I agree. My neighbor has every modern console, but a crappy six year old PC. He invites me to play games with him on the consoles, and every time I do I just can't seem to get into them. Some of them are cool, but they are just so simplified, for lack of a better term; especially the ones that have PC versions that I've played. But more than that, I am used to having the precise control that a mouse and keyboard gives. Using sticks to scroll through lists of commands seems so cumbersome. I'm constantly looking down at the buttons too, "Which one is X again?"
When he comes down to play games at my house on my PCs, he has a blast, but I notice his attention span for the "setup factor" of PCs is very low. He will get bored while I am patching or installing, so I make sure to do all that ahead of time before he gets there. Not to say he is lacking mentally or has ADD--his favorite PC games that I have are Rise of Nations, Warhammer: Dawn of War, and Ravenshield (games that require some mental facilities and attention span to play).
Consoles are great for fighting games and other short-term competitive activities (Fuzion Frenzy was an awesome example of that, also DOA3 and others like that). Other than that, for me, they are pretty much worthless. PC's are just so much more. I am sad whenever a good deep game comes out exclusively for XBOX, because I just think to myself how much more it could have been had it come out on PC instead.
Maybe I am just entrenched in PCs due to the investment I have made in them. But hey, I already have an XBOX. So I can buy games and play them on both systems... I just never seem to.
there will always be a market for pc games and always a market for consoles
our first pc was comodor 1228 and first pc game was reach for the stars
however we have always enjoyed consoles and i tend to get them when there "cheap garage sale, thrift store finds"
my first pc game i got into was daoc and hooked i do have a house with multi level pcs in them but we seem to always go back to consoles
the big pluss for consoles is the plug and go the draw back is where to save the game at and of course the extra memory cards
i also love the fact with my hand,s i can pause the game easy figure out console controls easy, and enjoy the simplicity generaly the console offers me
our house being the popular one on the block when kids come over they do not hit the pc with dsl and fancy newer games
they get awed by the old consoles and the older games they had when they were little!
n64 perfect dark, still remains very popular as does soul calibur for the dream cast here
Originally posted by opie Ok, thats fair enough abotu the sales issue.They will both be around, but lets be clear here.Consoles will be better if you gauge only in terms of game sales.PCs will be better if you consider which one has better games.PC's have far superior games and can outrun any console thus it appeals to more hardcore/mature gamers.
Which one has better games? Consoles by far. A way better selection of good games.
Superior games? Depends on the genre. But, mostly, console is the answer once again.
I am a mature gamer. Well, in age. I act like a kid!!! That is why my kids have all the best toys!
Hmm, where are most of the good RPG's (mmorpgs fall into that cat) - PC's buddy, not to mention all the crazy mods you can do. I played KOTOR through 7 times with differnt mods, new area, etc...cant say that about xbox my friend. Can we say fallout/fallot 2, baldurs gate, the list goes on.
Oh-my-god...forgot bout our friends called emaulators. Thats right kids, im reading email and playing shadowrun at the same time. How about that, I also get to play all the oldies but goldies. Isnt life great?
Do we even need to mention start games (RTS and turn based) - yeah, have fun controlling an army with your PS2 controller. Who would ever have thought that you would not be able to do everything with only 8 buttons and a joystick?...
Action/fps games.....again, my mouse > your shitty joystick. Aside from the fact that most online fps games live on a pc.
What have I left out? MM, sports yes.
Sports is without a doubt in the console world. I give consoles that fully, no argument at all.
However, if you like to play games besides Madden 2004 (gets old quick) then PC wins.
Thank you come again.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
Consoles are seemingly enough, cost efficient. You add in things like an optional mouse/keyboard. Good internet connection and web browser abilities, with the possibility to get larger hard-drives (some of these may already be in; consoles aren't my forte). Add all these, and keep the cost efficiency, consoles would rule the day.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Originally posted by opie Hmm, where are most of the good RPG's (mmorpgs fall into that cat) - PC's buddy, not to mention all the crazy mods you can do. I played KOTOR through 7 times with differnt mods, new area, etc...cant say that about xbox my friend. Can we say fallout/fallot 2, baldurs gate, the list goes on.
RPG's... There are good RPG's on the Xbox, but you are correct, RPG's is one of the genres that is better on the PC.
Originally posted by opie Oh-my-god...forgot bout our friends called emaulators. Thats right kids, im reading email and playing shadowrun at the same time. How about that, I also get to play all the oldies but goldies. Isnt life great?
LOL, I have a PC. I read email. I think I am goin to cry because my XBox can't read email... WTF?!?! What is the point of this argument?
Originally posted by opie Do we even need to mention start games (RTS and turn based) - yeah, have fun controlling an army with your PS2 controller. Who would ever have thought that you would not be able to do everything with only 8 buttons and a joystick?...
Yep, RTS games, better on the PC.
Originally posted by opie Action/fps games.....again, my mouse > your shitty joystick. Aside from the fact that most online fps games live on a pc.
Action games rule on the console. How do you decide that Action and FPS are the same genre???
Originally posted by opie What have I left out? MM, sports yes. Sports is without a doubt in the console world. I give consoles that fully, no argument at all. However, if you like to play games besides Madden 2004 (gets old quick) then PC wins.
Action Fighting Racing Sports Party Games Platformers
All of these are better on consoles.
So, you have 2 genres, RPG and RTS.
FPS is a split, there are great FPS games on consoles. Sure, mouse may be easier for you people with no hand eye coordination, but when you play an FPS game on a console, everybody is using the same controller. It is an equlizer. And, in fact, the method used in a controller is more realistic as shooting in real life is not nearly as easy as using a mouse.
So, PC=2 and a half genres. Console = 6 and half genres. I think it is obvious who the winner is.
Originally posted by opie Thank you come again.
You are welcome. When you have a real argument, feel free to let us know!
"LOL, I have a PC. I read email. I think I am goin to cry because my XBox can't read email... WTF?!?! What is the point of this argument?"
Sorry, I assumed you knew of console rpgs. Shadowrun is a console rpg, rather good one. A emulator is something that runs on your computer that lets you play console games, dont even have to buy the games, just download roms.
"Action games rule on the console. How do you decide that Action and FPS are the same genre???"
As in "twitch" games where pinpoint relflexes and accuracy are key. Hence action games (not adventure games like Myst, but thats pc too..not sure why though since they could do fine on consoles) and FPS games.
"Action Fighting Racing Sports Party Games Platformers"
Racing is a sport, arguably fighting is a sport hence why I didnt break it down. Action we already covered as its a twitch genre. Platformers dont need to be covered as of how obvious it is. Yeah Zelda is always gonna be a nintendo game..no shit. Party games dont have enough of a market to really be hrown into the big markets that have 99% of the sales.
What does that leave (other than the obvious platform games)?
-Sports and fighting games (which some would argue are combined, but I wont argue that)
So, im sorry instead of one, you get 2.
What are the really popular genres that are making games news? RPG's and FPS games and strat games (in all honesty im real tired of rts games, I long for some turn based). The cream of the crop for those is on the PC.
"FPS is a split, there are great FPS games on consoles. Sure, mouse may be easier for you people with no hand eye coordination, but when you play an FPS game on a console, everybody is using the same controller. It is an equlizer. And, in fact, the method used in a controller is more realistic as shooting in real life is not nearly as easy as using a mouse."
Your in a dreamworld if you think its a split. Just cause console has some fps games doesnt make it a split. Just cause all you console fps gamers have the same handicap doesnt make it any better.
A disabled person racing in the special olympics might be on equal terms with everyone else, but its still the special olympics..... Being on equal terms doesnt mean its ok.
"You are welcome. When you have a real argument, feel free to let us know"
I made my points, not my fault if your too dim to understand them.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
Originally posted by opie Lets have some fun:"LOL, I have a PC. I read email. I think I am goin to cry because my XBox can't read email... WTF?!?! What is the point of this argument?"Sorry, I assumed you knew of console rpgs. Shadowrun is a console rpg, rather good one. A emulator is something that runs on your computer that lets you play console games, dont even have to buy the games, just download roms."Action games rule on the console. How do you decide that Action and FPS are the same genre???"As in "twitch" games where pinpoint relflexes and accuracy are key. Hence action games (not adventure games like Myst, but thats pc too..not sure why though since they could do fine on consoles) and FPS games."Action Fighting Racing Sports Party Games Platformers"Racing is a sport, arguably fighting is a sport hence why I didnt break it down. Action we already covered as its a twitch genre. Platformers dont need to be covered as of how obvious it is. Yeah Zelda is always gonna be a nintendo game..no shit. Party games dont have enough of a market to really be hrown into the big markets that have 99% of the sales.What does that leave (other than the obvious platform games)? -Sports and fighting games (which some would argue are combined, but I wont argue that)So, im sorry instead of one, you get 2.What are the really popular genres that are making games news? RPG's and FPS games and strat games (in all honesty im real tired of rts games, I long for some turn based). The cream of the crop for those is on the PC."FPS is a split, there are great FPS games on consoles. Sure, mouse may be easier for you people with no hand eye coordination, but when you play an FPS game on a console, everybody is using the same controller. It is an equlizer. And, in fact, the method used in a controller is more realistic as shooting in real life is not nearly as easy as using a mouse."Your in a dreamworld if you think its a split. Just cause console has some fps games doesnt make it a split. Just cause all you console fps gamers have the same handicap doesnt make it any better. A disabled person racing in the special olympics might be on equal terms with everyone else, but its still the special olympics..... Being on equal terms doesnt mean its ok."You are welcome. When you have a real argument, feel free to let us know"I made my points, not my fault if your too dim to understand them.
OK, out of this I got...
You support piracy...
And
You need to insult people to debate...
And
You agree there are good RPG's on consoles.
And
The largest genre there is, Sports, is best on consoles.
And
Because you can't use a control other than the mouse you are gimped.
You got some really good point there
So, action games such as the Lord of the Rings series on the XBox and PS2 are twitch based games best played on a PC? Sorry, you got that wrong. Most action based games are best on consoles.
And the most popular genre is sports. More sports games than any other genre sold every single year.
Sure, there are good games on the PC, like any game that requires a mouse. Anybody that wanted to play all the best games would own both a PC and a console. Console gaming has outsold PC gaming for the past two years and the margin between the two is going to grow.
We can compare them to the console games of that genre.
You want it to be about THE BEST GAMES? The problem with that argument is that it is opinion based.
I think it is best settled at which is more enjoyable.
I, personally, enjoy the following:
On my couch, sitting back relaxed. Playing on my 56" HDTV. Having the sound come out my 5.1 DTS stereo. Playing multiplayer sitting on that same couch next to my opponent. Getting a new game home and playing it within minutes. No installing No patching No trying to start up a game I haven't played in 4 months and finding out it no longer runs right. What is wrong? Not having to put my head 12" from the screen Having a level playing field when playing online (everyone has the same console, same type of controller) Knowing the guys I am playing with/against have a headset so I can talk to them (XBox Live). If someone just drops by to visit, we cna play a muiltiplayer game. For that to happen on PC, you either need 2 PCs or the other guy must bring a PC with him. That is fine if it was planned out, but if it wasn't planned, then it is bust.
You have your reasons for liking PC games. And I agree that there are some good games on the PC. Given the choice, I would rather play on my console. More comfort, more fun.
Everybody is going to like something over another. But people always want to say that one is absolutely better than the other, and that just is not true. They both have advantages and disadvantages.
I decided to do a direct response to you after all...
Originally posted by opie Once again youve failed to answer my questions and failed to get the point.Sales isnt the same thing as quality.
Quality. Lets talk quality. Most PC games have a patch before they have been out a week. Or when they hit the shelves. Console games do not have patches. They work out of the box. PC games crash for no reason, console games don't crash unless you damage your disc. Console games have excellent quality... Halo, RalliSport Challenge 2, Prince of Persia, all quality games. I could name many, many quality games, from many different genres. You could name some FPS and some RPGs and RTS. Thats about it.
Originally posted by opie Consoles sell a bunch of games. The better games are on PC for the mentioned reasons. I havent seen any dispute console game sales numbers.
What mentioned reasons? Have to stare at a small screen 12 inches away? Sit upright at a desk with a keyboard and mouse?
Originally posted by opie Im amused that you take pride in not using decent control devices. If it sounds like a excuse...maybe it is.
Controllers are very decent and precise controllers. Just people who can't use them think they are not decent. Everybody can use a mouse. Takes very little ability. The game might as well just let you choose to shoot at a target and it gets hit automatically.
Originally posted by opie I also enjoyed your piracy jab, very funny.
Yeah, I do apologize for that,. You did mention downloading ROMs off the net though.
Originally posted by opie Again, just cause you can put a twitch game on a playstation controller doesnt mean it matches up to a real control device.
I mentioned it in the context of the Lord of the RIngs games. If you think a mouse and keyboard could play that game better, you are very mistaken. No point and click in that game.
Originally posted by opie Ohhh, sales numbers, ohh. Numbers dont mean shit, learn it, understand it, let it sink in.
Yep, sales numbers mean shit, right? Ask any developer what he thinks about that statement, and you will find the reason that more and more games are made for the console and not PCs. Consumers speak with their wallets, that is how our economic system works. You really need to figure this out.
1) True, many games need a patch, many do not. That is the tradeoff of having more in depth games....the more there is, the more there is to break. They could fix the issues completely before launch, but most companies do not have he luxury that blizzard has to spend years making sure everything is perfect(unfortunately the buisness people are to blame for that).
2) You mention a TV? I have a TV too you know and yes, you can hook up your display to your tv. Personally I have a old recliner I for TV and gaming (wireless mouse keyboard). I think this argument is kinda void as anything that could be said is applicable to both pcs and consoles.
3) Nice when you see your opponent, but while you might play against 2-3 other peple on your couch, I play against 30-40 people in a BFV game online. I prefer a larger game.
4) Your attacks against mice are pretty futile. You think using the proper tools is cheap? Sure, you can be pinpoint precise with a mouse if you have 3 seconds to move. Different issue when you pop around a corner and you have half a second to get dead on a guy ont he other side of a field...you either are on mark or you die. In multiplayer, theres no second chances like in a SP FPS game. Have to be right on every time. Works ok in console since everyone is innacurate and slower on the draw. Saying theres no skill involved just show how bind you are to it. Come to a BFV game online, play for a while, then eview your kills/deaths and then come back and talk.
5) Piracy you say? Hmm, well I could spend weeks looking for a old SNES game that goes for $3 dollars at a garage sale, but I think it easier to simply grab roms. Afterall, I think nintendo is more concerned with gamecube rather than old SNES games.
6) "I mentioned it in the context of the Lord of the RIngs games. If you think a mouse and keyboard could play that game better, you are very mistaken. No point and click in that game."
Im a little confused by that. If its not poitnt and click twitch, then it has nothing to do with my statement. For example: makes no sense to use a turn based strat game when referring to twitch FPS games. (yes i KNOW lotr is not tbs).
7)"Yep, sales numbers mean shit, right? Ask any developer what he thinks about that statement, and you will find the reason that more and more games are made for the console and not PCs. Consumers speak with their wallets, that is how our economic system works. You really need to figure this out."
Glad you asked. I am a software developer and I will tell you exactly what we care about. Well designed and implemeneted applications. Sales are nice as a reminder of job security, but your everyday focus and source of frustration is created well designed applications. If you write a piece of shit and it sells well, you dont feel any better as you know your work is still shoddy.
Maybe its not clear....let me give the class a example:
Honda Civic sales > Aston Martin Sales
So its clear the civic sells more(in number of cars and overall sales figures). Ok, think we are still on the same page.
Now, I dont know anybody who would say a civic is anywhere near the quality of a Aston Martin Insert a BMW, or Land Rover, whatever.
I think its fair (consder I drive a 2002 civic) to say that the Aston Martin is a better car.
Aston Martin quality > Honda Civic quality.
....So, once again Ill remind the class. Sales numbers are not the end all be all to the intelligent gamer. When you see movies do you just go to the popular ones and skip over all the gems that dont get such good reviews in the media of the mainstream public? How about games? Do you only buy games that are shown in the windows as they sell good or do you actually think for yourself and buy games that you think might be good?
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
Originally posted by opie 1) True, many games need a patch, many do not. That is the tradeoff of having more in depth games....the more there is, the more there is to break. They could fix the issues completely before launch, but most companies do not have he luxury that blizzard has to spend years making sure everything is perfect(unfortunately the buisness people are to blame for that).
More indepth? Give me a break. There are a lot of indepth games on consoles. Morrowind is on the XBox... Very indepth game.
Originally posted by opie 2) You mention a TV? I have a TV too you know and yes, you can hook up your display to your tv. Personally I have a old recliner I for TV and gaming (wireless mouse keyboard). I think this argument is kinda void as anything that could be said is applicable to both pcs and consoles.
But, your PC game is not written to be played on a TV and will look like crap at that resoluton and fonts will not be readable. Most PC games cannot even be p[layed at TV resolutions. So, this is a very weak argument in the case of PCs.
Originally posted by opie 3) Nice when you see your opponent, but while you might play against 2-3 other peple on your couch, I play against 30-40 people in a BFV game online. I prefer a larger game.
Consoles can play FPS games against 30-40 people on XBox Live. Nothing special about that. Consoles have that ability plus the ability to play multiplayer on one box. So PCs are one upped in this department. Good try.
Originally posted by opie 4) Your attacks against mice are pretty futile. You think using the proper tools is cheap? Sure, you can be pinpoint precise with a mouse if you have 3 seconds to move. Different issue when you pop around a corner and you have half a second to get dead on a guy ont he other side of a field...you either are on mark or you die. In multiplayer, theres no second chances like in a SP FPS game. Have to be right on every time. Works ok in console since everyone is innacurate and slower on the draw. Saying theres no skill involved just show how bind you are to it. Come to a BFV game online, play for a while, then eview your kills/deaths and then come back and talk.
You say there is skill in using mouse, but not in using a controller. When we all know how much easier a mouse is. Someone who is really good at an FPS game with a controller is a much more skilled player. You must admit this as you are saying that controllers are innaccurate...
Originally posted by opie 5) Piracy you say? Hmm, well I could spend weeks looking for a old SNES game that goes for $3 dollars at a garage sale, but I think it easier to simply grab roms. Afterall, I think nintendo is more concerned with gamecube rather than old SNES games.
And robbinbg a bank is easier than working for the money. What is your point, no matter how inconvenient it is, it is still piracy. Color it anyway you like, still piracy.
Originally posted by opie 6) "I mentioned it in the context of the Lord of the RIngs games. If you think a mouse and keyboard could play that game better, you are very mistaken. No point and click in that game."Im a little confused by that. If its not poitnt and click twitch, then it has nothing to do with my statement. For example: makes no sense to use a turn based strat game when referring to twitch FPS games. (yes i KNOW lotr is not tbs).
Ah, but I referenced ACTION games and you wanted to say action games were FPS. You have no idea what the ACTION genre is. Sorry, I didn't realise. Please do not confuse FPS and ACTION. Two different genres.
Originally posted by opie 7)"Yep, sales numbers mean shit, right? Ask any developer what he thinks about that statement, and you will find the reason that more and more games are made for the console and not PCs. Consumers speak with their wallets, that is how our economic system works. You really need to figure this out."Glad you asked. I am a software developer and I will tell you exactly what we care about. Well designed and implemeneted applications. Sales are nice as a reminder of job security, but your everyday focus and source of frustration is created well designed applications. If you write a piece of shit and it sells well, you dont feel any better as you know your work is still shoddy.
Software developer, huh? In your bedroom or for a company? Which one? Written anything good. We can all claim to be software developers. I write code everyday. Web site stuff, C++ stuff, even written my own games in DirectX. One could call me a software developer. And, as a software developer, I find it very hard to believe that you support piracy.
Originally posted by opie Maybe its not clear....let me give the class a example:
Honda Civic sales > Aston Martin SalesSo its clear the civic sells more(in number of cars and overall sales figures). Ok, think we are still on the same page.Now, I dont know anybody who would say a civic is anywhere near the quality of a Aston Martin Insert a BMW, or Land Rover, whatever.I think its fair (consder I drive a 2002 civic) to say that the Aston Martin is a better car.Aston Martin quality > Honda Civic quality.
We definitely are not on the same page. If your PC games were $1500 and the consoles games were $50, then that argument might hold. Good try though, what a load of crap.
If Aston Martins were the same price as Honda Civics and Honda Civics were outselling Aston Martins, you can bet your sweet ass Aston Martin would be a crap car. Your analogy is an Apples to Oranges comparison. PC games are to console gam,es is much closer to apples to apples.
Originally posted by opie ....So, once again Ill remind the class. Sales numbers are not the end all be all to the intelligent gamer. When you see movies do you just go to the popular ones and skip over all the gems that dont get such good reviews in the media of the mainstream public? How about games? Do you only buy games that are shown in the windows as they sell good or do you actually think for yourself and buy games that you think might be good?
Phew, thank god that class is over. I hate sitting through BuillShit 101...
If a game gets horrible reviews, I usually don't give it a second look. Why waste my money on the chance something MIGHT be good...
Sales numbers are a very good indicator for the intelligent gamer. Especially if you are looking for online play. Buy a game that there might be other people playing, or buy a game hundreds of thousands of others have bought. Good chance there will be someone to play wth online.
1) "More indepth? Give me a break. There are a lot of indepth games on consoles. Morrowind is on the XBox... Very indepth game."
Sure, there are some good indepth games on console. However, im referring to the games as a whole. As a whole pcs games are deeper. Fable is a indepth game etc, but listing all the games for every consle versus all the pc games would take far too long dont ya think?
2) "But, your PC game is not written to be played on a TV and will look like crap at that resoluton and fonts will not be readable. Most PC games cannot even be p[layed at TV resolutions. So, this is a very weak argument in the case of PCs."
Ohh? With better tvs, its easier and easier and looks better. If you really concerned with graphics you play on comp anyways since pc graphics blow xbox and gamecube, etc all to shit anyways. If your playing on your tv its not because of beautiful graphics....its cause of the lazyboy with the beer holder.
3) "Consoles can play FPS games against 30-40 people on XBox Live. Nothing special about that. Consoles have that ability plus the ability to play multiplayer on one box. So PCs are one upped in this department. Good try."
Yeah, but you beat your own point down bud. You said you can sit and play with your friends on a couch. Not with a big game thus it negate syour argument if your into big games (which I find more enjoyable). Only a fool is going to try and tell someone that consoles have pcs beat when it comes to networking and network games. If your a coder then you should know that already.
4) "You say there is skill in using mouse, but not in using a controller. When we all know how much easier a mouse is. Someone who is really good at an FPS game with a controller is a much more skilled player. You must admit this as you are saying that controllers are innaccurate..."
I admit your poor reading ability, but nothing else. I said controllers are innacurate (which you just agreed) and thus becuase of their innacuracy its not as good to play fps games with which is still true. Shit, driving with your feet is hard, just cause you can do it doesnt mean I give you credit as a better driver....just makes you another idiot. Bottom line is, mice are more accuracte, thus games based on accuracy play better with a mouse. This is pretty much unchallenged thus I will no longer debate this point.
5) "And robbinbg a bank is easier than working for the money. What is your point, no matter how inconvenient it is, it is still piracy. Color it anyway you like, still piracy."
Piracy is going to IRC and downloading farcry and making burned copies. Downlading abandonware for a years old platform not sold in stores anymore is a whole other word and if you dont see it, then theres no point in trying to get it in your skull.
6) "Software developer, huh? In your bedroom or for a company? Which one? Written anything good. We can all claim to be software developers. I write code everyday. Web site stuff, C++ stuff, even written my own games in DirectX. One could call me a software developer. And, as a software developer, I find it very hard to believe that you support piracy."
I love this, you ask for a developers opinon about something and I tell you. There you go trying to make itt into a pissing contest. Ok, heres what I do. I work for a IFE company (In flight entertainment) called Matsushita Avionics Systems in Lake Forest, CA. Its a child company of panasonic.
So, for the simple its like this: Airlines such as Singapore airlines, Virgin Atlantic, Emerates, etc ave IFE systems installed on their planes to keep passengers entertained. I write passenger applications for the system that use the data pipes to the ground such as hourly news service, Air to ground Instant messenging letting you access your Yahoo or AIM counts and chat from the aircraft.
Id say being able to login to your aim account at 20000 feet over singapore and talk to your friend whos also on AIM at 20000 feet over london is a prety cool application so yes, ive written cool stuff.
Before I worked here, I worked for nokia writing software for phones. Before there I worked at SBC in Dallas writing software for DSL modems (boring). I use C/C++, Python and perl 4 here primarily. Ive been in the industry for 8 years so I think its fair to say my credentials are valid.
Now is my opinion valid dipshit? No, I dont support piracy for software, but as I mentoned before and you missed is that abandonware isnt the same thing.
7) "If Aston Martins were the same price as Honda Civics and Honda Civics were outselling Aston Martins, you can bet your sweet ass Aston Martin would be a crap car. Your analogy is an Apples to Oranges comparison. PC games are to console gam,es is much closer to apples to apples."
Your back peddling becuase your argument is flawed. The issue is pure quality.
You say sales numbers indicate quality. I say your full of shit and that example and a thousand others show it. Sales do not indicate quality.
8) "If a game gets horrible reviews, I usually don't give it a second look. Why waste my money on the chance something MIGHT be good..."
Yeah, thats smart. There are alot of games out there that didnt sit well with reviewers but ended up being really kick ass games. Your just another mindless consumer who buys what producers with the biggest advertising bucks tell you to.
9) "Sales numbers are a very good indicator for the intelligent gamer. Especially if you are looking for online play. Buy a game that there might be other people playing, or buy a game hundreds of thousands of others have bought. Good chance there will be someone to play wth online."
Britney Spears sold a ton. The new VW bug sold a ton. SWG sold a ton.
Alot of people other than me think all of those things suck and dont buy them. If sales are the proof, how could it be possible when those things had such high sales? Theres a fundamental difference between us and I see it now. Your a drone and im not. I think before I buy, I look for gems and you buy what your told to.
10) "Phew, thank god that class is over. I hate sitting through BuillShit 101..."
Dont sit through. I realize now the kind of person you are and why this is so futile. Your a drone gamer and you defend it so strongly with confused arguments because you dont like the idea that your path isnt the end all be all. I also realize that theres no talking any sense into you at this point either so I will leave the discussion here. Keep this in mind though....go back and look at the board. I dont need you to think im right, the majority of people side with me.
I think consoles are fine and have a place for a certain kind of gamer, but dont try and shovel bullshit to people about a console being a superior platform. Its different for more economical reasons, but you take price out of the way and it doesnt compete.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
Ah yes, insults. Nothing says "I am losing the debate" bettr than throwing insults.
Originally posted by opie This gets more and more ammusing.1) "More indepth? Give me a break. There are a lot of indepth games on consoles. Morrowind is on the XBox... Very indepth game."Sure, there are some good indepth games on console. However, im referring to the games as a whole. As a whole pcs games are deeper. Fable is a indepth game etc, but listing all the games for every consle versus all the pc games would take far too long dont ya think?
As a whole, PC games are deeper? Man, I just do not get this point. For a game to be deeper, it has to have another game to be deeper than. Deeper does not al3ays mean good anyway... This is a moot p[opint either way you look at it.
Originally posted by opie 2) "But, your PC game is not written to be played on a TV and will look like crap at that resoluton and fonts will not be readable. Most PC games cannot even be p[layed at TV resolutions. So, this is a very weak argument in the case of PCs."Ohh? With better tvs, its easier and easier and looks better. If you really concerned with graphics you play on comp anyways since pc graphics blow xbox and gamecube, etc all to shit anyways. If your playing on your tv its not because of beautiful graphics....its cause of the lazyboy with the beer holder.
Really? That is why my 1080i games on my HDTV look so good forom my XBox. Thanks for helping me make my point. I do enjoy my lazy boy with my beer holder, but there are some very good looking XBox games. It is not my fault you have not had the opportunity to enjoy them.
Originally posted by opie 3) "Consoles can play FPS games against 30-40 people on XBox Live. Nothing special about that. Consoles have that ability plus the ability to play multiplayer on one box. So PCs are one upped in this department. Good try."Yeah, but you beat your own point down bud. You said you can sit and play with your friends on a couch. Not with a big game thus it negate syour argument if your into big games (which I find more enjoyable). Only a fool is going to try and tell someone that consoles have pcs beat when it comes to networking and network games. If your a coder then you should know that already.
I said I can do both. You can only do one. There is no beating down a point. Just another thing the console does better.
And as for your networking is betteron a PC bullshit. How can you say that. It is all about how it is written. An XBox has a 100MB NIC in it just like most PCs. What makes networking code written for a PC better than networking code written for an XBox? Now I know you are not a veteran coder. Maybe a beginner. If you can't see very basic obvous things like this, then you got very little experience.
Originally posted by opie 4) "You say there is skill in using mouse, but not in using a controller. When we all know how much easier a mouse is. Someone who is really good at an FPS game with a controller is a much more skilled player. You must admit this as you are saying that controllers are innaccurate..."I admit your poor reading ability, but nothing else. I said controllers are innacurate (which you just agreed) and thus becuase of their innacuracy its not as good to play fps games with which is still true. Shit, driving with your feet is hard, just cause you can do it doesnt mean I give you credit as a better driver....just makes you another idiot. Bottom line is, mice are more accuracte, thus games based on accuracy play better with a mouse. This is pretty much unchallenged thus I will no longer debate this point.
Unchallenged? Why does using a controller that requires more skill scare you away? You just want simple and easy? Then you should have a console... Much easier.
Originally posted by opie 5) "And robbinbg a bank is easier than working for the money. What is your point, no matter how inconvenient it is, it is still piracy. Color it anyway you like, still piracy."Piracy is going to IRC and downloading farcry and making burned copies. Downlading abandonware for a years old platform not sold in stores anymore is a whole other word and if you dont see it, then theres no point in trying to get it in your skull.
If you do not understand basic copyright laws, I am sorry. But piracy is piracy. Keep trying to color it something different all you want. But you are just flat wrong.
Originally posted by opie 6) "Software developer, huh? In your bedroom or for a company? Which one? Written anything good. We can all claim to be software developers. I write code everyday. Web site stuff, C++ stuff, even written my own games in DirectX. One could call me a software developer. And, as a software developer, I find it very hard to believe that you support piracy."I love this, you ask for a developers opinon about something and I tell you. There you go trying to make itt into a pissing contest. Ok, heres what I do. I work for a IFE company (In flight entertainment) called Matsushita Avionics Systems in Lake Forest, CA. Its a child company of panasonic. So, for the simple its like this: Airlines such as Singapore airlines, Virgin Atlantic, Emerates, etc ave IFE systems installed on their planes to keep passengers entertained. I write passenger applications for the system that use the data pipes to the ground such as hourly news service, Air to ground Instant messenging letting you access your Yahoo or AIM counts and chat from the aircraft. Id say being able to login to your aim account at 20000 feet over singapore and talk to your friend whos also on AIM at 20000 feet over london is a prety cool application so yes, ive written cool stuff.Before I worked here, I worked for nokia writing software for phones. Before there I worked at SBC in Dallas writing software for DSL modems (boring). I use C/C++, Python and perl 4 here primarily. Ive been in the industry for 8 years so I think its fair to say my credentials are valid.Now is my opinion valid dipshit? No, I dont support piracy for software, but as I mentoned before and you missed is that abandonware isnt the same thing.
Wow, nice load of BS. What do you really do? What portion of this software do you actually owrk on? From your earlier statements, I would have to guess that it is not the networking code. And, sine you do not develop software for the average consumer, I would have to say that your opinion is not valid. Do you still believe that developers don't care about sales??? Hell, I bet even your company cares about sales, whatever company that really is.
Wow, 8 years. You are just a cagey old veteran!!
And back to piracy we come. Abandonware is not a legal term. Something pirates made up to color their illegal activities. Look up Copyright...
Originally posted by opie 7) "If Aston Martins were the same price as Honda Civics and Honda Civics were outselling Aston Martins, you can bet your sweet ass Aston Martin would be a crap car. Your analogy is an Apples to Oranges comparison. PC games are to console gam,es is much closer to apples to apples."Your back peddling becuase your argument is flawed. The issue is pure quality.You say sales numbers indicate quality. I say your full of shit and that example and a thousand others show it. Sales do not indicate quality.
Backpeddling? I think not, you use a flawed analogy, and now you are still trying to defend it.
Lets use your analogy correctly. If that same Honda model outsells a similar Toyota model by large amnounts, there is a damn good bet that the Honda model is better quality. So, yes, sales do inidcate quality.
If we use your analogy, then price that same Aston Martin at the same price as the Honda and see which one sells more. Think sales are going to inidciate quality. I can't believe someone who thinks they are as smart as you say you are can't see this.
Your analogy is flawed because you are not comparing like priced items. PC games and console games are like priced items.
Originally posted by opie 8) "If a game gets horrible reviews, I usually don't give it a second look. Why waste my money on the chance something MIGHT be good..."Yeah, thats smart. There are alot of games out there that didnt sit well with reviewers but ended up being really kick ass games. Your just another mindless consumer who buys what producers with the biggest advertising bucks tell you to.
Well, since you make the big bucks as a software engineer , maybe you don't mind throwing your money away at EVERY game to find out if it is good. most of us use what we like to call INTELLIGENT buying. We do some research, see what a game is about, read some reviews, maybe chekc if we have friends who have tiried it, etc...
Originally posted by opie 9) "Sales numbers are a very good indicator for the intelligent gamer. Especially if you are looking for online play. Buy a game that there might be other people playing, or buy a game hundreds of thousands of others have bought. Good chance there will be someone to play wth online."Britney Spears sold a ton. The new VW bug sold a ton. SWG sold a ton.Alot of people other than me think all of those things suck and dont buy them. If sales are the proof, how could it be possible when those things had such high sales? Theres a fundamental difference between us and I see it now. Your a drone and im not. I think before I buy, I look for gems and you buy what your told to.
Ahh, now we are to the basic premise of the argument you and I have engaged in. You think that no matter what, PC games are flat out better than console games. And I believe that PC games and consoles games are equally good. There are gfreat games on both. Each has its upside.
And you see, by the fact that those things you mentioned here sold a lot of copies means that somebody thinks they are quality. And you have this high and mighty opinion of yours that it is not. And since you think they have no quality, then by golly, it must be FACT. Right? Why can't you get it through your head that because millions of poeple buy a Britney Spears Album, it means that Millions of people thought it was good. You think, becuase you didn;t like it, then it is FACT that it sucked.
Stuff that you don't like can be quality. Stuff that I don't like can be quality. I admit it. Why can't you. if you could admit this, then you would see that this debate is about the fact that Consoles can be quality and good, even though you don't like them.
Originally posted by opie 10) "Phew, thank god that class is over. I hate sitting through BuillShit 101..."Dont sit through. I realize now the kind of person you are and why this is so futile. Your a drone gamer and you defend it so strongly with confused arguments because you dont like the idea that your path isnt the end all be all. I also realize that theres no talking any sense into you at this point either so I will leave the discussion here. Keep this in mind though....go back and look at the board. I dont need you to think im right, the majority of people side with me.I think consoles are fine and have a place for a certain kind of gamer, but dont try and shovel bullshit to people about a console being a superior platform. Its different for more economical reasons, but you take price out of the way and it doesnt compete.
You are seeing things backwards my friend. I am the one saying they both are good. You are the one saying consoles suck and only PC are great. I am making confused arguments? I am just trying to clear up your bad analogies anbd flawed thinking.
In some ways consoles are superior and in some ways PCs are superior. PCs do not win in every category.
I hope you are done, as you just keep diging yourself deeper and deeper in the pit of wrongness.
Originally posted by ignitor lol i cant believe myself but i have to agree with tazzky somewhat...
LOL
You can't believe you are agreeing with me, or you can't believe you are agreeing that consoles have thier place in the gaming world?
I know I came down on you pretty hard about that Project Entropia thing, but believe me, it was not personal against you. I was just very soured against that game by my experience with it. Nothing against you...
I told myself that I would not reply again to this thread, but since im waiting on a email, why not.
For one, dont mention insults, youve been throwing plenty. Cant throw stones if you live in a glass house.
1) Its generally agreed that the mouse is more accuracte than a controller. Sure theres some skill in being accurate in a any game, but you cant tell me if you had a choice between the 2 you would choose a controller over a mouse in a FPS game. I dont know ANY person who would. Controllers are a console thing they cant really get around as they cant assume there is a desk or flat surface close by to use. Thats fine, but it doesnt make a controller on equal terms in regards to speed and acuracy in movement.
2) Xbox live, so what. Thats one service...on my pc I can access any network since networking is a natural piece to a computer. Compare the number of online players with consoles versus pcs. Its not even close. Online fps games? Socom is a fine game sure, but we have battlefield 2 HL2 based countestrike coming soon, not to mention having BFV and Star Wars battlegrounds just this year. Theres a reason these games are focused on PC.....PC is simply a better fit with that gameplay style.
3) FYI - I own a xbox, PS2 and oldies (NES, SNES, sega genesis and a gamegear - favorite conversation piece). When I talk about consoles its not out of ignorance you know. I give sports, fighting and racing (sort of as there are alot of really good racing games coming to PC recently) to consoles so I play those at parties and such when we are drinking and just lounging around playing grand tourismo. When I want a hardcore in depth gaming session, I switch to PC for things like fallout 2, mmorpgs, 60 person Battlefield 1942 games, etc. Each has their own world as I have ALWAYS stated, but consoles are simplified in terms of hardware and game complexity.
Dues Ex 2 was a awful game. Why? They designed it around the console and dumbed it down instead of designing a good game first like with the first one. Kotor? Kotor is a great game, but it could have been so much more. The limitation was in the developers but in the lowest common denominator they had to design to.
4) To answer your immature coding challenge, here goes: The NIC in the xbox is not the point. Its the limited network access. You have xbox live, the pc has everything.
If your implementing a solution for a app server, will implement a solution only allowing you access to a specific resource or set of resources? Its much smarter to design a system to allow generic acess to everything so you dont have to go back and rewrite it later when you try and expand. Dont call me a beginner when you display such poor design ideology.
5) Again, you plain wrong about copyright laws. There are 2 kinds of abandonware. One where the game has been re released as free abandonware due to age which is perfectly legal. The second is where the company no longer bothers to defend its copyrights on a set of games in which the company feels no loss and the consumer takes no risk.
Its foolish to make a blanket statement about abandonware being illegal, especially if your going to try and lecture people who actual know what the laws are.
6) In regards to my work expeience which you questioned. I dont care if you believe me or not. I have yet to hear about yours and I dont care. I give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you are a web developer due to some of the comments you have made. In a industry like this where software has to be tested much more in depth due to FAA regulations, yes quality is prime importance.
You make money by getting a airline and keeping a airline. You can sell a product really well, but if the product isnt stable and isnt kick ass, they will look elsewhere for the next gen system and you lose ALOT of money in the long run that way. The same holds true for nortel and nokia. If you take a longer look into the future, the quality of a product is way more improtant than the sales figures alone. Good quality is part of what drives sales, but not the only thing. Its possible to sell alot of copies based on very good marketing, but thats good only once, next time people dont fall for it.
Dont think my company is real? I gave you the name, I gave you the location. Look it up on the web, call the receptionist rose, ask for me (Opie - agis group)
Your no engineer if you make assumptions like this. You say im not writing network code, yet theres nothing in the post to indicate whether I am good or bad at all. Its simply too general. You make those kind of assumptions with real applications and youll be on a never ending bug hunt.
Just sounds like to me the typical pissing ground of a web developer who thinks hes a software developer because he knows how to write a cgi script and is offended by the idea that anyone else in the world might be a real engineer.
7) If you wanna think sales equals quality be my guest, im not gonna try and stop you. Keep in mind games like Fallout which didnt have the sales of alot of other big headline games whith more markeitng dollars...alot of people think that game was one of the best RPG's period, not just counting pc's. Thats a example why its foolish to rely on sales as a indicator.
You say im foolish? I dont buy every game. I read the reviews, then I go on boards and read what gamers have to say (like this board). I download the demo is there is one or try the open beta. Only then do I decide to shell out 50 bucks for a game. That is called being a intelligent buyer, not just assuming something is good because it has 4 spots in pc gamer this month and your seeing alot of advertisements for it on the websites.
8) Consoles have their place, I always have said that. Its for simpler more relaxed gaming sessiosn that dont require the amount of attention most pc games do and dont provide as deep a expeience (overall, there are exceptions both ways). I won both, but I am a hardcore gamer so I find myself always on the PC for the better graphics and longer lasting gameplay (I like mods and replayability).
Please understand it this time, consoles are fine quality, but if you are looking for games that you can get 100+ hours out of gameplay out of before you start modding or are looking for network games in general thats where you wanna go. If you are looking for games you and buddys can play when you drink and hang out, then console all the way (which is what we do...its a bad idea to bring beer to a lan party).
For most people (console gamers too admit this usually) this is pretty acepted and not seen as degrading to consoles, just a clear definition between the two in addition to explaining why one of them hasnt beaten the other one out of existence.
Just cause you think im wrong means nothing. By your sales logic, then I must be right as 85% of people in the thread agree with my ideas as stated much earlier in the thread compared to the consoles are better. Seemed like a strange question to ask on a mmorpg board anyways since pcs own mmorpgs for the most part anyways. Sure there is FF online, but all the rest are on pc (no, phantasy star online is not a MMORPG, its a glorfied diablo).
I dont expect any of this to make a difference in your mindset or help the thread to stay alive (*insert picture of beating a dead horse*), but thought id clarify some of it since I read my last post (wrote it in a hurry at work) and found it to be a bit confusing at some points.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
Insults. I consider dipshit, moron, etc insults. I never spew those words at my opponent when I debate.
Ahh, you see, now both of us are starting to agree somewhat. Instead of saying PC are the best, consoles suck, now you are saying they have their place in the world.
That is all I have been arguing for. Consoles to get their due.
As far as multi-player games, you mentioned Star Wars Battlefront, that plays in large scale on the XBox as well as it does the PC.
Mouse vs. Controller. This is a moot point, as long as everyone playing has to use the same control, the playing field is going to be level. And just to say, in my opinion, (not trying to perpetrate another debate) I enjoy using the controller in FPS games. Takes a little bit more effort and time to get the shot lined up, takes a bit more practice and a bit more skill. It just feels a bit more realistic to me. In real life, you are not going to swing your weapon up and have pinpoint accuracy on someone 100meters away in one second. Doesn't work like that, except in the movies. Sure, games liek Unreal are more like laser tag than realistic, and the game is all about running around and getting crazy shots while spinning in mid air. And that is fine. But a game like Ghost Recon, Socom, etc is more realistic. You hide, move, sneak around, get your shot lined up and take someone out. If someone jumps out from hiding and youhurry your shot, you spray bullets all over the place at them. More realistic in my opinion.
XBox Live. PC gamers can only wish there was one service that all their games interacted through, allowing seemless online game play. Like it or not, XBox Live is an excellent service and a breakthrough in networking games. Players accross all games can communicate, find their friends, etc. It is kinda like the Instant Messenger World. How much better would it be if they could all communicate with each other? Right now, if you want to IM with somebody, you have to find out what service they use and make sure you use the same service. XBox Live has solved this problem for XBox gaming. Don't knock it, it is a great idea.
Consoles are simplified? When the XBox first came out, it was a very good machine in comparison with the PCs of the day. And when the Xbox 2 comes out, it will be a very good machine with PCs of the time. But using a console is simpler. So, I guess I can agree with that term in some ways. I don't see simplified hardware, and the games are less complex, only because the designers make them that way. That is changing and will get better.
Abandoneware. Still, not a legal term. Unless a company specifically says that they have placed their Intellectual Property in the public domain. It is not legal. If you are only talking about the very small percentage of "ROMs" that have been released freely by their copyright holders, then you are technically correct, but 99% of the stuff being passed around on the Net today is illegal. Companies like Nintendo have NEVER agreed to give ANY of their rights up. But many Nintendo "ROMs" are bing passed around. Not defending their Intellectual property does not make it legal. Copyright laws are copyright laws. If you decided a company was not defending their intellectual property and you placed all of their "ROMs" on your website and you got a letter form a lawyer. Guess what? You were breaking the law and could face harsh punishments. Like I said before, Abandonware is a term pirates have made up to try and color their crime like it is OK. A company may choose to do something about it or not, but it is still not legal unless they explicitly say you can copy their stuff, and granted, a few comnpanies have done just that. But not many. But this topic has nothing to do with this debate and I am sorry we pushed into it.
I do not develop software for consumers, I develop software for in-house use. I am a Network Administrator. My point was that anyone who writes a bit of code can call themselves a software developer. That was the point I was trying to make. Because a person writes code does not mean they know all the ins and outs of marketting, sales, or anything else like that. In fact, there is a reason they have professionals to handle that aspect of business and not coders. You posted your profession and I attacked it, and I do apologise. I see now that it was insulting and I do apologise with all my heart. I hate when others do it, and I am glad when it is pointed out that I did it. Again, sorry!
As for the sales=quality debate. In a sense, it does. In your example of the FallOut series. The market for that games was not very large. A turn based game just does not have a huge audience. And that game got great sales numbers considering the size of its audience.
Gamers are mostly an intelligent bunch of people. A game usually will not get great sales if it is a piece of crap. This is the truth. Sales usually do indicate a great game or a good quality game. Can you think of any games that sold hundreds of thousands of copies and sucked bad? And don't say SWG, that game sold because of Star Wars finatics, that is a special case of diehard fans. But you could look at the size of the audience they had for that game and say it was a dismal failure that they only sold half a million copies Most gamers today see that $50 price tag and are very conscious about their purchases, just like you and me.
Depth... You keep going back to that. Sure, it is fine to have depth in games. And this may be a place where PCs shine. But it is your opinion that it is one of the more important factors in this debate. In Depth games is not the most important thing to everybody. Having the most indepth games does not make PCs the outright winner in which one is better or higher quality. Games of depth is just one of the many factors that help people decide.
I also agree that MMORPG.COM is not really the place for this debate, but it comes up often, and the console always gets a bad rap. I see the upside to consoles and many people do not. So, I like to give the consoles the backing they are due. I never start these debates, I just jump in and help defend consoles. The majority of the crowd here is against them because this site is about a genre that is ruled by the PC. I play MMORG's, I play RPGs on my PC. My recent favorite game is a PC game (NWN). But that does not make consoles any more inferior.
So, I think you and I may have finally hammered this out and come eye to eye. We seem to agree on most points. It just didn't start out with us defining our side well enough, maybe.
If you are ever in town, Albany, Oregon area (near Oregon State University), shoot me a PM and we'll get a beer and play some games. Don't worry about bringing your PC, we'll play a split screen XBox game. (Just taking a final jab in jest )
First, I thank you for your apology and I offer mine. I lose my head a bit when I feel someone is degrading what I do for a living. I apologize for many of my remarks and once again thank you for yours.
I think xbox live is a good idea for the console world. Works well and its fortunate that the people running it and the design is solid. I worry though about putting all my online gaming in the hands of one group or network as some compnaies might manage somethign very well, others might not. Its a tradeoff really I see. Computers take some extra work for network games, but you get more choice. Xbox live gives you less trouble while trading off some options.
In all fairness, I think xbox live is a good idea and I dont know of a better alternative for consoles than what they have done. After all, when im gaming on a console, I dont wanna have to try and configure ports, and change network setting manually. Press the on button and it works - thats what I want.
I like my consoles and they server their place and yes, I will be getting a xbox 2 when released.
As you said, I think we have come closer to eye to eye and I think in the end it was a productive conversation to really get itno the meat of the issue.
As a side note, I was dissapointed this year at E3 that they did not show xbox 2, but the big thing they did show was the cross platform development system they want to use so that (supposedly) there will be no ports required for pc -> console/console -> pc. Could be interesting (I want fable for my laptop ) turn of events. No more waiting for games to be ported.
Im looking forward to kotor 2, but not looking forward to waiting months after release on xbox for it to come out on pc, heh. I travel alot so I invested in a power laptop so I can play games during those boring nights at the hotel. Be nice to combine both sets of games and be able to choose whatever you in the mood for.
Again thanks for the conversation and I am glad that after a little give and take we came to conclusion.
Thanks for the offer, Ill take you up on yoru offer if im ever there. Im in San Diego, CA so if your ever here, I can show you round.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
But many Nintendo "ROMs" are bing passed around. Not defending their Intellectual property does not make it legal. Copyright laws are copyright laws.
[/quote]
Actually.......
Copyright laws are copyright laws true enough, but there is a copyright law that states that if you do not defend your copyright rights you lose them.
Ergo because they do not stop the people passing around abandonware(or even attempt to, or even make a show of attempting to) they have lost the rights to that software and it is now public domain.
Debatable in court of course, it's very easy for them to lie and say "We didn't know about it until just now!" but strictly interpertated they are legal now that the rights holders havfe not attempted to shut them down.
Aahhh, but Nintendo does defend theirs. Host them on a website that is easily connected to you and see what happens...
Most of the sites that host these ROMs are in foreign countries that will not respect the laws or the sites move around and change so much that it is difficult for the correct owners to do anything about it...
But, there are reasons sites like MAME take the stance they do. They allow no discussion of ROMs that have not been explicitly released into the public domain. In fact, I think there is like 13 ROMs or something like that, of the thousands that their emulator supports, that they allow to be discussed on their website, because they have proven to be public domain.
It is a gray area, and you are playing with your livelihood if you decide to flaunt your beliefe in this "AbandonWare" scheme.
I dont see PC MMORPG's going anywhere anytime soon, and I believe console MMORPG's will continue to come at a decent pace as well. Truth be told, if anything we'll probably see a lot more multi-platform MMO's such as FFXI in the future, especially with the next generation of console systems not far off keeping the gaming appetites of both sides of the track sufficiently sated in the years to come.
Comments
I agree. My neighbor has every modern console, but a crappy six year old PC. He invites me to play games with him on the consoles, and every time I do I just can't seem to get into them. Some of them are cool, but they are just so simplified, for lack of a better term; especially the ones that have PC versions that I've played. But more than that, I am used to having the precise control that a mouse and keyboard gives. Using sticks to scroll through lists of commands seems so cumbersome. I'm constantly looking down at the buttons too, "Which one is X again?"
When he comes down to play games at my house on my PCs, he has a blast, but I notice his attention span for the "setup factor" of PCs is very low. He will get bored while I am patching or installing, so I make sure to do all that ahead of time before he gets there. Not to say he is lacking mentally or has ADD--his favorite PC games that I have are Rise of Nations, Warhammer: Dawn of War, and Ravenshield (games that require some mental facilities and attention span to play).
Consoles are great for fighting games and other short-term competitive activities (Fuzion Frenzy was an awesome example of that, also DOA3 and others like that). Other than that, for me, they are pretty much worthless. PC's are just so much more. I am sad whenever a good deep game comes out exclusively for XBOX, because I just think to myself how much more it could have been had it come out on PC instead.
Maybe I am just entrenched in PCs due to the investment I have made in them. But hey, I already have an XBOX. So I can buy games and play them on both systems... I just never seem to.
there will always be a market for pc games and always a market for consoles
our first pc was comodor 1228 and first pc game was reach for the stars
however we have always enjoyed consoles and i tend to get them when there "cheap garage sale, thrift store finds"
my first pc game i got into was daoc and hooked i do have a house with multi level pcs in them but we seem to always go back to consoles
the big pluss for consoles is the plug and go the draw back is where to save the game at and of course the extra memory cards
i also love the fact with my hand,s i can pause the game easy figure out console controls easy, and enjoy the simplicity generaly the console offers me
our house being the popular one on the block when kids come over they do not hit the pc with dsl and fancy newer games
they get awed by the old consoles and the older games they had when they were little!
n64 perfect dark, still remains very popular as does soul calibur for the dream cast here
Ok, thats fair enough abotu the sales issue.
They will both be around, but lets be clear here.
Consoles will be better if you gauge only in terms of game sales.
PCs will be better if you consider which one has better games.
PC's have far superior games and can outrun any console thus it appeals to more hardcore/mature gamers.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
Which one has better games? Consoles by far. A way better selection of good games.
Superior games? Depends on the genre. But, mostly, console is the answer once again.
I am a mature gamer. Well, in age. I act like a kid!!!
That is why my kids have all the best toys!
Hmm, where are most of the good RPG's (mmorpgs fall into that cat) - PC's buddy, not to mention all the crazy mods you can do. I played KOTOR through 7 times with differnt mods, new area, etc...cant say that about xbox my friend. Can we say fallout/fallot 2, baldurs gate, the list goes on.
Oh-my-god...forgot bout our friends called emaulators. Thats right kids, im reading email and playing shadowrun at the same time. How about that, I also get to play all the oldies but goldies. Isnt life great?
Do we even need to mention start games (RTS and turn based) - yeah, have fun controlling an army with your PS2 controller. Who would ever have thought that you would not be able to do everything with only 8 buttons and a joystick?...
Action/fps games.....again, my mouse > your shitty joystick. Aside from the fact that most online fps games live on a pc.
What have I left out? MM, sports yes.
Sports is without a doubt in the console world. I give consoles that fully, no argument at all.
However, if you like to play games besides Madden 2004 (gets old quick) then PC wins.
Thank you come again.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
RPG's... There are good RPG's on the Xbox, but you are correct, RPG's is one of the genres that is better on the PC.
LOL, I have a PC. I read email. I think I am goin to cry because my XBox can't read email... WTF?!?! What is the point of this argument?
Yep, RTS games, better on the PC.
Action games rule on the console. How do you decide that Action and FPS are the same genre???
Action
Fighting
Racing
Sports
Party Games
Platformers
All of these are better on consoles.
So, you have 2 genres, RPG and RTS.
FPS is a split, there are great FPS games on consoles. Sure, mouse may be easier for you people with no hand eye coordination, but when you play an FPS game on a console, everybody is using the same controller. It is an equlizer. And, in fact, the method used in a controller is more realistic as shooting in real life is not nearly as easy as using a mouse.
So, PC=2 and a half genres. Console = 6 and half genres. I think it is obvious who the winner is.
You are welcome. When you have a real argument, feel free to let us know!
Lets have some fun:
"LOL, I have a PC. I read email. I think I am goin to cry because my XBox can't read email... WTF?!?! What is the point of this argument?"
Sorry, I assumed you knew of console rpgs. Shadowrun is a console rpg, rather good one. A emulator is something that runs on your computer that lets you play console games, dont even have to buy the games, just download roms.
"Action games rule on the console. How do you decide that Action and FPS are the same genre???"
As in "twitch" games where pinpoint relflexes and accuracy are key. Hence action games (not adventure games like Myst, but thats pc too..not sure why though since they could do fine on consoles) and FPS games.
"Action
Fighting
Racing
Sports
Party Games
Platformers"
Racing is a sport, arguably fighting is a sport hence why I didnt break it down. Action we already covered as its a twitch genre. Platformers dont need to be covered as of how obvious it is. Yeah Zelda is always gonna be a nintendo game..no shit. Party games dont have enough of a market to really be hrown into the big markets that have 99% of the sales.
What does that leave (other than the obvious platform games)?
-Sports and fighting games (which some would argue are combined, but I wont argue that)
So, im sorry instead of one, you get 2.
What are the really popular genres that are making games news? RPG's and FPS games and strat games (in all honesty im real tired of rts games, I long for some turn based). The cream of the crop for those is on the PC.
"FPS is a split, there are great FPS games on consoles. Sure, mouse may be easier for you people with no hand eye coordination, but when you play an FPS game on a console, everybody is using the same controller. It is an equlizer. And, in fact, the method used in a controller is more realistic as shooting in real life is not nearly as easy as using a mouse."
Your in a dreamworld if you think its a split. Just cause console has some fps games doesnt make it a split. Just cause all you console fps gamers have the same handicap doesnt make it any better.
A disabled person racing in the special olympics might be on equal terms with everyone else, but its still the special olympics..... Being on equal terms doesnt mean its ok.
"You are welcome. When you have a real argument, feel free to let us know"
I made my points, not my fault if your too dim to understand them.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
OK, out of this I got...
You support piracy...
And
You need to insult people to debate...
And
You agree there are good RPG's on consoles.
And
The largest genre there is, Sports, is best on consoles.
And
Because you can't use a control other than the mouse you are gimped.
You got some really good point there
So, action games such as the Lord of the Rings series on the XBox and PS2 are twitch based games best played on a PC? Sorry, you got that wrong. Most action based games are best on consoles.
And the most popular genre is sports. More sports games than any other genre sold every single year.
Sure, there are good games on the PC, like any game that requires a mouse. Anybody that wanted to play all the best games would own both a PC and a console. Console gaming has outsold PC gaming for the past two years and the margin between the two is going to grow.
I love it!
Once again youve failed to answer my questions and failed to get the point.
Sales isnt the same thing as quality.
Consoles sell a bunch of games. The better games are on PC for the mentioned reasons. I havent seen any dispute console game sales numbers.
Im amused that you take pride in not using decent control devices. If it sounds like a excuse...maybe it is.
I also enjoyed your piracy jab, very funny.
Again, just cause you can put a twitch game on a playstation controller doesnt mean it matches up to a real control device.
Ohhh, sales numbers, ohh. Numbers dont mean shit, learn it, understand it, let it sink in.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
OK. By genre, list the best games on the PC...
We can compare them to the console games of that genre.
You want it to be about THE BEST GAMES? The problem with that argument is that it is opinion based.
I think it is best settled at which is more enjoyable.
I, personally, enjoy the following:
On my couch, sitting back relaxed.
Playing on my 56" HDTV.
Having the sound come out my 5.1 DTS stereo.
Playing multiplayer sitting on that same couch next to my opponent.
Getting a new game home and playing it within minutes.
No installing
No patching
No trying to start up a game I haven't played in 4 months and finding out it no longer runs right. What is wrong?
Not having to put my head 12" from the screen
Having a level playing field when playing online (everyone has the same console, same type of controller)
Knowing the guys I am playing with/against have a headset so I can talk to them (XBox Live).
If someone just drops by to visit, we cna play a muiltiplayer game. For that to happen on PC, you either need 2 PCs or the other guy must bring a PC with him. That is fine if it was planned out, but if it wasn't planned, then it is bust.
You have your reasons for liking PC games. And I agree that there are some good games on the PC. Given the choice, I would rather play on my console. More comfort, more fun.
Everybody is going to like something over another. But people always want to say that one is absolutely better than the other, and that just is not true. They both have advantages and disadvantages.
I decided to do a direct response to you after all...
Quality. Lets talk quality. Most PC games have a patch before they have been out a week. Or when they hit the shelves. Console games do not have patches. They work out of the box. PC games crash for no reason, console games don't crash unless you damage your disc. Console games have excellent quality... Halo, RalliSport Challenge 2, Prince of Persia, all quality games. I could name many, many quality games, from many different genres. You could name some FPS and some RPGs and RTS. Thats about it.
What mentioned reasons? Have to stare at a small screen 12 inches away? Sit upright at a desk with a keyboard and mouse?
Controllers are very decent and precise controllers. Just people who can't use them think they are not decent. Everybody can use a mouse. Takes very little ability. The game might as well just let you choose to shoot at a target and it gets hit automatically.
Yeah, I do apologize for that,. You did mention downloading ROMs off the net though.
I mentioned it in the context of the Lord of the RIngs games. If you think a mouse and keyboard could play that game better, you are very mistaken. No point and click in that game.
Yep, sales numbers mean shit, right? Ask any developer what he thinks about that statement, and you will find the reason that more and more games are made for the console and not PCs. Consumers speak with their wallets, that is how our economic system works. You really need to figure this out.
1) True, many games need a patch, many do not. That is the tradeoff of having more in depth games....the more there is, the more there is to break. They could fix the issues completely before launch, but most companies do not have he luxury that blizzard has to spend years making sure everything is perfect(unfortunately the buisness people are to blame for that).
2) You mention a TV? I have a TV too you know and yes, you can hook up your display to your tv. Personally I have a old recliner I for TV and gaming (wireless mouse keyboard). I think this argument is kinda void as anything that could be said is applicable to both pcs and consoles.
3) Nice when you see your opponent, but while you might play against 2-3 other peple on your couch, I play against 30-40 people in a BFV game online. I prefer a larger game.
4) Your attacks against mice are pretty futile. You think using the proper tools is cheap? Sure, you can be pinpoint precise with a mouse if you have 3 seconds to move. Different issue when you pop around a corner and you have half a second to get dead on a guy ont he other side of a field...you either are on mark or you die. In multiplayer, theres no second chances like in a SP FPS game. Have to be right on every time. Works ok in console since everyone is innacurate and slower on the draw. Saying theres no skill involved just show how bind you are to it. Come to a BFV game online, play for a while, then eview your kills/deaths and then come back and talk.
5) Piracy you say? Hmm, well I could spend weeks looking for a old SNES game that goes for $3 dollars at a garage sale, but I think it easier to simply grab roms. Afterall, I think nintendo is more concerned with gamecube rather than old SNES games.
6)
"I mentioned it in the context of the Lord of the RIngs games. If you think a mouse and keyboard could play that game better, you are very mistaken. No point and click in that game."
Im a little confused by that. If its not poitnt and click twitch, then it has nothing to do with my statement. For example: makes no sense to use a turn based strat game when referring to twitch FPS games. (yes i KNOW lotr is not tbs).
7)"Yep, sales numbers mean shit, right? Ask any developer what he thinks about that statement, and you will find the reason that more and more games are made for the console and not PCs. Consumers speak with their wallets, that is how our economic system works. You really need to figure this out."
Glad you asked. I am a software developer and I will tell you exactly what we care about. Well designed and implemeneted applications. Sales are nice as a reminder of job security, but your everyday focus and source of frustration is created well designed applications. If you write a piece of shit and it sells well, you dont feel any better as you know your work is still shoddy.
Maybe its not clear....let me give the class a example:
Honda Civic sales > Aston Martin Sales
So its clear the civic sells more(in number of cars and overall sales figures). Ok, think we are still on the same page.
Now, I dont know anybody who would say a civic is anywhere near the quality of a Aston Martin Insert a BMW, or Land Rover, whatever.
I think its fair (consder I drive a 2002 civic) to say that the Aston Martin is a better car.
Aston Martin quality > Honda Civic quality.
....So, once again Ill remind the class. Sales numbers are not the end all be all to the intelligent gamer. When you see movies do you just go to the popular ones and skip over all the gems that dont get such good reviews in the media of the mainstream public? How about games? Do you only buy games that are shown in the windows as they sell good or do you actually think for yourself and buy games that you think might be good?
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
This is fun. Let us continue...
More indepth? Give me a break. There are a lot of indepth games on consoles. Morrowind is on the XBox... Very indepth game.
But, your PC game is not written to be played on a TV and will look like crap at that resoluton and fonts will not be readable. Most PC games cannot even be p[layed at TV resolutions. So, this is a very weak argument in the case of PCs.
Consoles can play FPS games against 30-40 people on XBox Live. Nothing special about that. Consoles have that ability plus the ability to play multiplayer on one box. So PCs are one upped in this department. Good try.
You say there is skill in using mouse, but not in using a controller. When we all know how much easier a mouse is. Someone who is really good at an FPS game with a controller is a much more skilled player. You must admit this as you are saying that controllers are innaccurate...
And robbinbg a bank is easier than working for the money. What is your point, no matter how inconvenient it is, it is still piracy. Color it anyway you like, still piracy.
Ah, but I referenced ACTION games and you wanted to say action games were FPS. You have no idea what the ACTION genre is. Sorry, I didn't realise. Please do not confuse FPS and ACTION. Two different genres.
Software developer, huh? In your bedroom or for a company? Which one? Written anything good. We can all claim to be software developers. I write code everyday. Web site stuff, C++ stuff, even written my own games in DirectX. One could call me a software developer. And, as a software developer, I find it very hard to believe that you support piracy.
We definitely are not on the same page. If your PC games were $1500 and the consoles games were $50, then that argument might hold. Good try though, what a load of crap.
If Aston Martins were the same price as Honda Civics and Honda Civics were outselling Aston Martins, you can bet your sweet ass Aston Martin would be a crap car. Your analogy is an Apples to Oranges comparison. PC games are to console gam,es is much closer to apples to apples.
Phew, thank god that class is over. I hate sitting through BuillShit 101...
If a game gets horrible reviews, I usually don't give it a second look. Why waste my money on the chance something MIGHT be good...
Sales numbers are a very good indicator for the intelligent gamer. Especially if you are looking for online play. Buy a game that there might be other people playing, or buy a game hundreds of thousands of others have bought. Good chance there will be someone to play wth online.
This gets more and more ammusing.
1)
"More indepth? Give me a break. There are a lot of indepth games on consoles. Morrowind is on the XBox... Very indepth game."
Sure, there are some good indepth games on console. However, im referring to the games as a whole. As a whole pcs games are deeper. Fable is a indepth game etc, but listing all the games for every consle versus all the pc games would take far too long dont ya think?
2)
"But, your PC game is not written to be played on a TV and will look like crap at that resoluton and fonts will not be readable. Most PC games cannot even be p[layed at TV resolutions. So, this is a very weak argument in the case of PCs."
Ohh? With better tvs, its easier and easier and looks better. If you really concerned with graphics you play on comp anyways since pc graphics blow xbox and gamecube, etc all to shit anyways. If your playing on your tv its not because of beautiful graphics....its cause of the lazyboy with the beer holder.
3)
"Consoles can play FPS games against 30-40 people on XBox Live. Nothing special about that. Consoles have that ability plus the ability to play multiplayer on one box. So PCs are one upped in this department. Good try."
Yeah, but you beat your own point down bud. You said you can sit and play with your friends on a couch. Not with a big game thus it negate syour argument if your into big games (which I find more enjoyable). Only a fool is going to try and tell someone that consoles have pcs beat when it comes to networking and network games. If your a coder then you should know that already.
4)
"You say there is skill in using mouse, but not in using a controller. When we all know how much easier a mouse is. Someone who is really good at an FPS game with a controller is a much more skilled player. You must admit this as you are saying that controllers are innaccurate..."
I admit your poor reading ability, but nothing else. I said controllers are innacurate (which you just agreed) and thus becuase of their innacuracy its not as good to play fps games with which is still true. Shit, driving with your feet is hard, just cause you can do it doesnt mean I give you credit as a better driver....just makes you another idiot. Bottom line is, mice are more accuracte, thus games based on accuracy play better with a mouse. This is pretty much unchallenged thus I will no longer debate this point.
5)
"And robbinbg a bank is easier than working for the money. What is your point, no matter how inconvenient it is, it is still piracy. Color it anyway you like, still piracy."
Piracy is going to IRC and downloading farcry and making burned copies. Downlading abandonware for a years old platform not sold in stores anymore is a whole other word and if you dont see it, then theres no point in trying to get it in your skull.
6)
"Software developer, huh? In your bedroom or for a company? Which one? Written anything good. We can all claim to be software developers. I write code everyday. Web site stuff, C++ stuff, even written my own games in DirectX. One could call me a software developer. And, as a software developer, I find it very hard to believe that you support piracy."
I love this, you ask for a developers opinon about something and I tell you. There you go trying to make itt into a pissing contest. Ok, heres what I do. I work for a IFE company (In flight entertainment) called Matsushita Avionics Systems in Lake Forest, CA. Its a child company of panasonic.
So, for the simple its like this: Airlines such as Singapore airlines, Virgin Atlantic, Emerates, etc ave IFE systems installed on their planes to keep passengers entertained. I write passenger applications for the system that use the data pipes to the ground such as hourly news service, Air to ground Instant messenging letting you access your Yahoo or AIM counts and chat from the aircraft.
Id say being able to login to your aim account at 20000 feet over singapore and talk to your friend whos also on AIM at 20000 feet over london is a prety cool application so yes, ive written cool stuff.
Before I worked here, I worked for nokia writing software for phones. Before there I worked at SBC in Dallas writing software for DSL modems (boring). I use C/C++, Python and perl 4 here primarily. Ive been in the industry for 8 years so I think its fair to say my credentials are valid.
Now is my opinion valid dipshit? No, I dont support piracy for software, but as I mentoned before and you missed is that abandonware isnt the same thing.
7)
"If Aston Martins were the same price as Honda Civics and Honda Civics were outselling Aston Martins, you can bet your sweet ass Aston Martin would be a crap car. Your analogy is an Apples to Oranges comparison. PC games are to console gam,es is much closer to apples to apples."
Your back peddling becuase your argument is flawed. The issue is pure quality.
You say sales numbers indicate quality. I say your full of shit and that example and a thousand others show it. Sales do not indicate quality.
8)
"If a game gets horrible reviews, I usually don't give it a second look. Why waste my money on the chance something MIGHT be good..."
Yeah, thats smart. There are alot of games out there that didnt sit well with reviewers but ended up being really kick ass games. Your just another mindless consumer who buys what producers with the biggest advertising bucks tell you to.
9)
"Sales numbers are a very good indicator for the intelligent gamer. Especially if you are looking for online play. Buy a game that there might be other people playing, or buy a game hundreds of thousands of others have bought. Good chance there will be someone to play wth online."
Britney Spears sold a ton. The new VW bug sold a ton. SWG sold a ton.
Alot of people other than me think all of those things suck and dont buy them. If sales are the proof, how could it be possible when those things had such high sales? Theres a fundamental difference between us and I see it now. Your a drone and im not. I think before I buy, I look for gems and you buy what your told to.
10)
"Phew, thank god that class is over. I hate sitting through BuillShit 101..."
Dont sit through. I realize now the kind of person you are and why this is so futile. Your a drone gamer and you defend it so strongly with confused arguments because you dont like the idea that your path isnt the end all be all. I also realize that theres no talking any sense into you at this point either so I will leave the discussion here. Keep this in mind though....go back and look at the board. I dont need you to think im right, the majority of people side with me.
I think consoles are fine and have a place for a certain kind of gamer, but dont try and shovel bullshit to people about a console being a superior platform. Its different for more economical reasons, but you take price out of the way and it doesnt compete.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
Ah yes, insults. Nothing says "I am losing the debate" bettr than throwing insults.
As a whole, PC games are deeper? Man, I just do not get this point. For a game to be deeper, it has to have another game to be deeper than. Deeper does not al3ays mean good anyway... This is a moot p[opint either way you look at it.
Really? That is why my 1080i games on my HDTV look so good forom my XBox. Thanks for helping me make my point. I do enjoy my lazy boy with my beer holder, but there are some very good looking XBox games. It is not my fault you have not had the opportunity to enjoy them.
I said I can do both. You can only do one. There is no beating down a point. Just another thing the console does better.
And as for your networking is betteron a PC bullshit. How can you say that. It is all about how it is written. An XBox has a 100MB NIC in it just like most PCs. What makes networking code written for a PC better than networking code written for an XBox? Now I know you are not a veteran coder. Maybe a beginner. If you can't see very basic obvous things like this, then you got very little experience.
Unchallenged? Why does using a controller that requires more skill scare you away? You just want simple and easy? Then you should have a console...
Much easier.
If you do not understand basic copyright laws, I am sorry. But piracy is piracy. Keep trying to color it something different all you want. But you are just flat wrong.
Wow, nice load of BS. What do you really do? What portion of this software do you actually owrk on? From your earlier statements, I would have to guess that it is not the networking code. And, sine you do not develop software for the average consumer, I would have to say that your opinion is not valid. Do you still believe that developers don't care about sales??? Hell, I bet even your company cares about sales, whatever company that really is.
Wow, 8 years. You are just a cagey old veteran!!
And back to piracy we come. Abandonware is not a legal term. Something pirates made up to color their illegal activities. Look up Copyright...
Backpeddling? I think not, you use a flawed analogy, and now you are still trying to defend it.
Lets use your analogy correctly. If that same Honda model outsells a similar Toyota model by large amnounts, there is a damn good bet that the Honda model is better quality. So, yes, sales do inidcate quality.
If we use your analogy, then price that same Aston Martin at the same price as the Honda and see which one sells more. Think sales are going to inidciate quality. I can't believe someone who thinks they are as smart as you say you are can't see this.
Your analogy is flawed because you are not comparing like priced items. PC games and console games are like priced items.
Well, since you make the big bucks as a software engineer
, maybe you don't mind throwing your money away at EVERY game to find out if it is good. most of us use what we like to call INTELLIGENT buying. We do some research, see what a game is about, read some reviews, maybe chekc if we have friends who have tiried it, etc...
Ahh, now we are to the basic premise of the argument you and I have engaged in. You think that no matter what, PC games are flat out better than console games. And I believe that PC games and consoles games are equally good. There are gfreat games on both. Each has its upside.
And you see, by the fact that those things you mentioned here sold a lot of copies means that somebody thinks they are quality. And you have this high and mighty opinion of yours that it is not. And since you think they have no quality, then by golly, it must be FACT. Right? Why can't you get it through your head that because millions of poeple buy a Britney Spears Album, it means that Millions of people thought it was good. You think, becuase you didn;t like it, then it is FACT that it sucked.
Stuff that you don't like can be quality. Stuff that I don't like can be quality. I admit it. Why can't you. if you could admit this, then you would see that this debate is about the fact that Consoles can be quality and good, even though you don't like them.
You are seeing things backwards my friend. I am the one saying they both are good. You are the one saying consoles suck and only PC are great. I am making confused arguments? I am just trying to clear up your bad analogies anbd flawed thinking.
In some ways consoles are superior and in some ways PCs are superior. PCs do not win in every category.
I hope you are done, as you just keep diging yourself deeper and deeper in the pit of wrongness.
lol i cant believe myself but i have to agree with tazzky somewhat...
each(pc's & boxes) got their pros and cons...
the abilities of Xbox to play RPG's is revolutionary
so maybe the best option regarding boxes and such matter(morrowind,...)
also who would like to miss the whole FF series?
....
STERLING&MOSS ASSOCIATES(PE)
STERLING&MOSS ASSOCIATES(PE)
LOL
You can't believe you are agreeing with me, or you can't believe you are agreeing that consoles have thier place in the gaming world?
I know I came down on you pretty hard about that Project Entropia thing, but believe me, it was not personal against you. I was just very soured against that game by my experience with it. Nothing against you...
I told myself that I would not reply again to this thread, but since im waiting on a email, why not.
For one, dont mention insults, youve been throwing plenty. Cant throw stones if you live in a glass house.
1) Its generally agreed that the mouse is more accuracte than a controller. Sure theres some skill in being accurate in a any game, but you cant tell me if you had a choice between the 2 you would choose a controller over a mouse in a FPS game. I dont know ANY person who would. Controllers are a console thing they cant really get around as they cant assume there is a desk or flat surface close by to use. Thats fine, but it doesnt make a controller on equal terms in regards to speed and acuracy in movement.
2) Xbox live, so what. Thats one service...on my pc I can access any network since networking is a natural piece to a computer. Compare the number of online players with consoles versus pcs. Its not even close. Online fps games? Socom is a fine game sure, but we have battlefield 2 HL2 based countestrike coming soon, not to mention having BFV and Star Wars battlegrounds just this year. Theres a reason these games are focused on PC.....PC is simply a better fit with that gameplay style.
3) FYI - I own a xbox, PS2 and oldies (NES, SNES, sega genesis and a gamegear - favorite conversation piece). When I talk about consoles its not out of ignorance you know. I give sports, fighting and racing (sort of as there are alot of really good racing games coming to PC recently) to consoles so I play those at parties and such when we are drinking and just lounging around playing grand tourismo. When I want a hardcore in depth gaming session, I switch to PC for things like fallout 2, mmorpgs, 60 person Battlefield 1942 games, etc. Each has their own world as I have ALWAYS stated, but consoles are simplified in terms of hardware and game complexity.
Dues Ex 2 was a awful game. Why? They designed it around the console and dumbed it down instead of designing a good game first like with the first one. Kotor? Kotor is a great game, but it could have been so much more. The limitation was in the developers but in the lowest common denominator they had to design to.
4) To answer your immature coding challenge, here goes: The NIC in the xbox is not the point. Its the limited network access. You have xbox live, the pc has everything.
If your implementing a solution for a app server, will implement a solution only allowing you access to a specific resource or set of resources? Its much smarter to design a system to allow generic acess to everything so you dont have to go back and rewrite it later when you try and expand. Dont call me a beginner when you display such poor design ideology.
5) Again, you plain wrong about copyright laws. There are 2 kinds of abandonware. One where the game has been re released as free abandonware due to age which is perfectly legal. The second is where the company no longer bothers to defend its copyrights on a set of games in which the company feels no loss and the consumer takes no risk.
Its foolish to make a blanket statement about abandonware being illegal, especially if your going to try and lecture people who actual know what the laws are.
6) In regards to my work expeience which you questioned. I dont care if you believe me or not. I have yet to hear about yours and I dont care. I give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you are a web developer due to some of the comments you have made. In a industry like this where software has to be tested much more in depth due to FAA regulations, yes quality is prime importance.
You make money by getting a airline and keeping a airline. You can sell a product really well, but if the product isnt stable and isnt kick ass, they will look elsewhere for the next gen system and you lose ALOT of money in the long run that way. The same holds true for nortel and nokia. If you take a longer look into the future, the quality of a product is way more improtant than the sales figures alone. Good quality is part of what drives sales, but not the only thing. Its possible to sell alot of copies based on very good marketing, but thats good only once, next time people dont fall for it.
Dont think my company is real? I gave you the name, I gave you the location. Look it up on the web, call the receptionist rose, ask for me (Opie - agis group)
Your no engineer if you make assumptions like this. You say im not writing network code, yet theres nothing in the post to indicate whether I am good or bad at all. Its simply too general. You make those kind of assumptions with real applications and youll be on a never ending bug hunt.
Just sounds like to me the typical pissing ground of a web developer who thinks hes a software developer because he knows how to write a cgi script and is offended by the idea that anyone else in the world might be a real engineer.
7) If you wanna think sales equals quality be my guest, im not gonna try and stop you. Keep in mind games like Fallout which didnt have the sales of alot of other big headline games whith more markeitng dollars...alot of people think that game was one of the best RPG's period, not just counting pc's. Thats a example why its foolish to rely on sales as a indicator.
You say im foolish? I dont buy every game. I read the reviews, then I go on boards and read what gamers have to say (like this board). I download the demo is there is one or try the open beta. Only then do I decide to shell out 50 bucks for a game. That is called being a intelligent buyer, not just assuming something is good because it has 4 spots in pc gamer this month and your seeing alot of advertisements for it on the websites.
8) Consoles have their place, I always have said that. Its for simpler more relaxed gaming sessiosn that dont require the amount of attention most pc games do and dont provide as deep a expeience (overall, there are exceptions both ways). I won both, but I am a hardcore gamer so I find myself always on the PC for the better graphics and longer lasting gameplay (I like mods and replayability).
Please understand it this time, consoles are fine quality, but if you are looking for games that you can get 100+ hours out of gameplay out of before you start modding or are looking for network games in general thats where you wanna go. If you are looking for games you and buddys can play when you drink and hang out, then console all the way (which is what we do...its a bad idea to bring beer to a lan party).
For most people (console gamers too admit this usually) this is pretty acepted and not seen as degrading to consoles, just a clear definition between the two in addition to explaining why one of them hasnt beaten the other one out of existence.
Just cause you think im wrong means nothing. By your sales logic, then I must be right as 85% of people in the thread agree with my ideas as stated much earlier in the thread compared to the consoles are better. Seemed like a strange question to ask on a mmorpg board anyways since pcs own mmorpgs for the most part anyways. Sure there is FF online, but all the rest are on pc (no, phantasy star online is not a MMORPG, its a glorfied diablo).
I dont expect any of this to make a difference in your mindset or help the thread to stay alive (*insert picture of beating a dead horse*), but thought id clarify some of it since I read my last post (wrote it in a hurry at work) and found it to be a bit confusing at some points.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
Insults. I consider dipshit, moron, etc insults. I never spew those words at my opponent when I debate.
Ahh, you see, now both of us are starting to agree somewhat. Instead of saying PC are the best, consoles suck, now you are saying they have their place in the world.
That is all I have been arguing for. Consoles to get their due.
As far as multi-player games, you mentioned Star Wars Battlefront, that plays in large scale on the XBox as well as it does the PC.
Mouse vs. Controller. This is a moot point, as long as everyone playing has to use the same control, the playing field is going to be level. And just to say, in my opinion, (not trying to perpetrate another debate) I enjoy using the controller in FPS games. Takes a little bit more effort and time to get the shot lined up, takes a bit more practice and a bit more skill. It just feels a bit more realistic to me. In real life, you are not going to swing your weapon up and have pinpoint accuracy on someone 100meters away in one second. Doesn't work like that, except in the movies. Sure, games liek Unreal are more like laser tag than realistic, and the game is all about running around and getting crazy shots while spinning in mid air. And that is fine. But a game like Ghost Recon, Socom, etc is more realistic. You hide, move, sneak around, get your shot lined up and take someone out. If someone jumps out from hiding and youhurry your shot, you spray bullets all over the place at them. More realistic in my opinion.
XBox Live. PC gamers can only wish there was one service that all their games interacted through, allowing seemless online game play. Like it or not, XBox Live is an excellent service and a breakthrough in networking games. Players accross all games can communicate, find their friends, etc. It is kinda like the Instant Messenger World. How much better would it be if they could all communicate with each other? Right now, if you want to IM with somebody, you have to find out what service they use and make sure you use the same service. XBox Live has solved this problem for XBox gaming. Don't knock it, it is a great idea.
Consoles are simplified? When the XBox first came out, it was a very good machine in comparison with the PCs of the day. And when the Xbox 2 comes out, it will be a very good machine with PCs of the time. But using a console is simpler. So, I guess I can agree with that term in some ways. I don't see simplified hardware, and the games are less complex, only because the designers make them that way. That is changing and will get better.
Abandoneware. Still, not a legal term. Unless a company specifically says that they have placed their Intellectual Property in the public domain. It is not legal. If you are only talking about the very small percentage of "ROMs" that have been released freely by their copyright holders, then you are technically correct, but 99% of the stuff being passed around on the Net today is illegal. Companies like Nintendo have NEVER agreed to give ANY of their rights up. But many Nintendo "ROMs" are bing passed around. Not defending their Intellectual property does not make it legal. Copyright laws are copyright laws. If you decided a company was not defending their intellectual property and you placed all of their "ROMs" on your website and you got a letter form a lawyer. Guess what? You were breaking the law and could face harsh punishments. Like I said before, Abandonware is a term pirates have made up to try and color their crime like it is OK. A company may choose to do something about it or not, but it is still not legal unless they explicitly say you can copy their stuff, and granted, a few comnpanies have done just that. But not many. But this topic has nothing to do with this debate and I am sorry we pushed into it.
I do not develop software for consumers, I develop software for in-house use. I am a Network Administrator. My point was that anyone who writes a bit of code can call themselves a software developer. That was the point I was trying to make. Because a person writes code does not mean they know all the ins and outs of marketting, sales, or anything else like that. In fact, there is a reason they have professionals to handle that aspect of business and not coders. You posted your profession and I attacked it, and I do apologise. I see now that it was insulting and I do apologise with all my heart. I hate when others do it, and I am glad when it is pointed out that I did it. Again, sorry!
As for the sales=quality debate. In a sense, it does. In your example of the FallOut series. The market for that games was not very large. A turn based game just does not have a huge audience. And that game got great sales numbers considering the size of its audience.
Gamers are mostly an intelligent bunch of people. A game usually will not get great sales if it is a piece of crap. This is the truth. Sales usually do indicate a great game or a good quality game. Can you think of any games that sold hundreds of thousands of copies and sucked bad? And don't say SWG, that game sold because of Star Wars finatics, that is a special case of diehard fans. But you could look at the size of the audience they had for that game and say it was a dismal failure that they only sold half a million copies
Most gamers today see that $50 price tag and are very conscious about their purchases, just like you and me.
Depth... You keep going back to that. Sure, it is fine to have depth in games. And this may be a place where PCs shine. But it is your opinion that it is one of the more important factors in this debate. In Depth games is not the most important thing to everybody. Having the most indepth games does not make PCs the outright winner in which one is better or higher quality. Games of depth is just one of the many factors that help people decide.
I also agree that MMORPG.COM is not really the place for this debate, but it comes up often, and the console always gets a bad rap. I see the upside to consoles and many people do not. So, I like to give the consoles the backing they are due. I never start these debates, I just jump in and help defend consoles. The majority of the crowd here is against them because this site is about a genre that is ruled by the PC. I play MMORG's, I play RPGs on my PC. My recent favorite game is a PC game (NWN). But that does not make consoles any more inferior.
So, I think you and I may have finally hammered this out and come eye to eye. We seem to agree on most points. It just didn't start out with us defining our side well enough, maybe.
If you are ever in town, Albany, Oregon area (near Oregon State University), shoot me a PM and we'll get a beer and play some games. Don't worry about bringing your PC, we'll play a split screen XBox game. (Just taking a final jab in jest
)
First, I thank you for your apology and I offer mine. I lose my head a bit when I feel someone is degrading what I do for a living. I apologize for many of my remarks and once again thank you for yours.
I think xbox live is a good idea for the console world. Works well and its fortunate that the people running it and the design is solid. I worry though about putting all my online gaming in the hands of one group or network as some compnaies might manage somethign very well, others might not. Its a tradeoff really I see. Computers take some extra work for network games, but you get more choice. Xbox live gives you less trouble while trading off some options.
In all fairness, I think xbox live is a good idea and I dont know of a better alternative for consoles than what they have done. After all, when im gaming on a console, I dont wanna have to try and configure ports, and change network setting manually. Press the on button and it works - thats what I want.
I like my consoles and they server their place and yes, I will be getting a xbox 2 when released.
As you said, I think we have come closer to eye to eye and I think in the end it was a productive conversation to really get itno the meat of the issue.
As a side note, I was dissapointed this year at E3 that they did not show xbox 2, but the big thing they did show was the cross platform development system they want to use so that (supposedly) there will be no ports required for pc -> console/console -> pc. Could be interesting (I want fable for my laptop
) turn of events. No more waiting for games to be ported.
Im looking forward to kotor 2, but not looking forward to waiting months after release on xbox for it to come out on pc, heh. I travel alot so I invested in a power laptop so I can play games during those boring nights at the hotel. Be nice to combine both sets of games and be able to choose whatever you in the mood for.
Again thanks for the conversation and I am glad that after a little give and take we came to conclusion.
Thanks for the offer, Ill take you up on yoru offer if im ever there. Im in San Diego, CA so if your ever here, I can show you round.
"I wasnt gonna just ram it home. I was gonna lube it up and ease it in there inch by inch....like a gentleman." - Hank
XBox 2. Rumor has it, Bill Gates will be showing it off at CES in a few months...
"Wednesday, January 5th at 6.30pm PST"
So many rumors... multiple processors is rumored for both the XBox 2 and the PS3...
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But many Nintendo "ROMs" are bing passed around. Not defending their Intellectual property does not make it legal. Copyright laws are copyright laws.
[/quote]
Actually.......
Copyright laws are copyright laws true enough, but there is a copyright law that states that if you do not defend your copyright rights you lose them.
Ergo because they do not stop the people passing around abandonware(or even attempt to, or even make a show of attempting to) they have lost the rights to that software and it is now public domain.
Debatable in court of course, it's very easy for them to lie and say "We didn't know about it until just now!" but strictly interpertated they are legal now that the rights holders havfe not attempted to shut them down.
Aahhh, but Nintendo does defend theirs. Host them on a website that is easily connected to you and see what happens...
Most of the sites that host these ROMs are in foreign countries that will not respect the laws or the sites move around and change so much that it is difficult for the correct owners to do anything about it...
But, there are reasons sites like MAME take the stance they do. They allow no discussion of ROMs that have not been explicitly released into the public domain. In fact, I think there is like 13 ROMs or something like that, of the thousands that their emulator supports, that they allow to be discussed on their website, because they have proven to be public domain.
It is a gray area, and you are playing with your livelihood if you decide to flaunt your beliefe in this "AbandonWare" scheme.
I dont see PC MMORPG's going anywhere anytime soon, and I believe console MMORPG's will continue to come at a decent pace as well. Truth be told, if anything we'll probably see a lot more multi-platform MMO's such as FFXI in the future, especially with the next generation of console systems not far off keeping the gaming appetites of both sides of the track sufficiently sated in the years to come.