Originally posted by Khalathwyr Actually, the world I live in is quite nice, thanks for your interest. I just don't have the blinders on that some have in thinking this title will be the next best thing since sliced bread as some do. I don't recall saying any aspect will "SUCK" however I'm observant enough to read all of what they have said and realize they aren't talking more than a sentence or two about those other aspects. I know that story is their key component they wish to push and should get alot of face time. I'm just also of the belief that those other systems should be getting more face time than they are (which is not to say they should be getting more than the story talk, just more than they are if Bioware had any intention of of doing more than the bare minimum. Hmm, so negative assumptions based on a lack of information is fine, but positive assumptions based on the same lack of information implies "blinders" .. ? .. you're aware that blinders would insinuate that one is intentionally refusing to see something, whereas in this case we're talking about something that can't be seen. So it's a criticism that doesn't really apply.
Bioware is concentrating on the story because it's something that's never really been done before and they're intentionally marketing the game towards RPG fans in an attempt to assimilate more players into the MMO genre. If they'd stood up at E3 and talked for 30 minutes about how the game would have raiding, PVP and crafting, the overwhelming response would be "meh well, so what? .. every MMO does". They've already said that the game will have those elements; what more could they say about them that would entive their target market? Thanks for answering my question. As it appears, from your second response, it is heading down the route of personal criticisms, it's safe to say we have nothing further to talk about. Heh, indignancy should replace a response, not be tacked on to the end of one to discourage disagreement.
I have no intent to "discourage disagreement". I just don't have time to disagree at the adolescent level of making personal jabs about others lives in the guise of debate/disagreement. I've disagreed with SingsofDeath countless times and yet we manage to stay on topic and not make personal attacks or analysis of the other. That is part and parsel of your repertoire, it seems, evidence again calling me indignant, lol. Let me reassure you that the last 2 lines I wrote weren't expressing any strong displeasure at your verbal jabs. They were just stating facts. Just the same as the fact that I don't particulary feel to engage in such banter.
So, once again, cheers.
Shame you preferred to end the discussion rather than respond to my points, but that's your choice and I'll respect it by not pressing the issue or responding to the "adolescent" comment or the lukewarm jibe at my "repertoirte"; but my "indignant" comment wasn't an insult, and nor was it intended to offend. Apologies if it did.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
And, unfortunately, that is the nature of Bioware. they don't talk alot about their games in production until it is very near release. Anyone who has followed a bioware game can attest to that. If, once the information starts truly flowing, it turns out Vogel was full of it and they do have a robust crafting system, then yeah, I will give this title at leas 30 days. It's just that, for me, everything that has been said (and not said, lol) about crafting and the other systems leaves room for doubt on how much effort they are actually putting into those systems. Granted, we can only speculate, as you suggest, at this point. I just think it does a disservice to only speculate to the positive. So much of that has been done recently with companies who for all purposes had very good reputations. There is a real possibility that more of the same can happen here and that possibility in my view shouldn't be hushed off into some corner. Yes, some folks take it too far like chicken little. I don't advocate that view. But just as others (myself included) tout Bioware's story telling ability, we also have to realize they haven't really made a game using any of those other "MMO aspects/systems". The doubt I personally express is not that of that they can't do it in great detail. It's more of "will they?" And again, based on words from Vogel's mouth, I don't think they want to. *shrug*
I just have to throw out there, that the "they" you're referring to have made MMO's before. Bioware hired quite a few devs with MMO backgrounds even placing them in charge of the product.
I know that, lol. I just have to throw out there that in several of my posts I mention, in specific, the names Vogel and Walton. "They" are essentially in charge of this project and "they" are the ones that worry me, lol. My fault for not going into greater detail there. So I'm worried about "their" (Vogel and Walton) direction and "their" (the Bioware originals who haven't done an MMO before) take on implementing what they can of those systems that "they" (again, Vogel and Walton) will let them implement.
I need a crown and coke after that. Or some Captain Morgan on the rocks, lol!
I know what you mean, x-swg devs and all. There's quite a few names on the dev list that bring those same concerns.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It scares me when I hear Vogel's name in the same sentence as Star Wars.. Last time those words were used in the same sentence it spelled "screwed the pooch".. If I was Bioware I wouldn't publisize Vogel's name with Star Wars.. I still have a very very fresh memory of SWG pre-cu
Originally posted by Khalathwyr Just curious. So, after you re-roll and play through all 8 classes to get all 8 storylines, then what are you going to do? Crafting, will most likely be barely functional at best based on Vogel's stance. I guess you could play through all of the classes again and choose the opposite path through the story. But then what? Even the book quests took some time in LOTRO because some of them required a group. From the way Bioware has talked you can do "your story" solo. This to me says that it can be done faster than the book quests in LOTRO, and I finished the book quests that were in at launch in 2-3 months. I'd doubt they were going to add the level of content they have for each class' "story" (x2 for paths) on a fairly regular basis. So...what does one do when they re-rolled and done all the story?
I'm not particularly fond of crafting. And I have even less interest in the pursuits of a 'player-driven' economy.
So what would I do in Khalathwyr's ideal Star Wars MMO? Just curious.
Originally posted by Khalathwyr I just don't particularly think that it will have any lasting depth or be any good. I fully believe the story parts will be well-done, however, story alone, just like combat alone (ahem, Funcom), will not make a game that keeps Khalathwyr around for a long time.
Not to be nitpicky, but argumentum ad populum always rubs me the wrong way.
The trailer hooked me. (hmmm ... Maybe I shouldn't admit that.)
A lot has been made of story but for me unless story can be nailed down to something playable the word is meaningless. So I look to Kotor and mass effect for what Bioware means by constantly mentioning story. Maybe it's not what Bioware means by story but it can't be that bad of a guess. In any case at least it's something concrete alot of gamers have experienced. Making it much easier to talk about what a new mmorpg might be like with story as it's key distinguishing feature.
That is the point where the conflict starts for me. I see how Bioware could make a great kotor 3 single player rpg just like the others. What I am unconvinced of is why that would be more enjoyable online.
Granted they aren't making kotor 3. It's a mmorpg, bringing a whole set of problems and questions to mind. Looking at what's been said so far and if kotor and mass effect describe what bioware means by story then I don't see how story in anyway changes the biggest problems I have with mmorpgs; static worlds and treadmills.
Seeing as a number of people here have expressed strong opinions in favor of Bioware having so far described a game that has either improved on or solved the common mmorpg problems I would be really interested in hearing any ideas that show how story, like in Bioware's kotor or mass effect rpgs, improves on the ugly aspects of a static world and treadmills in mmorpgs. Or, if you want to come at it the other way, why kotor would have been better online.
Everyone seems like there on the breaking point for information these days. I've been reading these threads constantly for the last couple of days (And having a little chuckle myself as I go through some peoples comments) it just has to show that there has been so many arguments of what wont be or what if... and that, but I know you've seen it all already. The people getting so worked up about it is what makes it all that more interesting cause it leads to my main point. Be you one of the 3 main groups and no I'm not including the die hard fans and the so called trolls. (Which I'm offended by since my WOW character was one... just kidding) your all helping the cause .
Oh... the groups let me get started on that one... this might be fun afterall. (Don't worry I wont bash you to much) I mean the ones who cling to the odd theory that there doing nothing over there but sitting around drinking coffee... cause the idea of the game failing since there hiding what they don't have and lying to the community (Witch makes no sense cause how are they lying when they havn't even told you yet otherwise) would only work with that logic. If you know as much as the next guy, which is didily squat why post that they already failed (Yes I'm a hyprocrit get to know me better and you'll learn that) The other group has to be the ones who makes up whatever floats there boat at the time... some of these things you'd think came to them in a dream or something. Lastly it has to be the group who dosent care (I'm also not talknig about the guy pulling a tantrum for having a storyline in a game... of all the things in the world OH NOES!!! ) and just comments to make other people look bad after they say some idiotic line and defending the game. (I kinda like these people) There the people who make the community look good and make a game have a chanche before they even tried it. Hi-five to you guys. That was off topic but it had a point your all working up hype for this game and this is exactly what they want, They want people arguing over it. This leads to people wanting more information, and looking back for the first person with leaked news or updates. Ill try to explain there was a episode of South Park once where Cartman bought a amusement park jsut for himself, but he made a commerical advertising it than later saying you cant have it. This led to human nature kicking in making everyone suddenly crying to get in. The hype was made not for having an awesome product (Since no-one went when it was open) but not letting someone have a product. He slowly let people in to help pay for workers, sorta like with Bioware letting little by little out on end building hype like no other before. The amusement park went popular using this strategy. I think Biowares kinda on the same terms (It's Star wars, the tittle sells itself... having KOTOR on it only gains it more strength) dont you agree? Everyones wanting more arnt they... yet its not even close to release.
P.S Ill edit more in later, Other than that I've seen the movies but I enjoyed the games more... Including Republic Commando (I hope someone heard of it), KOTOR 1&2 and finnaly Battlefront. Id play more but I got an Xbox and 360.
Could just be me, but I am fairly confident that this guy just said absolutely nothing.
Originally posted by Khalathwyr Just curious. So, after you re-roll and play through all 8 classes to get all 8 storylines, then what are you going to do? Crafting, will most likely be barely functional at best based on Vogel's stance. I guess you could play through all of the classes again and choose the opposite path through the story. But then what? Even the book quests took some time in LOTRO because some of them required a group. From the way Bioware has talked you can do "your story" solo. This to me says that it can be done faster than the book quests in LOTRO, and I finished the book quests that were in at launch in 2-3 months. I'd doubt they were going to add the level of content they have for each class' "story" (x2 for paths) on a fairly regular basis. So...what does one do when they re-rolled and done all the story?
I'm not particularly fond of crafting. And I have even less interest in the pursuits of a 'player-driven' economy.
So what would I do in Khalathwyr's ideal Star Wars MMO? Just curious.
Not really sure what you would do as I'm not you (and as such don't know what you like; you've only pointed out what you don't) and you'd probably verbally crucify any suggestions I'd make. Suffice it to say I see merits in themepark systems as well as sandbox systems, and any game I'd put together would have elements of both.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Originally posted by Khalathwyr I just don't particularly think that it will have any lasting depth or be any good. I fully believe the story parts will be well-done, however, story alone, just like combat alone (ahem, Funcom), will not make a game that keeps Khalathwyr around for a long time.
Not to be nitpicky, but argumentum ad populum always rubs me the wrong way.
People rewriting my words rubs me the wrong way. I'd much rather they just state their countering viewpoint if they disagree with what I write, quoting me if necessary.
Either way, your rewrite is incorrect as, factually, I'm not the only one (even if you disagree with my "the majority" statement) for which that applies. Would have been more accurate to substitute "many", "more than a few", "quite a number" in reference to people who aren't content with a singularly depthful system surronded by various shallow gameplay systems. Again, AoC illustrates this with the additive of many gameplay bugs.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Originally posted by Khalathwyr Not really sure what you would do as I'm not you (and as such don't know what you like; you've only pointed out what you don't) and you'd probably verbally crucify any suggestions I'd make. Suffice it to say I see merits in themepark systems as well as sandbox systems, and any game I'd put together would have elements of both.
That's no guarantee your game would fare any better in regard to replay value or long term appeal.
Regardless, do you see the irony in your response? Or was that intended?
Originally posted by Khalathwyr Not really sure what you would do as I'm not you (and as such don't know what you like; you've only pointed out what you don't) and you'd probably verbally crucify any suggestions I'd make. Suffice it to say I see merits in themepark systems as well as sandbox systems, and any game I'd put together would have elements of both.
That's no guarantee your game would fare any better in regard to replay value or long term appeal.
Regardless, do you see the irony in your response? Or was that intended?
There aren't many things in gaming, or life for that matter, that are guarantees. In my view it's a matter of taking as many options as you can that may lead/aid in result of the desired effect and wishing for the best.
I see a couple of different ironies in my response. Working as intended.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Originally posted by Khalathwyr There aren't many things in gaming, or life for that matter, that are guarantees. In my view it's a matter of taking as many options as you can that may lead/aid in result of the desired effect and wishing for the best. I see a couple of different ironies in my response. Working as intended.
For whatever it's worth, I share some of your skepticism and concerns (particularly in regard to Vogel/Walton). And despite my personal lack of enthusiasm for crafting/economies, I would take no issue with the inclusion of robust and enjoyable content of that nature for those who do (assuming I can opt out of it).
Comments
I have no intent to "discourage disagreement". I just don't have time to disagree at the adolescent level of making personal jabs about others lives in the guise of debate/disagreement. I've disagreed with SingsofDeath countless times and yet we manage to stay on topic and not make personal attacks or analysis of the other. That is part and parsel of your repertoire, it seems, evidence again calling me indignant, lol. Let me reassure you that the last 2 lines I wrote weren't expressing any strong displeasure at your verbal jabs. They were just stating facts. Just the same as the fact that I don't particulary feel to engage in such banter.
So, once again, cheers.
Shame you preferred to end the discussion rather than respond to my points, but that's your choice and I'll respect it by not pressing the issue or responding to the "adolescent" comment or the lukewarm jibe at my "repertoirte"; but my "indignant" comment wasn't an insult, and nor was it intended to offend. Apologies if it did.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I just have to throw out there, that the "they" you're referring to have made MMO's before. Bioware hired quite a few devs with MMO backgrounds even placing them in charge of the product.
I know that, lol. I just have to throw out there that in several of my posts I mention, in specific, the names Vogel and Walton. "They" are essentially in charge of this project and "they" are the ones that worry me, lol. My fault for not going into greater detail there. So I'm worried about "their" (Vogel and Walton) direction and "their" (the Bioware originals who haven't done an MMO before) take on implementing what they can of those systems that "they" (again, Vogel and Walton) will let them implement.
I need a crown and coke after that. Or some Captain Morgan on the rocks, lol!
I know what you mean, x-swg devs and all. There's quite a few names on the dev list that bring those same concerns.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It scares me when I hear Vogel's name in the same sentence as Star Wars.. Last time those words were used in the same sentence it spelled "screwed the pooch".. If I was Bioware I wouldn't publisize Vogel's name with Star Wars.. I still have a very very fresh memory of SWG pre-cu
I'm not particularly fond of crafting. And I have even less interest in the pursuits of a 'player-driven' economy.
So what would I do in Khalathwyr's ideal Star Wars MMO? Just curious.
Not to be nitpicky, but argumentum ad populum always rubs me the wrong way.
The trailer hooked me. (hmmm ... Maybe I shouldn't admit that.)
A lot has been made of story but for me unless story can be nailed down to something playable the word is meaningless. So I look to Kotor and mass effect for what Bioware means by constantly mentioning story. Maybe it's not what Bioware means by story but it can't be that bad of a guess. In any case at least it's something concrete alot of gamers have experienced. Making it much easier to talk about what a new mmorpg might be like with story as it's key distinguishing feature.
That is the point where the conflict starts for me. I see how Bioware could make a great kotor 3 single player rpg just like the others. What I am unconvinced of is why that would be more enjoyable online.
Granted they aren't making kotor 3. It's a mmorpg, bringing a whole set of problems and questions to mind. Looking at what's been said so far and if kotor and mass effect describe what bioware means by story then I don't see how story in anyway changes the biggest problems I have with mmorpgs; static worlds and treadmills.
Seeing as a number of people here have expressed strong opinions in favor of Bioware having so far described a game that has either improved on or solved the common mmorpg problems I would be really interested in hearing any ideas that show how story, like in Bioware's kotor or mass effect rpgs, improves on the ugly aspects of a static world and treadmills in mmorpgs. Or, if you want to come at it the other way, why kotor would have been better online.
Could just be me, but I am fairly confident that this guy just said absolutely nothing.
I am also somewhat concerned about the lack of info/recognition of the MMORPG aspects of the game.
So far we know that story is important, and that there are predetermined classes.
Players who are concerned with actual in-game mechanics and not simply the IP have little to go on.
I'm not particularly fond of crafting. And I have even less interest in the pursuits of a 'player-driven' economy.
So what would I do in Khalathwyr's ideal Star Wars MMO? Just curious.
Not really sure what you would do as I'm not you (and as such don't know what you like; you've only pointed out what you don't) and you'd probably verbally crucify any suggestions I'd make. Suffice it to say I see merits in themepark systems as well as sandbox systems, and any game I'd put together would have elements of both.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Not to be nitpicky, but argumentum ad populum always rubs me the wrong way.
People rewriting my words rubs me the wrong way. I'd much rather they just state their countering viewpoint if they disagree with what I write, quoting me if necessary.
Either way, your rewrite is incorrect as, factually, I'm not the only one (even if you disagree with my "the majority" statement) for which that applies. Would have been more accurate to substitute "many", "more than a few", "quite a number" in reference to people who aren't content with a singularly depthful system surronded by various shallow gameplay systems. Again, AoC illustrates this with the additive of many gameplay bugs.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
That's no guarantee your game would fare any better in regard to replay value or long term appeal.
Regardless, do you see the irony in your response? Or was that intended?
That's no guarantee your game would fare any better in regard to replay value or long term appeal.
Regardless, do you see the irony in your response? Or was that intended?
There aren't many things in gaming, or life for that matter, that are guarantees. In my view it's a matter of taking as many options as you can that may lead/aid in result of the desired effect and wishing for the best.
I see a couple of different ironies in my response. Working as intended.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
For whatever it's worth, I share some of your skepticism and concerns (particularly in regard to Vogel/Walton). And despite my personal lack of enthusiasm for crafting/economies, I would take no issue with the inclusion of robust and enjoyable content of that nature for those who do (assuming I can opt out of it).
Oh and irony? Always appreciated!