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I cant wrap my mind around the fact there isnt a true D&D MMORPG
qweniden
Member Posts: 151
I mean, it should have been a no-brainer right? Forgotten Realms is a huge and rich IP with lots of established game mechanics.
DDO was one thing but I dont really see that as a real MMORPG.
A D&D MMORPG would have a huge interested base of players.
Comments
D&D's player base is actually pretty small. Look at how the movie did? An MMORPG could not make it on the name alone.
The way most people play games now, all of the lore being Forgotten Realms would just be lost on them. They don't read the lore, they only read the quests when absolutely necessary. They're not really there for the story. They put up with the story only as much as required as they "gear up". They're most affected by the world as a whole, and as far as that is concerned, D&D, or even Forgotten Realms, really offers nothing more than WoW or LOTRO.
D&D has literally millions of players.
The movie was horrible and poorly marketed.
First off, I agree that it seems odd (wrong?) that there isn't a REAL D&D MMO yet. DDO did some stuff right, but it isn't anything like what I expected when I first heard that there was going to be an MMO based on D&D.
Secondly...
Oh well. It wouldn't take "most" MMO players in order to have a hugely successful MMO.
And hey, games like EQ and WoW and all the rest of them have become so massively successful with their absolutely HUGE focus on gear. Who's to say that if a company put out an MMO that is focused on something else, it wouldn't be successful? Imo, no one has just done it right yet; I think that if someone DID do it, make a great MMO with a focus on character development or (yeah, this is a longshot) adventure (think "adventure RPG" games from the 90s), there are more than enough players who would pay to play.
Edit - but just like with anything, a poorly-implemented "new kind of MMO" will fail. Crappy WoW clones fail because they are crappy. Crappy "new kind of MMO" games fail because they are crappy (imo), not because there aren't enough players out there willing to, even eager to, play something different than the itemgrindraidtreadmill.
The d20 system is too complicated for modern WoW-style MMORPGs. I agree with you on the Forgotten Realms setting, however.
Err... no?
Before I go crazy, though, I'll ask a question.
How, exactly, is a game that can be played with a handful of dice, a piece of paper, and a pencil, so complicated that it cannot work as an MMORPG, considering the extent of mechanics that govern current MMORPGs?
And furthermore, who the hell said we were talking about a "modern WoW-style MMORPG" anyways? You think that most people who play D&D would WANT that?
I believe the opposite to be true. The d20 system is far too simplistic. There are far more dice rolls going on behind the scenes in today's MMORPG's.
Besides Wizards of the Coast have already shown us what they believe to be the online extenstion of D&D... and it sucks.
<<<Somebody already commented on this post, I got beat! >>>
I think this is one IP that would have to do a cashflow check before walking through that door. The potential is awesome, but we've all seen how that potential was spent on previous projects. Although I think there is room for a GOOD AD&D MMO, ultimately this is a game that lives in your head (or on paper, however you want to look at it). Hopefully, a developer (re)making a title like this would be looking to throw out the MMO rulebook, but who knows.
I'm gettin' old, they need to hurry up
Ever play Bioware's games?
Put it this way, how is a game that requires a handful of dice, pieces of paper, pencils, a monster manual, a game manual and an arbitrator acting as DM simple enough that it can fit into the "click mob to initiate combat, use a few skills, person with highest HP+DPS wins" model of EQ/WoW-clones?
And yes, we are talking WoW-clones here. It would be possible to make a brilliant BG style d20 MMO with complex game mechanics but that wouldn't be profitable, hence why it doesn't exist.
You could make a fantastic persistant world based on Forgotten Realms, but you'd struggle making an MMORPG out of it, because BALANCE doesn't exist in D&D and we all know how much people complain when you don't have balance amongst your classes.
A couple of things:
1) No, the D20 system is too complex for modern WoW-style PLAYERS
2) Don't make 'modern WoW-style MMORPGs'. Instead make 'modern your own style MMORPGs'
I mean, it should have been a no-brainer right? Forgotten Realms is a huge and rich IP with lots of established game mechanics.
...which has pretty much been ruined with the introduction of the Spellplague...now it feels more like WoW.
And I dont know what posessed the developers of DDO to use Eberron as the campaign for the first official D&D MMO. I really hate everything about it. It feels more sci-fi than anything.
A D&D MMORPG would have a huge interested base of players.
And a D&D-esque true fantasy setting. Like Greyhawk or pre-plague Forgotten Realms. Not that Eberron crap.
PnP D&D is a small group oriented dungeon crawling game. That is exactly what they created with D&D Online. If you don't like the premise of PnP D&D then you're probably not going to like the online game either.
But a true modern MMOG based on D&D does seem like a no-brainer. They don't need to adhere strictly to the d20 system. The d20 system is designed for humans to be able to do conveniently on paper with dice in a reasonable amount of time. Its not like you can use a d1000 on your tabletop game, but you can on a computer!
A D&D MMORPG could use a similar, but more involved system. It might create some nerd-rage in the very small population of PnP D&D fans, but the rest of us would probably not care or even know what rule set they are using in the server die rolls and calculations.
Good joke
First of the film was utter piece of garbage. That is why it failed so badly.
If you look at sale figures for past 10 years on PC, you will see that any game branded with Forgotten Realms was absolute best seller.
Take NWN2 for example.
Lets face it , as a big fan, i can tell you..it was not a very good game. Yet it was one of best selling RPGs in last years.
As for DDO , it was basically shunned by most of D&D fans. Why ?
They took RPG game , that is all about roleplaying and strategy and turned it into action oriented hack and slash.
Why in heavens they thought that was the best representation of wishes of D&D fans..well that beats me.
Honestly I thought Bioware will do Forgotten Realms MMO , instead of Star Wars. I still believe they would do much better with it...
At this point. With launch of "New" D&D 4th edition. I think D&D is slowly heading towards its end. Which is shame.
It is big failure of WOTC. They should have brought it into online space.
Something akin NWN1 , would be the best solution - Online editor and DM client that will let you run adventures and campains...
Put it this way, how is a game that requires a handful of dice, pieces of paper, pencils, a monster manual, a game manual and an arbitrator acting as DM simple enough that it can fit into the "click mob to initiate combat, use a few skills, person with highest HP+DPS wins" model of EQ/WoW-clones?
And yes, we are talking WoW-clones here. It would be possible to make a brilliant BG style d20 MMO with complex game mechanics but that wouldn't be profitable, hence why it doesn't exist.
You talk about D&D rule books as if they are an added thing that make D&D more complicated, but you're missing the fact that there are just as many rules that govern what happens in any MMO. But instead of the rules of an MMO being bound up in a handful of books you have laying around, they're hidden in the gigabytes of code on your computer.
How do you know that this brilliant, complex MMO wouldn't be profitable? If it doesn't exist, you can't know.
Did the printing press not exist prior to the 15th century because it wasn't profitable? No. It just didn't exist because no one built one, and built one correctly, yet. It's the same with MMOs.
Edit - granted, the presence of a DM (one per every 3-8 or so players) means that when an issue comes up in a game of D&D, someone can make a quick and definitive ruling to resolve the issue, and play can continue. But no one is expecting a D&D MMO where players are allowed to create their own spells that can do ANYTHING, or where a player is allowed to attempt anything he can think of, as he would be in a D&D game. There is a LOT of wiggle room between the current MMO trend and that... and all I want is something that is at least a few steps closer to a D&D game than it is a game of checkers.
PnP D&D is a small group oriented dungeon crawling game. That is exactly what they created with D&D Online. If you don't like the premise of PnP D&D then you're probably not going to like the online game either.
But a true modern MMOG based on D&D does seem like a no-brainer. They don't need to adhere strictly to the d20 system. The d20 system is designed for humans to be able to do conveniently on paper with dice in a reasonable amount of time. Its not like you can use a d1000 on your tabletop game, but you can on a computer!
A D&D MMORPG could use a similar, but more involved system. It might create some nerd-rage in the very small population of PnP D&D fans, but the rest of us would probably not care or even know what rule set they are using in the server die rolls and calculations.
That's not necessarily a given, either. I've been playing pencil & paper D&D since 1989/1990. I hated how Turbine put together DDO. That and I don't agree that D&D is a "dungeon crawling game" only. If that's the limits of the mind/imagination of your DM, then sure. It is what you make of it, which is what makes it a great thing. Rarely did/does our group ever stay in one town for more than a few adventures. Additionally, I don't think many, if any, of our adventures are "dungeon crawls", running through a dungeon hacking and slashing anything that moves. Our DMs, which I'm one of a rotation of 3, always endeavor to make players use their grey matter as much or more than their brawn. I know it's commonplace to ignore non-weapon proficiencies or the larger parts of skills in 3.x editions by many of the players/DMs out there, but we try to take full advantage of all aspects of the game world.
Which is what they tried to do with first gen MMOs and have totally forgotten about in subsequent "gens".
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
All hidden to the user. The issue is not whether computers can handle the d20 system, it's that when presented to the user it's complicated and takes into account many variables that EQ-style combat doesn't. Modern MMOs present a very simple formula: higher level + more hp + more dps = win. If you're going to hide all the d20 mechanics in the background anyway then there's no point in using the D&D license.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
World of Darkness is coming, isn't that close enough?
And damn it, you say "ooh, FR and Dragonlance would just be another same-old same-old fanasty MMO," but then go on to say that you want to get together a group and go kill Strahd, as if that isn't exactly the same thing you do in every other MMO, except that the place you go has different art and the guy you kill has a different name.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I am probably one of the most staunch defenders and promoters of D&D as a hobby, and I did not see the movie. Seriously, I knew it was going to blow- but when they put a Wayans brother in there, it was the nail in the coffin.
And DDO is a decent game, to be sure, but it's a far cry from what D&D is really about: immersing yourself in a rich fantasy world where the possibilities are practically limitless (i.e. a sandbox). D&D may have invented the prototypical dungeon crawl, but it's so much more than that. People play D&D because it offers them freedom. I've had more fun playing pen-and-paper games than any other medium of gaming simply because there are no restrictions; your imagination is the limit. It's just incredibly difficult to find and get a solid group going.
the official MMORPG.com deadhead
Personally???
EVERY MMO GAME OUT THERE HAS BEEN AN ATTEMPT AT WHAT YOU ARE ASKING FOR.
Most just do not carry the D&D name.
Personally I cannot see why there has not been an attempt at Travellar or Space Opera.
Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.
... and a suitcase full of rule books.
D&D is not balanced. But not because it's bad designed. It is not balanced, because it is not neccessary. On the WotC-forums are tons of builds doing wtf-damage, tanking like hell and other munchkin stuff. during a regular P&P session a DM can control the combination of feats/spells and can intervene if a player abuses the rules. If you powergame around in a normal D&D-session, you might be hit by a lightning of total dm-Evilness and die. But in a MMO? You can adopt the settings as they stand, but not the complete rulesets.
Ever play Bioware's games?
What Bioware games are you referring to, exactly? Those WoW-style games Bioware made that don't exist or the ones they made with simplistic game mechanics that don't exist?
People who do play D&D play because they have control on how the campaign goes and how detailed it is, they can control every aspect of difficulty and force players to follow the path etc. That isn't possible in an MMO, there can't be dungeon masters and people aren't going to play specifically how you want. DDO did a good job at making a D&D game and it is as true as an MMO can be to the pen and paper game.
Also I don't think the D&D base is as large as you think, nor would it result in millions of players. Most of those who don't play D&D put a stigma on it and wouldn't play a game simply because it had the name D&D.