<sound of classical music big epic opener> Features:
We have taken away all that tiresome grinding and gone straight to your pocket! You don’t play, you pay!
Lord it over the noobs with your credit card mastery; shock with your extortionately priced uber weapon, awe with your gloriously glowing expensive armour, amaze with your rapid (paid for) levelling. Media:
Video 1: using the cash shop.
Video 2: excuses to use on your parents for the bill.
Video 3: excuses to use on your wife for the bill.
Don't give them ideas
You made me laugh.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
It's been fun times discussing RMT lately, but I wanted to bring up another issue just as important and unbalancing. Time. The anti-rmters think it's ok for someone to have more time to play a mmo than someone else and reap those rewards. Yet, the moment someone spends some real cash to catch up to those who have the time advantage, it is suddenly cheating. IMO, time is just as unbalancing a factor in mmo gameplay as rmt supposedly is. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that rmt is more of a balancing factor than an unbalancing factor.
So, disucss. Is the fact that one person has more time to play than another an unbalancing factor in mmos? If so, should time be regulated to make the game fair for everyone? If the anti-rmters are so concerned about fairness in mmos, shouldn't they be just as concerned about fairness in playtime as they are about rmt?
I think it's important to note that I am not advocating restricting time in mmos. I am just saying that to me any argument against rmt on the basis of "fairness" is completely illogical given the inherent unfairness of the time variable.
No, time is not a factor.
And
You can't regulate time. No one can, well except God.
I would just like to take a moment to thank you for your in-depth analysis of the issue. Your arguments are so convincing that I must apologize for my ignorance.
If the only thing it takes to succeed in an mmo is time then its a fail. The primary factor to success should be skill and if rmt shortcuts that its a fail.
giantsquidRunes of Magic CorrespondentMemberPosts: 118
Originally posted by zaxxon23
Originally posted by giantsquid
Originally posted by zaxxon23
It's been fun times discussing RMT lately, but I wanted to bring up another issue just as important and unbalancing. Time. The anti-rmters think it's ok for someone to have more time to play a mmo than someone else and reap those rewards. Yet, the moment someone spends some real cash to catch up to those who have the time advantage, it is suddenly cheating. IMO, time is just as unbalancing a factor in mmo gameplay as rmt supposedly is. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that rmt is more of a balancing factor than an unbalancing factor.
So, disucss. Is the fact that one person has more time to play than another an unbalancing factor in mmos? If so, should time be regulated to make the game fair for everyone? If the anti-rmters are so concerned about fairness in mmos, shouldn't they be just as concerned about fairness in playtime as they are about rmt?
I think it's important to note that I am not advocating restricting time in mmos. I am just saying that to me any argument against rmt on the basis of "fairness" is completely illogical given the inherent unfairness of the time variable.
No, time is not a factor.
And
You can't regulate time. No one can, well except God.
I would just like to take a moment to thank you for your in-depth analysis of the issue. Your arguments are so convincing that I must apologize for my ignorance.
Often the simplest answer is the best. Time is universally known as the Great Equalizer, because in everything in life, every aspect of life, including the web or MMO's, Time is the Great Equalizer, it can't be used as an arbitrary argument. The real issues you want to argue have to do with player perception, desire, and ethics(those feelings you get of unfairness when you see players paying to "get ahead" of you in a game). Everyone tries to argue "time" but all they really talk about are things that are really based off their lives: How long THEY have to play. And they'll never get anywhere because everyone plays at different times and different lenghts of time, not because of time, but because of work, age, where they live, the speed of their PC, and the like. Not time.
IMO there is no comparison...The player that is putting in the time is working for what he is getting.....the player that uses RMT is buying most of what he gets.......It would be like two workers doing the same job at the same company...Employye A works 40 hours a week and earns X dollars.....Would it be fair if Employee B worked 10 hours, slipped the boss a 10 dollar bill, and got the same paycheck/rewards as the employee that is working harder and longer??
giantsquidRunes of Magic CorrespondentMemberPosts: 118
Originally posted by Theocritus
IMO there is no comparison...The player that is putting in the time is working for what he is getting.....the player that uses RMT is buying most of what he gets.......It would be like two workers doing the same job at the same company...Employye A works 40 hours a week and earns X dollars.....Would it be fair if Employee B worked 10 hours, slipped the boss a 10 dollar bill, and got the same paycheck/rewards as the employee that is working harder and longer??
Interesting, but wouldn't it depend on what you are getting from the game? In your problem, I agree, I don't think it's very fair.
But with the game what you are getting out of it is Fun, right? And how do you judge if everyone is getting 40$ worth of fun out of the same things they do in game?
I think players should only be able to buy the same items that other players can earn through time. The only advantage they are truly paying for is saving them the time it would take to grind for it. This balances things between the players with no lives that can spend 10 hours a day, and the players who have school, work, and family and can't give that much time. If I've got the same gear you have, what should it really matter to you how I got it? Worry about yourself, play the game the way that gives you the most enjoyment, and let everyone else do the same thing.
There is more than this difference. You fundamentally change the game, and make the effort involved to get the same item worthless.
In other words, I can ONLY do a quest for an item, or grind for an Item. OR I can pay five bucks for it. I have five bucks. This means the quest is now worthless to me, and it would feel stupid doing it when I can pay five bucks. Now I don't want to play.
That is completely different from a game where EVERYONE must work for the item, no exceptions. That's a game I want to play.
This is the hardest part for people to understand:
I"m not worried YOU can buy items, I don't want the game to let ME buy items. Telling me "just don't buy it' doesn't work.
so what if one person can buy the item? How does that make the Quest to get it worthless? It doesn't. You supposed to be doing the Quest for FUN in the 1st place. And after you do the quest you can simply redeem it for real $$$.
Because the Quest is now pointless, and that takes away the fun. Why would I bother doing the quest if I can just click and pay a dollar? It's not like I don't have a dollar.
So doing the quest would be just intentionally gimping yourself, or for those people who are so broke they don't have a dollar. And again, I have a dollar.
So now that hte quest has been reduced to a dollar, might as well quit the game.
The quest is fun for me, because I can't pay a dollar to avoid it.
But do you have 50 dollars? Are you going to pay a dollar for each quest? 100? At some point, you'll be able to decide for yourself which quests you want to do for yourself, and which are not worth your time. Personal choice and responsibility for your own actions... what amazing concepts.
Well, yes I do have 50 bucks or 100, adn I could spend them on a quest if I wanted to. That's why if you CAN do that, the game becomes no fun for me. Click, spend a thousand bucks, I"m max level, max gear, game over. That's not much fun. Why would I NOT do it if I can? Just to gimp myself and play the content and make it go slower than the game allows for? I don't hit myself in the leg with a baseball bat if I"m racing a slow person to make it more challenging.
How does that make me not responsible for my actions?
Well, yes I do have 50 bucks or 100, adn I could spend them on a quest if I wanted to. That's why if you CAN do that, the game becomes no fun for me. Click, spend a thousand bucks, I"m max level, max gear, game over. That's not much fun. Why would I NOT do it if I can? Just to gimp myself and play the content and make it go slower than the game allows for? I don't hit myself in the leg with a baseball bat if I"m racing a slow person to make it more challenging.
How does that make me not responsible for my actions?
I'm not sure that anyone said it makes you not responsible for your actions - just lacking in willpower, self-control, and knowledge of your own identity as being internal rather than external to you. That's much different than saying that someone lacks responsibility for his actions.
IMO there is no comparison...The player that is putting in the time is working for what he is getting.....the player that uses RMT is buying most of what he gets.......It would be like two workers doing the same job at the same company...Employye A works 40 hours a week and earns X dollars.....Would it be fair if Employee B worked 10 hours, slipped the boss a 10 dollar bill, and got the same paycheck/rewards as the employee that is working harder and longer??
Interesting, but wouldn't it depend on what you are getting from the game? In your problem, I agree, I don't think it's very fair.
But with the game what you are getting out of it is Fun, right? And how do you judge if everyone is getting 40$ worth of fun out of the same things they do in game?
You can't buy gameplay. No matter what you do, if you do not have time to play a game, no one can play it for you and give you the enjoyment. Games are meant to be played for enjoyment. Buying digital items, levels, gold by swiping your credit card is not playing a game. If you are not playing the game then you are wasting your money on purchasing the game. Why not join a soccer, football, basketball, etc team and instead of playing and enjoying the sport just buy the trophy.
giantsquidRunes of Magic CorrespondentMemberPosts: 118
Originally posted by qombi
Originally posted by giantsquid
Originally posted by Theocritus
IMO there is no comparison...The player that is putting in the time is working for what he is getting.....the player that uses RMT is buying most of what he gets.......It would be like two workers doing the same job at the same company...Employye A works 40 hours a week and earns X dollars.....Would it be fair if Employee B worked 10 hours, slipped the boss a 10 dollar bill, and got the same paycheck/rewards as the employee that is working harder and longer??
Interesting, but wouldn't it depend on what you are getting from the game? In your problem, I agree, I don't think it's very fair.
But with the game what you are getting out of it is Fun, right? And how do you judge if everyone is getting 40$ worth of fun out of the same things they do in game?
You can't buy gameplay. No matter what you do, if you do not have time to play a game, no one can play it for you and give you the enjoyment. Games are meant to be played for enjoyment. Buying digital items, levels, gold by swiping your credit card is not playing a game. If you are not playing the game then you are wasting your money on purchasing the game. Why not join a soccer, football, basketball, etc team and instead of playing and enjoying the sport just buy the trophy.
Sure you can. People have fun in all manners of being. someone could play my game, and I could be insanely happy, it depends on how you have fun. My one friend has fun cheating, rules like TOS's keep ppl from doing it, and making it "bannable" but there are ppl who enjoy it. You can't say how another person has fun. Sure games are meant for fun but it still doesn't mean that people aren't having fun swiping cards. You know how many girls out in the world get ecstatic, over swiping credit cards lol. That's fun for them. I gaurantee that there are ppl paying for these games, some have more fun than the free players, some have less. Some people do enjoy stealing a trophy to say they won it instead of playing the game. To them it was more of a thrill and more fun, than to try to use their skills to win it.
So you see how time can't be used in the argument? There are too many variables. Too many unkown facts. How exactly does one person "have" fun, as opposed to another person.
And how much value does a person put into an item that gives EXP bonus, as opposed to a crafting, or say-fishing bonus?
And yes you can find many ppl who have started playing on the same day, but that'd be really hard to try to figure out and regulate, plus everyday there are new players. What if you played for 1 week at 4 hrs a day, and I just started yesterday and played for 5 hours? How do you determine "fairness"?
The problem with this argument is ppl all have a sense of fairness, and this sense is engrained in our society, which helps us live and understand people and situations around us. We can relate because we have similar sets of morals and ethics.
But, the reality of it is that even if you "feel" it is unfair that you played for 10 hours over 1 week, while someone else only played half that time, but is twice as powerful as you, it is not legitimate.
How are ppl age 20+ supposed to feel that have jobs limiting their time online? can they rightfully be mad at younger players without jobs who play more often? Can I be mad at someone who has played for 1 year while I just started playing yesterday?
Everyone has different goals in a game, but it seems to me the argument always points out the toughness of a player, so I'm assuming ppl arguing this point are mainly those that strive to be king of server? What about players who have different in-game goals?
And yes you can find many ppl who have started playing on the same day, but that'd be really hard to try to figure out and regulate, plus everyday there are new players. What if you played for 1 week at 4 hrs a day, and I just started yesterday and played for 5 hours? How do you determine "fairness"?
Simple. I measure it by content. It's "fair" if you kill 1,000 mobs and you get 1,000 xp, and I kill 1,000 mobs and I get 1,000 xp. It's fair if you do quest X adn get 500 xp, and I do quest X and get 500 xp.
Same content = same reward in xp or gear.
That's why I would say it's totally fair if I play 5 hours and you play 20 hours, that yoou have more xp and more items than me, because you did more content than me.
I will get teh same xp and same items as you, when I do the same content you did.
To use a simple example, you will get a dollar when you do one lap around the track. What if I run around the track all day, adn do 100 laps, and you run around the track once? You can do the other 99 laps whenever you want, and you will get the other 99 dollars. We both get the same thing, for doing the same thing, regardless of WHEN we do it.
giantsquidRunes of Magic CorrespondentMemberPosts: 118
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by giantsquid
And yes you can find many ppl who have started playing on the same day, but that'd be really hard to try to figure out and regulate, plus everyday there are new players. What if you played for 1 week at 4 hrs a day, and I just started yesterday and played for 5 hours? How do you determine "fairness"?
Simple. I measure it by content. It's "fair" if you kill 1,000 mobs and you get 1,000 xp, and I kill 1,000 mobs and I get 1,000 xp. It's fair if you do quest X adn get 500 xp, and I do quest X and get 500 xp.
Same content = same reward in xp or gear.
That's why I would say it's totally fair if I play 5 hours and you play 20 hours, that yoou have more xp and more items than me, because you did more content than me.
I will get teh same xp and same items as you, when I do the same content you did.
To use a simple example, you will get a dollar when you do one lap around the track. What if I run around the track all day, adn do 100 laps, and you run around the track once? You can do the other 99 laps whenever you want, and you will get the other 99 dollars. We both get the same thing, for doing the same thing, regardless of WHEN we do it.
You want to argue to win, why not think about what you argue? Do you really want a game, given what you just said about how you view fairness? Everytime you argue my points, you don't take into consideration what I do, and that's the game, so while you fabricate a argument that paints you in a good light and makes you "right" it also changes what your last statement was.
Every argument makes you look like you want the game one way, but then yer next argument changes what a person, reading yer argument, thinks you want from the game.
This current argument, I'd say if everyone is exposed to the same content, on the same playing field, that's fine
Okay, everything you say about fairness this time, now read what you wrote, then go back up and read what I wrote about:
How do you know if a person did all that? what if they had a party power lvl them? what if they had a high lvl just give them all the quest rewards? What if they're a player that's played a year and has a bunch of Twinks?
Then you can't really know if that powerful person is being unfair, by using the item shop, or not. You don't really know if they used that item mall AT ALL.
You can't keep track of even something as simple as do 1 quest, get 1 reward, because there's too much of that content, and second, I know that is not the only content because that would be very dry and get boring fast. I want dynamic, and situational gameplay. Gameplay that feels alive like what WoW, Vanguard, EQ2, and RoM has.
What about the auction house. What if I just mined for 8 hrs, sold my ore, and bought those quest rewards from people selling them?
It's been fun times discussing RMT lately, but I wanted to bring up another issue just as important and unbalancing. Time. The anti-rmters think it's ok for someone to have more time to play a mmo than someone else and reap those rewards. Yet, the moment someone spends some real cash to catch up to those who have the time advantage, it is suddenly cheating. IMO, time is just as unbalancing a factor in mmo gameplay as rmt supposedly is. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that rmt is more of a balancing factor than an unbalancing factor.
So, disucss. Is the fact that one person has more time to play than another an unbalancing factor in mmos? If so, should time be regulated to make the game fair for everyone? If the anti-rmters are so concerned about fairness in mmos, shouldn't they be just as concerned about fairness in playtime as they are about rmt?
I think it's important to note that I am not advocating restricting time in mmos. I am just saying that to me any argument against rmt on the basis of "fairness" is completely illogical given the inherent unfairness of the time variable.
Ok Zaxxon time to comment
first of all,you are saying "To catch up",well does the RMT stop after you catch up? and "WHO" are you catching up to?
I am one that never said TIME was unfair as it obviously is,i agree on that,i think MOST would.That is not a fault or reason to EXPLOIT a game,because TIME was part of the design,EXPLOITS are not and yes they are VERY illegal.
I think what Zaxxon is basically doing is called a double standard,by thinking two wrongs make a right,simply put ...NO it does not.
Like i said i agree on the "TIME" issue,i wish games would show some better developing and creation skills to make TIME a non factor,but they are basically lazy.Personally i feel like "TIME" could be a non factor EASILY,it shows just how inept most developers really are.This also touches on why i have NEVER liked PVP in a MMO,because the TIME factor is huge.What good is PVP when it is almost NEVER a fair fight?when we play sports we ALWAYS have rules,because MOST people believe in "FAIR",we just need more to realize it and gaming would be a lot more fun.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I think players should only be able to buy the same items that other players can earn through time. The only advantage they are truly paying for is saving them the time it would take to grind for it. This balances things between the players with no lives that can spend 10 hours a day, and the players who have school, work, and family and can't give that much time. If I've got the same gear you have, what should it really matter to you how I got it? Worry about yourself, play the game the way that gives you the most enjoyment, and let everyone else do the same thing.
There is more than this difference. You fundamentally change the game, and make the effort involved to get the same item worthless.
In other words, I can ONLY do a quest for an item, or grind for an Item. OR I can pay five bucks for it. I have five bucks. This means the quest is now worthless to me, and it would feel stupid doing it when I can pay five bucks. Now I don't want to play.
That is completely different from a game where EVERYONE must work for the item, no exceptions. That's a game I want to play.
This is the hardest part for people to understand:
I"m not worried YOU can buy items, I don't want the game to let ME buy items. Telling me "just don't buy it' doesn't work.
so what if one person can buy the item? How does that make the Quest to get it worthless? It doesn't. You supposed to be doing the Quest for FUN in the 1st place. And after you do the quest you can simply redeem it for real $$$.
Because the Quest is now pointless, and that takes away the fun. Why would I bother doing the quest if I can just click and pay a dollar? It's not like I don't have a dollar.
So doing the quest would be just intentionally gimping yourself, or for those people who are so broke they don't have a dollar. And again, I have a dollar.
So now that hte quest has been reduced to a dollar, might as well quit the game.
The quest is fun for me, only if I can't pay a dollar to avoid it. Why do people play F2P games and never purchase items? It's only because they can't afford to pay for items, or pay for a P2P game. I'm not that broke.
I've played F2p games, never purchased anything, and I had plenty of money. It's because I had FUN doing what I was doing already.
Same goes for EVE. Sure I could pay someone $30 or whatever for ingame money. It's legal. Devs allow it when you make this trade with another player. I have the money easy.
But i dont- because I enjoy the *challenge* of figuring out how to earn ingame money on my own.
All because a fixed amount was attached to your Quest doesnt make it worthless one bit. All this time- for any MMO you play, I promise you people are already buying characters that completed that same quest you are proud of
So by your own logic- all of the quests you have done in any MMO are worthless. See where this is going....
Btw, quests in most MMOs suck anyway and mean nothing. The only thing that should have meaning is the fun you have when you play the game. Because it's all just pixels
IMO there is no comparison...The player that is putting in the time is working for what he is getting.....the player that uses RMT is buying most of what he gets.......It would be like two workers doing the same job at the same company...Employye A works 40 hours a week and earns X dollars.....Would it be fair if Employee B worked 10 hours, slipped the boss a 10 dollar bill, and got the same paycheck/rewards as the employee that is working harder and longer??
Scary when one uses work as an example to make their point about a game!?!
IMO there is no comparison...The player that is putting in the time is working for what he is getting.....the player that uses RMT is buying most of what he gets.......It would be like two workers doing the same job at the same company...Employye A works 40 hours a week and earns X dollars.....Would it be fair if Employee B worked 10 hours, slipped the boss a 10 dollar bill, and got the same paycheck/rewards as the employee that is working harder and longer??
Scary when one uses work as an example to make their point about a game!?!
How about person A doesn't have a hammer, but needs it for work, so he has to do some extra work to begin with to earn his hammer, and then he can finally start working. However person B buys a hammer, and gets right down to business! What was the utlimate purpose in their endeaver? Was it earning the hammer? No, it was getting to work, and they both did it, they just got to it in different ways.
IMO there is no comparison...The player that is putting in the time is working for what he is getting.....the player that uses RMT is buying most of what he gets.......It would be like two workers doing the same job at the same company...Employye A works 40 hours a week and earns X dollars.....Would it be fair if Employee B worked 10 hours, slipped the boss a 10 dollar bill, and got the same paycheck/rewards as the employee that is working harder and longer??
Scary when one uses work as an example to make their point about a game!?!
Yes but the scariest is that he needs to do it to make people understand that RMT and F2P games are Bad for the players. Dont you think. There are way to many people who lobby that RMT is a mush better solution then the p2p that is the standard in the west right now. Entropida universe is what we have to look forward to, if more people think that Chash games are like the second coming in the MMO market.... So we need to stop them here and now Kiddyno071.
let me quote one of my favorite movis: This is where we hold them! This is where we fight! This is where they die!
IMO there is no comparison...The player that is putting in the time is working for what he is getting.....the player that uses RMT is buying most of what he gets.......It would be like two workers doing the same job at the same company...Employye A works 40 hours a week and earns X dollars.....Would it be fair if Employee B worked 10 hours, slipped the boss a 10 dollar bill, and got the same paycheck/rewards as the employee that is working harder and longer??
Scary when one uses work as an example to make their point about a game!?!
Yes but the scariest is that he needs to do it to make people understand that RMT and F2P games are Bad for the players. Dont you think. There are way to many people who lobby that RMT is a mush better solution then the p2p that is the standard in the west right now. Entropida universe is what we have to look forward to, if more people think that Chash games are like the second coming in the MMO market.... So we need to stop them here and now Kiddyno071.
let me quote one of my favorite movis: This is where we hold them! This is where we fight! This is where they die!
While I may not go to the same extremes as you... I have no problem with p2p games and don't care for F2P and micro based games. If the market shifts from p2p I doubt that I will move with it... because in the long run I think you pay more in these games, IMO.
However, if someone wants to spend their real money to keep up with the Jones then all the power to them. After all we are talking about games people should be able to spend their money on their entertainment as they see fit and within the limits of the law of course.
giantsquidRunes of Magic CorrespondentMemberPosts: 118
Players against RMT seem to draw a direct one-to-one comparison to explain "fairness" first off, this fairness in MMO's is a myth.
MMO's by design are pretty selfish games. Someone said something about "simply" finding it fair that player a did this quest, then player b regardless of when they started, but your arguments against RMT are about fairness of how much time you put into the game and what you got out of it, right?
What if player A, wasn't as skilled as player B? What if it took him 10 hours to do a quest and get the reward, while player B did it in 20 minutes?
There are thousands of quests in games like Runes of Magic, and WoW, and then there are raids, dungeons, instances.
It's illogical to try to draw an algorithm of fairness that way. I dare say it'd be impossible, because just when you thought you had everything covered, someone else would come along that completed the quest in 11 hrs and 10 minutes, but died 2 times in the attempt which cost him so much gold to repair, setting him back compared to the others.
I applaud anti-RMT'ers, for their tenacity but while you argue "Fairness" of it, theres thousands of people gold farming and scamming people in Pay to Play games, selling gold for real money everyday. If you want to fight something you don't find fair, you should put your energy into fighting a real injustice.
IMO there is no comparison...The player that is putting in the time is working for what he is getting.....the player that uses RMT is buying most of what he gets.......It would be like two workers doing the same job at the same company...Employye A works 40 hours a week and earns X dollars.....Would it be fair if Employee B worked 10 hours, slipped the boss a 10 dollar bill, and got the same paycheck/rewards as the employee that is working harder and longer??
Scary when one uses work as an example to make their point about a game!?!
How about person A doesn't have a hammer, but needs it for work, so he has to do some extra work to begin with to earn his hammer, and then he can finally start working. However person B buys a hammer, and gets right down to business! What was the utlimate purpose in their endeaver? Was it earning the hammer? No, it was getting to work, and they both did it, they just got to it in different ways.
That is the crux of the biscuit. The P2P player wants everyone to do it the same way, which is fair. "Just got it in different ways" doesn't equate to fairness. I worked and made 50 bucks, you wrote a bad check and got 50 bucks. WE just got the money in different ways.
The F2P players likes having some people on the server as peasants (those that don't pay) and some as the overlords (those that pay).
The reason this is "fair" is the ones that don't buy items at the cash shop get to play for free. They are willing to trade being a second class player in the game, for a free ride.
The P2P players dont' want any free loaders. You're trading a fair game, for access for free. In other words the people playing for free can't really complain taht the game is not fair, since they aren't paying for anything.
In Guild Wars people can buy all their powers if they want or earn it through PVE. So, you kind of have a minor P2P vs F2P thing going. Did I think it was fair a guy could buy their powers? Sure I did. Mind you- I unlocked mine through PVE and eventually the rest in PVP when they added it
See, when the game actually focuses on a thing called 'Player skill' then allowing people to buy things for their character means nothing....
In Guild Wars people can buy all their powers if they want or earn it through PVE. So, you kind of have a minor P2P vs F2P thing going. Did I think it was fair a guy could buy their powers? Sure I did. Mind you- I unlocked mine through PVE and eventually the rest in PVP when they added it See, when the game actually focuses on a thing called 'Player skill' then allowing people to buy things for their character means nothing....
I think fairness is in the eye of the beholder. The important thing is what a player *CAN* do in a game. Technology can only restrict behavior so far.
That is the crux of the biscuit. The P2P player wants everyone to do it the same way, which is fair. "Just got it in different ways" doesn't equate to fairness. I worked and made 50 bucks, you wrote a bad check and got 50 bucks. WE just got the money in different ways. The F2P players likes having some people on the server as peasants (those that don't pay) and some as the overlords (those that pay). The reason this is "fair" is the ones that don't buy items at the cash shop get to play for free. They are willing to trade being a second class player in the game, for a free ride. The P2P players dont' want any free loaders. You're trading a fair game, for access for free. In other words the people playing for free can't really complain taht the game is not fair, since they aren't paying for anything.
I didn't know that biscuts had a crux! J/K But seriously I don't think its about being "fair", for me, though I think you made a very good point.
Comments
Don't give them ideas
You made me laugh.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
No, time is not a factor.
And
You can't regulate time. No one can, well except God.
I would just like to take a moment to thank you for your in-depth analysis of the issue. Your arguments are so convincing that I must apologize for my ignorance.
If the only thing it takes to succeed in an mmo is time then its a fail. The primary factor to success should be skill and if rmt shortcuts that its a fail.
No, time is not a factor.
And
You can't regulate time. No one can, well except God.
I would just like to take a moment to thank you for your in-depth analysis of the issue. Your arguments are so convincing that I must apologize for my ignorance.
Often the simplest answer is the best. Time is universally known as the Great Equalizer, because in everything in life, every aspect of life, including the web or MMO's, Time is the Great Equalizer, it can't be used as an arbitrary argument. The real issues you want to argue have to do with player perception, desire, and ethics(those feelings you get of unfairness when you see players paying to "get ahead" of you in a game). Everyone tries to argue "time" but all they really talk about are things that are really based off their lives: How long THEY have to play. And they'll never get anywhere because everyone plays at different times and different lenghts of time, not because of time, but because of work, age, where they live, the speed of their PC, and the like. Not time.
Just One MMOre
A very ionteresting proposition ianubisi and one I don't think I would have even entertained. Kudos!
IMO there is no comparison...The player that is putting in the time is working for what he is getting.....the player that uses RMT is buying most of what he gets.......It would be like two workers doing the same job at the same company...Employye A works 40 hours a week and earns X dollars.....Would it be fair if Employee B worked 10 hours, slipped the boss a 10 dollar bill, and got the same paycheck/rewards as the employee that is working harder and longer??
Interesting, but wouldn't it depend on what you are getting from the game? In your problem, I agree, I don't think it's very fair.
But with the game what you are getting out of it is Fun, right? And how do you judge if everyone is getting 40$ worth of fun out of the same things they do in game?
Just One MMOre
There is more than this difference. You fundamentally change the game, and make the effort involved to get the same item worthless.
In other words, I can ONLY do a quest for an item, or grind for an Item. OR I can pay five bucks for it. I have five bucks. This means the quest is now worthless to me, and it would feel stupid doing it when I can pay five bucks. Now I don't want to play.
That is completely different from a game where EVERYONE must work for the item, no exceptions. That's a game I want to play.
This is the hardest part for people to understand:
I"m not worried YOU can buy items, I don't want the game to let ME buy items. Telling me "just don't buy it' doesn't work.
so what if one person can buy the item? How does that make the Quest to get it worthless? It doesn't. You supposed to be doing the Quest for FUN in the 1st place. And after you do the quest you can simply redeem it for real $$$.
Because the Quest is now pointless, and that takes away the fun. Why would I bother doing the quest if I can just click and pay a dollar? It's not like I don't have a dollar.
So doing the quest would be just intentionally gimping yourself, or for those people who are so broke they don't have a dollar. And again, I have a dollar.
So now that hte quest has been reduced to a dollar, might as well quit the game.
The quest is fun for me, because I can't pay a dollar to avoid it.
But do you have 50 dollars? Are you going to pay a dollar for each quest? 100? At some point, you'll be able to decide for yourself which quests you want to do for yourself, and which are not worth your time. Personal choice and responsibility for your own actions... what amazing concepts.
Well, yes I do have 50 bucks or 100, adn I could spend them on a quest if I wanted to. That's why if you CAN do that, the game becomes no fun for me. Click, spend a thousand bucks, I"m max level, max gear, game over. That's not much fun. Why would I NOT do it if I can? Just to gimp myself and play the content and make it go slower than the game allows for? I don't hit myself in the leg with a baseball bat if I"m racing a slow person to make it more challenging.
How does that make me not responsible for my actions?
Well, yes I do have 50 bucks or 100, adn I could spend them on a quest if I wanted to. That's why if you CAN do that, the game becomes no fun for me. Click, spend a thousand bucks, I"m max level, max gear, game over. That's not much fun. Why would I NOT do it if I can? Just to gimp myself and play the content and make it go slower than the game allows for? I don't hit myself in the leg with a baseball bat if I"m racing a slow person to make it more challenging.
How does that make me not responsible for my actions?
I'm not sure that anyone said it makes you not responsible for your actions - just lacking in willpower, self-control, and knowledge of your own identity as being internal rather than external to you. That's much different than saying that someone lacks responsibility for his actions.
Interesting, but wouldn't it depend on what you are getting from the game? In your problem, I agree, I don't think it's very fair.
But with the game what you are getting out of it is Fun, right? And how do you judge if everyone is getting 40$ worth of fun out of the same things they do in game?
You can't buy gameplay. No matter what you do, if you do not have time to play a game, no one can play it for you and give you the enjoyment. Games are meant to be played for enjoyment. Buying digital items, levels, gold by swiping your credit card is not playing a game. If you are not playing the game then you are wasting your money on purchasing the game. Why not join a soccer, football, basketball, etc team and instead of playing and enjoying the sport just buy the trophy.
Interesting, but wouldn't it depend on what you are getting from the game? In your problem, I agree, I don't think it's very fair.
But with the game what you are getting out of it is Fun, right? And how do you judge if everyone is getting 40$ worth of fun out of the same things they do in game?
You can't buy gameplay. No matter what you do, if you do not have time to play a game, no one can play it for you and give you the enjoyment. Games are meant to be played for enjoyment. Buying digital items, levels, gold by swiping your credit card is not playing a game. If you are not playing the game then you are wasting your money on purchasing the game. Why not join a soccer, football, basketball, etc team and instead of playing and enjoying the sport just buy the trophy.
Sure you can. People have fun in all manners of being. someone could play my game, and I could be insanely happy, it depends on how you have fun. My one friend has fun cheating, rules like TOS's keep ppl from doing it, and making it "bannable" but there are ppl who enjoy it. You can't say how another person has fun. Sure games are meant for fun but it still doesn't mean that people aren't having fun swiping cards. You know how many girls out in the world get ecstatic, over swiping credit cards
lol. That's fun for them. I gaurantee that there are ppl paying for these games, some have more fun than the free players, some have less. Some people do enjoy stealing a trophy to say they won it instead of playing the game. To them it was more of a thrill and more fun, than to try to use their skills to win it.
So you see how time can't be used in the argument? There are too many variables. Too many unkown facts. How exactly does one person "have" fun, as opposed to another person.
And how much value does a person put into an item that gives EXP bonus, as opposed to a crafting, or say-fishing bonus?
And yes you can find many ppl who have started playing on the same day, but that'd be really hard to try to figure out and regulate, plus everyday there are new players. What if you played for 1 week at 4 hrs a day, and I just started yesterday and played for 5 hours? How do you determine "fairness"?
The problem with this argument is ppl all have a sense of fairness, and this sense is engrained in our society, which helps us live and understand people and situations around us. We can relate because we have similar sets of morals and ethics.
But, the reality of it is that even if you "feel" it is unfair that you played for 10 hours over 1 week, while someone else only played half that time, but is twice as powerful as you, it is not legitimate.
How are ppl age 20+ supposed to feel that have jobs limiting their time online? can they rightfully be mad at younger players without jobs who play more often? Can I be mad at someone who has played for 1 year while I just started playing yesterday?
Everyone has different goals in a game, but it seems to me the argument always points out the toughness of a player, so I'm assuming ppl arguing this point are mainly those that strive to be king of server? What about players who have different in-game goals?
Just One MMOre
Simple. I measure it by content. It's "fair" if you kill 1,000 mobs and you get 1,000 xp, and I kill 1,000 mobs and I get 1,000 xp. It's fair if you do quest X adn get 500 xp, and I do quest X and get 500 xp.
Same content = same reward in xp or gear.
That's why I would say it's totally fair if I play 5 hours and you play 20 hours, that yoou have more xp and more items than me, because you did more content than me.
I will get teh same xp and same items as you, when I do the same content you did.
To use a simple example, you will get a dollar when you do one lap around the track. What if I run around the track all day, adn do 100 laps, and you run around the track once? You can do the other 99 laps whenever you want, and you will get the other 99 dollars. We both get the same thing, for doing the same thing, regardless of WHEN we do it.
Simple. I measure it by content. It's "fair" if you kill 1,000 mobs and you get 1,000 xp, and I kill 1,000 mobs and I get 1,000 xp. It's fair if you do quest X adn get 500 xp, and I do quest X and get 500 xp.
Same content = same reward in xp or gear.
That's why I would say it's totally fair if I play 5 hours and you play 20 hours, that yoou have more xp and more items than me, because you did more content than me.
I will get teh same xp and same items as you, when I do the same content you did.
To use a simple example, you will get a dollar when you do one lap around the track. What if I run around the track all day, adn do 100 laps, and you run around the track once? You can do the other 99 laps whenever you want, and you will get the other 99 dollars. We both get the same thing, for doing the same thing, regardless of WHEN we do it.
You want to argue to win, why not think about what you argue? Do you really want a game, given what you just said about how you view fairness? Everytime you argue my points, you don't take into consideration what I do, and that's the game, so while you fabricate a argument that paints you in a good light and makes you "right" it also changes what your last statement was.
Every argument makes you look like you want the game one way, but then yer next argument changes what a person, reading yer argument, thinks you want from the game.
This current argument, I'd say if everyone is exposed to the same content, on the same playing field, that's fine
Okay, everything you say about fairness this time, now read what you wrote, then go back up and read what I wrote about:
How do you know if a person did all that? what if they had a party power lvl them? what if they had a high lvl just give them all the quest rewards? What if they're a player that's played a year and has a bunch of Twinks?
Then you can't really know if that powerful person is being unfair, by using the item shop, or not. You don't really know if they used that item mall AT ALL.
You can't keep track of even something as simple as do 1 quest, get 1 reward, because there's too much of that content, and second, I know that is not the only content because that would be very dry and get boring fast. I want dynamic, and situational gameplay. Gameplay that feels alive like what WoW, Vanguard, EQ2, and RoM has.
What about the auction house. What if I just mined for 8 hrs, sold my ore, and bought those quest rewards from people selling them?
Just One MMOre
Ok Zaxxon time to comment
first of all,you are saying "To catch up",well does the RMT stop after you catch up? and "WHO" are you catching up to?
I am one that never said TIME was unfair as it obviously is,i agree on that,i think MOST would.That is not a fault or reason to EXPLOIT a game,because TIME was part of the design,EXPLOITS are not and yes they are VERY illegal.
I think what Zaxxon is basically doing is called a double standard,by thinking two wrongs make a right,simply put ...NO it does not.
Like i said i agree on the "TIME" issue,i wish games would show some better developing and creation skills to make TIME a non factor,but they are basically lazy.Personally i feel like "TIME" could be a non factor EASILY,it shows just how inept most developers really are.This also touches on why i have NEVER liked PVP in a MMO,because the TIME factor is huge.What good is PVP when it is almost NEVER a fair fight?when we play sports we ALWAYS have rules,because MOST people believe in "FAIR",we just need more to realize it and gaming would be a lot more fun.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
There is more than this difference. You fundamentally change the game, and make the effort involved to get the same item worthless.
In other words, I can ONLY do a quest for an item, or grind for an Item. OR I can pay five bucks for it. I have five bucks. This means the quest is now worthless to me, and it would feel stupid doing it when I can pay five bucks. Now I don't want to play.
That is completely different from a game where EVERYONE must work for the item, no exceptions. That's a game I want to play.
This is the hardest part for people to understand:
I"m not worried YOU can buy items, I don't want the game to let ME buy items. Telling me "just don't buy it' doesn't work.
so what if one person can buy the item? How does that make the Quest to get it worthless? It doesn't. You supposed to be doing the Quest for FUN in the 1st place. And after you do the quest you can simply redeem it for real $$$.
Because the Quest is now pointless, and that takes away the fun. Why would I bother doing the quest if I can just click and pay a dollar? It's not like I don't have a dollar.
So doing the quest would be just intentionally gimping yourself, or for those people who are so broke they don't have a dollar. And again, I have a dollar.
So now that hte quest has been reduced to a dollar, might as well quit the game.
The quest is fun for me, only if I can't pay a dollar to avoid it. Why do people play F2P games and never purchase items? It's only because they can't afford to pay for items, or pay for a P2P game. I'm not that broke.
I've played F2p games, never purchased anything, and I had plenty of money. It's because I had FUN doing what I was doing already.
Same goes for EVE. Sure I could pay someone $30 or whatever for ingame money. It's legal. Devs allow it when you make this trade with another player. I have the money easy.
But i dont- because I enjoy the *challenge* of figuring out how to earn ingame money on my own.
All because a fixed amount was attached to your Quest doesnt make it worthless one bit. All this time- for any MMO you play, I promise you people are already buying characters that completed that same quest you are proud of
So by your own logic- all of the quests you have done in any MMO are worthless. See where this is going....
Btw, quests in most MMOs suck anyway and mean nothing. The only thing that should have meaning is the fun you have when you play the game. Because it's all just pixels
Scary when one uses work as an example to make their point about a game!?!
Scary when one uses work as an example to make their point about a game!?!
How about person A doesn't have a hammer, but needs it for work, so he has to do some extra work to begin with to earn his hammer, and then he can finally start working. However person B buys a hammer, and gets right down to business! What was the utlimate purpose in their endeaver? Was it earning the hammer? No, it was getting to work, and they both did it, they just got to it in different ways.
Scary when one uses work as an example to make their point about a game!?!
Yes but the scariest is that he needs to do it to make people understand that RMT and F2P games are Bad for the players. Dont you think. There are way to many people who lobby that RMT is a mush better solution then the p2p that is the standard in the west right now. Entropida universe is what we have to look forward to, if more people think that Chash games are like the second coming in the MMO market.... So we need to stop them here and now Kiddyno071.
let me quote one of my favorite movis: This is where we hold them! This is where we fight! This is where they die!
Scary when one uses work as an example to make their point about a game!?!
Yes but the scariest is that he needs to do it to make people understand that RMT and F2P games are Bad for the players. Dont you think. There are way to many people who lobby that RMT is a mush better solution then the p2p that is the standard in the west right now. Entropida universe is what we have to look forward to, if more people think that Chash games are like the second coming in the MMO market.... So we need to stop them here and now Kiddyno071.
let me quote one of my favorite movis: This is where we hold them! This is where we fight! This is where they die!
While I may not go to the same extremes as you... I have no problem with p2p games and don't care for F2P and micro based games. If the market shifts from p2p I doubt that I will move with it... because in the long run I think you pay more in these games, IMO.
However, if someone wants to spend their real money to keep up with the Jones then all the power to them. After all we are talking about games people should be able to spend their money on their entertainment as they see fit and within the limits of the law of course.
Players against RMT seem to draw a direct one-to-one comparison to explain "fairness" first off, this fairness in MMO's is a myth.
MMO's by design are pretty selfish games. Someone said something about "simply" finding it fair that player a did this quest, then player b regardless of when they started, but your arguments against RMT are about fairness of how much time you put into the game and what you got out of it, right?
What if player A, wasn't as skilled as player B? What if it took him 10 hours to do a quest and get the reward, while player B did it in 20 minutes?
There are thousands of quests in games like Runes of Magic, and WoW, and then there are raids, dungeons, instances.
It's illogical to try to draw an algorithm of fairness that way. I dare say it'd be impossible, because just when you thought you had everything covered, someone else would come along that completed the quest in 11 hrs and 10 minutes, but died 2 times in the attempt which cost him so much gold to repair, setting him back compared to the others.
I applaud anti-RMT'ers, for their tenacity but while you argue "Fairness" of it, theres thousands of people gold farming and scamming people in Pay to Play games, selling gold for real money everyday. If you want to fight something you don't find fair, you should put your energy into fighting a real injustice.
Just One MMOre
Scary when one uses work as an example to make their point about a game!?!
How about person A doesn't have a hammer, but needs it for work, so he has to do some extra work to begin with to earn his hammer, and then he can finally start working. However person B buys a hammer, and gets right down to business! What was the utlimate purpose in their endeaver? Was it earning the hammer? No, it was getting to work, and they both did it, they just got to it in different ways.
That is the crux of the biscuit. The P2P player wants everyone to do it the same way, which is fair. "Just got it in different ways" doesn't equate to fairness. I worked and made 50 bucks, you wrote a bad check and got 50 bucks. WE just got the money in different ways.
The F2P players likes having some people on the server as peasants (those that don't pay) and some as the overlords (those that pay).
The reason this is "fair" is the ones that don't buy items at the cash shop get to play for free. They are willing to trade being a second class player in the game, for a free ride.
The P2P players dont' want any free loaders. You're trading a fair game, for access for free. In other words the people playing for free can't really complain taht the game is not fair, since they aren't paying for anything.
In Guild Wars people can buy all their powers if they want or earn it through PVE. So, you kind of have a minor P2P vs F2P thing going. Did I think it was fair a guy could buy their powers? Sure I did. Mind you- I unlocked mine through PVE and eventually the rest in PVP when they added it
See, when the game actually focuses on a thing called 'Player skill' then allowing people to buy things for their character means nothing....
I think fairness is in the eye of the beholder. The important thing is what a player *CAN* do in a game. Technology can only restrict behavior so far.
I didn't know that biscuts had a crux! J/K But seriously I don't think its about being "fair", for me, though I think you made a very good point.