I know analogies can be hard to follow or flawed, but try this one. We are climbing a mountain. We meet at the top of the mountain. There is no way in the Universe to get to the top, except to do it one step at a time, all the way up. Now, we look at each other, and we know we have both taken every step up the mountain. Do I care, or do you, if one of us got there quicker? Do I care if you got there in a week, and it took me 6 months? No. I know, that either way, you went through every encounter I did to get there regardless of the time taken (think of this as content). So, in this case we don't measure by SPEED we measure by foot steps taken to reach the top. No matter how quickly I do it or how slowly you do it, or vice a versa, we know one thing, there's no way to avoid those footsteps, they have to be taken. This is want makes us equal, the amount of footsteps we have taken, NOT THE SPEED at which we take them. Now, imagine there is a helicopter that can give you a lift up the side of the mountain if you feel like taking a break from climbing now and then. We reach the top of the mountain. Did you take the same footsteps I did, or did you ride in the Helicopter? Did you ride part of the way, most of the way, only a little bit of the way? How can this be perceived as equal on any level? RMT lets you skip content. P2P means you MUST do the content, no matter how fast or slow. Thats' what we like about P2P instead of RMT, knowing everyone has to do the same content, no matter how fast or how slow. Need to kill 1,000 mobs to get to level 5? There is no shortcut, you MUST kill 1,000 mobs. I don't care if you do it in one sitting of 8 hours, or 30 minutes a day, either way IT"S STILL 1,000 MOBS! With RMT, take an XP potion. Maybe you killed 900 Mobs, maybe 500, maybe only 100. Who knows?
I like your analogy, it does have charm to journey together and accomplish the same goals. However i think it also has some flaws. For starters there are more ways than one to climb a mountain, as a matter of fact part of the challenge can be to do it in a manner noone has ever done it before or take a different route. That's what might keep things interesting instead of following the exact footsteps of your predecessor. You also assume people climb that mountain for the climbing alone, while others might simply go there because of the view or to use it as a starting point for their sky-diving and consider the climbing neccesary evil. Lastly, even without RMT, unless you travelled together you never know how someone else got there, 900 steps maybe 500 or 100, skill X, exploit Y, but does that really matter? Assuming You enjoyed the way you got there.
I don't consider buying items/stuff gained through RMT a goal, they're the mountaintop in order to enjoy a view, they're that starting point to do other enjoyable things with or from. A crafter might buy his resources from a miner, through ingame auction or through RMT all of which might be ingame features. I don't think any less of him for not going out to gather them by himself.
If you'll alow me an analogy of my own: Both me and my father immensely enjoy wintersports, we used to go almost every year. Back in his days there were no ski-lifts so he had to walk up all the way, he sometimes still enjoys that part too but luckily for me i can pay for my ride back up and meet him there to go back down together. There's no cheating, he enjoys it, i enjoy it how much more equal do you want it to get?
I know analogies can be hard to follow or flawed, but try this one. We are climbing a mountain. We meet at the top of the mountain. There is no way in the Universe to get to the top, except to do it one step at a time, all the way up. Now, we look at each other, and we know we have both taken every step up the mountain. Do I care, or do you, if one of us got there quicker? Do I care if you got there in a week, and it took me 6 months? No. I know, that either way, you went through every encounter I did to get there regardless of the time taken (think of this as content). So, in this case we don't measure by SPEED we measure by foot steps taken to reach the top. No matter how quickly I do it or how slowly you do it, or vice a versa, we know one thing, there's no way to avoid those footsteps, they have to be taken. This is want makes us equal, the amount of footsteps we have taken, NOT THE SPEED at which we take them. Now, imagine there is a helicopter that can give you a lift up the side of the mountain if you feel like taking a break from climbing now and then. We reach the top of the mountain. Did you take the same footsteps I did, or did you ride in the Helicopter? Did you ride part of the way, most of the way, only a little bit of the way? How can this be perceived as equal on any level? RMT lets you skip content. P2P means you MUST do the content, no matter how fast or slow. Thats' what we like about P2P instead of RMT, knowing everyone has to do the same content, no matter how fast or how slow. Need to kill 1,000 mobs to get to level 5? There is no shortcut, you MUST kill 1,000 mobs. I don't care if you do it in one sitting of 8 hours, or 30 minutes a day, either way IT"S STILL 1,000 MOBS! With RMT, take an XP potion. Maybe you killed 900 Mobs, maybe 500, maybe only 100. Who knows?
I like your analogy, it does have charm to journey together and accomplish the same goals. However i think it also has some flaws. For starters there are more ways than one to climb a mountain, as a matter of fact part of the challenge can be to do it in a manner noone has ever done it before or take a different route. That's what might keep things interesting instead of following the exact footsteps of your predecessor. You also assume people climb that mountain for the climbing alone, while others might simply go there because of the view or to use it as a starting point for their sky-diving and consider the climbing neccesary evil. Lastly, even without RMT, unless you travelled together you never know how someone else got there, 900 steps maybe 500 or 100, skill X, exploit Y, but does that really matter? Assuming You enjoyed the way you got there.
I don't consider buying items/stuff gained through RMT a goal, they're the mountaintop in order to enjoy a view, they're that starting point to do other enjoyable things with or from. A crafter might buy his resources from a miner, through ingame auction or through RMT all of which might be ingame features. I don't think any less of him for not going out to gather them by himself.
If you'll alow me an analogy of my own: Both me and my father immensely enjoy wintersports, we used to go almost every year. Back in his days there were no ski-lifts so he had to walk up all the way, he sometimes still enjoys that part too but luckily for me i can pay for my ride back up and meet him there to go back down together. There's no cheating, he enjoys it, i enjoy it how much more equal do you want it to get?
HAHAHA in the end you are buying AIR/nothing you are spending money to buy NOTHING.... virtual gods have no lasting value, Its like selling sand to the Arabs.
I CANT FOR THE WORLD UNDERSTAND that people are willing to buy Zeros and ones for REAL money.
If you pay a subsricption you pay to get a magazine or to have a service like an internet conection, game access etc. IF you are buying virtual goods you are Buying NOTHING..... IT aint worth shit.. HOW the hell can you all defend this business modle. Cant you see they are ripping you off HAHAHAHAH.....rolf
Originally posted by Magnum2103 There is good RMT, acceptable RMT, and terrible RMT.
That's an interesting view of the topic. Unfortunately, the fundamental idea behind RMT is that people care enough about some game change to pay money for it. If there are players who care, then there will be players who care and who don't have the money. They will feel at a disadvantage, feel slighted or feel that they aren't experiencing the whole game. If players didn't care one way or the other, then the game changes would likely never be paid for. It is the fact that players care enough to pay that makes RMT impractical for changes to a player's game experience.
The only situation that I can see additional payments working is when the payments are for services that are outside of the game experience itself. Moving a character between servers, ordering a physical model of your character with its equipment and so on.
The distinction between being 'in game' and 'out of game' is entirely one of player perceptions. That's why changing a character's race might be an acceptable purchase, while getting a blue hat might not be.
Originally posted by Zlayer77 HAHAHA in the end you are buying AIR/nothing you are spending money to buy NOTHING.... virtual gods have no lasting value, Its like selling sand to the Arabs.
You are paying for the opportunity to sit in front of a computer and press buttons. There are quite a few people who would think that you're a few arrows shy of a full quiver if you do that.
Just because you don't see value in something doesn't mean that others cannot. As the saying goes, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". You see value in moving a cartoon image around on a computer screen. Others don't.
Which of the two of you lives a healthier life is a separate debate. You certainly didn't win any points for computer gamers with your post.
HAHAHA in the end you are buying AIR/nothing you are spending money to buy NOTHING.... virtual gods have no lasting value, Its like selling sand to the Arabs.
You are paying for the opportunity to sit in front of a computer and press buttons. There are quite a few people who would think that you're a few arrows shy of a full quiver if you do that.
Just because you don't see value in something doesn't mean that others cannot. As the saying goes, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". You see value in moving a cartoon image around on a computer screen. Others don't.
Which of the two of you lives a healthier life is a separate debate. You certainly didn't win any points for computer gamers with your post.
Im sorry if you got offended my friend.. But I feel strongly that RMT is a way of Exploiting the people who play online games. The hole buisness modle makes me sick so in the end I resorted to down right Riddecule to make people WAKE UP! I suspect some people in this thread are working for the RMT companies but we realy need to make a stand against this kind of activity. ITs a downright SCAM to make people pay for virtual items... Im sorry but that is how I feel.
That's an interesting view of the topic. Unfortunately, the fundamental idea behind RMT is that people care enough about some game change to pay money for it. If there are players who care, then there will be players who care and who don't have the money. They will feel at a disadvantage, feel slighted or feel that they aren't experiencing the whole game.
But isn't that more of a problem with a player palying a game they probably shouldn't be playing than a problem with RMT? If I'm not willing/able to spend money at a casino, I don't go to a casino. That doesn't make gambling for money bad and it definitely doesn't mean that others shouldn't be able to enjoy it if they can afford to or want to.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
HAHAHA in the end you are buying AIR/nothing you are spending money to buy NOTHING.... virtual gods have no lasting value, Its like selling sand to the Arabs.
You are paying for the opportunity to sit in front of a computer and press buttons. There are quite a few people who would think that you're a few arrows shy of a full quiver if you do that.
Just because you don't see value in something doesn't mean that others cannot. As the saying goes, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". You see value in moving a cartoon image around on a computer screen. Others don't.
Which of the two of you lives a healthier life is a separate debate. You certainly didn't win any points for computer gamers with your post.
Im sorry if you got offended my friend.. But I feel strongly that RMT is a way of Exploiting the people who play online games. The hole buisness modle makes me sick so in the end I resorted to down right Riddecule to make people WAKE UP! I suspect some people in this thread are working for the RMT companies but we realy need to make a stand against this kind of activity. ITs a downright SCAM to make people pay for virtual items... Im sorry but that is how I feel.
Hmm, Zlayer, I didn't see anything in his post to indicate that he was offended by your attempt at martyrdom. I would recommend two things for you. Here's one, and here's the other.
HAHAHA in the end you are buying AIR/nothing you are spending money to buy NOTHING.... virtual gods have no lasting value, Its like selling sand to the Arabs.
You are paying for the opportunity to sit in front of a computer and press buttons. There are quite a few people who would think that you're a few arrows shy of a full quiver if you do that.
Just because you don't see value in something doesn't mean that others cannot. As the saying goes, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". You see value in moving a cartoon image around on a computer screen. Others don't.
Which of the two of you lives a healthier life is a separate debate. You certainly didn't win any points for computer gamers with your post.
Im sorry if you got offended my friend.. But I feel strongly that RMT is a way of Exploiting the people who play online games. The hole buisness modle makes me sick so in the end I resorted to down right Riddecule to make people WAKE UP! I suspect some people in this thread are working for the RMT companies but we realy need to make a stand against this kind of activity. ITs a downright SCAM to make people pay for virtual items... Im sorry but that is how I feel.
Hmm, Zlayer, I didn't see anything in his post to indicate that he was offended by your attempt at martyrdom. I would recommend two things for you. Here's one, and here's the other.
Well english is not my main language but thanks for pointing that out we could maybe have this argument in my native language instead, I doubt you would understand mush though....
and why I must ask do you think I play the Martyr? I play EvE where we actually allow spending cash for ingame money.
But that is another mather then the RMT shops....most of them are made to make you spend more money, by tempting you with virtual items that are only a click away with you credit card. If you think this is good buisness go right ahead and give them your money dont let me stop you....
I know analogies can be hard to follow or flawed, but try this one. We are climbing a mountain. We meet at the top of the mountain. There is no way in the Universe to get to the top, except to do it one step at a time, all the way up. Now, we look at each other, and we know we have both taken every step up the mountain. Do I care, or do you, if one of us got there quicker? Do I care if you got there in a week, and it took me 6 months? No. I know, that either way, you went through every encounter I did to get there regardless of the time taken (think of this as content). So, in this case we don't measure by SPEED we measure by foot steps taken to reach the top. No matter how quickly I do it or how slowly you do it, or vice a versa, we know one thing, there's no way to avoid those footsteps, they have to be taken. This is want makes us equal, the amount of footsteps we have taken, NOT THE SPEED at which we take them. Now, imagine there is a helicopter that can give you a lift up the side of the mountain if you feel like taking a break from climbing now and then. We reach the top of the mountain. Did you take the same footsteps I did, or did you ride in the Helicopter? Did you ride part of the way, most of the way, only a little bit of the way? How can this be perceived as equal on any level? RMT lets you skip content. P2P means you MUST do the content, no matter how fast or slow. Thats' what we like about P2P instead of RMT, knowing everyone has to do the same content, no matter how fast or how slow. Need to kill 1,000 mobs to get to level 5? There is no shortcut, you MUST kill 1,000 mobs. I don't care if you do it in one sitting of 8 hours, or 30 minutes a day, either way IT"S STILL 1,000 MOBS! With RMT, take an XP potion. Maybe you killed 900 Mobs, maybe 500, maybe only 100. Who knows?
I like your analogy, it does have charm to journey together and accomplish the same goals. However i think it also has some flaws. For starters there are more ways than one to climb a mountain, as a matter of fact part of the challenge can be to do it in a manner noone has ever done it before or take a different route. That's what might keep things interesting instead of following the exact footsteps of your predecessor. You also assume people climb that mountain for the climbing alone, while others might simply go there because of the view or to use it as a starting point for their sky-diving and consider the climbing neccesary evil. Lastly, even without RMT, unless you travelled together you never know how someone else got there, 900 steps maybe 500 or 100, skill X, exploit Y, but does that really matter? Assuming You enjoyed the way you got there.
I don't consider buying items/stuff gained through RMT a goal, they're the mountaintop in order to enjoy a view, they're that starting point to do other enjoyable things with or from. A crafter might buy his resources from a miner, through ingame auction or through RMT all of which might be ingame features. I don't think any less of him for not going out to gather them by himself.
If you'll alow me an analogy of my own: Both me and my father immensely enjoy wintersports, we used to go almost every year. Back in his days there were no ski-lifts so he had to walk up all the way, he sometimes still enjoys that part too but luckily for me i can pay for my ride back up and meet him there to go back down together. There's no cheating, he enjoys it, i enjoy it how much more equal do you want it to get?
To answer your analogy, I may want to go ski somewhere there are no lifts. If there is a lift, I will take the lift. This woulds ruin the idea of going somewhere there is no lift. It's not about YOU being able to take the lift, it as about ME being able to take the lift. How can you design the mountain so only YOU can take the lift, but I cannot? It is not possible.
I have also made this point. Those that want P2P and hate RMT, like myself, and those that taht like RMT are after two different things.
I want to earn the sword. I want the only way for me ot earn the sword to be doing the content. If you let me buy the sword, it cheapens the experience for me. I have five bucks, I'm not going to gimp my self so I can save five bucks. I'll buy the sword if you let me, then promptly quit teh game, because buying it wasn't any fun. But I don't want the sword. I don't care about the sword. It is only a measure of what content I"ve done so far, and it may also open up new content to me.
So the journey of climbing the mountain is fun to me, the view from the top is only significant because it is a symbol of the journey I've taken.
Those that like RMT don't care about the journey. They want the sword. They don't want to do the content, only to have the item the content would have provided. They may, as you suggest, only want the view, and care nothing for the journey that would provide that view.
I don't want to stand at the top of the mountain with thsoe people that took the helicopter just for the view. I"d rather go to a mountain where the only way to the top is to climb, and the only people I see at the top are those that have shared the saem experience I have gone through.
Now, this does not mean that there should be no RMT games. Great, make RMT games by the millions for all the people that like to play them. Just don't expect me to play a game with RMT, and make games for me that have no RMT.
I see this issue just like making a good grouping game. If you allow people to solo, you allow ME to solo, and that ruins the game for me. You cannot say it doesn't affect my game play, because it does. If you allow people to buy items with RMT, you allow ME to buy items with RMT, and that ruins my game play. YOu cannot say it has no impact on me at all.
If you are paying 15 dollars a month, you are paying for in game content. It is the exact same thing, except with RMT you can choose more specifically where your money goes. It's not the "anti-game."
Beau
I totally agree with your comments and think it should be down to choice, however I would also agree that their should be a special server dedicated for RMT and others for normal, this would give everyone the choice.
If you are paying 15 dollars a month, you are paying for in game content. It is the exact same thing, except with RMT you can choose more specifically where your money goes. It's not the "anti-game."
Beau
I totally agree with your comments and think it should be down to choice, however I would also agree that their should be a special server dedicated for RMT and others for normal, this would give everyone the choice.
Bandit.
Certainly I"d have no problem with that. I would play on the monthly subscription fee server with no RMT, and it would not bother me at all if you were playing on an RMT server.
What I can’t wait for is when they introduce RMP to solo offline games! Then I can insert my DVD, start the game and use the cash shop to take me to the last scene! Wow aren’t I clever!
Woo boy this thread is hot! Big walls of texts, quotes and enough attitude to put Paris Hilton to shame.
I have to agree with OP and comments made along the way. Yes there is some terrible RMT and terrible games in general around the net. My relationship with the unistall button isn't as a stranger. And we have a choice if we will continue to play said game or not. Now on one hand in RMT, I can leave it there indefinately and if for some reason I go back I just have to patch it and WA-LA! I'm back in business. On the other hand, if I decide to not play said p2p game, I'll use LOTRO as an example; I am actually wasting the rest of the monthly subscription my $10 and if I go back I have to PAY for another subscription whether it be 1,3,6 or 12 months. They are expecting some money from me.
F2P already knows that there is a certain amount of people that will not pay a dime to play their game. They use something called the "89/10/1" rule, and to quote John Davison, co-founder of WhatTheyPlay.com, a Web site that helps parents navigate the many game choices for their kids.
This rule, Davison says, assumes that 89 percent of your audience is playing for free, 10 percent is paying for something and 1 percent is spending a lot of money, buying new clothes or convenience items for their avatars. - Courtesy MSNBC.com
And with Free Realms that has already hit the 2 million mark, 1% of 2mil is 20,000 and now your talking real money. RMT or what I call it, Pay As You Go is the new breed of online content that many favor and the P2P is in my eyes a lease payment due at the end of the month. I really never OWN anything, I just rent it for a certain amount of time.
This market is expandiing and getting more competitive, no one is settling for low quality and they don't have to. These companies are under pressure and already have a few points against them, they need to step up or the next expansion of games is going to hurt the bottom line which is money. These games are a business that doesn't run on good looks, charm and personality servers cost money and so does the manpower to keep them running.
I don't think RMT is inevitable, I feel that is going to be an evolution of an already established machine and stand as a separate entiity. It is going to stay, but it will stand apart from a larger part of the industry and will attract different players. We are all as different as the characters we play in these games.
To answer your analogy, I may want to go ski somewhere there are no lifts. If there is a lift, I will take the lift. This woulds ruin the idea of going somewhere there is no lift. It's not about YOU being able to take the lift, it as about ME being able to take the lift. How can you design the mountain so only YOU can take the lift, but I cannot? It is not possible. I have also made this point. Those that want P2P and hate RMT, like myself, and those that taht like RMT are after two different things. I want to earn the sword. I want the only way for me ot earn the sword to be doing the content. If you let me buy the sword, it cheapens the experience for me. I have five bucks, I'm not going to gimp my self so I can save five bucks. I'll buy the sword if you let me, then promptly quit teh game, because buying it wasn't any fun. But I don't want the sword. I don't care about the sword. It is only a measure of what content I"ve done so far, and it may also open up new content to me. So the journey of climbing the mountain is fun to me, the view from the top is only significant because it is a symbol of the journey I've taken. Those that like RMT don't care about the journey. They want the sword. They don't want to do the content, only to have the item the content would have provided. They may, as you suggest, only want the view, and care nothing for the journey that would provide that view. I don't want to stand at the top of the mountain with thsoe people that took the helicopter just for the view. I"d rather go to a mountain where the only way to the top is to climb, and the only people I see at the top are those that have shared the saem experience I have gone through. Now, this does not mean that there should be no RMT games. Great, make RMT games by the millions for all the people that like to play them. Just don't expect me to play a game with RMT, and make games for me that have no RMT. I see this issue just like making a good grouping game. If you allow people to solo, you allow ME to solo, and that ruins the game for me. You cannot say it doesn't affect my game play, because it does. If you allow people to buy items with RMT, you allow ME to buy items with RMT, and that ruins my game play. YOu cannot say it has no impact on me at all.
So, on one hand you value the content / journey above everything else, you want to earn it and you only value an item because it represents an experience. On the other hand you won't "gimp yourself " and buy that same item when given the option even though you don't actually want the item. That does sound somewhat contradictory to me If i understand correctly you don't want to be tempted to ruin your own gameplay, which is perfectly fine ofcourse as everyone is free to (and should) find a mountain/game of their liking. I simply wanted to point out that people who do use RMT might enjoy the journey / experience too but in a different way. I don't value the item/exp i bought as a symbol of the journey taken (there is none) but because it opens up new ways to enjoy other content of the game.
Main thing I know is that if it was just a matter of buying stuff to speed up the game a little....no biggie, but here is an example.
(most people have play'd WOW i'll use that)
I am level 30, spent the last 2 weeks getting there (i'm slow :P ) and I have done a ton of raids and havn't gotten that good of items, or whatever....and i'm out farming NPCs and out of no where another level 30 player comes and kills me because he was able to spend the 30 bucks for that twink item... fair? I think not.
Now...I think that people should have a choice on what they spend money on, or not. BUT when it starts effecting MY game play, that is where the problem is.
now I know some of you tards are like "well stop playing the game"....doh. thats like me saying "Don't like Obama? move to another country"....serously...get your head out of your @SS.
Now I can afford to spend money on games. monthly. or buying extra items. but I don't. why? well 1. because I think its a wast of money 2. I think it takes away from the gameplay. And yes your right....its my choice. but when MY gameplay is ruined and MY 15.99 is ruined by some kid who got 20$ from grandma......that is when I have a problem
So all it all. I think the RMT servers and the none RMT servers should exist. And quite honestly I think the non-RMT ones will be more populated.
Disclaimer: I really dont' like Obama, he is F'ing up this country...but it was an example.
The only arguments FOR RMT I have seen is because people seem to think buying items instead of playing the game is somehow giving them what the player who has played the game and gotten the items. It will never work like that. You can't buy the experience of enjoying and playing the game to obtain the "trophies". That is all the items are, you can't buy trophies as they are meant to represent an experience. All you buy by swiping your credit card is a virtual item with no value behind it. The only value you can find in a video game is enjoyment from playing it. Video games are meant to be played.
The simple thing to do is when you find a game that is unfun or you feel you do not have enough time to enjoy it how you would like to is to quit it. You can always find a game that you can actually PLAY and enjoy. That is what games are anyhow, fun leisure activities meant to be played and enjoyed. RMT skews this into something else. I am actually fine though with RMT games built from the beginning using that model, I consider that a gambling casino type game for people who enjoy that. That becomes a game for people who want to see if they can out do someone else in the real life money game.
To say though it is inevitable for all games ... I don't think so. Not all gamers want to play that type of real life game. A lot of folks like myself like to play video games for the enjoyment of playing and advancing. People also shouldn't label people who do not like RMT as someone who plays 24/7. They could be just like me who has a wife and children who doesn't play every day but when I play I get the satisfaction of obtaining all items in game. You start swiping credit cards in game for items, then you brought me out of the game world into the real life world which I do all day at work etc. I don't care for that in my leisure gaming time. If the MMO genre ever does become so greedy with dollar signs that they think they can force RMT on ALL MMO games then I will not be playing MMOs anymore, it is that simple. Like I said vote with your wallets. I don't support RMT.
I know analogies can be hard to follow or flawed, but try this one. We are climbing a mountain. We meet at the top of the mountain. There is no way in the Universe to get to the top, except to do it one step at a time, all the way up. Now, we look at each other, and we know we have both taken every step up the mountain. Do I care, or do you, if one of us got there quicker? Do I care if you got there in a week, and it took me 6 months? No. I know, that either way, you went through every encounter I did to get there regardless of the time taken (think of this as content). So, in this case we don't measure by SPEED we measure by foot steps taken to reach the top. No matter how quickly I do it or how slowly you do it, or vice a versa, we know one thing, there's no way to avoid those footsteps, they have to be taken. This is want makes us equal, the amount of footsteps we have taken, NOT THE SPEED at which we take them. Now, imagine there is a helicopter that can give you a lift up the side of the mountain if you feel like taking a break from climbing now and then. We reach the top of the mountain. Did you take the same footsteps I did, or did you ride in the Helicopter? Did you ride part of the way, most of the way, only a little bit of the way? How can this be perceived as equal on any level? RMT lets you skip content. P2P means you MUST do the content, no matter how fast or slow. Thats' what we like about P2P instead of RMT, knowing everyone has to do the same content, no matter how fast or how slow. Need to kill 1,000 mobs to get to level 5? There is no shortcut, you MUST kill 1,000 mobs. I don't care if you do it in one sitting of 8 hours, or 30 minutes a day, either way IT"S STILL 1,000 MOBS! With RMT, take an XP potion. Maybe you killed 900 Mobs, maybe 500, maybe only 100. Who knows?
Actually I can use that same analogy for an anti-RMT argument. If it is true like you said no one should care who gets to top the fastest only if we both get there, then why does it matter if you can't play as much as someone else? I mean you may just get to enjoy the game at a slower pace but you will get there.
The only arguments FOR RMT I have seen is because people seem to think buying items instead of playing the game is somehow giving them what the player who has played the game and gotten the items. It will never work like that. You can't buy the experience of enjoying and playing the game to obtain the "trophies". That is all the items are, you can't buy trophies as they are meant to represent an experience. All you buy by swiping your credit card is a virtual item with no value behind it. The only value you can find in a video game is enjoyment from playing it. Video games are meant to be played.
The simple thing to do is when you find a game that is unfun or you feel you do not have enough time to enjoy it how you would like to is to quit it. You can always find a game that you can actually PLAY and enjoy. That is what games are anyhow, fun leisure activities meant to be played and enjoyed. RMT skews this into something else. I am actually fine though with RMT games built from the beginning using that model, I consider that a gambling casino type game for people who enjoy that. That becomes a game for people who want to see if they can out do someone else in the real life money game.
To say though it is inevitable for all games ... I don't think so. Not all gamers want to play that type of real life game. A lot of folks like myself like to play video games for the enjoyment of playing and advancing. People also shouldn't label people who do not like RMT as someone who plays 24/7. They could be just like me who has a wife and children who doesn't play every day but when I play I get the satisfaction of obtaining all items in game. You start swiping credit cards in game for items, then you brought me out of the game world into the real life world which I do all day at work etc. I don't care for that in my leisure gaming time. If the MMO genre ever does become so greedy with dollar signs that they think they can force RMT on ALL MMO games then I will not be playing MMOs anymore, it is that simple. Like I said vote with your wallets. I don't support RMT.
Items may be trophies for you, but for many people they are just tools.
I don't enjoy earning the money to buy a hammer, though I might enjoy building something with that hammer.
Why do you insist on telling people how they should find enjoyment and where they should spend their money? If I spend money on a virtual sword, I am not buying it as a trophy, I am buying it as a tool to help me enjoy the game.
So many of these anti RMT arguments are bordering on retarded. I have not seen anyone advocating the purchase of some almighty trophy, or even a maxed out character. They are simply talking about purchasing tools that will let them get to the enjoyable parts of the game fast... rather than grind for hours and hours to get a weapon, I spend a couple bucks, get my weapon, and then get to what I consider to be fun.
If grinding for hours to buy a weapon is enjoyable for you, then by all means I suggest you do it. Just don't expect me to want to do the same.
There is good RMT, acceptable RMT, and terrible RMT.
That's an interesting view of the topic. Unfortunately, the fundamental idea behind RMT is that people care enough about some game change to pay money for it. If there are players who care, then there will be players who care and who don't have the money. They will feel at a disadvantage, feel slighted or feel that they aren't experiencing the whole game. If players didn't care one way or the other, then the game changes would likely never be paid for. It is the fact that players care enough to pay that makes RMT impractical for changes to a player's game experience.
The only situation that I can see additional payments working is when the payments are for services that are outside of the game experience itself. Moving a character between servers, ordering a physical model of your character with its equipment and so on.
The distinction between being 'in game' and 'out of game' is entirely one of player perceptions. That's why changing a character's race might be an acceptable purchase, while getting a blue hat might not be.
If you are paying 15 dollars a month, you are paying for in game content. It is the exact same thing, except with RMT you can choose more specifically where your money goes. It's not the "anti-game."
Beau
I totally agree with your comments and think it should be down to choice, however I would also agree that their should be a special server dedicated for RMT and others for normal, this would give everyone the choice.
Bandit.
Certainly I"d have no problem with that. I would play on the monthly subscription fee server with no RMT, and it would not bother me at all if you were playing on an RMT server.
This is what needs to happen as a compromise. Not everyone wants RMT in their games.
Items may be trophies for you, but for many people they are just tools. I don't enjoy earning the money to buy a hammer, though I might enjoy building something with that hammer. Why do you insist on telling people how they should find enjoyment and where they should spend their money? If I spend money on a virtual sword, I am not buying it as a trophy, I am buying it as a tool to help me enjoy the game. So many of these anti RMT arguments are bordering on retarded. I have not seen anyone advocating the purchase of some almighty trophy, or even a maxed out character. They are simply talking about purchasing tools that will let them get to the enjoyable parts of the game fast... rather than grind for hours and hours to get a weapon, I spend a couple bucks, get my weapon, and then get to what I consider to be fun. If grinding for hours to buy a weapon is enjoyable for you, then by all means I suggest you do it. Just don't expect me to want to do the same.
I have to ask why would you support and play games that require you to grind and grind for hours? If I felt that way about a game I would quit. If I describe a game as "grinding" or make it sound so terrible boring I would play something else. I don't play games that I feel are badly designed or unfun to me. My point is you are playing the incorrect games if you are paying to skip parts of them. Why pay the developers for virtual gold, items etc to "fix" there poorly designed game for you instead of voting with your wallet by making a statement that that isn't the gameplay you like. That is illogical.
That is like buying a car that has no seats then complaining that you like cars with seats. Instead of not purchasing that car in the first place, you buy it anyway and then go out and buy seats for it. Why not purchase a car with seats in the first place? If you continue to purchase cars without seats and then purchase seats for that car .. it will become normal for cars without seats to be sold because the customer wants them like that. They voted with their wallet.
I just did a custom gamelist search and came up with roughly 60 pay to play games and approximately 100 free to play games marked either micro or free (which means RMT).
This means that noone is forced to play RMT games, you have over 60 choices.
And noone is forced to pay to play any MMORPG's, you have over 100 choices.
I just did a custom gamelist search and came up with roughly 60 pay to play games and approximately 100 free to play games marked either micro or free (which means RMT). This means that noone is forced to play RMT games, you have over 60 choices. And noone is forced to pay to play any MMORPG's, you have over 100 choices. Enjoy, ~Ink
Hopefully there will always be P2P games without RMT for folks that do not want to play a real life money game instead of just a video game. I would actually wouldn't mind RMT if it stays out of the in game and just happens out of game. Character transfers, name changes, account merges, race changes, gender changes, etc.
My reasoning is like many on here that are against playing RMT games is when it starts coming to items and transactions that I can see in game it detracts from my play experience. If there are servers with RMT and without then I am satisfied. But look just what happened to EQ recently. Not only are their subscribers paying a subscription fee, SOE has implemented a virtual item shop on top of that. That is pure greed and also goes against what EQ is. It was not designed from the ground up with item shops. If am paying a sub fee I best be able to obtain EVERY item in the game be it cosmetic or substantial via PLAYING the game.
Why didn't they just do this on some servers and let people transfer away or to the servers that had this?
I know analogies can be hard to follow or flawed, but try this one. We are climbing a mountain. We meet at the top of the mountain. There is no way in the Universe to get to the top, except to do it one step at a time, all the way up. Now, we look at each other, and we know we have both taken every step up the mountain. Do I care, or do you, if one of us got there quicker? Do I care if you got there in a week, and it took me 6 months? No. I know, that either way, you went through every encounter I did to get there regardless of the time taken (think of this as content). So, in this case we don't measure by SPEED we measure by foot steps taken to reach the top. No matter how quickly I do it or how slowly you do it, or vice a versa, we know one thing, there's no way to avoid those footsteps, they have to be taken. This is want makes us equal, the amount of footsteps we have taken, NOT THE SPEED at which we take them. Now, imagine there is a helicopter that can give you a lift up the side of the mountain if you feel like taking a break from climbing now and then. We reach the top of the mountain. Did you take the same footsteps I did, or did you ride in the Helicopter? Did you ride part of the way, most of the way, only a little bit of the way? How can this be perceived as equal on any level? RMT lets you skip content. P2P means you MUST do the content, no matter how fast or slow. Thats' what we like about P2P instead of RMT, knowing everyone has to do the same content, no matter how fast or how slow. Need to kill 1,000 mobs to get to level 5? There is no shortcut, you MUST kill 1,000 mobs. I don't care if you do it in one sitting of 8 hours, or 30 minutes a day, either way IT"S STILL 1,000 MOBS! With RMT, take an XP potion. Maybe you killed 900 Mobs, maybe 500, maybe only 100. Who knows?
Actually I can use that same analogy for an anti-RMT argument. If it is true like you said no one should care who gets to top the fastest only if we both get there, then why does it matter if you can't play as much as someone else? I mean you may just get to enjoy the game at a slower pace but you will get there.
The only arguments FOR RMT I have seen is because people seem to think buying items instead of playing the game is somehow giving them what the player who has played the game and gotten the items. It will never work like that. You can't buy the experience of enjoying and playing the game to obtain the "trophies". That is all the items are, you can't buy trophies as they are meant to represent an experience. All you buy by swiping your credit card is a virtual item with no value behind it. The only value you can find in a video game is enjoyment from playing it. Video games are meant to be played.
The simple thing to do is when you find a game that is unfun or you feel you do not have enough time to enjoy it how you would like to is to quit it. You can always find a game that you can actually PLAY and enjoy. That is what games are anyhow, fun leisure activities meant to be played and enjoyed. RMT skews this into something else. I am actually fine though with RMT games built from the beginning using that model, I consider that a gambling casino type game for people who enjoy that. That becomes a game for people who want to see if they can out do someone else in the real life money game.
To say though it is inevitable for all games ... I don't think so. Not all gamers want to play that type of real life game. A lot of folks like myself like to play video games for the enjoyment of playing and advancing. People also shouldn't label people who do not like RMT as someone who plays 24/7. They could be just like me who has a wife and children who doesn't play every day but when I play I get the satisfaction of obtaining all items in game. You start swiping credit cards in game for items, then you brought me out of the game world into the real life world which I do all day at work etc. I don't care for that in my leisure gaming time. If the MMO genre ever does become so greedy with dollar signs that they think they can force RMT on ALL MMO games then I will not be playing MMOs anymore, it is that simple. Like I said vote with your wallets. I don't support RMT.
Items may be trophies for you, but for many people they are just tools.
I don't enjoy earning the money to buy a hammer, though I might enjoy building something with that hammer.
Why do you insist on telling people how they should find enjoyment and where they should spend their money? If I spend money on a virtual sword, I am not buying it as a trophy, I am buying it as a tool to help me enjoy the game.
So many of these anti RMT arguments are bordering on retarded. I have not seen anyone advocating the purchase of some almighty trophy, or even a maxed out character. They are simply talking about purchasing tools that will let them get to the enjoyable parts of the game fast... rather than grind for hours and hours to get a weapon, I spend a couple bucks, get my weapon, and then get to what I consider to be fun.
If grinding for hours to buy a weapon is enjoyable for you, then by all means I suggest you do it. Just don't expect me to want to do the same.
So you wouldn't have a problem with some one spending say...and extra 100 dollers and being a level 70? (or 80, 90 whatever)...all geared out? It would only be fair. that way they could get right into the action and "start building with there hammers"
I know analogies can be hard to follow or flawed, but try this one. We are climbing a mountain. We meet at the top of the mountain. There is no way in the Universe to get to the top, except to do it one step at a time, all the way up. Now, we look at each other, and we know we have both taken every step up the mountain. Do I care, or do you, if one of us got there quicker? Do I care if you got there in a week, and it took me 6 months? No. I know, that either way, you went through every encounter I did to get there regardless of the time taken (think of this as content). So, in this case we don't measure by SPEED we measure by foot steps taken to reach the top. No matter how quickly I do it or how slowly you do it, or vice a versa, we know one thing, there's no way to avoid those footsteps, they have to be taken. This is want makes us equal, the amount of footsteps we have taken, NOT THE SPEED at which we take them. Now, imagine there is a helicopter that can give you a lift up the side of the mountain if you feel like taking a break from climbing now and then. We reach the top of the mountain. Did you take the same footsteps I did, or did you ride in the Helicopter? Did you ride part of the way, most of the way, only a little bit of the way? How can this be perceived as equal on any level? RMT lets you skip content. P2P means you MUST do the content, no matter how fast or slow. Thats' what we like about P2P instead of RMT, knowing everyone has to do the same content, no matter how fast or how slow. Need to kill 1,000 mobs to get to level 5? There is no shortcut, you MUST kill 1,000 mobs. I don't care if you do it in one sitting of 8 hours, or 30 minutes a day, either way IT"S STILL 1,000 MOBS! With RMT, take an XP potion. Maybe you killed 900 Mobs, maybe 500, maybe only 100. Who knows?
While you are playing the game or climbing the mountain, do you enjoy the act itself, or do you enjoy forcing everyone to do it the way you do?
And, why do you care if he climbs or use the helicopter? If he use the helicopter, will it ruin your slow climbing? Will the path collapse, or ... ?
A game is a game for a reason. Everything I can achieve, get, create, and destroy should be done by playing the game. Swiping a credit card is not playing the game, it is skipping the game. I think it's terrible if key things in the game are available for real life money, and I think it is even worst if necessary things are ONLY available for real life money. If this genre is heading down the road of RMT, it will be a genre without me.
Quoted for the truth. Im happy not everyoen has gone and lost thiere minds on theses boards. There are still some sane people left
Quoted for total nonsense.
A game is a game to whoever wants to play it the way s/he likes. You play it your way and stop telling us how to play our game. You have told us your views about how a game is to you, no CC, no RMT. OK, your view taken, that is your view. Not a truth. There is no truth in this issue.
If you want to leave games with RMT, fine. That means 1 less out of millions of gamers. No big deal.
I already stated my view long ago. RMT from developers are acceptable to me, whether I will play that game or any game at all depends on the gameplay. RMT is one of the factors under consideration when assessing a game, not the only. A crap game like DF without RMT is still a crap game. A good game like Eve, with its unique form of payment, or the extra bells and whistles from WoW using RMT (character/server transfer/rename) does not diminish the gameplay of EvE or WoW.
RMT from illegal gold farmers are not acceptable to me.
Comments
I like your analogy, it does have charm to journey together and accomplish the same goals. However i think it also has some flaws. For starters there are more ways than one to climb a mountain, as a matter of fact part of the challenge can be to do it in a manner noone has ever done it before or take a different route. That's what might keep things interesting instead of following the exact footsteps of your predecessor. You also assume people climb that mountain for the climbing alone, while others might simply go there because of the view or to use it as a starting point for their sky-diving and consider the climbing neccesary evil. Lastly, even without RMT, unless you travelled together you never know how someone else got there, 900 steps maybe 500 or 100, skill X, exploit Y, but does that really matter? Assuming You enjoyed the way you got there.
I don't consider buying items/stuff gained through RMT a goal, they're the mountaintop in order to enjoy a view, they're that starting point to do other enjoyable things with or from. A crafter might buy his resources from a miner, through ingame auction or through RMT all of which might be ingame features. I don't think any less of him for not going out to gather them by himself.
If you'll alow me an analogy of my own: Both me and my father immensely enjoy wintersports, we used to go almost every year. Back in his days there were no ski-lifts so he had to walk up all the way, he sometimes still enjoys that part too but luckily for me i can pay for my ride back up and meet him there to go back down together. There's no cheating, he enjoys it, i enjoy it how much more equal do you want it to get?
I like your analogy, it does have charm to journey together and accomplish the same goals. However i think it also has some flaws. For starters there are more ways than one to climb a mountain, as a matter of fact part of the challenge can be to do it in a manner noone has ever done it before or take a different route. That's what might keep things interesting instead of following the exact footsteps of your predecessor. You also assume people climb that mountain for the climbing alone, while others might simply go there because of the view or to use it as a starting point for their sky-diving and consider the climbing neccesary evil. Lastly, even without RMT, unless you travelled together you never know how someone else got there, 900 steps maybe 500 or 100, skill X, exploit Y, but does that really matter? Assuming You enjoyed the way you got there.
I don't consider buying items/stuff gained through RMT a goal, they're the mountaintop in order to enjoy a view, they're that starting point to do other enjoyable things with or from. A crafter might buy his resources from a miner, through ingame auction or through RMT all of which might be ingame features. I don't think any less of him for not going out to gather them by himself.
If you'll alow me an analogy of my own: Both me and my father immensely enjoy wintersports, we used to go almost every year. Back in his days there were no ski-lifts so he had to walk up all the way, he sometimes still enjoys that part too but luckily for me i can pay for my ride back up and meet him there to go back down together. There's no cheating, he enjoys it, i enjoy it how much more equal do you want it to get?
HAHAHA in the end you are buying AIR/nothing you are spending money to buy NOTHING.... virtual gods have no lasting value, Its like selling sand to the Arabs.
I CANT FOR THE WORLD UNDERSTAND that people are willing to buy Zeros and ones for REAL money.
If you pay a subsricption you pay to get a magazine or to have a service like an internet conection, game access etc. IF you are buying virtual goods you are Buying NOTHING..... IT aint worth shit.. HOW the hell can you all defend this business modle. Cant you see they are ripping you off HAHAHAHAH.....rolf
That's an interesting view of the topic. Unfortunately, the fundamental idea behind RMT is that people care enough about some game change to pay money for it. If there are players who care, then there will be players who care and who don't have the money. They will feel at a disadvantage, feel slighted or feel that they aren't experiencing the whole game. If players didn't care one way or the other, then the game changes would likely never be paid for. It is the fact that players care enough to pay that makes RMT impractical for changes to a player's game experience.
The only situation that I can see additional payments working is when the payments are for services that are outside of the game experience itself. Moving a character between servers, ordering a physical model of your character with its equipment and so on.
The distinction between being 'in game' and 'out of game' is entirely one of player perceptions. That's why changing a character's race might be an acceptable purchase, while getting a blue hat might not be.
You are paying for the opportunity to sit in front of a computer and press buttons. There are quite a few people who would think that you're a few arrows shy of a full quiver if you do that.
Just because you don't see value in something doesn't mean that others cannot. As the saying goes, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". You see value in moving a cartoon image around on a computer screen. Others don't.
Which of the two of you lives a healthier life is a separate debate. You certainly didn't win any points for computer gamers with your post.
You are paying for the opportunity to sit in front of a computer and press buttons. There are quite a few people who would think that you're a few arrows shy of a full quiver if you do that.
Just because you don't see value in something doesn't mean that others cannot. As the saying goes, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". You see value in moving a cartoon image around on a computer screen. Others don't.
Which of the two of you lives a healthier life is a separate debate. You certainly didn't win any points for computer gamers with your post.
Im sorry if you got offended my friend.. But I feel strongly that RMT is a way of Exploiting the people who play online games. The hole buisness modle makes me sick so in the end I resorted to down right Riddecule to make people WAKE UP! I suspect some people in this thread are working for the RMT companies but we realy need to make a stand against this kind of activity. ITs a downright SCAM to make people pay for virtual items... Im sorry but that is how I feel.
But isn't that more of a problem with a player palying a game they probably shouldn't be playing than a problem with RMT? If I'm not willing/able to spend money at a casino, I don't go to a casino. That doesn't make gambling for money bad and it definitely doesn't mean that others shouldn't be able to enjoy it if they can afford to or want to.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
You are paying for the opportunity to sit in front of a computer and press buttons. There are quite a few people who would think that you're a few arrows shy of a full quiver if you do that.
Just because you don't see value in something doesn't mean that others cannot. As the saying goes, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". You see value in moving a cartoon image around on a computer screen. Others don't.
Which of the two of you lives a healthier life is a separate debate. You certainly didn't win any points for computer gamers with your post.
Im sorry if you got offended my friend.. But I feel strongly that RMT is a way of Exploiting the people who play online games. The hole buisness modle makes me sick so in the end I resorted to down right Riddecule to make people WAKE UP! I suspect some people in this thread are working for the RMT companies but we realy need to make a stand against this kind of activity. ITs a downright SCAM to make people pay for virtual items... Im sorry but that is how I feel.
Hmm, Zlayer, I didn't see anything in his post to indicate that he was offended by your attempt at martyrdom. I would recommend two things for you. Here's one, and here's the other.
You are paying for the opportunity to sit in front of a computer and press buttons. There are quite a few people who would think that you're a few arrows shy of a full quiver if you do that.
Just because you don't see value in something doesn't mean that others cannot. As the saying goes, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". You see value in moving a cartoon image around on a computer screen. Others don't.
Which of the two of you lives a healthier life is a separate debate. You certainly didn't win any points for computer gamers with your post.
Im sorry if you got offended my friend.. But I feel strongly that RMT is a way of Exploiting the people who play online games. The hole buisness modle makes me sick so in the end I resorted to down right Riddecule to make people WAKE UP! I suspect some people in this thread are working for the RMT companies but we realy need to make a stand against this kind of activity. ITs a downright SCAM to make people pay for virtual items... Im sorry but that is how I feel.
Hmm, Zlayer, I didn't see anything in his post to indicate that he was offended by your attempt at martyrdom. I would recommend two things for you. Here's one, and here's the other.
Well english is not my main language but thanks for pointing that out
we could maybe have this argument in my native language instead, I doubt you would understand mush though....
and why I must ask do you think I play the Martyr? I play EvE where we actually allow spending cash for ingame money.
But that is another mather then the RMT shops....most of them are made to make you spend more money, by tempting you with virtual items that are only a click away with you credit card. If you think this is good buisness go right ahead and give them your money dont let me stop you....
I like your analogy, it does have charm to journey together and accomplish the same goals. However i think it also has some flaws. For starters there are more ways than one to climb a mountain, as a matter of fact part of the challenge can be to do it in a manner noone has ever done it before or take a different route. That's what might keep things interesting instead of following the exact footsteps of your predecessor. You also assume people climb that mountain for the climbing alone, while others might simply go there because of the view or to use it as a starting point for their sky-diving and consider the climbing neccesary evil. Lastly, even without RMT, unless you travelled together you never know how someone else got there, 900 steps maybe 500 or 100, skill X, exploit Y, but does that really matter? Assuming You enjoyed the way you got there.
I don't consider buying items/stuff gained through RMT a goal, they're the mountaintop in order to enjoy a view, they're that starting point to do other enjoyable things with or from. A crafter might buy his resources from a miner, through ingame auction or through RMT all of which might be ingame features. I don't think any less of him for not going out to gather them by himself.
If you'll alow me an analogy of my own: Both me and my father immensely enjoy wintersports, we used to go almost every year. Back in his days there were no ski-lifts so he had to walk up all the way, he sometimes still enjoys that part too but luckily for me i can pay for my ride back up and meet him there to go back down together. There's no cheating, he enjoys it, i enjoy it how much more equal do you want it to get?
To answer your analogy, I may want to go ski somewhere there are no lifts. If there is a lift, I will take the lift. This woulds ruin the idea of going somewhere there is no lift. It's not about YOU being able to take the lift, it as about ME being able to take the lift. How can you design the mountain so only YOU can take the lift, but I cannot? It is not possible.
I have also made this point. Those that want P2P and hate RMT, like myself, and those that taht like RMT are after two different things.
I want to earn the sword. I want the only way for me ot earn the sword to be doing the content. If you let me buy the sword, it cheapens the experience for me. I have five bucks, I'm not going to gimp my self so I can save five bucks. I'll buy the sword if you let me, then promptly quit teh game, because buying it wasn't any fun. But I don't want the sword. I don't care about the sword. It is only a measure of what content I"ve done so far, and it may also open up new content to me.
So the journey of climbing the mountain is fun to me, the view from the top is only significant because it is a symbol of the journey I've taken.
Those that like RMT don't care about the journey. They want the sword. They don't want to do the content, only to have the item the content would have provided. They may, as you suggest, only want the view, and care nothing for the journey that would provide that view.
I don't want to stand at the top of the mountain with thsoe people that took the helicopter just for the view. I"d rather go to a mountain where the only way to the top is to climb, and the only people I see at the top are those that have shared the saem experience I have gone through.
Now, this does not mean that there should be no RMT games. Great, make RMT games by the millions for all the people that like to play them. Just don't expect me to play a game with RMT, and make games for me that have no RMT.
I see this issue just like making a good grouping game. If you allow people to solo, you allow ME to solo, and that ruins the game for me. You cannot say it doesn't affect my game play, because it does. If you allow people to buy items with RMT, you allow ME to buy items with RMT, and that ruins my game play. YOu cannot say it has no impact on me at all.
I totally agree with your comments and think it should be down to choice, however I would also agree that their should be a special server dedicated for RMT and others for normal, this would give everyone the choice.
Bandit.
Asbo
I totally agree with your comments and think it should be down to choice, however I would also agree that their should be a special server dedicated for RMT and others for normal, this would give everyone the choice.
Bandit.
Certainly I"d have no problem with that. I would play on the monthly subscription fee server with no RMT, and it would not bother me at all if you were playing on an RMT server.
What I can’t wait for is when they introduce RMP to solo offline games! Then I can insert my DVD, start the game and use the cash shop to take me to the last scene! Wow aren’t I clever!
Woo boy this thread is hot! Big walls of texts, quotes and enough attitude to put Paris Hilton to shame.
I have to agree with OP and comments made along the way. Yes there is some terrible RMT and terrible games in general around the net. My relationship with the unistall button isn't as a stranger. And we have a choice if we will continue to play said game or not. Now on one hand in RMT, I can leave it there indefinately and if for some reason I go back I just have to patch it and WA-LA! I'm back in business. On the other hand, if I decide to not play said p2p game, I'll use LOTRO as an example; I am actually wasting the rest of the monthly subscription my $10 and if I go back I have to PAY for another subscription whether it be 1,3,6 or 12 months. They are expecting some money from me.
F2P already knows that there is a certain amount of people that will not pay a dime to play their game. They use something called the "89/10/1" rule, and to quote John Davison, co-founder of WhatTheyPlay.com, a Web site that helps parents navigate the many game choices for their kids.
This rule, Davison says, assumes that 89 percent of your audience is playing for free, 10 percent is paying for something and 1 percent is spending a lot of money, buying new clothes or convenience items for their avatars. - Courtesy MSNBC.com
And with Free Realms that has already hit the 2 million mark, 1% of 2mil is 20,000 and now your talking real money. RMT or what I call it, Pay As You Go is the new breed of online content that many favor and the P2P is in my eyes a lease payment due at the end of the month. I really never OWN anything, I just rent it for a certain amount of time.
This market is expandiing and getting more competitive, no one is settling for low quality and they don't have to. These companies are under pressure and already have a few points against them, they need to step up or the next expansion of games is going to hurt the bottom line which is money. These games are a business that doesn't run on good looks, charm and personality servers cost money and so does the manpower to keep them running.
I don't think RMT is inevitable, I feel that is going to be an evolution of an already established machine and stand as a separate entiity. It is going to stay, but it will stand apart from a larger part of the industry and will attract different players. We are all as different as the characters we play in these games.
It all comes down to choice.
Play safe,
~Ink
So, on one hand you value the content / journey above everything else, you want to earn it and you only value an item because it represents an experience. On the other hand you won't "gimp yourself " and buy that same item when given the option even though you don't actually want the item. That does sound somewhat contradictory to me
If i understand correctly you don't want to be tempted to ruin your own gameplay, which is perfectly fine ofcourse as everyone is free to (and should) find a mountain/game of their liking. I simply wanted to point out that people who do use RMT might enjoy the journey / experience too but in a different way. I don't value the item/exp i bought as a symbol of the journey taken (there is none) but because it opens up new ways to enjoy other content of the game.
Main thing I know is that if it was just a matter of buying stuff to speed up the game a little....no biggie, but here is an example.
(most people have play'd WOW i'll use that)
I am level 30, spent the last 2 weeks getting there (i'm slow :P ) and I have done a ton of raids and havn't gotten that good of items, or whatever....and i'm out farming NPCs and out of no where another level 30 player comes and kills me because he was able to spend the 30 bucks for that twink item... fair? I think not.
Now...I think that people should have a choice on what they spend money on, or not. BUT when it starts effecting MY game play, that is where the problem is.
now I know some of you tards are like "well stop playing the game"....doh. thats like me saying "Don't like Obama? move to another country"....serously...get your head out of your @SS.
Now I can afford to spend money on games. monthly. or buying extra items. but I don't. why? well 1. because I think its a wast of money 2. I think it takes away from the gameplay. And yes your right....its my choice. but when MY gameplay is ruined and MY 15.99 is ruined by some kid who got 20$ from grandma......that is when I have a problem
So all it all. I think the RMT servers and the none RMT servers should exist. And quite honestly I think the non-RMT ones will be more populated.
Disclaimer: I really dont' like Obama, he is F'ing up this country...but it was an example.
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The only arguments FOR RMT I have seen is because people seem to think buying items instead of playing the game is somehow giving them what the player who has played the game and gotten the items. It will never work like that. You can't buy the experience of enjoying and playing the game to obtain the "trophies". That is all the items are, you can't buy trophies as they are meant to represent an experience. All you buy by swiping your credit card is a virtual item with no value behind it. The only value you can find in a video game is enjoyment from playing it. Video games are meant to be played.
The simple thing to do is when you find a game that is unfun or you feel you do not have enough time to enjoy it how you would like to is to quit it. You can always find a game that you can actually PLAY and enjoy. That is what games are anyhow, fun leisure activities meant to be played and enjoyed. RMT skews this into something else. I am actually fine though with RMT games built from the beginning using that model, I consider that a gambling casino type game for people who enjoy that. That becomes a game for people who want to see if they can out do someone else in the real life money game.
To say though it is inevitable for all games ... I don't think so. Not all gamers want to play that type of real life game. A lot of folks like myself like to play video games for the enjoyment of playing and advancing. People also shouldn't label people who do not like RMT as someone who plays 24/7. They could be just like me who has a wife and children who doesn't play every day but when I play I get the satisfaction of obtaining all items in game. You start swiping credit cards in game for items, then you brought me out of the game world into the real life world which I do all day at work etc. I don't care for that in my leisure gaming time. If the MMO genre ever does become so greedy with dollar signs that they think they can force RMT on ALL MMO games then I will not be playing MMOs anymore, it is that simple. Like I said vote with your wallets. I don't support RMT.
Actually I can use that same analogy for an anti-RMT argument. If it is true like you said no one should care who gets to top the fastest only if we both get there, then why does it matter if you can't play as much as someone else? I mean you may just get to enjoy the game at a slower pace but you will get there.
The only arguments FOR RMT I have seen is because people seem to think buying items instead of playing the game is somehow giving them what the player who has played the game and gotten the items. It will never work like that. You can't buy the experience of enjoying and playing the game to obtain the "trophies". That is all the items are, you can't buy trophies as they are meant to represent an experience. All you buy by swiping your credit card is a virtual item with no value behind it. The only value you can find in a video game is enjoyment from playing it. Video games are meant to be played.
The simple thing to do is when you find a game that is unfun or you feel you do not have enough time to enjoy it how you would like to is to quit it. You can always find a game that you can actually PLAY and enjoy. That is what games are anyhow, fun leisure activities meant to be played and enjoyed. RMT skews this into something else. I am actually fine though with RMT games built from the beginning using that model, I consider that a gambling casino type game for people who enjoy that. That becomes a game for people who want to see if they can out do someone else in the real life money game.
To say though it is inevitable for all games ... I don't think so. Not all gamers want to play that type of real life game. A lot of folks like myself like to play video games for the enjoyment of playing and advancing. People also shouldn't label people who do not like RMT as someone who plays 24/7. They could be just like me who has a wife and children who doesn't play every day but when I play I get the satisfaction of obtaining all items in game. You start swiping credit cards in game for items, then you brought me out of the game world into the real life world which I do all day at work etc. I don't care for that in my leisure gaming time. If the MMO genre ever does become so greedy with dollar signs that they think they can force RMT on ALL MMO games then I will not be playing MMOs anymore, it is that simple. Like I said vote with your wallets. I don't support RMT.
Items may be trophies for you, but for many people they are just tools.
I don't enjoy earning the money to buy a hammer, though I might enjoy building something with that hammer.
Why do you insist on telling people how they should find enjoyment and where they should spend their money? If I spend money on a virtual sword, I am not buying it as a trophy, I am buying it as a tool to help me enjoy the game.
So many of these anti RMT arguments are bordering on retarded. I have not seen anyone advocating the purchase of some almighty trophy, or even a maxed out character. They are simply talking about purchasing tools that will let them get to the enjoyable parts of the game fast... rather than grind for hours and hours to get a weapon, I spend a couple bucks, get my weapon, and then get to what I consider to be fun.
If grinding for hours to buy a weapon is enjoyable for you, then by all means I suggest you do it. Just don't expect me to want to do the same.
That's an interesting view of the topic. Unfortunately, the fundamental idea behind RMT is that people care enough about some game change to pay money for it. If there are players who care, then there will be players who care and who don't have the money. They will feel at a disadvantage, feel slighted or feel that they aren't experiencing the whole game. If players didn't care one way or the other, then the game changes would likely never be paid for. It is the fact that players care enough to pay that makes RMT impractical for changes to a player's game experience.
The only situation that I can see additional payments working is when the payments are for services that are outside of the game experience itself. Moving a character between servers, ordering a physical model of your character with its equipment and so on.
The distinction between being 'in game' and 'out of game' is entirely one of player perceptions. That's why changing a character's race might be an acceptable purchase, while getting a blue hat might not be.
I agree with you, well said.
I totally agree with your comments and think it should be down to choice, however I would also agree that their should be a special server dedicated for RMT and others for normal, this would give everyone the choice.
Bandit.
Certainly I"d have no problem with that. I would play on the monthly subscription fee server with no RMT, and it would not bother me at all if you were playing on an RMT server.
This is what needs to happen as a compromise. Not everyone wants RMT in their games.
I have to ask why would you support and play games that require you to grind and grind for hours? If I felt that way about a game I would quit. If I describe a game as "grinding" or make it sound so terrible boring I would play something else. I don't play games that I feel are badly designed or unfun to me. My point is you are playing the incorrect games if you are paying to skip parts of them. Why pay the developers for virtual gold, items etc to "fix" there poorly designed game for you instead of voting with your wallet by making a statement that that isn't the gameplay you like. That is illogical.
That is like buying a car that has no seats then complaining that you like cars with seats. Instead of not purchasing that car in the first place, you buy it anyway and then go out and buy seats for it. Why not purchase a car with seats in the first place? If you continue to purchase cars without seats and then purchase seats for that car .. it will become normal for cars without seats to be sold because the customer wants them like that. They voted with their wallet.
I just did a custom gamelist search and came up with roughly 60 pay to play games and approximately 100 free to play games marked either micro or free (which means RMT).
This means that noone is forced to play RMT games, you have over 60 choices.
And noone is forced to pay to play any MMORPG's, you have over 100 choices.
Enjoy,
~Ink
Hopefully there will always be P2P games without RMT for folks that do not want to play a real life money game instead of just a video game. I would actually wouldn't mind RMT if it stays out of the in game and just happens out of game. Character transfers, name changes, account merges, race changes, gender changes, etc.
My reasoning is like many on here that are against playing RMT games is when it starts coming to items and transactions that I can see in game it detracts from my play experience. If there are servers with RMT and without then I am satisfied. But look just what happened to EQ recently. Not only are their subscribers paying a subscription fee, SOE has implemented a virtual item shop on top of that. That is pure greed and also goes against what EQ is. It was not designed from the ground up with item shops. If am paying a sub fee I best be able to obtain EVERY item in the game be it cosmetic or substantial via PLAYING the game.
Why didn't they just do this on some servers and let people transfer away or to the servers that had this?
Actually I can use that same analogy for an anti-RMT argument. If it is true like you said no one should care who gets to top the fastest only if we both get there, then why does it matter if you can't play as much as someone else? I mean you may just get to enjoy the game at a slower pace but you will get there.
The only arguments FOR RMT I have seen is because people seem to think buying items instead of playing the game is somehow giving them what the player who has played the game and gotten the items. It will never work like that. You can't buy the experience of enjoying and playing the game to obtain the "trophies". That is all the items are, you can't buy trophies as they are meant to represent an experience. All you buy by swiping your credit card is a virtual item with no value behind it. The only value you can find in a video game is enjoyment from playing it. Video games are meant to be played.
The simple thing to do is when you find a game that is unfun or you feel you do not have enough time to enjoy it how you would like to is to quit it. You can always find a game that you can actually PLAY and enjoy. That is what games are anyhow, fun leisure activities meant to be played and enjoyed. RMT skews this into something else. I am actually fine though with RMT games built from the beginning using that model, I consider that a gambling casino type game for people who enjoy that. That becomes a game for people who want to see if they can out do someone else in the real life money game.
To say though it is inevitable for all games ... I don't think so. Not all gamers want to play that type of real life game. A lot of folks like myself like to play video games for the enjoyment of playing and advancing. People also shouldn't label people who do not like RMT as someone who plays 24/7. They could be just like me who has a wife and children who doesn't play every day but when I play I get the satisfaction of obtaining all items in game. You start swiping credit cards in game for items, then you brought me out of the game world into the real life world which I do all day at work etc. I don't care for that in my leisure gaming time. If the MMO genre ever does become so greedy with dollar signs that they think they can force RMT on ALL MMO games then I will not be playing MMOs anymore, it is that simple. Like I said vote with your wallets. I don't support RMT.
Items may be trophies for you, but for many people they are just tools.
I don't enjoy earning the money to buy a hammer, though I might enjoy building something with that hammer.
Why do you insist on telling people how they should find enjoyment and where they should spend their money? If I spend money on a virtual sword, I am not buying it as a trophy, I am buying it as a tool to help me enjoy the game.
So many of these anti RMT arguments are bordering on retarded. I have not seen anyone advocating the purchase of some almighty trophy, or even a maxed out character. They are simply talking about purchasing tools that will let them get to the enjoyable parts of the game fast... rather than grind for hours and hours to get a weapon, I spend a couple bucks, get my weapon, and then get to what I consider to be fun.
If grinding for hours to buy a weapon is enjoyable for you, then by all means I suggest you do it. Just don't expect me to want to do the same.
So you wouldn't have a problem with some one spending say...and extra 100 dollers and being a level 70? (or 80, 90 whatever)...all geared out? It would only be fair. that way they could get right into the action and "start building with there hammers"
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While you are playing the game or climbing the mountain, do you enjoy the act itself, or do you enjoy forcing everyone to do it the way you do?
And, why do you care if he climbs or use the helicopter? If he use the helicopter, will it ruin your slow climbing? Will the path collapse, or ... ?
I smell envy. Nothing more.
Quoted for the truth. Im happy not everyoen has gone and lost thiere minds on theses boards. There are still some sane people left
Quoted for total nonsense.
A game is a game to whoever wants to play it the way s/he likes. You play it your way and stop telling us how to play our game. You have told us your views about how a game is to you, no CC, no RMT. OK, your view taken, that is your view. Not a truth. There is no truth in this issue.
If you want to leave games with RMT, fine. That means 1 less out of millions of gamers. No big deal.
I already stated my view long ago. RMT from developers are acceptable to me, whether I will play that game or any game at all depends on the gameplay. RMT is one of the factors under consideration when assessing a game, not the only. A crap game like DF without RMT is still a crap game. A good game like Eve, with its unique form of payment, or the extra bells and whistles from WoW using RMT (character/server transfer/rename) does not diminish the gameplay of EvE or WoW.
RMT from illegal gold farmers are not acceptable to me.