I feel like beating a dead horse... (where did i put my stick)
as far as the post goes like anything there is a large amount of decent MMO's out there not evrey one has to play W.O.W or the "next" wow whatever there are games for people who love to grind and there are (al be it less) games for those who dont like to grind if you dont care much for a game fair enogh no one is forcing you to play plenty of F2P mmo's out there for those that dont have deep pockets.
In other words, you can play live for 18 hrs, and study for 6; I can play live for 2 hrs, and study for 22. You can't accomplish the same things live that you can studying, and vice versa. I will have advanced aspects of my character that the powergamer cannot have accomplished in the same amount of time, and vice versa.
Over time, this equalizes the characters, because what the powergamer can accomplish live will take me much, much longer, but in the meantime I'm slowly building attributes and abilities the powergamer will not have unless he spends as much time offline as me.
There are only 24 hours in a day. You can only invest your character in Alganon in any particular activity 24 hrs one day, whether it is mostly online or offline time. How one distributes that time affects what can be accomplished/gained by any character. It doesn't promise that everyone will be an equal toon in all regards, it just promises that you can advance various characteristics of your toon an equal amount of time as anyone else playing the game. I don't think that the argument "all MMOG's should be hard and require job-like commitments of time and effort to excel in" is one that needs to be seriously addressed.
Nobody is making the Argument that "all MMOGs should be hard and require job-like commitments of time and effort to excel in"
I am saying that gaming should be hard, not easy, it should require thinking and problem solving. It should be challenging. Time has nothing to do with it. PERIOD.
People need to understand that time does not equal effort. I know many people that play less then 5 hours a week and still have a great time playing games but they also do not worry about if they have the best stuff or if others have better stuff. They just enjoy what they have gained and what they still want to work for. But these people are rare, most people compare themselfs to others and want what others have instead of being happy for what they have and what they have earned.
Again, you will still behind the hardcore gamers, you will not be equal at all, you will still behind them in advancements. Even with this system. All this system will do is allow you to improve your toon while not playing him which makes zero sense. Its asking for free rewards without having to put in the effort. Which is what the world is coming too I guess but still not a good thing.
In other words, you can play live for 18 hrs, and study for 6; I can play live for 2 hrs, and study for 22. You can't accomplish the same things live that you can studying, and vice versa. I will have advanced aspects of my character that the powergamer cannot have accomplished in the same amount of time, and vice versa. Over time, this equalizes the characters, because what the powergamer can accomplish live will take me much, much longer, but in the meantime I'm slowly building attributes and abilities the powergamer will not have unless he spends as much time offline as me.
Again. A smart gamer will find the happy medium between off line and on line and will be further ahead of you. This will not equalize the characters. It will allow the smart hardcore gamer to gain both off line and on line accomplishments and be that much better then your character.
That is why the system will not work as you think it will. it will reward those who are smart and can put in the time live.
If this system works it will be a great way to give 2 very different play styles a way to both enjoy and feel rewarded at end game. The hardcore raider can still raid to become leet in a month while the casual person will be able to study their way to leetness in a much longer time.
There are no other live players around when I play a single-player mmo.
There is no constantly updated and changing, evolving content. When you're trying to convince someone they want something they don't want, you've already lost the argument.
Thread should have ended here. Well said Meleagar.
I just checked out the Alganon site in some detail, to really progress your character fully you do have to play and do quests and level up your skills and gain new abilities etc.
The offline "study" program looks like it's a series of modifiers. (This was from the production tools video)
Things like "Anatomy" and "Anatomy+1" you can study while offline, my guess is these things will add modifiers to your character like +critical strike chance that increases with each level.
So yes, your modifiers based on these studies will keep up with any power-gamer, but you will still have to play to up your skills through combat/crafting and to gain additional abilities, and they seem to have a system where you also assign points of some kind to specialize your character like Talent points kind of thing.
It's a very interesting system, a nice hybrid mix of a EVE style skill raise = time, a skill raise = use like UO/DF, and an ability/trait/talent increase (probably thourgh EXP gains) like WoW or Lotro etc.
Again. A smart gamer will find the happy medium between off line and on line and will be further ahead of you. This will not equalize the characters. It will allow the smart hardcore gamer to gain both off line and on line accomplishments and be that much better then your character. That is why the system will not work as you think it will. it will reward those who are smart and can put in the time live.
They can't get ahead of me in all areas of character advancement. This is what you don't seem to want to understand. It doesn't matter what "balance" of live-time vs offline-study they "figure out"; they have the same 24 hrs to advance as I have.
For whatever reason, you seem to be very emotionally invested in your insistence that "not everyone will be equal". Okay. Not everyone will be equal. That's not my point; my point is that will have an equal investment of TIME into the game as anyone else via the study system; If I invest 10x more time studying than another guy, I will have developed my character in ways he could not have. He may still be able to beat me in PVP or be a higher combat level, but I will have skills or attributes or profession advancements he simply cannot have unless he spends an equal amount of time in study.
I'm sorry this seems to bother you so. It's one game. I'm one guy that wants to play that kind of game. There are probably a few others that do, too, maybe even enough so that the game can survive the long haul. What do you care? It's on game, for crying out loud.
If this system works it will be a great way to give 2 very different play styles a way to both enjoy and feel rewarded at end game. The hardcore raider can still raid to become leet in a month while the casual person will be able to study their way to leetness in a much longer time.
Roger that. Look at it this way; elite powergamer in an uberguild levels up fast and starts raiding, in a couple of months what do they have to do? Wait for content? Answer: set their offline study system and start developing their characters. But wait; they still have to spend a lot of hours raiding .. for all their other guild members. It might take a year of hardcore raiding to get it all, which impinges on their study time.
What are the casual players doing during this time? They are far behind the curve as far as overall player level, but they've already had months of study advancements. When they eventually get to the level cap, they have also studied the lore and crafting advancements necessary to gain the rewards that the raiders have been acquiring for months for all their guildies, so now they are getting the end-game rewards via the study system, plus they have additional stat bonuses.
Not a perfect system, but pretty sweet, and well worth a shot.
Again. A smart gamer will find the happy medium between off line and on line and will be further ahead of you. This will not equalize the characters. It will allow the smart hardcore gamer to gain both off line and on line accomplishments and be that much better then your character. That is why the system will not work as you think it will. it will reward those who are smart and can put in the time live.
They can't get ahead of me in all areas of character advancement. This is what you don't seem to want to understand. It doesn't matter what "balance" of live-time vs offline-study they "figure out"; they have the same 24 hrs to advance as I have.
For whatever reason, you seem to be very emotionally invested in your insistence that "not everyone will be equal". Okay. Not everyone will be equal. That's not my point; my point is that will have an equal investment of TIME into the game as anyone else via the study system; If I invest 10x more time studying than another guy, I will have developed my character in ways he could not have. He may still be able to beat me in PVP or be a higher combat level, but I will have skills or attributes or profession advancements he simply cannot have unless he spends an equal amount of time in study.
I'm sorry this seems to bother you so. It's one game. I'm one guy that wants to play that kind of game. There are probably a few others that do, too, maybe even enough so that the game can survive the long haul. What do you care? It's on game, for crying out loud.
because its people like you that are ruining the genre for the rest of us. You want to be given rewards for nothing, for no effort. You want it handed to you without having to think. You want free things. That is what is ruining the genre at this time. Easy mode gameplay that provides instant gradification.
That is why I care, your ruining the very genre I enjoy. It has been going down hill for many years and it is getting worst and worst.
No developer will make a hard challenging game now a days because its they think they can make the next WoW game. Simple, easy, risk free rewards.
You are asking that your time be rewarded and then in the next post stated that time invested should not be important. So maybe you should make up your mind.
If this system works it will be a great way to give 2 very different play styles a way to both enjoy and feel rewarded at end game. The hardcore raider can still raid to become leet in a month while the casual person will be able to study their way to leetness in a much longer time.
Roger that. Look at it this way; elite powergamer in an uberguild levels up fast and starts raiding, in a couple of months what do they have to do? Wait for content? Answer: set their offline study system and start developing their characters. But wait; they still have to spend a lot of hours raiding .. for all their other guild members. It might take a year of hardcore raiding to get it all, which impinges on their study time.
What are the casual players doing during this time? They are far behind the curve as far as overall player level, but they've already had months of study advancements. When they eventually get to the level cap, they have also studied the lore and crafting advancements necessary to gain the rewards that the raiders have been acquiring for months for all their guildies, so now they are getting the end-game rewards via the study system, plus they have additional stat bonuses.
Not a perfect system, but pretty sweet, and well worth a shot.
Again, you want the same rewards as the guy that puts in the time and EFFROT without putting in the time or effort. That is wrong on so many levels... that is what is wrong with the world we live in today. That is what is wrong with the MMO genre today.
You guys want everything without having to put in any effort. Why cant you be happy with what you earn, why do you have to get the same rewards as the raiders? Why do you feel you deserve these rewards? Why do you have to compare yourself to another player?
This the problem. Instant gradification, easy rewards, no risk, no challenge. It is ruining a once great genre.
because its people like you that are ruining the genre for the rest of us. You want to be given rewards for nothing, for no effort. You want it handed to you without having to think. You want free things. That is what is ruining the genre at this time. Easy mode gameplay that provides instant gradification. That is why I care, your ruining the very genre I enjoy. It has been going down hill for many years and it is getting worst and worst. No developer will make a hard challenging game now a days because its they think they can make the next WoW game. Simple, easy, risk free rewards. You are asking that your time be rewarded and then in the next post stated that time invested should not be important. So maybe you should make up your mind.
Calm down skippy.
Have you heard of EVE, Mortal Online, Darkfall, Earthrise... these games are being made. Go play them. We'll leave you alone to play them, go ahead.
These games just aren't as popular. Does that upset you?
Is it important to you that these games have more subs the Alganon or WoW or LotrO or any other "casual" games because, to you, the GAME has to "win" versus a "noob casual" game?
Is it too simple to ask that you simply find a game you enjoy playing, and play it?
because its people like you that are ruining the genre for the rest of us. You want to be given rewards for nothing, for no effort. You want it handed to you without having to think. You want free things. That is what is ruining the genre at this time. Easy mode gameplay that provides instant gradification. That is why I care, your ruining the very genre I enjoy. It has been going down hill for many years and it is getting worst and worst. No developer will make a hard challenging game now a days because its they think they can make the next WoW game. Simple, easy, risk free rewards. You are asking that your time be rewarded and then in the next post stated that time invested should not be important. So maybe you should make up your mind.
Calm down skippy.
Have you heard of EVE, Mortal Online, Darkfall, Earthrise... these games are being made. Go play them. We'll leave you alone to play them, go ahead.
These games just aren't as popular. Does that upset you?
Is it important to you that these games have more subs the Alganon or WoW or LotrO or any other "casual" games because, to you, the GAME has to "win" versus a "noob casual" game?
Is it too simple to ask that you simply find a game you enjoy playing, and play it?
Eve is not a game for me. I want to fly my ship not click and watch. I played it for a bit.
Darkfall sucks, it is horriable. I beta tested it.
Mortal Online looks good.
Earthrise is not my type of game.
I do not have to win a game, i want to feel like I earned what I got. I want to think and problem solve while playing a game. I want to feel like I earned my rewards. I like accomplishments.
Its not just the gaming industry its the world..... Everything is about instant gradification and making everyone feel like a winner. We are not teach people how to deal with failure.
If this system works it will be a great way to give 2 very different play styles a way to both enjoy and feel rewarded at end game. The hardcore raider can still raid to become leet in a month while the casual person will be able to study their way to leetness in a much longer time.
Roger that. Look at it this way; elite powergamer in an uberguild levels up fast and starts raiding, in a couple of months what do they have to do? Wait for content? Answer: set their offline study system and start developing their characters. But wait; they still have to spend a lot of hours raiding .. for all their other guild members. It might take a year of hardcore raiding to get it all, which impinges on their study time.
What are the casual players doing during this time? They are far behind the curve as far as overall player level, but they've already had months of study advancements. When they eventually get to the level cap, they have also studied the lore and crafting advancements necessary to gain the rewards that the raiders have been acquiring for months for all their guildies, so now they are getting the end-game rewards via the study system, plus they have additional stat bonuses.
Not a perfect system, but pretty sweet, and well worth a shot.
Again, you want the same rewards as the guy that puts in the time and EFFROT without putting in the time or effort. That is wrong on so many levels... that is what is wrong with the world we live in today. That is what is wrong with the MMO genre today.
You guys want everything without having to put in any effort. Why cant you be happy with what you earn, why do you have to get the same rewards as the raiders? Why do you feel you deserve these rewards? Why do you have to compare yourself to another player?
This the problem. Instant gradification, easy rewards, no risk, no challenge. It is ruining a once great genre.
Boy some people are thick or you are simply reading what you want to. Where did anyone say that this study system wouldn't take time and effort? You do understand the concept of time correct? 40 hours is equal to 40 hours whether that time is spent in one week, two, three, four, etc; really I hope I am getting through to you. No one wants instant gratification they simply want other options to raiding.
UO had it right it took time and effort to create a good character not this childish loot whoring.
If this system works it will be a great way to give 2 very different play styles a way to both enjoy and feel rewarded at end game. The hardcore raider can still raid to become leet in a month while the casual person will be able to study their way to leetness in a much longer time.
Roger that. Look at it this way; elite powergamer in an uberguild levels up fast and starts raiding, in a couple of months what do they have to do? Wait for content? Answer: set their offline study system and start developing their characters. But wait; they still have to spend a lot of hours raiding .. for all their other guild members. It might take a year of hardcore raiding to get it all, which impinges on their study time.
What are the casual players doing during this time? They are far behind the curve as far as overall player level, but they've already had months of study advancements. When they eventually get to the level cap, they have also studied the lore and crafting advancements necessary to gain the rewards that the raiders have been acquiring for months for all their guildies, so now they are getting the end-game rewards via the study system, plus they have additional stat bonuses.
Not a perfect system, but pretty sweet, and well worth a shot.
Again, you want the same rewards as the guy that puts in the time and EFFROT without putting in the time or effort. That is wrong on so many levels... that is what is wrong with the world we live in today. That is what is wrong with the MMO genre today.
You guys want everything without having to put in any effort. Why cant you be happy with what you earn, why do you have to get the same rewards as the raiders? Why do you feel you deserve these rewards? Why do you have to compare yourself to another player?
This the problem. Instant gradification, easy rewards, no risk, no challenge. It is ruining a once great genre.
Boy some people are thick or you are simply reading what you want to. Where did anyone say that this study system wouldn't take time and effort? You do understand the concept of time correct? 40 hours is equal to 40 hours whether that time is spent in one week, two, three, four, etc; really I hope I am getting through to you. No one wants instant gratification they simply want other options to raiding.
UO had it right it took time and effort to create a good character not this childish loot whoring.
So your trying to tell me that to pick your skills while off line and letting them train is going to take effort? Is that what you are trying to tell me? Because in EvE it does not take any effort at all.
Yes 40 hours is 40 hours but what does that have to do with anything?
How can you say they do not want instant gratification? They want the same rewards as the players that put in more effort and time.. So yes they want instant gratification. They want rewards without putting in the effort for them. That is instant gratification.
No, the OP said nothing about raiding, he said this systems gives him an option to keep up with those hardcore gamers that have a lot more time to invest in playing the game. This has nothing to do with raiding or not raiding and everything to do with gaining skills without playing the game.
This system is like saying you want to learn how to play professional baseball but you do not want to play baseball you want to listen to a how to tape while sleeping.
Eve is not a game for me. I want to fly my ship not click and watch. I played it for a bit. Darkfall sucks, it is horriable. I beta tested it. Mortal Online looks good. Earthrise is not my type of game. I do not have to win a game, i want to feel like I earned what I got. I want to think and problem solve while playing a game. I want to feel like I earned my rewards. I like accomplishments. Its not just the gaming industry its the world..... Everything is about instant gradification and making everyone feel like a winner. We are not teach people how to deal with failure.
I agree with you 150% here buddy.
But MMOs and games are NOT the place to teach failure and social exclusion and hardship... they are games... designed to be a RELEASE from the troubles of real life. Hence, ROLE PLAYING part of MMORPG.
Most people, and I can safely say "most" given sales/subscription numbers, would agree that a game is suppose to be fun. You can very easily feel you earned what you got and think and problem solve and earn your rewards in any game you deam as "casual."
This is your opinion, and I repsect that, that you want a game that is more "realistic" in terms of risk/reward and hardship/loss etc...
But you have to realize the vast majority do not want that game, and yes it sucks for people like you, but there ARE games being built for those who think the same... you can just never expect them to be AAA titles from the "big budget" guys.
Eve is not a game for me. I want to fly my ship not click and watch. I played it for a bit. Darkfall sucks, it is horriable. I beta tested it. Mortal Online looks good. Earthrise is not my type of game. I do not have to win a game, i want to feel like I earned what I got. I want to think and problem solve while playing a game. I want to feel like I earned my rewards. I like accomplishments. Its not just the gaming industry its the world..... Everything is about instant gradification and making everyone feel like a winner. We are not teach people how to deal with failure.
I agree with you 150% here buddy.
But MMOs and games are NOT the place to teach failure and social exclusion and hardship... they are games... designed to be a RELEASE from the troubles of real life. Hence, ROLE PLAYING part of MMORPG.
Most people, and I can safely say "most" given sales/subscription numbers, would agree that a game is suppose to be fun. You can very easily feel you earned what you got and think and problem solve and earn your rewards in any game you deam as "casual."
This is your opinion, and I repsect that, that you want a game that is more "realistic" in terms of risk/reward and hardship/loss etc...
But you have to realize the vast majority do not want that game, and yes it sucks for people like you, but there ARE games being built for those who think the same... you can just never expect them to be AAA titles from the "big budget" guys.
What I am saying is there is no reason why games cannot teach people that. Gaming is a huge industry, same with movies and music. Most people in my generation learn from these 3 things..... I am 27.
Games are not designed to be easy. Look at the first video games, sure pong was easy but how about Super mario? Zelda? Did they make them easy?
Gaming needs to be a challenge, it needs problem solving, these are the back bone of any game. The first few levels are easy then they get harder and harder till you beat them. Most people that play games play them to get a release from there RL problems. That is why I play them but that does not mean I want to turn my brain off and play a game.
I know I am in the minorty here and I can respect that most people like these new easy gameplay, instant gratification games but what I cannot understand or respect is gamers like the OP wanting the same rewards as people who put in the time and effort. Just like in RL, I bet the OP loves free hand outs, does not put forth the effort and thinks its unfair when a co worker gets a raise or promption and he/she does not.
That is what is wrong, Gaming, movies, TV, music, like it or not do teach people. They are tools and if used right can help alot in RL.
I play games to be challenged, to think, to problem solve. I LOVE PROBLEM SOLVING, its fun to me, I love the feeling I get when I solve a problem. That is why I play video games. All day at work I problem solve, figure things out but I do not get to solve problems that are fun to me. (network admin). So when I get home, I love playing video games because it allows me to play and problem solve. It allows me to lose myself in the game.
I am playing EQ1 again because its the only game that is released that still has some challenge and even EQ1 has been "dumbed" down and made easier.
Because old PC games and console games were designed by dorky adults for dorky adults.
You had to have a lot of technical know-how just to figure out how to install or hook up the things. Most people didn't know DOS commands or even how to hook up a VCR.
What has happened is that EVERYONE has gotten more technically savy.
There are 8 year old kids that know more about programming then I do, that could rip through a new game in half the time and get twice as high of scores.
The entire video game industry has shifted.
Games aren't really made for the small % (over all) of older, seasoned vets like us (I'm 25) they are made for the millions of teens and pre-teens who were raised on video game consoles and PC games, cell phones and instant messengers.
Games for older people are the really casual ones, suprisingly. Most popular game in the world? It's other Bejeweled or Hearts I think..
We few "hardcore" old school gamers are a dying breed. Just like the age of personal responsibility has been passed over for the "everyone is special and gets a gold star" crap we see now.
It sucks, but we have to deal with it.
Find games you enjoy, and play them. Don't be caught in the past or you'll end up a crotchity old hermit.
No, the OP said nothing about raiding, he said this systems gives him an option to keep up with those hardcore gamers that have a lot more time to invest in playing the game. This has nothing to do with raiding or not raiding and everything to do with gaining skills without playing the game. This system is like saying you want to learn how to play professional baseball but you do not want to play baseball you want to listen to a how to tape while sleeping.
Are you really going to argue that it is some kind of character flaw that people don't want to invest 4-10 hrs a day sitting in front of their computer banging the keys for the advancement of their character in an online game? And, are you really going to argue that someone playing an online game for 4-10 hours a day represents good character and work ethic, and is a gaming style that should be rewarded over all others?
For the rest of us, these games are just that - games. Pasttimes. We don't need a 2nd job. You can spend your 10 hrs a day binging the keyboard if you want; I'll move on to a game that doesn't require that I play the game like an employee in a Chinese shoe fctory.
Find games you enjoy, and play them. Don't be caught in the past or you'll end up a crotchity old hermit.
Ack, that's exactly what I've become!
Alganon sounds great in theory, in actual practice I'll bet it doesn't work out quite like the OP hopes. There still will be disparities that favor those who play a lot vs those who do not, be it in gear, character progression or just plain player skill.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Find games you enjoy, and play them. Don't be caught in the past or you'll end up a crotchity old hermit.
Ack, that's exactly what I've become!
Alganon sounds great in theory, in actual practice I'll bet it doesn't work out quite like the OP hopes. There still will be disparities that favor those who play a lot vs those who do not, be it in gear, character progression or just plain player skill.
I don't care about "disparities", all I want is the ability to advance my character while I'm offline, and the ability to get top rewards without raiding. For now, this is good enough. Games that do it better may follow.
So your trying to tell me that to pick your skills while off line and letting them train is going to take effort? Is that what you are trying to tell me? Because in EvE it does not take any effort at all.
Yes 40 hours is 40 hours but what does that have to do with anything?
How can you say they do not want instant gratification? They want the same rewards as the players that put in more effort and time.. So yes they want instant gratification. They want rewards without putting in the effort for them. That is instant gratification.
No, the OP said nothing about raiding, he said this systems gives him an option to keep up with those hardcore gamers that have a lot more time to invest in playing the game. This has nothing to do with raiding or not raiding and everything to do with gaining skills without playing the game.
This system is like saying you want to learn how to play professional baseball but you do not want to play baseball you want to listen to a how to tape while sleeping.
Ok one more time. The system is still under development but as I understand so far it is not a copy of Eve’s system. It is a hybrid between Eve and a standard mmo. So you can not simply study your way to power you have to actually play. What this system is supposed to do is bridge the gap between the dedicated casual players that has been playing for years vs the hardcore power gamer that has only been around for a couple months. Given enough time, if they stick around, the newer power gamer will probably out power the dedicated casual but the gap will be less then the loot based crap we have to play now.
So if you play 40 hours in a week to get elite gear that means I should be able to spend 40 over 4 weeks and have equal gear correct? Time and effort should be equal to time and effort after all.
How is studying for weeks instant gratification vs someone who raids for 4 hours? Really what part of IT WILL TAKE WEEKS OF STUDY can’t you grasp?
Sigh, I don’t care what the OP is saying for the 10th time. Listen to what I am telling you. (read this part slowly so it sinks in) You do not gain skill without playing, what the study system will do is buff the skills you already have or possible unlock new ones. So that a 2 year casual vet will be relatively equal in power to the couple month power gamer. It will not allow casual people to keep up with power gamers if they both start at the same time.
No this system is like studying game footage then going out and putting that learned knowledge to work.
No, the OP said nothing about raiding, he said this systems gives him an option to keep up with those hardcore gamers that have a lot more time to invest in playing the game. This has nothing to do with raiding or not raiding and everything to do with gaining skills without playing the game. This system is like saying you want to learn how to play professional baseball but you do not want to play baseball you want to listen to a how to tape while sleeping.
Are you really going to argue that it is some kind of character flaw that people don't want to invest 4-10 hrs a day sitting in front of their computer banging the keys for the advancement of their character in an online game? And, are you really going to argue that someone playing an online game for 4-10 hours a day represents good character and work ethic, and is a gaming style that should be rewarded over all others?
For the rest of us, these games are just that - games. Pasttimes. We don't need a 2nd job. You can spend your 10 hrs a day binging the keyboard if you want; I'll move on to a game that doesn't require that I play the game like an employee in a Chinese shoe fctory.
Again who said anything about a 2nd job. Never said it was a flaw if a person does not play 10+ hours a night. I simply said that someone that puts in 10+ hours a day should get better rewards then someone that puts in 2 hours a night. It is very simple
This is one of my hobbies. I make time to play games because I enjoy them. Do not give me this crap about a 2nd job. I play around 25 hours a week on avg. that is not that much. Instead of watching TV, I game. Instead of reading a book, I game. instead of going to the bar every night, I game. I still have a life, I work at a good job 8 hours a day. I go out with my friends, I party, drink and have my fun with girls and I still manage to make time for one of my favorite hobbies.... Gaming.
I play hockey, that is my other hobby. I play as much as I possiable can. I MAKE TIME FOR MY HOBBIES.
Yes someone that puts in more time and effort should get better rewards. That is exactly what I am saying.
Just like Doctors go to school for twice as long, they get better rewards. its very simple. The more effort you put into something the better rewards you get out of it. Its not that hard to understand really.
Just like in Sports, practice makes perfect. Not everyone can become professional sports players but that does not mean that they should make it easier to become a professional.
Nobody wants games to become a second job.... I just want them to require thinking. I do not like easy mode games. They bug the shit out of me, they represent all that is wrong in this world. I was raised to understand that the only way to get what you want in this world is though hard work and effort. That goes for everything in life.
How many hours a night do you watch TV?
What is so important that you cannot put 2 hours a night into a video game? I mean its 2 hours a night. That is 10 hours a week without counting weekends where most people have even more free time. 10 hours a week is very good and will allow you to advance in most MMOGs at a good pace.
You say I do not have a life because I spend my free time playing Video games. explain to me what "having a life" means. Anyone? Its always the same bullshit with you casual gamers. I have a real life, I cannot spend 10 hours a day in game like you. News flash I spend 3 to 5 hours a night in game and more on the weekends.
It's the increase of casual gamers, extreme soloists, and people like the OP that have ruined the MMORPG genre... Along with the devs who have listened to them.
No what is and has been ruining the mmo genre is everyone copying the EQ design model.
This whole thread reads like a marketing experiment for this Alganon game.. Hi , I like x and y in my mmo's, I bet there's alot of people like that..oh would you look at that, I just found this awesome game named Alganon that doas x and y really well.
*add random arguments to sucker people into a discussion while mentioning Alganon every 2nd sentence*
Comments
I feel like beating a dead horse... (where did i put my stick)
as far as the post goes like anything there is a large amount of decent MMO's out there not evrey one has to play W.O.W or the "next" wow whatever there are games for people who love to grind and there are (al be it less) games for those who dont like to grind if you dont care much for a game fair enogh no one is forcing you to play plenty of F2P mmo's out there for those that dont have deep pockets.
(woot found my stick) /smack ; /smack ; /cheer
In other words, you can play live for 18 hrs, and study for 6; I can play live for 2 hrs, and study for 22. You can't accomplish the same things live that you can studying, and vice versa. I will have advanced aspects of my character that the powergamer cannot have accomplished in the same amount of time, and vice versa.
Over time, this equalizes the characters, because what the powergamer can accomplish live will take me much, much longer, but in the meantime I'm slowly building attributes and abilities the powergamer will not have unless he spends as much time offline as me.
Nobody is making the Argument that "all MMOGs should be hard and require job-like commitments of time and effort to excel in"
I am saying that gaming should be hard, not easy, it should require thinking and problem solving. It should be challenging. Time has nothing to do with it. PERIOD.
People need to understand that time does not equal effort. I know many people that play less then 5 hours a week and still have a great time playing games but they also do not worry about if they have the best stuff or if others have better stuff. They just enjoy what they have gained and what they still want to work for. But these people are rare, most people compare themselfs to others and want what others have instead of being happy for what they have and what they have earned.
Again, you will still behind the hardcore gamers, you will not be equal at all, you will still behind them in advancements. Even with this system. All this system will do is allow you to improve your toon while not playing him which makes zero sense. Its asking for free rewards without having to put in the effort. Which is what the world is coming too I guess but still not a good thing.
Sooner or Later
Again. A smart gamer will find the happy medium between off line and on line and will be further ahead of you. This will not equalize the characters. It will allow the smart hardcore gamer to gain both off line and on line accomplishments and be that much better then your character.
That is why the system will not work as you think it will. it will reward those who are smart and can put in the time live.
Sooner or Later
If this system works it will be a great way to give 2 very different play styles a way to both enjoy and feel rewarded at end game. The hardcore raider can still raid to become leet in a month while the casual person will be able to study their way to leetness in a much longer time.
Thread should have ended here. Well said Meleagar.
I just checked out the Alganon site in some detail, to really progress your character fully you do have to play and do quests and level up your skills and gain new abilities etc.
The offline "study" program looks like it's a series of modifiers. (This was from the production tools video)
Things like "Anatomy" and "Anatomy+1" you can study while offline, my guess is these things will add modifiers to your character like +critical strike chance that increases with each level.
So yes, your modifiers based on these studies will keep up with any power-gamer, but you will still have to play to up your skills through combat/crafting and to gain additional abilities, and they seem to have a system where you also assign points of some kind to specialize your character like Talent points kind of thing.
It's a very interesting system, a nice hybrid mix of a EVE style skill raise = time, a skill raise = use like UO/DF, and an ability/trait/talent increase (probably thourgh EXP gains) like WoW or Lotro etc.
They can't get ahead of me in all areas of character advancement. This is what you don't seem to want to understand. It doesn't matter what "balance" of live-time vs offline-study they "figure out"; they have the same 24 hrs to advance as I have.
For whatever reason, you seem to be very emotionally invested in your insistence that "not everyone will be equal". Okay. Not everyone will be equal. That's not my point; my point is that will have an equal investment of TIME into the game as anyone else via the study system; If I invest 10x more time studying than another guy, I will have developed my character in ways he could not have. He may still be able to beat me in PVP or be a higher combat level, but I will have skills or attributes or profession advancements he simply cannot have unless he spends an equal amount of time in study.
I'm sorry this seems to bother you so. It's one game. I'm one guy that wants to play that kind of game. There are probably a few others that do, too, maybe even enough so that the game can survive the long haul. What do you care? It's on game, for crying out loud.
Roger that. Look at it this way; elite powergamer in an uberguild levels up fast and starts raiding, in a couple of months what do they have to do? Wait for content? Answer: set their offline study system and start developing their characters. But wait; they still have to spend a lot of hours raiding .. for all their other guild members. It might take a year of hardcore raiding to get it all, which impinges on their study time.
What are the casual players doing during this time? They are far behind the curve as far as overall player level, but they've already had months of study advancements. When they eventually get to the level cap, they have also studied the lore and crafting advancements necessary to gain the rewards that the raiders have been acquiring for months for all their guildies, so now they are getting the end-game rewards via the study system, plus they have additional stat bonuses.
Not a perfect system, but pretty sweet, and well worth a shot.
They can't get ahead of me in all areas of character advancement. This is what you don't seem to want to understand. It doesn't matter what "balance" of live-time vs offline-study they "figure out"; they have the same 24 hrs to advance as I have.
For whatever reason, you seem to be very emotionally invested in your insistence that "not everyone will be equal". Okay. Not everyone will be equal. That's not my point; my point is that will have an equal investment of TIME into the game as anyone else via the study system; If I invest 10x more time studying than another guy, I will have developed my character in ways he could not have. He may still be able to beat me in PVP or be a higher combat level, but I will have skills or attributes or profession advancements he simply cannot have unless he spends an equal amount of time in study.
I'm sorry this seems to bother you so. It's one game. I'm one guy that wants to play that kind of game. There are probably a few others that do, too, maybe even enough so that the game can survive the long haul. What do you care? It's on game, for crying out loud.
because its people like you that are ruining the genre for the rest of us. You want to be given rewards for nothing, for no effort. You want it handed to you without having to think. You want free things. That is what is ruining the genre at this time. Easy mode gameplay that provides instant gradification.
That is why I care, your ruining the very genre I enjoy. It has been going down hill for many years and it is getting worst and worst.
No developer will make a hard challenging game now a days because its they think they can make the next WoW game. Simple, easy, risk free rewards.
You are asking that your time be rewarded and then in the next post stated that time invested should not be important. So maybe you should make up your mind.
Sooner or Later
Roger that. Look at it this way; elite powergamer in an uberguild levels up fast and starts raiding, in a couple of months what do they have to do? Wait for content? Answer: set their offline study system and start developing their characters. But wait; they still have to spend a lot of hours raiding .. for all their other guild members. It might take a year of hardcore raiding to get it all, which impinges on their study time.
What are the casual players doing during this time? They are far behind the curve as far as overall player level, but they've already had months of study advancements. When they eventually get to the level cap, they have also studied the lore and crafting advancements necessary to gain the rewards that the raiders have been acquiring for months for all their guildies, so now they are getting the end-game rewards via the study system, plus they have additional stat bonuses.
Not a perfect system, but pretty sweet, and well worth a shot.
Again, you want the same rewards as the guy that puts in the time and EFFROT without putting in the time or effort. That is wrong on so many levels... that is what is wrong with the world we live in today. That is what is wrong with the MMO genre today.
You guys want everything without having to put in any effort. Why cant you be happy with what you earn, why do you have to get the same rewards as the raiders? Why do you feel you deserve these rewards? Why do you have to compare yourself to another player?
This the problem. Instant gradification, easy rewards, no risk, no challenge. It is ruining a once great genre.
Sooner or Later
Calm down skippy.
Have you heard of EVE, Mortal Online, Darkfall, Earthrise... these games are being made. Go play them. We'll leave you alone to play them, go ahead.
These games just aren't as popular. Does that upset you?
Is it important to you that these games have more subs the Alganon or WoW or LotrO or any other "casual" games because, to you, the GAME has to "win" versus a "noob casual" game?
Is it too simple to ask that you simply find a game you enjoy playing, and play it?
Calm down skippy.
Have you heard of EVE, Mortal Online, Darkfall, Earthrise... these games are being made. Go play them. We'll leave you alone to play them, go ahead.
These games just aren't as popular. Does that upset you?
Is it important to you that these games have more subs the Alganon or WoW or LotrO or any other "casual" games because, to you, the GAME has to "win" versus a "noob casual" game?
Is it too simple to ask that you simply find a game you enjoy playing, and play it?
Eve is not a game for me. I want to fly my ship not click and watch. I played it for a bit.
Darkfall sucks, it is horriable. I beta tested it.
Mortal Online looks good.
Earthrise is not my type of game.
I do not have to win a game, i want to feel like I earned what I got. I want to think and problem solve while playing a game. I want to feel like I earned my rewards. I like accomplishments.
Its not just the gaming industry its the world..... Everything is about instant gradification and making everyone feel like a winner. We are not teach people how to deal with failure.
Sooner or Later
Roger that. Look at it this way; elite powergamer in an uberguild levels up fast and starts raiding, in a couple of months what do they have to do? Wait for content? Answer: set their offline study system and start developing their characters. But wait; they still have to spend a lot of hours raiding .. for all their other guild members. It might take a year of hardcore raiding to get it all, which impinges on their study time.
What are the casual players doing during this time? They are far behind the curve as far as overall player level, but they've already had months of study advancements. When they eventually get to the level cap, they have also studied the lore and crafting advancements necessary to gain the rewards that the raiders have been acquiring for months for all their guildies, so now they are getting the end-game rewards via the study system, plus they have additional stat bonuses.
Not a perfect system, but pretty sweet, and well worth a shot.
Again, you want the same rewards as the guy that puts in the time and EFFROT without putting in the time or effort. That is wrong on so many levels... that is what is wrong with the world we live in today. That is what is wrong with the MMO genre today.
You guys want everything without having to put in any effort. Why cant you be happy with what you earn, why do you have to get the same rewards as the raiders? Why do you feel you deserve these rewards? Why do you have to compare yourself to another player?
This the problem. Instant gradification, easy rewards, no risk, no challenge. It is ruining a once great genre.
Boy some people are thick or you are simply reading what you want to. Where did anyone say that this study system wouldn't take time and effort? You do understand the concept of time correct? 40 hours is equal to 40 hours whether that time is spent in one week, two, three, four, etc; really I hope I am getting through to you. No one wants instant gratification they simply want other options to raiding.
UO had it right it took time and effort to create a good character not this childish loot whoring.
Roger that. Look at it this way; elite powergamer in an uberguild levels up fast and starts raiding, in a couple of months what do they have to do? Wait for content? Answer: set their offline study system and start developing their characters. But wait; they still have to spend a lot of hours raiding .. for all their other guild members. It might take a year of hardcore raiding to get it all, which impinges on their study time.
What are the casual players doing during this time? They are far behind the curve as far as overall player level, but they've already had months of study advancements. When they eventually get to the level cap, they have also studied the lore and crafting advancements necessary to gain the rewards that the raiders have been acquiring for months for all their guildies, so now they are getting the end-game rewards via the study system, plus they have additional stat bonuses.
Not a perfect system, but pretty sweet, and well worth a shot.
Again, you want the same rewards as the guy that puts in the time and EFFROT without putting in the time or effort. That is wrong on so many levels... that is what is wrong with the world we live in today. That is what is wrong with the MMO genre today.
You guys want everything without having to put in any effort. Why cant you be happy with what you earn, why do you have to get the same rewards as the raiders? Why do you feel you deserve these rewards? Why do you have to compare yourself to another player?
This the problem. Instant gradification, easy rewards, no risk, no challenge. It is ruining a once great genre.
Boy some people are thick or you are simply reading what you want to. Where did anyone say that this study system wouldn't take time and effort? You do understand the concept of time correct? 40 hours is equal to 40 hours whether that time is spent in one week, two, three, four, etc; really I hope I am getting through to you. No one wants instant gratification they simply want other options to raiding.
UO had it right it took time and effort to create a good character not this childish loot whoring.
So your trying to tell me that to pick your skills while off line and letting them train is going to take effort? Is that what you are trying to tell me? Because in EvE it does not take any effort at all.
Yes 40 hours is 40 hours but what does that have to do with anything?
How can you say they do not want instant gratification? They want the same rewards as the players that put in more effort and time.. So yes they want instant gratification. They want rewards without putting in the effort for them. That is instant gratification.
No, the OP said nothing about raiding, he said this systems gives him an option to keep up with those hardcore gamers that have a lot more time to invest in playing the game. This has nothing to do with raiding or not raiding and everything to do with gaining skills without playing the game.
This system is like saying you want to learn how to play professional baseball but you do not want to play baseball you want to listen to a how to tape while sleeping.
Sooner or Later
I agree with you 150% here buddy.
But MMOs and games are NOT the place to teach failure and social exclusion and hardship... they are games... designed to be a RELEASE from the troubles of real life. Hence, ROLE PLAYING part of MMORPG.
Most people, and I can safely say "most" given sales/subscription numbers, would agree that a game is suppose to be fun. You can very easily feel you earned what you got and think and problem solve and earn your rewards in any game you deam as "casual."
This is your opinion, and I repsect that, that you want a game that is more "realistic" in terms of risk/reward and hardship/loss etc...
But you have to realize the vast majority do not want that game, and yes it sucks for people like you, but there ARE games being built for those who think the same... you can just never expect them to be AAA titles from the "big budget" guys.
I agree with you 150% here buddy.
But MMOs and games are NOT the place to teach failure and social exclusion and hardship... they are games... designed to be a RELEASE from the troubles of real life. Hence, ROLE PLAYING part of MMORPG.
Most people, and I can safely say "most" given sales/subscription numbers, would agree that a game is suppose to be fun. You can very easily feel you earned what you got and think and problem solve and earn your rewards in any game you deam as "casual."
This is your opinion, and I repsect that, that you want a game that is more "realistic" in terms of risk/reward and hardship/loss etc...
But you have to realize the vast majority do not want that game, and yes it sucks for people like you, but there ARE games being built for those who think the same... you can just never expect them to be AAA titles from the "big budget" guys.
What I am saying is there is no reason why games cannot teach people that. Gaming is a huge industry, same with movies and music. Most people in my generation learn from these 3 things..... I am 27.
Games are not designed to be easy. Look at the first video games, sure pong was easy but how about Super mario? Zelda? Did they make them easy?
Gaming needs to be a challenge, it needs problem solving, these are the back bone of any game. The first few levels are easy then they get harder and harder till you beat them. Most people that play games play them to get a release from there RL problems. That is why I play them but that does not mean I want to turn my brain off and play a game.
I know I am in the minorty here and I can respect that most people like these new easy gameplay, instant gratification games but what I cannot understand or respect is gamers like the OP wanting the same rewards as people who put in the time and effort. Just like in RL, I bet the OP loves free hand outs, does not put forth the effort and thinks its unfair when a co worker gets a raise or promption and he/she does not.
That is what is wrong, Gaming, movies, TV, music, like it or not do teach people. They are tools and if used right can help alot in RL.
I play games to be challenged, to think, to problem solve. I LOVE PROBLEM SOLVING, its fun to me, I love the feeling I get when I solve a problem. That is why I play video games. All day at work I problem solve, figure things out but I do not get to solve problems that are fun to me. (network admin). So when I get home, I love playing video games because it allows me to play and problem solve. It allows me to lose myself in the game.
I am playing EQ1 again because its the only game that is released that still has some challenge and even EQ1 has been "dumbed" down and made easier.
Sooner or Later
Because old PC games and console games were designed by dorky adults for dorky adults.
You had to have a lot of technical know-how just to figure out how to install or hook up the things. Most people didn't know DOS commands or even how to hook up a VCR.
What has happened is that EVERYONE has gotten more technically savy.
There are 8 year old kids that know more about programming then I do, that could rip through a new game in half the time and get twice as high of scores.
The entire video game industry has shifted.
Games aren't really made for the small % (over all) of older, seasoned vets like us (I'm 25) they are made for the millions of teens and pre-teens who were raised on video game consoles and PC games, cell phones and instant messengers.
Games for older people are the really casual ones, suprisingly. Most popular game in the world? It's other Bejeweled or Hearts I think..
We few "hardcore" old school gamers are a dying breed. Just like the age of personal responsibility has been passed over for the "everyone is special and gets a gold star" crap we see now.
It sucks, but we have to deal with it.
Find games you enjoy, and play them. Don't be caught in the past or you'll end up a crotchity old hermit.
Are you really going to argue that it is some kind of character flaw that people don't want to invest 4-10 hrs a day sitting in front of their computer banging the keys for the advancement of their character in an online game? And, are you really going to argue that someone playing an online game for 4-10 hours a day represents good character and work ethic, and is a gaming style that should be rewarded over all others?
For the rest of us, these games are just that - games. Pasttimes. We don't need a 2nd job. You can spend your 10 hrs a day binging the keyboard if you want; I'll move on to a game that doesn't require that I play the game like an employee in a Chinese shoe fctory.
Ack, that's exactly what I've become!
Alganon sounds great in theory, in actual practice I'll bet it doesn't work out quite like the OP hopes. There still will be disparities that favor those who play a lot vs those who do not, be it in gear, character progression or just plain player skill.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ack, that's exactly what I've become!
Alganon sounds great in theory, in actual practice I'll bet it doesn't work out quite like the OP hopes. There still will be disparities that favor those who play a lot vs those who do not, be it in gear, character progression or just plain player skill.
I don't care about "disparities", all I want is the ability to advance my character while I'm offline, and the ability to get top rewards without raiding. For now, this is good enough. Games that do it better may follow.
It's the increase of casual gamers, extreme soloists, and people like the OP that have ruined the MMORPG genre...
Along with the devs who have listened to them.
So your trying to tell me that to pick your skills while off line and letting them train is going to take effort? Is that what you are trying to tell me? Because in EvE it does not take any effort at all.
Yes 40 hours is 40 hours but what does that have to do with anything?
How can you say they do not want instant gratification? They want the same rewards as the players that put in more effort and time.. So yes they want instant gratification. They want rewards without putting in the effort for them. That is instant gratification.
No, the OP said nothing about raiding, he said this systems gives him an option to keep up with those hardcore gamers that have a lot more time to invest in playing the game. This has nothing to do with raiding or not raiding and everything to do with gaining skills without playing the game.
This system is like saying you want to learn how to play professional baseball but you do not want to play baseball you want to listen to a how to tape while sleeping.
Ok one more time. The system is still under development but as I understand so far it is not a copy of Eve’s system. It is a hybrid between Eve and a standard mmo. So you can not simply study your way to power you have to actually play. What this system is supposed to do is bridge the gap between the dedicated casual players that has been playing for years vs the hardcore power gamer that has only been around for a couple months. Given enough time, if they stick around, the newer power gamer will probably out power the dedicated casual but the gap will be less then the loot based crap we have to play now.
So if you play 40 hours in a week to get elite gear that means I should be able to spend 40 over 4 weeks and have equal gear correct? Time and effort should be equal to time and effort after all.
How is studying for weeks instant gratification vs someone who raids for 4 hours? Really what part of IT WILL TAKE WEEKS OF STUDY can’t you grasp?
Sigh, I don’t care what the OP is saying for the 10th time. Listen to what I am telling you. (read this part slowly so it sinks in) You do not gain skill without playing, what the study system will do is buff the skills you already have or possible unlock new ones. So that a 2 year casual vet will be relatively equal in power to the couple month power gamer. It will not allow casual people to keep up with power gamers if they both start at the same time.
No this system is like studying game footage then going out and putting that learned knowledge to work.
Are you really going to argue that it is some kind of character flaw that people don't want to invest 4-10 hrs a day sitting in front of their computer banging the keys for the advancement of their character in an online game? And, are you really going to argue that someone playing an online game for 4-10 hours a day represents good character and work ethic, and is a gaming style that should be rewarded over all others?
For the rest of us, these games are just that - games. Pasttimes. We don't need a 2nd job. You can spend your 10 hrs a day binging the keyboard if you want; I'll move on to a game that doesn't require that I play the game like an employee in a Chinese shoe fctory.
Again who said anything about a 2nd job. Never said it was a flaw if a person does not play 10+ hours a night. I simply said that someone that puts in 10+ hours a day should get better rewards then someone that puts in 2 hours a night. It is very simple
This is one of my hobbies. I make time to play games because I enjoy them. Do not give me this crap about a 2nd job. I play around 25 hours a week on avg. that is not that much. Instead of watching TV, I game. Instead of reading a book, I game. instead of going to the bar every night, I game. I still have a life, I work at a good job 8 hours a day. I go out with my friends, I party, drink and have my fun with girls and I still manage to make time for one of my favorite hobbies.... Gaming.
I play hockey, that is my other hobby. I play as much as I possiable can. I MAKE TIME FOR MY HOBBIES.
Yes someone that puts in more time and effort should get better rewards. That is exactly what I am saying.
Just like Doctors go to school for twice as long, they get better rewards. its very simple. The more effort you put into something the better rewards you get out of it. Its not that hard to understand really.
Just like in Sports, practice makes perfect. Not everyone can become professional sports players but that does not mean that they should make it easier to become a professional.
Nobody wants games to become a second job.... I just want them to require thinking. I do not like easy mode games. They bug the shit out of me, they represent all that is wrong in this world. I was raised to understand that the only way to get what you want in this world is though hard work and effort. That goes for everything in life.
How many hours a night do you watch TV?
What is so important that you cannot put 2 hours a night into a video game? I mean its 2 hours a night. That is 10 hours a week without counting weekends where most people have even more free time. 10 hours a week is very good and will allow you to advance in most MMOGs at a good pace.
You say I do not have a life because I spend my free time playing Video games. explain to me what "having a life" means. Anyone? Its always the same bullshit with you casual gamers. I have a real life, I cannot spend 10 hours a day in game like you. News flash I spend 3 to 5 hours a night in game and more on the weekends.
Sooner or Later
No what is and has been ruining the mmo genre is everyone copying the EQ design model.
This whole thread reads like a marketing experiment for this Alganon game.. Hi , I like x and y in my mmo's, I bet there's alot of people like that..oh would you look at that, I just found this awesome game named Alganon that doas x and y really well.
*add random arguments to sucker people into a discussion while mentioning Alganon every 2nd sentence*
*profit*