it have been "sandboxy" for you ?
Yes I think it would have worked. UO is a prime example. It worked when there was FFA PVP full loot. And you could do/be anything you wanted. However, if you think DF is a sandbox, you must have not played a real one.
SWG wasn't one ?
Would you check you harvester without having any skill in weapons like you did with only dancer skills under full loot conditions ?
SWG and DF are of same kind, sandboxes with different weight on some elements and i give you that DF may offering fewer to your liking but you cant talking it out of sandbox. Devs could put in taming, then you would let your pets attack for you. Design decision, leaded to the decision that has cut that out.
DFO is no more a sandbox then Lineage 2.
They are exactly the same form of game.
The only dif. is DFO is skill based and L2 is class based.
Come to think of it.
No one playing Darkfall has the right to call others a carebear.
I was playing L2 when it came out.
L2 was HARDCORE. DFO is a pansy game compared to it.
I spent MONTHS earning the money to buy a full set of armor, and then lost it trying to take a shortcut to another town. Killed by a skeleton.
So because goblins are the weakest enemy and mob and the most promising way to start playing the game it is not a sandbox lol No one will hinder you go exploring and starting on trolls or vampires, zombies, invading a player city and start hacking at someone etc. Its just the game points you to a successfully and promising path lol You also could ask for 20 gold in public and may be given that lol because it is a sandbox and its on players to make content.
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
I am a SWG vet myself, are you aware of the fact the SWG didn't featured FFA PvP ?
Don't you think if it would have such as ruleset you would not have been enjoyed an easy dancer's life or easy harvester's life without you wanting to gain some pvp skill to defend yourself ?
See you can try to be crafter only in Darkfall too, without ever bother to skill up weapon skills because it IS a sandbox, it just has FFA PvP ruleset and you have to live with the consequences and die often. You have the freedom to be a defensless crafter, just because the freedom is given to anyone no one likes to be defenseless tho and most if not all grab some weapon to PvP. (we have a pacifist in clan and he just crafts and gathers, he has a hard life but he is strict to his beliefs and don't even "harm" other people even if its pixels)
It is a design choice, SWG was missing that freedom you couldnt attack at will, thats why you could have just ignored to gained any other skill and play a crafter only.
DarkFall on the other hand has its PvP, sandbox style, attack anyone at will. It maybe not offers all the elements but it could without a problem. Whats would hold back the devs to put dancing skill in ? What would devs hold back put more sort of minerals in ? The design is not a hinderance, DsrkFall is a sanbox through and through, just you don't like the elements that are in.
I wonder on the other hand if you put freedom in SWG and allow free PvP , would it work ? would it have been "sandboxy" for you ?
The difference of a game being sandbox..for me... is that each choice has a completely different experience.
Take (PreCU) SWG for example:
I could choose to be one of a handful of different races... start on different planets, each with their own unique look and ecosystem... pursue a multitude of different career choices.
Bounty Hunter, Doctor, Creature Handler, Entertainer, Droid Engineer; 31 professions in all, with a multitude of skill-trees in each.
Mix and match how you want or completely specialize with one. You could be heavy into crafting,prospecting, mining, or engaging in the Galactic Civil War. Or just someone who liked to play the markets. You could settle down and build a small house, or a large Rebel Base to engage the Empire... It was all possible.
Every choice played completely different than the others. No choice was dictated by the game. THAT is a sandbox.
As opposed to DarkFall:
Suppose I want to be Alfar. What is my primary choice? Kill goblins or PvP other players.
Suppose I want to be Mahirim. What is my primary choice? Kill goblins or PvP other players.
Suppose I want to be Human. What is my primary choice? Kill goblins or PvP other players.
Suppose I want to be... well you probably get the point.
O.K. How about if I want to just craft instead. That will surely be different.
Suppose I want to be an Alfar Tailor. What is my primary choice for Tailoring? Grind mobs or players for gold and raw materials, then craft bags/sacks or Cloth Armor from skill 0-24. Good luck in trying to sell any of it.
Suppose I want to be an Mahirim Tailor. What is my primary choice for Tailoring? Grind mobs or players for gold and raw materials, then craft bags/sacks or Cloth Armor from skill 0-24. Good luck in trying to sell any of it.
Suppose I want to be an Human Tailor. What is my primary choice for Tailoring? Grind mobs or players for gold and raw materials, then craft bags/sacks or Cloth Armor from skill 0-24. Good luck in trying to sell any of it.
Suppose I want to be... hmm... seems like it turned out the same as before. That's odd.
The same scenario plays out no matter which Crafting profession you choose. The only difference is that you may have to grind nodes for raw materials as opposed to mobs or players.
O.K. I know I'll just run around and explore and see what I can find to do. Afterall it's a Sandbox game with a large world to explore, that will surely be different.
Heh... well you all know how this turns out too.
No matter where you go, or what choices you make... it all ends up the same. THAT is my point about DarkFall not being a Sandbox. Each choice eventually leads to the same place and the same experiences.
The uniqueness among the races is missing (other than Mahirim being screwed for being so large)... no matter which race you play they all have the same experience. You WILL end up grinding mobs and/or resouces. During your grinding you may get to PvP. Hmm... doesn't seem very Sandbox.
The PvP in DarkFall is all it has going for it. For some that is enough... for more and more it is becoming obvious that it is not.
All roads in DarkFall's "SandBox" lead to the same destination... for me... that is NOT a sandbox.
I don't know about the hostile answers but I do know having to complete a simple tutorial doesn't make a game not a sandbox. By those criteria no game is a sandbox. Sorry even in a sandbox there are things you will be forced to do.
On the first point I agree, all games needs a tutorial and DF can add a lot more to that. Even a sandbox should have a tutorial where you learn the game, or you will loose most of the games potential players at the first few days.
However should you not be forced to do anything, tutorials are for first time players and you should be able to skip them if you don't want to play them.
Yeah but being forced to repeat the tutorial is just poor design. It doesn't exclude a game from being a sandbox. This discussion really isn't about what is and isn't a sandbox. It's about twisting some bizarre definition no one else agrees to so they can insult a game that doesn't need some nonsensical label applied to it to point out it's many flaws.
Umm... I think I agree.
Basically, we are NEVER all going to agree what makes a MMO a sandbox game... let alone what makes it a GOOD SandBox MMO.
Suffice it to say that for some of us posting in this particular forum of mmorpg.com:
DarkFall is a good enough game that we have fun playing it despite it's problems.
For others it is severely lacking in crucial areas that until they are remedied we will NOT have any fun playing it.
For me anyway that is what it boils down to.
Kudos for those who are having fun playing it currently. I will still lobby to get the parts added and/or changed that I deem important to me. Until then, I will wait.
Thankfully we have a site like mmorpg.com to express our opinions so that others have the pleasure of reading them as well.
All these claims for a sandbox, all these pretenses that DF attracts SWG/UO players.
At the end of the day, DF is not for the majority. It is a game for ffa pvp.
In order to pursue ffa pvp, you give up the majority
In order to pursue ffa pvp, you make it hard for people to pursue careers not supporting clan/gang pvp, so no cantina dancing career of SWG, no doctor healing in hospitals career of SWG.
In order to pursue ffa pvp, new comers are thrown into the sure death trap of a fixed location starter zone.
In order to pursue ffa pvp, you must kill goblins, and then? kill goblins.
All in the name of ffa pvp. In order to pursue ffa pvp, your idea of sandbox is everyone must join clan, and play according to the standard way. The sandbox world is just an excuse for everyone to conform and ... and what? ffa pvp for the win.
What is DF? ffa pvp, indeed true. What is DF? Only ffa pvp. Ouch ...
The thing is that the game advertised in their webpage could have been a sandbox. The game implemented is not a sandbox, and is more limited in what to do than the vast majority of the "themeparks" out there
DF has the basis and has some features of a sandbox. It's just not, in its current state, a very good example of one.
The simple fact is too many tools for the players are missing, as has been said, there is a game here but all roads kind of lead to one place. For some that enough and the elements that take you there are for the most part free willed. However it is still a fairly narrow road.
After character creation you can potentially do, become and participate in pretty much anything anyone else can be or do, this gives it sandbox value. BUT as it stands right now the choices and options of what those traits and activities might be are really far too slim.
I have no doubt (well maybe a little, their decisions on banks and banking its fked) that if enough people stick with it ,over time they can add more and make a really decent game but right now for many (including myself) there simply isn't enough there. Which is a huge shame because in practice a lot of what they are missing is ruleset and smaller function than what they currently have already with regards to their end game. I'm not sure I like sandboxes with an planned end game.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
1. Find some pals and all together delete every quests you have. 2. Explore until you find treasure chests or fruit trees or toolboxes or every other container that has items. 3. Sell them if you want to and get money or just use them to craft or fight. With these simple tricks you can play DF without spilling a drop of blood and without going to the goblins. But it is hard to be a pacifist in DF.
Yea funny thinmg is we even have a pacifist in our clan. if that is not sandbox then sandbox has no meaning. There is someone denying to take part on the cetral aspect of the game and stil has fun playing the game the way he wants it even without PvP-ing.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
1. Find some pals and all together delete every quests you have. 2. Explore until you find treasure chests or fruit trees or toolboxes or every other container that has items. 3. Sell them if you want to and get money or just use them to craft or fight. With these simple tricks you can play DF without spilling a drop of blood and without going to the goblins. But it is hard to be a pacifist in DF.
Yea funny thinmg is we even have a pacifist in our clan. if that is not sandbox then sandbox has no meaning. There is someone denying to take part on the cetral aspect of the game and stil has fun playing the game the way he wants it even without PvP-ing.
Darth if its your clan then that pretty much sets the standards for the ppl in it, im not surprised there is ppl in your clan having fun just running against walls.
A counterstrike-clone scenary, with a big map, in a fantasy setting and some cosmetic elements added to trick potential customers into thinking that is a MMORPG
A counterstrike-clone scenary, with a big map, in a fantasy setting and some cosmetic elements added to trick potential customers into thinking that is a MMORPG
Could that sort of logic not be used to describe any game? "WoW, oh yeah is just a counterstrike a few huge maps, they've even taken out the fps element to make it easier and added a couple of npc's to tell you the map objectives instead of last man standing arenas, which they do also have'. When you break down any game we will all just get depressed for having bothered.
The whole is far greater than the sum of its part, SWG was proof of this. Bugs and imbalance, but a work of art.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
So because goblins are the weakest enemy and mob and the most promising way to start playing the game it is not a sandbox lol No one will hinder you go exploring and starting on trolls or vampires, zombies, invading a player city and start hacking at someone etc. Its just the game points you to a successfully and promising path lol You also could ask for 20 gold in public and may be given that lol because it is a sandbox and its on players to make content.
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
I am a SWG vet myself, are you aware of the fact the SWG didn't featured FFA PvP ?
Don't you think if it would have such as ruleset you would not have been enjoyed an easy dancer's life or easy harvester's life without you wanting to gain some pvp skill to defend yourself ?
See you can try to be crafter only in Darkfall too, without ever bother to skill up weapon skills because it IS a sandbox, it just has FFA PvP ruleset and you have to live with the consequences and die often. You have the freedom to be a defensless crafter, just because the freedom is given to anyone no one likes to be defenseless tho and most if not all grab some weapon to PvP. (we have a pacifist in clan and he just crafts and gathers, he has a hard life but he is strict to his beliefs and don't even "harm" other people even if its pixels)
It is a design choice, SWG was missing that freedom you couldnt attack at will, thats why you could have just ignored to gained any other skill and play a crafter only.
DarkFall on the other hand has its PvP, sandbox style, attack anyone at will. It maybe not offers all the elements but it could without a problem. Whats would hold back the devs to put dancing skill in ? What would devs hold back put more sort of minerals in ? The design is not a hinderance, DsrkFall is a sanbox through and through, just you don't like the elements that are in.
I wonder on the other hand if you put freedom in SWG and allow free PvP , would it work ? would it have been "sandboxy" for you ?
Yes I think it would have worked. UO is a prime example. It worked when there was FFA PVP full loot. And you could do/be anything you wanted. However, if you think DF is a sandbox, you must have not played a real one.
SWG wasn't one ?
Would you check you harvester without having any skill in weapons like you did with only dancer skills under full loot conditions ?
SWG and DF are of same kind, sandboxes with different weight on some elements and i give you that DF may offering fewer to your liking but you cant talking it out of sandbox. Devs could put in taming, then you would let your pets attack for you. Design decision, leaded to the decision that has cut that out.
SWG was one...I was just responding to your tangent argument suggesting that SWG would not have worked with FFA PVP. I think it would have. It would have been quite a different game, but it would have worked. However, they would have needed to work out consequences for attacking someone of your own faction (rebel, imperial, etc).
Just because DF has FFA PVP does not categorize it as a sandbox....anymore than it being multiplayer suggest it is an MMORPG. It's more of a static Multiplayer FPS (and a bad one at that) than an MMORPG. Where is the roleplaying in this game when the chat/social interaction is so poorly done? It's a BAD FPS (hell, it's not even consistent here...melee combat is entirely in third person) in a fantasy setting trying to pass itself off as an MMO. Sanbox you say? BF2 is more of a sandbox than this game.
The first questline takes about an hour and by the time your done you have been introduced to most of the important mechanics.But remember Darkfall is a guild v guild game at heart, this isn't for everyone. If your the sort of player who doesn't want to join a guild or talk to other players or be ganked then its not the game for you. There are many many many MMOs aimed at solo players, this just isn't one. Variety is the spice of life and all that.
I didn't ask though whether it's a guild vs guild or if it is a group game or not. I asked what other alternatives exist apart from hacking goblins.
The "this game isn't for everyone" imo is overused.
To restate it, I don't care if the activities need a group or not. After all if they need a group I will find one. I ask the alternatives of goblin killing for a new player.
lol. you went from an innocent new player looking for help to this. Now I see where you are going with this thread.
There are tutorials in Darkfall too, called quests. If you follow them, you will be given some basic weapons and gathering equipment. Also, this equipment is fairly cheap, 20 gold for a pickaxe for example.
We all have to start somewhere. Being a sandbox does not mean you will be able to start the game with the ability to instantly own a city. Work your way up, or join a clan and get some help.
Wait, did you say there was tutorials in Darkfall...? lmao...
(Honestly, you have to be an incredible newb to believe that..!! Given some very elaborate tutorials in other games)
___________________________
- Knowledge is power, ive been in school for 28 years!
1. Find some pals and all together delete every quests you have. 2. Explore until you find treasure chests or fruit trees or toolboxes or every other container that has items. 3. Sell them if you want to and get money or just use them to craft or fight. With these simple tricks you can play DF without spilling a drop of blood and without going to the goblins. But it is hard to be a pacifist in DF.
Yea funny thinmg is we even have a pacifist in our clan. if that is not sandbox then sandbox has no meaning. There is someone denying to take part on the cetral aspect of the game and stil has fun playing the game the way he wants it even without PvP-ing.
How many PvE only people play this game...? Thus, it's not a sandbox. To be a Sandbox, you should be able to play any ROLE you want. You cannot, you must be a melee person, who uses magic. and wear armor.
Like everyone else.
If this game was a sanbox, you would see hundred if not thousands of players playing Clerics, sorceres excusively. You don't... you fail!
___________________________
- Knowledge is power, ive been in school for 28 years!
Comments
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
Pretty baseless arguement you got going there.
I got an idea.
Play UO without being a human or an Elf.
Or play Ryzom and be a spaceship.
Play SWG and be an Orc.
Just because Eve uses ships as an avatar doesn't mean CCP didn't provide tools for players to actually play in a sandbox.
And just because a game doesn't uses classes doesn't make it a sandbox either.
A sandbox should be open ended gameplay with player drven content. The devs still have to provide the means by wich players can build the content. That's the "fluff" as some of you DFO fanatics are apt to call it. Unfortunetly for some of you, it's that fluff that makes the dif. between a good game and a bad one. The fluff allows players to deviate from the norm, to do something other then grind, and removes a lot of the linear feel of gameplay.
EQ2 has more of a sanbox feel the DFO does, but no one would call it a sandbox.
I played Lineage 2 for a couple years from release, DFO is VERY similliar to that game. In fact, it's build on the exact same premise. FFA pvp, with a focus on clan warfare and territory control. Lineage 2 isn't a sandbox, and the only dif. between these two games is that L2 uses classes; while DFO doesn't. (yeah, yeah, FPS combat) The very biggest dif. between these two is, L2 released with considerably more content then DFO did.
DFO isn't a sandbox game. It's a clan based pvp game and nothing more.
It provides NOTHING outside of that.
DFO is linear gameplay; everything about the game is geared towards clan pvp.
That's not sandbox.
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
On the first point I agree, all games needs a tutorial and DF can add a lot more to that. Even a sandbox should have a tutorial where you learn the game, or you will loose most of the games potential players at the first few days.
However should you not be forced to do anything, tutorials are for first time players and you should be able to skip them if you don't want to play them.
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
I am a SWG vet myself, are you aware of the fact the SWG didn't featured FFA PvP ?
Don't you think if it would have such as ruleset you would not have been enjoyed an easy dancer's life or easy harvester's life without you wanting to gain some pvp skill to defend yourself ?
See you can try to be crafter only in Darkfall too, without ever bother to skill up weapon skills because it IS a sandbox, it just has FFA PvP ruleset and you have to live with the consequences and die often. You have the freedom to be a defensless crafter, just because the freedom is given to anyone no one likes to be defenseless tho and most if not all grab some weapon to PvP. (we have a pacifist in clan and he just crafts and gathers, he has a hard life but he is strict to his beliefs and don't even "harm" other people even if its pixels)
It is a design choice, SWG was missing that freedom you couldnt attack at will, thats why you could have just ignored to gained any other skill and play a crafter only.
DarkFall on the other hand has its PvP, sandbox style, attack anyone at will. It maybe not offers all the elements but it could without a problem. Whats would hold back the devs to put dancing skill in ? What would devs hold back put more sort of minerals in ? The design is not a hinderance, DsrkFall is a sanbox through and through, just you don't like the elements that are in.
I wonder on the other hand if you put freedom in SWG and allow free PvP , would it work ? would it have been "sandboxy" for you ?
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
I am a SWG vet myself, are you aware of the fact the SWG didn't featured FFA PvP ?
Don't you think if it would have such as ruleset you would not have been enjoyed an easy dancer's life or easy harvester's life without you wanting to gain some pvp skill to defend yourself ?
See you can try to be crafter only in Darkfall too, without ever bother to skill up weapon skills because it IS a sandbox, it just has FFA PvP ruleset and you have to live with the consequences and die often. You have the freedom to be a defensless crafter, just because the freedom is given to anyone no one likes to be defenseless tho and most if not all grab some weapon to PvP. (we have a pacifist in clan and he just crafts and gathers, he has a hard life but he is strict to his beliefs and don't even "harm" other people even if its pixels)
It is a design choice, SWG was missing that freedom you couldnt attack at will, thats why you could have just ignored to gained any other skill and play a crafter only.
DarkFall on the other hand has its PvP, sandbox style, attack anyone at will. It maybe not offers all the elements but it could without a problem. Whats would hold back the devs to put dancing skill in ? What would devs hold back put more sort of minerals in ? The design is not a hinderance, DsrkFall is a sanbox through and through, just you don't like the elements that are in.
I wonder on the other hand if you put freedom in SWG and allow free PvP , would it work ? would it have been "sandboxy" for you ?
Yes I think it would have worked. UO is a prime example. It worked when there was FFA PVP full loot. And you could do/be anything you wanted. However, if you think DF is a sandbox, you must have not played a real one.
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
I am a SWG vet myself, are you aware of the fact the SWG didn't featured FFA PvP ?
Don't you think if it would have such as ruleset you would not have been enjoyed an easy dancer's life or easy harvester's life without you wanting to gain some pvp skill to defend yourself ?
See you can try to be crafter only in Darkfall too, without ever bother to skill up weapon skills because it IS a sandbox, it just has FFA PvP ruleset and you have to live with the consequences and die often. You have the freedom to be a defensless crafter, just because the freedom is given to anyone no one likes to be defenseless tho and most if not all grab some weapon to PvP. (we have a pacifist in clan and he just crafts and gathers, he has a hard life but he is strict to his beliefs and don't even "harm" other people even if its pixels)
It is a design choice, SWG was missing that freedom you couldnt attack at will, thats why you could have just ignored to gained any other skill and play a crafter only.
DarkFall on the other hand has its PvP, sandbox style, attack anyone at will. It maybe not offers all the elements but it could without a problem. Whats would hold back the devs to put dancing skill in ? What would devs hold back put more sort of minerals in ? The design is not a hinderance, DsrkFall is a sanbox through and through, just you don't like the elements that are in.
I wonder on the other hand if you put freedom in SWG and allow free PvP , would it work ? would it have been "sandboxy" for you ?
Yes I think it would have worked. UO is a prime example. It worked when there was FFA PVP full loot. And you could do/be anything you wanted. However, if you think DF is a sandbox, you must have not played a real one.
SWG wasn't one ?
Would you check you harvester without having any skill in weapons like you did with only dancer skills under full loot conditions ?
SWG and DF are of same kind, sandboxes with different weight on some elements and i give you that DF may offering fewer to your liking but you cant talking it out of sandbox. Devs could put in taming, then you would let your pets attack for you. Design decision, leaded to the decision that has cut that out.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
I am a SWG vet myself, are you aware of the fact the SWG didn't featured FFA PvP ?
Don't you think if it would have such as ruleset you would not have been enjoyed an easy dancer's life or easy harvester's life without you wanting to gain some pvp skill to defend yourself ?
See you can try to be crafter only in Darkfall too, without ever bother to skill up weapon skills because it IS a sandbox, it just has FFA PvP ruleset and you have to live with the consequences and die often. You have the freedom to be a defensless crafter, just because the freedom is given to anyone no one likes to be defenseless tho and most if not all grab some weapon to PvP. (we have a pacifist in clan and he just crafts and gathers, he has a hard life but he is strict to his beliefs and don't even "harm" other people even if its pixels)
It is a design choice, SWG was missing that freedom you couldnt attack at will, thats why you could have just ignored to gained any other skill and play a crafter only.
DarkFall on the other hand has its PvP, sandbox style, attack anyone at will. It maybe not offers all the elements but it could without a problem. Whats would hold back the devs to put dancing skill in ? What would devs hold back put more sort of minerals in ? The design is not a hinderance, DsrkFall is a sanbox through and through, just you don't like the elements that are in.
I wonder on the other hand if you put freedom in SWG and allow free PvP , would it work ? would it have been "sandboxy" for you ?
Yes I think it would have worked. UO is a prime example. It worked when there was FFA PVP full loot. And you could do/be anything you wanted. However, if you think DF is a sandbox, you must have not played a real one.
SWG wasn't one ?
Would you check you harvester without having any skill in weapons like you did with only dancer skills under full loot conditions ?
SWG and DF are of same kind, sandboxes with different weight on some elements and i give you that DF may offering fewer to your liking but you cant talking it out of sandbox. Devs could put in taming, then you would let your pets attack for you. Design decision, leaded to the decision that has cut that out.
You're right, except that Darkfall isn't a sandbox as has already been pointed out numerous times in this very thread. You blinding repeating your "lalalalala - I can't hear you - yes, it is!" mantra doesn't make it so.
~Ripper
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
I am a SWG vet myself, are you aware of the fact the SWG didn't featured FFA PvP ?
Don't you think if it would have such as ruleset you would not have been enjoyed an easy dancer's life or easy harvester's life without you wanting to gain some pvp skill to defend yourself ?
See you can try to be crafter only in Darkfall too, without ever bother to skill up weapon skills because it IS a sandbox, it just has FFA PvP ruleset and you have to live with the consequences and die often. You have the freedom to be a defensless crafter, just because the freedom is given to anyone no one likes to be defenseless tho and most if not all grab some weapon to PvP. (we have a pacifist in clan and he just crafts and gathers, he has a hard life but he is strict to his beliefs and don't even "harm" other people even if its pixels)
It is a design choice, SWG was missing that freedom you couldnt attack at will, thats why you could have just ignored to gained any other skill and play a crafter only.
DarkFall on the other hand has its PvP, sandbox style, attack anyone at will. It maybe not offers all the elements but it could without a problem. Whats would hold back the devs to put dancing skill in ? What would devs hold back put more sort of minerals in ? The design is not a hinderance, DsrkFall is a sanbox through and through, just you don't like the elements that are in.
I wonder on the other hand if you put freedom in SWG and allow free PvP , would it work ? would it have been "sandboxy" for you ?
Yes I think it would have worked. UO is a prime example. It worked when there was FFA PVP full loot. And you could do/be anything you wanted. However, if you think DF is a sandbox, you must have not played a real one.
SWG wasn't one ?
Would you check you harvester without having any skill in weapons like you did with only dancer skills under full loot conditions ?
SWG and DF are of same kind, sandboxes with different weight on some elements and i give you that DF may offering fewer to your liking but you cant talking it out of sandbox. Devs could put in taming, then you would let your pets attack for you. Design decision, leaded to the decision that has cut that out.
DFO is no more a sandbox then Lineage 2.
They are exactly the same form of game.
The only dif. is DFO is skill based and L2 is class based.
Come to think of it.
No one playing Darkfall has the right to call others a carebear.
I was playing L2 when it came out.
L2 was HARDCORE. DFO is a pansy game compared to it.
I spent MONTHS earning the money to buy a full set of armor, and then lost it trying to take a shortcut to another town. Killed by a skeleton.
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
I am a SWG vet myself, are you aware of the fact the SWG didn't featured FFA PvP ?
Don't you think if it would have such as ruleset you would not have been enjoyed an easy dancer's life or easy harvester's life without you wanting to gain some pvp skill to defend yourself ?
See you can try to be crafter only in Darkfall too, without ever bother to skill up weapon skills because it IS a sandbox, it just has FFA PvP ruleset and you have to live with the consequences and die often. You have the freedom to be a defensless crafter, just because the freedom is given to anyone no one likes to be defenseless tho and most if not all grab some weapon to PvP. (we have a pacifist in clan and he just crafts and gathers, he has a hard life but he is strict to his beliefs and don't even "harm" other people even if its pixels)
It is a design choice, SWG was missing that freedom you couldnt attack at will, thats why you could have just ignored to gained any other skill and play a crafter only.
DarkFall on the other hand has its PvP, sandbox style, attack anyone at will. It maybe not offers all the elements but it could without a problem. Whats would hold back the devs to put dancing skill in ? What would devs hold back put more sort of minerals in ? The design is not a hinderance, DsrkFall is a sanbox through and through, just you don't like the elements that are in.
I wonder on the other hand if you put freedom in SWG and allow free PvP , would it work ? would it have been "sandboxy" for you ?
The difference of a game being sandbox..for me... is that each choice has a completely different experience.
Take (PreCU) SWG for example:
I could choose to be one of a handful of different races... start on different planets, each with their own unique look and ecosystem... pursue a multitude of different career choices.
Bounty Hunter, Doctor, Creature Handler, Entertainer, Droid Engineer; 31 professions in all, with a multitude of skill-trees in each.
Mix and match how you want or completely specialize with one. You could be heavy into crafting,prospecting, mining, or engaging in the Galactic Civil War. Or just someone who liked to play the markets. You could settle down and build a small house, or a large Rebel Base to engage the Empire... It was all possible.
Every choice played completely different than the others. No choice was dictated by the game. THAT is a sandbox.
As opposed to DarkFall:
Suppose I want to be Alfar. What is my primary choice? Kill goblins or PvP other players.
Suppose I want to be Mahirim. What is my primary choice? Kill goblins or PvP other players.
Suppose I want to be Human. What is my primary choice? Kill goblins or PvP other players.
Suppose I want to be... well you probably get the point.
O.K. How about if I want to just craft instead. That will surely be different.
Suppose I want to be an Alfar Tailor. What is my primary choice for Tailoring? Grind mobs or players for gold and raw materials, then craft bags/sacks or Cloth Armor from skill 0-24. Good luck in trying to sell any of it.
Suppose I want to be an Mahirim Tailor. What is my primary choice for Tailoring? Grind mobs or players for gold and raw materials, then craft bags/sacks or Cloth Armor from skill 0-24. Good luck in trying to sell any of it.
Suppose I want to be an Human Tailor. What is my primary choice for Tailoring? Grind mobs or players for gold and raw materials, then craft bags/sacks or Cloth Armor from skill 0-24. Good luck in trying to sell any of it.
Suppose I want to be... hmm... seems like it turned out the same as before. That's odd.
The same scenario plays out no matter which Crafting profession you choose. The only difference is that you may have to grind nodes for raw materials as opposed to mobs or players.
O.K. I know I'll just run around and explore and see what I can find to do. Afterall it's a Sandbox game with a large world to explore, that will surely be different.
Heh... well you all know how this turns out too.
No matter where you go, or what choices you make... it all ends up the same. THAT is my point about DarkFall not being a Sandbox. Each choice eventually leads to the same place and the same experiences.
The uniqueness among the races is missing (other than Mahirim being screwed for being so large)... no matter which race you play they all have the same experience. You WILL end up grinding mobs and/or resouces. During your grinding you may get to PvP. Hmm... doesn't seem very Sandbox.
The PvP in DarkFall is all it has going for it. For some that is enough... for more and more it is becoming obvious that it is not.
All roads in DarkFall's "SandBox" lead to the same destination... for me... that is NOT a sandbox.
On the first point I agree, all games needs a tutorial and DF can add a lot more to that. Even a sandbox should have a tutorial where you learn the game, or you will loose most of the games potential players at the first few days.
However should you not be forced to do anything, tutorials are for first time players and you should be able to skip them if you don't want to play them.
Yeah but being forced to repeat the tutorial is just poor design. It doesn't exclude a game from being a sandbox. This discussion really isn't about what is and isn't a sandbox. It's about twisting some bizarre definition no one else agrees to so they can insult a game that doesn't need some nonsensical label applied to it to point out it's many flaws.
Umm... I think I agree.
Basically, we are NEVER all going to agree what makes a MMO a sandbox game... let alone what makes it a GOOD SandBox MMO.
Suffice it to say that for some of us posting in this particular forum of mmorpg.com:
DarkFall is a good enough game that we have fun playing it despite it's problems.
For others it is severely lacking in crucial areas that until they are remedied we will NOT have any fun playing it.
For me anyway that is what it boils down to.
Kudos for those who are having fun playing it currently. I will still lobby to get the parts added and/or changed that I deem important to me. Until then, I will wait.
Thankfully we have a site like mmorpg.com to express our opinions so that others have the pleasure of reading them as well.
All these claims for a sandbox, all these pretenses that DF attracts SWG/UO players.
At the end of the day, DF is not for the majority. It is a game for ffa pvp.
In order to pursue ffa pvp, you give up the majority
In order to pursue ffa pvp, you make it hard for people to pursue careers not supporting clan/gang pvp, so no cantina dancing career of SWG, no doctor healing in hospitals career of SWG.
In order to pursue ffa pvp, new comers are thrown into the sure death trap of a fixed location starter zone.
In order to pursue ffa pvp, you must kill goblins, and then? kill goblins.
All in the name of ffa pvp. In order to pursue ffa pvp, your idea of sandbox is everyone must join clan, and play according to the standard way. The sandbox world is just an excuse for everyone to conform and ... and what? ffa pvp for the win.
What is DF? ffa pvp, indeed true. What is DF? Only ffa pvp. Ouch ...
The thing is that the game advertised in their webpage could have been a sandbox.
The game implemented is not a sandbox, and is more limited in what to do than the vast majority of the "themeparks" out there
1. Find some pals and all together delete every quests you have.
2. Explore until you find treasure chests or fruit trees or toolboxes or every other container that has items.
3. Sell them if you want to and get money or just use them to craft or fight.
With these simple tricks you can play DF without spilling a drop of blood and without going to the goblins. But it is hard to be a pacifist in DF.
DF has the basis and has some features of a sandbox. It's just not, in its current state, a very good example of one.
The simple fact is too many tools for the players are missing, as has been said, there is a game here but all roads kind of lead to one place. For some that enough and the elements that take you there are for the most part free willed. However it is still a fairly narrow road.
After character creation you can potentially do, become and participate in pretty much anything anyone else can be or do, this gives it sandbox value. BUT as it stands right now the choices and options of what those traits and activities might be are really far too slim.
I have no doubt (well maybe a little, their decisions on banks and banking its fked) that if enough people stick with it ,over time they can add more and make a really decent game but right now for many (including myself) there simply isn't enough there. Which is a huge shame because in practice a lot of what they are missing is ruleset and smaller function than what they currently have already with regards to their end game. I'm not sure I like sandboxes with an planned end game.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Yea funny thinmg is we even have a pacifist in our clan. if that is not sandbox then sandbox has no meaning. There is someone denying to take part on the cetral aspect of the game and stil has fun playing the game the way he wants it even without PvP-ing.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Yea funny thinmg is we even have a pacifist in our clan. if that is not sandbox then sandbox has no meaning. There is someone denying to take part on the cetral aspect of the game and stil has fun playing the game the way he wants it even without PvP-ing.
Darth if its your clan then that pretty much sets the standards for the ppl in it, im not surprised there is ppl in your clan having fun just running against walls.
Then wtf is it?
A counterstrike-clone scenary, with a big map, in a fantasy setting and some cosmetic elements added to trick potential customers into thinking that is a MMORPG
Could that sort of logic not be used to describe any game? "WoW, oh yeah is just a counterstrike a few huge maps, they've even taken out the fps element to make it easier and added a couple of npc's to tell you the map objectives instead of last man standing arenas, which they do also have'. When you break down any game we will all just get depressed for having bothered.
The whole is far greater than the sum of its part, SWG was proof of this. Bugs and imbalance, but a work of art.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I thought sandboxes didn't actually point you in a path. That's kind of linear, right? Thanks for pointing that out Darth. By your own admission, Darkfall is not a sandbox...lol
You thought wrong. All computer games are programmed with limited options. You can't program in any other way.
Um, no, but good try. A sandbox gives you the keys to to do many things. It doesn't "point" you in any certain direction. At least, that fits into my definition of sandbox. Your's may be different....and wrong...lol
Then your definition is a fantasy and doesn't fit any game that has ever been or can ever be made. Don't believe me? Try playing Eve without piloting a ship.
I played SWG from day one of it's launch. I stopped playing the day after the CU went live.
SWG was a sandbox. From day one you could be an entertainer and never pick up a weapon or kill a mob. If you chose to, you could have spent your entire MMO life in the cantina dancing your life away.
Granted, that was not my choice... Pistoleer/Creature Handler/Ranger here. Spent most of my time out in the wilds looking for new creatures to tame. Did quite a bit of prospecting and looking for that perfect mineral deposit as well.
Anyway, for me the perfect sandbox did exist... sadly no more... but it was there for a time.
The point is the same though; the options available to a new player from day one in SWG were expotentially higher than what DarkFall offers.
In fact the difference is so great that a person would be justified in saying that DarkFall is not even the same league. Or in other words... not a sandbox.
I am a SWG vet myself, are you aware of the fact the SWG didn't featured FFA PvP ?
Don't you think if it would have such as ruleset you would not have been enjoyed an easy dancer's life or easy harvester's life without you wanting to gain some pvp skill to defend yourself ?
See you can try to be crafter only in Darkfall too, without ever bother to skill up weapon skills because it IS a sandbox, it just has FFA PvP ruleset and you have to live with the consequences and die often. You have the freedom to be a defensless crafter, just because the freedom is given to anyone no one likes to be defenseless tho and most if not all grab some weapon to PvP. (we have a pacifist in clan and he just crafts and gathers, he has a hard life but he is strict to his beliefs and don't even "harm" other people even if its pixels)
It is a design choice, SWG was missing that freedom you couldnt attack at will, thats why you could have just ignored to gained any other skill and play a crafter only.
DarkFall on the other hand has its PvP, sandbox style, attack anyone at will. It maybe not offers all the elements but it could without a problem. Whats would hold back the devs to put dancing skill in ? What would devs hold back put more sort of minerals in ? The design is not a hinderance, DsrkFall is a sanbox through and through, just you don't like the elements that are in.
I wonder on the other hand if you put freedom in SWG and allow free PvP , would it work ? would it have been "sandboxy" for you ?
Yes I think it would have worked. UO is a prime example. It worked when there was FFA PVP full loot. And you could do/be anything you wanted. However, if you think DF is a sandbox, you must have not played a real one.
SWG wasn't one ?
Would you check you harvester without having any skill in weapons like you did with only dancer skills under full loot conditions ?
SWG and DF are of same kind, sandboxes with different weight on some elements and i give you that DF may offering fewer to your liking but you cant talking it out of sandbox. Devs could put in taming, then you would let your pets attack for you. Design decision, leaded to the decision that has cut that out.
SWG was one...I was just responding to your tangent argument suggesting that SWG would not have worked with FFA PVP. I think it would have. It would have been quite a different game, but it would have worked. However, they would have needed to work out consequences for attacking someone of your own faction (rebel, imperial, etc).
Just because DF has FFA PVP does not categorize it as a sandbox....anymore than it being multiplayer suggest it is an MMORPG. It's more of a static Multiplayer FPS (and a bad one at that) than an MMORPG. Where is the roleplaying in this game when the chat/social interaction is so poorly done? It's a BAD FPS (hell, it's not even consistent here...melee combat is entirely in third person) in a fantasy setting trying to pass itself off as an MMO. Sanbox you say? BF2 is more of a sandbox than this game.
I didn't ask though whether it's a guild vs guild or if it is a group game or not. I asked what other alternatives exist apart from hacking goblins.
The "this game isn't for everyone" imo is overused.
To restate it, I don't care if the activities need a group or not. After all if they need a group I will find one. I ask the alternatives of goblin killing for a new player.
lol. you went from an innocent new player looking for help to this. Now I see where you are going with this thread.
There are tutorials in Darkfall too, called quests. If you follow them, you will be given some basic weapons and gathering equipment. Also, this equipment is fairly cheap, 20 gold for a pickaxe for example.
We all have to start somewhere. Being a sandbox does not mean you will be able to start the game with the ability to instantly own a city. Work your way up, or join a clan and get some help.
Wait, did you say there was tutorials in Darkfall...? lmao...
(Honestly, you have to be an incredible newb to believe that..!! Given some very elaborate tutorials in other games)
___________________________
- Knowledge is power, ive been in school for 28 years!
Yea funny thinmg is we even have a pacifist in our clan. if that is not sandbox then sandbox has no meaning. There is someone denying to take part on the cetral aspect of the game and stil has fun playing the game the way he wants it even without PvP-ing.
How many PvE only people play this game...? Thus, it's not a sandbox. To be a Sandbox, you should be able to play any ROLE you want. You cannot, you must be a melee person, who uses magic. and wear armor.
Like everyone else.
If this game was a sanbox, you would see hundred if not thousands of players playing Clerics, sorceres excusively. You don't... you fail!
___________________________
- Knowledge is power, ive been in school for 28 years!