Wonder how people on dial-up play? All the textures and models are already on your computer, don't need to DL them!
So? whats your point?
The other guy say that this thing will use a 5 KB stream of video. A stream of video has nothing to do with how people play games like unreal tournament with a modem. On [a game like] Unreal Tournament the server sends ever 1/15 of second information about position of entitys. say X,Y,Z of player 1, X,Y,Z of playr 2 .... if these players are visible on the screen that client. The client side take these data, and update the position of the players on his memory, so wen the world is rendered on that computer, the position of these players is somewhat like the real one. Sending 8 floats may take 32 bytes (realistically, a frame will be more like 450 bytes, ...but I digress). And is not done 1/60 seconds, is done at a much slower framerate, since the server has to send frames to all clients, and can't pump out frames faster than that. Since the server update frames at 20 FPS and the client render frames at 60 FPS, there are lots of frames where the client as to render the screen withouhh updated information. To make the players move smoothly, the client has to figure out the current position... so it fake the intermediate frames. The result is a smooth movement of the frames on the screen, even with a horrible bad internet conexion.
Wonder how people on dial-up play? All the textures and models are already on your computer, don't need to DL them!
So? whats your point?
The other guy say that this thing will use a 5 KB stream of video. A stream of video has nothing to do with how people play games like unreal tournament with a modem. On [a game like] Unreal Tournament the server sends ever 1/15 of second information about position of entitys. say X,Y,Z of player 1, X,Y,Z of playr 2 .... if these players are visible on the screen that client. The client side take these data, and update the position of the players on his memory, so wen the world is rendered on that computer, the position of these players is somewhat like the real one. Sending 8 floats may take 32 bytes (realistically, a frame will be more like 450 bytes, ...but I digress). And is not done 1/60 seconds, is done at a much slower framerate, since the server has to send frames to all clients, and can't pump out frames faster than that. Since the server update frames at 20 FPS and the client render frames at 60 FPS, there are lots of frames where the client as to render the screen withouhh updated information. To make the players move smoothly, the client has to figure out the current position... so it fake the intermediate frames. The result is a smooth movement of the frames on the screen, even with a horrible bad internet conexion.
What are you talking about? I think either you or I got mixed up somewhere.
I do not think this will work. You said wow and all mmos already do it. I said they don't. We have the client with all textures installed on our computer already. WoW is not streaming to us. I said that playing things like wow can be done with 5KB/s or less (if we were streaming wow I would need a 5MB/s connection at least). You laughed and started up with some stupid desktop image that has nothing to do with what we are talking about here!
Originally posted by Abrahmm <snip> First of all, by the laws of Physics, this is only possible if you live 186 miles or closer to their server. <snip>
93 miles. It's a round trip; you have to get there and come back within the specified lag time.
Originally posted by Zorvan Originally posted by majinant Originally posted by Teiman
I laught at your 5KB/s speed.
Wonder how people on dial-up play? All the textures and models are already on your computer, don't need to DL them!
Dial up is 56k, not 5k, for one thing. <snip>
56 kilobits per second. Which, after you factor out parity bits and whatnot, is 5 kilobytes per second, close enough. Note that few people actually get the full 56 kbits/sec; line conditions generally slow it down some. It's not uncommon to get scaled all the way back to 28.8.
For MMORPGs it's not a big deal. You play an MMORPG on someone elses server already. This set up for an MMORPG doesn't really change that much.
What are you really gaining when you play an MMORPG from running the client on your home computer? Nothing really. And what about second hand sales? You can still turn over your account to someone to selll your character in an MMORPG. And most of the value of an MMORPG box is gone after you buy it anyways, because you use up the free month that comes with it.
For single player games it's a different story. This is a way for developers to get some serious copy right protection. It's much harder to steal the software when you never have it in the first place.
Yeah, MMORPGs obviously already use this business model, which is fine. What isn't fine, from my perspective, is the way the games industry is desperately searching for ways to transition to a subscription/recurring revenue model for ALL games, even crappy single-player titles with some tacked on expansion content that costs virtually nothing to produce.
See the way EA is trying to turn the Tiger Woods series into a subscription based game for an example.
I understand the mentality, I'm a small business owner of a company that deals in services, and recurring revenue is the holy grail, but you've got to have something worthwhile for people to subscribe to, otherwise you alienate people with your greed.
At the end of the day, its their prerogative to do that, just as its my prerogative to find something else to do with my entertainment dollar.
No... I hate to break it to you... MMORPGS DO NOT work this way.
No game (that I can think of at this time) works this way AT ALL! NO GAME!
What On-live is proposing is that the computer that accepts input AND DISPLAYS all data is THE SERVER... NOT THE CLIENT computer.
SO basically, (if we use Street fighter as an example), when you do ryu's fireball attack, the "fireball" attack is sent from you controller to the "onlive box" or your computer, whichever. THen it's sent over the internet to your server. THEN... THATS when the computer knows to do the firebal attack. After that, the server does the "fireball" attack, and the fireball attack screenshots are made, then sent over the internet to you and displayed on your TV / monitor!
MMORPGS (all mmo's, actually) and every other game ever made so far sends the control from your keyboard, to your computer / ps3 / game system and THEY calculate and display your "moves" on the screen.
MMOs just send the fact that you did a certain act or movement or etc to the server. The server just sends back... "OK, no problem, keep going" or it sends back "error... illegal action" and pops you back to where you were, etc.
Some of the things other people have said are true, servers "guess" / assume that you will keep running in the same direction, etc, so they guess that you will keep running straight. That kind of thing does happen.. but that info is YOUR COMPUTER and THE SERVER guessing that that OTHER indivudal you see is still running in the same direction, etc. because THAT PERSONS computer lost connection or has a slow / interrupted connection to the server.
On THEIR SCREEN... THEY See themselves running smoothly from point A to point B.
But, if THE SERVER had to "guess" when / where / etc everytime you moved because the SERVER is the one doing rendering and interepreting player commands / interactions... then YOU YOURSELF will see that issu with YOUR CHARACTER.
I HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt that this kind of system will work and it will ONLY work in one way, basically within the same ISP network that you are apart of. THe onlive servers would have to be within a 300 ~ 500 mile distance to you, AND very very few hops from you to get ANYTHING like a ... useful connection.
There are ALOT ALOT ALOT of issues with this thing up the wazzoo...
The sending of 4 ~ 5 Mb/s is NOT a problem at all. That is acutally the "easy" part. its the Lag thats going to absolutely KILL this system. And NO.. you CANNOT HIDE the lag as one of hte posters said with the "special system" that makes 700 ms lag look like 70 ms lag... (bwahahahahaha!!! thats the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of).
The only way to hide lag is if the computers who are talking to each other KNOW WHAT is going to happen NEXT for the next 3 ~ 5 seconds.... and NO COMPUTER KNOWS what a player will do next for the next 3 ~ 5 seconds... unless the game is programed that way... (which would suck... fyi).
What you guys don't understand is that even Super Mario brothers 1 at a 1inch by 1 inch video screen on your computer monitor, but STREAMED would be almost unplayable on ANY system today. It has NOTHING to do with the computers themselves... its the internet connection.
the current max speeds of the net are highly limiting for this kind of system.
Originally posted by kelemit No... I hate to break it to you... MMORPGS DO NOT work this way.
I think these guys are talking about the bussines model and the rights that players get.
Games like WoW work on a subscription base (you pay to play). And Online seems will be pay to play... but for all games, If you want to play mineswepper on onlive, is still pay to play.
The comparations end there. These people where not discussing the tecnicalities about how is delivered the game to the client.
*shrug* Most of you hate it. I plan to give it a try when it launches though. I believe it deserves a fair shake, if it manages to pull off what it says it will.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
High end gaming pc's are relatively cheap now. get a 260, throw in a simple 3.0 dual core and a few gigs of ram. Highend for less than 500 bucks And thats a higend pc that isnt going to get outdated any time soon. Games dont even need those "cheap" specs to run on max. This company seems to be making a product thats not even needed. Kinda like that old ass web tv thing, that never took off. With the money you would be spending on a monthly sub, you could save and make one upgrade to your pc every 2 years. Using the upgrade method, you would come out ahead. And on top of the service charge, you will still have to pay for the mmo sub, and the internet bill.
In addition to my already irrefutable argument, I would like to quote this post for emphasis.
Please crawl back in your hole. Saying your post is ridiculous is being kind. Most of the readers here are laughing loudly at your silly assumption.
There are so many crackpot ideas on the web that are pure fiction it is amazing. This is one of them. Next time think before you make a fool out of yourself. If it looks absurd, it most probably is.
Comments
Wonder how people on dial-up play? All the textures and models are already on your computer, don't need to DL them!
Wonder how people on dial-up play? All the textures and models are already on your computer, don't need to DL them!
So? whats your point?
The other guy say that this thing will use a 5 KB stream of video. A stream of video has nothing to do with how people play games like unreal tournament with a modem. On [a game like] Unreal Tournament the server sends ever 1/15 of second information about position of entitys. say X,Y,Z of player 1, X,Y,Z of playr 2 .... if these players are visible on the screen that client. The client side take these data, and update the position of the players on his memory, so wen the world is rendered on that computer, the position of these players is somewhat like the real one. Sending 8 floats may take 32 bytes (realistically, a frame will be more like 450 bytes, ...but I digress). And is not done 1/60 seconds, is done at a much slower framerate, since the server has to send frames to all clients, and can't pump out frames faster than that. Since the server update frames at 20 FPS and the client render frames at 60 FPS, there are lots of frames where the client as to render the screen withouhh updated information. To make the players move smoothly, the client has to figure out the current position... so it fake the intermediate frames. The result is a smooth movement of the frames on the screen, even with a horrible bad internet conexion.
Wonder how people on dial-up play? All the textures and models are already on your computer, don't need to DL them!
So? whats your point?
The other guy say that this thing will use a 5 KB stream of video. A stream of video has nothing to do with how people play games like unreal tournament with a modem. On [a game like] Unreal Tournament the server sends ever 1/15 of second information about position of entitys. say X,Y,Z of player 1, X,Y,Z of playr 2 .... if these players are visible on the screen that client. The client side take these data, and update the position of the players on his memory, so wen the world is rendered on that computer, the position of these players is somewhat like the real one. Sending 8 floats may take 32 bytes (realistically, a frame will be more like 450 bytes, ...but I digress). And is not done 1/60 seconds, is done at a much slower framerate, since the server has to send frames to all clients, and can't pump out frames faster than that. Since the server update frames at 20 FPS and the client render frames at 60 FPS, there are lots of frames where the client as to render the screen withouhh updated information. To make the players move smoothly, the client has to figure out the current position... so it fake the intermediate frames. The result is a smooth movement of the frames on the screen, even with a horrible bad internet conexion.
What are you talking about? I think either you or I got mixed up somewhere.
I do not think this will work. You said wow and all mmos already do it. I said they don't. We have the client with all textures installed on our computer already. WoW is not streaming to us. I said that playing things like wow can be done with 5KB/s or less (if we were streaming wow I would need a 5MB/s connection at least). You laughed and started up with some stupid desktop image that has nothing to do with what we are talking about here!
Yes, in this line:
I was talking to other guy, telling that you can install WoW in this system (on his servers) and use this system to play wow.
Indeed, wow don't use "video stream" to work on our computers :-)
thats where our discussion "got mixed".
note: The ridiculous screen is a example how a compressed frame look. That one is big, 26 KB. A 5 KB frame sould look much worse.
Yes, in this line:
I was talking to other guy, telling that you can install WoW in this system (on his servers) and use this system to play wow.
Indeed, wow don't use "video stream" to work on our computers :-)
thats where our discussion "got mixed".
note: The ridiculous screen is a example how a compressed frame look. That one is big, 26 KB. A 5 KB frame sould look much worse.
Sweet as. Was my mistake
if it could work that would be amazing and totally change pc gaming, it would make somebody very very rich.
Wonder how people on dial-up play? All the textures and models are already on your computer, don't need to DL them!
Dial up is 56k, not 5k, for one thing.
As far as Onlive, it will not be the big revolution is's makers and marketing department would have you believe.
Will it be an successful addition to the gaming genre? Perhaps. But it will still share its space with physical boxes and digital downloads.
If everyone was happy having to be connected to the internet to play, Steam would have ruled the gaming world by now.
Wonder how people on dial-up play? All the textures and models are already on your computer, don't need to DL them!
Dial up is 56k, not 5k, for one thing.
Oh I am sorry, 7KB/s.
Anyway, when I had 56k i never got above 5KB/s!
93 miles. It's a round trip; you have to get there and come back within the specified lag time.
Wonder how people on dial-up play? All the textures and models are already on your computer, don't need to DL them!
Dial up is 56k, not 5k, for one thing.
<snip>
56 kilobits per second. Which, after you factor out parity bits and whatnot, is 5 kilobytes per second, close enough. Note that few people actually get the full 56 kbits/sec; line conditions generally slow it down some. It's not uncommon to get scaled all the way back to 28.8.
For MMORPGs it's not a big deal. You play an MMORPG on someone elses server already. This set up for an MMORPG doesn't really change that much.
What are you really gaining when you play an MMORPG from running the client on your home computer? Nothing really. And what about second hand sales? You can still turn over your account to someone to selll your character in an MMORPG. And most of the value of an MMORPG box is gone after you buy it anyways, because you use up the free month that comes with it.
For single player games it's a different story. This is a way for developers to get some serious copy right protection. It's much harder to steal the software when you never have it in the first place.
Yeah, MMORPGs obviously already use this business model, which is fine. What isn't fine, from my perspective, is the way the games industry is desperately searching for ways to transition to a subscription/recurring revenue model for ALL games, even crappy single-player titles with some tacked on expansion content that costs virtually nothing to produce.
See the way EA is trying to turn the Tiger Woods series into a subscription based game for an example.
I understand the mentality, I'm a small business owner of a company that deals in services, and recurring revenue is the holy grail, but you've got to have something worthwhile for people to subscribe to, otherwise you alienate people with your greed.
At the end of the day, its their prerogative to do that, just as its my prerogative to find something else to do with my entertainment dollar.
No... I hate to break it to you... MMORPGS DO NOT work this way.
No game (that I can think of at this time) works this way AT ALL! NO GAME!
What On-live is proposing is that the computer that accepts input AND DISPLAYS all data is THE SERVER... NOT THE CLIENT computer.
SO basically, (if we use Street fighter as an example), when you do ryu's fireball attack, the "fireball" attack is sent from you controller to the "onlive box" or your computer, whichever. THen it's sent over the internet to your server. THEN... THATS when the computer knows to do the firebal attack. After that, the server does the "fireball" attack, and the fireball attack screenshots are made, then sent over the internet to you and displayed on your TV / monitor!
MMORPGS (all mmo's, actually) and every other game ever made so far sends the control from your keyboard, to your computer / ps3 / game system and THEY calculate and display your "moves" on the screen.
MMOs just send the fact that you did a certain act or movement or etc to the server. The server just sends back... "OK, no problem, keep going" or it sends back "error... illegal action" and pops you back to where you were, etc.
Some of the things other people have said are true, servers "guess" / assume that you will keep running in the same direction, etc, so they guess that you will keep running straight. That kind of thing does happen.. but that info is YOUR COMPUTER and THE SERVER guessing that that OTHER indivudal you see is still running in the same direction, etc. because THAT PERSONS computer lost connection or has a slow / interrupted connection to the server.
On THEIR SCREEN... THEY See themselves running smoothly from point A to point B.
But, if THE SERVER had to "guess" when / where / etc everytime you moved because the SERVER is the one doing rendering and interepreting player commands / interactions... then YOU YOURSELF will see that issu with YOUR CHARACTER.
I HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt that this kind of system will work and it will ONLY work in one way, basically within the same ISP network that you are apart of. THe onlive servers would have to be within a 300 ~ 500 mile distance to you, AND very very few hops from you to get ANYTHING like a ... useful connection.
There are ALOT ALOT ALOT of issues with this thing up the wazzoo...
The sending of 4 ~ 5 Mb/s is NOT a problem at all. That is acutally the "easy" part. its the Lag thats going to absolutely KILL this system. And NO.. you CANNOT HIDE the lag as one of hte posters said with the "special system" that makes 700 ms lag look like 70 ms lag... (bwahahahahaha!!! thats the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of).
The only way to hide lag is if the computers who are talking to each other KNOW WHAT is going to happen NEXT for the next 3 ~ 5 seconds.... and NO COMPUTER KNOWS what a player will do next for the next 3 ~ 5 seconds... unless the game is programed that way... (which would suck... fyi).
What you guys don't understand is that even Super Mario brothers 1 at a 1inch by 1 inch video screen on your computer monitor, but STREAMED would be almost unplayable on ANY system today. It has NOTHING to do with the computers themselves... its the internet connection.
the current max speeds of the net are highly limiting for this kind of system.
If you want to know more... go head and ask.
Kelemit
I think these guys are talking about the bussines model and the rights that players get.
Games like WoW work on a subscription base (you pay to play). And Online seems will be pay to play... but for all games, If you want to play mineswepper on onlive, is still pay to play.
The comparations end there. These people where not discussing the tecnicalities about how is delivered the game to the client.
*shrug* Most of you hate it. I plan to give it a try when it launches though. I believe it deserves a fair shake, if it manages to pull off what it says it will.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
In addition to my already irrefutable argument, I would like to quote this post for emphasis.
Please crawl back in your hole. Saying your post is ridiculous is being kind. Most of the readers here are laughing loudly at your silly assumption.
There are so many crackpot ideas on the web that are pure fiction it is amazing. This is one of them. Next time think before you make a fool out of yourself. If it looks absurd, it most probably is.