Now, to be realistic, in todays world we have this thing called INSURANCE. When you drive a car,boat,plane, etc and you have an accident and you loose your transportation, your insurance company pays you for the cost of your lost transportation thus allowing you to replace your lost items. It stands to reason that in the future there would be something similar. Now im not saying that there will be insurance in JGE but the concept that having your ship totally destroyed and not replaced is pretty silly.
I don't think anyone is really saying that there must be complete and total loss. Both PotBS and EVE, two MMOs with ship loss, have some form of insurance. HOWEVER....
If you really want to do a real world comparison (which is silly, but why not...) find a company that will insure a military vehicle that you intend to use in combat. You can get insurance for it, but it probably will cover everything except combat.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
No. That is the right decision. Can you imagine everytime someone got killed, he has to grind back his whole ship?
And there marks an area where there is a distinct difference between types of players. The majority of MMO gamers would be in the situation you describe. There is another group, unfortunately a small one, that doesn't take equipment to battle unless he has a backup set ready so that he can jump into it and right back into battle. Bascially : Preparation. The former feels they shouldn't have to and won't do it, and the latter feels it's a common sense convenience.
Two very distinct playstyles. For most MMO gamers, preparing for loss sucks, and loss itself sucks. There's not a whole lot of fun in either for them. Leaving out loss of ship seems like a great way to appeal to a much broader range of gamers.
But this is interesting. Not only mmo players, but human nature for a majority also. Most dont want to lose anything or take risks for anything real-life related anytime and are looking for entertainment that is care-free and safe, just the same. There is a minority, I'd suppose that are the risk-takers, the builders, the ones that welcome challenge knowing that the greatest rewards come from taking risks and learning from losing.
Actually.. It has nothing to do with risk taking.. If you honestly believed that, I welcome you to go take the risk of stealing or distroying whatever you want from someone you claim to be an enemy.. and see just how understanding or rewarding it is.. I dont' see them calling you a "risk-taker" or "builder".. I"m thinking the name terrorist might be used tho.. Rather, it's a game or life, one should idolize poor character flaws.. Some might like the game "grand theft auto", but I for one dont' idolize the characters of that game as heroes..
phewww I hope you don't view Hitler as a "risk-taker" or "builder" and praised his ability to accept the challenge..
This discussion is very similar to another discussion, namely between the Pre-CU SWG and SW:TOR fans. Both discussions are pretty much pointless (aka requesting one developer to carbon copy features from another developer). At least the EVE players have a game to fall back to, if Jumpgate is not satisfactory.
HAHAHA I just wanna say I jumped on these forums to see what the latest pvp talk about this game was and this was the first thread I found. Wow the first page is almost all pvp discussion threads. PVP oriented players being 1% of the market my ass. I agree with all the flamers on this forum, this game is going to fail.
It amazes me how people can read .. but still are illiterate.. NO ONE said PvP makes up 1% of the market.. I think you need to reread the POST again and this time.. READ all the words and put them together.. There are over 20 million people estimated playing MMO's worldwide..and how many are subscribers to PvP (item loss) games? lmaooooooo NEXT..
Dun-Duh-Duh. You learn to read ashat. I said PvP oriented players not just PvP. Anyone who simply likes to PvP in that type of casual style is not PvP oriented. Why don't you just go fight some computer AI somewhere? You will never get any depth to simple battles. No sort of conquering of stations, space, resources, ect. No gain from killing someone except so you can wave your e-peen around on the ranking boards. You ever played Eve? Been to Jita with 500 carebears in the system at one time? How about out in 0.0 with 3000 PvPers in one system? If any game anywhere can ever get 3000 people to meet on their own accord in one location out of thousands just so they can kill other players and make them lose their ships then that shows that so many more people aren't as pansy as you. Keep telling yourself that 99% of the market is as much of a puss as you if it makes you feel better but it's not true.
Why oh why do avid Pvpers like Boost think they are tough because they can kill someones pixels. Want to see how tough you are go into law enforcement or join the military and go play in the sand for a year but don't even pretend that because you can kill some pixels and some don't that they are some sort of pansy. Attitudes like that remind me of some of the criminals I used to deal with on a regular basis.
First of all, even in PvP-MMORPGs like EVE and WAR, over half the playerbase never engages in it. According to statistics by CCP themselves, only around 20% of EVEs players enter 0.0 space,and over 50% never have left High-Sec.
PvPers are just an extremely vocal minority of forum warriors, but while not a tiny group, are nowhere near a market segment you can base a game off exclusively... which is why these attempts fail, or sooner or later have to rely on non-PvP stuff to keep the people.
JGE doesnt have even remotely the depth of EVE, its all about the action. Thus, you ll have to make sure that action is suitable for your majority of rarely-to-never PvP players.
Ship loss is entirely dependant on how hard it is to get your ship back, and whether or not your ship IS you. EVE has this pervading feel of "you" piloting your ship. It doesnt hurt that much, it doesnt feel like dying. Its just a ship. JGE seems to go the "you are the ship" route, so people might identify more with it.
In any case, so far the PvP hasnt been able to launch big games, esp. not if its too harsh on carebears. Thus, JGE is doing the financially sound decision to cater to the carebears first.
This discussion is very similar to another discussion, namely between the Pre-CU SWG and SW:TOR fans. Both discussions are pretty much pointless (aka requesting one developer to carbon copy features from another developer). At least the EVE players have a game to fall back to, if Jumpgate is not satisfactory.
With SWG/SW:TOR there is a bit more room for comparison as the underlying IP is at least the same "universe". That said, they should still be treated as completely separate games which some Pre-CU players can't seem to do. Just as a disclaimer, I was a Pre-CU player as well. With Eve and JGE, they both take place in space sure, but they don't share any other background as far as I am aware.
Honestly, any decision a dev makes is going to alienate some portion of people waiting for a game. They could decide that a certain ship is going to be red instead of blue and people will throw up their hands in disgust and promise to never play the game. At least the information is out there and people can make a choice based on their play style. Personally, I think the differences between JGE and Eve will be what allows each game to be successful without having to canibalize each others player bases. But, time is the best judge in these situations...
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
No. That is the right decision. Can you imagine everytime someone got killed, he has to grind back his whole ship?
And there marks an area where there is a distinct difference between types of players. The majority of MMO gamers would be in the situation you describe. There is another group, unfortunately a small one, that doesn't take equipment to battle unless he has a backup set ready so that he can jump into it and right back into battle. Bascially : Preparation. The former feels they shouldn't have to and won't do it, and the latter feels it's a common sense convenience.
Two very distinct playstyles. For most MMO gamers, preparing for loss sucks, and loss itself sucks. There's not a whole lot of fun in either for them. Leaving out loss of ship seems like a great way to appeal to a much broader range of gamers.
But this is interesting. Not only mmo players, but human nature for a majority also. Most dont want to lose anything or take risks for anything real-life related anytime and are looking for entertainment that is care-free and safe, just the same. There is a minority, I'd suppose that are the risk-takers, the builders, the ones that welcome challenge knowing that the greatest rewards come from taking risks and learning from losing.
Actually.. It has nothing to do with risk taking.. If you honestly believed that, I welcome you to go take the risk of stealing or distroying whatever you want from someone you claim to be an enemy.. and see just how understanding or rewarding it is.. I dont' see them calling you a "risk-taker" or "builder".. I"m thinking the name terrorist might be used tho.. Rather, it's a game or life, one should idolize poor character flaws.. Some might like the game "grand theft auto", but I for one dont' idolize the characters of that game as heroes..
phewww I hope you don't view Hitler as a "risk-taker" or "builder" and praised his ability to accept the challenge..
But it does have to do with risk taking. Life doesnt hand you rewards, but games do. Games like the ones that many clamor for are safe and less competitive and dont offer risk of loss to what your working towards in character development, where the computer controlled mob is safe, predictable, non-intelligent, doesn't pursue or disrupt how 'you' want to play the game.
Thats interesting, I thought; how 'you' want to play the game. I often wonder if that same large community of safety players would want a pause button.
I've been looking long and hard for a game other than eve that is worthwhile to play.
I've been in eve for 5 years, and I hate griefers, scammers, and pirates. I am 100% whitehat, I've NEVER fired unprovoked on another player in all that time.
I also hate games where death means nothing and your biggest challenges are PvE.
What's the point in being a good guy if other players can't be bad guys? Where's the sense of challenge and accomplishment if you don't have to put it all on the line to get ahead?
I LOVE eve because it isn't afraid to kick you in the teeth and be unapoligetic about it. I pray another developer besides CCP will have the guts to take this road.
I'm on the verge of giving up hope on gaming altogether. The ONLY place you'll find a real challenge is against unfettered human opponents.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
No penalty for dieing is actually what worries me most about this game. Yes having a game you can jump on and play for a while, die, respawn play, kill, die, respawn, ect is fun, but it doesn't have the depth and excitment needed to keep players subscribed. The majority of hardcore Eve-Online fans that have been playing the longest are the ones that are in 0.0 alliances where there are no rules and when you lose a ship it's gone, and with out that hardcore aspect this game is going to be as casual as ever. IMO a game simply can't be all casual but at the same time it can't be all hardcore, (I hate to keep bringing eve up but...) Eve managed this with the high-sec, low-sec, no-sec system where it gives the players the choice on lifestyle. And what works so well in Eve is that some players will choose to stay in high-sec while some will choose to stay in no-sec where they make that their home permenetly while others will go back and forth between the 2 (but it's not all that easy to simply jump into high-sec and scream "haha I'm safe"). Now you can not throw instansed pvp or even have a battle-ground areas and call that equal to what Eve has managaed. The best way for any game to balance is to have large safe areas and large contestable areas where guild politics will govern the control of the land, economy, and laws. If Jumpgate doesn't see this then it is not going to have the longterm subscriptions that Eve has managed. I plan on buying this game and playing it, but if there is no hardcore depth I will not play for more than a month or 2.
LOL .. dont worry there are millions who want to die, and jump back action players out there.
I've been looking long and hard for a game other than eve that is worthwhile to play. I've been in eve for 5 years, and I hate griefers, scammers, and pirates. I am 100% whitehat, I've NEVER fired unprovoked on another player in all that time. I also hate games where death means nothing and your biggest challenges are PvE. What's the point in being a good guy if other players can't be bad guys? Where's the sense of challenge and accomplishment if you don't have to put it all on the line to get ahead? I LOVE eve because it isn't afraid to kick you in the teeth and be unapoligetic about it. I pray another developer besides CCP will have the guts to take this road. I'm on the verge of giving up hope on gaming altogether. The ONLY place you'll find a real challenge is against unfettered human opponents.
Cause that is NOT the point of a game. People play games to consume content and have fun. Accomplishmetn in games is an illusion anyway.
No real challenge is needed in a game. When i want a real challenge, i go to work.
I've been looking long and hard for a game other than eve that is worthwhile to play. I've been in eve for 5 years, and I hate griefers, scammers, and pirates. I am 100% whitehat, I've NEVER fired unprovoked on another player in all that time. I also hate games where death means nothing and your biggest challenges are PvE. What's the point in being a good guy if other players can't be bad guys? Where's the sense of challenge and accomplishment if you don't have to put it all on the line to get ahead? I LOVE eve because it isn't afraid to kick you in the teeth and be unapoligetic about it. I pray another developer besides CCP will have the guts to take this road. I'm on the verge of giving up hope on gaming altogether. The ONLY place you'll find a real challenge is against unfettered human opponents.
Cause that is NOT the point of a game. People play games to consume content and have fun. Accomplishmetn in games is an illusion anyway.
No real challenge is needed in a game. When i want a real challenge, i go to work.
Interesting. Everything I do for fun has some element of challenge.. mountaineering, distance running, etc...
Different strokes for different folks. I guess I need a game to be challenging in some way for it to seem worthy of my time.
And I beg to differ.. being successful in eve DOES take some skill so it is an accomplishment of sorts. Whether it has any real value... well, I'll give you that one : )
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I've been looking long and hard for a game other than eve that is worthwhile to play. I've been in eve for 5 years, and I hate griefers, scammers, and pirates. I am 100% whitehat, I've NEVER fired unprovoked on another player in all that time. I also hate games where death means nothing and your biggest challenges are PvE. What's the point in being a good guy if other players can't be bad guys? Where's the sense of challenge and accomplishment if you don't have to put it all on the line to get ahead? I LOVE eve because it isn't afraid to kick you in the teeth and be unapoligetic about it. I pray another developer besides CCP will have the guts to take this road. I'm on the verge of giving up hope on gaming altogether. The ONLY place you'll find a real challenge is against unfettered human opponents.
Cause that is NOT the point of a game. People play games to consume content and have fun. Accomplishmetn in games is an illusion anyway.
No real challenge is needed in a game. When i want a real challenge, i go to work.
Interesting. Everything I do for fun has some element of challenge.. mountaineering, distance running, etc...
Different strokes for different folks. I guess I need a game to be challenging in some way for it to seem worthy of my time.
And I beg to differ.. being successful in eve DOES take some skill so it is an accomplishment of sorts. Whether it has any real value... well, I'll give you that one : )
There doesn't have to be complete ship loss for the game to be fun. All loss can be reduced down to time and money JGE just reduces the time loss and makes you pay a fee to get fixed.
Remember Eve is not that fun and this game is not market focused and Eve style loss is out of date and we need to think outside the Eve-box so be open minded cause your gonna miss out on some real awesome action if you pass this game up.
Do not be fouled into thinking that Eve loss is the way to go for JGE. You have been brain washed!
Actually.. It has nothing to do with risk taking.. If you honestly believed that, I welcome you to go take the risk of stealing or distroying whatever you want from someone you claim to be an enemy.. and see just how understanding or rewarding it is.. I dont' see them calling you a "risk-taker" or "builder".. I"m thinking the name terrorist might be used tho.. Rather, it's a game or life, one should idolize poor character flaws.. Some might like the game "grand theft auto", but I for one dont' idolize the characters of that game as heroes.. phewww I hope you don't view Hitler as a "risk-taker" or "builder" and praised his ability to accept the challenge..
Cheerios + Pee = bad way to start your day, man.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I've been looking long and hard for a game other than eve that is worthwhile to play. I've been in eve for 5 years, and I hate griefers, scammers, and pirates. I am 100% whitehat, I've NEVER fired unprovoked on another player in all that time. I also hate games where death means nothing and your biggest challenges are PvE. What's the point in being a good guy if other players can't be bad guys? Where's the sense of challenge and accomplishment if you don't have to put it all on the line to get ahead? I LOVE eve because it isn't afraid to kick you in the teeth and be unapoligetic about it. I pray another developer besides CCP will have the guts to take this road. I'm on the verge of giving up hope on gaming altogether. The ONLY place you'll find a real challenge is against unfettered human opponents.
Cause that is NOT the point of a game. People play games to consume content and have fun. Accomplishmetn in games is an illusion anyway.
No real challenge is needed in a game. When i want a real challenge, i go to work.
Interesting. Everything I do for fun has some element of challenge.. mountaineering, distance running, etc...
Different strokes for different folks. I guess I need a game to be challenging in some way for it to seem worthy of my time.
And I beg to differ.. being successful in eve DOES take some skill so it is an accomplishment of sorts. Whether it has any real value... well, I'll give you that one : )
There doesn't have to be complete ship loss for the game to be fun. All loss can be reduced down to time and money JGE just reduces the time loss and makes you pay a fee to get fixed.
Remember Eve is not that fun and this game is not market focused and Eve style loss is out of date and we need to think outside the Eve-box so be open minded cause your gonna miss out on some real awesome action if you pass this game up.
Do not be fouled into thinking that Eve loss is the way to go for JGE. You have been brain washed!
For those of us who find EVE fun, the "awesome" action you speak of does not hold long term appeal. Just like some folks in WOW can run the same battleground 4000 times, I expect JGE will cater to this same sort of player.
Combat in EVE is more more like real life, you actually have strong incentive to use tactics to avoid dying while inflicting the maximum casulties on your enemy. Its not for everyone, some people prefer more of a shooter style where the only thing of interest is the combat, not avoiding it.
Different strokes for different folks. Like someone said earlier, we can give JGE a try and if its not fun, we always have EVE.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The reason I quit playing EvE was because of the very steep penalty for dying. Even though it was my own fault, flying into a low security zone, but still , I worked hard to get my ship and equipment, just to see it all go up in a white flash. Sure you get some money back if you're insured, but that doesn't compensate the hours of flying around collecting the equipment you want for you r ship.
JGE will be more of an action MMO, so I'm fine with low penalties.
Ok I played EVE Online for bout 2 years...and stopped when it became nothing but a gankfest. You cannot do anything of substinance in game without going into O.O space and even if you stay in safer space and just fork up the money to buy the hightend stuff from the 0.0 space alliances...the WARS are what drove me away. I was in a happy little safe spacing industrial corp, we mined, and built stuff. That was pretty much what we did. We enjoyed it. We had all of 50 members but we had big allies whom were our main customers. Then came the changes to how wars were done. Suddenly we had wars declared on us out the ying-yang and the only way out of them was if we surrendered which always came at a huge cost. Our allies helped us at first but after bout the 6th war...they were less than thrilled and our business suffered for it. And before you say well someone in your corp musta been pissing alot of people off....thats not true...we were attacked simply because we were an industrial corp and thus were deemed easy targets. After a while we disbanded and reformed under a new name but that didnt help, we were less than a month old and again the wars declarations started. Alot of our members quit playing EVE by this time and the few of us left just gave up the ghost and disbanded. We divided up what little we had left and a few moved into alliance corps but the majority of us...42 out of the original 50...left the game and never went bck.
I dont mind so much the lack of penatly for dying though I think some penalty should be there. Just something not as severe as EVE.
While i too prefer some penalty for death it's not always the only way. First - it depends on style of play. EVE is slower, almost strategy/tactical like game. The main part of it's PVP combat is analysis of situation, predicting the outcome, planing tactics etc. JGE gonna be more like space fighting game - it's a lot faster and you can't controll the risk there just as well. The penalty should be proportional to speed and risk of the game. Less risk = more fights, faster gameplay. But it not always mean less fun - penalties can be different. Instead of punishing individual players you can punish group for losses and reward for ictrories.
For example - If your guild/corporation or whatever can buy some large mothership/cruiser that gives whole guild some PVP bonuses, resources etc and some other group attacks you to destroy or capture it - there's your penalty. You and your guild mates respawn quickly and back to battlefield with little/no penalty, but if you loose that ship - whole guild will loose something. Since PVP is group oriented in most cases then group penalties can work very well.
What I meant was, The game mechanic of JGE hasn't changed since JG so it's a bit late to complain about no ship loss. If I'm wrong, fair enough, but that's the impression I got a few years ago. And, hey, it's not like there isn't a FFA Full Loot PvP game out there at the moment...
Hmmm no JG Classic has ship destruction. In fact even docking a station wrong destroys your ship. JGC is actually harsher and FAR more dangerous to a ship than EvE since any bad environmental impact will destroy your ship. Both docking and mining can easily get you smashed.
However JGC allows you to basically rebuy your ship without doing all the shopping that might be involved with a higher end EvE ship. The only trick is having the components replaced.
people seem to be forgetting that death penalty losses dont just prevent people from charging in solo against 100 ships. It also stimulates the in-game economy without fear of losing anything. Without real losses the game would have a huge abundance of isk, to the point where a T1 cruiser would cost 300m isk. I'm not sure about JG's economy, but if there isnt enough money sinks the economy will definetly get out of hand.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
In case you haven't been told or know.. People wanting PvP with consequences are probably 1% of the market.. Why on hell's Earth would you want to design a game that targets that small percentage? If JGE is anything like Eve without the PvP penalty, I wouldn't be surprised to see 33%, if not more, of Eve's server population drop like a prom dress.. That is one drawing point games like WoW have in concerns of PvP.. ONLY rewards are possible for PvP, with NO penalty.. If I spent the better 1/2 of the hour mining raw materials ONLY to lose it to a pair of snot nosed teenages that like to gang up and pirate weaker ships.. NO thanks..
Tell that to all the people who play and love EVE. And its not 1%!
Losing your ship helps the game in many ways including a economy system and a market that actually works, makes PvP Important and makes one think twice before he does something like PKing , creates community as youll need to have friends to protect you and be part of a guild that can help you make a new ship, and many more.
If we were talking about a game with online components It would have been nice. But we are talking about an MMO here and in MMOs there are more things than just combat.
In case you haven't been told or know.. People wanting PvP with consequences are probably 1% of the market.. Why on hell's Earth would you want to design a game that targets that small percentage? If JGE is anything like Eve without the PvP penalty, I wouldn't be surprised to see 33%, if not more, of Eve's server population drop like a prom dress.. That is one drawing point games like WoW have in concerns of PvP.. ONLY rewards are possible for PvP, with NO penalty.. If I spent the better 1/2 of the hour mining raw materials ONLY to lose it to a pair of snot nosed teenages that like to gang up and pirate weaker ships.. NO thanks..
Tell that to all the people who play and love EVE. And its not 1%!
Losing your ship helps the game in many ways including a economy system and a market that actually works, makes PvP Important and makes one think twice before he does something like PKing , creates community as youll need to have friends to protect you and be part of a guild that can help you make a new ship, and many more.
If we were talking about a game with online components It would have been nice. But we are talking about an MMO here and in MMOs there are more things than just combat.
I surely dont want WoW PvP in space!
I surely don't want Eve's pvp where no one really battles and if they do they are not doing it for long because it taxes the wallet and is tough to refit in a short time so you can have some more fun.
Not to many people think the persuite of money is the most fun you can have in an mmo.
In case you haven't been told or know.. People wanting PvP with consequences are probably 1% of the market.. Why on hell's Earth would you want to design a game that targets that small percentage? If JGE is anything like Eve without the PvP penalty, I wouldn't be surprised to see 33%, if not more, of Eve's server population drop like a prom dress.. That is one drawing point games like WoW have in concerns of PvP.. ONLY rewards are possible for PvP, with NO penalty.. If I spent the better 1/2 of the hour mining raw materials ONLY to lose it to a pair of snot nosed teenages that like to gang up and pirate weaker ships.. NO thanks..
Tell that to all the people who play and love EVE. And its not 1%!
Losing your ship helps the game in many ways including a economy system and a market that actually works, makes PvP Important and makes one think twice before he does something like PKing , creates community as youll need to have friends to protect you and be part of a guild that can help you make a new ship, and many more.
If we were talking about a game with online components It would have been nice. But we are talking about an MMO here and in MMOs there are more things than just combat.
I surely dont want WoW PvP in space!
I surely don't want Eve's pvp where no one really battles and if they do they are not doing it for long because it taxes the wallet and is tough to refit in a short time so you can have some more fun.
Not to many people think the persuite of money is the most fun you can have in an mmo.
Its not the pursuit of money the only goal in the game.
I find world domination more interesting :P
Basically each player can set his own goals.
The thing is that in EVE every action is followed by some consequences and that makes the game more immersive and makes a player driven game that after 6 years from its original release is increasing in numbers every day.
Im afraid that JGE will feel like the Battlegrounds in WoW.... pointless. Fun at first... but pointless in the long run.
In case you haven't been told or know.. People wanting PvP with consequences are probably 1% of the market.. Why on hell's Earth would you want to design a game that targets that small percentage? If JGE is anything like Eve without the PvP penalty, I wouldn't be surprised to see 33%, if not more, of Eve's server population drop like a prom dress.. That is one drawing point games like WoW have in concerns of PvP.. ONLY rewards are possible for PvP, with NO penalty.. If I spent the better 1/2 of the hour mining raw materials ONLY to lose it to a pair of snot nosed teenages that like to gang up and pirate weaker ships.. NO thanks..
Tell that to all the people who play and love EVE. And its not 1%!
Losing your ship helps the game in many ways including a economy system and a market that actually works, makes PvP Important and makes one think twice before he does something like PKing , creates community as youll need to have friends to protect you and be part of a guild that can help you make a new ship, and many more.
If we were talking about a game with online components It would have been nice. But we are talking about an MMO here and in MMOs there are more things than just combat.
I surely dont want WoW PvP in space!
I surely don't want Eve's pvp where no one really battles and if they do they are not doing it for long because it taxes the wallet and is tough to refit in a short time so you can have some more fun.
Not to many people think the persuite of money is the most fun you can have in an mmo.
Its not the pursuit of money the only goal in the game.
I find world domination more interesting :P
Basically each player can set his own goals.
The thing is that in EVE every action is followed by some consequences and that makes the game more immersive and makes a player driven game that after 6 years from its original release is increasing in numbers every day.
Im afraid that JGE will feel like the Battlegrounds in WoW.... pointless. Fun at first... but pointless in the long run.
Complete loss does not have to be the consequence that makes the game immersing. There is some appeal in working to build an empire. I just think there is more than one way to make it work and I like the way that offers more fun combat action.
It's about having fun while you build up your character and Eve is low on the fun meter.
Comments
I don't think anyone is really saying that there must be complete and total loss. Both PotBS and EVE, two MMOs with ship loss, have some form of insurance. HOWEVER....
If you really want to do a real world comparison (which is silly, but why not...) find a company that will insure a military vehicle that you intend to use in combat. You can get insurance for it, but it probably will cover everything except combat.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
And there marks an area where there is a distinct difference between types of players. The majority of MMO gamers would be in the situation you describe. There is another group, unfortunately a small one, that doesn't take equipment to battle unless he has a backup set ready so that he can jump into it and right back into battle. Bascially : Preparation. The former feels they shouldn't have to and won't do it, and the latter feels it's a common sense convenience.
Two very distinct playstyles. For most MMO gamers, preparing for loss sucks, and loss itself sucks. There's not a whole lot of fun in either for them. Leaving out loss of ship seems like a great way to appeal to a much broader range of gamers.
But this is interesting. Not only mmo players, but human nature for a majority also. Most dont want to lose anything or take risks for anything real-life related anytime and are looking for entertainment that is care-free and safe, just the same. There is a minority, I'd suppose that are the risk-takers, the builders, the ones that welcome challenge knowing that the greatest rewards come from taking risks and learning from losing.
Actually.. It has nothing to do with risk taking.. If you honestly believed that, I welcome you to go take the risk of stealing or distroying whatever you want from someone you claim to be an enemy.. and see just how understanding or rewarding it is.. I dont' see them calling you a "risk-taker" or "builder".. I"m thinking the name terrorist might be used tho.. Rather, it's a game or life, one should idolize poor character flaws.. Some might like the game "grand theft auto", but I for one dont' idolize the characters of that game as heroes..
phewww I hope you don't view Hitler as a "risk-taker" or "builder" and praised his ability to accept the challenge..
This discussion is very similar to another discussion, namely between the Pre-CU SWG and SW:TOR fans. Both discussions are pretty much pointless (aka requesting one developer to carbon copy features from another developer). At least the EVE players have a game to fall back to, if Jumpgate is not satisfactory.
It amazes me how people can read .. but still are illiterate.. NO ONE said PvP makes up 1% of the market.. I think you need to reread the POST again and this time.. READ all the words and put them together.. There are over 20 million people estimated playing MMO's worldwide..and how many are subscribers to PvP (item loss) games? lmaooooooo NEXT..
Dun-Duh-Duh. You learn to read ashat. I said PvP oriented players not just PvP. Anyone who simply likes to PvP in that type of casual style is not PvP oriented. Why don't you just go fight some computer AI somewhere? You will never get any depth to simple battles. No sort of conquering of stations, space, resources, ect. No gain from killing someone except so you can wave your e-peen around on the ranking boards. You ever played Eve? Been to Jita with 500 carebears in the system at one time? How about out in 0.0 with 3000 PvPers in one system? If any game anywhere can ever get 3000 people to meet on their own accord in one location out of thousands just so they can kill other players and make them lose their ships then that shows that so many more people aren't as pansy as you. Keep telling yourself that 99% of the market is as much of a puss as you if it makes you feel better but it's not true.
Why oh why do avid Pvpers like Boost think they are tough because they can kill someones pixels. Want to see how tough you are go into law enforcement or join the military and go play in the sand for a year but don't even pretend that because you can kill some pixels and some don't that they are some sort of pansy. Attitudes like that remind me of some of the criminals I used to deal with on a regular basis.
First of all, even in PvP-MMORPGs like EVE and WAR, over half the playerbase never engages in it. According to statistics by CCP themselves, only around 20% of EVEs players enter 0.0 space,and over 50% never have left High-Sec.
PvPers are just an extremely vocal minority of forum warriors, but while not a tiny group, are nowhere near a market segment you can base a game off exclusively... which is why these attempts fail, or sooner or later have to rely on non-PvP stuff to keep the people.
JGE doesnt have even remotely the depth of EVE, its all about the action. Thus, you ll have to make sure that action is suitable for your majority of rarely-to-never PvP players.
Ship loss is entirely dependant on how hard it is to get your ship back, and whether or not your ship IS you. EVE has this pervading feel of "you" piloting your ship. It doesnt hurt that much, it doesnt feel like dying. Its just a ship. JGE seems to go the "you are the ship" route, so people might identify more with it.
In any case, so far the PvP hasnt been able to launch big games, esp. not if its too harsh on carebears. Thus, JGE is doing the financially sound decision to cater to the carebears first.
With SWG/SW:TOR there is a bit more room for comparison as the underlying IP is at least the same "universe". That said, they should still be treated as completely separate games which some Pre-CU players can't seem to do. Just as a disclaimer, I was a Pre-CU player as well. With Eve and JGE, they both take place in space sure, but they don't share any other background as far as I am aware.
Honestly, any decision a dev makes is going to alienate some portion of people waiting for a game. They could decide that a certain ship is going to be red instead of blue and people will throw up their hands in disgust and promise to never play the game. At least the information is out there and people can make a choice based on their play style. Personally, I think the differences between JGE and Eve will be what allows each game to be successful without having to canibalize each others player bases. But, time is the best judge in these situations...
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
And there marks an area where there is a distinct difference between types of players. The majority of MMO gamers would be in the situation you describe. There is another group, unfortunately a small one, that doesn't take equipment to battle unless he has a backup set ready so that he can jump into it and right back into battle. Bascially : Preparation. The former feels they shouldn't have to and won't do it, and the latter feels it's a common sense convenience.
Two very distinct playstyles. For most MMO gamers, preparing for loss sucks, and loss itself sucks. There's not a whole lot of fun in either for them. Leaving out loss of ship seems like a great way to appeal to a much broader range of gamers.
But this is interesting. Not only mmo players, but human nature for a majority also. Most dont want to lose anything or take risks for anything real-life related anytime and are looking for entertainment that is care-free and safe, just the same. There is a minority, I'd suppose that are the risk-takers, the builders, the ones that welcome challenge knowing that the greatest rewards come from taking risks and learning from losing.
Actually.. It has nothing to do with risk taking.. If you honestly believed that, I welcome you to go take the risk of stealing or distroying whatever you want from someone you claim to be an enemy.. and see just how understanding or rewarding it is.. I dont' see them calling you a "risk-taker" or "builder".. I"m thinking the name terrorist might be used tho.. Rather, it's a game or life, one should idolize poor character flaws.. Some might like the game "grand theft auto", but I for one dont' idolize the characters of that game as heroes..
phewww I hope you don't view Hitler as a "risk-taker" or "builder" and praised his ability to accept the challenge..
But it does have to do with risk taking. Life doesnt hand you rewards, but games do. Games like the ones that many clamor for are safe and less competitive and dont offer risk of loss to what your working towards in character development, where the computer controlled mob is safe, predictable, non-intelligent, doesn't pursue or disrupt how 'you' want to play the game.
Thats interesting, I thought; how 'you' want to play the game. I often wonder if that same large community of safety players would want a pause button.
I've been looking long and hard for a game other than eve that is worthwhile to play.
I've been in eve for 5 years, and I hate griefers, scammers, and pirates. I am 100% whitehat, I've NEVER fired unprovoked on another player in all that time.
I also hate games where death means nothing and your biggest challenges are PvE.
What's the point in being a good guy if other players can't be bad guys? Where's the sense of challenge and accomplishment if you don't have to put it all on the line to get ahead?
I LOVE eve because it isn't afraid to kick you in the teeth and be unapoligetic about it. I pray another developer besides CCP will have the guts to take this road.
I'm on the verge of giving up hope on gaming altogether. The ONLY place you'll find a real challenge is against unfettered human opponents.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
LOL .. dont worry there are millions who want to die, and jump back action players out there.
Cause that is NOT the point of a game. People play games to consume content and have fun. Accomplishmetn in games is an illusion anyway.
No real challenge is needed in a game. When i want a real challenge, i go to work.
Cause that is NOT the point of a game. People play games to consume content and have fun. Accomplishmetn in games is an illusion anyway.
No real challenge is needed in a game. When i want a real challenge, i go to work.
Interesting. Everything I do for fun has some element of challenge.. mountaineering, distance running, etc...
Different strokes for different folks. I guess I need a game to be challenging in some way for it to seem worthy of my time.
And I beg to differ.. being successful in eve DOES take some skill so it is an accomplishment of sorts. Whether it has any real value... well, I'll give you that one : )
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Cause that is NOT the point of a game. People play games to consume content and have fun. Accomplishmetn in games is an illusion anyway.
No real challenge is needed in a game. When i want a real challenge, i go to work.
Interesting. Everything I do for fun has some element of challenge.. mountaineering, distance running, etc...
Different strokes for different folks. I guess I need a game to be challenging in some way for it to seem worthy of my time.
And I beg to differ.. being successful in eve DOES take some skill so it is an accomplishment of sorts. Whether it has any real value... well, I'll give you that one : )
There doesn't have to be complete ship loss for the game to be fun. All loss can be reduced down to time and money JGE just reduces the time loss and makes you pay a fee to get fixed.
Remember Eve is not that fun and this game is not market focused and Eve style loss is out of date and we need to think outside the Eve-box so be open minded cause your gonna miss out on some real awesome action if you pass this game up.
Do not be fouled into thinking that Eve loss is the way to go for JGE. You have been brain washed!
Cheerios + Pee = bad way to start your day, man.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Cause that is NOT the point of a game. People play games to consume content and have fun. Accomplishmetn in games is an illusion anyway.
No real challenge is needed in a game. When i want a real challenge, i go to work.
Interesting. Everything I do for fun has some element of challenge.. mountaineering, distance running, etc...
Different strokes for different folks. I guess I need a game to be challenging in some way for it to seem worthy of my time.
And I beg to differ.. being successful in eve DOES take some skill so it is an accomplishment of sorts. Whether it has any real value... well, I'll give you that one : )
There doesn't have to be complete ship loss for the game to be fun. All loss can be reduced down to time and money JGE just reduces the time loss and makes you pay a fee to get fixed.
Remember Eve is not that fun and this game is not market focused and Eve style loss is out of date and we need to think outside the Eve-box so be open minded cause your gonna miss out on some real awesome action if you pass this game up.
Do not be fouled into thinking that Eve loss is the way to go for JGE. You have been brain washed!
For those of us who find EVE fun, the "awesome" action you speak of does not hold long term appeal. Just like some folks in WOW can run the same battleground 4000 times, I expect JGE will cater to this same sort of player.
Combat in EVE is more more like real life, you actually have strong incentive to use tactics to avoid dying while inflicting the maximum casulties on your enemy. Its not for everyone, some people prefer more of a shooter style where the only thing of interest is the combat, not avoiding it.
Different strokes for different folks. Like someone said earlier, we can give JGE a try and if its not fun, we always have EVE.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The reason I quit playing EvE was because of the very steep penalty for dying. Even though it was my own fault, flying into a low security zone, but still , I worked hard to get my ship and equipment, just to see it all go up in a white flash. Sure you get some money back if you're insured, but that doesn't compensate the hours of flying around collecting the equipment you want for you r ship.
JGE will be more of an action MMO, so I'm fine with low penalties.
Ok I played EVE Online for bout 2 years...and stopped when it became nothing but a gankfest. You cannot do anything of substinance in game without going into O.O space and even if you stay in safer space and just fork up the money to buy the hightend stuff from the 0.0 space alliances...the WARS are what drove me away. I was in a happy little safe spacing industrial corp, we mined, and built stuff. That was pretty much what we did. We enjoyed it. We had all of 50 members but we had big allies whom were our main customers. Then came the changes to how wars were done. Suddenly we had wars declared on us out the ying-yang and the only way out of them was if we surrendered which always came at a huge cost. Our allies helped us at first but after bout the 6th war...they were less than thrilled and our business suffered for it. And before you say well someone in your corp musta been pissing alot of people off....thats not true...we were attacked simply because we were an industrial corp and thus were deemed easy targets. After a while we disbanded and reformed under a new name but that didnt help, we were less than a month old and again the wars declarations started. Alot of our members quit playing EVE by this time and the few of us left just gave up the ghost and disbanded. We divided up what little we had left and a few moved into alliance corps but the majority of us...42 out of the original 50...left the game and never went bck.
I dont mind so much the lack of penatly for dying though I think some penalty should be there. Just something not as severe as EVE.
While i too prefer some penalty for death it's not always the only way. First - it depends on style of play. EVE is slower, almost strategy/tactical like game. The main part of it's PVP combat is analysis of situation, predicting the outcome, planing tactics etc. JGE gonna be more like space fighting game - it's a lot faster and you can't controll the risk there just as well. The penalty should be proportional to speed and risk of the game. Less risk = more fights, faster gameplay. But it not always mean less fun - penalties can be different. Instead of punishing individual players you can punish group for losses and reward for ictrories.
For example - If your guild/corporation or whatever can buy some large mothership/cruiser that gives whole guild some PVP bonuses, resources etc and some other group attacks you to destroy or capture it - there's your penalty. You and your guild mates respawn quickly and back to battlefield with little/no penalty, but if you loose that ship - whole guild will loose something. Since PVP is group oriented in most cases then group penalties can work very well.
Hmmm no JG Classic has ship destruction. In fact even docking a station wrong destroys your ship. JGC is actually harsher and FAR more dangerous to a ship than EvE since any bad environmental impact will destroy your ship. Both docking and mining can easily get you smashed.
However JGC allows you to basically rebuy your ship without doing all the shopping that might be involved with a higher end EvE ship. The only trick is having the components replaced.
people seem to be forgetting that death penalty losses dont just prevent people from charging in solo against 100 ships. It also stimulates the in-game economy without fear of losing anything. Without real losses the game would have a huge abundance of isk, to the point where a T1 cruiser would cost 300m isk. I'm not sure about JG's economy, but if there isnt enough money sinks the economy will definetly get out of hand.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
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Tell that to all the people who play and love EVE. And its not 1%!
Losing your ship helps the game in many ways including a economy system and a market that actually works, makes PvP Important and makes one think twice before he does something like PKing , creates community as youll need to have friends to protect you and be part of a guild that can help you make a new ship, and many more.
If we were talking about a game with online components It would have been nice. But we are talking about an MMO here and in MMOs there are more things than just combat.
I surely dont want WoW PvP in space!
If you guys want a death penalty so bad just punch yourself in the nuts everytime you die in pvp. Problem solved.
"I'm sorry but your mmo has been diagnosed with EA and only has X number of days to live."
Tell that to all the people who play and love EVE. And its not 1%!
Losing your ship helps the game in many ways including a economy system and a market that actually works, makes PvP Important and makes one think twice before he does something like PKing , creates community as youll need to have friends to protect you and be part of a guild that can help you make a new ship, and many more.
If we were talking about a game with online components It would have been nice. But we are talking about an MMO here and in MMOs there are more things than just combat.
I surely dont want WoW PvP in space!
I surely don't want Eve's pvp where no one really battles and if they do they are not doing it for long because it taxes the wallet and is tough to refit in a short time so you can have some more fun.
Not to many people think the persuite of money is the most fun you can have in an mmo.
That is the best compromise I have heard in a while lol.
Tell that to all the people who play and love EVE. And its not 1%!
Losing your ship helps the game in many ways including a economy system and a market that actually works, makes PvP Important and makes one think twice before he does something like PKing , creates community as youll need to have friends to protect you and be part of a guild that can help you make a new ship, and many more.
If we were talking about a game with online components It would have been nice. But we are talking about an MMO here and in MMOs there are more things than just combat.
I surely dont want WoW PvP in space!
I surely don't want Eve's pvp where no one really battles and if they do they are not doing it for long because it taxes the wallet and is tough to refit in a short time so you can have some more fun.
Not to many people think the persuite of money is the most fun you can have in an mmo.
Its not the pursuit of money the only goal in the game.
I find world domination more interesting :P
Basically each player can set his own goals.
The thing is that in EVE every action is followed by some consequences and that makes the game more immersive and makes a player driven game that after 6 years from its original release is increasing in numbers every day.
Im afraid that JGE will feel like the Battlegrounds in WoW.... pointless. Fun at first... but pointless in the long run.
Tell that to all the people who play and love EVE. And its not 1%!
Losing your ship helps the game in many ways including a economy system and a market that actually works, makes PvP Important and makes one think twice before he does something like PKing , creates community as youll need to have friends to protect you and be part of a guild that can help you make a new ship, and many more.
If we were talking about a game with online components It would have been nice. But we are talking about an MMO here and in MMOs there are more things than just combat.
I surely dont want WoW PvP in space!
I surely don't want Eve's pvp where no one really battles and if they do they are not doing it for long because it taxes the wallet and is tough to refit in a short time so you can have some more fun.
Not to many people think the persuite of money is the most fun you can have in an mmo.
Its not the pursuit of money the only goal in the game.
I find world domination more interesting :P
Basically each player can set his own goals.
The thing is that in EVE every action is followed by some consequences and that makes the game more immersive and makes a player driven game that after 6 years from its original release is increasing in numbers every day.
Im afraid that JGE will feel like the Battlegrounds in WoW.... pointless. Fun at first... but pointless in the long run.
Complete loss does not have to be the consequence that makes the game immersing. There is some appeal in working to build an empire. I just think there is more than one way to make it work and I like the way that offers more fun combat action.
It's about having fun while you build up your character and Eve is low on the fun meter.