I definitely got a reaction out of you all. Mind you while I obviously am not a fan of rp servers I may have been a bit over the top. The goal of this is to incite debate not riots.
My only question is how come I can report you but I can't block you?
I was just thinking it would be a nice feature, if we can click on an article like this and say "Block" and then any more articles from this person (including this one) are blocked.
It is not that I can't handle a different opinion than mine. I just want a way once I figure out someone is an idiot not to accidentally read their articles again.
He got some sort of caricture drawing of himself on the main page along with other writers, so I think (unfortunately) he will be permitted to continue with this nonsense.
It kind of infuriates me, because his logic is so backwards. You could do madlibs by inserting anything in the blanks into his critique (Example, I use Churches, but you could put restaurants, RP servers, dog shows, whatever.)
Dana Massey Article Mad-Lib Generator
Look Gais, its simple, people who go to Churches don't do it for to be with other like minded people who share the same interests. They do it because they are socially inept, broken elitists who enjoy it when someone like Me shows up and tells them how stupid they all are, so they can feel like victims and rail against me. You see if you rail against this article, you must really be enjoying it and so I feel I am helping you in some way by completely mischaracterizing your reasons and fufilling your true wish of being irritated.
Going to Churches is a myth. They are really win-win. The people who go their to ruin someone elses experience get to have fun, and naturally I believe that you go there to have your fun ruined, so that must be enjoyable to you. Derp, Derp, Derp....I have a caricture on the main page, so someone will take me seriously. Derp, Derp.
<insert charicture pic of squinty-eyed elitist author here>
The way I see this whole article is very similar to politics. It would almost be as if a columnist on a website reported to telling the news exactly like it is suddenly started writing columns about how horrible liberals were. He didn't say it to start a debate or a discussion, he said it because he enjoyed putting the whole RP community down. The entire article's tone was that of smug superiority, someone who is 'better' looking down upon those who are 'worse'. In any case, Dana has /obviously/ never RPed with anyone worth RPing with. I don't doubt that his only experience was on WoW, where the RP, like every other aspect of the community, tends to be sub-par. I dare him to spend a week or so free of his cynical outlook playing Lord of the Rings Online on Landroval, watching and studing the RPers there, to see just how mature and complex real RP can be.
The disconnect from the keyboard to the screen is enough of a barrier that as neat as these games have become, they remain games. When someone plays Fallout, it creates a world that has more in common with reading a book than being in a play. When someone logs into World of Warcraft, they don’t even have the fiction to sink into. It’s about playing the game, and socializing, but few actually feel like they “become” their character.
Thank you, Dana!
Immersion talk always annoys me. I can suspend disbelief as well as the next guy, but unless I'm on stage or doing something with friends IRL (including tabletop), the keyboard and monitor keep me separated from my characters and their worlds.
The keyboard and monitor are no more or less a conduit for the imagination than the pencil, paper and dice. I don't see how manipulating your character via keyboard and monitor "separates" one more so than manipulating data on a sheet with a pencil. You talk to people across the table, with the prevalence of free voice chat software you could do the same. Both instances of verbal communication would likely be with people you know (I know I don't randomly give out Ventrilo server info).
But, if that's your barrier, it's a shame. If anything, being able to have a visual representation of the world and its contents adds to any talk of immersion. *shrug*
I have to go with what what Khalathwyr says.
Themilton: though I can appreciate that you have a preferred method that incites your imagniation, ie being with friends around a table top, I fail to see why you find it so beyond the pale that one can sit in front of a screen and still be able to make a similar leap of the imagination.
I mean, really... around a table top, with pencils, screens, your friend's mugs gleaming in the pale light while scarfing down potatoe chips or pizza or whatever is the food of choice, constantly refilling your soda or beer or drink of the night.
Why is that any more imagination inducing then sittng at a screen, lights dimmed in a similar fashion with the images acting as a backdrop to what is going on?
The only reason it is is because that's how you work. I think that's fine. But if someoone can lose themselves in a video game because their imagination allows them to break that barrier then I say good for them.
There is no one book on how one can use their imagination to the fullest extent. And if there is then please point me to it because it's very possible that I'm missing out.
I know that my days of pen and paper D&D play were a lot of fun and I suppose the images that I conjured up in my head were all the more powerful because they were mine, but I can't say I felt any more immersed than a game. If anything, I've found that game images (for me) can be more powerful in that I allow myself to be engrossed not in creating the scene but losing myself in the moment.
it's one of the reasons (and yes... I admit this) that playing games like doom III or Left4Dead or the demo of F.E.A.R actually sort of freak me out.
When in that F.E.A.R. demo I looked down a dark stair into the dim light and saw that little girl scurry from one side of the room into the shadows on the other side, I just turned it off.
To catagorically say that one person can't achieve a level of release as powerful as another's because one can't comprehend how they can just doesn't work for me.
I mean, we are not wired the same. So if someone tells me that they can achieve great immersion by blasting led zeppelin, wearing their mother's bathrobe and sitting on a chair of nails then I have no choice to believe them until such time as they are taken away by the state.
After reading all this, I guess I'll chime in.
Playing the game is different for everyone! Even RP is different.
Some people (like myself) see it as story writing. Unlike what Dana said, The
fiction is made by the players. Story-lines between characters and the such. Also
some people may get very invested and immersed in their character.
But you can't say, just cause 'you' don't immersed that it's all bull@#$.
It would be like me saying, "If you aren't role-playing, then you shouldn't play an mmo."
I have no right to tell you how to play, just like you have no right to tell others.
Unless they are just there to annoy and grief other players, which makes them
total jerks. Role-play is a massive part about rpgs and mmorpgs, and there's a reason
most mmo's have rp servers.
If you like it don't do it, otherwise why give rp'ers a hard time unless you're just that way.
I haven't read the previous 7 pages of comments, but I have to point out that you left out a third, and in all honesty probably the largest group of people who call RP servers there home.... This group is made up of mostly adults, or more mature teenagers that don't want to be bothered w/ the Xbox-live crowd...and most people here will know what I mean by that, I'm talking about the loud, obnoxious, obscenity spouting, spoiled children (or adult-children) that always have the ridiculous names, can't type normally but rather always use l33t-5p3ak, and are generally annoying d00dz. The large part of people I met on RP servers are simply looking for a MORE MATURE EXPERIENCE.
I have to say that that is me. Unless I'm going to go to a game with friends, I just find the nearest RP server and that's where I make my character.
I have no issues beign surrounded by players who want to role play and I get a more interesting and dare I say "more immersive" experience.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I'm not speaking about the content of the article on way or another, but I WOULD like to point out that this was an OPINION piece. Disagree with the opinion, sure, but you're dressing it down because it IS an opinion.... which is the point of each of the five featured columns every week.
If this "opinion" article had been posted on the forums, it would likely have been locked by a mod. There is a difference between an opinion piece and a rant. This article is clearly a rant.
Dana, roleplay servers and their communities are enigmas within the greater community. You can't just look from the outside and make judgments like you have with this piece. It's the same as if a non-gamer looks at an MMO game and makes comments about "why would someone name themselves BigBadSockMeatPuppet, why would a club of people call themselves Goonswarm, and what does pwn mean or even sound like?... are you people delusional or in need of psychiatric care?" Those questions sound daft to us, but the outsider clearly doesn't understand and therefore dismisses the community.
Imagine the outrage from PvP'ers if someone wrote an article discounting PvP servers. Replace every instance of the word "roleplay" in your article with "PvP." If you think the roleplayers are "rioting," imagine how the PvP'ers would respond.
Please more carefully consider your article content in the future. Content such as this damages the generally decent body of work presented by the website.
This post is very close to violating MMORPG's "Trolling, Baiting and Flaming" rules in the CoC. If it were some random poster, I would shrug it off, but I expect better from a representative of MMORPG.Com.
I do not RP online, though I do find RP servers to have much more friendly crowds for the most part. I have played PnP games for 3 decades, and I have many friends who RP online (non-game based) and those who cosplay at conventions.
The only time I have heard Shakespearian English is at a Rennaisance Faire.
Essentially, Dana got it wrong, which would be ok, but it is the tone of contempt and the condescending attitude this article did not need.
I Ussualy like to observe the trolls but i`ll bite this time and feed one
However I`m obviously late , all counterarguments are allready posted , all points are made...so I`ll just add one more thing
You mentioned EvE....are you by any chanche still playing? If so it would be my sacred duty as Amarr to purge filth as yourself from the New eden for good !
oh and QFT`in some previous poster...RP servers are definately worth money , even twice the normal fee if it means people like you dont play there
I definitely got a reaction out of you all ..../... The goal of this is to incite debate not riots.
Well Dana, reading your article and even before your answer I was thinking this thread was purposely made to make people log in and post; in extension increase the hits on the web site and so the ranking and ads displayed.
So in short it's okay to publish anything as long as it brings money to the web site.
This is not anymore the MMORPG web site I was used to interact with.
Talked in orcish, made your characters orcs or look like orcs, acting like orcs as much as the game allowed you too.
Only really worked in Ultima Online on the Siege Perilous shard because it was FFA PvP and the graphics were 2D and gear didn't matter, so you could wear an Orc mask or Orc Helm 100% of the time.
You'd get clubbed by the bosses for acting up or being stupid, we'd act like villianous orcs who loved nothing more then fighting and clubbing stuff...
Modern games these days just don't give you the freedom to do that kind of stuff.
Now they say, ok, you want to be an orc? Here are the classes you can choose, here is what you can and can't wear, here is where you can and can't go, and this is a list of things you can do, pick one.
This isn't an article, it's a thinly veiled verbal assault against a certian playstyle. Articles are not supposed to take sides or state the writer's opinions as if they were truth. I mean seriously Dana, you don't even TRY to disguise it as an article, the freakin' NAME is 'The Myth of Role-Playing Servers'. The title of the rant is basically trying to quote itself for truth. Even when you admit that there may be an exception to the rule, you immediatley discredit yourself afterwards on purpose in order to try to prove your point on several occasions. Exaggerated Example: "I realise that there may be decent rp'ers out there but they are so few and far-between that they're hardly worth mentioning." That kind of writing is bullshit. It doesn't matter if the article is The Myth of Role-Playing Servers or the The Joy of Role-Playing servers if all you do is ramble on about your personal opinion and use writing trick to sound subjective and informed when you're really not. I'm sure if the article was "Are Role-Playing Servers a Myth?" and allowed both sides of the issue equal time and consideration, and maybe if you did a little bit of research into the subject instead of relying on your own speculation it would have been much better. In short, MMORPG.com should not be treated like a refrigerator door for the journalists to stick any half-assed thought on for all the world to see. This kind of journalism reflects badly on you, and in turn the website your writing represents.
I'm not speaking about the content of the article on way or another, but I WOULD like to point out that this was an OPINION piece. Disagree with the opinion, sure, but you're dressing it down because it IS an opinion.... which is the point of each of the five featured columns every week.
The issue we're taking here is that even if it is an OPINION piece it's still trolling. If JoBlo had posted it on the forums he'd probably have been moderated and gotten a warning.
As far as opinions go, mine is that Dana should concentrate on working with his bellyup MMOs and leave the armchair psychology to those of us who aren't busy creating subpar examples of the MMO genre.
I definitely got a reaction out of you all ..../... The goal of this is to incite debate not riots.
Well Dana, reading your article and even before your answer I was thinking this thread was purposely made to make people log in and post; in extension increase the hits on the web site and so the ranking and ads displayed.
So in short it's okay to publish anything as long as it brings money to the web site.
This is not anymore the MMORPG web site I was used to interact with.
They need to rename the site www.mmog.com
After this thread runs cold I'm done with the site. It's not a
protest or anything, but if that's the attitude here, I'll find a
site that cares about a games rp enviroment instead of a site
that handles mmorpgs like fps games.
Sorry, just sick of kids all hoping on mmorpgs now acting like
the genre is new and fresh trying to claim it, pulling from under
the roleplayers feet. All mmorpgs really are is old muds, mushes,
tabletop games, roleplay forums, and the such with a graphics
engine.
So to those that are thinking WoW is fresh and new:
Want to pretend you're a power-gamer and act like some 'uber
gamer' showing off your 'epics' but you can't spell at a fourth grade
level? ....
Then stick to games that don't use a mouse and keyboard.
I understand that journalism has some element of opinion, but this article was so far out in left field that it was funny. I have played on several RP servers and in several RP guilds. Most of the time, when we were with each other we stuck to RPing. However, when non RP players were in the mix, then we sometimes RPed sometimes didn't out of respect for the folks who didn't want too.
If you want to RP, then there are plenty of guilds to choose from in nearly any game. Most of them are fairly decent and offer better story and interaction than you get from the developer content. Is it perfect? No. However, it's usually much more interesting than kill 20 bears.
If you don't like RPing, that's fine. No one is forcing you to do so. Heck most companies only have one or two servers dedicated to RPing, so it's certainly easy enough to avoid. I can see why you think that there is no RPing going on. With that attitude, I wouldn't bother trying with you and would let you go about your way to play with folks with much more of an open mind.
This article expresses a very post mcwow perspective on the online gaming world and how watered down it has become. If you had done this as a comparison article to what roleplaying was like before and after the wow puppet kids were born to the mmo market, you probably would have satisfied more readers here. Some things you say are sadly becoming true, but its strongly worth noting that there were better times a few years ago, and good times can still be had, but you have to look alot harder to find like minded players who care more about living in the world and value the experience as an escape and dont want to see the numbers or base their self worth on phantom digital trophies.
There is still a market out there for those who want a strongly policed RPG or die gaming environment open to the market, and they are older, more economically sound, and willing to pay alot more per month to play this type of game. Your article should be asking this: with rpg servers run now being mostly useless, will not some company come forward and own this niche?
WOW, I feel like I'm watching Fox News. That article was made to do nothing more than generate a response and get ratings, much like all the "stories" on Fox. It was an obvious plight, but obviously worked, as here I am posting hehe. I have never been into the RP thing, but I'm glad its there for those who want it. I'd try to make counter points about the article, but it was so purposely swayed I don't feel I need to out point it to discredit it. There was a line about people going to RP servers knowing players there would grief them, thus giving them a reason to cry about something. I think that the author may have confused RPers with EMOs. Emos are the ones who do things like wear bad cloths, just to cry about having bad cloths, not RPers. RPer are more like the HULK, they just want to be left alone.
I think you meant CNN
Get it right when you talk about trolling....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
on a more serious note , this must mean that it`s worth screwing the credibility of this site for a few dozen thread pages?
hmm...if i think about it i should not only be offended as a RP`er but as a constant reader of this site for the last 2 years , this article is a "frack you guys you`re just click generators" kind of message isn`t it?
this discussion is hilarious and proves much of what Dana has stated.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion and is free to shout it at the world. Freedom of speech ftw! Dana knew this article would be a hot spot.. still he posted it, that takes some courage!
this discussion is hilarious and proves much of what Dana has stated.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion and is free to shout it at the world. Freedom of speech ftw! Dana knew this article would be a hot spot.. still he posted it, that takes some courage!
Sweet! I have this article I wrote about how all people on pvp servers are little spoiled brats.
I'll post it so I have some courage too!
See, opinions are subjective. He has the right to think what he does, and
I have the right to think that he's wrong. There's nothing courageous about
this. He basically says that rp servers, servers very much appreciate, are
worthless. So I say this article is worthless, cause rp servers do have good
roleplayers on them, and he doesn't know what he's talking about.
nope , free speach is free within certain limits , and journalism has it`s ...err...rules that make it different from general trolling
if this would have been a simple forum thread i`d have laughed and moved on , there are thousands and thousands of trolls on this site
but this is an article...there is a huge difference . For all intents and purposes this piece of trash was published by MMORPG.com and reflects on MMORPG.com .
This pathetic excuse for a writer can have his opinions , everyone has one...you know...opinions. But what diferentiates a journalist from someone like me (except english skills) is how he presents that opinion . If he wants to be taken seriously on any degree he must present it based on some facts , research...or simply state that it`s all in his head like the case here
See I`m no jurnalist and i dont post official articles on this site , so i can affoard to be a troll right now and call out this piece of trash and the whining kid that wrote it , this does in no way reflect on MMORPG.com ...it`s just my opinion
But he did the same thing i did here : Hurl insults and naked assertions ....and from where i stand right now , the first thing I notice is that this is an ARTICLE on MMORPG.co , and then that it`s written by some guy with a girl`s name (Dana ftw! everyone in my hood loves a certain Dana...well...sometimes even 2 or 3 at once) .In a matter of speaking it`s MMORPG`s opinion , expressed with no base on any facts and research ...and with clear disdain , directed as a clear insult
See....forum trolls can be ignored...oh...so can be sites
disclaimer : I never post trash on forums , i try to stay civil even if i`m having an argument , but this article clearly deserves this....and if mods delete my post they would better delete the article aswell for the same reason
I inserted a poll on my previous post on this topic, asking how many folks would pay 2x as much for a game and 3x the monthly subscription fee for a game that entailed better story (and presumably with better story, better RP potential).
So far nearly 90% answered unqualified yes (over half), or that it would depend on the game/developer.
Personally, I would be ecstatic to be able to pay a higher monthly fee for a more immersive environment in gaming, more GMs, better attention to story, and so on.
I think LOTRO and Eve are probably the closest to this on the market now, and sw:tor upcoming. LOTRO did it on the basis of the license for the root IP of all RPG games, and Eve did it because...well, because they're from Iceland and could think small and intelligent at the same time, I suspect!
C'mon guys -- people are paying over $100 for a DVD set of one season of a TV show. The market for a $120 game with a $30-50 sub fee is out there. You won't get most teenagers, slackabouts, and people downside of the digital divide (the last of which I actually am sorry for) -- but you would be recognizing the maturity of the gaming market as an adult passtime pursued by people who don't live in their mom's basements, tyvm.
But will future companies consider creating financially-gated communities for advanced, mature, RPing gamers, where each sub counts as *greater than* three current subs?
I say *more* than three because people involved in community and RP tend to ride out a game longer than do people who are shooting for level cap, then jump.
I can't wait until this market matures, so we get past the movie-like "big studio" stage and indie games have a better economic chance. Until then, there's little hope for anyone who isn't just trying to out-bliz Blizzard's WOW, trying to make the money-pitch for development, and that's sad for all of us, even the non-RPers.
Gonna have to disagree with the number Torscee pu tup for men and women playing different server types,
Sure it looks reliable, but seriously any satistic saying women play more than men on PvE server (the most populated servers in the game.) seems to be a bit on the false side. This could be just from a statisic value in which they take a small sampling of players and try to use those numbers to show the rest of the server population, but MMOs work against statistics since the only real numbers come from those that stick with the game rather than pick it up play for a week and then drop it.
What a great article, and i have to agree with you the best game to RP in is EVE . However the responce have been very interesting and sometimes funny to read. Every one takes all the shit to seriously.
I inserted a poll on my previous post on this topic, asking how many folks would pay 2x as much for a game and 3x the monthly subscription fee for a game that entailed better story (and presumably with better story, better RP potential). So far nearly 90% answered unqualified yes (over half), or that it would depend on the game/developer. Personally, I would be ecstatic to be able to pay a higher monthly fee for a more immersive environment in gaming, more GMs, better attention to story, and so on. I think LOTRO and Eve are probably the closest to this on the market now, and sw:tor upcoming. LOTRO did it on the basis of the license for the root IP of all RPG games, and Eve did it because...well, because they're from Iceland and could think small and intelligent at the same time, I suspect! C'mon guys -- people are paying over $100 for a DVD set of one season of a TV show. The market for a $120 game with a $30-50 sub fee is out there. You won't get most teenagers, slackabouts, and people downside of the digital divide (the last of which I actually am sorry for) -- but you would be recognizing the maturity of the gaming market as an adult passtime pursued by people who don't live in their mom's basements, tyvm. But will future companies consider creating financially-gated communities for advanced, mature, RPing gamers, where each sub counts as *greater than* three current subs? I say *more* than three because people involved in community and RP tend to ride out a game longer than do people who are shooting for level cap, then jump. I can't wait until this market matures, so we get past the movie-like "big studio" stage and indie games have a better economic chance. Until then, there's little hope for anyone who isn't just trying to out-bliz Blizzard's WOW, trying to make the money-pitch for development, and that's sad for all of us, even the non-RPers. Shava
Go make it and ill sign up.
1. roleplay strictly enforced by gm team aided by filters.
2. adult content in context of gameplay, make the ratings mark require 18+ only
3. no 'global' chat channels, only local. in game voice chat only broadcasts to your vicinity
4. no damage info or parsing
5. loaded with emotes, housing, crafting, player cities, vehicles with travel times, marriage/soul bonding benefits, animal as pets player races and death penalties that mean something(???!@!!!?)
some benefits to the company:
1. lower playerbase with much higher revenue per player
2. loyal playerbase with generally mature attitudes toward issue resolution
3. lower server/hardware requirements for hosting.
4. less demand for constant class balancing and rebalancing and rebalancing
5. more focus on sandbox and utility allows the company to be more innovative and explore the limits of mmorpg possibilities.
1. This article alone has completely changed my perception of what a mmorpg is in general. Instead of seperating the play styles and social interactions i would get out of my fps,action,sports video games, i should expect more of the same mmorpg and not a different social experience i would get from a Rpg/table top game.
2. The great thing about free speech is you can say how much something sucks without backing it up.
Comments
My only question is how come I can report you but I can't block you?
I was just thinking it would be a nice feature, if we can click on an article like this and say "Block" and then any more articles from this person (including this one) are blocked.
It is not that I can't handle a different opinion than mine. I just want a way once I figure out someone is an idiot not to accidentally read their articles again.
He got some sort of caricture drawing of himself on the main page along with other writers, so I think (unfortunately) he will be permitted to continue with this nonsense.
It kind of infuriates me, because his logic is so backwards. You could do madlibs by inserting anything in the blanks into his critique (Example, I use Churches, but you could put restaurants, RP servers, dog shows, whatever.)
Dana Massey Article Mad-Lib Generator
Look Gais, its simple, people who go to Churches don't do it for to be with other like minded people who share the same interests. They do it because they are socially inept, broken elitists who enjoy it when someone like Me shows up and tells them how stupid they all are, so they can feel like victims and rail against me. You see if you rail against this article, you must really be enjoying it and so I feel I am helping you in some way by completely mischaracterizing your reasons and fufilling your true wish of being irritated.
Going to Churches is a myth. They are really win-win. The people who go their to ruin someone elses experience get to have fun, and naturally I believe that you go there to have your fun ruined, so that must be enjoyable to you. Derp, Derp, Derp....I have a caricture on the main page, so someone will take me seriously. Derp, Derp.
<insert charicture pic of squinty-eyed elitist author here>
The way I see this whole article is very similar to politics. It would almost be as if a columnist on a website reported to telling the news exactly like it is suddenly started writing columns about how horrible liberals were. He didn't say it to start a debate or a discussion, he said it because he enjoyed putting the whole RP community down. The entire article's tone was that of smug superiority, someone who is 'better' looking down upon those who are 'worse'. In any case, Dana has /obviously/ never RPed with anyone worth RPing with. I don't doubt that his only experience was on WoW, where the RP, like every other aspect of the community, tends to be sub-par. I dare him to spend a week or so free of his cynical outlook playing Lord of the Rings Online on Landroval, watching and studing the RPers there, to see just how mature and complex real RP can be.
Thank you, Dana!
Immersion talk always annoys me. I can suspend disbelief as well as the next guy, but unless I'm on stage or doing something with friends IRL (including tabletop), the keyboard and monitor keep me separated from my characters and their worlds.
The keyboard and monitor are no more or less a conduit for the imagination than the pencil, paper and dice. I don't see how manipulating your character via keyboard and monitor "separates" one more so than manipulating data on a sheet with a pencil. You talk to people across the table, with the prevalence of free voice chat software you could do the same. Both instances of verbal communication would likely be with people you know (I know I don't randomly give out Ventrilo server info).
But, if that's your barrier, it's a shame. If anything, being able to have a visual representation of the world and its contents adds to any talk of immersion. *shrug*
I have to go with what what Khalathwyr says.
Themilton: though I can appreciate that you have a preferred method that incites your imagniation, ie being with friends around a table top, I fail to see why you find it so beyond the pale that one can sit in front of a screen and still be able to make a similar leap of the imagination.
I mean, really... around a table top, with pencils, screens, your friend's mugs gleaming in the pale light while scarfing down potatoe chips or pizza or whatever is the food of choice, constantly refilling your soda or beer or drink of the night.
Why is that any more imagination inducing then sittng at a screen, lights dimmed in a similar fashion with the images acting as a backdrop to what is going on?
The only reason it is is because that's how you work. I think that's fine. But if someoone can lose themselves in a video game because their imagination allows them to break that barrier then I say good for them.
There is no one book on how one can use their imagination to the fullest extent. And if there is then please point me to it because it's very possible that I'm missing out.
I know that my days of pen and paper D&D play were a lot of fun and I suppose the images that I conjured up in my head were all the more powerful because they were mine, but I can't say I felt any more immersed than a game. If anything, I've found that game images (for me) can be more powerful in that I allow myself to be engrossed not in creating the scene but losing myself in the moment.
it's one of the reasons (and yes... I admit this) that playing games like doom III or Left4Dead or the demo of F.E.A.R actually sort of freak me out.
When in that F.E.A.R. demo I looked down a dark stair into the dim light and saw that little girl scurry from one side of the room into the shadows on the other side, I just turned it off.
To catagorically say that one person can't achieve a level of release as powerful as another's because one can't comprehend how they can just doesn't work for me.
I mean, we are not wired the same. So if someone tells me that they can achieve great immersion by blasting led zeppelin, wearing their mother's bathrobe and sitting on a chair of nails then I have no choice to believe them until such time as they are taken away by the state.
After reading all this, I guess I'll chime in.
Playing the game is different for everyone! Even RP is different.
Some people (like myself) see it as story writing. Unlike what Dana said, The
fiction is made by the players. Story-lines between characters and the such. Also
some people may get very invested and immersed in their character.
But you can't say, just cause 'you' don't immersed that it's all bull@#$.
It would be like me saying, "If you aren't role-playing, then you shouldn't play an mmo."
I have no right to tell you how to play, just like you have no right to tell others.
Unless they are just there to annoy and grief other players, which makes them
total jerks. Role-play is a massive part about rpgs and mmorpgs, and there's a reason
most mmo's have rp servers.
If you like it don't do it, otherwise why give rp'ers a hard time unless you're just that way.
I have to say that that is me. Unless I'm going to go to a game with friends, I just find the nearest RP server and that's where I make my character.
I have no issues beign surrounded by players who want to role play and I get a more interesting and dare I say "more immersive" experience.
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If this "opinion" article had been posted on the forums, it would likely have been locked by a mod. There is a difference between an opinion piece and a rant. This article is clearly a rant.
Dana, roleplay servers and their communities are enigmas within the greater community. You can't just look from the outside and make judgments like you have with this piece. It's the same as if a non-gamer looks at an MMO game and makes comments about "why would someone name themselves BigBadSockMeatPuppet, why would a club of people call themselves Goonswarm, and what does pwn mean or even sound like?... are you people delusional or in need of psychiatric care?" Those questions sound daft to us, but the outsider clearly doesn't understand and therefore dismisses the community.
Imagine the outrage from PvP'ers if someone wrote an article discounting PvP servers. Replace every instance of the word "roleplay" in your article with "PvP." If you think the roleplayers are "rioting," imagine how the PvP'ers would respond.
Please more carefully consider your article content in the future. Content such as this damages the generally decent body of work presented by the website.
Pure opinion and pure shit.
Dana has pretty much lost my respect.
This post is very close to violating MMORPG's "Trolling, Baiting and Flaming" rules in the CoC. If it were some random poster, I would shrug it off, but I expect better from a representative of MMORPG.Com.
I do not RP online, though I do find RP servers to have much more friendly crowds for the most part. I have played PnP games for 3 decades, and I have many friends who RP online (non-game based) and those who cosplay at conventions.
The only time I have heard Shakespearian English is at a Rennaisance Faire.
Essentially, Dana got it wrong, which would be ok, but it is the tone of contempt and the condescending attitude this article did not need.
Here goes new account just for this
I Ussualy like to observe the trolls but i`ll bite this time and feed one
However I`m obviously late , all counterarguments are allready posted , all points are made...so I`ll just add one more thing
You mentioned EvE....are you by any chanche still playing? If so it would be my sacred duty as Amarr to purge filth as yourself from the New eden for good !
oh and QFT`in some previous poster...RP servers are definately worth money , even twice the normal fee if it means people like you dont play there
Well Dana, reading your article and even before your answer I was thinking this thread was purposely made to make people log in and post; in extension increase the hits on the web site and so the ranking and ads displayed.
So in short it's okay to publish anything as long as it brings money to the web site.
This is not anymore the MMORPG web site I was used to interact with.
Used to play in an Orc guild.
Talked in orcish, made your characters orcs or look like orcs, acting like orcs as much as the game allowed you too.
Only really worked in Ultima Online on the Siege Perilous shard because it was FFA PvP and the graphics were 2D and gear didn't matter, so you could wear an Orc mask or Orc Helm 100% of the time.
You'd get clubbed by the bosses for acting up or being stupid, we'd act like villianous orcs who loved nothing more then fighting and clubbing stuff...
Modern games these days just don't give you the freedom to do that kind of stuff.
Now they say, ok, you want to be an orc? Here are the classes you can choose, here is what you can and can't wear, here is where you can and can't go, and this is a list of things you can do, pick one.
No room for imagination really anymore. It's sad.
The issue we're taking here is that even if it is an OPINION piece it's still trolling. If JoBlo had posted it on the forums he'd probably have been moderated and gotten a warning.
As far as opinions go, mine is that Dana should concentrate on working with his bellyup MMOs and leave the armchair psychology to those of us who aren't busy creating subpar examples of the MMO genre.
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Well Dana, reading your article and even before your answer I was thinking this thread was purposely made to make people log in and post; in extension increase the hits on the web site and so the ranking and ads displayed.
So in short it's okay to publish anything as long as it brings money to the web site.
This is not anymore the MMORPG web site I was used to interact with.
They need to rename the site www.mmog.com
After this thread runs cold I'm done with the site. It's not a
protest or anything, but if that's the attitude here, I'll find a
site that cares about a games rp enviroment instead of a site
that handles mmorpgs like fps games.
Sorry, just sick of kids all hoping on mmorpgs now acting like
the genre is new and fresh trying to claim it, pulling from under
the roleplayers feet. All mmorpgs really are is old muds, mushes,
tabletop games, roleplay forums, and the such with a graphics
engine.
So to those that are thinking WoW is fresh and new:
Want to pretend you're a power-gamer and act like some 'uber
gamer' showing off your 'epics' but you can't spell at a fourth grade
level? ....
Then stick to games that don't use a mouse and keyboard.
Indeed. Would be interesting to hear an explanation as to why this is journalism as opposed to trolling.
I understand that journalism has some element of opinion, but this article was so far out in left field that it was funny. I have played on several RP servers and in several RP guilds. Most of the time, when we were with each other we stuck to RPing. However, when non RP players were in the mix, then we sometimes RPed sometimes didn't out of respect for the folks who didn't want too.
If you want to RP, then there are plenty of guilds to choose from in nearly any game. Most of them are fairly decent and offer better story and interaction than you get from the developer content. Is it perfect? No. However, it's usually much more interesting than kill 20 bears.
If you don't like RPing, that's fine. No one is forcing you to do so. Heck most companies only have one or two servers dedicated to RPing, so it's certainly easy enough to avoid. I can see why you think that there is no RPing going on. With that attitude, I wouldn't bother trying with you and would let you go about your way to play with folks with much more of an open mind.
This article expresses a very post mcwow perspective on the online gaming world and how watered down it has become. If you had done this as a comparison article to what roleplaying was like before and after the wow puppet kids were born to the mmo market, you probably would have satisfied more readers here. Some things you say are sadly becoming true, but its strongly worth noting that there were better times a few years ago, and good times can still be had, but you have to look alot harder to find like minded players who care more about living in the world and value the experience as an escape and dont want to see the numbers or base their self worth on phantom digital trophies.
There is still a market out there for those who want a strongly policed RPG or die gaming environment open to the market, and they are older, more economically sound, and willing to pay alot more per month to play this type of game. Your article should be asking this: with rpg servers run now being mostly useless, will not some company come forward and own this niche?
I think you meant CNN
Get it right when you talk about trolling....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
on a more serious note , this must mean that it`s worth screwing the credibility of this site for a few dozen thread pages?
hmm...if i think about it i should not only be offended as a RP`er but as a constant reader of this site for the last 2 years , this article is a "frack you guys you`re just click generators" kind of message isn`t it?
this discussion is hilarious and proves much of what Dana has stated.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion and is free to shout it at the world. Freedom of speech ftw! Dana knew this article would be a hot spot.. still he posted it, that takes some courage!
Sweet! I have this article I wrote about how all people on pvp servers are little spoiled brats.
I'll post it so I have some courage too!
See, opinions are subjective. He has the right to think what he does, and
I have the right to think that he's wrong. There's nothing courageous about
this. He basically says that rp servers, servers very much appreciate, are
worthless. So I say this article is worthless, cause rp servers do have good
roleplayers on them, and he doesn't know what he's talking about.
nope , free speach is free within certain limits , and journalism has it`s ...err...rules that make it different from general trolling
if this would have been a simple forum thread i`d have laughed and moved on , there are thousands and thousands of trolls on this site
but this is an article...there is a huge difference . For all intents and purposes this piece of trash was published by MMORPG.com and reflects on MMORPG.com .
This pathetic excuse for a writer can have his opinions , everyone has one...you know...opinions. But what diferentiates a journalist from someone like me (except english skills) is how he presents that opinion . If he wants to be taken seriously on any degree he must present it based on some facts , research...or simply state that it`s all in his head like the case here
See I`m no jurnalist and i dont post official articles on this site , so i can affoard to be a troll right now and call out this piece of trash and the whining kid that wrote it , this does in no way reflect on MMORPG.com ...it`s just my opinion
But he did the same thing i did here : Hurl insults and naked assertions ....and from where i stand right now , the first thing I notice is that this is an ARTICLE on MMORPG.co , and then that it`s written by some guy with a girl`s name (Dana ftw! everyone in my hood loves a certain Dana...well...sometimes even 2 or 3 at once) .In a matter of speaking it`s MMORPG`s opinion , expressed with no base on any facts and research ...and with clear disdain , directed as a clear insult
See....forum trolls can be ignored...oh...so can be sites
disclaimer : I never post trash on forums , i try to stay civil even if i`m having an argument , but this article clearly deserves this....and if mods delete my post they would better delete the article aswell for the same reason
I inserted a poll on my previous post on this topic, asking how many folks would pay 2x as much for a game and 3x the monthly subscription fee for a game that entailed better story (and presumably with better story, better RP potential).
So far nearly 90% answered unqualified yes (over half), or that it would depend on the game/developer.
Personally, I would be ecstatic to be able to pay a higher monthly fee for a more immersive environment in gaming, more GMs, better attention to story, and so on.
I think LOTRO and Eve are probably the closest to this on the market now, and sw:tor upcoming. LOTRO did it on the basis of the license for the root IP of all RPG games, and Eve did it because...well, because they're from Iceland and could think small and intelligent at the same time, I suspect!
C'mon guys -- people are paying over $100 for a DVD set of one season of a TV show. The market for a $120 game with a $30-50 sub fee is out there. You won't get most teenagers, slackabouts, and people downside of the digital divide (the last of which I actually am sorry for) -- but you would be recognizing the maturity of the gaming market as an adult passtime pursued by people who don't live in their mom's basements, tyvm.
But will future companies consider creating financially-gated communities for advanced, mature, RPing gamers, where each sub counts as *greater than* three current subs?
I say *more* than three because people involved in community and RP tend to ride out a game longer than do people who are shooting for level cap, then jump.
I can't wait until this market matures, so we get past the movie-like "big studio" stage and indie games have a better economic chance. Until then, there's little hope for anyone who isn't just trying to out-bliz Blizzard's WOW, trying to make the money-pitch for development, and that's sad for all of us, even the non-RPers.
Shava
Gonna have to disagree with the number Torscee pu tup for men and women playing different server types,
Sure it looks reliable, but seriously any satistic saying women play more than men on PvE server (the most populated servers in the game.) seems to be a bit on the false side. This could be just from a statisic value in which they take a small sampling of players and try to use those numbers to show the rest of the server population, but MMOs work against statistics since the only real numbers come from those that stick with the game rather than pick it up play for a week and then drop it.
Hey Hey
What a great article, and i have to agree with you the best game to RP in is EVE . However the responce have been very interesting and sometimes funny to read. Every one takes all the shit to seriously.
Welcome Home
Rev
Go make it and ill sign up.
1. roleplay strictly enforced by gm team aided by filters.
2. adult content in context of gameplay, make the ratings mark require 18+ only
3. no 'global' chat channels, only local. in game voice chat only broadcasts to your vicinity
4. no damage info or parsing
5. loaded with emotes, housing, crafting, player cities, vehicles with travel times, marriage/soul bonding benefits, animal as pets player races and death penalties that mean something(???!@!!!?)
some benefits to the company:
1. lower playerbase with much higher revenue per player
2. loyal playerbase with generally mature attitudes toward issue resolution
3. lower server/hardware requirements for hosting.
4. less demand for constant class balancing and rebalancing and rebalancing
5. more focus on sandbox and utility allows the company to be more innovative and explore the limits of mmorpg possibilities.
Two Comments:
1. This article alone has completely changed my perception of what a mmorpg is in general. Instead of seperating the play styles and social interactions i would get out of my fps,action,sports video games, i should expect more of the same mmorpg and not a different social experience i would get from a Rpg/table top game.
2. The great thing about free speech is you can say how much something sucks without backing it up.