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Massive PvE Raids = Dead?
GrandoReaper
Member UncommonPosts: 147
Remember back in EQ1 where you had 75 man raids? I mean when somebody said we was going to a raid it felt like a massive raid. When WoW came out and we had 40 man raids I was kind of cautious if I should continue the game or not because I was so used to 75 man raids (three raid targets a day 5 days a week 2pm to 11pm) but I figured hey its worth a try. It didnt feel too bad but I still felt like something was missing. Now in 2009 when I am playing WoW we go to a raid I feel like we are in a bastardized version of what a raid should be like I mean cmon you have 25 man and even 10 man raids; this isnt a raid. The difference between a 25 man raid and a 10 man raid still feels like a couple of groups thrown into a locked closet and told to farm purps no real difficulty just more or less an idiot filter determines if you kill the mob or not.
Is there any MMO's out now that are active (not talking 11 million active, more like 250k active) that has a decent PvE raiding aspect on a massive scale?
If you can answer this please list them in order of how massive the raiding groups and encounters are. Also can the games you list have raids that can be supported by its current server population?
Comments
Why would you want to sit around and try and gather that many people for a raid? And can you imagine WoW's loot system in a 75 man raid? Obviously the loot would be in larger quantities, but still... I wouldnt want to roll against half the raid for a piece of loot.
As for what games have raids.. I only know of WoW.
I think you have a point in your post. The days of truly large numbers of players organizing together for a raid are a dying mechanic.
Everquest was so new to the market , that there was little else available to compete with it. Now with so many MMOs out there. The Hardcore are left with nostalgia and rest of the gamers are wanting their purples now.
I think if you truly enjoy those massive events, I doubt any future developer will cater to massive PVE. Massive PvP is still on the table, because it is easier to sustain over the long term. Keep subscribing to Everquest.
In the 75 man raids I went on for EQ1, we probably had 1/4th as much loot per raid as a 25 man naxx raid.
The reason you don't see these "Massive" raids is because they have become outdated. You can't make a well scripted and executed raid encounter that can handle that many people. For that reason boss fights back in early WoW and EQ were pretty simple. Today the raids have been toned down to help develope new more dynamics encounters. Also no there aren't any mmo's that have those kind of pve raids that you want. You would either have to go back to EQ or play on a WoW private server.
I also think its dying and frankly rather happy about that. Everquest was my first big MMORPG and I never liked raiding then, WoW just sealed the deal.
For one its to frustrating to get so many people on at the same time and on time. Also they tend to be to time consuming. If you ask me WARhammer has the right idea - 6 man runs are really fun! You get on for a few hours run through and get back to PvPing. The sad thing is all the really good dungeons can only be done at max level.
I also think as people stated above you will see less and less "huge raid party" dungeons and boss battles in future MMORPGs.
If you are willing to put in that much time, you could go play lineage 2.. I heard valakas took around 400 people to kill him, and there are dozens of raid bosses in L2. But be careful, i lost my life to that game for a few years.
The smaller and smaller raids are becoming more popular because of logistics. Frm what I see, large massive encounters are being geard towards more PUG capability. Example, city raids on WAR, anyone and their brother can show up and fight.
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
I tried L2 off and on sense it came out and it just never really appealed to me because of the massive amounts of bots and the feeling of the world being empty. Nearly the whole map is just one huge flat grassland with various shrubs scattered about.
When my dad played football in high school, his pads were much less effective protection than mine were, plus they only got 1 water break per practice.
I would say Lineage 2
The largest raids being such that you need quite a few people. I can't answer to how many but at one point, for the large raids, you needed (practically) an alliance.
Valakas:
go to a minute 19 seconds in this:
Antharas:
About 2:45 into it
Frintezza
about 1:27 in and it seems to be a NC promo but it's all in game play
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Those large raids are now only to be found in games like Darkfall and the upcoming Mortal Online. You'll still get your big groups, and even larger, but you'll have the benefit of a dynamic enemy.
Big raids were good stunt you can pull off once before the novelty wears off.
Smaller group (but still large enough to not cripple encounter design) content where everyone matters is much more hardcore. Big raids are nice for PUGing where having 70 or 80, skilled or not, AFK or not hardly matters.
WoW had it the other way around and it is highest time it finally dies as the EQ veterans on team grow up. Now if they actually cared to bite the bullet and bring dumbed down raids for PUGs.
Yes, I miss raids. But not for the hardcore elitism. I miss them for the fun and giggles we had where half of people died and the other half was too busy telling jokes to care. I miss them as something easy to do together because doing stuff together is fun.
I always refused to do the 40 man raids in WoW. I don't take orders well, there's no adventure to them, you're just expected to give up hours of your life several days a week, to do exactly what you're told and not think.
Now, when we'd get together to raid enemy territory, that's where the fun came in for me, that's where I had the fun and giggles where we all eventually died, and no one cared.
I tried L2 off and on sense it came out and it just never really appealed to me because of the massive amounts of bots and the feeling of the world being empty. Nearly the whole map is just one huge flat grassland with various shrubs scattered about.
Well, so much for my post ; )
However, that isn't exactly true. The world is so large that they had to pull mobs that were just "around" so that they could create the Necropolis's for the 7 signs events.
There are definitley places where one can go to just kill mobs.
Most notable Ruins of Despair, Ruins of Agony, Cruma Tower, Cemetary, Tower of Insolence, Forsaken Plains, Giants Cave, The Wastes, Ivory Tower Pit, Sea of Spores, Varkas Silenos, Isle of Prayer, School of Dark Arts, Elven Fortess, Enchanted Valley, etc.
So you start as a dark elf, kill mobs outside of the temple you spawn in.
You then move to the swamp. From there school of dark arts. You then get to 20 (though truth be told if you just do the quests in the starter area you will level to 20 extremely quickly as they made some changes there) and go to the areas around gludin or just the wastes or Ruins of Despair or Agony.
Upper 20's cruma. Then the 30's Sea of spors I thing, etc...
There are other places that I can picture in my head but the names elude me. But there is a progression of areas and even groups of areas to level in.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Good luck finding a modern game with that kind of raiding mechanic. EverQuest lost millions of subscribers during the height of popularity precisely because of this kind of game play.
That's why they came out with EverQuest 2, to try and grab those 2 million plus who abandoned EverQuest due to it's hardcore focus and bias. Gaming companies just aren't going to go back to 75 man raids, it doesn't pay and it alienates a huge percentage of the gaming population. Hell, 40 man raids in World of Warcraft alienated a lot of players so they ditched it quickly.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I tried L2 off and on sense it came out and it just never really appealed to me because of the massive amounts of bots and the feeling of the world being empty. Nearly the whole map is just one huge flat grassland with various shrubs scattered about.
Well, so much for my post ; )
However, that isn't exactly true. The world is so large that they had to pull mobs that were just "around" so that they could create the Necropolis's for the 7 signs events.
There are definitley places where one can go to just kill mobs.
Most notable Ruins of Despair, Ruins of Agony, Cruma Tower, Cemetary, Tower of Insolence, Forsaken Plains, Giants Cave, The Wastes, Ivory Tower Pit, Sea of Spores, Varkas Silenos, Isle of Prayer, School of Dark Arts, Elven Fortess, Enchanted Valley, etc.
I can look past the bad economy in L2, but my question for you is: Does L2 right now have the population on official servers to support such large raids?
I tried L2 off and on sense it came out and it just never really appealed to me because of the massive amounts of bots and the feeling of the world being empty. Nearly the whole map is just one huge flat grassland with various shrubs scattered about.
Well, so much for my post ; )
However, that isn't exactly true. The world is so large that they had to pull mobs that were just "around" so that they could create the Necropolis's for the 7 signs events.
There are definitley places where one can go to just kill mobs.
Most notable Ruins of Despair, Ruins of Agony, Cruma Tower, Cemetary, Tower of Insolence, Forsaken Plains, Giants Cave, The Wastes, Ivory Tower Pit, Sea of Spores, Varkas Silenos, Isle of Prayer, School of Dark Arts, Elven Fortess, Enchanted Valley, etc.
I can look past the bad economy in L2, but my question for you is: Does L2 right now have the population on official servers to support such large raids?
lol most certainly. I will add one caveat though, you would have to be in the larger alliances as only they really can pull those raids off (edit: or an alliance that is close with a few other alliances that do these raids). I would also add that if you are Euro then go to Teon and U.S. then Bartz or Phoenix.
But you have to change your paradigm and understand that the game is a clan/alliance based game and it can be rather cut throat. You an also get into good groups of people, don't get me wrong. But it's open pvp as you might know so being in a good clan would help.
But yes, the larger alliances can do these raids as they have a lot of people Which of course is what you want.
I'll add this.
You do the noob quests, all of htem in whatever starter area you choose. Didn't use to be the case but now it is. You then learn about who's who and find out which allinaces do them. It will be a few of the top players. Luckily there is a system where clans get points for lower level playres to join and get to 40.
There's quite a lot but the game does not hold your hand so you have to be proactive and do your research.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
NOT THE SAME THING.
Come on now....
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
NOT THE SAME THING.
Come on now....
All you need to do is look at the title to know that it's not what the OP was talking about.
those raids also had you sitting around for half the day awhile you waited for people or planned things out
NOT THE SAME THING.
Come on now....
All you need to do is look at the title to know that it's not what the OP was talking about.
Ok, let me be a little more explicit.
Yes, the raids you are looking for are dead (just as they should be).
The closest thing you will find will be PvP raids found in games like Darkfall and the upcoming Mortal Online (which will be a major improvement, adding excitement and variety instead of the same mob with the same poor AI every time).
Better?
Sure.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
That's odd because I feel alot more alienated, pushed aside, don't count with all the 10-25 man dungeons than I ever did in EQ or Molten Core raids. I understand why raid leaders ask for stats and armory links before you join a raid nowadays, but It's just my opinion that making encounters hard just for the sake of being hard, was a really dumb move. I mean, I'm sure the elitist jerks enjoy it, because for them, challenge means beating tough content at all costs. The big raids were more fun and alot more relaxing for me though. I didn't have to read ten pages of WoWhead so that I wouldn't get kicked out of a raid and blacklisted. That's never actually happened to me, but it does happen alot, and it has pretty much convinced me that it's not even worth it to try. I've never been to any raids past BWL for this reason alone.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Well said, I agree. If I had wanted to be a small disposable keg in a huge, impersonal mass of zombified people, then I would have joined the army.
I also remember the big raids from back in the blooming days of Anarchy Online where there would be 50-60 people. That game still has mass raids on a PVP dungeon boss which sometimes leads to 40vs40 encounters but I agree with you and I miss the aspect of games nowadays of misdefining the name "raid". But it is what it is and we leave it to the dev's to decide how raids will progress in the MMO industry. I do hope Mortal Online brings back some of that umph feeling to it though.
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