I just really really hope its not like wow where u can grind your way to the top level. One of the best things about FFXI leveling method was that it made players group up and socialize with friends or complete strangers. You needed peoples help for quests/AF/a certain item. if they have that in FFXIV but just have also solo material on the side u can be doing then id be happy.
I would agree and that is the primary reason why I am going to play this new game without any reservations. I am confident that FFXIV and the production/development crew will be able to handle the rest. I mean come on how many games actually had a auto translate function so you could speak to other people in the world to create your party. It was such a great idea and experience that I will comeback just for that alone. Good call man!
True true, its just a concern I have. We dont really know anything yet. With the fact that their wont be any experience points the approach will be different than FFXI so hopefully my fears will be unfounded. But to say that 5.3 hours is excessive? No not at all, well at least for Americans... we spend 28 hours a week watching tv on average. It just about priorities. (maybe I should try out UO again)
It will be interesting to see how it all comes together.
That 28 hours is also a week of watching and is at our discretion when, where and for how long we choose to do it. Now that 5.3 is forced onto you. You are told when, where and for how long and if you don't play by someone else rules you could never hope to "master" WoW. So you are not really comparing apples to apples.
As far as them simplifying an already simple game and erasing past glories. I think they realized their original design flaw creating such a shallow and uninspiring end game.
As far as UO goes it still a good game, I still play it. But it is not much different now from every other mmo. With all the artifacts and no gear being destroyed.
It will be interesting to see how it all comes together. That 28 hours is also a week of watching and is at our discretion when, where and for how long we choose to do it. Now that 5.3 is forced onto you. You are told when, where and for how long and if you don't play by someone else rules you could never hope to "master" WoW. So you are not really comparing apples to apples. As far as them simplifying an already simple game and erasing past glories. I think they realized their original design flaw creating such a shallow and uninspiring end game. As far as UO goes it still a good game, I still play it. But it is not much different now from every other mmo. With all the artifacts and no gear being destroyed.
I took your "apples to apples" comment to heart and found this. Its 22 hours a week for mmo players. I still think my TV watching is relevant as it shows how people are choosing to spend their free time. And excuses like "I have a life" well that really doesnt add up. Like I said its all about priorities... or maybe prioritizing.
Well its been one day and we got alot of responses on the poll:
Yes - 37.9%
No - 53.1%
Other (I'll post why) - 9.0%
Based on 145 votes.
I am suprised that I was in the majority. Maybe I am a pessimist but I really thought that I would be flamed out of existance. Alot of really good conversation has occured also!
I just read that as saying casual gamers will be able to jump in for an hour or two and feel satisfied. You'd be lucky to even find a party within 2 hours on FFXI. I think they're just saying it won't be only for the hardcore, unlike FFXI. Well, you can be a casual gamer and play FFXI, if you don't mind spending years on it.
Originally posted by neKrow Well its been one day and we got alot of responses on the poll: Yes - 37.9%No - 53.1%Other (I'll post why) - 9.0%Based on 145 votes.
I am suprised that I was in the majority. Maybe I am a pessimist but I really thought that I would be flamed out of existance. Alot of really good conversation has occured also!
Most FFXI fans that played longer than six months were extremely happy that that content was not geared to casuals.
Casuals popping in/out made grouping unreliable and frustrating as it took time to get a party, get to the zone, find a spot and earn exp. By the time you did all that with casuals, poof.. you lost a healer, tank, dps and the party sat and waited while someone went back and spammed Jueno. Casuals didn't help your overall leveling and character advancement at all. Casuals usually weren't the best skilled players since they didn't get much practice grouping and understanding how to play with others, and that resulted in partywipes that took 10-15 mins to get back together at minimum, meanwhile some other party moved in and took your spot.
I am certainly not opposed to casual play in FFXIV, but if it's an INTEGRAL part of the game, I think many original fans will be unhappy unless they are in good linkshells and have people they can count on to group with.
I'd like to make a simple distinction for the casual crowd. "Casual' to me and I wager to a lot of people does not mean get me to top tier in a month, why bother playing I can pick up a single player RPG if that's what I want. What I do want is to be able to get something done in 1 hour or 2 PER SESSION. Needing one or two hours MINIMUM to get a level or heck get a party together and another 2 to get a level or to get to my mog house and then back out to where I was doing something is a huge headache. This was a problem in FFXI that will be addressed, I'm confident that doesn't mean people who have more time on their hands will find themselves instantly bored in a month or two. I can't explain why it's just a feeling I have from the video interviews.
I dont see why they cant make it so u can take on solo quests or solo grinding to level but still have the party experience for those who have the time (obviously a party quest/grinding would give u much more xp or rewards)
Why bother having solo content if all the good stuff is in group content. This is the argument you groupers constantly shove in soloers faces....."No on will group if you can get it solo....." This is why games need to stop trying to integrate hardcore / casual content. One always gets the crappy end of the stick and that is completely unfair. Everyone pays the same fees, but only one play style gets the good stuff, screw that.
Well, there comes a point where one side or the other has to make the determination that the game isn't aimed enough at their playstyle to suit them and move on to another game.
The act of buying and paying a subscription for a game that you then discover isn't what you're looking for doesn't mean the developer has failed to make a game that caters to you. It means that you should reconsider whether it's worth it for you to continue playing or not and possibly move on to one that does offer more of what you're looking for.
Not aimed at you specifically, Vrazule, but that's kind of at the core of an unreasonable behavior I see in many people these days... that spoiled "I'm entitled to have exactly what I want because I'm paying, too" attitude.
When buying a game, people are paying for the product the company designed to provide a certain experience to the customers. If someone sees a game is based around "A", but they're looking more for "B", then they should reconsider whether getting that game is a wise decision for them. That would be the reasonable thing to do.
What is not reasonable, and what I see many people do these days, is when said person gets the game anyway, knowing it's based more around "A". They then proceed to complain that they're a paying customer too, that the game should cater to them as well and the developers are unfairly ignoring what they want by not adding more of "B".
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Most FFXI fans that played longer than six months were extremely happy that that content was not geared to casuals.
Casuals popping in/out made grouping unreliable and frustrating as it took time to get a party, get to the zone, find a spot and earn exp. By the time you did all that with casuals, poof.. you lost a healer, tank, dps and the party sat and waited while someone went back and spammed Jueno. Casuals didn't help your overall leveling and character advancement at all. Casuals usually weren't the best skilled players since they didn't get much practice grouping and understanding how to play with others, and that resulted in partywipes that took 10-15 mins to get back together at minimum, meanwhile some other party moved in and took your spot.
I am certainly not opposed to casual play in FFXIV, but if it's an INTEGRAL part of the game, I think many original fans will be unhappy unless they are in good linkshells and have people they can count on to group with.
Very good point!
Also, it was rare to find an unskilled player in the 70-75 range. You might have personal issues with them but you could be fairly certain that they could perform their job in a party. Poor players just withered and died by then.
Keeping the challenge high just saved you time in the endgame. Not only were they not dropping party but they could do their job with little adjusting to new people. In so many other games you get a pickup group and 3 of them have no clue what is going on, like they leveled solo on boars or something.
Very good point! Also, it was rare to find an unskilled player in the 70-75 range. You might have personal issues with them but you could be fairly certain that they could perform their job in a party. Poor players just withered and died by then. Keeping the challenge high just saved you time in the endgame. Not only were they not dropping party but they could do their job with little adjusting to new people. In so many other games you get a pickup group and 3 of them have no clue what is going on, like they leveled solo on boars or something.
Yeah, there was a wonderful system of self governance in FFXI. For as huge and crowded a server you might have been on (I was on Asura) you saw tons of people, but it was always funny that you could have half a group together and then you'd be talking with them about other people on the LFG list. They immediately knew exactly who the bad players were because you saw them a LOT over the levels.
You'd see a guy and say "Hey, there is a 55 RDM LFG named Bobokitty. Want to invite them?" And and 3 out of the 4 people would say "Hell no! Bobokitty never Refreshes anyone, and all he does is use his sword instead of staves. He melees way too much and doesn't help with CC." Then you'd say "Meh, let's take him. I'm sure he'll be okay." People would scoff but they'd want to get the exp so they say ok.
Since you never grouped with him/her, you give the benefit and assume at 55, they know their job. You go out and after 30 mins, you notice these other guys were DEAD ON about Bobo. Does absolutely nothing at all but what he wants, not what helps the group earn exp and stay alive. After the group is done, you now know about Bobokitty as well. Soon a huge server population knew by level 60 or so who were the good players and who groups picked as a last resort. I can remember seeing bad WHMs sitting there while people groups would pick between 3 RDMs instead of that one bad WHM. Casual games never had this kind of knowledge due to the transitory nature of players.
In Wow, you could have a 65 healer no one ever grouped with (or who never grouped) that wipes you every time out, but no one knew anything about them. It was usually hit/miss that way in games like that: EQ2, LOTRO, WoW since everyone came and went. I missed that self regulating world of FFXI where bad players sat unless they adapted their playstyle to the group instead of WoW, where the healer wanted to DPS or the DPS wouldn't control aggro and hate, or someone was going AFK every 10 minutes.
You got shut down fast in FFXI if you did that. No one wanted to waste 2hrs on your sorry butt.
It will be interesting to see how it all comes together. That 28 hours is also a week of watching and is at our discretion when, where and for how long we choose to do it. Now that 5.3 is forced onto you. You are told when, where and for how long and if you don't play by someone else rules you could never hope to "master" WoW. So you are not really comparing apples to apples. As far as them simplifying an already simple game and erasing past glories. I think they realized their original design flaw creating such a shallow and uninspiring end game. As far as UO goes it still a good game, I still play it. But it is not much different now from every other mmo. With all the artifacts and no gear being destroyed.
I took your "apples to apples" comment to heart and found this. Its 22 hours a week for mmo players. I still think my TV watching is relevant as it shows how people are choosing to spend their free time. And excuses like "I have a life" well that really doesnt add up. Like I said its all about priorities... or maybe prioritizing.
And again you are trying to compare a raw number, which doesn't show how that 22 is broken down into different sessions or play times, with a static uninterrupted 5+ hour session so you can "master" a game.
Playing 22 hours a week is pretty easy, but playing for 5+ hours on Thursday at 8pm server time week in and week out is what most casual people are against. I already have a place I have to be at 7:30 5 days a week for 8 hours a day. Why the hell would I want to start scheduleing my leasure time like that.
Well its been one day and we got alot of responses on the poll: Yes - 37.9%
No - 53.1%
Other (I'll post why) - 9.0%
Based on 145 votes.
I am suprised that I was in the majority. Maybe I am a pessimist but I really thought that I would be flamed out of existance. Alot of really good conversation has occured also!
Why does this surprise you? I hope you don't think mmorpg.com represents a good cross section of the millions of mmo gamers.
And again you are trying to compare a raw number, which doesn't show how that 22 is broken down into different sessions or play times, with a static uninterrupted 5+ hour session so you can "master" a game. Playing 22 hours a week is pretty easy, but playing for 5+ hours on Thursday at 8pm server time week in and week out is what most casual people are against. I already have a place I have to be at 7:30 5 days a week for 8 hours a day. Why the hell would I want to start scheduleing my leasure time like that.
I don't have anything against one day of the week like that because it's like scheduling for golf, a painting class or studio session, a night out with your friends or something. I and many people can't do this every day or even most days.
I'm not sacrificing time away from my family and spending time with them for a game, I'll do it one day a week because that'll be MY day and understood as such just like when my family have their own days to go play soccer or swimming or dancing ect... So scheduling isn't the issue, the issue is that it's unhealthy to expect such dedication on a daily basis.
And yes totally true you can play 20 hrs a week, but for me it's broken down into small chunks over time.
I am very concerned about this from the E3 Q&A: Q: What influence have games like World of WarCraft have on the development of FFXIV?
A: As with WoW, we want to aim a bit for the casual user. However, we don't want to make a copy of WoW. We believe we will have things that are unique and will stand out from that game.
From my persective FFXI was very rewarding because it was not dumbed down. So I guess I am asking:
I just don't comprehend since when WoW was viewed as a "casual players'" game.
Since you can log in and do your thing for 30 min and log out, giving nothing to the world of the game as a whole.
I dont see how you think WoW is not a game for the cassual player. Does it have content for hardcore players? Well it depends what u call Hardcore. It does have end game but not nearly as hardcore as FFXI.
I guess you'd have to be "hardcore" to put up with time consuming end game like in FF11.
Besides, most end game fights boil down to zerg, tank and spank, or kite in FF11...what a challenge those are.
You know there was statistic, only 8% of the entire playerbase of WoW had done Black Temple back during Burning Crusade, so there must be something "hardcore" about it.
Lol you must not have play'd WOW in a while, it has gotten WAAAYYY dumbed down since then.
And I think that seperates FFXI and WOW as far as "hard core" is the fact that in FFXI it takes a long time to level up. When you see some one top level it was like "wow cool" and even more so with the crafting in that game. when I was playing very few people on my server "fairy" had gotten there crafting skill all the way leveled. I play'd that game for 8 months and experianced probably 25% of the game, (And I was serously putting in 5 hours a day) think my overall time on that was like 65 days ingame....don't remember..
Anyways but in WoW I play'd for 3 months and experienced probably 70% of the game. I leveled my engineering all the way, and my enchanting, I got my hunter to 70, and had around 4 alts in there mid 20's. Now I know I didn't "do all the raids" or "get my teir 6 gear" or any of that stuff...but serously...when you say a game is "hardcore" because there are 4 instances that you havn't gotten 100% o the gear from...I hardly call that "hardcore"
So yeah, after playing both for quite a while I would say WOW is VERY casual. Sure you CAN sink alot of time into it. but it'll be doing the same thing for the millionth time. "Oh no I need to do the dailys, and then que myself for the next raid" Trust me i've got a friend who plays 4 hours a day (minimum) for the last 7 months, and I dont' knwo how many times i've seen him do the same crap over and over.....
I just really really hope its not like wow where u can grind your way to the top level. One of the best things about FFXI leveling method was that it made players group up and socialize with friends or complete strangers. You needed peoples help for quests/AF/a certain item. if they have that in FFXIV but just have also solo material on the side u can be doing then id be happy.
We are completely at opposites on this one. I despise games that force you team to attempt quests. And yet you are advocating that that is one of the best things about the game?
It was this fact alone that kept me from even trying FFXI. If this is also true in FFIV, I'll be giving it a wide pass.
I am at a loss to understand why removing options (group or solo) is better. The ability to take on a quest one way or the other should always be by choice, by what's most fun to that player.
Yeah, you know, the 'multiplayer' in MMO indicates that you're supposed to play with others... lol. Why play one then?
Because there's more then one way to be social and play with others then being forced to do anything. Being encouraged to do something is totally fine but having no other way out is not.
Diversity is a good thing always. If you enjoy doing the same things the same way all the time that's ok, but there are people who like to mix it up. I never understand why having more choices is sometimes seen as a bad thing.
FF11 is one of the most hardcore MMOs on the market... if anyone actually believe 14 will be casual they are deluding themselves.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
As long as grouping is strongly emphasized and has bigger role than soloing, then I'm fine with adding that diversity factor. However what I found odd is that he thought the fact that FFXI is exactly what MMO really 'should' be about is actually a bad thing. I don't quite understand why.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
FF11 is one of the most hardcore MMOs on the market... if anyone actually believe 14 will be casual they are deluding themselves.
Did you read the Q&A session?
Q: What influence have games like World of WarCraft had on the development of FFXIV?
A: As with WoW, we want to aim a bit for the casual user. However, we don't want to make a copy of WoW. We believe we will have things that are unique and will stand out from that game.
As long as grouping is strongly emphasized and has bigger role than soloing, then I'm fine with adding that diversity factor. However what I found odd is that he thought the fact that FFXI is exactly what MMO really 'should' be about is actually a bad thing. I don't quite understand why.
Why does MMO = forced grouping?
MMO means lots of people online playing the same game in the same world.
Why can't the grouping simply be encouraged, so that those that want to group can, and those that don't, don't have to. I'm not anti-grouping, I'm anti-forcing only one way of doing something. Sometimes I enjoy grouping, but I always hate it when any quest says "Oh, you simply don't have enough friends around you to hear what I have to say".
Do you think that if they didn't force grouping, no one would do so? If so, that's a poor reason to group. You should group because you want to, because it's more fun for you to play the game that way. And yes, I agree, an MMO should encourage grouping through extra rewards such that it's not more efficient to solo. I just want it to be possible, to not be forced to team with others to experience content.
As I said, I am not anti-grouping.
However, as for why solo in an MMO, I enjoy the persistant non-ending worlds, the teeming cities, the thriving auction houses; hell, I even enjoy just seeing others running around doing their thing. It makes a world seem alive in a way a single player game never could.
Also, there are some valid reasons to not group in an MMO. I resent the time it takes to round up a team, when I could just start playing now. I don't like that everyone has to adjust their preferred playing speed to something the group, or more often the tank, dictates. I like to take my time, others like to rush. And of course, there's the potential and frequent a-hole on the team factor.
Grouping can be fun and rewarding and absolutely belongs in the game. I fail to see why it has to be the only method.
And again you are trying to compare a raw number, which doesn't show how that 22 is broken down into different sessions or play times, with a static uninterrupted 5+ hour session so you can "master" a game. Playing 22 hours a week is pretty easy, but playing for 5+ hours on Thursday at 8pm server time week in and week out is what most casual people are against. I already have a place I have to be at 7:30 5 days a week for 8 hours a day. Why the hell would I want to start scheduleing my leasure time like that.
I don't have anything against one day of the week like that because it's like scheduling for golf, a painting class or studio session, a night out with your friends or something. I and many people can't do this every day or even most days.
I'm not sacrificing time away from my family and spending time with them for a game, I'll do it one day a week because that'll be MY day and understood as such just like when my family have their own days to go play soccer or swimming or dancing ect... So scheduling isn't the issue, the issue is that it's unhealthy to expect such dedication on a daily basis.
And yes totally true you can play 20 hrs a week, but for me it's broken down into small chunks over time.
I always sound like I despise raiding when I get into these discussions. I don’t, I currently don’t raid but if a mmo peeked my interest enough I’m sure I’d raid again.
My biggest issue with raiding and I guess with mmo in general is both are become less about player skill and more about player’s ability to farm for gear.
When I played WoW I took pride in being a damn good healer. Problem is the further you got into the game the less it became about mastering your class. It became all about gear farming which is nothing more then a time sink. So by the time you farm enough gear to raid, so you can farm raid gear to get to the next raid you start thinking what the hell is the point of this.
I just really really hope its not like wow where u can grind your way to the top level. One of the best things about FFXI leveling method was that it made players group up and socialize with friends or complete strangers. You needed peoples help for quests/AF/a certain item. if they have that in FFXIV but just have also solo material on the side u can be doing then id be happy.
We are completely at opposites on this one. I despise games that force you team to attempt quests. And yet you are advocating that that is one of the best things about the game?
It was this fact alone that kept me from even trying FFXI. If this is also true in FFIV, I'll be giving it a wide pass.
I am at a loss to understand why removing options (group or solo) is better. The ability to take on a quest one way or the other should always be by choice, by what's most fun to that player.
If I wanted to play the game solo I would have seriously just played one of the Single player FF games. I am not saying that they need to have things exactly like FFXI but I am hopping a lot of it is. I rather enjoyed the connections u made with people while partying with them. Fable 2 is a good game I hear.. I am sure u can solo and finish that whole game
To tell you the truth someone who enjoys and plays solo would not be missed by anyone and to add to that I hope the FFXIV community is more like that of FFXI then that of WoW...I have played both games and I can tell you I felt I was playing a single player game most the time in WoW.
Final Fantasy has always been aimed at the casual gamers. Why would they change pace now? I just hope they make the class/race/customization more diverse than FFX! was.
Comments
I would agree and that is the primary reason why I am going to play this new game without any reservations. I am confident that FFXIV and the production/development crew will be able to handle the rest. I mean come on how many games actually had a auto translate function so you could speak to other people in the world to create your party. It was such a great idea and experience that I will comeback just for that alone. Good call man!
It will be interesting to see how it all comes together.
That 28 hours is also a week of watching and is at our discretion when, where and for how long we choose to do it. Now that 5.3 is forced onto you. You are told when, where and for how long and if you don't play by someone else rules you could never hope to "master" WoW. So you are not really comparing apples to apples.
As far as them simplifying an already simple game and erasing past glories. I think they realized their original design flaw creating such a shallow and uninspiring end game.
As far as UO goes it still a good game, I still play it. But it is not much different now from every other mmo. With all the artifacts and no gear being destroyed.
I took your "apples to apples" comment to heart and found this. Its 22 hours a week for mmo players. I still think my TV watching is relevant as it shows how people are choosing to spend their free time. And excuses like "I have a life" well that really doesnt add up. Like I said its all about priorities... or maybe prioritizing.
Well its been one day and we got alot of responses on the poll:
Yes - 37.9%
No - 53.1%
Other (I'll post why) - 9.0%
Based on 145 votes.
I am suprised that I was in the majority. Maybe I am a pessimist but I really thought that I would be flamed out of existance. Alot of really good conversation has occured also!
I just read that as saying casual gamers will be able to jump in for an hour or two and feel satisfied. You'd be lucky to even find a party within 2 hours on FFXI. I think they're just saying it won't be only for the hardcore, unlike FFXI. Well, you can be a casual gamer and play FFXI, if you don't mind spending years on it.
Most FFXI fans that played longer than six months were extremely happy that that content was not geared to casuals.
Casuals popping in/out made grouping unreliable and frustrating as it took time to get a party, get to the zone, find a spot and earn exp. By the time you did all that with casuals, poof.. you lost a healer, tank, dps and the party sat and waited while someone went back and spammed Jueno. Casuals didn't help your overall leveling and character advancement at all. Casuals usually weren't the best skilled players since they didn't get much practice grouping and understanding how to play with others, and that resulted in partywipes that took 10-15 mins to get back together at minimum, meanwhile some other party moved in and took your spot.
I am certainly not opposed to casual play in FFXIV, but if it's an INTEGRAL part of the game, I think many original fans will be unhappy unless they are in good linkshells and have people they can count on to group with.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I dont see why they cant make it so u can take on solo quests or solo grinding to level but still have the party experience for those who have the time (obviously a party quest/grinding would give u much more xp or rewards)
Why bother having solo content if all the good stuff is in group content. This is the argument you groupers constantly shove in soloers faces....."No on will group if you can get it solo....." This is why games need to stop trying to integrate hardcore / casual content. One always gets the crappy end of the stick and that is completely unfair. Everyone pays the same fees, but only one play style gets the good stuff, screw that.
Well, there comes a point where one side or the other has to make the determination that the game isn't aimed enough at their playstyle to suit them and move on to another game.
The act of buying and paying a subscription for a game that you then discover isn't what you're looking for doesn't mean the developer has failed to make a game that caters to you. It means that you should reconsider whether it's worth it for you to continue playing or not and possibly move on to one that does offer more of what you're looking for.
Not aimed at you specifically, Vrazule, but that's kind of at the core of an unreasonable behavior I see in many people these days... that spoiled "I'm entitled to have exactly what I want because I'm paying, too" attitude.
When buying a game, people are paying for the product the company designed to provide a certain experience to the customers. If someone sees a game is based around "A", but they're looking more for "B", then they should reconsider whether getting that game is a wise decision for them. That would be the reasonable thing to do.
What is not reasonable, and what I see many people do these days, is when said person gets the game anyway, knowing it's based more around "A". They then proceed to complain that they're a paying customer too, that the game should cater to them as well and the developers are unfairly ignoring what they want by not adding more of "B".
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Very good point!
Also, it was rare to find an unskilled player in the 70-75 range. You might have personal issues with them but you could be fairly certain that they could perform their job in a party. Poor players just withered and died by then.
Keeping the challenge high just saved you time in the endgame. Not only were they not dropping party but they could do their job with little adjusting to new people. In so many other games you get a pickup group and 3 of them have no clue what is going on, like they leveled solo on boars or something.
EDIT:
It's not going to be WoW, it's not going to be WoW, it's not going to be WoW.
:P
EDIT2: Out of curiosity who here strongly advocating FFXI's insane 'hardcoreness' still playing the game right now?
(,,,)=^__^=(,,,)
Yeah, there was a wonderful system of self governance in FFXI. For as huge and crowded a server you might have been on (I was on Asura) you saw tons of people, but it was always funny that you could have half a group together and then you'd be talking with them about other people on the LFG list. They immediately knew exactly who the bad players were because you saw them a LOT over the levels.
You'd see a guy and say "Hey, there is a 55 RDM LFG named Bobokitty. Want to invite them?" And and 3 out of the 4 people would say "Hell no! Bobokitty never Refreshes anyone, and all he does is use his sword instead of staves. He melees way too much and doesn't help with CC." Then you'd say "Meh, let's take him. I'm sure he'll be okay." People would scoff but they'd want to get the exp so they say ok.
Since you never grouped with him/her, you give the benefit and assume at 55, they know their job. You go out and after 30 mins, you notice these other guys were DEAD ON about Bobo. Does absolutely nothing at all but what he wants, not what helps the group earn exp and stay alive. After the group is done, you now know about Bobokitty as well. Soon a huge server population knew by level 60 or so who were the good players and who groups picked as a last resort. I can remember seeing bad WHMs sitting there while people groups would pick between 3 RDMs instead of that one bad WHM. Casual games never had this kind of knowledge due to the transitory nature of players.
In Wow, you could have a 65 healer no one ever grouped with (or who never grouped) that wipes you every time out, but no one knew anything about them. It was usually hit/miss that way in games like that: EQ2, LOTRO, WoW since everyone came and went. I missed that self regulating world of FFXI where bad players sat unless they adapted their playstyle to the group instead of WoW, where the healer wanted to DPS or the DPS wouldn't control aggro and hate, or someone was going AFK every 10 minutes.
You got shut down fast in FFXI if you did that. No one wanted to waste 2hrs on your sorry butt.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I took your "apples to apples" comment to heart and found this. Its 22 hours a week for mmo players. I still think my TV watching is relevant as it shows how people are choosing to spend their free time. And excuses like "I have a life" well that really doesnt add up. Like I said its all about priorities... or maybe prioritizing.
And again you are trying to compare a raw number, which doesn't show how that 22 is broken down into different sessions or play times, with a static uninterrupted 5+ hour session so you can "master" a game.
Playing 22 hours a week is pretty easy, but playing for 5+ hours on Thursday at 8pm server time week in and week out is what most casual people are against. I already have a place I have to be at 7:30 5 days a week for 8 hours a day. Why the hell would I want to start scheduleing my leasure time like that.
Why does this surprise you? I hope you don't think mmorpg.com represents a good cross section of the millions of mmo gamers.
I don't have anything against one day of the week like that because it's like scheduling for golf, a painting class or studio session, a night out with your friends or something. I and many people can't do this every day or even most days.
I'm not sacrificing time away from my family and spending time with them for a game, I'll do it one day a week because that'll be MY day and understood as such just like when my family have their own days to go play soccer or swimming or dancing ect... So scheduling isn't the issue, the issue is that it's unhealthy to expect such dedication on a daily basis.
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I just don't comprehend since when WoW was viewed as a "casual players'" game.
Since you can log in and do your thing for 30 min and log out, giving nothing to the world of the game as a whole.
I dont see how you think WoW is not a game for the cassual player. Does it have content for hardcore players? Well it depends what u call Hardcore. It does have end game but not nearly as hardcore as FFXI.
I guess you'd have to be "hardcore" to put up with time consuming end game like in FF11.
Besides, most end game fights boil down to zerg, tank and spank, or kite in FF11...what a challenge those are.
You know there was statistic, only 8% of the entire playerbase of WoW had done Black Temple back during Burning Crusade, so there must be something "hardcore" about it.
Lol you must not have play'd WOW in a while, it has gotten WAAAYYY dumbed down since then.
And I think that seperates FFXI and WOW as far as "hard core" is the fact that in FFXI it takes a long time to level up. When you see some one top level it was like "wow cool" and even more so with the crafting in that game. when I was playing very few people on my server "fairy" had gotten there crafting skill all the way leveled. I play'd that game for 8 months and experianced probably 25% of the game, (And I was serously putting in 5 hours a day) think my overall time on that was like 65 days ingame....don't remember..
Anyways but in WoW I play'd for 3 months and experienced probably 70% of the game. I leveled my engineering all the way, and my enchanting, I got my hunter to 70, and had around 4 alts in there mid 20's. Now I know I didn't "do all the raids" or "get my teir 6 gear" or any of that stuff...but serously...when you say a game is "hardcore" because there are 4 instances that you havn't gotten 100% o the gear from...I hardly call that "hardcore"
So yeah, after playing both for quite a while I would say WOW is VERY casual. Sure you CAN sink alot of time into it. but it'll be doing the same thing for the millionth time. "Oh no I need to do the dailys, and then que myself for the next raid" Trust me i've got a friend who plays 4 hours a day (minimum) for the last 7 months, and I dont' knwo how many times i've seen him do the same crap over and over.....
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We are completely at opposites on this one. I despise games that force you team to attempt quests. And yet you are advocating that that is one of the best things about the game?
It was this fact alone that kept me from even trying FFXI. If this is also true in FFIV, I'll be giving it a wide pass.
I am at a loss to understand why removing options (group or solo) is better. The ability to take on a quest one way or the other should always be by choice, by what's most fun to that player.
Yeah, you know, the 'multiplayer' in MMO indicates that you're supposed to play with others... lol. Why play one then?
Because there's more then one way to be social and play with others then being forced to do anything. Being encouraged to do something is totally fine but having no other way out is not.
Diversity is a good thing always. If you enjoy doing the same things the same way all the time that's ok, but there are people who like to mix it up.
I never understand why having more choices is sometimes seen as a bad thing.
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FF11 is one of the most hardcore MMOs on the market... if anyone actually believe 14 will be casual they are deluding themselves.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
^^^
Sure hope that this is true, and it is going to be a classic FF game
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As long as grouping is strongly emphasized and has bigger role than soloing, then I'm fine with adding that diversity factor. However what I found odd is that he thought the fact that FFXI is exactly what MMO really 'should' be about is actually a bad thing. I don't quite understand why.
Did you read the Q&A session?
Q: What influence have games like World of WarCraft had on the development of FFXIV?
A: As with WoW, we want to aim a bit for the casual user. However, we don't want to make a copy of WoW. We believe we will have things that are unique and will stand out from that game.
http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/696163/E3-2009-Square-Enix-Press-Conference-Tons-Of-Final-Fantasy-XIV-Details-Revealed.html
Someone is deluding themselves, that is for sure.
Why does MMO = forced grouping?
MMO means lots of people online playing the same game in the same world.
Why can't the grouping simply be encouraged, so that those that want to group can, and those that don't, don't have to. I'm not anti-grouping, I'm anti-forcing only one way of doing something. Sometimes I enjoy grouping, but I always hate it when any quest says "Oh, you simply don't have enough friends around you to hear what I have to say".
Do you think that if they didn't force grouping, no one would do so? If so, that's a poor reason to group. You should group because you want to, because it's more fun for you to play the game that way. And yes, I agree, an MMO should encourage grouping through extra rewards such that it's not more efficient to solo. I just want it to be possible, to not be forced to team with others to experience content.
As I said, I am not anti-grouping.
However, as for why solo in an MMO, I enjoy the persistant non-ending worlds, the teeming cities, the thriving auction houses; hell, I even enjoy just seeing others running around doing their thing. It makes a world seem alive in a way a single player game never could.
Also, there are some valid reasons to not group in an MMO. I resent the time it takes to round up a team, when I could just start playing now. I don't like that everyone has to adjust their preferred playing speed to something the group, or more often the tank, dictates. I like to take my time, others like to rush. And of course, there's the potential and frequent a-hole on the team factor.
Grouping can be fun and rewarding and absolutely belongs in the game. I fail to see why it has to be the only method.
I don't have anything against one day of the week like that because it's like scheduling for golf, a painting class or studio session, a night out with your friends or something. I and many people can't do this every day or even most days.
I'm not sacrificing time away from my family and spending time with them for a game, I'll do it one day a week because that'll be MY day and understood as such just like when my family have their own days to go play soccer or swimming or dancing ect... So scheduling isn't the issue, the issue is that it's unhealthy to expect such dedication on a daily basis.
I always sound like I despise raiding when I get into these discussions. I don’t, I currently don’t raid but if a mmo peeked my interest enough I’m sure I’d raid again.
My biggest issue with raiding and I guess with mmo in general is both are become less about player skill and more about player’s ability to farm for gear.
When I played WoW I took pride in being a damn good healer. Problem is the further you got into the game the less it became about mastering your class. It became all about gear farming which is nothing more then a time sink. So by the time you farm enough gear to raid, so you can farm raid gear to get to the next raid you start thinking what the hell is the point of this.
We are completely at opposites on this one. I despise games that force you team to attempt quests. And yet you are advocating that that is one of the best things about the game?
It was this fact alone that kept me from even trying FFXI. If this is also true in FFIV, I'll be giving it a wide pass.
I am at a loss to understand why removing options (group or solo) is better. The ability to take on a quest one way or the other should always be by choice, by what's most fun to that player.
If I wanted to play the game solo I would have seriously just played one of the Single player FF games. I am not saying that they need to have things exactly like FFXI but I am hopping a lot of it is. I rather enjoyed the connections u made with people while partying with them. Fable 2 is a good game I hear.. I am sure u can solo and finish that whole game
To tell you the truth someone who enjoys and plays solo would not be missed by anyone and to add to that I hope the FFXIV community is more like that of FFXI then that of WoW...I have played both games and I can tell you I felt I was playing a single player game most the time in WoW.
Final Fantasy has always been aimed at the casual gamers. Why would they change pace now? I just hope they make the class/race/customization more diverse than FFX! was.
FINBAR
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