Chess is a game with one common goal an MMO is a game with many common goals. Many being the factor that grind can exist.
Im not following your logic at all. Could you expand on it or explain it in different way?
Originally posted by Hashbrick
Rule #13) Do not grab the dictionary to look for the biggest words to try and make you look more intelligent because you probably already failed.
I wasnt aware my vocabulary was that impressive. Thank you
Wouldnt one use a thesarus and not a dictionary for this purpose though? If I used either, maybe Id have more words spelled correctly though.
Originally posted by Hashbrick
The "rules" you dreamed up have many flaws because later down the road the game could completely change. A good example: I used to love SWG now I hate it. Why? Cause the game completely changed.
I didnt dream them up, they are fundamental laws of the universe, but you raise a good point. Someone is more than welcome to complain when a game they really like is changed fundamentally....expect with SWG. Star Wars nerds have no rights...
No one is allowed to complain about "grinding" anymore. MMOs as a genre has alot of repetive gameplay. If you dont enjoy it, find a new genre.
Ehm, Im with you on the other points (even though you can say a game you played a lot sucks because the devs killed it like SWG, it just isn't the same game anymore) but why do MMOs have to have a heavy grind?
Guildwars don't for one thing (well, almost no grind at least) and doing the same thing over and over is not that fun. The devs are often lazy and add a lot of grinding instead of making the whole game fun. Just because most devs do it doesn't mean it is right. And some games have insane amount of grinding.
The only point of grinding is to milk players for more sub money without adding so much content. Why do I have to kill a whole amount of animals to make a belt? Any real person would most likely buy leather of a farm or possibly kill one animal, a belt isn't that big... And XP grind is even more boring, you can only learn so much from doing the same thing (or fighting the same opponent) over and over.
Grinding do comes from the D&D pen and paper RPG but the grinding there is never so bad as in mmos. Most grind in computer games is just a waste of our time.
No one is allowed to complain about "grinding" anymore. MMOs as a genre has alot of repetive gameplay. If you dont enjoy it, find a new genre.
Ehm, Im with you on the other points (even though you can say a game you played a lot sucks because the devs killed it like SWG, it just isn't the same game anymore) but why do MMOs have to have a heavy grind?
Guildwars don't for one thing (well, almost no grind at least) and doing the same thing over and over is not that fun. The devs are often lazy and add a lot of grinding instead of making the whole game fun. Just because most devs do it doesn't mean it is right. And some games have insane amount of grinding.
The only point of grinding is to milk players for more sub money without adding so much content. Why do I have to kill a whole amount of animals to make a belt? Any real person would most likely buy leather of a farm or possibly kill one animal, a belt isn't that big... And XP grind is even more boring, you can only learn so much from doing the same thing (or fighting the same opponent) over and over.
Grinding do comes from the D&D pen and paper RPG but the grinding there is never so bad as in mmos. Most grind in computer games is just a waste of our time.
I think I muddied the waters when I mentioned repitition. My point really was that if someone enjoys an activity, it doesnt feel repetitive. I think you make a good point when you brought up amount of content. The issue many times isnt mechanics but lack of content.
The only point of grinding is to milk players for more sub money without adding so much content. Why do I have to kill a whole amount of animals to make a belt? Any real person would most likely buy leather of a farm or possibly kill one animal, a belt isn't that big... And XP grind is even more boring, you can only learn so much from doing the same thing (or fighting the same opponent) over and over. Grinding do comes from the D&D pen and paper RPG but the grinding there is never so bad as in mmos. Most grind in computer games is just a waste of our time.
That's not the only point. The other point is to make you work for your progress and rewards similar of what you have to do in real life. You can have the opinion that games shouldn't be of any kind of work but i don't believe that instant gratification does anybody any favors in games either. I personally care more about things i have worked harder for than things just handed to me on a silver platter. The games that makes me progress easily and gives me what i want with little effort does not hold any long term playability and motivation for me to play.
Furthermore xp grinding is more about advancing to your next upgrade which is something good programmers and good games make you look forward too. That alone motivates people to grind. If you can make the grind fun at the same time then you have an awesome combination but games has been successfull in the past without a fun grind simply because the carrot at the end of the stick was a huge motivating factor to begin with.
Grinds that are fun such as leveling up your character (to a certain extent, too much isn't fun) isn't the problem here. The problem is when grinds are used as a means to prevent players from getting to content too quickly. For example in EQ in the Luclin expansion you had to do very tedious quests which involved camping various long timer spawns as well as kill the same raid boss repeatly to enter the end instances in this expansion. This could take as long as months to accomplish. There really was no point in it other than to prevent the players from blowing through all the content too quickly.
Some games have really tedious grinds, but can still be fun. That doesn't make the grind itself enjoyable. Leveling can be a fun experience, but when you have to sit in the same spot and grind for days on end off the same MOB it gets really repetitious and can be unfun. This doesn't mean it wasn't fun for the first couple hours you did it.
Grinds that are fun such as leveling up your character (to a certain extent, too much isn't fun) isn't the problem here. The problem is when grinds are used as a means to prevent players from getting to content too quickly. For example in EQ in the Luclin expansion you had to do very tedious quests which involved camping various long timer spawns as well as kill the same raid boss repeatly to enter the end instances in this expansion. This could take as long as months to accomplish. There really was no point in it other than to prevent the players from blowing through all the content too quickly.
Some games have really tedious grinds, but can still be fun. That doesn't make the grind itself enjoyable. Leveling can be a fun experience, but when you have to sit in the same spot and grind for days on end off the same MOB it gets really repetitious and can be unfun. This doesn't mean it wasn't fun for the first couple hours you did it.
EQ was the king of timesinks. Verant Interactive aka Brad McQuaid believed that the more timesinks you added to a game the longer people would be playing the game and pay a subscripton fee. The philosophy was every player had personal goals they wanted to achieve. Build a great guild, reach a certain level, get certain gear, find a lot of online friends..whatever it may be. The more timesinks added to slow that progress the longer you would stay subbed for to reach that goal. If he was right or not i can't say. I can say however i played EQ for 4 years which is 2 years longer than any other MMO since then. Most likely because of lack of choices.
Timesinks is used in various ways to halter your progress ..one of the reasons is not reaching content too quickly as you mentioned. I don't like pointless timesinks that adds to frustration but sometimes they are needed.
If you have spent more than 1 month playing a game, you are not allowed to say it sucks. It must have had some positive qualities or your wouldnt have spent that much time playing it. Have some perspective. No one is allowed to complain about "grinding" anymore. MMOs as a genre has alot of repetive gameplay. If you dont enjoy it, find a new genre. You are not an "elite hardcore gamer" just because you dont have a life/job and thus can play 18 hours a day. Not having a relationship, children or job doesnt make you awsome or in a position to be condesending to people who dont have all day to play. Please never use the term "sandbox". Its way too reductionistic and there is no well accepted meaning on what that is anyway. Skill-based and class-based are both viable game mechanics. Ive played good and bad games using both approaches. Don't confuse "hard" with "timesink". Just because something takes a long tome doesnt make it hard. Instead of spewing rage on the internet, use that energy to pray to your personal deity asking that someone makes a fantasy MMORPG that allows players to create own realms/cities and has a deep player-run economy yet has good PvE and is not a mindless gankfest.
Thank you. Im being 75% serious.
I cannot accept 3 and 6.
MMORPGs do not require skill. They are not like First person Shooters, where the person with the best reflexes wins, and you will never beat that person if you weren't born with those kinds of reflexes.
In a ROLE PLAYING GAME, your character becomes l33t, not you. The way YOU become l33t, is by leveling your character faster than anyone else. This is done by playing 18 hours a day. When we say someone is hardcore in an MMO, we absolutey mean someone that plays A LOT. What else could it mean, since there's no skill involved?
Things that take a long time are hard. Hold out your arm. Easy, right? Now hold out your arm for 3 days. Not so easy now is it?
I would ad do not ask for developers to stop making Theme Park games like WoW. Just because you're burned out on them doesn't mean there were not millions of babies born today that will grow up and play an MMORPG for the first time.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp Things that take a long time are hard. Hold out your arm. Easy, right? Now hold out your arm for 3 days. Not so easy now is it?
It takes 50 minutes for my dishing machine to wash dishes. The fact that it takes 50 minutes doesnt make it hard.
I would ad do not ask for developers to stop making Theme Park games like WoW. Just because you're burned out on them doesn't mean there were not millions of babies born today that will grow up and play an MMORPG for the first time.
That seems like a non-sequitor. What makes you think I feel that way? I think WoW is an amazing PvE game. I don't think its perfect, but Wow is a masterpiece in many ways. It and EvE are the two best MMOs Ive ever played and Ive tried many. I liked UO alot too.
I would ad do not ask for developers to stop making Theme Park games like WoW. Just because you're burned out on them doesn't mean there were not millions of babies born today that will grow up and play an MMORPG for the first time.
That seems like a non-sequitor. What makes you think I feel that way? I think WoW is an amazing PvE game. I don't think its perfect, but Wow is a masterpiece in many ways. It and EvE are the two best MMOs Ive ever played and Ive tried many. I liked UO alot too.
I didn't give any thought to how you might personally feel about it. How do you know I feel like the 7 rules you posted? I am merely modifying the rules.
I am deleting 3 and 6, and adding the one above for all the people that cry "Stop making WoW clones!". Why would developers stop making WoW clones? Sure, you (not you in particular, but "you" in general) might have been playing games since UO and you're ready for something else. But many kids are just now reaching the age they can log onto an MMO and a WoW clone will seem like a wonderful adventure for them.
1. If you have spent more than 1 month playing a game, you are not allowed to say it sucks. It must have had some positive qualities or your wouldnt have spent that much time playing it. Have some perspective.
So is it ok for someone to say a game sucks if they only spent five minutes playing it?
2. No one is allowed to complain about "grinding" anymore. MMOs as a genre has alot of repetive gameplay. If you dont enjoy it, find a new genre.
Do we have your permission to discuss the pros and cons of different types of grinding? How can anyone ever express a negative opinion about a particular type of gameplay without it being "complaining"? So basically you're telling us that we can never say anything bad about any MMO ever.
3. You are not an "elite hardcore gamer" just because you dont have a life/job and thus can play 18 hours a day. Not having a relationship, children or job doesnt make you awsome or in a position to be condesending to people who dont have all day to play.
Yeah, I have no problem with that but aren't you being just a tiny bit condescending and judgemental by posting these "rules"?
4. Please never use the term "sandbox". Its way too reductionistic and there is no well accepted meaning on what that is anyway.
So if we can't use the term "sandbox" then shouldn't we also be forbiden to use any other term that could possibly be interpretted differently by different people? The terms "themepark" and "linear" should then also be disallowed. In fact, just about any descriptive terminology would have to be disallowed if it couldn't be nailed down to a point by point, unvarying definition.
It turns out that these terms don't have to be absolutely precise. They are generalizations and most of us understand the general idea conveyed by the terms even if we might interpret them slightly differently.
5. Skill-based and class-based are both viable game mechanics. Ive played good and bad games using both approaches.
Ok
6. Don't confuse "hard" with "timesink". Just because something takes a long tome doesnt make it hard.
That's ok too but you should have added this rule: Just because something takes very little time doesn't necessarily make it fun.
7. Instead of spewing rage on the internet (my irony sense is tingling), use that energy to pray to your personal deity asking that someone makes a fantasy MMORPG that allows players to create own realms/cities and has a deep player-run economy yet has good PvE and is not a mindless gankfest.
Oh, you mean a game with sandbox elements? Oh...wait, I just broke the rules didn't I?
What is sad is actually people are only interested in bad news. So if you want attention you have to be "evil".
Even we all know it's much more difficult to write a well put, constructive post than flame down all the way.
Originally posted by Fibsdk
8. Your MMORPG.com account has to have been made around '04' or before 9. You need to have atleast 500 posts under your account or you most likely will be deemed a troll or a game company representative in disguise 10. Your gaming experiences has to go as far back as 10 years. The further back your experiences go the more valid your arguments are. 11. You are not allowed to only post negative things about a game without presenting equally as many positive things or you are obviously trolling 12. You are not allowed to only post positive things about a game without presenting equally as many negative things or you are obviously a fanboi
8: So what? There are hundreds of people that have browsed this forum for a loong time and never cared to /join till lately 9: Did you ever heard about quality vs quantity? It's funny because I add much more value to a well done post when it's made by someone that has few posts under his account. 10: 100% disagree and for the record I played pong also. 11: not equally but balance is the key. Agreed. 12: I find this one funny
Comments
Repeat until there is a winner:
Consider postion
Move piece
Im not following your logic at all. Could you expand on it or explain it in different way?
I wasnt aware my vocabulary was that impressive. Thank you
Wouldnt one use a thesarus and not a dictionary for this purpose though? If I used either, maybe Id have more words spelled correctly though.
I didnt dream them up, they are fundamental laws of the universe, but you raise a good point. Someone is more than welcome to complain when a game they really like is changed fundamentally....expect with SWG. Star Wars nerds have no rights...
Ehm, Im with you on the other points (even though you can say a game you played a lot sucks because the devs killed it like SWG, it just isn't the same game anymore) but why do MMOs have to have a heavy grind?
Guildwars don't for one thing (well, almost no grind at least) and doing the same thing over and over is not that fun. The devs are often lazy and add a lot of grinding instead of making the whole game fun. Just because most devs do it doesn't mean it is right. And some games have insane amount of grinding.
The only point of grinding is to milk players for more sub money without adding so much content. Why do I have to kill a whole amount of animals to make a belt? Any real person would most likely buy leather of a farm or possibly kill one animal, a belt isn't that big... And XP grind is even more boring, you can only learn so much from doing the same thing (or fighting the same opponent) over and over.
Grinding do comes from the D&D pen and paper RPG but the grinding there is never so bad as in mmos. Most grind in computer games is just a waste of our time.
Ehm, Im with you on the other points (even though you can say a game you played a lot sucks because the devs killed it like SWG, it just isn't the same game anymore) but why do MMOs have to have a heavy grind?
Guildwars don't for one thing (well, almost no grind at least) and doing the same thing over and over is not that fun. The devs are often lazy and add a lot of grinding instead of making the whole game fun. Just because most devs do it doesn't mean it is right. And some games have insane amount of grinding.
The only point of grinding is to milk players for more sub money without adding so much content. Why do I have to kill a whole amount of animals to make a belt? Any real person would most likely buy leather of a farm or possibly kill one animal, a belt isn't that big... And XP grind is even more boring, you can only learn so much from doing the same thing (or fighting the same opponent) over and over.
Grinding do comes from the D&D pen and paper RPG but the grinding there is never so bad as in mmos. Most grind in computer games is just a waste of our time.
I think I muddied the waters when I mentioned repitition. My point really was that if someone enjoys an activity, it doesnt feel repetitive. I think you make a good point when you brought up amount of content. The issue many times isnt mechanics but lack of content.
That's not the only point. The other point is to make you work for your progress and rewards similar of what you have to do in real life. You can have the opinion that games shouldn't be of any kind of work but i don't believe that instant gratification does anybody any favors in games either. I personally care more about things i have worked harder for than things just handed to me on a silver platter. The games that makes me progress easily and gives me what i want with little effort does not hold any long term playability and motivation for me to play.
Furthermore xp grinding is more about advancing to your next upgrade which is something good programmers and good games make you look forward too. That alone motivates people to grind. If you can make the grind fun at the same time then you have an awesome combination but games has been successfull in the past without a fun grind simply because the carrot at the end of the stick was a huge motivating factor to begin with.
Grinds that are fun such as leveling up your character (to a certain extent, too much isn't fun) isn't the problem here. The problem is when grinds are used as a means to prevent players from getting to content too quickly. For example in EQ in the Luclin expansion you had to do very tedious quests which involved camping various long timer spawns as well as kill the same raid boss repeatly to enter the end instances in this expansion. This could take as long as months to accomplish. There really was no point in it other than to prevent the players from blowing through all the content too quickly.
Some games have really tedious grinds, but can still be fun. That doesn't make the grind itself enjoyable. Leveling can be a fun experience, but when you have to sit in the same spot and grind for days on end off the same MOB it gets really repetitious and can be unfun. This doesn't mean it wasn't fun for the first couple hours you did it.
EQ was the king of timesinks. Verant Interactive aka Brad McQuaid believed that the more timesinks you added to a game the longer people would be playing the game and pay a subscripton fee. The philosophy was every player had personal goals they wanted to achieve. Build a great guild, reach a certain level, get certain gear, find a lot of online friends..whatever it may be. The more timesinks added to slow that progress the longer you would stay subbed for to reach that goal. If he was right or not i can't say. I can say however i played EQ for 4 years which is 2 years longer than any other MMO since then. Most likely because of lack of choices.
Timesinks is used in various ways to halter your progress ..one of the reasons is not reaching content too quickly as you mentioned. I don't like pointless timesinks that adds to frustration but sometimes they are needed.
I cannot accept 3 and 6.
MMORPGs do not require skill. They are not like First person Shooters, where the person with the best reflexes wins, and you will never beat that person if you weren't born with those kinds of reflexes.
In a ROLE PLAYING GAME, your character becomes l33t, not you. The way YOU become l33t, is by leveling your character faster than anyone else. This is done by playing 18 hours a day. When we say someone is hardcore in an MMO, we absolutey mean someone that plays A LOT. What else could it mean, since there's no skill involved?
Things that take a long time are hard. Hold out your arm. Easy, right? Now hold out your arm for 3 days. Not so easy now is it?
I would ad do not ask for developers to stop making Theme Park games like WoW. Just because you're burned out on them doesn't mean there were not millions of babies born today that will grow up and play an MMORPG for the first time.
It takes 50 minutes for my dishing machine to wash dishes. The fact that it takes 50 minutes doesnt make it hard.
That seems like a non-sequitor. What makes you think I feel that way? I think WoW is an amazing PvE game. I don't think its perfect, but Wow is a masterpiece in many ways. It and EvE are the two best MMOs Ive ever played and Ive tried many. I liked UO alot too.
That seems like a non-sequitor. What makes you think I feel that way? I think WoW is an amazing PvE game. I don't think its perfect, but Wow is a masterpiece in many ways. It and EvE are the two best MMOs Ive ever played and Ive tried many. I liked UO alot too.
I didn't give any thought to how you might personally feel about it. How do you know I feel like the 7 rules you posted? I am merely modifying the rules.
I am deleting 3 and 6, and adding the one above for all the people that cry "Stop making WoW clones!". Why would developers stop making WoW clones? Sure, you (not you in particular, but "you" in general) might have been playing games since UO and you're ready for something else. But many kids are just now reaching the age they can log onto an MMO and a WoW clone will seem like a wonderful adventure for them.
1. If you have spent more than 1 month playing a game, you are not allowed to say it sucks. It must have had some positive qualities or your wouldnt have spent that much time playing it. Have some perspective.
So is it ok for someone to say a game sucks if they only spent five minutes playing it?
2. No one is allowed to complain about "grinding" anymore. MMOs as a genre has alot of repetive gameplay. If you dont enjoy it, find a new genre.
Do we have your permission to discuss the pros and cons of different types of grinding? How can anyone ever express a negative opinion about a particular type of gameplay without it being "complaining"? So basically you're telling us that we can never say anything bad about any MMO ever.
3. You are not an "elite hardcore gamer" just because you dont have a life/job and thus can play 18 hours a day. Not having a relationship, children or job doesnt make you awsome or in a position to be condesending to people who dont have all day to play.
Yeah, I have no problem with that but aren't you being just a tiny bit condescending and judgemental by posting these "rules"?
4. Please never use the term "sandbox". Its way too reductionistic and there is no well accepted meaning on what that is anyway.
So if we can't use the term "sandbox" then shouldn't we also be forbiden to use any other term that could possibly be interpretted differently by different people? The terms "themepark" and "linear" should then also be disallowed. In fact, just about any descriptive terminology would have to be disallowed if it couldn't be nailed down to a point by point, unvarying definition.
It turns out that these terms don't have to be absolutely precise. They are generalizations and most of us understand the general idea conveyed by the terms even if we might interpret them slightly differently.
5. Skill-based and class-based are both viable game mechanics. Ive played good and bad games using both approaches.
Ok
6. Don't confuse "hard" with "timesink". Just because something takes a long tome doesnt make it hard.
That's ok too but you should have added this rule: Just because something takes very little time doesn't necessarily make it fun.
7. Instead of spewing rage on the internet (my irony sense is tingling), use that energy to pray to your personal deity asking that someone makes a fantasy MMORPG that allows players to create own realms/cities and has a deep player-run economy yet has good PvE and is not a mindless gankfest.
Oh, you mean a game with sandbox elements? Oh...wait, I just broke the rules didn't I?
/thread
Good shot OP.
What is sad is actually people are only interested in bad news. So if you want attention you have to be "evil".
Even we all know it's much more difficult to write a well put, constructive post than flame down all the way.
8: So what? There are hundreds of people that have browsed this forum for a loong time and never cared to /join till lately
9: Did you ever heard about quality vs quantity? It's funny because I add much more value to a well done post when it's made by someone that has few posts under his account.
10: 100% disagree and for the record I played pong also.
11: not equally but balance is the key. Agreed.
12: I find this one funny