Can we really blame Sony for SWG?

aeric67

A lot of people blame SOE for the alleged failure of SWG, but can we really fault them for that particular game? My experience has been that LucasArts games have a record for being very hit and miss on their own, with or without Sony. There are some exceptions, like the Jedi Knight series and KOTOR, but that seems to be it out of the dozens of games they've released on all the platforms.

Furthermore, it's been shown that many games based on existing intellectual property end up worse off than they would have been without that basis. It turns out being just another item that the developers have to balance in their juggling act to make the game fun. I say most games are better off without that limitation.

Maybe the worst we can fault SOE on is not being insistent enough to say, "That wouldn't be fun, George, so we aren't putting it in." Then again, maybe SOE was in total agreement with LucasArts on SWG and so they are partly to blame. Or perhaps a compromise between the two is what failed in the game... Design by committee.

Help me out here...

I didn't put this in the SWG forum because it really isn't so much about SWG, but more about Sony and LucasArts.

alerum

ya know i never thought about it in those terms. the only lucas art game i ever liked was KOTOR. all the rest imo were crap.

This cold dark and tormented hell is all i'll ever know so when you get to heaven may the devil be your judge.

~Flogging Molly~

webBear1000

Yes!!

Kilguri

And for a moment there I was sure we were talking about Star Wards: BattleFront

loke81

Guess im one o the few peeps enjoying the path swg is going, ya, the game has clear weaknesses and lag out o the roof.. still JTL, gcw revamp and the jedi revamp has and i think will take this game 2 new heights.. But off course i might b wrong, trandoshans aint known to b the smartest species..

"Who am I to blow against the wind?"

aLeX666

Lucas Art didn't create SWG... they just let them use the name for commercial purposes. I think the problem came from SOE : create a game based on a very commercial franchise (Star Wars) and release a big piece of S*** and people will buy it. Don't forget the main priority of these companies : making money. SOE built up their name with EQ, now they just don't seem to care about what you think, people will always think about EQ when they think SOE and bow.

"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."

aeric67

Every AAA MMOG has a corporate entity behind it with that priority. That goes without saying.

What needs to be remembered is that it is cheaper to make a single-player game than it is to make a MMO game. These companies don't release MMOGs with the simple goal of getting you to buy the box (although that can be said of single-player or non-MMO games), they release it with the intention of keeping you for 6 months or so. Otherwise they don't meet their own financial goals for the project.

They would not achieve those goals by being blatently ignorant of customer desires. It can still appear that way, but it's not the goal. If it does happen, like in the case of SWG, it is probably another factor. One I am trying to explore here...

aLeX666

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Originally posted by aeric67

Every AAA MMOG has a corporate entity behind it with that priority. That goes without saying.
What needs to be remembered is that it is cheaper to make a single-player game than it is to make a MMO game. These companies don't release MMOGs with the simple goal of getting you to buy the box (although that can be said of single-player or non-MMO games), they release it with the intention of keeping you for 6 months or so. Otherwise they don't meet their own financial goals for the project.
They would not achieve those goals by being blatently ignorant of customer desires. It can still appear that way, but it's not the goal. If it does happen, like in the case of SWG, it is probably another factor. One I am trying to explore here...

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What hooked you up to EQ for longer than 6 months? Or myself for instance? The addictions of an unattainable goal. We're egomaniac individuals. EQ is a very simple game. Was it THAT *cough*good*cough* when it was released? No. It was simply innovative : the first 3d MMORPG. If SWG had been released before EQ, EQ would recieve the same reactions that SWG is currently experiencing. SWG has nothing really impressive or innovative. Lucas Art cannot be blamed for that, they only allowed SOE to use the Star Wars franchise, they didn't design the game.

"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."

DarqueLord

I was told by several people who managed to stay interested in SWG that in the beginning of the game, the Devs did listen to its customers. There was a established dialogue between the devs and players to fix problems and improve game play.

But that has changed, the only concern they have now is Jtl and the Jedis. The Swg forums are filled with flames/complaints aimed at the devs, trying to get their attention to address serious errors in the game. Some of the professions in the game have been broken since the conception of the game, and you never hear if these professions will be fixed. The combat re-vamp was supposed to come out 6 months ago, but they keep pushing it back and putting in patches that only make it worse. The GCW is a joke, the only reason to belong to a faction is to do PvP. And PvP can only be done if you def-stack professions, have the best armor and purchase doctors/dancer/musician buffs.

As far as I am concerned if their name is on the box, they are to blame. This game could have been great and its been fubar-ed completely. They should have never pushed its release to beat out EQ2. They should have bitten the bullet and built a stable, enjoyable game instead of this shoddy imitation of star wars.

aeric67

Oh I don't believe for a second that LucasArts didn't design the game. Not for a second. George Lucas is not that hands-off. Look at Indiana Jones 4... He's denied yet another script because of his nitpicking, pushing that movie further and further out. He no doubt does the same for all spin-offs of his IP.

I'd say it was the other way around; SOE just provided a platform for LucasArts to build a game on. Now rumor has it that Lucas wants to take SWG over entirely. He was just using SOE because they had experience in MMORPGs, now that the game is establish, he wants to make its destruction complete.

EDIT: I don't advocate SOE as the saint by any means, but in this case I feel very sorry for them having to take the blame for Lucas...

aLeX666

Why would you be sorry for anyone based on speculations?

"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."

aeric67

They are taking the blame for a game that Lucas designed. People feel angst toward SOE when that should really be directed at LucasArts. Look at the history of LucasArts releases. Most have been disappointments. Perhaps it's speculation that Lucas is to blame for SWG, but there some great circumstantial evidence to support it, and that's usually plenty for a forum

EDIT: Besides, all I have to do is look at Lucas and hear him talk to feel sorry for anyone who works for him or with him. Maybe the cash is real nice, but damn...

MegaWolf

You also have to think how limited you when making a game based on a film. EQ was so great because they could keep adding thier own story and keep making a history behind the game. Star-wars already has a history, already has races, and you can;'t really change all that. Its kind of difficult to add new content to a game like that. So of course i dont blame SOE, i blame the people that work for SOE and work on this game. I have in my mind that the devs from SWG really have nothing to do with the devs from EQ2. There might be some connections here and there but from what i see from the devs in EQ2, they are working hard to tweak this game and they have been working around the clock.

But what i am trying to say is, It is hard to make a game from a movie that already has a story written for you, and the teams chosen to run these games, NOT MAKE THEM, run... are different. If you havent noticed, all these games were first released, they were good... but when SWG was left to the people who keep it good, it went down hill. But let people blame SOE if they want. All that really matters is that you like thier games. Like i loved EQ and PS was a freakin blast. I even had fun in SWG for a while.

aLeX666

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Originally posted by aeric67

They are taking the blame for a game that Lucas designed. People feel angst toward SOE when that should really be directed at LucasArts. Look at the history of LucasArts releases. Most have been disappointments. Perhaps it's speculation that Lucas is to blame for SWG, but there some great circumstantial evidence to support it, and that's usually plenty for a forum
EDIT: Besides, all I have to do is look at Lucas and hear him talk to feel sorry for anyone who works for him or with him. Maybe the cash is real nice, but damn...

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Knights of the Old Republic was awesome!  Depends on the dev team I guess!

"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."

fulmanfu

swg is the best mmorpg out there. as long as your not a star wars fan, which im not.

"Maybe this world is another planet's Hell."
- Aldous Huxley

protoroc

i loved how someone mentioned KOTOR when all it did was use the NWN engine, Lucasarts did practically nothing but change the textures and used the NWN GM tools

aeric67

What game besides KOTOR was any good from LucasArts? They have a couple dozen games for all sorts of platforms. A single good one out of two dozen is not a good record!

All I am saying (which someone else already went on about), is that without the Star Wars nazi on their back, I think SOE deserves a fair shake. Too many people give them bad credit for SWG, when there are so many variables that went into it. EQ2 is much more of a simple equation.

If SOE screws this one up, then they are fair game for the flame.

aLeX666

But still aeric... you're talking as if you knew there was a 3rd party influence, but you don't. What game did SOE make that was good? Infantry Online? Tanarus? Cosmic Rift? Lmao, give me a break. They haven't done one successful game. EQ was originally made by Verant, SOE took it over, made expansions for what? Holding the EverCrack addicts money every single month for bogus new content every now and then. Don't blame Lucas Art because of SOE failure. SOE is inexperienced! Take out your head from that hole you digged in dirt and accept it.

"I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my @$$."

protoroc

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Originally posted by aeric67

What game besides KOTOR was any good from LucasArts?

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X-Wing, X-Wing vs Tiefighter - the best space flight sim ever
Indianna Jones and the Fate of Atlantis - fun solve the puzzle to get the plot game

and ummm cant remeber the name of it but that first SW game made for the nintendo 64 rocked too

ummm i dont know about this one, but personally i thought jedi power battles was alot of fun

 

ianubisi

They are all to blame. No one is innocent.

starman999

I think they share the blame equally....

Sony is at fault for their usual crimes. Neglecting the players and their wants in favor of doing whatever the hell they feel like doing instead. Also the customer service they provide is horrendous.

Lucasarts Is to blame for trying to please the people who don't know what is best for them. Everyone wanted a jedi so Lucas said let them all have jedi then. Not realizing what a bad idea this was and then implementing it in a way that is completely unacceptable.

To quote another poster from these forums "they played the jedi card far too soon". On top of all this they are both to blame for the unbalanced game that it has become. The game they were developing and released originally is not the game we have now.

The change was not a good thing.

 

ROLEPLAYERS UNITE!!!!!

rohbshop

i think Sony often gets a bad rap.  Theyre the 'evil corporation' in gaming terms, but that usually comes from jaded vets of EQ, which there are alot of.  While i think SWG sux, i think they've got some good ideas(like JTLS so its a land and space mmorpg which is pretty damn cool imo).  So i dont think SOE are all bad.

Lucasarts have made some ok games.  KOTOR was fun and i liked Jedi Knight Academy i think it was called.  I read Battlefront is good, but i'm not too into shooters these days. 

 

Crabby

LucasArts made Monkey Island.  'Nuff said, SWG was a SOE debacle.

 

Theely

I think you are all wrong, is 1/4 LucasArts, 1/4 SOE, and the rest goes to the actual people that made the game. SOE didn't make the game, its employees did. My main point in this is that the same people are not making the same games. The peeps that made SWG are not making EQ2, but the company is the same.

If you know what I'm saying, then it makes sense, if you don't understand... well, I'm to lazy to explain more. I'll just say look at the last pages of any of the books that come with the game. I'm not looking at them, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct on this.

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twhi1974

You can add Planetside to the list of games that SOE has messed up. Great concept, but lack of caring on Sony's behalf totally ruined that game. I was in the beta of that game and it was much better during beta then when I stopped playing.

As far as LucasArts is concerned, their recent game Starwars:Battlefront is a good game. It's not great because LA really messed up rushing it to release at the same time as the DVD. It really lacks alot, expessially on the XBOX.

So, when you put both of those companies together well.....you see what you get.

Cthulhuvong

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Originally posted by Theely
I think you are all wrong, is 1/4 LucasArts, 1/4 SOE, and the rest goes to the actual people that made the game. SOE didn't make the game, its employees did. My main point in this is that the same people are not making the same games. The peeps that made SWG are not making EQ2, but the company is the same.If you know what I'm saying, then it makes sense, if you don't understand... well, I'm to lazy to explain more. I'll just say look at the last pages of any of the books that come with the game. I'm not looking at them, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct on this.

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I think you have it backwards. The Devs for Galaxies wanted to hold Galaxies for a little more Beta testing, but SOE and Lucasarts wanted it out before then. The Devs wanted to work on the combat balance before anything else, but management (SOE and/or Lucasarts) said that players needed jedi, and then the expansion needed to be out before EQ2. If Galaxies survives 3 months past EQ2, it may yet become a good game.

With SOE worrying about EQ2 and Lucasarts happy they got some more money from the expansion, they should both leave the game enough alone so that the people working on the game can do what is needed, not what management wants. The Devs did listen to the players, until the people paying their salaries told them to do otherwise because it was in the best interest of the game.

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Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server)

Games Tried:
Everquest (not a power gamer)
Earth and Beyond (kinda fun, kinda boring)
Planetside (rather play Counter-Strike)
Lineage 2 (see Everquest above, plus too many PKers and Bots)
Guild Wars [E3 trial] (Not too bad from what I saw, nothing very new though)
Eve Online (somewhat fun, somewhat repetetive)

Waiting for:
Fallen Earth (Post-apoc just rules!)