And there are a lot more people not raiding in WoW now precisely because they have downsized the raids.
I doubt that "plenty" is correct. The amount of hardcore people who enjoy/miss the mssaive raids is pretty small comoared to the millions that enjoy the 10/25 variety. No contest really. I bet less than 20,000 people ever did an epic EQ raid.
I would disagree about how many people raided in EQ but it's hard to argue made up numbers.
And there are a lot more people not raiding in WoW now precisely because they have downsized the raids.
I doubt that "plenty" is correct. The amount of hardcore people who enjoy/miss the mssaive raids is pretty small comoared to the millions that enjoy the 10/25 variety. No contest really. I bet less than 20,000 people ever did an epic EQ raid.
I would disagree about how many people raided in EQ but it's hard to argue made up numbers.
Ive read a number of places about 25% of EQ players ever reached max level. What percentage of players that reached max level do you think were hard core raiders? How many ever went on a raid at all?
Aion has raids and 3.5 mill plus are enjoying the raiding content it seems. I think it depends on how long raids take and do I get rewarded enough for my effort are factors. You see in WOW once you reach max level all you do is either raid or pvp and both get boring pretty fast.
Aion has raids and 3.5 mill plus are enjoying the raiding content it seems. I think it depends on how long raids take and do I get rewarded enough for my effort are factors. You see in WOW once you reach max level all you do is either raid or pvp and both get boring pretty fast.
Woah woah woah the flavor of the month is Darkfall not Aion.
Serious note: I'd play Aion if I had 1.) a crazy expensive computer and 2.) the ability to kill bot's in-game with my laser eyes.
Aion has raids and 3.5 mill plus are enjoying the raiding content it seems. I think it depends on how long raids take and do I get rewarded enough for my effort are factors. You see in WOW once you reach max level all you do is either raid or pvp and both get boring pretty fast.
Woah woah woah the flavor of the month is Darkfall not Aion.
Serious note: I'd play Aion if I had 1.) a crazy expensive computer and 2.) the ability to kill bot's in-game with my laser eyes.
Sorry I wouldn't play Darkfall even if I was given the game for free and a free lifetime subscription. Aion was more of an example really.
Originally posted by qweniden Ive read a number of places about 25% of EQ players ever reached max level. What percentage of players that reached max level do you think were hard core raiders? How many ever went on a raid at all?
Since EQ is a 10 year old game that has raised it's level cap from 50-85 I could see how only 25% of the players ever reached max level. That has nothing to do with the number of players who participated in raids.
Honestly I have no idea how many players were hard core raiders or what percentage raided, only SOE can provide those numbers. I do want to point out though, in EQ you didn't have to be max level to raid. We started raiding Naggy/Vox at 35, and the planes opened up at 46 so even people who never made it to max level raided daily. Certain raids were level restricted which kept players from lvling past 51 for up to a year or more. Yay Paladin Epics! So you really can't compare the number of people who reached max level to the number of people who participated in raids, they are completely different.
Originally posted by qweniden Ive read a number of places about 25% of EQ players ever reached max level. What percentage of players that reached max level do you think were hard core raiders? How many ever went on a raid at all?
Since EQ is a 10 year old game that has raised it's level cap from 50-85 I could see how only 25% of the players ever reached max level. That has nothing to do with the number of players who participated in raids.
Honestly I have no idea how many players were hard core raiders or what percentage raided, only SOE can provide those numbers. I do want to point out though, in EQ you didn't have to be max level to raid. We started raiding Naggy/Vox at 35, and the planes opened up at 46 so even people who never made it to max level raided daily. Certain raids were level restricted which kept players from lvling past 51 for up to a year or more. Yay Paladin Epics! So you really can't compare the number of people who reached max level to the number of people who participated in raids, they are completely different.
Without exception, everyone I know who was a hardcore raider was max level.
Chances of raids over 24 mans in upcoming mmos is very small in my opinon, and that's good. Even 24 mans can be a total pain in the ass trying to get everyone together and so forth.
Want a 75 man raid? Go play Joint Operations typhoon rising on a 150 players server. theres your 75 man raid, except its not an mmo because.. I dunno why they dont call these mmo's ive never seen a mmo that can handle 200 players in the same spot fighting like some fps's can.
But I hear ya, these mmo's arnet exactly massive when the standard fps shooter can put more people in the same area and make it playable than any mmo ive tried.
Why would you want to sit around and try and gather that many people for a raid? And can you imagine WoW's loot system in a 75 man raid? Obviously the loot would be in larger quantities, but still... I wouldnt want to roll against half the raid for a piece of loot. As for what games have raids.. I only know of WoW.
Are you fucking serious..... what games have raids. I only know of wow......
Sorry, edit your post if that was a mistake. But seriosly if you really bealive that.......... well fuck.
Anyway, raids are part of a game. But I do not bealive the most important part or even one I couldn't do entirely without.
And there are a lot more people not raiding in WoW now precisely because they have downsized the raids.
I doubt that "plenty" is correct. The amount of hardcore people who enjoy/miss the mssaive raids is pretty small comoared to the millions that enjoy the 10/25 variety. No contest really. I bet less than 20,000 people ever did an epic EQ raid.
Originally posted by Murashu
Why can't there be room for both? I have nothing against WoW's 1-2 group sized raids, if you like them thats great, but there is plenty of room for both.
It comes down to development costs. Companies have limited resources and time and they have to choose where to put it. Creating MMO content of any sort is expensive in time and money.
Really this whole thread will come down to some who enjoy large raids and some who don't. I know it takes money to develop these games but I think they could throw us 1 or 2 new dragon bosses similar to Onyxia that are 40 man in the mix. I am the person that enjoys EQ raids (When I played there wasn't really a raid interface so not sure how many would show up to kill the dragons), I enjoy WoW raids 40man, 25man, 10man as well.
Give the players at least a few big dragon boss encounters that take 40 people every expansion. Doesn't even have to have the best loot on it, just give it to us for the people who enjoy those. I would love that myself, I loved killing Onyxia.
Good luck finding a modern game with that kind of raiding mechanic. EverQuest lost millions of subscribers during the height of popularity precisely because of this kind of game play. That's why they came out with EverQuest 2, to try and grab those 2 million plus who abandoned EverQuest due to it's hardcore focus and bias. Gaming companies just aren't going to go back to 75 man raids, it doesn't pay and it alienates a huge percentage of the gaming population. Hell, 40 man raids in World of Warcraft alienated a lot of players so they ditched it quickly.
That's odd because I feel alot more alienated, pushed aside, don't count with all the 10-25 man dungeons than I ever did in EQ or Molten Core raids. I understand why raid leaders ask for stats and armory links before you join a raid nowadays, but It's just my opinion that making encounters hard just for the sake of being hard, was a really dumb move. I mean, I'm sure the elitist jerks enjoy it, because for them, challenge means beating tough content at all costs. The big raids were more fun and alot more relaxing for me though. I didn't have to read ten pages of WoWhead so that I wouldn't get kicked out of a raid and blacklisted. That's never actually happened to me, but it does happen alot, and it has pretty much convinced me that it's not even worth it to try. I've never been to any raids past BWL for this reason alone.
you can gear up enough to do those raids by doing 5-man and reputation grind/crafting. It has become a lot easier to get into raids these days.
Maybe that is the problem.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Second, there are a lot more people raiding in WOW now precisely because they have downsized the raids.
And there are a lot more people not raiding in WoW now precisely because they have downsized the raids.
Why can't there be room for both? I have nothing against WoW's 1-2 group sized raids, if you like them thats great, but there is plenty of room for both.
I would argue that Blizzard knows what they are doing and if they are downsizing raids ... that means smaller raids are MORE popular. Sure there are people who want bigger raids. However, if that population is too small, it does NOT make sense to cater precious resources to them.
And there are a lot more people not raiding in WoW now precisely because they have downsized the raids.
I doubt that "plenty" is correct. The amount of hardcore people who enjoy/miss the mssaive raids is pretty small comoared to the millions that enjoy the 10/25 variety. No contest really. I bet less than 20,000 people ever did an epic EQ raid.
I would disagree about how many people raided in EQ but it's hard to argue made up numbers.
Ive read a number of places about 25% of EQ players ever reached max level. What percentage of players that reached max level do you think were hard core raiders? How many ever went on a raid at all?
I saw some articles a while back (before WOTLK) that says only a small percentage (read single digit) of WOW players even raid. I would think that number has gone up since WOTLK.
I always like to see one or two world raid bosses in a game. They are there for the taking if so desired. I am all for more content even if people do not wish to partake in it.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I always refused to do the 40 man raids in WoW. I don't take orders well, there's no adventure to them, you're just expected to give up hours of your life several days a week, to do exactly what you're told and not think. Now, when we'd get together to raid enemy territory, that's where the fun came in for me, that's where I had the fun and giggles where we all eventually died, and no one cared.
This.
I have never participated in a raid and actually felt like I was really contributing. Give me no groups larger than 10, ever. Also, please never, ever give me a raid again where everyone follows a predetermined set of moves like a choreographer. God, that's dull in the extreme.
pve sucks step your game up and learn how to best the greatest players of your game
you should have to pvp to pve
fight over boss spawns
well i'm all for games that aren't 1 demensional
i dont like pve, so i shouldn't have too, the same way a pve'er shouldn't have to pvp (god only know why you dont wanna learn to play the game in a manner where you dominate an actual person instead of AI)
games need to work in a way that pvpers dont have to pve, and them winning or controling things opens up something for someone who pves
etc..etc.
you get the idea
pve is boring
it shouldn't be in any game
a real game would have you level up by hunting down and killing other human players
pve sucks step your game up and learn how to best the greatest players of your game
you should have to pvp to pve
fight over boss spawns
well i'm all for games that aren't 1 demensional
i dont like pve, so i shouldn't have too, the same way a pve'er shouldn't have to pvp (god only know why you dont wanna learn to play the game in a manner where you dominate an actual person instead of AI)
games need to work in a way that pvpers dont have to pve, and them winning or controling things opens up something for someone who pves
etc..etc.
you get the idea
pve is boring
it shouldn't be in any game
a real game would have you level up by hunting down and killing other human players
pve sucks step your game up and learn how to best the greatest players of your game
you should have to pvp to pve
fight over boss spawns
I couldn't agree more! I'm just wondering if the day will come when a PvE game can compete with those elite PvP games that dominate the mmo market. hehe
Comments
I doubt that "plenty" is correct. The amount of hardcore people who enjoy/miss the mssaive raids is pretty small comoared to the millions that enjoy the 10/25 variety. No contest really. I bet less than 20,000 people ever did an epic EQ raid.
I would disagree about how many people raided in EQ but it's hard to argue made up numbers.
I doubt that "plenty" is correct. The amount of hardcore people who enjoy/miss the mssaive raids is pretty small comoared to the millions that enjoy the 10/25 variety. No contest really. I bet less than 20,000 people ever did an epic EQ raid.
I would disagree about how many people raided in EQ but it's hard to argue made up numbers.
Ive read a number of places about 25% of EQ players ever reached max level. What percentage of players that reached max level do you think were hard core raiders? How many ever went on a raid at all?
Aion has raids and 3.5 mill plus are enjoying the raiding content it seems. I think it depends on how long raids take and do I get rewarded enough for my effort are factors. You see in WOW once you reach max level all you do is either raid or pvp and both get boring pretty fast.
Woah woah woah the flavor of the month is Darkfall not Aion.
Serious note: I'd play Aion if I had 1.) a crazy expensive computer and 2.) the ability to kill bot's in-game with my laser eyes.
Woah woah woah the flavor of the month is Darkfall not Aion.
Serious note: I'd play Aion if I had 1.) a crazy expensive computer and 2.) the ability to kill bot's in-game with my laser eyes.
Sorry I wouldn't play Darkfall even if I was given the game for free and a free lifetime subscription. Aion was more of an example really.
Since EQ is a 10 year old game that has raised it's level cap from 50-85 I could see how only 25% of the players ever reached max level. That has nothing to do with the number of players who participated in raids.
Honestly I have no idea how many players were hard core raiders or what percentage raided, only SOE can provide those numbers. I do want to point out though, in EQ you didn't have to be max level to raid. We started raiding Naggy/Vox at 35, and the planes opened up at 46 so even people who never made it to max level raided daily. Certain raids were level restricted which kept players from lvling past 51 for up to a year or more. Yay Paladin Epics! So you really can't compare the number of people who reached max level to the number of people who participated in raids, they are completely different.
Since EQ is a 10 year old game that has raised it's level cap from 50-85 I could see how only 25% of the players ever reached max level. That has nothing to do with the number of players who participated in raids.
Honestly I have no idea how many players were hard core raiders or what percentage raided, only SOE can provide those numbers. I do want to point out though, in EQ you didn't have to be max level to raid. We started raiding Naggy/Vox at 35, and the planes opened up at 46 so even people who never made it to max level raided daily. Certain raids were level restricted which kept players from lvling past 51 for up to a year or more. Yay Paladin Epics! So you really can't compare the number of people who reached max level to the number of people who participated in raids, they are completely different.
Without exception, everyone I know who was a hardcore raider was max level.
Chances of raids over 24 mans in upcoming mmos is very small in my opinon, and that's good. Even 24 mans can be a total pain in the ass trying to get everyone together and so forth.
Was the discussion about hardcore raiders? I'm confused now.
Want a 75 man raid? Go play Joint Operations typhoon rising on a 150 players server. theres your 75 man raid, except its not an mmo because.. I dunno why they dont call these mmo's ive never seen a mmo that can handle 200 players in the same spot fighting like some fps's can.
But I hear ya, these mmo's arnet exactly massive when the standard fps shooter can put more people in the same area and make it playable than any mmo ive tried.
Are you fucking serious..... what games have raids. I only know of wow......
Sorry, edit your post if that was a mistake. But seriosly if you really bealive that.......... well fuck.
Anyway, raids are part of a game. But I do not bealive the most important part or even one I couldn't do entirely without.
If you are not playing a MMO that has 100+ man Raids and camping hours waiting on a boss spawn you are not playing a real MMO!
I doubt that "plenty" is correct. The amount of hardcore people who enjoy/miss the mssaive raids is pretty small comoared to the millions that enjoy the 10/25 variety. No contest really. I bet less than 20,000 people ever did an epic EQ raid.
It comes down to development costs. Companies have limited resources and time and they have to choose where to put it. Creating MMO content of any sort is expensive in time and money.
Really this whole thread will come down to some who enjoy large raids and some who don't. I know it takes money to develop these games but I think they could throw us 1 or 2 new dragon bosses similar to Onyxia that are 40 man in the mix. I am the person that enjoys EQ raids (When I played there wasn't really a raid interface so not sure how many would show up to kill the dragons), I enjoy WoW raids 40man, 25man, 10man as well.
Give the players at least a few big dragon boss encounters that take 40 people every expansion. Doesn't even have to have the best loot on it, just give it to us for the people who enjoy those. I would love that myself, I loved killing Onyxia.
That's odd because I feel alot more alienated, pushed aside, don't count with all the 10-25 man dungeons than I ever did in EQ or Molten Core raids. I understand why raid leaders ask for stats and armory links before you join a raid nowadays, but It's just my opinion that making encounters hard just for the sake of being hard, was a really dumb move. I mean, I'm sure the elitist jerks enjoy it, because for them, challenge means beating tough content at all costs. The big raids were more fun and alot more relaxing for me though. I didn't have to read ten pages of WoWhead so that I wouldn't get kicked out of a raid and blacklisted. That's never actually happened to me, but it does happen alot, and it has pretty much convinced me that it's not even worth it to try. I've never been to any raids past BWL for this reason alone.
you can gear up enough to do those raids by doing 5-man and reputation grind/crafting. It has become a lot easier to get into raids these days.
Maybe that is the problem.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
And there are a lot more people not raiding in WoW now precisely because they have downsized the raids.
Why can't there be room for both? I have nothing against WoW's 1-2 group sized raids, if you like them thats great, but there is plenty of room for both.
I would argue that Blizzard knows what they are doing and if they are downsizing raids ... that means smaller raids are MORE popular. Sure there are people who want bigger raids. However, if that population is too small, it does NOT make sense to cater precious resources to them.
I doubt that "plenty" is correct. The amount of hardcore people who enjoy/miss the mssaive raids is pretty small comoared to the millions that enjoy the 10/25 variety. No contest really. I bet less than 20,000 people ever did an epic EQ raid.
I would disagree about how many people raided in EQ but it's hard to argue made up numbers.
Ive read a number of places about 25% of EQ players ever reached max level. What percentage of players that reached max level do you think were hard core raiders? How many ever went on a raid at all?
I saw some articles a while back (before WOTLK) that says only a small percentage (read single digit) of WOW players even raid. I would think that number has gone up since WOTLK.
I always like to see one or two world raid bosses in a game. They are there for the taking if so desired. I am all for more content even if people do not wish to partake in it.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
This.
I have never participated in a raid and actually felt like I was really contributing. Give me no groups larger than 10, ever. Also, please never, ever give me a raid again where everyone follows a predetermined set of moves like a choreographer. God, that's dull in the extreme.
i liked the massive raids cause you could sit around and do nothing and still get loot
in wow you actually do something and you get jack shit half the time
You are a wise man.
Also remember if your just a number in a raid they cant tell who ****ed up.
You are a wise man.
Also remember if your just a number in a raid they cant tell who ****ed up.
i used to wipe raids for fun and they would have no clue who did it hahahaa
you should have to pvp to pve
fight over boss spawns
you should have to pvp to pve
fight over boss spawns
well i'm all for games that aren't 1 demensional
i dont like pve, so i shouldn't have too, the same way a pve'er shouldn't have to pvp (god only know why you dont wanna learn to play the game in a manner where you dominate an actual person instead of AI)
games need to work in a way that pvpers dont have to pve, and them winning or controling things opens up something for someone who pves
etc..etc.
you get the idea
pve is boring
it shouldn't be in any game
a real game would have you level up by hunting down and killing other human players
you should have to pvp to pve
fight over boss spawns
well i'm all for games that aren't 1 demensional
i dont like pve, so i shouldn't have too, the same way a pve'er shouldn't have to pvp (god only know why you dont wanna learn to play the game in a manner where you dominate an actual person instead of AI)
games need to work in a way that pvpers dont have to pve, and them winning or controling things opens up something for someone who pves
etc..etc.
you get the idea
pve is boring
it shouldn't be in any game
a real game would have you level up by hunting down and killing other human players
Look someone needs attention!
Here. Im giving you attention.
you should have to pvp to pve
fight over boss spawns
I couldn't agree more! I'm just wondering if the day will come when a PvE game can compete with those elite PvP games that dominate the mmo market. hehe
Z
http://www.TheIronZ.com