You, I, and others are simply used to MMORPGS now. People new to the genre will still be captivated by them, and stick at one for some time. Those of us who have been playing for a decade know them inside out. We know the underlying mechanics, we know what to expect, for the most part.
Remember when driving your car was fun? Any excuse to go out for a drive. 15 years later it's not so fun, traffic is a chore, the roads are clogged, petrol is expensive.
There is nothing wrong with the mmo industry. There is an amazing choice that simply didn't exist 10 years ago. There are some fantastic quality games on the market with oodles of content. The problem is you.
If you eat nothing but chips you will soon become bored of chips.
Disagree whole heartedly. MMOs today are made with half or less the content of the predecessors. MMOs today are made with easy crafting, easy material collection, specified end game raiding areas, and no need to explore or investigate. It is quite clear to me that mmos today are made with a much shorter lifespan so that the ADD generation market plays mmos. It is simply a change in target market segments. Those of us who desire a complex game that lasts for years are the obvious minority. MMOs aren't made for us anymore. Theyr'e made for an entirely different audience.
If MMOs went back to long grinds, lousy UIs, unintuitve gameplay systems with no direction and lots of repetition with slow character growth, I simply wouldn't play. I'd be out. I never wanted to play a single MMO for years and never will.
Its like my experience with Mass Effect currently. I began on Veteran, because I play every game on the hardest setting. After hitting a road block at one of the bosses, I switched to normal mode and beat her fairly easily. Afterwards I realized, beating her on normal was no less fun than fighting her on Veteran. The difference was, I didn't have to fight her 10 freakin times getting one shotted, wondering how I died and feeling fairly frustrated. Instead the fight was really fun ONCE. I didn't bother switching the difficulty back to Veteran because I realized its not MORE fun when the game feels tedious. One way or another I'm going to beat it. Taking 2X as long, dying 2X as much does not fill me with any more satisfaction. The story isn't BETTER on Veteran mode. I won't accomplish more of less. Taking longer only delays my ability to play the 3 other games I have wrapped in a drawer that I'm looking forward to playing.
15 years ago, that wouldn't have been my attitude. I would've kept cranking away on hard mode because I'd get some freak satisfaction out of it and now, I realize its an empty feeling. Its pointless. Nobody cares. Its NOT an accomplishment. Spending triple the time for the same ending only means I spent 2 times as long playing and you know what, thats a waste of time now. My time is far too valuable and wasting it playing games that are unnecessarily difficult, tedious or time consuming is not a valuable use of my limited time to entertain myself.
Basically, I'll probably NEVER look for a single game to play over the long haul because its POINTLESS. Why play 1 MMO for so long when there are so many to play? I can understand back in 1998, when there were 3=) Now there's a new one coming out every 6 months. I want to play all of them that interest me, because we all know stepping into a MMO 6 months or a year after its been released isn't the same as being there on day 1. I just can't play a MMO unless I'm there at the start., hehe.
Originally posted by Smikis t my post reminds me too much of warhammer, which we know, is wow copy to extend , and it failed on key points, such as mm, those 2 letters, never fitted into war, it was like single player, lan game at best, only first 5 lvls felt like mmorpg, server caps were terrible, 1k ppl, 500 per side, spread out in what 8 locations was it.. ? 4 for each side? or 6, anyway , you get the point while im pretty sure wow servers had 5k cap from release ( hey i might be wrong ) and have about 10k ( i might be wrong again ) now, and wow was all about endgame
you see, I think you fell exactly for what you are criticising. It is true that Warhammer can feel like a single player game in the beginning, and even later once you want to do pve it can feel pretty empty. but if you do rvr, which doesn't really take off until t2 or t3, then you have to group if you like or not. so there is a lot of "MM", if you have the patience to wait for it. Actually, WAR did it pretty good for exactly the "modern" solo-MMO player. First it is "calm", you pve, you do some pqs even, once you get into your class, you suddenly end up in rvr. But ye, it is not perfect, WAR needs still a lot of polishing.
Have MMOs changed? Have MMOs gone from games that held players for years to only holding for 3-6 months until players move to the next game? Have they gone from Worlds we lived in to Places we visit, like some type of vacation resort? Are the players responsible for this? yes? no? Are the MMO companies responsible? Would these companies rather just create games designed for high turn over and rapid box sales instead of core fans that play and pay for 4-5+ years? It would seem so but that's only my opinion I would like to hear yours.
yes and no. in the old days there wasn't much to choose from. UO e.g. is a sandbox game, and that makes people stay for years over years. But those are not many. EQ1 isn't sandbox, and was pretty grindy (dunno about now), where it took long time just to get somewhere and it was build around group play.
Today, there is so much choice, even if similar. Personally, I get bored after 6+ months with the same game, even if I didn't reach a level cap. It's like not wanting to eat the same food all the time. After a while though one might return.
Also, there are so many more multiplayer games today, which are "for free". Neverwinternights, Warcraft (III, not WoW), Battlefield and tons of others over all kinds of genres (not many SciFi though ). You have tons of content and can spend tons of time with these and with your friends or new friends, so why choose an MMO, some might ask. And MMO devs have to take this probably into consideration.
MMOGs were always designed to have a 4 month shelf life for a regular player. Go back and read any of the designer chats from any MMOG made in the last 15 years.
A lots happend in 15 years, a lot has happend in the last 5. What they thought they were doing and what actualy happend means that they should adapt to our standards and not dumb the standards down to the point were its just pathetic.
Have MMOs changed? Have MMOs gone from games that held players for years to only holding for 3-6 months until players move to the next game? Have they gone from Worlds we lived in to Places we visit, like some type of vacation resort? Are the players responsible for this? yes? no? Are the MMO companies responsible? Would these companies rather just create games designed for high turn over and rapid box sales instead of core fans that play and pay for 4-5+ years? It would seem so but that's only my opinion I would like to hear yours.
Yes the direction of MMOs has changed a lot, look at the first main 3 UO AC EQ. No new game has come out that is designed like those. The players are responsible because it is what the players want, and they show this with sales and subs. They gravitate towards games where you can easily max out a character in 2-3 weeks.
I personally haven't had an MMO come along in years that has kept my attention for even 1 month. They're all easy mode now, with quest direction to tell you exactly where to go and what to do. They let you level up at the speed of light and try to market around end game (I hate end game, I only enjoy the path to the end. Repeating a few dungeons over and over for the best gear is so utterly boring and crappy). They make it so when you die or fail nothing happens so that they don't risk ever frustrating you. Oh you ran through the whole dungeon without being strategic and you died? It's ok no penatly just try again, hell we'll give you a reward for trying, and a title for dying.
Unfortunatly this style is here to stay because MMOs are now main stream. And the general public doesn't like challenge, thought or time. They want it all, want it all now, and don't want to have to do anything for it.
I believe the MMO design is just losing its flare to be honest. And maybe not just the MMO genre, but all online genres. Its been stated before that players are just simply getting used to the mechanics, tiny changes to a feature here and there are not keeping our attention, and the recycling of the same old features is just not compelling as they once were when the MMO genre was young and fresh. Graphics can only get so detailed before they become too much like real life. The fantasy genre can only mix and match the basic archetypes so many ways to logically create something even half-ass "new". Don't get me wrong, we all have the "must haves" that must be contained in a game to play it. Features that should by now be a "default" thing with all MMOs. I will use WoW as an example as its the fondest "End-Game" experience I have had. There are many complaints that encounters are becoming to easy or simplified, but could it be that you are such an experienced MMO player that nothing really seems all that surprising. There are only so many ways to use a randomly generated event with a computer. A computer/program operates on a specific list of instructions to accomplish a task, and throwing in a RNG in there will only change so many things. Scripted events only stay so cool and new for so long, before you no longer have to keep that silence on ventrilo to stay concentrated. The gamers are just simply too used to the mechanics, the setting, and all of the other features that make up a normal MMO. This doesn't mean there isnt room for innovation, but there are only so many ways to skin a cat before you are a pretty experienced cat skinner. This isn't knocking MMO development, its just a point of view on how far the average MMO player has come along with the Genre itself.
This is a good and valid point. This goes for all genres too. All games start to feel the same and no longer capture your attention like they once did. I think the only cure for this is something most gamers don't want to face, and that's a break. Gamers need to take a break from one genre; long enough for them to forget things you took for granted. Maybe the gamer could play another genre; a genre the complete opposite of the one they came from. Or they can simply take a break from gaming and pick it back up the next year when something truely exciting gets their attention.
On a further note, I agree with you that maybe the first generation of MMO players should take a long needed break. Now Im not saying the ones that are perfectly fine with the genre and still taken in by its vastness. But we all know there were things to do before we found these gems and there are still things to do if we stopped playing them, I dont think anyone can safely say that gaming is their ONLY interest. So do like I did, sit back, unsub from everything for a while, and simply Watch the genre evolve and change.
Who knows, maybe a year or so down the road a leap in tech will allow for more innovation. Sit and wait. Pick another hobby for a while. See which games rise and which ones fall. Its actually quite interesting, and you will over time learn which ones are worth playing and giving a trial run, or which ones you think you should stay away from.
I agree. I believe that people have just become addicted to the fact that they can play a game nonstop for years, so they buy every mmorpg as it hits the market. People in other genres don't buy every single game that releases; instead, they buy only the games that interest them. MMO gamers should really do the same. They should play the MMO that does satisfy them until it no longer does, then unsub and play no MMORPG until one comes out that they truely are excited about or their last one releases an expansion. But I feel silly telling people what they should do, because it's not my choice and I don't actually care all that much. Its just that you hear this all the time on the forums now, like a bunch of crack addicts that don't know their crack addicts, complaining that no MMORPG satisfies them, that they're all crap.
Agree with all posts in this chain 1000%.
I also just can't fathom why MMO's are held to some ridiculous standard that other genre's games are not. I will be bored with any game after a year plus, I don't care what it is. Is it a big FAIL, that eventually you get bored of a game? I think not. Look at WoW as an example, so many of the most critical haters of it, enjoyed it for a very long time, then due to various reasons, lost that interest or developed some type of deal-breaker issue with it. And now they spout venom about how it is so awful, yadda-yadda-yadda. Why not just realize you will get bored with anything after that long?
I also think it is amusing at this point to listen to us old timers talk about how to save MMO's, they need to go back to the tedious, grindy, massive group content, that made EQ successful. That is simply not what the majority of people want. You can scream all you want about how it is care-bear, dubmed-down, etc, etc. But you are the EXTREME minority now that the MMO player base has expanded exponentially.
Ah....I'm rambling at this point, but you get the jist.
The real problem is just how many people are *expecting* them to be playable for the long haul. There have actually been very few computer games ever made in all genres that can be played for any lengthy period of time. I don't know why people are always expecting the MMOG genre to be so different. Any game, even the big career MMOG's, that I have played for more than 6 months get to be less and less satisfying the longer I play them. Its as if some desperate part inside me just can't face the fact that its probably time to find something else to do.
Have MMOs changed? Have MMOs gone from games that held players for years to only holding for 3-6 months until players move to the next game? Have they gone from Worlds we lived in to Places we visit, like some type of vacation resort? Are the players responsible for this? yes? no? Are the MMO companies responsible? Would these companies rather just create games designed for high turn over and rapid box sales instead of core fans that play and pay for 4-5+ years? It would seem so but that's only my opinion I would like to hear yours. In my experience; casual gamers play longer, but for far fewer hours a week. That's what I think has changed; the time investment required to remain competitive in modern MMOs. It's not "most time invested = win" any more. In the past; the "best" players had to invest an insane amount of time into their progression because you were unable to compete at the top level if you didn't. I remember WoW players spending 40-50 hours per week raiding/grinding cash/honour in order to get the best gear possible. Thankfully, those days are gone and even some casual gamers like me (I average 15-20 hours a week) are counted amongst the best-geared and most highly-skilled players on a server.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Have MMOs changed? Have MMOs gone from games that held players for years to only holding for 3-6 months until players move to the next game? Have they gone from Worlds we lived in to Places we visit, like some type of vacation resort? Are the players responsible for this? yes? no? Are the MMO companies responsible? Would these companies rather just create games designed for high turn over and rapid box sales instead of core fans that play and pay for 4-5+ years? It would seem so but that's only my opinion I would like to hear yours.
Yes the direction of MMOs has changed a lot, look at the first main 3 UO AC EQ. No new game has come out that is designed like those. The players are responsible because it is what the players want, and they show this with sales and subs. They gravitate towards games where you can easily max out a character in 2-3 weeks.
I personally haven't had an MMO come along in years that has kept my attention for even 1 month. They're all easy mode now, with quest direction to tell you exactly where to go and what to do. They let you level up at the speed of light and try to market around end game (I hate end game, I only enjoy the path to the end. Repeating a few dungeons over and over for the best gear is so utterly boring and crappy). They make it so when you die or fail nothing happens so that they don't risk ever frustrating you. Oh you ran through the whole dungeon without being strategic and you died? It's ok no penatly just try again, hell we'll give you a reward for trying, and a title for dying.
Unfortunatly this style is here to stay because MMOs are now main stream. And the general public doesn't like challenge, thought or time. They want it all, want it all now, and don't want to have to do anything for it.
That about sums it up.
I tried darkfall, lots of plusses, but dieing quickly and easily to those that got high stats before the work rounds were fixed doesnt appeal to me; soon as they open a new eu server I expect Ill give it a go - looks great and relies on the players own skills.
Recently tried
AOC - poor. Too simplistic death was a free port somewhere.
WAR - poor.
Currently playing EQ, logged into eq2, but just admired the gfx for a few minutes, always thought the game was far too linear - as are the ones Ive tried released since.
Vanguard - parts of it are good, but again suffers from too much defined areas.
I liked EQ for a variety of reasons, but a big one was the danger of dieing - I'm killing mobs around my level and something 20 or 30 higher can sneak along and kill me - teaches good situational awareness.
Its been dummed down, but it still does it for me.
Vendetta Online seems good too, just testing out the free trial.
Whilst we get what we want not what we need MMOs are going to continue to mainly suck
Well, since play WOW for 18 months, and despite trying many MMO's since then, only one game has held my interest for 2 years now, and it came out before WOW.
The newer releases haven't impressed me enough to play them. Can't really say why.
As someone mentioned earlier, my tastes have changed over the yeer and I can't settle for more of the same.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They have changed for the worst and stayed the same in all the wrong places for evolution to take place.
1. MMOs now a days are being made more for the casual player. You may get allot of subs for a while but soon it will die because casual players arent going to be around that long. its the nature of casual play. Some will, but most wont.
2. Same old content made for the people that will spend allot of time playing. there has been nothing new in MMOs as far as time consuming content. its the same old shit.
3. no general innovation to the core systems of MMO gameplay.
Originally posted by Smikis t my post reminds me too much of warhammer, which we know, is wow copy to extend , and it failed on key points, such as mm, those 2 letters, never fitted into war, it was like single player, lan game at best, only first 5 lvls felt like mmorpg, server caps were terrible, 1k ppl, 500 per side, spread out in what 8 locations was it.. ? 4 for each side? or 6, anyway , you get the point while im pretty sure wow servers had 5k cap from release ( hey i might be wrong ) and have about 10k ( i might be wrong again ) now, and wow was all about endgame
you see, I think you fell exactly for what you are criticising. It is true that Warhammer can feel like a single player game in the beginning, and even later once you want to do pve it can feel pretty empty. but if you do rvr, which doesn't really take off until t2 or t3, then you have to group if you like or not. so there is a lot of "MM", if you have the patience to wait for it. Actually, WAR did it pretty good for exactly the "modern" solo-MMO player. First it is "calm", you pve, you do some pqs even, once you get into your class, you suddenly end up in rvr. But ye, it is not perfect, WAR needs still a lot of polishing.
I can only speak for myself, but when I am asking for better grouping, more "mm" if you will, i'ts about the PvE, before you get to raiding part of the game.
PvP by it's very nature requires more than one player, so I'm not going to complain about playing that solo. PvP is fun 1v1, or more.
PvE, IMO, is fun with a group of 2 or more, not so much solo.
It's just not MMO gaming, fact is console and pc games are a multibillion dollar industry. Greed has corrupted our developers, they no longer create to make something new and wonderous, just run through the motions trying to make the most money possible. It happened before with 80s metal, instead of great bands putting out great music many a rockers were just in it for the money and lifestyle and the whole scene crashed around them.
I wanted to comment again on this thread since it has a lively mature discussion going. I believe the MMO developers need to stop marketing to a player base but market to the genre. Think about it for a moment.
An FPS game is catered toward fast twitch reflexes and fast paced combat. There have been many FPS, and I can't think of one that didnt have at least a tiny bit of success. They create their games based on FPS characteristics, NOT player bases. People that like that gameplay will buy those games and play them.
MMO developers are catering to a market rather than a genre. They are defining their playerbase before the game is even released by putting in features that many of us would agree are not what made up an MMO 10 years ago. FPS game developers are not trying to change the genre, they are just making small tweaks here and there and adding features that ENHANCE gameplay but do not change the core.
MMO developers are adding all this functionality and convenience to their games that TAKE AWAY from what a traditional MMO is.
Comparing the MMO genre to the FPS genre was just an example. My point is universal.
Dont cater to a playerbase, instead create your worlds, invest the time needed, and put out a game that all will play, not just the casual, or hardcore.
Edit: Check out my blog. www.slimfrog.com . Looking for some contributors.
Slimefrog your bang on the money, marketing rules at the moment. It's very sad but true, The flip side is that the cost involved in creating something totally new or even returning to grass MMO roots is greater than churning out another clone with a twist.
1. I agree with the post immediately above, MMO's are built these days with more of an eye to marketing then to the idea of the "grass roots MMO". But let's face it, companies make games first and foremost to make money. MMO's are particularly attractive for this as they are the only genre that charges a monthly fee to be able to keep playing. I don't count X-Box Live and it's competitors because they aren't charging for any one game and you can still play the game ( single player parts and/or multiplayer through LAN) without a monthly fee.
2. (This is based on anecdotal evidence, not any study) I believe people tend to play their "first game" or at least "first game that doesn't suck" longer. That's because in that first game EVERYTHING is new, and you want to explore every little bit of content you can. As you play more games supposedly new things aren't new anymore; game X's Warrior = game Y's Hero = game Z's Warlord, it's the tank, and so on. Therefore people may not play as many different classes, but just stick with the ones that previous games have shown them they enjoy the most. The same with quests; kill-10-fill-in-the-blank-critters, or dungeons; kill the dragon and get the Magic Widgit. Folks don't feel the same desire to explore every aspect of a game.
3. As games become easier, to appeal to the casual gamer, the learning curve is shorter. Games are simpler and don't take as long to master and compete.
The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
They have changed for the worst and stayed the same in all the wrong places for evolution to take place. 1. MMOs now a days are being made more for the casual player. You may get allot of subs for a while but soon it will die because casual players arent going to be around that long. its the nature of casual play. Some will, but most wont. 2. Same old content made for the people that will spend allot of time playing. there has been nothing new in MMOs as far as time consuming content. its the same old shit. 3. no general innovation to the core systems of MMO gameplay.
Your assertion #1 is easily proven false by WoW's success.
They have changed for the worst and stayed the same in all the wrong places for evolution to take place. 1. MMOs now a days are being made more for the casual player. You may get allot of subs for a while but soon it will die because casual players arent going to be around that long. its the nature of casual play. Some will, but most wont. 2. Same old content made for the people that will spend allot of time playing. there has been nothing new in MMOs as far as time consuming content. its the same old shit. 3. no general innovation to the core systems of MMO gameplay.
You assertion #1 is easily proven false by WoW's success.
Not necessarily. Wow has a great churn rate, as well as a dedicated following of other games. I played wow with a lot of people in a guild back when I was raiding in the first two years, and only a handful of them still play. Wow is always marketing to new players, and each day more new people join. Of course, each day more older people leave.
So considering the argument you disagree with, are you still so sure of your answer? Do you really think most casual players have stuck with wow for four+ years? Or is wow consistently getting newer customers and churning out the older customers?
They have changed for the worst and stayed the same in all the wrong places for evolution to take place. 1. MMOs now a days are being made more for the casual player. You may get allot of subs for a while but soon it will die because casual players arent going to be around that long. its the nature of casual play. Some will, but most wont. 2. Same old content made for the people that will spend allot of time playing. there has been nothing new in MMOs as far as time consuming content. its the same old shit. 3. no general innovation to the core systems of MMO gameplay.
You assertion #1 is easily proven false by WoW's success.
Not necessarily. Wow has a great churn rate, as well as a dedicated following of other games. I played wow with a lot of people in a guild back when I was raiding in the first two years, and only a handful of them still play. Wow is always marketing to new players, and each day more new people join. Of course, each day more older people leave.
So considering the argument you disagree with, are you still so sure of your answer? Do you really think most casual players have stuck with wow for four+ years? Or is wow consistently getting newer customers and churning out the older customers?
You are stating a claim for me that I did not make. I did not say that all casual players stuck with WoW for 4+ years. Your own claim proves my point for me very easily. The people you played with a lot all played for two years. For two years they played a game geared more to casual play in general.
The claim I was refuting was that somehow casual play cannot equal any type of sustained success, which is easily proven false not just by WoW, but many other examples.
And you are implying that because players do not stick with a game for 4+ years, they somehow left because they are "casual" players and as the previous poster states, "You may get allot of subs for a while but soon it will die because casual players arent going to be around that long. its the nature of casual play. Some will, but most wont."
Have MMOs changed? Have MMOs gone from games that held players for years to only holding for 3-6 months until players move to the next game? Have they gone from Worlds we lived in to Places we visit, like some type of vacation resort?
No, they've gone from worlds we lived in for years to not being able to hold players at all.
The game companies and designers are absolutely to blame for the mmo-c-r-a-p, not the players. Instead of listening to the players they release the same featureless, broken, bugged, and half assed mmorpgs. Everything is the same old rehashed tired crap. How about some real innovation and progress instead of taking 3 steps backwards with every new mmo-c-r-a-p release. I'm tired of playing games, I want to go to another world.
I blame the fact that sandboxes have gone out of fashion. It's a lot easier to get people started in a themepark environment where everything is spoon-fed to the player, and the learning curve is as flat as a pancake. That approach leaves nothing to be discovered or created by the players themselves, only the carefully directed and highly linear content the devs created. And great as that content can be, it will never be enough, that sort of content is always consumed many times faster than it could possibly be produced.
To some extent this is of course a matter of personal preference. I'm not about to claim that theme park based games are inferior in every way, they simply offer a different experience. An experience that might be of higher quality and higher intensity, but for a much shorter period of time. Games like EVE , UO and even old muds didn't seem that interesting at first glance, but they all had some depth, there was a lot more to them than what first met the eye. With games on the other end of the spectrum I find that it's the other way around. They are all surface, and after talking one or two characters to the level cap, and perhaps beating a handful of raidbosses there is nothing left worth doing.
My ideal version for an mmo would be a sandbox / themepark hybrid, nothing grabs the attention of players like a good themepark, and nothing keeps it like a good sandbox. Epic quest-lines could be used to ease the player into the sandbox part of the game and to explain the backstory. The first part of the game could be a young space marine or cadett fighting their way through a long campain before earning a command of their own, and and the second part would be them venturing forth into the newly conquered territory to establish new colonies and defend humanity, just to give an unimaginative example.
The important part is that character development doesn't grind to a halt at the level cap, and that players are given an opportunity to influence the world around them in a meaningful way, not just fighting over the same fort and see it change hands five times a day.
What's going on? Why can't MMOs give you the same sense of community and wonder and excitement that a text-based game could?
People joining MUDs were doing so because their goal was to hang out with, interact with and play games with others. Those are very low priority for most of today's MMO gamers.
People played MUDs to interact and socialize.
Interaction and socializing breed community.
Community breeds long term relationships.
Long term relationships keep people in the MUD longer.
Yes, but isn't that the same reason people supposedly join MMOs? What's the point of playing a massively multi-player game if you're not going to play with other people? I think most people who played in MUDs were much more creative than your typical MMO player, certainly they weren't constrained by monster killing and the like, they actually went out and did things with others outside the pervue of the game and that's what made the community stronger.
What, did all the smart, creative people die off and leave the shallow MMO drones?
Have MMOs changed? Have MMOs gone from games that held players for years to only holding for 3-6 months until players move to the next game? Have they gone from Worlds we lived in to Places we visit, like some type of vacation resort?
No, they've gone from worlds we lived in for years to not being able to hold players at all.
The game companies and designers are absolutely to blame for the mmo-c-r-a-p, not the players. Instead of listening to the players they release the same featureless, broken, bugged, and half assed mmorpgs. Everything is the same old rehashed tired crap. How about some real innovation and progress instead of taking 3 steps backwards with every new mmo-c-r-a-p release. I'm tired of playing games, I want to go to another world.
You need a life if you treat MMOs more than just games. MMOs have come a long way to become fun, social games.
What's going on? Why can't MMOs give you the same sense of community and wonder and excitement that a text-based game could?
People joining MUDs were doing so because their goal was to hang out with, interact with and play games with others. Those are very low priority for most of today's MMO gamers.
People played MUDs to interact and socialize.
Interaction and socializing breed community.
Community breeds long term relationships.
Long term relationships keep people in the MUD longer.
Yes, but isn't that the same reason people supposedly join MMOs? What's the point of playing a massively multi-player game if you're not going to play with other people? I think most people who played in MUDs were much more creative than your typical MMO player, certainly they weren't constrained by monster killing and the like, they actually went out and did things with others outside the pervue of the game and that's what made the community stronger.
What, did all the smart, creative people die off and leave the shallow MMO drones?
Of course not. There are many reasons. Socialization is only one of them.
For example, you can't really trade without an AH and many players. You can't show off your gear to people without others around. You can PvP without others. The list goes on and on. Plus, a MMO has much MORE content than a SP game and you can learn the game once and consume a lot more content.
None of those things require you to group with others.
At the end of the day, people want a good game to relax and have fun. And sometimes that means simple hack-n-slash.
Comments
Disagree whole heartedly. MMOs today are made with half or less the content of the predecessors. MMOs today are made with easy crafting, easy material collection, specified end game raiding areas, and no need to explore or investigate. It is quite clear to me that mmos today are made with a much shorter lifespan so that the ADD generation market plays mmos. It is simply a change in target market segments. Those of us who desire a complex game that lasts for years are the obvious minority. MMOs aren't made for us anymore. Theyr'e made for an entirely different audience.
Older gamers will relate I bet...
If MMOs went back to long grinds, lousy UIs, unintuitve gameplay systems with no direction and lots of repetition with slow character growth, I simply wouldn't play. I'd be out. I never wanted to play a single MMO for years and never will.
Its like my experience with Mass Effect currently. I began on Veteran, because I play every game on the hardest setting. After hitting a road block at one of the bosses, I switched to normal mode and beat her fairly easily. Afterwards I realized, beating her on normal was no less fun than fighting her on Veteran. The difference was, I didn't have to fight her 10 freakin times getting one shotted, wondering how I died and feeling fairly frustrated. Instead the fight was really fun ONCE. I didn't bother switching the difficulty back to Veteran because I realized its not MORE fun when the game feels tedious. One way or another I'm going to beat it. Taking 2X as long, dying 2X as much does not fill me with any more satisfaction. The story isn't BETTER on Veteran mode. I won't accomplish more of less. Taking longer only delays my ability to play the 3 other games I have wrapped in a drawer that I'm looking forward to playing.
15 years ago, that wouldn't have been my attitude. I would've kept cranking away on hard mode because I'd get some freak satisfaction out of it and now, I realize its an empty feeling. Its pointless. Nobody cares. Its NOT an accomplishment. Spending triple the time for the same ending only means I spent 2 times as long playing and you know what, thats a waste of time now. My time is far too valuable and wasting it playing games that are unnecessarily difficult, tedious or time consuming is not a valuable use of my limited time to entertain myself.
Basically, I'll probably NEVER look for a single game to play over the long haul because its POINTLESS. Why play 1 MMO for so long when there are so many to play? I can understand back in 1998, when there were 3=) Now there's a new one coming out every 6 months. I want to play all of them that interest me, because we all know stepping into a MMO 6 months or a year after its been released isn't the same as being there on day 1. I just can't play a MMO unless I'm there at the start., hehe.
you see, I think you fell exactly for what you are criticising. It is true that Warhammer can feel like a single player game in the beginning, and even later once you want to do pve it can feel pretty empty. but if you do rvr, which doesn't really take off until t2 or t3, then you have to group if you like or not. so there is a lot of "MM", if you have the patience to wait for it. Actually, WAR did it pretty good for exactly the "modern" solo-MMO player. First it is "calm", you pve, you do some pqs even, once you get into your class, you suddenly end up in rvr. But ye, it is not perfect, WAR needs still a lot of polishing.
yes and no. in the old days there wasn't much to choose from. UO e.g. is a sandbox game, and that makes people stay for years over years. But those are not many. EQ1 isn't sandbox, and was pretty grindy (dunno about now), where it took long time just to get somewhere and it was build around group play.
Today, there is so much choice, even if similar. Personally, I get bored after 6+ months with the same game, even if I didn't reach a level cap. It's like not wanting to eat the same food all the time. After a while though one might return.
Also, there are so many more multiplayer games today, which are "for free". Neverwinternights, Warcraft (III, not WoW), Battlefield and tons of others over all kinds of genres (not many SciFi though
). You have tons of content and can spend tons of time with these and with your friends or new friends, so why choose an MMO, some might ask. And MMO devs have to take this probably into consideration.
A lots happend in 15 years, a lot has happend in the last 5. What they thought they were doing and what actualy happend means that they should adapt to our standards and not dumb the standards down to the point were its just pathetic.
Yes the direction of MMOs has changed a lot, look at the first main 3 UO AC EQ. No new game has come out that is designed like those. The players are responsible because it is what the players want, and they show this with sales and subs. They gravitate towards games where you can easily max out a character in 2-3 weeks.
I personally haven't had an MMO come along in years that has kept my attention for even 1 month. They're all easy mode now, with quest direction to tell you exactly where to go and what to do. They let you level up at the speed of light and try to market around end game (I hate end game, I only enjoy the path to the end. Repeating a few dungeons over and over for the best gear is so utterly boring and crappy). They make it so when you die or fail nothing happens so that they don't risk ever frustrating you. Oh you ran through the whole dungeon without being strategic and you died? It's ok no penatly just try again, hell we'll give you a reward for trying, and a title for dying.
Unfortunatly this style is here to stay because MMOs are now main stream. And the general public doesn't like challenge, thought or time. They want it all, want it all now, and don't want to have to do anything for it.
This is a good and valid point. This goes for all genres too. All games start to feel the same and no longer capture your attention like they once did. I think the only cure for this is something most gamers don't want to face, and that's a break. Gamers need to take a break from one genre; long enough for them to forget things you took for granted. Maybe the gamer could play another genre; a genre the complete opposite of the one they came from. Or they can simply take a break from gaming and pick it back up the next year when something truely exciting gets their attention.
On a further note, I agree with you that maybe the first generation of MMO players should take a long needed break. Now Im not saying the ones that are perfectly fine with the genre and still taken in by its vastness. But we all know there were things to do before we found these gems and there are still things to do if we stopped playing them, I dont think anyone can safely say that gaming is their ONLY interest. So do like I did, sit back, unsub from everything for a while, and simply Watch the genre evolve and change.
Who knows, maybe a year or so down the road a leap in tech will allow for more innovation. Sit and wait. Pick another hobby for a while. See which games rise and which ones fall. Its actually quite interesting, and you will over time learn which ones are worth playing and giving a trial run, or which ones you think you should stay away from.
I agree. I believe that people have just become addicted to the fact that they can play a game nonstop for years, so they buy every mmorpg as it hits the market. People in other genres don't buy every single game that releases; instead, they buy only the games that interest them. MMO gamers should really do the same. They should play the MMO that does satisfy them until it no longer does, then unsub and play no MMORPG until one comes out that they truely are excited about or their last one releases an expansion. But I feel silly telling people what they should do, because it's not my choice and I don't actually care all that much. Its just that you hear this all the time on the forums now, like a bunch of crack addicts that don't know their crack addicts, complaining that no MMORPG satisfies them, that they're all crap.
Agree with all posts in this chain 1000%.
I also just can't fathom why MMO's are held to some ridiculous standard that other genre's games are not. I will be bored with any game after a year plus, I don't care what it is. Is it a big FAIL, that eventually you get bored of a game? I think not. Look at WoW as an example, so many of the most critical haters of it, enjoyed it for a very long time, then due to various reasons, lost that interest or developed some type of deal-breaker issue with it. And now they spout venom about how it is so awful, yadda-yadda-yadda. Why not just realize you will get bored with anything after that long?
I also think it is amusing at this point to listen to us old timers talk about how to save MMO's, they need to go back to the tedious, grindy, massive group content, that made EQ successful. That is simply not what the majority of people want. You can scream all you want about how it is care-bear, dubmed-down, etc, etc. But you are the EXTREME minority now that the MMO player base has expanded exponentially.
Ah....I'm rambling at this point, but you get the jist.
The real problem is just how many people are *expecting* them to be playable for the long haul. There have actually been very few computer games ever made in all genres that can be played for any lengthy period of time. I don't know why people are always expecting the MMOG genre to be so different. Any game, even the big career MMOG's, that I have played for more than 6 months get to be less and less satisfying the longer I play them. Its as if some desperate part inside me just can't face the fact that its probably time to find something else to do.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Yes the direction of MMOs has changed a lot, look at the first main 3 UO AC EQ. No new game has come out that is designed like those. The players are responsible because it is what the players want, and they show this with sales and subs. They gravitate towards games where you can easily max out a character in 2-3 weeks.
I personally haven't had an MMO come along in years that has kept my attention for even 1 month. They're all easy mode now, with quest direction to tell you exactly where to go and what to do. They let you level up at the speed of light and try to market around end game (I hate end game, I only enjoy the path to the end. Repeating a few dungeons over and over for the best gear is so utterly boring and crappy). They make it so when you die or fail nothing happens so that they don't risk ever frustrating you. Oh you ran through the whole dungeon without being strategic and you died? It's ok no penatly just try again, hell we'll give you a reward for trying, and a title for dying.
Unfortunatly this style is here to stay because MMOs are now main stream. And the general public doesn't like challenge, thought or time. They want it all, want it all now, and don't want to have to do anything for it.
That about sums it up.
I tried darkfall, lots of plusses, but dieing quickly and easily to those that got high stats before the work rounds were fixed doesnt appeal to me; soon as they open a new eu server I expect Ill give it a go - looks great and relies on the players own skills.
Recently tried
AOC - poor. Too simplistic death was a free port somewhere.
WAR - poor.
Currently playing EQ, logged into eq2, but just admired the gfx for a few minutes, always thought the game was far too linear - as are the ones Ive tried released since.
Vanguard - parts of it are good, but again suffers from too much defined areas.
I liked EQ for a variety of reasons, but a big one was the danger of dieing - I'm killing mobs around my level and something 20 or 30 higher can sneak along and kill me - teaches good situational awareness.
Its been dummed down, but it still does it for me.
Vendetta Online seems good too, just testing out the free trial.
Whilst we get what we want not what we need MMOs are going to continue to mainly suck
Well, since play WOW for 18 months, and despite trying many MMO's since then, only one game has held my interest for 2 years now, and it came out before WOW.
The newer releases haven't impressed me enough to play them. Can't really say why.
As someone mentioned earlier, my tastes have changed over the yeer and I can't settle for more of the same.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They have changed for the worst and stayed the same in all the wrong places for evolution to take place.
1. MMOs now a days are being made more for the casual player. You may get allot of subs for a while but soon it will die because casual players arent going to be around that long. its the nature of casual play. Some will, but most wont.
2. Same old content made for the people that will spend allot of time playing. there has been nothing new in MMOs as far as time consuming content. its the same old shit.
3. no general innovation to the core systems of MMO gameplay.
you see, I think you fell exactly for what you are criticising. It is true that Warhammer can feel like a single player game in the beginning, and even later once you want to do pve it can feel pretty empty. but if you do rvr, which doesn't really take off until t2 or t3, then you have to group if you like or not. so there is a lot of "MM", if you have the patience to wait for it. Actually, WAR did it pretty good for exactly the "modern" solo-MMO player. First it is "calm", you pve, you do some pqs even, once you get into your class, you suddenly end up in rvr. But ye, it is not perfect, WAR needs still a lot of polishing.
I can only speak for myself, but when I am asking for better grouping, more "mm" if you will, i'ts about the PvE, before you get to raiding part of the game.
PvP by it's very nature requires more than one player, so I'm not going to complain about playing that solo. PvP is fun 1v1, or more.
PvE, IMO, is fun with a group of 2 or more, not so much solo.
It's just not MMO gaming, fact is console and pc games are a multibillion dollar industry. Greed has corrupted our developers, they no longer create to make something new and wonderous, just run through the motions trying to make the most money possible. It happened before with 80s metal, instead of great bands putting out great music many a rockers were just in it for the money and lifestyle and the whole scene crashed around them.
I wanted to comment again on this thread since it has a lively mature discussion going. I believe the MMO developers need to stop marketing to a player base but market to the genre. Think about it for a moment.
An FPS game is catered toward fast twitch reflexes and fast paced combat. There have been many FPS, and I can't think of one that didnt have at least a tiny bit of success. They create their games based on FPS characteristics, NOT player bases. People that like that gameplay will buy those games and play them.
MMO developers are catering to a market rather than a genre. They are defining their playerbase before the game is even released by putting in features that many of us would agree are not what made up an MMO 10 years ago. FPS game developers are not trying to change the genre, they are just making small tweaks here and there and adding features that ENHANCE gameplay but do not change the core.
MMO developers are adding all this functionality and convenience to their games that TAKE AWAY from what a traditional MMO is.
Comparing the MMO genre to the FPS genre was just an example. My point is universal.
Dont cater to a playerbase, instead create your worlds, invest the time needed, and put out a game that all will play, not just the casual, or hardcore.
Edit: Check out my blog. www.slimfrog.com . Looking for some contributors.
Slimefrog your bang on the money, marketing rules at the moment. It's very sad but true, The flip side is that the cost involved in creating something totally new or even returning to grass MMO roots is greater than churning out another clone with a twist.
Still living in hope...
A couple of comments.
1. I agree with the post immediately above, MMO's are built these days with more of an eye to marketing then to the idea of the "grass roots MMO". But let's face it, companies make games first and foremost to make money. MMO's are particularly attractive for this as they are the only genre that charges a monthly fee to be able to keep playing. I don't count X-Box Live and it's competitors because they aren't charging for any one game and you can still play the game ( single player parts and/or multiplayer through LAN) without a monthly fee.
2. (This is based on anecdotal evidence, not any study) I believe people tend to play their "first game" or at least "first game that doesn't suck" longer. That's because in that first game EVERYTHING is new, and you want to explore every little bit of content you can. As you play more games supposedly new things aren't new anymore; game X's Warrior = game Y's Hero = game Z's Warlord, it's the tank, and so on. Therefore people may not play as many different classes, but just stick with the ones that previous games have shown them they enjoy the most. The same with quests; kill-10-fill-in-the-blank-critters, or dungeons; kill the dragon and get the Magic Widgit. Folks don't feel the same desire to explore every aspect of a game.
3. As games become easier, to appeal to the casual gamer, the learning curve is shorter. Games are simpler and don't take as long to master and compete.
The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
~Omar Khayyam
Your assertion #1 is easily proven false by WoW's success.
You assertion #1 is easily proven false by WoW's success.
Not necessarily. Wow has a great churn rate, as well as a dedicated following of other games. I played wow with a lot of people in a guild back when I was raiding in the first two years, and only a handful of them still play. Wow is always marketing to new players, and each day more new people join. Of course, each day more older people leave.
So considering the argument you disagree with, are you still so sure of your answer? Do you really think most casual players have stuck with wow for four+ years? Or is wow consistently getting newer customers and churning out the older customers?
You assertion #1 is easily proven false by WoW's success.
Not necessarily. Wow has a great churn rate, as well as a dedicated following of other games. I played wow with a lot of people in a guild back when I was raiding in the first two years, and only a handful of them still play. Wow is always marketing to new players, and each day more new people join. Of course, each day more older people leave.
So considering the argument you disagree with, are you still so sure of your answer? Do you really think most casual players have stuck with wow for four+ years? Or is wow consistently getting newer customers and churning out the older customers?
You are stating a claim for me that I did not make. I did not say that all casual players stuck with WoW for 4+ years. Your own claim proves my point for me very easily. The people you played with a lot all played for two years. For two years they played a game geared more to casual play in general.
The claim I was refuting was that somehow casual play cannot equal any type of sustained success, which is easily proven false not just by WoW, but many other examples.
And you are implying that because players do not stick with a game for 4+ years, they somehow left because they are "casual" players and as the previous poster states, "You may get allot of subs for a while but soon it will die because casual players arent going to be around that long. its the nature of casual play. Some will, but most wont."
No, they've gone from worlds we lived in for years to not being able to hold players at all.
The game companies and designers are absolutely to blame for the mmo-c-r-a-p, not the players. Instead of listening to the players they release the same featureless, broken, bugged, and half assed mmorpgs. Everything is the same old rehashed tired crap. How about some real innovation and progress instead of taking 3 steps backwards with every new mmo-c-r-a-p release. I'm tired of playing games, I want to go to another world.
I blame the fact that sandboxes have gone out of fashion. It's a lot easier to get people started in a themepark environment where everything is spoon-fed to the player, and the learning curve is as flat as a pancake. That approach leaves nothing to be discovered or created by the players themselves, only the carefully directed and highly linear content the devs created. And great as that content can be, it will never be enough, that sort of content is always consumed many times faster than it could possibly be produced.
To some extent this is of course a matter of personal preference. I'm not about to claim that theme park based games are inferior in every way, they simply offer a different experience. An experience that might be of higher quality and higher intensity, but for a much shorter period of time. Games like EVE , UO and even old muds didn't seem that interesting at first glance, but they all had some depth, there was a lot more to them than what first met the eye. With games on the other end of the spectrum I find that it's the other way around. They are all surface, and after talking one or two characters to the level cap, and perhaps beating a handful of raidbosses there is nothing left worth doing.
My ideal version for an mmo would be a sandbox / themepark hybrid, nothing grabs the attention of players like a good themepark, and nothing keeps it like a good sandbox. Epic quest-lines could be used to ease the player into the sandbox part of the game and to explain the backstory. The first part of the game could be a young space marine or cadett fighting their way through a long campain before earning a command of their own, and and the second part would be them venturing forth into the newly conquered territory to establish new colonies and defend humanity, just to give an unimaginative example.
The important part is that character development doesn't grind to a halt at the level cap, and that players are given an opportunity to influence the world around them in a meaningful way, not just fighting over the same fort and see it change hands five times a day.
People joining MUDs were doing so because their goal was to hang out with, interact with and play games with others. Those are very low priority for most of today's MMO gamers.
Yes, but isn't that the same reason people supposedly join MMOs? What's the point of playing a massively multi-player game if you're not going to play with other people? I think most people who played in MUDs were much more creative than your typical MMO player, certainly they weren't constrained by monster killing and the like, they actually went out and did things with others outside the pervue of the game and that's what made the community stronger.
What, did all the smart, creative people die off and leave the shallow MMO drones?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
No, they've gone from worlds we lived in for years to not being able to hold players at all.
The game companies and designers are absolutely to blame for the mmo-c-r-a-p, not the players. Instead of listening to the players they release the same featureless, broken, bugged, and half assed mmorpgs. Everything is the same old rehashed tired crap. How about some real innovation and progress instead of taking 3 steps backwards with every new mmo-c-r-a-p release. I'm tired of playing games, I want to go to another world.
You need a life if you treat MMOs more than just games. MMOs have come a long way to become fun, social games.
People joining MUDs were doing so because their goal was to hang out with, interact with and play games with others. Those are very low priority for most of today's MMO gamers.
Yes, but isn't that the same reason people supposedly join MMOs? What's the point of playing a massively multi-player game if you're not going to play with other people? I think most people who played in MUDs were much more creative than your typical MMO player, certainly they weren't constrained by monster killing and the like, they actually went out and did things with others outside the pervue of the game and that's what made the community stronger.
What, did all the smart, creative people die off and leave the shallow MMO drones?
Of course not. There are many reasons. Socialization is only one of them.
For example, you can't really trade without an AH and many players. You can't show off your gear to people without others around. You can PvP without others. The list goes on and on. Plus, a MMO has much MORE content than a SP game and you can learn the game once and consume a lot more content.
None of those things require you to group with others.
At the end of the day, people want a good game to relax and have fun. And sometimes that means simple hack-n-slash.