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I cant wrap my mind around the fact there isnt a true D&D MMORPG

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by spikers14


    Alright, well there seems to be a lot more talk about what you CANT do in an MMO as opposed to what COULD be done to a D&D title. Here is my short list, some of which directly correlate to several responses in this thread. Feel free to add to this list if you can imagine the feature being possible OR neccesary to a D&D adventure online:
     
    1) Random dungeon/area generators AND/OR DM dungeon/area building sets. Yes, I can believe you could do this online, right through a handy interface...even do mob placement, traps, and boss skill/type selecting. A DM toolset essentially.
    2) Assignable and/or GM run DM positions. These could be assigned by guilds, groups, the developers, or any of them in combination.
    3) Persistant LARGE world with instanced dungeon outlets (see above). Choose a random adventure, a pre-made DM adventure, or GM run adventure...choices are good.
    4) Good, accurate story arc, with the ability to write your own guild or group's story (to a certain extent). Writing your own story can come in the form of custom adventure's as well.

     

    1) Neverwinter Nights can do this. It is a MP RPG, NO MMO though.

    2) Too expensive if you use in-house staff, and uncontrollable if you use volunteers. I highly doubt any company will do this. If you want players-DMed games, go to Neverwinter Nights.

    3)  Random adventure = fail. You never get rid of the random feel. Scripted, professionally designed ones are better. You never get those multiple-phases fights in WOW if you go random. So the only choice is really pre-made ones. I would love to get an adventure with a GM but can you imagine having ONE GM service only a few players at a time? That is just NOT cost effective unless you charge for the service.

    4) Very few players will want to do any writing. So that is moot.

     

  • spikers14spikers14 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by spikers14


    Alright, well there seems to be a lot more talk about what you CANT do in an MMO as opposed to what COULD be done to a D&D title. Here is my short list, some of which directly correlate to several responses in this thread. Feel free to add to this list if you can imagine the feature being possible OR neccesary to a D&D adventure online:
     
    1) Random dungeon/area generators AND/OR DM dungeon/area building sets. Yes, I can believe you could do this online, right through a handy interface...even do mob placement, traps, and boss skill/type selecting. A DM toolset essentially.
    2) Assignable and/or GM run DM positions. These could be assigned by guilds, groups, the developers, or any of them in combination.
    3) Persistant LARGE world with instanced dungeon outlets (see above). Choose a random adventure, a pre-made DM adventure, or GM run adventure...choices are good.
    4) Good, accurate story arc, with the ability to write your own guild or group's story (to a certain extent). Writing your own story can come in the form of custom adventure's as well.

     

    1) Neverwinter Nights can do this. It is a MP RPG, NO MMO though.

    2) Too expensive if you use in-house staff, and uncontrollable if you use volunteers. I highly doubt any company will do this. If you want players-DMed games, go to Neverwinter Nights.

    3)  Random adventure = fail. You never get rid of the random feel. Scripted, professionally designed ones are better. You never get those multiple-phases fights in WOW if you go random. So the only choice is really pre-made ones. I would love to get an adventure with a GM but can you imagine having ONE GM service only a few players at a time? That is just NOT cost effective unless you charge for the service.

    4) Very few players will want to do any writing. So that is moot.

     



     

    I don't think my ideas were that bad, but thank you for the feedback I guess? I would love to DM, and I also know more that would as well. I'd Dm for you too, and smash your head with a boulder from a Giant Golem...:0

    Add: I also meant random as an OPTION to hand designed/placed, if you were a DM wanting to design an area for your particular tastes. For use as a quicker method when you have less time. The fact that dungeons were made by people, guilds, and GM's would make them random enough in most cases.

     

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

     
    Between Neverwinter Nights, City of Heroes/Villains, and Diablo 2, most of spikers14's ideas have been done - in very successful games too!  Though I'm not sure how well player DMing actually worked in NWN, as I barely touched any of it.

    Paid GMs wouldn't work for mainstream MMOs, but I could see it possibly working with a narrow niche audience willing to pay premium fees.  Basically I hear coworkers who played games similar to Island of Kesmai (1982) with its 6-12$ an hour online fee (back in 1982!) and think that maybe there's a large enough niche market willing to pay such fees for a truly hand-crafted experience.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • spikers14spikers14 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    Originally posted by Axehilt


     

    Between Neverwinter Nights, City of Heroes/Villains, and Diablo 2, most of spikers14's ideas have been done - in very successful games too!  Though I'm not sure how well player DMing actually worked in NWN, as I barely touched any of it.
    Paid GMs wouldn't work for mainstream MMOs, but I could see it possibly working with a narrow niche audience willing to pay premium fees.  Basically I hear coworkers who played games similar to Island of Kesmai (1982) with its 6-12$ an hour online fee (back in 1982!) and think that maybe there's a large enough niche market willing to pay such fees for a truly hand-crafted experience.



     

    Yes most of them have been done, but not in an MMO, without ever having to leave the very same client :)

    Its not that the idea is new, but the implementation def would be. So...NWN1 style mmo? I dont know. I never found that dungeon editor easy, and coordinating and sharing dungeons never really had all that special and/or easy of a mechanic all in itself. You could even choose to leave your dungeon open and let others pass through what youve created (in real time without mods).

    I guess there are too few who love adventure in this fashion anymore, well whatever. Static dungeons FTL if you ask me. Sooo boring.

  • brostynbrostyn Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 3,092
    Originally posted by madeux


    D&D's player base is actually pretty small.  Look at how the movie did?  An MMORPG could not make it on the name alone.
     
     

     

    Umm, no. You ever hear of these little games called gold box series starting with Pools of Radiance on the C64(best games ever made) also the gold box series of Gateway to the Savage Frontiers, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 plus expansions, on PC and PS2, Demon Stone on PS2, NWN 1 and 2 with loads of expansions, Temple of Elemental Evil, Icewind Dale 1 and 2, Eye of the Beholder 1, 2, 3 Pool of Radiance(the 2nd game with that title), and of course DDO. That's 22 games just off the top of my head.

     

    Not many IP can say they've been influencing video games for 21 years, and are still going strong. Name me another IP with more games. Warhammer has 18, and has been going on since 1991. IMO, those Warhammer games are much lower quality, and critics agree. DOW and DOW2 are the only ones I've liked, and those are RTS.

     

    BTW, I would gladly pay 30 dollars a month for a truly epic game. Regular updates, GM events, a truly changing, evolving world.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    It's not that few love this style of gaming.  Tabletop D&D is clearly still popular if they've made enough money to make all those 4th edition books.

    It's that in tabletop RPGing there are no limits:

    • Want to fight in an ice fortress? Describe it in 10 seconds and it exists in your players' minds.
    • Players veering off the intended path?  You can PlotDevice them back on course, move the location of the ImportantEncounter to where they're heading, or have them experience entirely different adventures elsewhere.

    In tabletop, content can be generated or changed on the fly without too much effort.  But in a videogame, it can't (hence your difficulty with the NWN editor.)  You're only going to be able to craft that ice fortress if icy looking castle walls actually exist.  Players veering off course is a little easier to correct, but it means making your session more linear (or creating an entire open world's worth of content, and then you've just created a normal MMO :P )

    And from my experience, content in tabletop sessions tends to revolve a little more around social interactions, which games aren't great at doing without a lot of work.

    Tabletop also has the advantage of catering to a specific set of PCs, whereas MMOs have to account for players existing in the same space (although full instancing solves this problem, most players seem to prefer the majority of content be in the open world; don't ask me why, as personally I prefer the higher quality experiences that can only be crafted via instancing.)

     

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • spikers14spikers14 Member UncommonPosts: 531

    I hear you talking Axe and I cant help but thinking Im saying most of the same things..in my head.

    I guess the problem is, I can envision how alot of it could work, and Im apparently doing a lousy job at explaining it.:p I still think its possible to have a MUCH closer, fresh adventuring experience. AND its possible to code this to make it so people can interact in games on new levels (such as creating their very own instanced content). Hell like you said, its been in NWN, why not in an MMO. Hell, you can even do it in RPGMaker. Now just make the process look better, function easier,  and open it up so we all can play it.

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912

    Thats sure an interesting question. Let me say it "from the outside" if I may. I am a Pen & Paper RPG player for 25 years, but I play the system "The Dark Eye", which is the most popular here in Germany. I have studied the D&D ruleset and game some years ago, being curious about a possible 2nd PnP game, but ultimately I was driven away. Now I enjoy the Faerun setting a lot, and the general concept of the classes and races. Baldurs Gate for instance was a real pearl.

    However, I always saw D&D way too much as a mere dungeon crawler, a heavily combat oriented game, than for instance The Dark Eye. In a typical Dark Eye evening our group has maybe between 2-5 combats at all, and thats a whole 8+ hours evening, because essentially it is based on social things and adventure rather. Now as I said, D&D is basically "dungeon crawling". The classes and the world is designed around this. Now you may say, isnt that perfect for a MMO? Honestly, no, it isnt. (The Dark Eye would not be either, for other reasons.) But the truth is, a MMO is a way more short term thing. Do quest X and come back a short time later. Sure, you have your long dungeon runs too, but ultimately the experience of a MMO is way different than a D&D session. You hack yourself through a long "tube" of mobs from point A to Z. See DDO. That IS essentially the most realistic conversion of D&D into a MMO, because the P&P combat of D&D just IS by and large a lot of hack and slay.

    Now granted, Faerun is maybe more interesting, and maybe also they could and should have made a kind of conversion of D&D into a MMO. Why not. But generally MMos and P&P games are something very different. If they adapt it to MMO kind of combat system, I guess they would alienate many P&P gamers. My knowledge of the PnP D&D is kinda limited, but all the central MMO mechanics, aggro holding, tank-DPS-healer triad asf are in that form all not existend in D&D or most Pen and Paper games, where it is much more about placement and the careful calculation of actions into turns. And besides, the "Game Master" allows a sort of ongoing tailoring towards the group, which isnt really possible in an altogether  stagnate MMO game world.

     

    Short version: Pen and Paper games and MMOs are not easy to convert into each other. But  understand, I would like to see my fav. PnP world Aventuria of the Dark Eye as a MMO too, heh. Tho I am damn sure most Dark Eye purists shudder at the very idea. ;)

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Member UncommonPosts: 3,133
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by qweniden


    I mean, it should have been a no-brainer right?  Forgotten Realms is a huge and rich IP with lots of established game mechanics.  
    DDO was one thing but I dont really see that as a real MMORPG.
    A D&D MMORPG would have a huge interested base of players.

     

    1) D&D is designed for small groups. You don't need a MMO to do so.

    2) D&D is not as popular as you may think. There are a LOT more people playing WOW, or even LOTRO, than D&D at any time.

    Pen & paper mechanics may not translate to MMOs well. For example, the issue of balanced pve/pvp is non-existence.

    I'm not going to talk about WoW, but respect to LOTRO, if you think their aren't a million people playing some form of D&D (from first edition to 4.0) on this planet, you very, very obviously have no idea about D&D as a hobby. Zero. D&D is more popular than you think. You just, as illustrated by your statement, don't spend much time looking at the hobby on the whole.

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Chavez y Chavez

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  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495
    Originally posted by blueturtle13


    Agreed. D&D is huge in my area. We have multiple gaming sessions going through the week and three all night campaigns going on Sat. There is a huge market for it to this day. Some of us have been playing for 20+ years like myself others are younger and new to the experience and are loving it. Taking younger players through classic campaigns is a joy that allows me to remember Duchy of Ten, Isle of Dread, Tomb of Horrors and my fav White Plume Mountain. (Though I didnt enjoy the sequal very much at all and I still never got the trident in White plume after all these years >_> )  A true D&D mmo will probably never happen but man it would be a big big hit if it was good. Bigger than WOW I would guess. At least in the west.

     

    The Tomb of Horrors, I remember that one. I am jealous. Probably some D&D going on in my area but I'm not aware of it. I was looking forward to the tools for online D&D games that were supposed to release with 4th edition, but they just gave up on them.

    image

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  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Member UncommonPosts: 3,133
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by blueturtle13


    Agreed. D&D is huge in my area. We have multiple gaming sessions going through the week and three all night campaigns going on Sat. There is a huge market for it to this day. Some of us have been playing for 20+ years like myself others are younger and new to the experience and are loving it. Taking younger players through classic campaigns is a joy that allows me to remember Duchy of Ten, Isle of Dread, Tomb of Horrors and my fav White Plume Mountain. (Though I didnt enjoy the sequal very much at all and I still never got the trident in White plume after all these years >_> )  A true D&D mmo will probably never happen but man it would be a big big hit if it was good. Bigger than WOW I would guess. At least in the west.

     

    The Tomb of Horrors, I remember that one. I am jealous. Probably some D&D going on in my area but I'm not aware of it. I was looking forward to the tools for online D&D games that were supposed to release with 4th edition, but they just gave up on them.

    If all else fails, get some of your old buddies living far away to try

    Fantasy Grounds

    . Get that and a ventrilo server and you're "roleing" and "rolling".

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Chavez y Chavez

  • VengerVenger Member UncommonPosts: 1,309

    A true D&D game could be a great thing.  Turbine tried to make a typical mmo with DDO which is why it didn't go over well with D&D fans.  They left out some of the best parts of pnp D&D which includes crafting and exploring.  I have created many characters which were master craftsmen.  D&D is much more then just hacking and slashing.  

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Venger


    A true D&D game could be a great thing.  Turbine tried to make a typical mmo with DDO which is why it didn't go over well with D&D fans.  They left out some of the best parts of pnp D&D which includes crafting and exploring.  I have created many characters which were master craftsmen.  D&D is much more then just hacking and slashing.  

    Yet more evidence backing my earlier statement that a "true" D&D game would impossibly have to be all things to all people, and was therefore an extremely difficult thing to pull off - I never once crafted anything in D&D, and we typically had pretty linear adventures.

    Also amusing to hear blueturtle13 say his favorite campaign was White Plume Mountain; sounded familiar so I looked it up - used to sit next to the author of White Plume Mountain at my last job.  Great guy (:

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Axehilt


     

    Between Neverwinter Nights, City of Heroes/Villains, and Diablo 2, most of spikers14's ideas have been done - in very successful games too!  Though I'm not sure how well player DMing actually worked in NWN, as I barely touched any of it.
    Paid GMs wouldn't work for mainstream MMOs, but I could see it possibly working with a narrow niche audience willing to pay premium fees.  Basically I hear coworkers who played games similar to Island of Kesmai (1982) with its 6-12$ an hour online fee (back in 1982!) and think that maybe there's a large enough niche market willing to pay such fees for a truly hand-crafted experience.

     

    Yeah .. it is really about the economics of it. Think of it this way. If one DM is going to serve ONE group of 5 players. Those 5 players have to be willing to pay for the GM's time. If the GM makes $40 an hour (which is quite low), the players woudl need to pay $8 per hour.

    Certainly doable although not for everyone.

  • VengerVenger Member UncommonPosts: 1,309
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by Venger


    A true D&D game could be a great thing.  Turbine tried to make a typical mmo with DDO which is why it didn't go over well with D&D fans.  They left out some of the best parts of pnp D&D which includes crafting and exploring.  I have created many characters which were master craftsmen.  D&D is much more then just hacking and slashing.  

    Yet more evidence backing my earlier statement that a "true" D&D game would impossibly have to be all things to all people, and was therefore an extremely difficult thing to pull off - I never once crafted anything in D&D, and we typically had pretty linear adventures.

    Also amusing to hear blueturtle13 say his favorite campaign was White Plume Mountain; sounded familiar so I looked it up - used to sit next to the author of White Plume Mountain at my last job.  Great guy (:

     

    Pnp D&D was as little and linear or as grand and open as the DM would allow it.  A true D&D game is not impossible or really that over difficult.  All the individual components already exist that just need to be brought together in a single game.

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  • leshtricityleshtricity Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 231

    Dudes, I haven't been in a group for a long time now. I moved and got stuck in rural america. It sucks. Even at the college here there ain't nobody that plays.

    the official MMORPG.com deadhead

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